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Messages - Stash

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1

No, that is a fallacy. We're good as things are and how the entire world works. If you were 100% right, even 10%, 1%, you would revolutionize the entire world. Not just a piece of it, but the entire shooting match. So far, I see no takers. We're good, you offer nothing better.
No problem. Carry on accepting what you follow. I'm fine with it.

Apparently the entire globe is fine with it. Otherwise, a smart person would take you up on your notions and be like, "We could revolutionize everything!" But you don't have a consistent model and no way to engineer any of it into something workable so we're kind of left with meh. And everyone is still designing, engineering everything against your notions. Not just rockets, but pneumatics, hydraulics, anything that lifts or moves something. The whole world is still building all those tools the old fashioned way based upon, according to you, incorrect mechanics. Yet they work, and work very well. Somehow, haphazardly, the world's designers and engineers have figured out how to create devices that work in exactly the opposite way that they designed them to work. And they still work and how they do it is an absolute mystery to them. Makes total sense...

2
A pressure reading on a gauge shows the pressure on the gauge.
 It's called a pressure gauge because it registers pressure on the gauge.
Correct, no issues.

Quote from: Stash
If there is no pressure, the pressure gauge registers 0.
Correct, no issues.

Quote from: Stash

 If there is pressure on the gauge, the gauge registers the pressure on the gauge greater than 0.
Correct, as long as the pressure is applying as in pushed in continually and advancing the gauge reading.......or if the pressure reading higher than zero is contained.

I'm fine with either.

Quote from: Stash

Are you seriously trying to state that if a pressure gauge shows greater than 0 there is no pressure applied to the gauge?
It depends.
As above, there would be pressure.
However, if their is a breach/open valve for decompression then the gauge is not being pushed against to make any higher reading or set reading. It's merely counter moving to follow that decompression.
What kind of voodoo is, "a breach/open valve for decompression then the gauge is not being pushed against to make any higher reading or set reading. It's merely counter moving to follow that decompression."?

What in the world does "counter moving to follow that decompression," mean?

It's a gauge. It shows the pressure against it as it is building, it show's the pressure against it at it lessens. That's what a gauge does. If it shows a reading, it is showing pressure, up or down. Hence the name, 'pressure gauge'. 'Counter moving to follow that decompression', means literally nothing and not what a gauge does, whatever that means. "Counter moving"? You're literally making things up.

A pressure reading on a pressure gauge shows the pressure on the gauge. There's no 'counter moving' bullshit.

3
Quote from: Stash
- Open the valve on the container, according to scepti, it should still register pressure on the opposite end (where the gauge is) yet not be applying any pressure to the gauge. Magic.
It's not registering pressure. The needle is on the counter movement consistently due to the vale being opened at the other end.

That's not a reading of pressure it's a needle decline in numbers only, by sight.

What in the world are you talking about?

Quote from: Stash
This is so logically inconsistent it's beyond compare. Pick a lane. And don't go down the "we don't get it thing..." That's tired and haggard. And inappropriate. We get it. It's literally that your explanations are inconsistent with reality and with themselves. They are contradictions.
It's logically consistent. There's no contradictions except for the one's you and others believe there are.

If you were 100% sure I was wrong you would not be entertaining arguing my theory.

No, that is a fallacy. We're good as things are and how the entire world works. If you were 100% right, even 10%, 1%, you would revolutionize the entire world. Not just a piece of it, but the entire shooting match. So far, I see no takers. We're good, you offer nothing better.

4
When air ceases to press on the gauge it shows zero.
Only if it showed zero to start with.
If not then the gauge would simply show a consistent counter action of the needle as the molecules decompress away from pushing it.

Quote from: Themightykabool
If some presses on the gauge it shows a reading.
Yep, which would happen if pressure is held against it, as in pushing air into it  or pushing air into it and containing that air.
Not when air is allowed to decompress.

Quote from: Themightykabool
If your spring fully compressed showed a reading of 16 units.
And you opened the one end and allowed the spring to decompress half way, cut the spring, closed the cap, the gauge would read 4.(because conventional physics uses the sq law).
Yep, because you have allowed decompression of the spring and then stopped it and sealed it, meaning that spring now shows the reading right after that decompression of the moving needle that has now stopped counter moving, leaving a set reading much smaller.

