1

Flat Earth Q&A / Bad science

« on: October 03, 2006, 02:31:59 AM »

Does FE really even qualify as science?  I mean, has anyone put these FE 'theories' to the test?  As far as I'm concerned, FE is a belief, not a theory.

Indeed, I generiously call it a hypothosis, but in reality it is not any more than an irrational belief, much like belief in god, but at least the religious admit they're believers, and don't pose their ideas as science (except for IDers, but that's a whole other thread).

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Flat Earth Q&A / Re: An experiment you can try (with a little money)

« on: October 02, 2006, 01:37:52 PM »

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~cuspaceflight/nova1selected/

I posted a thread on this already: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5058
The flat earhers have no reply.

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Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Experiments!

« on: October 01, 2006, 11:48:53 AM »

Items 1, 2 & 3 have been done on this board to exhaustion, does anybody have any ideas for inexpensive experiments that could be conducted by individuals in support of either theory?

Yes, see this thread: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5058
The expriments have been done for under £1000, and the curvature of the earth is there for all to see.

4

Flat Earth Q&A / Questions for Round Earth arguers

« on: September 27, 2006, 03:55:35 AM »

The more people who show up at this website stunned at our arrogance and driven by an urge to prove us wrong, who go and read some books written by actual scientists, who learn something about physics or geology or astronomy, and who convince themselves rationally that the the Earth is round, the more reasonable people we have sitting on school boards and ethics committees and the closer to utopia we will be.

How I wish this was true, unfortunatly there are a large number of dumb, gullible people in the world; unfortunatly they also have internet access. it'll only take a few of people to find Biblical quotes and set up some foundation to take the message to the American Bible belt, and FE will be being taught in Kansas in no time.

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Flat Earth Q&A / Questions for Round Earth arguers

« on: September 27, 2006, 03:49:34 AM »

As for will it take off, well if we counter it, and prove it wrong *now*, then it won't. If we ignore those who believe it, and dismiss them as harmless kooks; then who knows.

That you seem to be saying this in seriousness is a bit frightening. The true FE believers on this forum tend to accept that they will never prove their belief, and it will never reach mainstream acceptance; the fact that you seem genuinely worried that it will makes you more oblivious than any of them.

Perhaps none of them here yet, but it only takes one or two fanatics (probably to claim religion is on their side), to start a larger movement. People in general are not clever, and will believe all sorts of irrational things. Again, look at yooung earth creationism, another example would be Scientology

Agin look at creationism, because the scientists didn't nip ID in the bud when it was young, a large number of people now believe it to be true.

Are you suggesting modern theories of evolution and the origins of the universe predate creationism? That's just... dumb.

No, I'm not. However less than 10 or 15 years ago, it was firmly in the realms of religion; so called "Intelligent Design" is predated by modern evolution theory, and it is ID that is being taught in schools. ID is nothing less than creationism by the back door. Had Scientists tackled ID in it's early stages, we would not be at the stage we are now. Instead they dismissed it as ranting by a bunch of kooks, and now alot of otherwise intelligent people no longer believe in evolution, but would rather believe that the that the Universe was created 5000 years ago. And this nonsense is now being taught in some American schools.

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Flat Earth Q&A / Questions for Round Earth arguers

« on: September 26, 2006, 07:06:06 AM »

But you're assuming that people on this site actually believe it... You didn't answer my other questions.

Also do you really think this will take off and it will become a widely accepted theory?

One person preaching that the earth is flat (without any evidence) is one person too many preaching bad science, so if there is even one person here, or anywhere that believes it (and there is probably more than one worldwide); it needs countering. As for will it take off, well if we counter it, and prove it wrong *now*, then it won't. If we ignore those who believe it, and dismiss them as harmless kooks; then who knows. Agin look at creationism, because the scientists didn't nip ID in the bud when it was young, a large number of people now believe it to be true.

