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Messages - 17 November

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Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: South Africa
« on: June 04, 2018, 07:59:59 PM »
A characteristically outspoken report by Christopher Hitchens from the days when he wrote from a left perspective against religious corruption:

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: South Africa
« on: June 04, 2018, 07:55:42 PM »
I, myself, have never been to Tibet so I cannot speak with firsthand knowledge, as you seem to.  I have, however, met many Tibetan people.  This was several years ago while in India.  Not a single one of them, especially the older ones, agreed with your assessment.
They did talk about people sent to slave labor camps and about ethnic tibetans were considered "mentally ill" by the Chinese and so were not allowed to have children.
But no one said communism made it better.
The Tibetan community who departed to India in 1959 are the elite who exploited the country. I would expect them to have a negative opinion of communism which disenthroned them. It’s very prejudiced.

Why don’t you ask Tibetans who actually live with communism what they think of it?
A French writer named Máxime Vivas did just that and wrote a book about it:
‘Behind the Smile’

Flat Earth Believers / Re: Favorite Youtube Flat Earthers
« on: June 04, 2018, 07:15:15 PM »
I asked Darryle Marble if he has come across any flat earth believers who follow the early Christian model such as Cosmas Indicopleustes, and he replied negatively. He has not.

This confirms to me that what is being promoted is not a biblically or Christian based world. It more closely resembles the Flat Earth world of the Vedic religions.

Perhaps Zen Garcia or Rob Skiba come closest to the ancient Christian model than anyone I’ve seen so far because of their interest in the book of Enoch, but I am not aware of interest by even them in Cosmas Indicopleustes.

The YouTube movement brought a quantity of people in to the movement - at least temporarily, but quality of belief is another matter.

Flat Earth Believers / Re: Favorite Youtube Flat Earthers
« on: June 04, 2018, 07:02:42 PM »
I like this guys channel on youtube, "conspiracy music guru"


I probably follow Darryle Marble as much as anyone because he emphasised the basics which I do agree with.

I’m personal friends with him and met him on several occasions being in the Pacific Northwest.

I’m friends with Mark Sargent who is a very decent guy and find his Flat Earth book useful for the same reason, but I don’t at all concur with his conspiracy ridden views of current events which in fact characterises much of the Flat Earth YouTube community to its detriment.

This conspiracy ridden view of life is a great handicap that signifies the ugly american character of the vast popularity of Flat Earthism since 2014. Comparable to evangelicalism, its parochial views severely limit the movement’s potential both for understanding deeper perspectives and reaching a more receptive world.

I’ve been severely critical of this forum in the past, but (to its credit) its ratio of leftists and engagers of radical thought is higher than those in the YouTube movement.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: May 07, 2018, 08:49:25 PM »
Pretty much any field guide/informational book about birds. I've forgotten a lot of my bird knowledge over the winter. My favorite field guide is the fifth edition of National Geographic's
Field Guide to the Birds of North America.

Possibly you’d find ‘Thunderbirds’ by Mark Hall interesting:

Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: April 27, 2018, 10:22:35 AM »
I’ve been looking for books about Germany history from a communist perspective and hit the jackpot this week.

‘Racism and Human Survival:
Lessons From Nazi Germany’
By Claude Lightfoot
(an African-American communist)

‘Honecker Cross-Examined’
By Erich Honecker

Interviews of the final leader of East Germany who built the Berlin Wall and to whom the Stasi answered. He delivers impressive answers to serious questions and accusations.

I also came across a similar set of interviews his wife later gave to a Chilean communist leader. I have to say I was proud of her to read her views - and accordingly think of the American perspective as largely unquestioned rubbish.

The Lounge / Re: Movies You're Looking Forward To
« on: April 21, 2018, 05:20:17 PM »
Those finding the original too long might watch the animated version released during the war, ‘Confessions of a Nutzy Spy’:

The Lounge / Re: Movies You're Looking Forward To
« on: April 21, 2018, 05:17:09 PM »
Intending to watch ‘Confessions of a Nazi Spy’ (early 1939) this week starring Edward G. Robinson as the investigator.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: South Africa
« on: April 21, 2018, 12:05:43 PM »
A few analogies: 
In good ways, Zimbabwe and South Africa seem analogous to Cuba and Venezuela.

South Africa’s land redistribution strikes me as a fulfilment of Union General Sherman’s 1865 unfulfilled  promise of 40 acres and a mule to the former slaves and poor whites in the southern US with the seized property of planatation owners and big businesses which was effectively delivered by Lenin to the poor Russians after 1917.

