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Messages - 17 November

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1
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Murder of George Floyd
« on: June 20, 2020, 05:13:03 PM »
Defund the weapons buying part of the police and fund the training part so they can actually properly train them. And sort out the police union. I'm all for unions but not unions that let people literally get away with murder.
👍🏽

2
‘Contra Antipodes’
By Zacaria Lilio
(1496)

(text in untranslated Latin)

https://archive.org/details/ita-bnc-in2-00001445-001

3
Professor Allegro’s article is essentially a concise and sharp summary of research by William Randles who was an expert on geography in the renaissance.  This book published in 2000 contains the highlights of Randles’s 50 year career.

‘Geography, Cartography, and Nautical Science in the Renaissance’
By William Randles

Review: https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Geography%2C+Cartography+and+Nautical+Science+in+the+Renaissance%3A+The...-a099012029

Table of Contents:
http://opac.regesta-imperii.de/lang_en/anzeige.php?sammelwerk=Randles%2C+Geography%2C+cartography+and+nautical+science+in+the+Renaissance

The lead and longest article is a history of geography in the West from Ancient Greece to about 1500 which states that four models of geography which coexisted throughout the Middle Ages were active in Western Europe in the 1400’s and 1500’s. One was the flat earth concept that Randles calls Homeric, and the other  three were different schools of globularism including Ptolemy and also the ancient theory of Crates of four continents on a globe.

The essay ends by describing how the currently dominant theory of a terraqueous globe rose in popularity during the 1400’s concomitant with the rise of Portuguese colonialism.

Randles’s book shows that early Christian flat earthism survived intact in Western Europe until the 1500’s, particularly within Catholic countries of southwestern Europe like Italy and Spain.


——————————

A logical follow up to this is William Randles’s book:

‘The Unmaking of the Medieval Christian Cosmos: 1500-1760’

Review:
https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/385085?mobileUi=0&

Significantly this book contains a chapter stating that the two leading forces against flat earthism during the renaissance of Western Europe were renaissance humanists and Protestant Reformers. These latter were spherical geocentrists, but their geocentrism was close to heliocentrism in that Calvin’s commentary on Genesis (for example) explicitly calls the earth “a small globe” which makes it a mere object in space instead of the bottom half of the cosmos.

4
‘Bottom of the Universe’
By James J Allegro

Approximately 23 page learned treatise gives considerable evidence that flat earthism was alive and well in Western European scholarship at the time of Columbus, particularly in Catholic areas including Italy and Spain.

Zacaria Lilio, the rector of Saint John Lateran Church in Rome in the 1490’s is the centrepiece of the article. He wrote a flat earth book entitled ‘Contra Antipodes’ published in Florence in 1496 to refute the propaganda accompanying Columbus’s voyages.

Lilio had an international network of allies including the human rights activist Girolomo Savonarola who was mayor of Florence when Lilio’s book was published there. Savonarola and Lilio were both critical of Pope Alexander III who was an ally of the colonialists and famously condoned the division of the Atlantic realm between the Spanish and Portuguese empires and also had Savonarola put to death.

Another ally of Lilio was his mentor Tostado in Spain, a member of the Inquisition who was an enemy of the Torquemada family who is famous for opposing sponsorship of Columbus’s voyage as the flat earthers including both Tostado and Lilio were against colonialism and for human rights. Tostado was a predecessor of Bishop Bartolommeo de las Casas who wrote a pro-indigenous history of the colonisation of Mexico in the 1500’s that severely criticised the colonisation.

Note: This link gives an abstract describing the article, but one might have to visit a library with subscriptions to read the entire article.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0073275316681799?fbclid=IwAR1KecOQufbc-6lCibADzQi_4_AJl6pjTGSdWeaNUWAtdC1oAcdWtiYSIKg&journalCode=hosa

5
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Nuclear Power Exaggerated
« on: July 26, 2019, 09:21:06 PM »
‘Five Myths About Nuclear Weapons’
By Ward Wilson

This book’s first chapter entitled that ‘Nuclear Weapons Shock and Awe Opponents’ was an especially major part of American propaganda from 1945 to about 1960, but the propaganda lost much of its edge by the late 1950’s because of actual Soviet technological and military improvements that contradicted the exaggerated American propaganda.

Since American atomic power propaganda began to lose influence in the late 1950’s as noted in General Maxwell Taylor’s book ‘The Uncertain Trumpet’ as well as by Soviet writers, in my opinion the Kennedy administration decided to supplement the nuclear myth with space propaganda from 1961 onwards.