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Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Questions for Round Earth arguers

« on: September 26, 2006, 05:36:31 AM »

Why do you feel that it matters that people believe the Earth is flat?

It's bad science, and we've got enough of that without adding this type of stuff to it. Next thing you know, people will be arguing for it to be taught in schools (like Kansas, USA does with creationism).

8

Flat Earth Q&A / Re: Proof

« on: September 26, 2006, 05:32:42 AM »

Give me proof that the earth is round that a 5 year old can understand.

Real proof.

Go down to the coast and watch a boat come inyou'll see the mast first, this is because the earth is round, on a flat earth you'd expect to see the entire boat at the same time. This can be demonstrated wit a toy car and a beachball to a 5yr old.

9

Flat Earth Q&A / Reasons for Belief

« on: September 26, 2006, 05:23:02 AM »

I would say the toddler is a lot more likely to think "Hill!" than "we are a massive globe being propelled through an infinitely more massive universe by the centrifugal force resulting from the radial acceleration attributed to gravity, the unexplained phenomenon of mass attracting mass."

Actually, the first thought would be "why", if s\he is anything like the 3 to 5 year olds I know; it's their favorite word. And what toddler would think "hill" whilst looking out to sea? Most know that you don't get hills in water,
and I could demonstrate the RE reason of the whole ship\mast question with a beach ball and toy car. Try demonstrating FE theories.

Have you ever stopped to think just how ridiculous sounding the RE model is? I'm asking this as an REer to another REer, not in the context of the FE debate. I'm not saying the FE model is any less ridiculous, but there is not a person alive (nor will there ever be) who can truly comprehend the complexities of this universe, and you call this the simplest answer? The RE model is not simpler, we just know it better.

Yes, I'd call it the simplest answe that fits all our observational evidence.

10

Flat Earth Q&A / Some pretty tough questions.

« on: September 26, 2006, 05:10:36 AM »

calm down and btw the earth IS flat

As you people seem so fond of saying, prove it.

11

Flat Earth Q&A / Re: I have a few questions to ask FEers...

« on: September 26, 2006, 05:05:50 AM »

Why are so many FEers so hellbent on believing that the earth is flat and that there is a conspiracy with out any actual proof*that I've seen*?

People at the Flate Earth Society website believe that the earth is flat?! That's crazy. Proof? Just step outside and look have a look.

OK *looks outside* Well I'm in a dence urban area, so am surrounded by houses; so perhaps I shoud go to a large open space, I live in a costal city; so the nearest place is the sea. *take a bus down to the docks* *looks out into* the English channell* Well it looks round to me; that ferry coming over the horizon, mast first, kind of proved it.

Since when to ferrys have masts?  Aren't they mechanically powered?  Thus no need for wind?

At any rate, as made obvious by your observations, it is also reasonable to assume that houses cover the planet as well, following the "The earth is flat because it looks that way up close" logic.  Silly VJ.

Sorry if got my terinology wrong, what ever the top of the boat is called, you can see a picture of it at the top of the page, here: http://www.redfunnel.co.uk/
It's the big one on the left, the top looks like a radio mast to me.

Secondly, the only actual proof that has been offered to me is the ""The earth is flat because it looks that way up close" logic"; I was simply disproving it; I've not been presented with any acutual empirical evidence to try and disprove, just hysterical cries of "It's teh conspiricy!!!".

12

Flat Earth Q&A / Space for £1000

« on: September 26, 2006, 04:49:53 AM »

Despite the fact that everything I find related to the challange refers to the demonstration of some ability, I did find this nugget of joy on the JREF forums.

Firstly, the Challenge requires of you an actual demonstration of paranormal phenomenon, in a controlled setting. Photographs are not acceptable, as they do not provide acceptable evidence.

So JREF agrees with out stance on photography, which is what this thread was about way back when, and so they would certainly dismiss your suggested "photographs of a flat earth" based claim.