I have no issue with this.

A pressure reading on a gauge shows the pressure on the gauge. It's called a pressure gauge because it registers pressure on the gauge. If there is no pressure, the pressure gauge registers 0. If there is pressure on the gauge, the gauge registers the pressure on the gauge greater than 0.

Are you seriously trying to state that if a pressure gauge shows greater than 0 there is no pressure applied to the gauge?

5
Here is another simple diagram for you to get completely wrong:

This is a membrane being pushed to the right by a spring.
If there is nothing pushing it to the left, what would happen?
Will it very quickly go to the right until the spring has relaxed?
Or will it go very slowly?
Or will it magically depend upon something else?
It depends what you are talking about in terms of what is actually behind the membrane.
If it's air behind it then it will be compressed by the decompression of the spring. In which case the spring will start of fairly rapid in decompression and then gradually slow as the air is compressed by it.

If there is extreme low pressure of air behind that membrane then the spring will rapidly expand into it  because there's extremely tiny resistance.

How is a spring like a gas? A spring is expandable end to end. A gas is expandable in all directions. The two seem yards apart as far as analogies go.

6
To stash s point

A ballloon slowly deflating shows the air inside is still pushing on the edges.
If it werent, the balloon would instantly collapse.
Scepti keeps flip flopping wjen addrsssing tjis point.

Totally different argument.

It's literally the same argument. Yet another contradiction.

- Air in a balloon pushing on all sides
- Compressed gas in a container pushing on all sides

- Open the valve on the balloon, according to scepti, it should instantaneously collapse. It doesn't.
- Open the valve on the container, according to scepti, it should still register pressure on the opposite end (where the gauge is) yet not be applying any pressure to the gauge. Magic.

This is so logically inconsistent it's beyond compare. Pick a lane. And don't go down the "we don't get it thing..." That's tired and haggard. And inappropriate. We get it. It's literally that your explanations are inconsistent with reality and with themselves. They are contradictions.


7
The way you're likely looking at it is in thinking that once the exit is opened the gases are still pushing in opposite direction against each end of the tank.
They aren't.
They are using the energy applied to them in terms of being compressed and are now decompressing naturally but are still all attached.

Ok, Y/N didn't work.

If the gauge at the top still registers pressure, pressure is being applied the the gauge. That's what a pressure gauge does, it registers pressure. If it's 0, there is no pressure. If it's more than 0 there is. And if it's more than 0 pressure its pushing against the gauge. I don't know how to make that more clear.
The pressure when set was potential energy reading.
Once the valve is opened the potential energy is now flowing energy in a decompression chain reaction.

In other words all the arrows are pointing towards the exit in their many many different expansion rates from exit hole to gauge.
The gauge starts to show a consistent drop in pressure because there's no pressure applied to that gauge from the gas molecules (arrows).

All the arrows are not pointing to the exit otherwise:

- There would be no reading on the top gauge. Remember, a gauge measures pressure. If the pressure is above 0, there is still pressure.
- A balloon would instantaneously collapse and lose it's shape when the valve opened. It does not

Again, you can't have the contradiction:

When the valve is opened, there is no pressure on the gauge yet it shows pressure on the gauge.

8
The way you're likely looking at it is in thinking that once the exit is opened the gases are still pushing in opposite direction against each end of the tank.
They aren't.
They are using the energy applied to them in terms of being compressed and are now decompressing naturally but are still all attached.

Ok, Y/N didn't work.

If the gauge at the top still registers pressure, pressure is being applied the the gauge. That's what a pressure gauge does, it registers pressure. If it's 0, there is no pressure. If it's more than 0 there is. And if it's more than 0 pressure its pushing against the gauge. I don't know how to make that more clear.


9
Wouldn't a list of simple yes-no questions be useful here?

We've kind of gone there already, but it doesn't seem to work, hence the contradictions. Feel free to start things off though. I'm at a loss.

