# The Flat Earth Society

## Other Discussion Boards => Technology, Science & Alt Science => Topic started by: E E K on August 25, 2020, 02:33:39 AM

Title: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 25, 2020, 02:33:39 AM
It is the gravitational ability of any point mass to accelerate all other point masses at [g=GM/(R+H)^2] towards its center either in free fall or on its surface, therefore what is role of gravitational force (F=GMm/d^2) b/t two point masses then when each object has an innate power to accelerate other object towards its center w/o any force F.

When there is a force there is a mass but the gravitational acceleration (g=GM/(R+H)^2) of each object is independent of falling mass though we can’t ignore the center of gravity of the falling mass and after all it is the mass which is falling or accelerated.

If the said object is earth then = g = 9.8 m/s/s, R=radius of earth, H = height above the surface of the earth, M=mass of the earth and G=gravitationlal constant
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Pezevenk on August 25, 2020, 09:36:52 AM
I don't understand the question. In fact, I'm not even sure if there is a question.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 25, 2020, 10:39:13 AM
Let M1 and M2 are masses of two objects with c/c distance of d=(R1+H1)=(R2+H2) as shown in figure. H1 and H2 are heights above ground of M1 and M2 respectively.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yWVgvsDd/IMG-E3370.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWVgvsDd)
It is the ability of M1 to accelerate all objects towards its center @ rate of g1=GM1(R1+H1)^2

It is also the ability of M2 to accelerate all objects towards its center @ rate of g2=GM2(R2+H2)^2

Consider M1 and M2 only

M2 falls on M1 @ rate of g1=GM1(R1+H1)^2
where g1=GM1(R1+H1)^2 is the acceleration due to the gravity of M1

M1 falls on M2 @ rate of g2=GM2(R2+H2)^2
where g2=GM2(R2+H2)^2 is the acceleration due to the gravity of M2

Do M1 and M2 really need gravitational force F=GM1M2/d^2 in b/t them if both M1 and M2 can fall towards each other w/o any force?

Gravitating mass doesn't depend upon the mass of the falling object.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 25, 2020, 11:34:29 AM
Do M1 and M2 really need gravitational force F=GM1M2/d^2 in b/t them if both M1 and M2 can fall towards each other w/o any force?

Gravitating mass doesn't depend upon the mass of the falling object.

Who says objects are pulled without any force?

There is a force, and we measure that force in Newtons.

In Relativity mass bends space-time and causes objects to follow this new bent path.

In both theories, the end result is a force pulls mass together.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 25, 2020, 11:08:57 PM
Do M1 and M2 really need gravitational force F=GM1M2/d^2 in b/t them if both M1 and M2 can fall towards each other w/o any force?

Gravitating mass doesn't depend upon the mass of the falling object.

Who says objects are pulled without any force?

There is a force, and we measure that force in Newtons.

In Relativity mass bends space-time and causes objects to follow this new bent path.

In both theories, the end result is a force pulls mass together.
Yes, it’s Newton who came up with idea first after the statement of Galileo that all objects fall at the rate.

The magnitude of the acceleration at which the falling mass is accelerated can be found if we know the mass and radius of the gravitating mass in equation of g=GM/R^2 formulated by Newton. It doesn’t depend upon

1-   The magnitude of gravitational force, which exists in between falling mass and gravitating mass
2-   The mass of the object, which is accelerated by the gravitating mass towards its center.

Did you see any role of the gravitational force in finding the magnitude of acceleration? Even newton didn’t know about it. Isn’t it weird? So if

M2 falls on M1 @ rate of g1=GM1(R1+H1)^2
M1 falls on M2 @ rate of g2=GM2(R2+H2)^2

Where is role gravitational force b/w M1 and M2 when both can fall w/o force and its magnitude?
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 26, 2020, 02:02:41 AM
In Relativity mass bends space-time

It doesn't.

Dr. Erik Verlinde (2019):

General Relativity remains just a description of the force we call gravity. It leaves unanswered the key question of exactly how matter affects space and time.

The magnitude of gravitational force, which exists in between falling mass and gravitating mass

It cannot be attractive.

Please explain how a water molecule from lake Ontario which emits gravitons is attracted by the iron/nickel core which releases gravitons.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 26, 2020, 03:02:03 AM
In Relativity mass bends space-time

It doesn't.

Dr. Erik Verlinde (2019):

General Relativity remains just a description of the force we call gravity. It leaves unanswered the key question of exactly how matter affects space and time.

The magnitude of gravitational force, which exists in between falling mass and gravitating mass

It cannot be attractive.

Please explain how a water molecule from lake Ontario which emits gravitons is attracted by the iron/nickel core which releases gravitons.
Einstein comes after Newton and Galileo. Einstein used the same gravitational constant “G” which was derived from the concept of newton’s law of gravitation. So his theories (though wrong) are also in question too.

I had long war of cancelling gravities but I always answered that gravity is always attractive.

Even if gravity is attractive then still two objects come closer with higher types of motion not just with acceleration.

Similarly, it is said all objects fall all at the same rate either in free fall or resting on ground as masses of the falling objects and their respective gravitational forces do not matter. If this is true then settlement in ground due to the said masses if placed them gently on ground (still falling toward the center of earth) should be equal which contradicts reality.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 26, 2020, 04:12:07 AM
The magnitude of the acceleration at which the falling mass is accelerated can be found if we know the mass and radius of the gravitating mass in equation of g=GM/R^2 formulated by Newton. It doesn’t depend upon

Why are you talking about the radius? That's not part of the equation and we don't need to know it to calculate the attraction between two masses using that formula.

G = Gravitational constant.
M = The two masses, usually represented as M1 and M2.
R = Distance between the two masses.

Do you not think it's more likely you are misunderstanding these equations, rather than hundreds of years worth of scientists, engineers and theorists have been wrong, and every bridge, skyscraper and technology that relies on them just somehow worked even though everyone is wrong?

Do you think you discovered a flaw that thousands of scientists and mathematicians have missed?
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Stash on August 26, 2020, 04:22:36 AM
In Relativity mass bends space-time

It doesn't.

Dr. Erik Verlinde (2019):

General Relativity remains just a description of the force we call gravity. It leaves unanswered the key question of exactly how matter affects space and time.

The magnitude of gravitational force, which exists in between falling mass and gravitating mass

It cannot be attractive.

Please explain how a water molecule from lake Ontario which emits gravitons is attracted by the iron/nickel core which releases gravitons.

Referring to his notions regarding the existence of gravity, fundamental forces, and thermodynamics, “This is not the basis of a theory,” Dr. Verlinde explained. “I don’t pretend this to be a theory. People should read the words I am saying opposed to the details of equations.”
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 26, 2020, 05:32:58 AM
In Relativity mass bends space-time
...
Please explain how a water molecule from lake Ontario which emits gravitons is attracted by the iron/nickel core which releases gravitons.
No graviton.

The water molecule is in a gravitational field. It’s that simple.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 26, 2020, 10:49:25 AM
The magnitude of the acceleration at which the falling mass is accelerated can be found if we know the mass and radius of the gravitating mass in equation of g=GM/R^2 formulated by Newton. It doesn’t depend upon

Why are you talking about the radius? That's not part of the equation and we don't need to know it to calculate the attraction between two masses using that formula.

G = Gravitational constant.
M = The two masses, usually represented as M1 and M2.
R = Distance between the two masses.

Do you not think it's more likely you are misunderstanding these equations, rather than hundreds of years worth of scientists, engineers and theorists have been wrong, and every bridge, skyscraper and technology that relies on them just somehow worked even though everyone is wrong?

Do you think you discovered a flaw that thousands of scientists and mathematicians have missed?
The general formula of acceleration due to gravity “g” of any object of mass M and radius R is = g = GM/R^2, where  R is just a distance from the center of gravity of the object to its outer surface if the object is a sphere.

If the above object is earth then the value of “g” of earth on its SURFACE = GM/R^2 = 9.8 m/s/s.
Where M= mass of earth, R= Radius of earth.