( http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?s=30b6f5a1b6edd51ca9dfd788f9a3e1e0&t=51776 )

I doubt photos on their own would, but the launching of a rocket, with camera (after inspection of equipment), with photos as observational evidence would probably suffice as proof to many people; you could chane the world, and shake modern science to it's very core; but it appears you would appear to believe a hypotisis without any proof for no diseranable reason.

13

Flat Earth Q&A / Pictures from space

« on: September 26, 2006, 04:41:37 AM »

Proove it.

Well we obviously don't have proof, but it makes a lot more sense that the government was involved than it would that a bunch of college kids fake RE pictures just for the hell of it. What motive would they have for doing that?

It makes even more sense that the pictures are real, and the world is round; why not lay out £1000 of your own, and take your own pictures; if you can show the world is flat, you could change the world and shake modern science to it's very core.

14

Flat Earth Q&A / Pictures from space

« on: September 26, 2006, 04:37:40 AM »

If you give me a picture of a round Earth, the fact that I can't prove it's fake doesn't mean it's real. Same applies if I give you a picture of a flat Earth.

If a photo of a flat earth cannot be proved to be fake, and all photos of a round earth are proved fake then I, and hundreds of millions of people around the world, would believe in a flat earth model..

I'm not sure I respect people who lie about their personal beliefs to make a point. If I showed you a picture of a flat earth that you could not prove fake, you would not believe the earth was flat. You would say - rightly - but there are thousands more pictures of a round earth!

This lie has been repeated in number of forms, and it is bothersome.

I'm not lieing; re-read what I said. I said if you could show me a photo of a flat eath wich couldn't be shown to be fake *and* proved all RE photos fake, then I'd believe in a flat earth.

15

Flat Earth Q&A / Pictures from space

« on: September 25, 2006, 05:58:04 AM »

All RE photos have been clearly shown to be fake, so there's not really much point bringing them up yet again.

Where have they been shown to be fake? Prove the ones taken recently by the students launching their own rocket into high atmosphere (see the thread "space for £1000") were fake. AFAIK nooone has yet proven them fake. Here's your chance; take some pictures of a flat earth, and let us REers have some direct observational evidence of you FE hypothsis.

16

Flat Earth Q&A / I have proof the world is round.

« on: September 25, 2006, 05:51:11 AM »

LoL. The car you saw was maneuvered by an inteligent lifeform. Comets aren't driven by inteligent lifeforms, nor are they even capable of making a sudden turn in the manner that they are,

Prove it.

I will if you prove that the earth is flat; I only ask for one piece of scientific, empirical, peer-reviewed evidence.

17

Flat Earth Q&A / I have proof the world is round.

« on: September 25, 2006, 04:45:30 AM »

Sorry, magnetism is a force I have actually witnessed the effects of first hand, unlike your "gravity" voodoo.

I've got an apple tree in my garden; the apples fall down onto the ground; Find a fruit tree of any type, and watch the fruit fall. There, you've witnessed gravity.

18

Flat Earth Q&A / Telescope

« on: September 25, 2006, 04:36:27 AM »

The sun is not the center of the universe.  The solar system yes, but not the universe.

Under big bang theory, technically everywhere is the centre of the universe.  :wink:

19

Flat Earth Q&A / Pictures from space

« on: September 25, 2006, 04:33:42 AM »

If you give me a picture of a round Earth, the fact that I can't prove it's fake doesn't mean it's real. Same applies if I give you a picture of a flat Earth.

If a photo of a flat earth cannot be proved to be fake, and all photos of a round earth are proved fake then I, and hundreds of millions of people around the world, would believe in a flat earth model. However I have yet to see a single picture of a flat earth from high altitude or space, but have seen many of a round earth. It appears you have your work cut out.

20

Flat Earth Q&A / Re: I have a few questions to ask FEers...

