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### Messages - jimster

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1
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« on: August 03, 2021, 12:44:44 PM »
It is not just lasers. Go to youtube and search "ham radio moonbounce". Govt, university, and amateurs all over the world have done this and gotten the same answer, so radio waves with no reflector get the same results. Time/speed/distance matches, the delay in the return signal is just what RE predicts.

2
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: FE map with scale
« on: August 03, 2021, 12:38:06 PM »
To answer the question "Is the earth flat?", you just need the distance from 4 widely separated points. If the earth is flat, you can construct a scaled representation on a flat sheet of paper and it will work. If the earth is not flat, there will be no way to lay them out so that the distances are all correct.

Does not matter what a map is. Databases don't matter. Small differences between airline schedule and google maps don't matter. If you have two databases with different distances between the same two points, please show us.

Early in my FE experience, I checked many, many sources for the distance between Sydney and LA because I flew that route and everything matched. They all matched with a few miles. GPS matches in LA and Sydney. The geometric equation to calculate the distance matches. The time/speed/distance of an airliner matches. FE says, those distances are wrong, because they have to be, or the earth is round. So if you want to solipsism it, you can say "nobody knows anything", but then why even discuss, we can't know anything (zetetic).

It is this simple: If you lay out the scaled distances between London, Capetown, and Tokyo on a flat sheet of paper. Now take the published distances between each of these and Tehran. There will not be a place where all three distances to Tehran match up at the same point. Do the same on a sphere and they will match up. It will be the same for any big triangle and a fourth point in the middle of the triangle. If you can do it, the earth is flat.

So you either have to say that all these databases, web sites, etc are wrong, or the earth is round. No need to define map, I have not even used that word in this post. The only question is, are gps, google maps, nav equipment, the entire consistent and daily used with success sources wrong? Because if they are right, the earth is round.

Complexity is the FE's friend. If you want to take the RE position, drive towards simplicity. Do not go down the rabbit hole.

3
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: FE map with scale
« on: July 31, 2021, 11:06:18 PM »
Lost in the weeds again, I tried to read it but it wasn't about how to make a FE map. Let me simplify.

Map the following places:

London UK
Capetown South Africa
Tokyo Japan
Sydney Australia
Tehran Iran

First, you need the distances. Airline schedules, google maps, any database you want. If you have different numbers from different databases, that would be more interesting than the FE map discussion, and I am not talking about differences of a couple miles in a thousand because they measured from different points.

If you think all sources are wrong and we can only know by crawling with our own personal ruler, then go sit in a dark room and drool on yourself, because without trusting other people's information, we can't know much at all.

Now lay out those points on a flat piece of paper and a sphere. One will work, the other won't (Gauss's Remarkable Theorem). If the earth is flat, you can plot all these points with their published distances and there will be no problem. If the earth is round and you plot the distances on a flat surface, there will be no way to make the distances match.

So if someone wants to take FE in this debate, lay out these cities with scaled distances on a flat sheet of paper. You will be the greatest FE hero. Cartesian plane is nmuch easier than 3 space geometry, should be easy.

I think I have to lay out the distances on a flat sheet myself, but why spend the time when FE will say "you don't personally know those distances." or simply see things are not going their way and ignore.

4
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: Mythbusters did the moon landing
« on: July 31, 2021, 07:42:45 PM »
This guy is a real film director who explains how 1969 technology to fake the moon landing:

5
##### Flat Earth General / Re: Space tourism
« on: July 13, 2021, 08:14:17 PM »

6
##### Flat Earth General / Re: Space tourism
« on: July 13, 2021, 08:12:11 PM »
I flew from Sydney to LA. The flight time, airspeed. and distance all matched my experience as published. While I was in Australia, I saw the southern cross. On FE map, the distance is much longer (maybe, no scale). longer than the range of the plane I flew on.

7
##### Flat Earth General / Re: Q, Antarctica, and FE
« on: July 13, 2021, 07:07:35 PM »

Just get the money to charter the plane.

8
##### Flat Earth General / Carl Sagan - stupid or evil?
« on: July 13, 2021, 07:04:07 PM »
“I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...

The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”

― Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

______________________________________________________________________

Can anyone think of an example of what he is talking about? Q? FE?