The value of “g” of earth at any height “H” above the surface of earth = GM/(R+H)^2

If the above object is sun then the value of “g” of sun on its SURFACE = GM/R^2 =   274.13 m/s/s.
Where M= mass of sun, R= Radius of sun.

The value of “g” sun at any height “H” above the surface of sun = GM/(R+H)^2

IMPORTANT NOTE:

The general formula of the gravitational force between two objects is  F = GMm/d^2. There must be two objects (M and m) present for gravitational force "F" to exist in between them. It means F = 0 in the absence of either M or m. Gravitational force (F=GMm/d^2) doesn’t exist when there is only one mass. Therefore

Is it possible to calculate the value of gravitational acceleration in the absence of second mass and gravitational force? NO but the equation of acceleration due to gravity (g = GM/R^2) formulated by Newton shows that the acceleration due to gravity of any lone mass can be calculated as explained above.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Unconvinced on August 26, 2020, 01:23:44 PM
Yes, it’s Newton who came up with idea first after the statement of Galileo that all objects fall at the rate.

The magnitude of the acceleration at which the falling mass is accelerated can be found if we know the mass and radius of the gravitating mass in equation of g=GM/R^2 formulated by Newton. It doesn’t depend upon

1-   The magnitude of gravitational force, which exists in between falling mass and gravitating mass
2-   The mass of the object, which is accelerated by the gravitating mass towards its center.

Did you see any role of the gravitational force in finding the magnitude of acceleration? Even newton didn’t know about it. Isn’t it weird? So if

M2 falls on M1 @ rate of g1=GM1(R1+H1)^2
M1 falls on M2 @ rate of g2=GM2(R2+H2)^2

Where is role gravitational force b/w M1 and M2 when both can fall w/o force and its magnitude?

The equation you quoted is derived from F=ma and F=GMm/r2.  In doing so the terms F and m are removed from the resulting equation.

All that means is that whatever value for m (and therefore F) we input into the equation, the result is the same.

It doesn’t mean that there is no force F or mass m in reality, and each equation must still work separately.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 26, 2020, 10:09:09 PM
Yes, it’s Newton who came up with idea first after the statement of Galileo that all objects fall at the rate.

The magnitude of the acceleration at which the falling mass is accelerated can be found if we know the mass and radius of the gravitating mass in equation of g=GM/R^2 formulated by Newton. It doesn’t depend upon

1-   The magnitude of gravitational force, which exists in between falling mass and gravitating mass
2-   The mass of the object, which is accelerated by the gravitating mass towards its center.

Did you see any role of the gravitational force in finding the magnitude of acceleration? Even newton didn’t know about it. Isn’t it weird? So if

M2 falls on M1 @ rate of g1=GM1(R1+H1)^2
M1 falls on M2 @ rate of g2=GM2(R2+H2)^2

Where is role gravitational force b/w M1 and M2 when both can fall w/o force and its magnitude?

The equation you quoted is derived from F=ma and F=GMm/r2.  In doing so the terms F and m are removed from the resulting equation.

All that means is that whatever value for m (and therefore F) we input into the equation, the result is the same.

It doesn’t mean that there is no force F or mass m in reality, and each equation must still work separately.
Removing is called something ELIMINATION in math – F and m are eliminated so that we can solve for more simplified form. No idea what your discipline is but ELIMINATION is taught at school level.

So once you eliminate F and m then it means then the resulting equation of g =GM/R^2 doesn't depend upon F and m. This equation of Newton which is independent of falling mass "m" satisfies Gallelio's statement of falling of all objects at the same rate which people still believe (including you) for many 100 years.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 27, 2020, 04:41:06 AM
Removing is called something ELIMINATION in math – F and m are eliminated so that we can solve for more simplified form. No idea what your discipline is but ELIMINATION is taught at school level.

So once you eliminate F and m then it means then the resulting equation of g =GM/R^2 doesn't depend upon F and m. This equation of Newton which is independent of falling mass "m" satisfies Gallelio's statement of falling of all objects at the same rate which people still believe (including you) for many 100 years.

Knowing the name of something doesn't mean you're using it right.

If you really think that tens of thousands of scientists for hundreds of years are wrong about objects falling at the same rate, prove it. If you think you know better than millions of engineers who use those equations to design, build and fly things all around the world then lets see your experiments.

Build or buy a vacuum chamber, film some objects dropping and prove that heavier ones always fall faster.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 27, 2020, 05:42:13 AM
Removing is called something ELIMINATION in math – F and m are eliminated so that we can solve for more simplified form. No idea what your discipline is but ELIMINATION is taught at school level.

So once you eliminate F and m then it means then the resulting equation of g =GM/R^2 doesn't depend upon F and m. This equation of Newton which is independent of falling mass "m" satisfies Gallelio's statement of falling of all objects at the same rate which people still believe (including you) for many 100 years.

Knowing the name of something doesn't mean you're using it right.

If you really think that tens of thousands of scientists for hundreds of years are wrong about objects falling at the same rate, prove it. If you think you know better than millions of engineers who use those equations to design, build and fly things all around the world then lets see your experiments.

Build or buy a vacuum chamber, film some objects dropping and prove that heavier ones always fall faster.

Cut the crap.

Engineering calculations for arches:

W=mg, which is a flat earth equation

This thread makes very clear the following facts: F=GMm/r^2 is an artificial equation which cannot be used until and unless one proves first that the shape of the Earth is spherical and that gravity is attractive; g=Gm/r^2 is the correct equation, which can only take place on a flat surface of the Earth.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 27, 2020, 06:16:06 AM
W=mg, which is a flat earth equation

LOL!  ::)

You know that's a formula describing weight as defined by gravity, don't you?  It's also taking into account the rotation of the Earth.

Lets look at the official definition...

In the ISO International standard ISO 80000-4:2006 describing the basic physical quantities and units in mechanics as a part of the International standard ISO/IEC 80000, the definition of weight is given as:

Definition: F=mg, where m is mass and g is local acceleration of free fall.

Remarks: When the reference frame is Earth, this quantity comprises not only the local gravitational force, but also the local centrifugal force due to the rotation of the Earth, a force which varies with latitude.

Yeah, not really something I'd say supports a flat Earth.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 27, 2020, 06:27:50 AM
Cut the crap you troll.

g-force measured at quantum level:

https://www.nature.com/articles/23655

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1902.01318.pdf

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-02087886/document

(https://i.ibb.co/48ddLRV/gacc.jpg)

Ether vortex model, published in the Journal of Mathematical Physics.

Dr. Ellis' groundbreaking paper takes GTR from a singularity to a drainhole aether model, the paper was published in the JOURNAL OF MATHEMATICAL PHYSICS.

Now, the mathematical theory for the absorption/emission of aether through a Planck length level particle.

Ether flow through a drainhole: a particle model in general relativity

Journal of Mathematical Physics, vol. 14, no. 1, 1973

Dr. Ellis:

This ether is in general "more than a mere inert medium for the propagation of electromagnetic waves; it is a restless, flowing continuum whose internal, relative motions manifest themselves to us as gravity. Mass particles appear as sources or sinks of this flowing ether."

Here is the W = -mg formula at the SUBQUARK/GRAVITON level:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13386630_Gravity_as_a_zero-point-fluctuation_force [equation (62)]

(https://i.ibb.co/mRFZ4jr/wsub2.jpg)

(where, of course, g = Gm/r2)

Thus, WEIGHT is the fundamental force which manifests itself at the quantum level.

Then, we have the weight of a subquark/parton/graviton formula derived by three of the top physicists in the world:

(https://i.ibb.co/QDYBb4S/wsub.jpg)

(m = W/g)

https://web.archive.org/web/20190228190940/https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/9069/0be66e03f535dd3b47aeb76ea36bfc3d1909.pdf

It was published in the Physical Review A:

https://journals.aps.org/pra/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevA.49.678
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 27, 2020, 06:31:08 AM
So now electrons exist?
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Pezevenk on August 27, 2020, 07:43:22 AM
In Relativity mass bends space-time

It doesn't.

Dr. Erik Verlinde (2019):

General Relativity remains just a description of the force we call gravity. It leaves unanswered the key question of exactly how matter affects space and time.