The nuclear myth is the predecessor of moon mission propaganda.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Five_Myths_About_Nuclear_Weapons.html?id=70ZRhKAHM4oC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button

6
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Nuclear Power Exaggerated
« on: July 26, 2019, 09:19:26 PM »
An hour long interview of Hasegawa by a fellow American professor.



Hasegawa does not ignore evidence that makes the Soviets look good and is therefore usually ignored by American historians and hence unknown to most Americans.

The two bombs were dropped on August 6 & 9, and the Soviet Red Army invaded Japan in between these dates.

The Red Army had three months to rest and prepare for the invasion and crumbled Japan’s empire in Asia like a house of cards.

Japan’s top leaders held an emergency meeting on August 9 because if they didn’t decide soon, then Soviet Russian troops would be in Tokyo within days and all Japan would become communist. Just like the Nazi leaders, the Japanese desperately wanted to surrender to Americans which is what they ultimately decided.

Hasegawa gives a lot of information about why the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki had nothing to do with the surrender decision except as an agreed upon propaganda between Japanese and American leaders. This part is summarised well in Wilson’s article.

Intriguingly, in the interview Hasegawa mentions a Harvard physicist who wrote a technical paper that says the “atomic” bombs had no difference in quality over conventional bombs, but only a difference in quantity.

7
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Nuclear Power Exaggerated
« on: July 26, 2019, 09:02:09 PM »
Ward Wilson’s article got its information from the book:

‘Racing the Enemy’ by Japanese researcher Tsuyoshi Hasegawa.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Racing_the_Enemy.html?id=iPju1MrqgU4C&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button

8
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Nuclear Power Exaggerated
« on: July 26, 2019, 08:58:30 PM »
‘The Bomb Didn’t Beat Japan. Stalin Did’
By Ward Wilson

https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/

9
Flat Earth Believers / Re: FE Conference 2018
« on: October 25, 2018, 11:38:52 PM »


I’m pretty stoked.

10
Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Nuclear Power Exaggerated
« on: August 08, 2018, 05:20:13 PM »
Wanted to mention a writer by the name of William Arkin who since the early 1980’s seems to be recognised as the foremost authority on the subject of weapons of mass destruction. Ronald Reagan denounced Arkin in the early 1980’s for exposing locations of all American nuclear weapons in one of his books. His knowledge lies more in the area of military practicalities, storage locations, history, et al as opposed to technical science.

Perhaps a very solid familiarisation with the subject of everything to do with nuclear weapons written by Arkin is:

‘Nuclear Battlefields’
By William Arkin (1985)

This book has appendices listing and briefly describing  all military installations in the US, Russia, Britain, France, and China as well as details about which one contain nuclear bombs and how many at each location. Dated, but very detailed and comprehensive.

He’s got several more recent books on the US military and the growth of internal security in recent years.

11
Flat Earth General / Re: Why is moonlight cold?
« on: August 08, 2018, 04:49:14 PM »
Never did get a straight answer on that one... go figure.  :)
The clear night sky is what is so cold, not the moonlight!
Well, Lane County Flat Earth Research in Eugene, Oregon got together on a clear night with a full moon in a public park with infrared thermometers which measure the surface temperatures of objects.

We took two at least two temperatures of each of each object: one in direct moonlight and the second in the shade.

The result was consistently that the part of any object in the shade was hotter than the area of the same object in the moonlight. I appreciate that group’s organiser as I was unaware of that hitherto.

And considering that, I don’t have any respect for statements by anyone arguing moonlight is not cold which are devoid of any evidence.
Repeat the same experiment when there is no moon! You'll get the same results! The object in the shade is protected from the cool air and absorbs the heat stored in the material of the shade.

I would welcome and be happy and ready to do what you recommend except that this involves two temperature readings - one in the light and the other in the shade.

Therefore, I am at a loss as to what should be used as the light source for such an experiment during a new moon at night. 

Forgive me for stating the obvious, but if I make the same experiment using the sun as the light source (i.e. making the same dual temperature readings during daytime/ one in direct sunlight & one in the shade), then I’m thinking the results will be the opposite of what I found in the case of a full moon.

So I’m still left concluding that sunlight is hot and moonlight is cold. I can dig it. Why do some folks have such a hang up with that conclusion? Just respectfully asking.

