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Messages - 17 November

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Flat Earth Information Repository / Re: Resources: Flat Earth Literature
« on: January 20, 2018, 01:43:27 PM »
I would suggest that Daniel add ‘Plane Truth’ to his online library as it is a history which ties most of these works together and explains biographical information about many of the authors.

‘The Anti-Newtonian’
By an anonymous author (1819)

From the chapter on Rowbotham in Plane Truth, it appears most likely that this booklet and its author were a major source of Samuel Rowbotham’s information and understanding.

Flat Earth Information Repository / Re: Resources: Flat Earth Literature
« on: January 13, 2018, 01:01:28 PM »
‘Plane Truth: A History of the Flat Earth Movement’
By Robert Schadewald

This book is actually much older than Christine Garwood’s book, and she admits that her research was largely based upon Schadewald and includes photographs of Schadewald alongside Charles Johnson with whom he was long time personal friends. Schadewald was also far more sympathetic and contradicts Garwood on many serious issues such as his contention that Flat Earth was the consensus in the early Church.

Christine Garwood is in error asserting that her book is the only history of the modern flat earth movement. By her own admission in the book, her knowledge is largely founded upon the research of Robert Schadewald whose photographs appear in her book alongside his friend Charles Johnson. Schadewald had been writing a far more sympathetic history since the late 1970’s as his Smithsonian article of that time had mentioned. It was unpublished during his lifetime, but his book existed before Garwood’s began.

Furthermore, Schadewald’s book does not contain the many gross errors in Garwood’s book such as the claim that flat earth belief was rare after Pythagoras and in the early Church. This falsification of history is contradicted by most histories of science until the late twentieth century and writers like Jeffrey Burton Russell whom Garwood follows.

Fortunately, Schadewald’s wife and sister got together with some knowledgeable old friends of his and published his history of the modern flat earth movement in 2015. It is a vast improvement and an edifying read to which Garwood’s largely erroneous book might form a supplement:

Flat Earth Believers / Re: Flat Earth model you accept or favor
« on: December 17, 2017, 09:14:13 PM »
I believe the ancient Flat Earth model of described in the Book of Enoch is correct. Strictly speaking, the Earth consists of the Afro-Eurasian landmass. Jerusalem is literally the geographical centre of the earth. Those three continents are the earth surrounded by an outer ocean. North and South America are hyperborea and Atlantis, respectively. These two as well as Australia and Greenland are but islands in the outer ocean which is surrounded by an outer earth on four edges. The four walls of heaven rest on these four edges with a dome on top.

The Book of Enoch was ruled out of the Bible at the Synod of Laodicea in A.D. 378, and I agree with that decision. It is an ancient book that people had corrupted, and the extant copy was not precisely identical with what Enoch himself had originally written. That does not mean the book is not useful or does not contain important knowledge. The Orthodox Church has high standards for what is considered holy scripture and the volume they had failed the test. In my opinion, people who condemn the Church for that reason indicate only their own lack of sagacity.

I like the first century A.D. cosmological tract ascribed to Dionysios the Areopagite as well as the ‘Christian Topography’ by Cosmas Indicipleustes. While I generally follow the model of Cosmas Indicopleustes, I think Rowbotham’s book forms an important supplement. For example, the measurements of the distance of the sun as 700 miles away in Rowbotham’s Book are closer to the truth than Cosmas’s estimate of the sun as roughly a third the size of the earth.

The Lounge / Re: Anyone been accepted to IFERS?
« on: December 17, 2017, 08:19:19 PM »
The flat earth "movement" is not exactly united, is it?

The movement seems to have gained some momentum since about 2015. The newcomers seem somewhat more religious on average compared with the typical forum users of the past decade. I also noticed a lot of the more recent converts got a lot of their knowledge through YouTube and tend to be critical of both and this forum. Fortunately, most of these do not share Eric Dubay’s extremist views either.

I joined DuBay’s site during its first week online and was taken aback when he wondered where I got the statistics for a 700 mile distance of the sun over the earth and realised he had not even read Earth Not a Globe. I bought his book and saw it has no table of contents and consisted of a collage of copy paste from several Flat Earth books which I already owned. I donated it to file 13.