The magnitude of gravitational force, which exists in between falling mass and gravitating mass

It cannot be attractive.

Please explain how a water molecule from lake Ontario which emits gravitons is attracted by the iron/nickel core which releases gravitons.

First of all no one even knows if gravitons are really a thing yet. You shouldn't take them for granted.

Second, while you are right that GR leaves unanswered the question of exactly how matter affects spacetime, it does tell us that it is mass which results in curved spacetime. The particular mechanism is unknown but it doesn't mean mass doesn't curve spacetime.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Pezevenk on August 27, 2020, 07:45:19 AM
Removing is called something ELIMINATION in math – F and m are eliminated so that we can solve for more simplified form. No idea what your discipline is but ELIMINATION is taught at school level.

So once you eliminate F and m then it means then the resulting equation of g =GM/R^2 doesn't depend upon F and m. This equation of Newton which is independent of falling mass "m" satisfies Gallelio's statement of falling of all objects at the same rate which people still believe (including you) for many 100 years.

Knowing the name of something doesn't mean you're using it right.

If you really think that tens of thousands of scientists for hundreds of years are wrong about objects falling at the same rate, prove it. If you think you know better than millions of engineers who use those equations to design, build and fly things all around the world then lets see your experiments.

Build or buy a vacuum chamber, film some objects dropping and prove that heavier ones always fall faster.

Cut the crap.

Engineering calculations for arches:

W=mg, which is a flat earth equation

This thread makes very clear the following facts: F=GMm/r^2 is an artificial equation which cannot be used until and unless one proves first that the shape of the Earth is spherical and that gravity is attractive; g=Gm/r^2 is the correct equation, which can only take place on a flat surface of the Earth.
Sandokhan, do you know what a Taylor expansion is?
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 27, 2020, 08:15:10 AM
First of all no one even knows if gravitons are really a thing yet. You shouldn't take them for granted.

One cannot have quantum gravity without particles, unless a non perturbative observable can be defined in their place

"Absence of particles means absence of Poincare invariance, no standard Fock space.

Particle physics is defined by local perturbative quantum field theory (Poincare groups).

However, Planck level physics is governed by general covariance.

That is why quantum gravity must be defined in terms of loops/knots.

Knot theory is the physical theory that classifies the independent physical states of the quantum field.

Genuine quantum gravitational physics is non perturbative.

General relativity forced in the quantum perturbative framework doesn't work."

Dr. Carlo Rovelli
Are knots quantum states of spacetime?
Knots, Topology And Quantum Field Theory (pg. 51-69)

A graviton is a string with closed loops.

https://cds.cern.ch/record/223258/files/9202054.pdf

Gravitons and Loops

Abhay Ashtekar, Carlo Rovelli and Lee Smolin

The “reality conditions” are realized by an inner product that is chiral asymmetric, resulting in a chiral asymmetric ordering for the Hamiltonian, and, in an asymmetric description of the left and right handed gravitons.

The first step towards this goal is to recast the Fock description of graviton also in terms of closed loops.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1010.3552.pdf

Chiral vacuum fluctuations in quantum gravity

Is made up of the right handed positive frequency of the graviton and the left handed negative frequency of the anti-graviton.

The particular mechanism is unknown

The quantum physicists at MIT, Princeton, say otherwise: it is known and has been proven.

The deepest connection between gravity and quantum entanglement:

“The universality of the gravitational interaction comes directly from the universality of entanglement- it is not possible to have stress-energy that doesn’t source the gravitational field because it is not possible to have degrees of freedom that don’t contribute to entanglement entropy.”

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1405.2933.pdf

Universality of Gravity from Entanglement

https://newatlas.com/physics/15-trillion-atoms-quantum-entanglement/

The team mixed rubidium metal with nitrogen gas, and heated it up to 176.9 °C (350.3 °F). At that temperature, the metal vaporizes, causing free rubidium atoms to float around the chamber. There they become entangled with each other, and the team can measure that entanglement by shining a laser through the gas.

The researchers observed as many as 15 trillion entangled atoms in the gas, which they say is about 100 times more than any other experiment.

“If we stop the measurement, the entanglement remains for about one millisecond, which means that 1,000 times per second a new batch of 15 trillion atoms is being entangled,” says Jia Kong, first author of the study. “And you must think that 1 ms is a very long time for the atoms, long enough for about 50 random collisions to occur. This clearly shows that the entanglement is not destroyed by these random events. This is maybe the most surprising result of the work.”

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1307.6850v2.pdf

Holographic Schwinger effect and the geometry of entanglement

http://news.mit.edu/2013/you-cant-get-entangled-without-a-wormhole-1205

Julian Sonner, a senior postdoc in MIT’s Laboratory for Nuclear Science and Center for Theoretical Physics, has published his results in the journal Physical Review Letters, where it appears together with a related paper by Kristan Jensen of the University of Victoria and Andreas Karch of the University of Washington.

The tangled web that is gravity

He found that what emerged was a wormhole connecting the two entangled quarks, implying that the creation of quarks simultaneously creates a wormhole. More fundamentally, he says, gravity itself may be a result of entanglement. What’s more, the universe’s geometry as described by classical gravity may be a consequence of entanglement—pairs of particles strung together by tunneling wormholes.

https://www.universetoday.com/106968/could-particle-spooky-action-define-the-nature-of-gravity/

Dr. Ellis' groundbreaking paper takes GTR from a singularity to a drainhole aether model, the paper was published in the JOURNAL OF MATHEMATICAL PHYSICS.

Now, the mathematical theory for the absorption/emission of aether through a Planck length level particle.

Ether flow through a drainhole: a particle model in general relativity

Journal of Mathematical Physics, vol. 14, no. 1, 1973

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2275717#msg2275717 (ENTANGLED GRAVITONS ARE CONNECTED BY ELLIS AETHER WORMHOLES)
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Pezevenk on August 27, 2020, 08:58:10 AM
No one knows yet if quantum gravity can really work dude. The subject of gravitons is irrelevant anyways, I don't know what you think it has to do with gravity being attractive or repulsive or whatever.

The quotes and links you posted either don't say what you think they do, are speculative, or they are irrelevant. Please try to make normal posts for once that are concise and on topic.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Unconvinced on August 27, 2020, 10:48:15 AM
Yes, it’s Newton who came up with idea first after the statement of Galileo that all objects fall at the rate.

The magnitude of the acceleration at which the falling mass is accelerated can be found if we know the mass and radius of the gravitating mass in equation of g=GM/R^2 formulated by Newton. It doesn’t depend upon

1-   The magnitude of gravitational force, which exists in between falling mass and gravitating mass
2-   The mass of the object, which is accelerated by the gravitating mass towards its center.

Did you see any role of the gravitational force in finding the magnitude of acceleration? Even newton didn’t know about it. Isn’t it weird? So if

M2 falls on M1 @ rate of g1=GM1(R1+H1)^2
M1 falls on M2 @ rate of g2=GM2(R2+H2)^2

Where is role gravitational force b/w M1 and M2 when both can fall w/o force and its magnitude?

The equation you quoted is derived from F=ma and F=GMm/r2.  In doing so the terms F and m are removed from the resulting equation.

All that means is that whatever value for m (and therefore F) we input into the equation, the result is the same.

It doesn’t mean that there is no force F or mass m in reality, and each equation must still work separately.
Removing is called something ELIMINATION in math – F and m are eliminated so that we can solve for more simplified form. No idea what your discipline is but ELIMINATION is taught at school level.

So once you eliminate F and m then it means then the resulting equation of g =GM/R^2 doesn't depend upon F and m. This equation of Newton which is independent of falling mass "m" satisfies Gallelio's statement of falling of all objects at the same rate which people still believe (including you) for many 100 years.

Gee, thanks.  I know.

You’re the one asking for clarification, and I’m trying to explain as simply as I can.

You appear to be saying that there is no force between the objects.  The terms F and m are ELIMINATED from the equation (rather, one is substituted, the other eliminated).  They aren’t eliminated from reality.

The smaller body still has mass m, and there is still a force F between them.

Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 27, 2020, 11:32:27 AM
So now electrons exist?
May be  or may be not because I don't understand why was the mass of every electron created exactly the same when there were chances of more than one type by the natural selection in random during the early stages of the universe in chaos/ big bang?

Mass of one electron = 9.10938356 × 10-31 kg
Other type could have = 8.10938356 × 10-30 kg – this is just an example
it could have zillion types of masses (Ranges in Kg)

The same is applied to all atomic particles, not just electron.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 27, 2020, 11:36:26 AM
So now electrons exist?
May be  or may be not because I don't understand why was the mass of every electron created exactly the same when there were chances of more than one type by the natural selection in random during the early stages of the universe in chaos/ big bang?

Mass of one electron = 9.10938356 × 10-31 kg
Other type could have = 8.10938356 × 10-30 kg – this is just an example
it could have zillion types of masses (Ranges in Kg)

The same is applied to all atomic particles, not just electron.

This one is easy. The standard model doesn't predict electrons with differing masses.

But more importantly, in all the experiments and atom smashing and evidence and data that has been collected... we never found an electron with a different mass.

We do not know WHY that is so, but there is no evidence or data to suggest otherwise.

If the LHC starts spitting out electrons with twice their weight, well that will be exiting and interesting and then you can be right. But until the, there is no proof, nor any hints that they exist.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 27, 2020, 11:46:32 AM
See how you are trolling the thread?

Issue raised by E E K:

Why was the mass of every electron created exactly the same when there were chances of more than one type by the natural selection in random during the early stages of the universe in chaos/ big bang? The same is applied to all atomic particles, not just electron.

Your rant should be replaced by this:

We do not know WHY that is so.

Do you understand the implications of the point raised by E E K? I think not.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 27, 2020, 11:47:14 AM
So now electrons exist?
May be  or may be not because I don't understand why was the mass of every electron created exactly the same when there were chances of more than one type by the natural selection in random during the early stages of the universe in chaos/ big bang?

Mass of one electron = 9.10938356 × 10-31 kg
Other type could have = 8.10938356 × 10-30 kg – this is just an example
it could have zillion types of masses (Ranges in Kg)

The same is applied to all atomic particles, not just electron.
Sandokhan doesn’t believe in electrons yet he used them as evidence.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 27, 2020, 12:01:55 PM
So now electrons exist?
May be  or may be not because I don't understand why was the mass of every electron created exactly the same when there were chances of more than one type by the natural selection in random during the early stages of the universe in chaos/ big bang?

Mass of one electron = 9.10938356 × 10-31 kg
Other type could have = 8.10938356 × 10-30 kg – this is just an example
it could have zillion types of masses (Ranges in Kg)

The same is applied to all atomic particles, not just electron.
An electron is an elementary particle. It came about due to physics, which would be due to the properties of energy. You are making it out to be more complex than it is.

Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: John Davis on August 27, 2020, 01:06:04 PM
Do M1 and M2 really need gravitational force F=GM1M2/d^2 in b/t them if both M1 and M2 can fall towards each other w/o any force?

Gravitating mass doesn't depend upon the mass of the falling object.

Who says objects are pulled without any force?

There is a force, and we measure that force in Newtons.

In Relativity mass bends space-time and causes objects to follow this new bent path.

In both theories, the end result is a force pulls mass together.
No; in relativity there is no 'force' 'pulling' anything.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 27, 2020, 01:45:08 PM
Do M1 and M2 really need gravitational force F=GM1M2/d^2 in b/t them if both M1 and M2 can fall towards each other w/o any force?

Gravitating mass doesn't depend upon the mass of the falling object.

Who says objects are pulled without any force?

There is a force, and we measure that force in Newtons.

In Relativity mass bends space-time and causes objects to follow this new bent path.

In both theories, the end result is a force pulls mass together.
No; in relativity there is no 'force' 'pulling' anything.

Right.  I should have said...

In both theories, the end result is masses move toward each other.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 27, 2020, 09:39:19 PM
So now electrons exist?
May be  or may be not because I don't understand why was the mass of every electron created exactly the same when there were chances of more than one type by the natural selection in random during the early stages of the universe in chaos/ big bang?

Mass of one electron = 9.10938356 × 10-31 kg
Other type could have = 8.10938356 × 10-30 kg – this is just an example
it could have zillion types of masses (Ranges in Kg)

The same is applied to all atomic particles, not just electron.
An electron is an elementary particle. It came about due to physics, which would be due to the properties of energy. You are making it out to be more complex than it is.

I’m not making it more complex but I'm talking about the availability of chances in early stages of the big bang if natural selection  had availed in selecting of different masses of each type of atomic particle.

Just a proton is about 1835 times more massive than an electron. So imagine how many electron proton and neutron could have been created in between the range of 1 and 1835 or 9.10938356 × 10-31 kg  and 1835 x 9.10938356 × 10-31 kg . with separate charges.  (Neutron has no charge)
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 27, 2020, 09:42:22 PM
In both theories, the end result is masses move toward each other.

No.

What you have are two hypotheses: 1. gravity is attractive and 2. matter interacts with spacetime.

There are no PROOFS for either hypothesis.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 27, 2020, 09:46:03 PM
There is evidence.(evidence is the correct word)
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 27, 2020, 10:06:05 PM
There is evidence.(evidence is the correct word)
There is no such instruments which can either see or measure space-time. So what do you mean by evidence?
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Pezevenk on August 28, 2020, 03:09:23 AM
So now electrons exist?
May be  or may be not because I don't understand why was the mass of every electron created exactly the same when there were chances of more than one type by the natural selection in random during the early stages of the universe in chaos/ big bang?

Mass of one electron = 9.10938356 × 10-31 kg
Other type could have = 8.10938356 × 10-30 kg – this is just an example
it could have zillion types of masses (Ranges in Kg)

The same is applied to all atomic particles, not just electron.

This one is easy. The standard model doesn't predict electrons with differing masses.

But more importantly, in all the experiments and atom smashing and evidence and data that has been collected... we never found an electron with a different mass.

We do not know WHY that is so, but there is no evidence or data to suggest otherwise.

If the LHC starts spitting out electrons with twice their weight, well that will be exiting and interesting and then you can be right. But until the, there is no proof, nor any hints that they exist.

There are electrons with different masses! They are called muons and tauons and they aren't electrons  ;)
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 28, 2020, 03:53:31 AM
There is evidence.(evidence is the correct word)
There is no such instruments which can either see or measure space-time. So what do you mean by evidence?

Off the top of my head, we have extremely sensitive gravimeters that show differing levels of gravitational acceleration at different altitudes.

We have seen that the Sun bends light that passes very close to it.

We have detected gravitational waves.

Spacetime will be dragged and pulled along with a spinning object, we have measured this effect.

All of this evidence, and more shows that the universe behaves as the theory of space-time predicts.

There is a massive amount of evidence backing up Einsteins theories.

It's not proof of course, science doesn't deal in proof, but there is a LOT of evidence out there.  It's one of the most studied and experimentally validated theories in existence. You could easily spend days just reading about all the basic experiments and evidence for it, and a lifetime to read and understand all of it.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 28, 2020, 04:18:58 AM
We have detected gravitational waves.

Spacetime will be dragged and pulled along with a spinning object, we have measured this effect.