The small angry group of expunged white former landowners and exploiters bring to mind the Dalai Lama and his corrupt retinue waging a failed PR against the fabricated evils of communism when in reality pre-Communist Tibet was an unspeakable fascist horror that communism has vastly improved.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: South Africa
« on: March 26, 2018, 08:15:11 AM »
I’d like to say I just got the book ‘We Want What’s Ours’, and it’s refreshing to hear a voice that doesn’t denigrate free post-apartheid South Africa.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: March 20, 2018, 09:19:30 PM »
Woody Holton also has a book entitled Forced Founders which complements Gerald Horne’s book. I’ve bought a couple of other of Woody’s books which are inferior to this one.

Gerald Horne himself wrote a continuation of his book into the early nineteenth century entitled Negro Comrades of the Crown showing how black loyalists eagerly assisted the British to burn down the White House circa 1812 - among many other interesting things. Pretty much all of Gerald Horne’s books are good.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: March 20, 2018, 09:07:31 PM »
This is a criticism of the book that came up in Wikipedia.  But this is a very minor part of the story.  It has to do with Ernst Rohm.  The point he was trying to make was that Hitler was willing to overlook all kinds of criminal/unethical behavior if it could earn him support.  Shirer lumped in homosexuality with immoral behavior.  He did seem to have a negative opinion of it but its about what you would expect from someone of that generation.

I actually picked up a 1960 edition recently, and it’s bulky: World War II’s answer to Tolstoy’s War & Peace. I scanned it and didn’t see what I was looking for at a glance. The story of SA leader Ernst Roehm is well known. I had wondered if it had any info on the other leaders.

Samuel Igra’s book has it that when the nineteenth century founder of the German homosexual movement died around the turn of the century, the movement split into two: a Spartan like group and an effeminate group, and the two groups became enemies. According to Igra, Roehm belonged to the effeminate group who thought they were women in men’s bodies whereas Hitler, Hess, etc belonged to the Spartan group. The 1934 suppression of SA leaders was a conflict of one homosexual group against another according to Igra.

The conversations of Rauschning published in 1940 rather support this as well as a book published about 2001 entitled the Hidden Hitler which exhaustively researched evidence that Hitler himself was homosexual.

The reason for my more extensive interest here is the same as with many nonconformist positions which are inconvenient to political correctness. The establishment position seems to want to resist evidence that points in a different direction than what the media consistently touts.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: March 20, 2018, 01:17:58 PM »
‘Sundown Towns’
By James Loewen

The  author (who also wrote ‘Lies My Teacher Told Me’) at a bookstore in Washington, DC describes this book which argues that beginning about 1890, the majority of incorporated localities (towns, cities, counties, etc) across the entire USA (outside the traditional South) excluded black people for many decades, and many still do to this day:

Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: March 20, 2018, 01:10:05 PM »
Well I finally finished reading Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.  Learned quite a bit.  To much to talk about in a single post.

Next book, anybody know a good book that covers either the french revolution of the American revolution?

I’ve been getting books by Soviet Marshalls including Chuikov (who was in command at the battles of Stalingrad and Berlin), Rokosovsky (on overall strategy against the USA), Zhukov (led entire Red Army in WW2), and Colonel Sidorenko who authored the ‘Offensive’ which is he Soviet strategy for victory in a world war using weapons of mass destruction.

I thought to balance these with a western writer, and ‘Rise and Fall of the Third Reich’ by William Shirer seems to fit the bill. I can already tell you I agree with his negative assessment of the Lutheran church, and the fact he was a Protestant himself lends to his credibility. He apparently had nerves of steel staying in Germany reporting negatively about the Nazis until 1940 which is after the war was well underway.

Since I have not read it yet, I have one question. I came across a book from 1945 by a German Jew named Samuel Igra entitled ‘Germany’s National Vice’ which gives intriguing historical perspectives about the homosexual movement in Germany including such events as the purge of the SA and arguing that the Nazi leaders were part of it.

I’ve heard William Shirer had a negative view of homosexuality and wrote that the Nazi leaders were involved in this. Did you read anything to that effect?

For a history of the American revolution, check out the ‘Counter Revolution of 1776’ by Gerald Horne which argues it was fought to preserve slavery as Britain legalised slavery in the 1770’s (& throughout the Empire in 1830) & views the USA as preserving the worst of British colonialism which itself was mellowing with age with its abolitionist Movement spearheading nineteenth century socialist legislation.

The book is a history of slaves in British America in the 1700s concluding with the revolution during which the blacks wholly were loyalists in support of Britain which in fact continued to be the case until the American Civil War.