« on: September 25, 2006, 04:14:30 AM »

Why are so many FEers so hellbent on believing that the earth is flat and that there is a conspiracy with out any actual proof*that I've seen*?

People at the Flate Earth Society website believe that the earth is flat?! That's crazy. Proof? Just step outside and look have a look.

OK *looks outside* Well I'm in a dence urban area, so am surrounded by houses; so perhaps I shoud go to a large open space, I live in a costal city; so the nearest place is the sea. *take a bus down to the docks* *looks out into* the English channell* Well it looks round to me; that ferry coming over the horizon, mast first, kind of proved it.

21

Flat Earth Q&A / Space for £1000

« on: September 25, 2006, 04:02:51 AM »

it would be naiive to assume a foundation capable of liquidating $1,000,000 for prize money would be outside the influence of the conspiracy.

Rubbish. £1,000,000 isn't much over £500,000; my dad's house now costs about that; he could obviously liquidadte that in a matter of weeks (at most). Why any one else couldn't arange a prize of £1,000,000 I don't know. I'm sure that the foundation has invested it's startup money well, and has well over £1,000,000 in assets.

22

Flat Earth Q&A / I have proof the world is round.

« on: September 24, 2006, 01:21:56 PM »

It is quite easy to prove the OP simply turned his camera upside down.

If he was on the bottom of the earth, he would have fallen off.

Case closed!

...unless...

Australians wear magnet shoes!

Or perhaps more likley: gravity is at work; keeping him on.

23

Flat Earth Q&A / Conspiracy logic debate

« on: September 24, 2006, 09:42:40 AM »

I don't believe hamsters rule the earth because I have no line of reasoning that leads to that conclusion.

What line of reasoning leads to the conclusion that the earth is flat? Personally I belive hampsters rule the Earth we know this because there is a conspirisy hiding the fact; and it's one that's good enough for you not to have realised that it's there.

I call this Hampster Earth theory (HE); I propose that we now debate it alongside FE and RE, as it has as much evidence behind it as FE

We could go on for days amassing the entire FE reasoning.  Or, you could read many posts here  :wink:

I've read many of the posts here, including this entire thread; however all evidence seems to boil down to two points. 1)it looks flat 2)There's a global conspirisy to make people believe it's round.

Using scientific method, point 1 is eaisly falsified; that leaves us with point 2. which is exatly the same amount of evidence that my Hampster Earth theory has behind it.

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Flat Earth Q&A / Pictures from space

« on: September 24, 2006, 09:34:19 AM »

http://www.ocean.washington.edu/people/grads/scottv/exploraquarium/scaletrip/images/apollo.earth.500.jpg

Please present the evidence that makes you think this is fake.

I can't. That's not the point.

I think you'll find it is the point; science works by falsification, we've given you a myriad of evidence to try and falsify, you've given us nothing but poorly designed hypothoses. Now obviously, the earth can't be both a globe and flat, so in order to prove that iit's flat you must first falsify evidence presented to you by people who contend that it's round.

Note saying "It's part of the conspirisy" dosn't count as scientific falsification.

25

Flat Earth Q&A / Conspiracy logic debate

« on: September 24, 2006, 09:23:42 AM »

I don't believe hamsters rule the earth because I have no line of reasoning that leads to that conclusion.

What line of reasoning leads to the conclusion that the earth is flat? Personally I belive hampsters rule the Earth we know this because there is a conspirisy hiding the fact; and it's one that's good enough for you not to have realised that it's there.

I call this Hampster Earth theory (HE); I propose that we now debate it alongside FE and RE, as it has as much evidence behind it as FE

26

Flat Earth Q&A / I have proof the world is round.

« on: September 24, 2006, 09:14:10 AM »

it's proof to you.

By that logic, proof that Australia even exists is only proof to people who've been there. I've only ever seen pictures and videos; I've met a couple of people who claim to have been there, or claimed to have lived there; but that's only proof to them; right?