I guess my first would be:

The container is breached, valve opened, on the bottom end. The pressure gauge still has a reading as it ticks down to 0
- Is there still pressure being applied to the pressure gauge at the top as the needle is moving down toward 0? Y/N
- If the pressure gauge is still showing a pressure above zero is there not pressure pressing on the gauge to do so? Y/N

10


Right, but you just said this: "There is nothing pushing back at the gauge."

Now you're saying this: "Is why the gauge shows a reading. Because something is pushing on it."

How is that not a contradiction? Which is it?
Because you're getting mixed up with a sealed pressurised container and an open end container.
The sealed pressurised container with the gauge will naturally read a set pressure because it literally is gas pushing gas pushing container and gauge, in equal terms.


I'm talking about the decompression of it by opening the exit valve.
Deal with the exit valve opening and forget about the sealed pressure for now.

We've dealt with what you think happens at the exit valve end. What you haven't dealt with is what happens at the gauge end. In one breath you're saying there is no pressure on the gauge end, yet the gauge reads pressure, and in another breath you're saying there is pressure at the gauge end, hence it's properly reading a pressure. A contradiction.

11


Again, logically, this makes no sense. If the gauge is reading anything, there is pressure causing the reading. That's the sole purpose of a gauge. If there is no pressure, the gauge reads 0.
It doesn't make sense to you because you're refusing to allow it to.

You refuse to understand that the expansion of molecules out of the opening means there is a chain reaction of expansion all the way to the back in different stages of expansion from larger at the front to smaller at the back.
All molecules using each other.

As each bunch of molecules expand, the gauge simple expands with them and starts to slowly move towards the zero, until expansion ceases.

There is nothing pushing back at the gauge. The gauge itself is decompressing along with the decompressing gas molecules.

If there is no pressure against the pressure gauge the pressure gauge reads 0. That's what pressure gauges do, they read pressure. Anything above 0 is pressure.

When you yank the hose of your bicycle tire pump off the tire, the gauge doesn't go down in a progressive manner, it immediately jams down to 0. If it read anything above 0 there is still pressure, hence a pressure reading above 0.

If you were able to plug the tube end up mid flight, the pressure reading would show a pressure because there are still compressed spongss in the tube and these sponges are pushing out in alk directions.
All directions.
Is why the gauge shows a reading.
Because something is pushing on it.

Right, but you just said this: "There is nothing pushing back at the gauge."

Now you're saying this: "Is why the gauge shows a reading. Because something is pushing on it."

How is that not a contradiction? Which is it?


12
The Lounge / Re: Werepenguin: MafiaBirds - The Game Thread [Night]
« on: November 13, 2019, 05:38:31 PM »

13
The Lounge / Re: Werepenguin: MafiaBirds - The Game Thread [Night]
« on: November 13, 2019, 05:36:14 PM »
Here, have some candy corn.

Well at least there's your fried candy corn chicken wings to look forward to.

14
The Lounge / Re: Werepenguin: MafiaBirds - The Game Thread [Night]
« on: November 13, 2019, 05:14:48 PM »
FFS people!

15
The Lounge / Re: Werepenguin: MafiaBirds - The Game Thread [Day]
« on: November 13, 2019, 04:18:24 PM »
Good to know.

In any case, here are the scenarios prior to my vote:

Stash - 2

1) I vote to cancel a vote against me = Stash - 1 with NSS still to vote
1A) NSS does not vote = I die
1B) NSS votes to lynch me = I die
1C) NSS votes to lynch someone else = Tie, no one dies

2) I vote to lynch someone, in this case DD = Stash - 2, DD -1
2A) NSS does not vote = I die
2B) NSS votes to lynch me = I die
2C) NSS votes to lynch someone else other than DD = I die
2D) NSS votes to lynch DD = Tie, no one dies

3) I don't vote. Stash - 2
3A) NSS does not vote = I die
3B) NSS votes to lynch me = I die
3C) NSS votes to lynch someone else = I die

3 is a non-starter.

Edit: Bollocks!

2) I vote to lynch someone, in this case DD = Stash - 2, DD -1
2A) NSS does not vote = I die



16


Again, logically, this makes no sense. If the gauge is reading anything, there is pressure causing the reading. That's the sole purpose of a gauge. If there is no pressure, the gauge reads 0.
It doesn't make sense to you because you're refusing to allow it to.