9
##### Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Big Tech Censorship
« on: July 08, 2021, 12:28:06 PM »
There is no good answer, only differing judgements. Should facebook etc publish anything? Pro nazi, pro-pedophile, jews are untermenschen, etc? Who should judge what should be said? Govt? Private company/rich tech entreprenuer? Nobody? Democracy? What system of censorship would make all happy?

Then there is the gray area problem. Dog whistle, hinting at something so that your supporters know what you mean but your opponents can't pin you down. Trump saying "no violence" in the same speech he said "fight like hell". Something for everyone.Someone trying to get the message out without breaking a rule.

Who will judge? You determine the answer by picking the person. A huge number of people will be unhappy no matter what.

The real problem is that people don't do consistency checks, assume the thing and see if that implies contradiction to known reality, and not explaining such with conspiracy. They attach to groups emotionally and then believe a story that serves their purpose. For instance, someone who wanted to believe the earth is flat might decide that NASA is a giant conspiracy.

10
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: FE map with scale
« on: July 06, 2021, 02:10:52 PM »
Map making is either simple or impossible.

If the distances from google maps, airline schedules, web sites, etc is correct (I have checked, and they match) are true, just start with one place and measure the scaled distance to mark the second. Take these two points and mark the place where a third point is the reported distance from each of the first two. Continue with more and more points. If the earth is flat, you will be able to do this on a flat sheet of paper. If the earth is round, it will only be possible on a sphere.

Try plotting London, Capetown, Tokyo, and Sydney scaled distance on a flat sheet of paper. Now plot Cairo. If the earth is flat, no problem. If the earth is round, the distances from each city to Cairo will not and up at the same point.

Knowing this, FE says, all this distances are wrong. Now making a map is impossible - FE or RE. The US Navy does not know where its ships are, the Air Force does not know where its planes are, no one knows where ICBMs would land, gps doesn't work, airlines are just guessing re flight time and fuel load needed, etc etc etc. The price of FE belief is that the world is false. Yet airliners arrive when and where they said they would.

I would be fascinated to know how things work on FE. Gyrocompass, sextant, gps, etc etc etc.

11
##### Flat Earth General / Re: Q, Antarctica, and FE
« on: July 06, 2021, 01:50:05 PM »
FE approved reality? I have tried for years to figure out the precise reality of FE. After much effort, someone finally admitted, the only thing that all FEs agree on, the only thing they will stand behind as absolutely true, is that the earth is not round. Could be any other shape. Everything is speculative.

I came to FE years ago, looking to check that my RE belief wasn't wrong. Since then, there has been zero progress. No map, no explanation of how and why the light bends. It is all about finding joles in the RE story and speculation how things could be on FE.

RE has a single model, they have gos, they have US geodetic survey, they have Newton and Einstein matching up to observed reality, etc etc etc. FE has some guy in Australia with a swinging gate.

So yes, it is about having a large group insisting on FE. You need a large group when your premise is false, otherwise, you look like an idiot.

12
##### Flat Earth General / Re: NASAs Budget Accounting
« on: July 05, 2021, 11:44:19 AM »
I agree. There is much public knowledge about nasa, and if the idea that it is a nasa conspuracy is true, there has to be a connection. Otherwise, it's not a nasa conspiracy. But if no one at nasa is involved, what of space flight? What are they doing, what do they think they are doing, and who controls it?

Perhaps we can never know any of the details. Perhaps we can never know anything except that we exist (Des Carte) and the earth is not round. Everything else is a complicated impenetrable mystery? Rowbotham made the only possible discovery? All that is left for science is endless speculation on FE web site with no conclusion ever possible?

13
##### Flat Earth General / Q, Antarctica, and FE
« on: July 05, 2021, 11:36:46 AM »
Given the importance of Antarctica to FE, the NASA ice patrol, the dome lands there, no one can go there, or I would like to inform/ask questions re Q info that I have learned from youtube videos from Q people.

The video said there were tunnels in Antarctica and 70 bases, including a base for the "dark fleet", one for the reptile overlords, and many German bases containing "lots of nazis". Interesting, FE says no one there to explain, while Q uses Antarctica as a secret base for everything they can't explain. Meanwhile, there are researchers, weather stations, and tourist from the real world community. Three different realities, and none of us can personally check.