12
Flat Earth Believers / FE Conference 2018
« on: August 06, 2018, 06:51:45 PM »
The Canadian Flat Earth conference is upon us this week. I’m going to the one in Denver, Colorado in November (15 & 16). I’ve already got plane tickets and VIP conference tickets because I wanted to discuss biblical and ancient cosmology a bit with a couple of the speakers such as Zen Garcia.

http://fe2018.com/schedule/

Just an observation. Robbie Davidson and the whole group doing these big annual conferences are decidedly more biblical and Christian oriented in general than the run of the mill on this forum.

13
Flat Earth General / Re: Why is moonlight cold?
« on: August 06, 2018, 06:40:43 PM »
Never did get a straight answer on that one... go figure.  :)
The clear night sky is what is so cold, not the moonlight!
Well, Lane County Flat Earth Research in Eugene, Oregon got together on a clear night with a full moon in a public park with infrared thermometers which measure the surface temperatures of objects.

We took two at least two temperatures of each of each object: one in direct moonlight and the second in the shade.

The result was consistently that the part of any object in the shade was hotter than the area of the same object in the moonlight. I appreciate that group’s organiser as I was unaware of that hitherto.

And considering that, I don’t have any respect for statements by anyone arguing moonlight is not cold which are devoid of any evidence.

14
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: South Africa
« on: June 04, 2018, 07:59:59 PM »
A characteristically outspoken report by Christopher Hitchens from the days when he wrote from a left perspective against religious corruption:


15
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: South Africa
« on: June 04, 2018, 07:55:42 PM »
I, myself, have never been to Tibet so I cannot speak with firsthand knowledge, as you seem to.  I have, however, met many Tibetan people.  This was several years ago while in India.  Not a single one of them, especially the older ones, agreed with your assessment.
They did talk about people sent to slave labor camps and about ethnic tibetans were considered "mentally ill" by the Chinese and so were not allowed to have children.
But no one said communism made it better.
The Tibetan community who departed to India in 1959 are the elite who exploited the country. I would expect them to have a negative opinion of communism which disenthroned them. It’s very prejudiced.

Why don’t you ask Tibetans who actually live with communism what they think of it?
A French writer named Máxime Vivas did just that and wrote a book about it:
‘Behind the Smile’
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1592651402?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_yo_pop_mb_pd_t2



16
Flat Earth Believers / Re: Favorite Youtube Flat Earthers
« on: June 04, 2018, 07:15:15 PM »
I asked Darryle Marble if he has come across any flat earth believers who follow the early Christian model such as Cosmas Indicopleustes, and he replied negatively. He has not.

This confirms to me that what is being promoted is not a biblically or Christian based world. It more closely resembles the Flat Earth world of the Vedic religions.

Perhaps Zen Garcia or Rob Skiba come closest to the ancient Christian model than anyone I’ve seen so far because of their interest in the book of Enoch, but I am not aware of interest by even them in Cosmas Indicopleustes.

The YouTube movement brought a quantity of people in to the movement - at least temporarily, but quality of belief is another matter.

17
Flat Earth Believers / Re: Favorite Youtube Flat Earthers
« on: June 04, 2018, 07:02:42 PM »
I like this guys channel on youtube, "conspiracy music guru"

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnle0nUC3Fx0lkchpmZy0Lw

Concur.

I probably follow Darryle Marble as much as anyone because he emphasised the basics which I do agree with.

I’m personal friends with him and met him on several occasions being in the Pacific Northwest.

I’m friends with Mark Sargent who is a very decent guy and find his Flat Earth book useful for the same reason, but I don’t at all concur with his conspiracy ridden views of current events which in fact characterises much of the Flat Earth YouTube community to its detriment.

This conspiracy ridden view of life is a great handicap that signifies the ugly american character of the vast popularity of Flat Earthism since 2014. Comparable to evangelicalism, its parochial views severely limit the movement’s potential both for understanding deeper perspectives and reaching a more receptive world.

I’ve been severely critical of this forum in the past, but (to its credit) its ratio of leftists and engagers of radical thought is higher than those in the YouTube movement.

18
Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: May 07, 2018, 08:49:25 PM »
Pretty much any field guide/informational book about birds. I've forgotten a lot of my bird knowledge over the winter. My favorite field guide is the fifth edition of National Geographic's
Field Guide to the Birds of North America.

Possibly you’d find ‘Thunderbirds’ by Mark Hall interesting:

http://www.paraview.com/hall/

https://books.google.com/books?id=hWrBBAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=true

https://www.coasttocoastam.com/amp/show/2006/06/30

19
Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: April 27, 2018, 10:22:35 AM »
I’ve been looking for books about Germany history from a communist perspective and hit the jackpot this week.