You refuse to understand that the expansion of molecules out of the opening means there is a chain reaction of expansion all the way to the back in different stages of expansion from larger at the front to smaller at the back.
All molecules using each other.

As each bunch of molecules expand, the gauge simple expands with them and starts to slowly move towards the zero, until expansion ceases.

There is nothing pushing back at the gauge. The gauge itself is decompressing along with the decompressing gas molecules.

If there is no pressure against the pressure gauge the pressure gauge reads 0. That's what pressure gauges do, they read pressure. Anything above 0 is pressure.

When you yank the hose of your bicycle tire pump off the tire, the gauge doesn't go down in a progressive manner, it immediately jams down to 0. If it read anything above 0 there is still pressure, hence a pressure reading above 0. 

17
The Lounge / Re: Werepenguin: MafiaBirds - The Game Thread [Day]
« on: November 13, 2019, 03:57:34 PM »
Dammit, Stash... You are the goth, aren't you..... There is no possibility to lynch DD today otherwise I would have pushed for that. The only remaining possible vote today is NSS. So now you either get lynched or it is a tie.

At this point, if NSS stops by he should go ahead and vote Stash which is what the council wanted to do (and I apparently should have just listened...). If Stash is the goth, then he won't be able to vote during the next day cycle if he gets lynched, so we can finish off DD 3-1 once DD kills someone overnight. If somehow Stash just made a goof (and dies) and there is a different living goth, then #teamevil wins.

I didn't think I could vote to cancel my own lynching, so I voted for DD. If I didn't vote, no matter how NSS votes, I die. Now at least if NSS votes to lynch DD, we have another day to get our collective shit together and get DD. If DD is, in fact, the Don.

Cancel your own lynching? Are you the magician then?

No, I mean I didn't think I could vote like Junker did, e.g., "I vote to cancel a vote against Stash"

18

If the gauge is still registering pressure after the breach then pressure must still be exerting on the gauge for it to have a reading.
Only if the gauge reading shows gain or still pressure.
In case of the breach it does neither. It shows continuous loss.

Quote from: Stash
So how can you say on the the one hand, the gauge is still reading pressure after the breach yet on the other hand no pressure is being applied to the gauge after the breach?
I didn't say it was still reading pressure. I said the pointer shows a lowering of the pressure by the pointer in a continuous motion, meaning it flows/expands away from the gauge, not at it.

If the gauge is showing pressure, whether it's going down, up, or remaining the same, it is still showing pressure, pressure that is still pushing against the gauge no matter how strong or weak, it's still registering pressure.
It isn't pushing against the gauge at this point, unless the valve is closed and expansion is stopped and so would the needle, which means the pressure becomes equalised inside the container and shows as a still needle reading..

Again, logically, this makes no sense. If the gauge is reading anything, there is pressure causing the reading. That's the sole purpose of a gauge. If there is no pressure, the gauge reads 0.

19
The Lounge / Re: Werepenguin: MafiaBirds - The Game Thread [Day]
« on: November 13, 2019, 03:41:12 PM »
Dammit, Stash... You are the goth, aren't you..... There is no possibility to lynch DD today otherwise I would have pushed for that. The only remaining possible vote today is NSS. So now you either get lynched or it is a tie.

At this point, if NSS stops by he should go ahead and vote Stash which is what the council wanted to do (and I apparently should have just listened...). If Stash is the goth, then he won't be able to vote during the next day cycle if he gets lynched, so we can finish off DD 3-1 once DD kills someone overnight. If somehow Stash just made a goof (and dies) and there is a different living goth, then #teamevil wins.

I didn't think I could vote to cancel my own lynching, so I voted for DD. If I didn't vote, no matter how NSS votes, I die. Now at least if NSS votes to lynch DD, we have another day to get our collective shit together and get DD. If DD is, in fact, the Don.

20

If the gauge is still registering pressure after the breach then pressure must still be exerting on the gauge for it to have a reading.
Only if the gauge reading shows gain or still pressure.
In case of the breach it does neither. It shows continuous loss.