ONLY the MODIFIED repulsive gravitation Einstein equations can detect gravitational waves (binary pulsars), NOT the original Einstein equations which do not have a dynamical bounded solution:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2229278#msg2229278

Aether frame dragging:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg1911878#msg1911878

Modern science accepts the existence of dark matter and dark energy (which have not been detected, so say mainstream scientists), yet it rejects ether and aether which have been detected by various experiments.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 28, 2020, 04:20:58 AM
There is a massive amount of evidence backing up Einsteins theories.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg865008#msg865008

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg769750#msg769750
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 28, 2020, 04:59:49 AM
There is evidence.(evidence is the correct word)
There is no such instruments which can either see or measure space-time. So what do you mean by evidence?
Experiments have been performed.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 28, 2020, 07:37:55 AM
Quote
We have seen that the Sun bends light that passes very close to it.
All matter is composed of atoms. Nuclei are about 100,000 times smaller than the atoms they’re housed in.  Since Atoms are the building blocks of matter therefore it is said the human body is almost empty spaces (99.99999%). If this is true then aren’t all these celestial bodies are also almost empty spaces as well if yes then how do they bend space-time at such a large scale as quoted when atomic particles don’t have the ability of bend space-time unless in a collection?
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 28, 2020, 08:00:57 AM
Quote
We have seen that the Sun bends light that passes very close to it.
All matter is composed of atoms. Nuclei are about 100,000 times smaller than the atoms they’re housed in.  Since Atoms are the building blocks of matter therefore it is said the human body is almost empty spaces (99.99999%). If this is true then aren’t all these celestial bodies are also almost empty spaces as well if yes then how do they bend space-time at such a large scale as quoted when atomic particles don’t have the ability of bend space-time unless in a collection?

Because it doesn't matter.

What weighs more, ten 1 pound iron balls or one 10 pound iron ball? Same mass, different forms.

What's heavier, a pound of feathers or a pound of lead? Same answer.

Mass is what bends space-time, it doesn't matter if you poke holes in it, squish it, or perforate it.  It still has the same mass.

You are also wrong that atomic particles can't bend space-time. They can, they just bend it VERY VERY VERY slightly. Thats why we use the Sun to measure such experiments, it's mass is big enough for our puny human machines to measure. If we had Godlike powers we could see spacetime being bent by a single atom, but we do not. Yet.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 28, 2020, 08:10:35 AM
Mass is what bends space-time

Cut the crap you troll.

Dr. Erik Verlinde (2019):

General Relativity remains just a description of the force we call gravity. It leaves unanswered the key question of exactly how matter affects space and time.

Provide the mechanism by which mass bends spacetime.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 28, 2020, 09:18:48 AM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stress–energy_tensor
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 28, 2020, 09:46:30 AM
Here is the correct stress-energy tensor equation:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d92d/7f8b7771e0e3c4df0a25b712d7de2274ed59.pdf
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 28, 2020, 10:16:16 AM
Quote
You are also wrong that atomic particles can't bend space-time. They can, they just bend it VERY VERY VERY slightly
Then why don t you consider these slight distortion of space-time individually instead of taking a celestial body as a whole. it will limit the bending of space time to the actual size of celestial body.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 28, 2020, 11:35:36 AM
Quote
You are also wrong that atomic particles can't bend space-time. They can, they just bend it VERY VERY VERY slightly
Then why don t you consider these slight distortion of space-time individually instead of taking a celestial body as a whole. it will limit the bending of space time to the actual size of celestial body.

If you put two one-pound weights on a scale, what will it read?

You can certainly calculate the bending of light by the Sun using every individual atom that makes up the sun if you want, and have a very long time to run the calculations. It's much simpler, and just as accurate to calculate it using the Sun's entire mass at once. You get the same answer either way.

Each atom bends things a little, but put enough atoms together and it bends space-time a lot.

The Sun isn't limited to the effect of just one single atom, just as you are not limited in what you can do by how much a single atom can manage.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 28, 2020, 11:39:19 AM
Here is the correct stress-energy tensor equation:

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/d92d/7f8b7771e0e3c4df0a25b712d7de2274ed59.pdf

One paper from a phd candidate is not an end all.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 28, 2020, 11:51:04 AM
Dr. C.Y. Lo has two PhDs, physics and mathematics.

"When Einstein received a Nobel Prize (1922) for great achievements in Physics, there was a special note saying that the prize was given “without taking into account ... relativity and gravitational theories”". That is because the chairman of the Nobel prize committee, A. Gullstrand, found out that the Einstein equations do not have a bounded dynamical solution.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 28, 2020, 12:28:08 PM
Or it was for the photo electric effect.

If he has two phds why did he simplify E=mc2?

Anyways still doesn’t make a paper an absolute. And of course most of the paper is incompatible with what you claim. Further more, I don’t care. You asked a question and I provided some info.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 28, 2020, 09:42:46 PM
Quote
You get the same answer either way.
The bending of the space-time is outward if the whole mass of earth is considered.

The bending of the space-time is inside the whole mass of earth (99% empty as explained) if the mass of the each individual atomic particle is considered.
Quote
If he has two phds why did he simplify E=mc2?
K.E = 0.5 mv^2
P.E= mgh
E =mc^2

Now
E = mgh=mc^2
"m" cancel out;
We get  gh=c^2 ----- Eq 1

Similarly, 0.5mv^2 = mc^2
"m" cancel out;
we get 0.5v^2=c^2  ….. Eq 2

What is the meaning of Eq 1 and eq 2
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Unconvinced on August 29, 2020, 03:22:51 AM
Quote
You get the same answer either way.
The bending of the space-time is outward if the whole mass of earth is considered.

The bending of the space-time is inside the whole mass of earth (99% empty as explained) if the mass of the each individual atomic particle is considered.
Quote
If he has two phds why did he simplify E=mc2?
K.E = 0.5 mv^2
P.E= mgh
E =mc^2

Now
E = mgh=mc^2
"m" cancel out;
We get  gh=c^2 ----- Eq 1

Similarly, 0.5mv^2 = mc^2
"m" cancel out;
we get 0.5v^2=c^2  ….. Eq 2

What is the meaning of Eq 1 and eq 2

No meaning at all.

The E in E=mc^2 is the energy that would be released if you  completely annihilate a mass.

It has nothing to do with gravitational potential energy or kinetic energy for a given situation.

You’ve just slapped some equations together randomly and got total nonsense.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 29, 2020, 04:27:32 AM
Quote
You get the same answer either way.
The bending of the space-time is outward if the whole mass of earth is considered.

The bending of the space-time is inside the whole mass of earth (99% empty as explained) if the mass of the each individual atomic particle is considered.
Quote
If he has two phds why did he simplify E=mc2?
K.E = 0.5 mv^2
P.E= mgh
E =mc^2

Now
E = mgh=mc^2
"m" cancel out;
We get  gh=c^2 ----- Eq 1

Similarly, 0.5mv^2 = mc^2
"m" cancel out;
we get 0.5v^2=c^2  ….. Eq 2

What is the meaning of Eq 1 and eq 2

No meaning at all.

The E in E=mc^2 is the energy that would be released if you  completely annihilate a mass.

It has nothing to do with gravitational potential energy or kinetic energy for a given situation.

You’ve just slapped some equations together randomly and got total nonsense.
Do you know what energy is?

All (above) three are ENERGY equations.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 29, 2020, 05:01:52 AM
Quote
You get the same answer either way.
The bending of the space-time is outward if the whole mass of earth is considered.

The bending of the space-time is inside the whole mass of earth (99% empty as explained) if the mass of the each individual atomic particle is considered.

What do you mean space-time is bending outward?

Again, consider a one pound piece of lead and a one pound piece of foam. Which is heavier? One is mostly empty space, the other is very dense.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 29, 2020, 05:58:18 AM
Quote
You get the same answer either way.
The bending of the space-time is outward if the whole mass of earth is considered.

The bending of the space-time is inside the whole mass of earth (99% empty as explained) if the mass of the each individual atomic particle is considered.

What do you mean space-time is bending outward?

Again, consider a one pound piece of lead and a one pound piece of foam. Which is heavier? One is mostly empty space, the other is very dense.
If you consider the mass as a whole then the bending of the space time happens outside the whole mass.
if you consider the masses of all atomic particles individually of the whole mass as then the bending of the space time happens within the wholw mass not outside the whole mass
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 29, 2020, 06:04:51 AM
Quote
You get the same answer either way.
The bending of the space-time is outward if the whole mass of earth is considered.

The bending of the space-time is inside the whole mass of earth (99% empty as explained) if the mass of the each individual atomic particle is considered.

What do you mean space-time is bending outward?

Again, consider a one pound piece of lead and a one pound piece of foam. Which is heavier? One is mostly empty space, the other is very dense.
If you consider the mass as a whole then the bending of the space time happens outside the whole mass.
if you consider the masses of all atomic particles individually of the whole mass as then the bending of the space time happens within the wholw mass not outside the whole mass

Why would this be?
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Unconvinced on August 29, 2020, 06:33:51 AM
Do you know what energy is?