I think the new breed would do well to avoid Dubay. While I share somewhat its revulsion of these forums (but not as strongly), I think folks like the followers of D. Marble and Mark Sargent (both of whom  I know and appreciate) would do well to recognise the library that Daniel Shenton has placed online which by its existence refutes the nonsensical idea that his forum is a disinformation operation. On the contrary, it is an information distribution operation.

I’m holding a flat earth meetup in Salem, Oregon next month and will speak on the history of the Flat Earth movement. I intend to emphasise that aspect of Shenton’s online library.

I knew Robert Schadewald personally in the 1990’s & it’s good to see that his family published his book online which I value over that of Christine Garwood’s whose contribution I view as supplementary and largely based on Schadewald’s research anyway. Nice to see Jeranism recognising the value of Schadewald’s work.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Why do you support donald trump
« on: August 21, 2017, 11:12:14 AM »
Just saw the total eclipse of the sun here in Salem, Oregon. The moon had a thin ring around it for about a minute and a half while the light of the sun was eclipsed.

It seems the sunlight was never eclipsed in the U.S. while Obama was president.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Bing Crosby Predicted Eclipse on the 21st
« on: August 21, 2017, 07:28:38 AM »
I did, and I don't get it, where's the prediction?

Did you click the link which I posted to Free Films ( where you can see this movie?

The scene has a total eclipse of the sun. Bing Crosby is reading a science book and discovers a table of eclipses listed in it shortly before the eclipse occurs.

Arts & Entertainment / Bing Crosby Predicted Eclipse on the 21st
« on: August 20, 2017, 10:40:01 PM »
This 1949 movie has a peculiar scene beginning approximately at the 1 hour, 39 minute mark: 

A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court

New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu
May 2017 Speech About His Decision to Implement Legal Rulings to Bring Down Confederate Statues

For the other side of the story, thanks to Glenn Greenwald for bringing us Edward Snowden's story to the world. I've found his articles and books to be informative and non-conformist.

Among others, he wrote for the Nation and cofounded the Intercept.

I believe to say that the protests of Black Lives Matter are mainly about Confederate statues is not accurate. They are especially about people getting killed, particularly black people because they are the recipients of the lion's share of violence.

I personally appreciate gun rights and the second amendment to the U.S. Constitution. To take away that right would be a huge move towards repression of freedom.

 So I was amazed when I learned several years ago that the NRA actually supported the Gun Control Act of 1968 which is the heaviest gun control law in U.S. history and which Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership have demonstrated is derived in large word-for-word sections from the Nazi Germany Gun Control Law of 1938. Why would the NRA support such a law?

I finally discovered the answer from Professor Gerald Horne who shows throughout most of US history black people were not allowed to benefit from much of the bill of rights and were accordingly prohibited from having guns in spite of the U.S. Constitution guaranteeing the right.

When black people finally started to get their rights during the 1960's, this is why the NRA started promoting gun restriction to limit the people who could have guns. So the NRA is an historically racist organisation. Sad to say, but it's true.

I think bringing down Confederate statues is long since a great idea.  The popularity of the statues' defenders is a good indication of ignorance and racism.

Over the past year I've collected several down to earth practical books issued by the ACLU describing in depth the legal rights of various groups of citizens. This particular subject brings to mind one of these books entitled 'The Rights of Protesters'.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: NAACP & the American Ruling Class
« on: August 17, 2017, 07:23:38 PM »
It's worth mentioning that the prolific Professor Gerald Horne was final editor-in-chief of 'Political Affairs' which has been the flagship journal of the Communist Party USA since World War II and finally merged with the 'People's World' magazine last year in 2016.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Jim Crow Revival
« on: August 17, 2017, 07:16:26 PM »
Will the USA become more racist,  and bring back segregation,  I doubt it, I think those days are gone

I also doubt old style racial segregation will return, at least not soon. That's not exactly what I was saying.

 I believe the 99% and the 1% existed back in the Jim Crow era & segregation and racism were tools the 1% (the ruling class) used to keep the lower class divided.

By the 1960's, enough people saw through the old racist laws and that instrument of repression and exploitation lost a lot of its effectiveness. It has been replaced by prisons and jails and police power which have all multiplied since the 1960's.

The ruling class is mostly the same, but their instrument of repression has changed because the civil rights movement successfully damaged the old racist system (although it by no means destroyed it).