Quote from: Stash
So how can you say on the the one hand, the gauge is still reading pressure after the breach yet on the other hand no pressure is being applied to the gauge after the breach?
I didn't say it was still reading pressure. I said the pointer shows a lowering of the pressure by the pointer in a continuous motion, meaning it flows/expands away from the gauge, not at it.

If the gauge is showing pressure, whether it's going down, up, or remaining the same, it is still showing pressure, pressure that is still pushing against the gauge no matter how strong or weak, it's still registering pressure.

21
Quote from: Stash
The valve is opened. The pressure gauge on top starts to drop as gas is exiting the valve. If the gauge is still registering a drop and doesn't instantaneously go right to zero:
And nor should it.
In reality, yes, as the pressure is still pushing on the gauge, because it doesn't just magically go straight out towards the opening and stopping every other direction.
For your model, it should go to 0, because you claim that the pressure is no longer pushing against it and thus the pressure it is measuring is 0.

You seriously need to make up your mind.
Is the pressure still pushing upwards on the gauge allowing it to read a pressure, or is it only pushing towards the opening, meaning no pressure on the gauge, meaning the gauge will read 0?

I don't need to make up my mind. It's made up and is consistent.
You simply refuse to grasp it.

Once the valve is opened the gauge now starts to reads a continuous lowering of pressure on the gauge. It means the gauge is not under pressure, it's losing that pressure because everything is expanding out.

How?
Massive expansion at the valve opening and gradually less expansion of molecules all the way to close to the gauge side, all pushing one way, which is why the gauge pointer continues to read lower and lower pressure.

That literally makes no logical sense. The gauge wouldn't read any pressure if it wasn't under some pressure. Hence the name, "pressure gauge".

If the gauge is not under pressure, it would immediately read 0.

22
The Lounge / Re: Werepenguin: MafiaBirds - The Game Thread [Day]
« on: November 13, 2019, 03:12:50 PM »
If we lynch DD and DD turns out to be a villager, we'll know the truth about Junker and still have a shot at winning. If DD turns out to be the Don, then we win!

[I vote to lynch DD]

Stash - 2
DD - 1

23
Quote from: Stash
The valve is opened. The pressure gauge on top starts to drop as gas is exiting the valve. If the gauge is still registering a drop and doesn't instantaneously go right to zero:
And nor should it.

Contradiction:

Quote from: Stash
Pressure is still pushing off the top of the container where the gauge is which means the pressure is pushing against the container.

Not when it's breached.

If the gauge is still registering pressure after the breach then pressure must still be exerting on the gauge for it to have a reading. So how can you say on the the one hand, the gauge is still reading pressure after the breach yet on the other hand no pressure is being applied to the gauge after the breach?

24

No it's not showing what you are saying is correct because you're not addressing the issue with it. The issue is the gas it is still applying pressure on all sides when the container is breached at one end. You have admitted to this by the gauge at the top end dropping, not immediately going to zero.


You not understanding this means we need to concentrate on this instead of you getting way beyond yourself.
You argue there's a push at each end when there's is a breach at one end.
You placed the gauge scenario at the closed end to try and back up your theory.
I shot it down by telling you the gauge pressure lowers.
Now you've changed up to a balloon and are arguing that against this container.
They're two entirely different things.

So let's deal with one thing at a time.
Let's deal with the gauge and container and why the gauge pointer shows a lesser pressure as the opposite end valve is opened.

 I explained what happens, now tell me why you think I'm wrong.

Fair enough, I explained what I was asking for, but I probably muddied it with the balloon. So back to the container with the valve on one end, the gauge on the other.

The gauge at the top registers the internal pressure, the valve at the bottom is closed. Pressure inside is pushing in all directions within the container. The valve is opened. The pressure gauge on top starts to drop as gas is exiting the valve. If the gauge is still registering a drop and doesn't instantaneously go right to zero:

Pressure is still pushing off the top of the container where the gauge is which means the pressure is pushing against the container. If it's pushing against the container, the container can move. If the container can move, it can move side to side, up, down, depending upon which way it's oriented. If the container can move by being pushed from the pressure on the inside it doesn't need to push off the atmosphere to move.

You need to explain how there can be pressure pressing on all sides of the inside of the container and NOT getting a push as a result. What negates the push? Where does that pressure go?