You've seen photos, tv shows and met people who say they've been to Australia and that is very convincing.  In fact you'd have to say that it dispels all reasonable doubt that Australia exists but does that make it proof?

Generally proof would require you to know without doubt - not know without reasonable doubt.  There's a slight but significant difference.  Is it theoretically possible that those pictures are fake and that the videos were fake and the people are lieing to you?  There's obviously no reason to think that that is the case, but is it theoretically possible?  If so, and I think it is, then you don't have proof - just strong enough evidence that you should be convinced of Australia's existence.  A miniscule amount of faith is still required to believe that Australia is real.

Bingo! You've hit the nail on the head; I doubt many (if indeed any) FEers on this site would contened that Australia is not real. I contend that there is almost, if not, as much evidence for the earth being a globe, as there is for the existance of Australia; why then do FEers dispute all evidence for the RE without any scientific backing for their hypothisis, yet accept the fact that Australia (or indeed anywhere beyond where they are right now) exists? As yet I have not had a satisfactory answer beyond "It's the conspirisy!!!". I'm asking for empirical evidence people; and I'm not getting it.

27

Flat Earth Q&A / I have proof the world is round.

« on: September 24, 2006, 07:25:44 AM »

Right - but that's like saying, as you have never met me that I don't exsist, or that becasue you have never tasted piklets that they don't exsist. When they, infact, do.      Or - that becasue you have never practised hinuism it doesnt exsist.

You just have to except that things exsist - even if you haven't expericenced them else a lot of things wouldn't make anysense. For example - The humanities would be nigh on impossible to comprehend if you didnt just except these thigs exsist.

That was kind of my point; so if I go up into high altitude (or perhaps just send a camera up there), and observe the curvature of the earth, would that enough to persuade the FEers that the earth is a globe? If not, why not, after all they accept the word of people who've gone to Australia, and sending a camera up is almost as cheap as that now (see my other thread: "space for £1000").

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Flat Earth Q&A / I have proof the world is round.

« on: September 24, 2006, 06:54:23 AM »

it's proof to you.

By that logic, proof that Australia even exists is only proof to people who've been there. I've only ever seen pictures and videos; I've met a couple of people who claim to have been there, or claimed to have lived there; but that's only proof to them; right?

29

Flat Earth Q&A / I have proof the world is round.

« on: September 24, 2006, 06:30:52 AM »

That said, me saying that I've been to Sydney and it isn't upside down wasn't the proof, me actually going to Sydney and observing it isn't upside down isthe proof. Well proof enough for me to be comfortable to make the statement that Sydney isn't upside down.

So if i enter high atmosphere and observe the curvature of the earth, then it's proof that the earth is a globe, right?

30

Flat Earth Q&A / Pictures from space

« on: September 24, 2006, 06:26:01 AM »

You REers can claim that you would believe a picture of a flat earth to be genuine until proven otherwise (which I don't believe for a second, and is obviously just an attempt to prove a point), but they aren't valid as evidence in the bounds of this discussion. That's it, those are the rules, and they have been established time and time again.

Why are those the rules? The only way to prove the curvature (or lack thereof) of the earth is to observe it; the only way, without going into hight atmosphere myself, is to launch a camera and take pictures. Why should those pictures be deemed inadmissable as evidence?

Feel free to pat yourselves on the back and post all the photographs you want, saying "prove these wrong or I win!!!" Know, though, that that tactic is neither worthwhile nor interesting.

Yes it is, because untill you show me pictures of a flat earth, it's somthing I can never observe, whereas I've observed a round earth, both by pictures, and by standing on the ground, looking out to sea. Both things are explicable by RE; but not FE. As I pointed out in the other thread, it's no longer hugely expensive to launch a rocket, you can get pictures for £1000. FEers can nolonger shy away from the observational evidence of a round eath without providing their own high atmosphere observations of a flat earth. Space is now cheap enough for even you guys to afford it.