All (above) three are ENERGY equations.

No shit, Sherlock.

That doesn’t change the fact that you are using them wrong.

Your equations would only be valid, if you were converting one type of energy into another.  You can do this with kinetic energy and potential energy for example when you drop something.  You can work out the potential energy difference between two heights and that gives you the kinetic energy gained over that distance.  Although if you drop through a medium like air, there will also be some energy loss from drag.

But when you drop something, you don’t convert any of the mass into energy, do you?  So why do you think Einstein’s equation is relevant?

That’s twice in this thread where you’ve lashed out at my attempts to explain by patronising me.  Well, allow me to respond in kind.

BAD NEWS, SUNSHINE.  The ability to look up equations on Google does not equal knowing how to apply them in any meaningful way.    You apparently think your TINY and completely INADEQUATE level of knowledge on the subject is superior to all the physicists and engineers who bothered to actually study this, because of course you do.

I don’t suppose it’s ever occurred to you that you could have spent the time it takes writing your LAUGHABLE NONSENSE doing some basic mechanics tutorials, and you’d probably understand where you’re going wrong by now?

But no, I expect you’ll carry on declaring you’ve found a fatal flaw in ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL  mechanics that has somehow been missed by everyone who has used these equations to build all the technology you take for granted over the last few hundred years.

LOL
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 29, 2020, 07:03:24 AM
Quote
You get the same answer either way.
The bending of the space-time is outward if the whole mass of earth is considered.

The bending of the space-time is inside the whole mass of earth (99% empty as explained) if the mass of the each individual atomic particle is considered.
Quote
If he has two phds why did he simplify E=mc2?
K.E = 0.5 mv^2
P.E= mgh
E =mc^2

Now
E = mgh=mc^2
"m" cancel out;
We get  gh=c^2 ----- Eq 1

Similarly, 0.5mv^2 = mc^2
"m" cancel out;
we get 0.5v^2=c^2  ….. Eq 2

What is the meaning of Eq 1 and eq 2

No meaning at all.

The E in E=mc^2 is the energy that would be released if you  completely annihilate a mass.

It has nothing to do with gravitational potential energy or kinetic energy for a given situation.

You’ve just slapped some equations together randomly and got total nonsense.
Do you know what energy is?

All (above) three are ENERGY equations.
As pointed out, you are wrong. E=mc2 Is rest mass energy. It’s not the full equation.

What you did was set potential energy equal to kinetic energy. This is incorrect.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 29, 2020, 07:04:49 AM
Do you know what energy is?

All (above) three are ENERGY equations.

No shit, Sherlock.

That doesn’t change the fact that you are using them wrong.

Your equations would only be valid, if you were converting one type of energy into another.  You can do this with kinetic energy and potential energy for example when you drop something.  You can work out the potential energy difference between two heights and that gives you the kinetic energy gained over that distance.  Although if you drop through a medium like air, there will also be some energy loss from drag.

But when you drop something, you don’t convert any of the mass into energy, do you?  So why do you think Einstein’s equation is relevant?

That’s twice in this thread where you’ve lashed out at my attempts to explain by patronising me.  Well, allow me to respond in kind.

BAD NEWS, SUNSHINE.  The ability to look up equations on Google does not equal knowing how to apply them in any meaningful way.    You apparently think your TINY and completely INADEQUATE level of knowledge on the subject is superior to all the physicists and engineers who bothered to actually study this, because of course you do.

I don’t suppose it’s ever occurred to you that you could have spent the time it takes writing your LAUGHABLE NONSENSE doing some basic mechanics tutorials, and you’d probably understand where you’re going wrong by now?

But no, I expect you’ll carry on declaring you’ve found a fatal flaw in ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL  mechanics that has somehow been missed by everyone who has used these equations to build all the technology you take for granted over the last few hundred years.

LOL
B3
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Unconvinced on August 29, 2020, 07:45:29 AM

B3

That’s better.  Always best to stick to something your own level.  Internet slang seems about right.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 29, 2020, 08:13:42 AM
ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL  mechanics that has somehow been missed by everyone who has used these equations to build all the technology you take for granted over the last few hundred years.

Cut the crap.

The jet engine was invented by Viktor Schauberger, using ether theory.

The B-2 bomber flies using the Biefeld-Brown effect.

Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Unconvinced on August 29, 2020, 08:45:13 AM
ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL  mechanics that has somehow been missed by everyone who has used these equations to build all the technology you take for granted over the last few hundred years.

Cut the crap.

The jet engine was invented by Viktor Schauberger, using ether theory.

The B-2 bomber flies using the Biefeld-Brown effect.

I must have missed those modules, along with every other mechanical engineering student at every university.

These effects appear in no standard texts that engineers learn.  Newton’s laws of motion and universal gravitation on the other hand are in the first few pages of all the relevant books (a great many of them).

I wonder how engineers working at the likes of Boeing, Airbus, GE, Rolls-Royce, etc. manage to design functional aircraft and engines if they’re using all the wrong physics as you claim?

Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 29, 2020, 09:17:00 AM
ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL  mechanics that has somehow been missed by everyone who has used these equations to build all the technology you take for granted over the last few hundred years.

Cut the crap.

The jet engine was invented by Viktor Schauberger, using ether theory.

The B-2 bomber flies using the Biefeld-Brown effect.

I must have missed those modules, along with every other mechanical engineering student at every university.

These effects appear in no standard texts that engineers learn.  Newton’s laws of motion and universal gravitation on the other hand are in the first few pages of all the relevant books (a great many of them).

I wonder how engineers working at the likes of Boeing, Airbus, GE, Rolls-Royce, etc. manage to design functional aircraft and engines if they’re using all the wrong physics as you claim?

His airplanes claims are mind boggling.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 29, 2020, 10:07:02 AM
ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL  mechanics that has somehow been missed by everyone who has used these equations to build all the technology you take for granted over the last few hundred years.

Cut the crap.

The jet engine was invented by Viktor Schauberger, using ether theory.

The B-2 bomber flies using the Biefeld-Brown effect.

I must have missed those modules, along with every other mechanical engineering student at every university.

These effects appear in no standard texts that engineers learn.  Newton’s laws of motion and universal gravitation on the other hand are in the first few pages of all the relevant books (a great many of them).

I wonder how engineers working at the likes of Boeing, Airbus, GE, Rolls-Royce, etc. manage to design functional aircraft and engines if they’re using all the wrong physics as you claim?

His airplanes claims are mind boggling.

If you think there is a vast worldwide conspiracy to hide the shape of the Earth, lie about all of recorded human history and the entire scientific revolution is faked and wrong... then imagining that planes have hidden anti-gravity machines in them isn't much of a stretch anymore.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 29, 2020, 10:21:55 AM
Few researchers know that the jet engine was designed by Viktor Schauberger.

In documents dated 1941, V. Schauberger describes how Professor Ernst Heinkel, the designer of the first successful jet-plane (first flight 27 Aug 1939), had illegally obtained sight of Viktor's preliminary applications at the Patent Office in Berlin through his patent attorneys, Lehmann-Harlens. Having studied them carefully, Heinkel then expressed his disinterest in them, but immediately inaugurated a covert research programme using this information in modified form to improve the performance of his 1,000 kph fighter, most probably the He 280. This was an indictable infringement of Viktor's still confidential application. Wishing to avoid discovery and in order to continue to make use of the unlawfully obtained data, Heinkel fraudulently attempted to have Viktor's patent restricted to the conversion of sea water into fresh water only, by having its application to aircraft and submarine propulsion disallowed.

https://web.archive.org/web/20170611101930/http://free-energy.xf.cz/SCHAUBERGER/Living_Energies.pdf

The story goes like this, as narrated by Schauberger and from his letter-correspondence:

At some point in time Schauberger met Heinkel. He mentioned his special "Turbine" for propulsion which shall have an extraordinary performance. Heinkel was interested and Schauberger explained the engine to him, drew sketches etc. He then said to Heinkel, that if he's interested in building a prototype, then he shall contact him for making an arrangement. But he didn't hear anything from him anymore, so he thought that Heinkel wasn't interested.