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Jim Crow Revival
« on: August 17, 2017, 07:00:20 PM »
Will the USA become more racist,  and bring back segregation,  I doubt it, I think those days are gone

You might be interested in a book about the pervasiveness these days of jails and prisons by Michelle Alexander and entitled:

'The New Jim Crow'

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Jim Crow Revival
« on: August 17, 2017, 06:54:10 PM »
From the heart, I have to stop and say thanks to both Rayzor and FalseProphet for rendering a conversation that is simultaneously both intelligent and civilized.
Much respect.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Jim Crow Revival
« on: August 16, 2017, 06:14:53 PM »
The police and many lawmakers were allied with the Ku Klux Klan and violent groups in the old Jim Crow South. These laws would give legal protection to the violence and murder which the Ku Klux Klan and similar groups and persons commit.

It is a fascist effort aimed at those who fight for the rights of the disadvantaged.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Jim Crow Revival
« on: August 16, 2017, 06:06:42 PM »
Proposed laws in several U.S. states protect drivers who kill protesters. This move is strongest in areas like the American South where Black Lives Matter demonstrations have stopped traffic.

Police unions and allied politicians are the most open supporters of these proposed laws that would legally protect killing protesters. The legislation is being worded so the driver gets off unless it is proved the death was intentional.

Does Jim Crow still exist if this passes?

Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: August 06, 2017, 07:20:23 PM »
Cedric Belfrage's book is to my knowledge the best book on america's domestic fascism from 1945 to 1960 since it is not perverted by the establishment's viewpoint. It offers the victims' perspective, and it covers the entire "McCarthy" era which the civil rights movement succeeded in breaking up temporarily and only to a degree.

I'd like to get more books by the black Marxist historian Gerald Horne who (among others such as Angela Davis) shows that the establishment sought to control the civil rights leaders and labor union leaders by ensuring that only the programs of anti-communist leaders met with success. Thus, the NAACP and the AFL-CIO (and the Democrat Party) are anti-communist just like Republicans.

Indeed, the Democrat president Truman started the Cold War. That is the subject of:

'We Can Be Friends:
The Origins of the Cold War'
By Carl Marzani (1952)

This book blames the Americans and is perhaps the best history of McCarthy era foreign policy and an appropriate complement to Cedric Belfrage's book about domestic fascism.

 I just ordered Carl Marzani's book. I am reading Belfrage's. As to the name of the McCarthy era, Belfrage says in the preface that J. Edgar Hoover deserves the era named after him more than any other American as he fathered america's domestic fascism, it's police state.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: August 05, 2017, 06:30:19 PM »
'American Inquisition: 1945-1960'
By Cedric Belfrage

The best history of the McCarthy era I've come across.
It's a year by year account with informative references to the best books on various aspects and very good analysis. The author founded perhaps the most militant non-communist national newspaper of the era and was deported in the 1950's after being questioned by McCarthy.

This book seems a relevant resource for both conservatives and liberals as many fascist extremes like American laws providing for concentration camps have their origins during this era.

This era was such a remarkable reversal of the politics of 1943 & 1944. I generally don't agree with the anti-communist themes and politics in Hitchcock's movies, but I just saw one from 1942 called 'Saboteur' which is likely the best movie he ever directed. The scene with the old blind man in the forest is obviously derived from Frankenstein and steals the show. His ideals such as "believing a man is innocent until proven guilty" or "unjust laws need to be disobeyed" are such a contrast to the McCarthy era fascism described in Belfrage's book perhaps more eloquently than any other.


This movie broadly brought to mind a comparison with Office Space. The head of the underground fascist network who is kind of untouchable is analogous to Lumberg. The old man in the forest is most analogous to the hypnotist.

Particularly nice is Horne's assertion at the conclusion that many young people's fascination today with the Jim Crow era is motivated by what they correctly discern as dissatisfaction with compromises such as those made by the NAACP leaders.

The fight against racism has been a great thing, but many things which the NAACP did rightly such as combatting Jim Crow laws were programs which originated communists to whom they seldom gave credit.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / NAACP & the American Ruling Class
« on: July 29, 2017, 07:29:13 PM »

In 1948, NAACP Compromises With White Racist American Establishment &
Accepts Anti-Communist Ideology to Survive.
Accordingly, they expel and persecute their own founder, the scholar and civil rights activist W.E.B. DuBois

Real News founder Paul Jay interviews Houston University Professor Gerald Horne, a prolific Marxist historian.