The prolific author is a member of the CPUSA and the final editor of its journal Political Affairs.

An six part interview which discusses the book which decidedly views the American revolution as evil:

Flat Earth Information Repository / Re: Resources: Flat Earth Literature
« on: January 20, 2018, 01:43:27 PM »
I would suggest that Daniel add ‘Plane Truth’ to his online library as it is a history which ties most of these works together and explains biographical information about many of the authors.

‘The Anti-Newtonian’
By an anonymous author (1819)

From the chapter on Rowbotham in Plane Truth, it appears most likely that this booklet and its author were a major source of Samuel Rowbotham’s information and understanding.

Flat Earth Information Repository / Re: Resources: Flat Earth Literature
« on: January 13, 2018, 01:01:28 PM »
‘Plane Truth: A History of the Flat Earth Movement’
By Robert Schadewald

This book is actually much older than Christine Garwood’s book, and she admits that her research was largely based upon Schadewald and includes photographs of Schadewald alongside Charles Johnson with whom he was long time personal friends. Schadewald was also far more sympathetic and contradicts Garwood on many serious issues such as his contention that Flat Earth was the consensus in the early Church.

Christine Garwood is in error asserting that her book is the only history of the modern flat earth movement. By her own admission in the book, her knowledge is largely founded upon the research of Robert Schadewald whose photographs appear in her book alongside his friend Charles Johnson. Schadewald had been writing a far more sympathetic history since the late 1970’s as his Smithsonian article of that time had mentioned. It was unpublished during his lifetime, but his book existed before Garwood’s began.

Furthermore, Schadewald’s book does not contain the many gross errors in Garwood’s book such as the claim that flat earth belief was rare after Pythagoras and in the early Church. This falsification of history is contradicted by most histories of science until the late twentieth century and writers like Jeffrey Burton Russell whom Garwood follows.

Fortunately, Schadewald’s wife and sister got together with some knowledgeable old friends of his and published his history of the modern flat earth movement in 2015. It is a vast improvement and an edifying read to which Garwood’s largely erroneous book might form a supplement:

Flat Earth Believers / Re: Flat Earth model you accept or favor
« on: December 17, 2017, 09:14:13 PM »
I believe the ancient Flat Earth model of described in the Book of Enoch is correct. Strictly speaking, the Earth consists of the Afro-Eurasian landmass. Jerusalem is literally the geographical centre of the earth. Those three continents are the earth surrounded by an outer ocean. North and South America are hyperborea and Atlantis, respectively. These two as well as Australia and Greenland are but islands in the outer ocean which is surrounded by an outer earth on four edges. The four walls of heaven rest on these four edges with a dome on top.

The Book of Enoch was ruled out of the Bible at the Synod of Laodicea in A.D. 378, and I agree with that decision. It is an ancient book that people had corrupted, and the extant copy was not precisely identical with what Enoch himself had originally written. That does not mean the book is not useful or does not contain important knowledge. The Orthodox Church has high standards for what is considered holy scripture and the volume they had failed the test. In my opinion, people who condemn the Church for that reason indicate only their own lack of sagacity.

I like the first century A.D. cosmological tract ascribed to Dionysios the Areopagite as well as the ‘Christian Topography’ by Cosmas Indicipleustes. While I generally follow the model of Cosmas Indicopleustes, I think Rowbotham’s book forms an important supplement. For example, the measurements of the distance of the sun as 700 miles away in Rowbotham’s Book are closer to the truth than Cosmas’s estimate of the sun as roughly a third the size of the earth.

The Lounge / Re: Anyone been accepted to IFERS?
« on: December 17, 2017, 08:19:19 PM »
The flat earth "movement" is not exactly united, is it?

The movement seems to have gained some momentum since about 2015. The newcomers seem somewhat more religious on average compared with the typical forum users of the past decade. I also noticed a lot of the more recent converts got a lot of their knowledge through YouTube and tend to be critical of both and this forum. Fortunately, most of these do not share Eric Dubay’s extremist views either.

I joined DuBay’s site during its first week online and was taken aback when he wondered where I got the statistics for a 700 mile distance of the sun over the earth and realised he had not even read Earth Not a Globe. I bought his book and saw it has no table of contents and consisted of a collage of copy paste from several Flat Earth books which I already owned. I donated it to file 13.

I think the new breed would do well to avoid Dubay. While I share somewhat its revulsion of these forums (but not as strongly), I think folks like the followers of D. Marble and Mark Sargent (both of whom  I know and appreciate) would do well to recognise the library that Daniel Shenton has placed online which by its existence refutes the nonsensical idea that his forum is a disinformation operation. On the contrary, it is an information distribution operation.