My question is whether this is a failure of the nasa ice wall patrol, or are they part of the same thing?

Seems like Q believers would be likely to consider FE and vice versa. Both groups would be stronger with each other, has FE considered merging with Q? FE has a well developed technique for avoiding answers and explaining seemingly impossible things, seems like that would be useful to Q. Q has way more people than FE. I think it would be a simple thing to put FE into the Q echo chamber, and suddenly Q people would hear from multiple sources that the earth is flat. Their standard of truth is hearing something from several Q people.

Any FE want to approach the Q people about a cross-marketing agreement?

14
##### Flat Earth General / Re: NASAs Budget Accounting
« on: July 04, 2021, 05:23:19 PM »
i posted here looking for FE to go through the org chart on the NASA web site and figure out which of the execs were in the cabal. No interest. Sometimes I think FEs don't actually want to figure out the details. I guess they are generalists.

I also asked whether the people at SpaceX were in on it. Seems a sensitive situation, Blue Origin, Spacex, Virgin Orbit, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies

Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Richard Branson, what did they know, when will they find out, what will be the truth about their spaceflight?

In the end, perhaps all we can know is the earth is not round? I never get the details, that would be fascinating.

15
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« on: July 04, 2021, 12:43:51 PM »
Anyone here ever take some hits of pot and then go on a whack web site to troll people? Some might find that enjoyable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

What are the odds? I gave it 50/50 until the smoking snake pic, now 99/1.

Either way, Danang will not be educated nor change his mind. All he will ever do is repeat the same stuff.

16
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« on: July 04, 2021, 10:56:17 AM »
The formula is:

Join a group of people who believe a conspiracy - FE is at heart, a conspiracy, NASA science teachers, whoever has to be lying.

Believe it intensely and without doubt - faith - as a given.

Reject all contrary information - fake news, refuse to understand or recognize the evidence - Zetetic, come up with FExplanations - conspiracy.

There is no arguing with motivated reasoning, it inevitably finds a way to maintain faith. If no reasonable FExplanation is possible, any string of words will do.

Or simply ignore and don't answer.

17
##### Flat Earth Debate / FE map with scale
« on: July 03, 2021, 07:03:46 PM »
I need a FE map with scale. Does anyone have one? If we have no scale, we can't determine if the map is accurate.

Anyone?

18
##### Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Anyone change their mind on global warming?
« on: July 03, 2021, 06:45:35 PM »
Who cares anything about Al Gore. Portland Or was 116, Lytton BC was 118, and it's June.

Is there someone here who used to think that AGW was fake news and has changed their mind?

19
##### Technology, Science & Alt Science / Re: Anyone change their mind on global warming?
« on: July 03, 2021, 11:40:50 AM »
Al Gore has been demonized by the right. From a statement by the two computer guys who did "invent" the internet:

Al Gore and the Internet

By Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf

Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the
Internet and to promote and support its development.

No one person or even small group of persons exclusively "invented" the
Internet. It is the result of many years of ongoing collaboration among
people in government and the university community.  But as the two people
who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the
Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore's contributions as a
Congressman, Senator and as Vice President.  No other elected official, to
our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of
time.

You got the internet years earlier than without Al Gore because he saw what it could be right away. He was the leader of making it a public facility. He saw Arpanet and realized the potential of it, in a sense, he did invent it as a public facility.

I saw a ten year update on Gore's movie. It showed predictions from it, intercut with video of the predictions coming true. For example, the subways did flood, remember? Even if he got something wrong, he was right about the basic idea. Anyone who wants to continue to deny will have more and more to explain, just like FE.

20
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: geometry question
« on: July 03, 2021, 11:16:17 AM »
Won't work. YOU have to be physically in both places. All else can be faked. Duh. Zetetic invalidates all information except that the ground around you is flat and nothing is moving. Or maybe UA is happening and you experience that as gravity. In any case, you can't disprove FE because Zetetic invalidates all.

Interestingly, Zetetic does not invalidate Rowbotham, Michaelson-Morley, or indeed any FE book, video, or whatever. Just RE.