25




The spring doesn't explain it. It is still applying pressure to the closed end. If you opened both ends at the same time, the spring would shoot out both ends.
If you opened both ends on a gas container, the gas would expand both ways from each breach.
But this is not what we're debating.
All you seem to be doing here is dismissing the spring because it shows what I'm actually saying to be correct.



Quote from: Stash
What you can't explain is why with a gas it is still applying pressure on all sides when the container is breached at one end. And if it's applying pressure on all sides it is pushing. Hence the balloon does not immediately collapse when an end is opened.



Your spring does not cover this scenario. So what does? Think about it carefully.
The spring does cover it, only this time it's about the gas or atmospheric air pressure.
[/quote]

No it's not showing what you are saying is correct because you're not addressing the issue with it. The issue is the gas it is still applying pressure on all sides when the container is breached at one end. You have admitted to this by the gauge at the top end dropping, not immediately going to zero.  And if it's applying pressure on all sides it is pushing. And as evidenced by the fact that the balloon does not immediately collapse when an end is opened. So it's pushing off of all sides, therefore it's pushing off the top. Which you had previously said it was not. But it is.

If it's pushing off the top of the container then it is pushing the container. If it's pushing the container, the container can move. If the container can move, it can move side to side, up, down, depending upon which way it's oriented. If the container can move by being pushed from the pressure on the inside it doesn't need to push off the atmosphere to move.

You meed to explain how there can be pressure pressing on all sides of the inside of the container and NOT getting a push as a result. What negates the push?

26
The Lounge / Re: Werepenguin: MafiaBirds - The Game Thread [Day]
« on: November 12, 2019, 05:24:49 PM »
Holy flambé! Crouton was made into a crouton!


27
The Lounge / Re: Werepenguin: MafiaBirds - The Game Thread [Night]
« on: November 12, 2019, 04:15:30 PM »


Since Stash is tripping balls,  he should watch this a day early.

I thought my Castanedian inspired spirit animal was a panther, but now that I'm peaking and after watching this I'm pretty sure it's a frog from tomorrow. Oh lawdy me, what hath I wrought...I need some Portishead to talk me down.

28

I did pay attention to your diagram. And your diagram still doesn't address the fact that the pressure inside the container is still pushing off all sides even when the valve is opened. So it's pushing. Even from the gauge side.
It's not pushing off all sides.

Once there is a breach the pushing is all expansion to the breach, in turn.
Think of it like a funnel.

Then the gauge at the top would immediately show zero pressure. It wouldn't drop. If it immediately when to zero, a balloon would immediately completely collapse when the end is opened. Please explain how there can still be pressure yet it has decided not to be pushing in all directions?
To do that you'll have to start looking at how a spring works.

Take a look at this spring being allowed to expand out of the front and also take a look at the untethered back end of the spring.
It is not compressing against the back of the magazine. It follows an expansion out of the magazine.

This is what gas does on expansion.

Think about it carefully.



The spring doesn't explain it. It is still applying pressure to the closed end. If you opened both ends at the same time, the spring would shoot out both ends.

What you can't explain is why with a gas it is still applying pressure on all sides when the container is breached at one end. And if it's applying pressure on all sides it is pushing. Hence the balloon does not immediately collapse when an end is opened.



Your spring does not cover this scenario. So what does? Think about it carefully.

29

I did pay attention to your diagram. And your diagram still doesn't address the fact that the pressure inside the container is still pushing off all sides even when the valve is opened. So it's pushing. Even from the gauge side.
It's not pushing off all sides.

Once there is a breach the pushing is all expansion to the breach, in turn.
Think of it like a funnel.

Then the gauge at the top would immediately show zero pressure. It wouldn't drop. If it immediately when to zero, a balloon would immediately completely collapse when the end is opened. Please explain how there can still be pressure yet it has decided not to be pushing in all directions? 

30
The Lounge / Re: Werepenguin: MafiaBirds - The Game Thread [Night]
« on: November 12, 2019, 02:15:29 PM »

Something for Stash to chill to.



Nothing like a bean bag chair, black light, and headphones filled with 90's electronica...I think I just saw my animal spirit.

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