I’m holding a flat earth meetup in Salem, Oregon next month and will speak on the history of the Flat Earth movement. I intend to emphasise that aspect of Shenton’s online library.

I knew Robert Schadewald personally in the 1990’s & it’s good to see that his family published his book online which I value over that of Christine Garwood’s whose contribution I view as supplementary and largely based on Schadewald’s research anyway. Nice to see Jeranism recognising the value of Schadewald’s work.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Why do you support donald trump
« on: August 21, 2017, 11:12:14 AM »
Just saw the total eclipse of the sun here in Salem, Oregon. The moon had a thin ring around it for about a minute and a half while the light of the sun was eclipsed.

It seems the sunlight was never eclipsed in the U.S. while Obama was president.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Bing Crosby Predicted Eclipse on the 21st
« on: August 21, 2017, 07:28:38 AM »
I did, and I don't get it, where's the prediction?

Did you click the link which I posted to Free Films ( where you can see this movie?

The scene has a total eclipse of the sun. Bing Crosby is reading a science book and discovers a table of eclipses listed in it shortly before the eclipse occurs.

Arts & Entertainment / Bing Crosby Predicted Eclipse on the 21st
« on: August 20, 2017, 10:40:01 PM »
This 1949 movie has a peculiar scene beginning approximately at the 1 hour, 39 minute mark: 

A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu
May 2017 Speech About His Decision to Implement Legal Rulings to Bring Down Confederate Statues

For the other side of the story, thanks to Glenn Greenwald for bringing us Edward Snowden's story to the world. I've found his articles and books to be informative and non-conformist.

Among others, he wrote for the Nation and cofounded the Intercept.

I believe to say that the protests of Black Lives Matter are mainly about Confederate statues is not accurate. They are especially about people getting killed, particularly black people because they are the recipients of the lion's share of violence.

I personally appreciate gun rights and the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution. To take away that right would be a huge move towards repression of freedom.

 So I was amazed when I learned several years ago that the NRA actually supported the Gun Control Act of 1968 which is the heaviest gun control law in U.S. history and which Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership have demonstrated is derived in large word-for-word sections from the Nazi Germany Gun Control Law of 1938. Why would the NRA support such a law?

I finally discovered the answer from Professor Gerald Horne who shows throughout most of US history black people were not allowed to benefit from much of the bill of rights and were accordingly prohibited from having guns in spite of the U.S. Constitution guaranteeing the right.

When black people finally started to get their rights during the 1960's, this is why the NRA started promoting gun restriction to limit the people who could have guns. So the NRA is an historically racist organisation. Sad to say, but it's true.

I think bringing down Confederate statues is long since a great idea.  The popularity of the statues' defenders is a good indication of ignorance and racism.

Over the past year I've collected several down to earth practical books issued by the ACLU describing in depth the legal rights of various groups of citizens. This particular subject brings to mind one of these books entitled 'The Rights of Protesters'.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: NAACP & the American Ruling Class
« on: August 17, 2017, 07:23:38 PM »
It's worth mentioning that the prolific Professor Gerald Horne was final editor-in-chief of 'Political Affairs' which has been the flagship journal of the Communist Party USA since World War II and finally merged with the 'People's World' magazine last year in 2016.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Jim Crow Revival
« on: August 17, 2017, 07:16:26 PM »
Will the USA become more racist,  and bring back segregation,  I doubt it, I think those days are gone

I also doubt old style racial segregation will return, at least not soon. That's not exactly what I was saying.

 I believe the 99% and the 1% existed back in the Jim Crow era & segregation and racism were tools the 1% (the ruling class) used to keep the lower class divided.

By the 1960's, enough people saw through the old racist laws and that instrument of repression and exploitation lost a lot of its effectiveness. It has been replaced by prisons and jails and police power which have all multiplied since the 1960's.

The ruling class is mostly the same, but their instrument of repression has changed because the civil rights movement successfully damaged the old racist system (although it by no means destroyed it).

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Jim Crow Revival
« on: August 17, 2017, 07:00:20 PM »
Will the USA become more racist,  and bring back segregation,  I doubt it, I think those days are gone

You might be interested in a book about the pervasiveness these days of jails and prisons by Michelle Alexander and entitled:

'The New Jim Crow'

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Jim Crow Revival
« on: August 17, 2017, 06:54:10 PM »
From the heart, I have to stop and say thanks to both Rayzor and FalseProphet for rendering a conversation that is simultaneously both intelligent and civilized.
Much respect.

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