21
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: Is it time to reflect?
« on: July 03, 2021, 11:08:20 AM »
I am just sad that Bullwinkle did not answer "Yes". "No" would also be a funny answer.

22
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« on: July 03, 2021, 11:04:40 AM »
The basic question here is can information from other people and/or technical instruments be trusted? On the one hand, people have lied or been mistaken, for sure. Technical instruments can be broken or improperly designed. A person can be delusional, hypnotized, tricked, etc, consider optical illusions. So in absolute (Descartean) terms, one can't know anything except that they exist to ask the question "What do I know?" This is called Solipsism. It is the pure form of Zetetic. You can't know anything.

In daily life, you must trust people, instruments and your senses. FEs use GPS, travel on airliners, etc etc etc, all the time. All day you get info from others, use technical instruments, it all works, everyday life is the opposite of Solipsism/Zetetic.

Solipsism has two uses. The first is late night rambling philosophy discussions over a bong in a college dorm.

The main reason for this concept is to dismiss contrary evidence for people who wish ti dismiss evidence of something. For example, a FE told me I can't say the southern cross is visible from Sydney, Buenos Aires, and Capetown at the same time but in completely different directions because I couldn't be in all three places at the same time. Ta-da! RE proof prevented!

They are like the ghosts jumping from subway car to subway car, they can go right through the sides, but the floor hods them up. Whatever is necessary for the narrative, consistency checking to invalidate the system not done.

So I have seen the southern cross, although only from one place at a time, but I feel pretty safe in thinking it true that the southern cross is visible to all in the southern hemisphere and RE geometry explains that while the FE map makes no sense and requires unproven and improbable explanations. Notice that the people who will dismiss evidence of RE based on "you can't know that" will accept explanations "well, it could be" in other cases. Whatever is needed to protect the narrative.

That is the technique of FE. Solipsism/Zetetic to dismiss contrary evidence and infinite possibility to allow their explanations.

23
##### Technology, Science & Alt Science / Anyone change their mind on global warming?
« on: July 03, 2021, 10:11:16 AM »
Is there anyone here who used to think that global warming was a lie but now sees that 116 degrees in Portland is not normal, not "just weather"?

If you have not changed your mind, how hot would it have to get in Portland for you to believe that global warming is happening? 125? 130? 135?

After all, by Zetetic principles, you weren't in Portland, so you don't really know, do you? It cold have been 20 below zero and fake news.

24
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: geometry question
« on: June 24, 2021, 07:13:51 PM »
Anywhere close to south is the same problem for considering a polar projection map. What I am looking for is an explanation of how anything generally south is seen from Capetown and Sydney in opposite directions. Like my two previous questions, I expect FEs will not decide this is a question they don't want to answer.

25
##### Philosophy, Religion & Society / psychology and sociology of major belief groups
« on: June 24, 2021, 04:16:43 PM »
There is a concept called the 3 "C"s - conviction, conspiracy, community. There are groups of people who think that experts, officials, institutions are liars/stupid. You start with an idea that is false according to conventional experts and authorities, but you don't just think it is true, you are utterly convinced and unwilling to even consider the possibility that experts are right. You need community, because if it was just one person, everyone would think you were crazy. With a community of believers, you can assure each other that you are right. They usually exaggerate the size of their community.

For example, #stopthesteal. They think they are the majority, deep state, they are a community, and they will not even consider the possibility that Republican election officials in GA and AZ are just telling the truth. QANON is another example.

Conviction - Trump won, they knew he would even before the election and will not consider the possibility he lost. Because they are so certain, it becomes a fact you can use in your argument (assuming the conclusion). As in "Trump won, so we know there were shenanigans, even if we haven't found them yet.

Conspiracy - Deep state, necessary to explain why republican election officials would insist Biden won and why we can't find evidence Cnspiracies are secret, duh, you know them because they got the wrong result. how and why are guesses)

Community - If it was one person, just some kook. But with millions, that alone means there's something there. How could millions be upset if no problem?

Can anyone think of another 3C group? People who believe experts and conventional knowledge is wrong, are utterly convinced and will not consider the possibility they are wrong, explaining the discrepancy with reality by conspiracy?