Much later Schauberger heard through the SS, that Heinkel actually built a prototype which flew over 1000km/h, but which had frequent completely unpredictable engine stalls, and that their technicians are out of ideas of how to fix this. When they explained to him, how Heinkel made the Piston-Engine/Turbine aggregate, he said, that he knew immediately what Heinkel was doing wrong, and that in this arrangement an engine stall would be logic.

Although Heinkel never had the honesty to reveal the source of the ideas for his invention, keeping all the kudos for himself, this jet plane was nevertheless built as a direct result of Viktor's theories. Viktor Schauberger is therefore the real father of the present jet age . He even went as far as to state that in order to develop and build fast-flying, supersonic aircraft successfully, the bodily forms of deep-sea fish should be copied. Today's 'stealth bombers' very much emulate these forms.

Viktor Schauberger patents:

http://www.rexresearch.com/schaub/schaub.htm#117749

(http://discaircraft.greyfalcon.us/picturesc/sch250.jpg)
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/az3N4.jpg)

"If water or air is rotated into a twisting form of oscillation known as ‘colloidal’, a build up of energy results, which, with immense power, can cause levitation. This form of movement is able to carry with it its own means of power generation. This principle leads logically to its application in the design of the ideal airplane or submarine... requiring almost no motive power."

V. Schauberger

http://discaircraft.greyfalcon.us/Viktor%20Schauberger.htm
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 29, 2020, 10:47:20 AM
Jet engines work by equal and opposite reaction. Exhaust goes one way and the plane goes the other.

I’m not sure how a sane person can believe otherwise.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sandokhan on August 29, 2020, 11:24:38 AM
Are you going to call Hermann Weyl insane?

Here is the antigravitational Weyl-Ivanov formula:

(https://i.ibb.co/5YW8CPH/bie1.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/M8576CJ/bie2.jpg)

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0507082.pdf

Weyl electrovacuum solutions and gauge invariance
Dr. B.V. Ivanov

https://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0502047.pdf

On the gravitational field induced by static electromagnetic sources
Dr. B.V Ivanov
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 29, 2020, 11:35:03 AM
Why do airplanes need to reach takeoff speed? Why is takeoff speed not zero?
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 29, 2020, 11:44:44 AM
Are you going to call Hermann Weyl insane?

He isn't the one I'd use the insane label on.  :P
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 31, 2020, 06:26:19 AM
Why do airplanes need to reach takeoff speed? Why is takeoff speed not zero?

Dear sandokhan,

Do you have time to answer this question?

Sincerely

Sock
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 31, 2020, 11:18:34 AM
Why do airplanes need to reach takeoff speed? Why is takeoff speed not zero?
Why would airplanes need a take-off angle if the earth is round? Do they adjust for curvature when flying parallel to the ground?
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 31, 2020, 11:29:32 AM
Why do airplanes need to reach takeoff speed? Why is takeoff speed not zero?
Why would airplanes need a take-off angle if the earth is round? Do they adjust for curvature when flying parallel to the ground?

The shape of the Earth has nothing to do with how an airplane takes off.  It's simple physics.  This stuff is taught in high school.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airfoil

Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 31, 2020, 11:42:42 AM
Quote
This stuff is taught in high school.
They teach good stuff but not all are correct. I asked "Do pilots adjust for curvature when they fly parallel to the ground"? just like moving jet on the runway

Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on August 31, 2020, 11:50:33 AM
Why do airplanes need to reach takeoff speed? Why is takeoff speed not zero?
Why would airplanes need a take-off angle if the earth is round? Do they adjust for curvature when flying parallel to the ground?
I didn’t mentions angle. I mentioned takeoff speed.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on August 31, 2020, 12:22:08 PM
Quote
This stuff is taught in high school.
They teach good stuff but not all are correct. I asked "Do pilots adjust for curvature when they fly parallel to the ground"? just like moving jet on the runway

Yes, planes tilt as they follow the curve.  A plane that has gone halfway around the world will have tilted downward 180 degrees.  If it makes it back to where it started it will have tilted a full 360.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 31, 2020, 10:31:57 PM
Why do airplanes need to reach takeoff speed? Why is takeoff speed not zero?
Why would airplanes need a take-off angle if the earth is round? Do they adjust for curvature when flying parallel to the ground?
I didn’t mentions angle. I mentioned takeoff speed.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on August 31, 2020, 10:32:49 PM
Quote
This stuff is taught in high school.
They teach good stuff but not all are correct. I asked "Do pilots adjust for curvature when they fly parallel to the ground"? just like moving jet on the runway

Yes, planes tilt as they follow the curve.  A plane that has gone halfway around the world will have tilted downward 180 degrees.  If it makes it back to where it started it will have tilted a full 360.
How often in ref to distance?
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on September 01, 2020, 05:48:25 AM
Quote
This stuff is taught in high school.
They teach good stuff but not all are correct. I asked "Do pilots adjust for curvature when they fly parallel to the ground"? just like moving jet on the runway

Yes, planes tilt as they follow the curve.  A plane that has gone halfway around the world will have tilted downward 180 degrees.  If it makes it back to where it started it will have tilted a full 360.
How often in ref to distance?

1 degree every 70 miles.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on September 01, 2020, 06:59:16 AM
Quote
This stuff is taught in high school.
They teach good stuff but not all are correct. I asked "Do pilots adjust for curvature when they fly parallel to the ground"? just like moving jet on the runway

Yes, planes tilt as they follow the curve.  A plane that has gone halfway around the world will have tilted downward 180 degrees.  If it makes it back to where it started it will have tilted a full 360.
How often in ref to distance?

1 degree every 70 miles.
Ref pls.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on September 01, 2020, 07:17:41 AM
Why do airplanes need to reach takeoff speed? Why is takeoff speed not zero?
Why would airplanes need a take-off angle if the earth is round? Do they adjust for curvature when flying parallel to the ground?
I didn’t mentions angle. I mentioned takeoff speed.

Oh

If an airplane doesn’t lift of the ground it will not leave the ground.

Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JJA on September 01, 2020, 09:28:23 AM
Quote
This stuff is taught in high school.
They teach good stuff but not all are correct. I asked "Do pilots adjust for curvature when they fly parallel to the ground"? just like moving jet on the runway

Yes, planes tilt as they follow the curve.  A plane that has gone halfway around the world will have tilted downward 180 degrees.  If it makes it back to where it started it will have tilted a full 360.
How often in ref to distance?

1 degree every 70 miles.
Ref pls.

If you want the math, here you go.

Diameter of the Earth: 8,000 mi
Circumference of Earth: 8,000 x 3.14159 = 25132.7
Degrees in a Circle: 360

25132.7 / 360 = 69.8

So about every 70 miles you have to tilt down 1 degree.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JackBlack on September 02, 2020, 02:34:13 AM
It seems I am late to the party, but as you invited me in from another thread, I will try to respond summing it all up.

In many ways, this is quite analogous to electrostatic interactions.
The force between 2 charged particles is given by F=kQq/d^2.
But you can easily describe the nature of the elctric field around a single particle.

That is given by E (noting this is to denote the field, not an energy):
E=kQ/d^2.

This field exists even when you only have one particle.
It generates a force on another charged particle as:
F=qE.

Then the acceleration is given as a=(q/m)*E.

The same can be done with gravity, noting that "q" for gravity is m.

Using this method for gravity, there is clearly a force, even if you want to jump straight to the acceleration, skipping the force.
You could do the same with electrostatics. a=kQq/mr^2.
That doesn't mean no force is involved or that a charged particle can accelerate other charged particles without a force.

The fact that gravitational mass and inertial mass is always observed to be the same was one of the big puzzles about gravity (and still is to some extent).
However it was mostly addressed by relativity which has gravity not actually being a force and instead having it be the curvature of space time.