‘Racism and Human Survival:
Lessons From Nazi Germany’
By Claude Lightfoot
(1972)
(an African-American communist)

https://ia601201.us.archive.org/18/items/RacismAndHumanSurvival/Racism%20and%20Human%20Survival.pdf

‘Honecker Cross-Examined’
By Erich Honecker
(1992)

Interviews of the final leader of East Germany who built the Berlin Wall and to whom the Stasi answered. He delivers impressive answers to serious questions and accusations.

I also came across a similar set of interviews his wife later gave to a Chilean communist leader. I have to say I was proud of her to read her views - and accordingly think of the American perspective as largely unquestioned rubbish.

20
The Lounge / Re: Movies You're Looking Forward To
« on: April 21, 2018, 05:20:17 PM »
Those finding the original too long might watch the animated version released during the war, ‘Confessions of a Nutzy Spy’:


21
The Lounge / Re: Movies You're Looking Forward To
« on: April 21, 2018, 05:17:09 PM »
Intending to watch ‘Confessions of a Nazi Spy’ (early 1939) this week starring Edward G. Robinson as the investigator.

https://ffilms.org/confessions-of-a-nazi-spy-1939/

22
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: South Africa
« on: April 21, 2018, 12:05:43 PM »
A few analogies: 
In good ways, Zimbabwe and South Africa seem analogous to Cuba and Venezuela.

South Africa’s land redistribution strikes me as a fulfilment of Union General Sherman’s 1865 unfulfilled  promise of 40 acres and a mule to the former slaves and poor whites in the southern US with the seized property of planatation owners and big businesses which was effectively delivered by Lenin to the poor Russians after 1917.

The small angry group of expunged white former landowners and exploiters bring to mind the Dalai Lama and his corrupt retinue waging a failed PR against the fabricated evils of communism when in reality pre-Communist Tibet was an unspeakable fascist horror that communism has vastly improved.

23
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: South Africa
« on: March 26, 2018, 08:15:11 AM »
I’d like to say I just got the book ‘We Want What’s Ours’, and it’s refreshing to hear a voice that doesn’t denigrate free post-apartheid South Africa.

http://wewantwhatsours.com

24
Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: March 20, 2018, 09:19:30 PM »
Woody Holton also has a book entitled Forced Founders which complements Gerald Horne’s book. I’ve bought a couple of other of Woody’s books which are inferior to this one.

Gerald Horne himself wrote a continuation of his book into the early nineteenth century entitled Negro Comrades of the Crown showing how black loyalists eagerly assisted the British to burn down the White House circa 1812 - among many other interesting things. Pretty much all of Gerald Horne’s books are good.

25
Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: March 20, 2018, 09:07:31 PM »
This is a criticism of the book that came up in Wikipedia.  But this is a very minor part of the story.  It has to do with Ernst Rohm.  The point he was trying to make was that Hitler was willing to overlook all kinds of criminal/unethical behavior if it could earn him support.  Shirer lumped in homosexuality with immoral behavior.  He did seem to have a negative opinion of it but its about what you would expect from someone of that generation.

I actually picked up a 1960 edition recently, and it’s bulky: World War II’s answer to Tolstoy’s War & Peace. I scanned it and didn’t see what I was looking for at a glance. The story of SA leader Ernst Roehm is well known. I had wondered if it had any info on the other leaders.

Samuel Igra’s book has it that when the nineteenth century founder of the German homosexual movement died around the turn of the century, the movement split into two: a Spartan like group and an effeminate group, and the two groups became enemies. According to Igra, Roehm belonged to the effeminate group who thought they were women in men’s bodies whereas Hitler, Hess, etc belonged to the Spartan group. The 1934 suppression of SA leaders was a conflict of one homosexual group against another according to Igra.

The conversations of Rauschning published in 1940 rather support this as well as a book published about 2001 entitled the Hidden Hitler which exhaustively researched evidence that Hitler himself was homosexual.

The reason for my more extensive interest here is the same as with many nonconformist positions which are inconvenient to political correctness. The establishment position seems to want to resist evidence that points in a different direction than what the media consistently touts.