In the first of six 20-minute segments which assess phases of American history, Horne criticises the NAACP for compromising the civil rights movement by agreeing to become anti-communist - a modus vivendi made with america's repressive establishment to oppose communism in return for a measure of civil rights.

This is a major contributing reason for the relative success of the NAACP and the decline of the Communist Party USA during the Cold War.

In the black community, Horne explains, opposition to white racism is paramount. As long as one follows that principle, he has legroom in other areas. The white establishment successfully exploited this weakness of the NAACP. Martin Luther King got out of line by publicly defending communism through his support of the Vietnamese against American fascism, and he was dead within about a year.  By contrast, some NAACP leaders have been cowardly to speak against america's wars, and have deviated from the heritage of their founder, the outspoken W.E.B. DuBois who in fact joined the Communist Party USA shortly before he died.

As Horne alludes towards the end of this first segment, this compromise which mandated anti-communism on behalf of representatives of the lower classes was also made with labor union leaders which explains the deradicalization of unions like the CIO.

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Ukraine's Successor State
« on: July 29, 2017, 03:24:11 PM »
Since Ukraine has a particularly ugly post-Soviet history even among East European governments, the Malorossiyan Federation composed of members from all over the Ukraine issued a decree in July 2017 endorsing the end of the Ukrainian state concomitant with the creation of a new government which is in accordance with the will of peoples throughout the land and a corresponding period of transition.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Now Playing
« on: July 29, 2017, 11:42:17 AM »
Flat Earth - Crazy Scientist

Very well done.

'Solidarity Forever'
By the Almanac Singers

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Now Playing
« on: July 27, 2017, 07:11:21 PM »
Hallelujah, I'm a Bum
By Utah Phillips

Hi guys,

I am a bachelor student Aerospace Engineering and totally believe that the earth is a globe. Within our field of engineering/science it is common sense that the earth is a globe and not flat.

I wonder what the view of a flat earther is on this group of people working/studying in Aerospace. Are all my professors wrong, or do they contribute to the conspiracy? Are all the companies who work in Aerospace, launch rockets, build satellites, use satellites, etc. wrong or do all these people know about the truth but tell us lies? can they keep their company running if satellites can not orbit the earth because it's not a globe?

I believe that airborne satellites are just as compatible with the reality of a flat earth as are airplanes, but I find your main question about the aerospace industry and engineering to be more interesting.

For an alternative view of the American engineering industry in general including its aspect of tightly controlled education and propaganda, I suggest:

'America By Design'
by David Noble

which will give a strong perspective of exactly how the engineering industry functions in the scheme of things in the way you perhaps imagined some of us believe. Here is a old but accurate review of the book written after it was published in the late 1970's:

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Now Playing
« on: July 27, 2017, 06:27:33 PM »
Roll the Union On
By the Almanac Singers

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Now Playing
« on: July 26, 2017, 07:20:26 PM »
I was thinking on this Johnny Cash song that anyone (man or woman) wanting to marry an American should consider it before committing.

'White Girl'

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Now Playing
« on: July 24, 2017, 07:55:32 PM »
Are You Man Enough?
By the Four Tops

Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: July 18, 2017, 06:35:39 AM »
'Virtual Politics: Faking Democracy in the Post-Soviet Union'
By Andrew Wilson

This book and its author's other books are typical, anti-communist propaganda - just what you would expect from most American and British writers.

However, he does here provide a lot of evidence and facts relating to the engineering of elections in Russia. By the official polls, United Russia, Putin's party is the leading party, and the Communist Party of the Russian Federation is second.

In spite of the author's prejudices, I believe there is a measure of truth in all this evidence about Putin faking elections to stay in power.

I suspect that the majority of Russians prefer the Communist Party of the Russian Federation, and Putin has prevented its resurgence. Don't get me wrong. I generally agree with Putin about issues such as Ukraine, but so do the communists. The west and their propaganda are nothing but fascism, and this fascist propaganda has prevented correct understanding of Russia by painting communism as evil and by painting Putin as a communist. He was at one time, but he's definitely not a communist these days. He's not the devil incarnate and does have his good aspects, but I believe he is not the best for the job.  If he was the best, the Soviet Union would have already reconstituted with Ukraine and the others, Khaddafi would still be alive and in power, and the U.S. would be haulted and turning in upon itself.

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