Homework:

Identify a group of people who dismiss experts and conventional knowledge, refuse to accept the possibility that their idea is wrong and explain the discrepancy with generally accepted reality by conspiracy?

Hmmm, let me think ... Where would I find such a group?

26
##### Flat Earth Debate / geometry question
« on: June 24, 2021, 03:47:47 PM »

I have been to Sydney, Capetown, and Buenos Aires. From each of these places I have seen the southern cross directly south of me. On FE map, this places the southern cross in very different directions. I understand from prior FE conversations that doesn't prove RE because I wasn't in two of those places at the same time and I can't trust information from other people, so I can't say that it appears in two different directions at the same time, it could be a conspiracy or big mistake that everyone in the southern hemisphere thinks it is directly south to all of them every night. That is not my question.

My question is, if Sydney, Capetown, and Buenos Aires were in the southern hemisphere of a round earth, and the southern cross was in the direction of the southern pole many millions of miles away, would people in these cities all see the southern cross directly south with no bending of light or unknown physics? Seems so, please explain if my geometry has a problem. Does RE geometry work to explain southern cross directly south everywhere in the southern hemisphere?

27
##### Flat Earth Debate / Re: Flat Earth Maps?
« on: June 24, 2021, 02:21:28 PM »
How to make a FE map:

Case 1, all distances are as published: Protractor and piece of paper. Start with London and measure Capetown scaled difference away. I suggest a scale of 1 inch to 1000 miles. Now set the protractor to the scaled distance to Tokyo from London and draw a circle that diameter, then set to Capetown to Tokyo distance and draw that circle around Capetown. Where these circles cross is where Tokyo is. Now do the same with Capetwon, again a circle around each of the cities you have already plotted with radius the distance from each to Capetown. Just keep doing that for many cities.

You will be finding the point that is a known distance from all other points. I would think 20 or 30 cities would let you see what the one true FE map looks like. Share the result on this web site. You will be the most famlus FE ever.

Case 2, published distances are not right: No one can make a map unless they know those distances. No map of any kind is possible.

28
##### Flat Earth General / Re: Map Making
« on: June 24, 2021, 01:58:07 PM »
Shifter,

The polar projection map most often shown by FE has Australia as much wider than USA. I have never seen a FE map with constant scale that does not distort known distances. You have a computer, the internet, there is free graphics software. What is the problem? Why is there not one accurate FE map with constant scale? Why are there many, all wrong?

The distances are published in google maps, airline schedules, web sites, etc. What's the holdup? Where's the map?

If you don't believe the published distances, what of the US Navy? Does the whole US Navy know the earth is flat and what the real distances are, or do they not know, just guessing on schedules and navigation? Airline pilots? They know and are part of the conspiracy, using wrong distances, or just guessing?

29
##### Flat Earth Debate / Raleigh scattering
« on: June 22, 2021, 05:27:41 PM »
The reason the sky is light blue all day over the entire dome, even at dawn or dusk, is Raleigh scattering. The blue wavelength is subject to bouncing off molecules in the air, while longer wave lengths are not. The sun appears to be yellow orange because that is the color left that does not get scattered after the blue is subtracted by the scattering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_scattering

My question is why this scattering ends so abruptly at sunset. On FE, the sun is still up there, we know that Raleigh works over the entire distance across the dome, we all see it everyday, scattering works over the longest distance possible on FE. So what stops the scattering after sunset until dawn?

30
##### Flat Earth Debate / Sunset in Denver
« on: June 22, 2021, 05:06:55 PM »
At sunset in Denver, in Salt Lake City the dome is light blue in every direction. At that same moment in Kansas City the sky is dark over the entire dome, with stars, including where the sun is. Think about someone in Salt Lake City looking at the dome directly over Denver at the same time as a person looking at the same exact place will see darkness. The angle between the viewpoints to the dome directly over Denver is 30 degrees.

I would like either a reasonable explanation of how this could be on FE, or an admission that FE does not know how this works.

Additionally, I submit that RE geometry and physics explains this. Seems to me FEW believes something seemingly impossible without equation, theory, or experiment, while RE explains this quite reasonably. Why reject this explanation?

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