26
Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: March 20, 2018, 01:17:58 PM »
‘Sundown Towns’
By James Loewen

The  author (who also wrote ‘Lies My Teacher Told Me’) at a bookstore in Washington, DC describes this book which argues that beginning about 1890, the majority of incorporated localities (towns, cities, counties, etc) across the entire USA (outside the traditional South) excluded black people for many decades, and many still do to this day:


27
Arts & Entertainment / Re: What are you reading?
« on: March 20, 2018, 01:10:05 PM »
Well I finally finished reading Rise and Fall of the Third Reich.  Learned quite a bit.  To much to talk about in a single post.

Next book, anybody know a good book that covers either the french revolution of the American revolution?

I’ve been getting books by Soviet Marshalls including Chuikov (who was in command at the battles of Stalingrad and Berlin), Rokosovsky (on overall strategy against the USA), Zhukov (led entire Red Army in WW2), and Colonel Sidorenko who authored the ‘Offensive’ which is he Soviet strategy for victory in a world war using weapons of mass destruction.

I thought to balance these with a western writer, and ‘Rise and Fall of the Third Reich’ by William Shirer seems to fit the bill. I can already tell you I agree with his negative assessment of the Lutheran church, and the fact he was a Protestant himself lends to his credibility. He apparently had nerves of steel staying in Germany reporting negatively about the Nazis until 1940 which is after the war was well underway.

Since I have not read it yet, I have one question. I came across a book from 1945 by a German Jew named Samuel Igra entitled ‘Germany’s National Vice’ which gives intriguing historical perspectives about the homosexual movement in Germany including such events as the purge of the SA and arguing that the Nazi leaders were part of it.

I’ve heard William Shirer had a negative view of homosexuality and wrote that the Nazi leaders were involved in this. Did you read anything to that effect?

For a history of the American revolution, check out the ‘Counter Revolution of 1776’ by Gerald Horne which argues it was fought to preserve slavery as Britain legalised slavery in the 1770’s (& throughout the Empire in 1830) & views the USA as preserving the worst of British colonialism which itself was mellowing with age with its abolitionist Movement spearheading nineteenth century socialist legislation.

The book is a history of slaves in British America in the 1700s concluding with the revolution during which the blacks wholly were loyalists in support of Britain which in fact continued to be the case until the American Civil War.

The prolific author is a member of the CPUSA and the final editor of its journal Political Affairs.

An six part interview which discusses the book which decidedly views the American revolution as evil:


28
Flat Earth Information Repository / Re: Resources: Flat Earth Literature
« on: January 20, 2018, 01:43:27 PM »
I would suggest that Daniel add ‘Plane Truth’ to his online library as it is a history which ties most of these works together and explains biographical information about many of the authors.

‘The Anti-Newtonian’
By an anonymous author (1819)

https://books.google.com/books?id=i21bAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22speculative%20astronomy%22&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

From the chapter on Rowbotham in Plane Truth, it appears most likely that this booklet and its author were a major source of Samuel Rowbotham’s information and understanding.

29
Flat Earth Information Repository / Re: Resources: Flat Earth Literature
« on: January 13, 2018, 01:01:28 PM »
‘Plane Truth: A History of the Flat Earth Movement’
By Robert Schadewald

http://www.cantab.net/users/michael.behrend/ebooks/PlaneTruth/pages/index.html

This book is actually much older than Christine Garwood’s book, and she admits that her research was largely based upon Schadewald and includes photographs of Schadewald alongside Charles Johnson with whom he was long time personal friends. Schadewald was also far more sympathetic and contradicts Garwood on many serious issues such as his contention that Flat Earth was the consensus in the early Church.

30
Christine Garwood is in error asserting that her book is the only history of the modern flat earth movement. By her own admission in the book, her knowledge is largely founded upon the research of Robert Schadewald whose photographs appear in her book alongside his friend Charles Johnson. Schadewald had been writing a far more sympathetic history since the late 1970’s as his Smithsonian article of that time had mentioned. It was unpublished during his lifetime, but his book existed before Garwood’s began.

Furthermore, Schadewald’s book does not contain the many gross errors in Garwood’s book such as the claim that flat earth belief was rare after Pythagoras and in the early Church. This falsification of history is contradicted by most histories of science until the late twentieth century and writers like Jeffrey Burton Russell whom Garwood follows.

Fortunately, Schadewald’s wife and sister got together with some knowledgeable old friends of his and published his history of the modern flat earth movement in 2015. It is a vast improvement and an edifying read to which Garwood’s largely erroneous book might form a supplement:

http://www.cantab.net/users/michael.behrend/ebooks/PlaneTruth/pages/index.html

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