A mass (or energy density) would bend spacetime with the extent of curvature depending on mass/energy density and the distance to the object.
Then, anything else would merely follow the curvature of spacetime in an inertial path.
In this model, there is no real force, and instead you have an inertial force.

how do they bend space-time at such a large scale as quoted when atomic particles don’t have the ability of bend space-time unless in a collection?
They can bend space time. Everything can.
It is just a single atom all by itself will curve it by an insignificant amount.
But if you have a massive amount of these, those insignificant amounts build up.

It is like if you had a container with absolutely nothing in it, and put it a single molecule of water, that is still basically nothing in it. But but in a massive amount and you end up with a container full of water.

Then why don t you consider these slight distortion of space-time individually instead of taking a celestial body as a whole. it will limit the bending of space time to the actual size of celestial body.
Because doing it all at once is a much simpler calculation.
What would you rather do, a single calculation or roughly 10^50 of them (for Earth)?

It will not limit it to the edge of the body.

Even a tiny mass bends spacetime extremely far away. It is just that it bends it by an extremely tiny amount.

As for your energy equations, you can't just take completely different energy equations and equate them like that.
They are fundamentally different equations, with different meanings.

The full equation would be more like E=rest energy + kinetic energy + potential energy.
Where potential energy is in turn composed of gravitational potential energy, electrostatic potential energy and so on.
If you want to do it from the individual components, then you also throw in binding energy.
All you are doing is converting it from energy to specific energy.

I asked "Do pilots adjust for curvature when they fly parallel to the ground"? just like moving jet on the runway
They do so automatically by maintaining altitude.
They need to adjust their attitude to be able to maintain their altitude.
There is no specific requirement to adjust specifically for the curve as it is already taken care of.
Title: Re: Role gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JackBlack on September 02, 2020, 02:35:06 AM
W=mg, which is a flat earth equation
No, it is a simplification, based upon the assumption that the value of g varies insignificantly for the object.
It isn't a flat Earth equation as g is not a constant but varies as you move around Earth (and change altitude).

Mass is what bends space-time
Cut the crap you troll.
General Relativity remains just a description of the force we call gravity. It leaves unanswered the key question of exactly how matter affects space and time.
Yes, it doesn't describe how matter bends spacetime, just that it does, and the results of it doing so.

The B-2 bomber flies using the Biefeld-Brown effect.
Are you sure it isn't using the wings for aerodynamic lift, along with engines to provide thrust?
That sure seems more likely.
Especially considering it isn't just magical anti-gravity and instead the wings produce a force roughly perpendicular to them called lift, which is dependent upon the velocity of the wing, so a plane can't just fly straight up.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on September 02, 2020, 06:57:54 AM
With is continual refusal to answer simple questions I think it’s safe to throw sandokhan’s arguments in a trash can.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on September 02, 2020, 10:41:20 AM
Quote
In many ways, this is quite analogous to electrostatic interactions.
One word – not impressive! Although its very clear but I’m writing again. I would suggest reading the posts carefully again and again not just you – no rude at all as it is not about the win or loss.

G is the proportionality constant. It depends upon the force b/w 2 masses and the square of o/c distance b/t them as F =Gm1m2/d^2 =mg where g = Gm1/d^2,

Considering “g” separately from force F as g = Gm1/d^2, means G is considered separately from force F which is impossible. Therefore I would say “G” is wrongly placed in g=GM/d^2.

Two objects are must for the presence of gravitational force “F” [F=GMm/d^2, where g=GM/d^2] and gravitational constant “G”. Gravitational force “F“ should generate gravitational acceleration “g” but “g” which is equal to GM/d^2 independent of second mass (falling mass) and gravitational force “F”.

As said, gravitational constant “G” is wrongly placed in g=GM/d^2 as explained above.

If you say, “there is clearly a force” then there is clearly a second mass (falling one) as well. Then all objects do not fall at the same rate.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JackBlack on September 02, 2020, 02:07:50 PM
G is the proportionality constant. It depends upon the force b/w 2 masses and the square of o/c distance b/t them as F =Gm1m2/d^2 =mg where g = Gm1/d^2
It doesn't depend on the force, it determines it.

If you say, “there is clearly a force” then there is clearly a second mass (falling one) as well. Then all objects do not fall at the same rate.
No. There being a force doesn't mean that all objects don't fall at the same rate.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on September 02, 2020, 11:08:33 PM
G is the proportionality constant. It depends upon the force b/w 2 masses and the square of o/c distance b/t them as F =Gm1m2/d^2 =mg where g = Gm1/d^2
It doesn't depend on the force, it determines it.
So how does force F is determine from G=gd^2/M?
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JackBlack on September 03, 2020, 01:42:23 AM
So how does force F is determine from G=gd^2/M?
F=GMm/d^2.
i.e. the force is dependent upon G.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: E E K on September 03, 2020, 04:42:25 AM
So how does force F is determine from G=gd^2/M?
F=GMm/d^2.
i.e. the force is dependent upon G.
So you unable to determine F from G=gd^2/M - Right?
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JackBlack on September 03, 2020, 04:55:50 AM
So how does force F is determine from G=gd^2/M?
F=GMm/d^2.
i.e. the force is dependent upon G.
So you unable to determine F from G=gd^2/M - Right?
No, I provided how.
G is used to calculate the force.
The equation used is F=GMm/d^2.

That is determining the force from G.

The force is not just dependent upon G, just like the force in electrostatic interactions is not just dependent upon k.

G is a constant. While you can determine its value from equations it appears in from experimental results, that in no way negates it being used to determine the force.
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: sokarul on September 03, 2020, 05:55:16 AM
I’m still wanting to make a real post but until then, is it just me or is it supposed to be r2 not d2?
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: JackBlack on September 03, 2020, 02:15:31 PM
I’m still wanting to make a real post but until then, is it just me or is it supposed to be r2 not d2?
It can be either, as long as you know what it stands for, and I have seen it presented in many ways.
Some people use r for radius as that works nicely for an orbit and is consistent with F=m omega^2 r=m v^2/r.
Others use d for distance, sometimes to not confuse it with the radius of the object.

What is important is the meaning, not the variables used to represent them.

And if you want to get into the more technical level of how to represent them, as they represent physical quantities they should be in italic font, and then because they are both masses, both should be represented by a lowercase, italic m, with superscripts to distinguish between them.
e.g. F = G m1 m2 / r2
Title: Re: Role of gravitational force F=GMm/d^2 b/t two objects?
Post by: Unconvinced on September 05, 2020, 10:31:29 AM
Quote
In many ways, this is quite analogous to electrostatic interactions.
One word – not impressive! Although its very clear but I’m writing again. I would suggest reading the posts carefully again and again not just you – no rude at all as it is not about the win or loss.

G is the proportionality constant. It depends upon the force b/w 2 masses and the square of o/c distance b/t them as F =Gm1m2/d^2 =mg where g = Gm1/d^2,

Considering “g” separately from force F as g = Gm1/d^2, means G is considered separately from force F which is impossible. Therefore I would say “G” is wrongly placed in g=GM/d^2.

Two objects are must for the presence of gravitational force “F” [F=GMm/d^2, where g=GM/d^2] and gravitational constant “G”. Gravitational force “F“ should generate gravitational acceleration “g” but “g” which is equal to GM/d^2 independent of second mass (falling mass) and gravitational force “F”.

As said, gravitational constant “G” is wrongly placed in g=GM/d^2 as explained above.

If you say, “there is clearly a force” then there is clearly a second mass (falling one) as well. Then all objects do not fall at the same rate.

Still stuck on this I see.

Seems the only hope is for you to start plugging some numbers into the equations and see what happens.

I suggest this.

1.  Open up a spreadsheet as it’s the easiest way to see a bunch of different values side by side.  (Download Open Office if you don’t have one).

2.  First Row:  Mass m.  Write a bunch of  different masses for the falling object.  Perhaps  1kg, 10kg, 100kg, etc but it doesn’t matter.

3. Second row:  Force F.  Use F=GMm/d^2 with M as mass of Earth, d as radius of Earth (for gravity at sea level) and m taken from above row.

4.  Third row:  Acceleration a.  Use a = F/m using the numbers from  rows 1 and 2.

5.  Report back.  What do you see?