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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Crouton on December 09, 2019, 11:23:32 AM

Title: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 09, 2019, 11:23:32 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/

The short version.  Our presence in Afghanistan has been a massive dumpster fire and our government has been trying to hide it.

A lot of this has been speculated about.  It's interesting to see it confirmed with evidence and testimony.  It reminds me of every time I watched a terrible big budget movie and wonder why they didn't hire a writer first so that the story could make sense.  It almost makes me think that Trump was right to just want to GTFO of there.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Lorddave on December 09, 2019, 12:01:54 PM
Wow.
I mean, I'm kinda shocked.  You'd think they would have known that Afghanastan is not America or Europe.  That the culture is very different but no... they tried to Americanize it.  No wonder they hate us.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 09, 2019, 12:11:32 PM
It's one of the most surprising things.  We spent a trillion dollars.  Nobody bothered to pick up a history book and read up on the place?
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Space Cowgirl on December 09, 2019, 12:33:32 PM
This is insane. 11 million dollars for "lessons learned" but they don't think the public has a right to know about it.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Lorddave on December 09, 2019, 12:52:52 PM
It's one of the most surprising things.  We spent a trillion dollars.  Nobody bothered to pick up a history book and read up on the place?
I think it's all the "We're the greatest country on Earth.  So thus everyone should be like us" mentality America has.

Me, I'd have gone "Ok, y'all figure out what kinda government you want and we'll help ya make it."
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 09, 2019, 01:08:02 PM
It's one of the most surprising things.  We spent a trillion dollars.  Nobody bothered to pick up a history book and read up on the place?
I think it's all the "We're the greatest country on Earth.  So thus everyone should be like us" mentality America has.

Me, I'd have gone "Ok, y'all figure out what kinda government you want and we'll help ya make it."

In retrospect I'm not sure what I would do.  Maybe blowing up terrorist training camps in a flashy show of power and then declare victory and leave.

I think we would have been better off spending that trillion dollars on renewable energy.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: The Real Celine Dion on December 09, 2019, 02:43:44 PM
I thought everyone knew the Afghan war was a total farce.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 09, 2019, 02:55:16 PM
Yes but how much of a farce is the question.  There's so many interesting points in there.  It says 30% of the Afghans they were training to be soldiers would just sign up for a rifle, then leave, then use that rifle setup their own checkpoints to shake down travelers. 
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: The Real Celine Dion on December 09, 2019, 02:57:34 PM
We needed to take care of Al-Quida and all, but after that we should have given them the blueprint for a democratic society and let them deal with it.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 09, 2019, 11:04:48 PM
They had no concept of Democracy.
It's just another religion to them.

All we needed to do was contain the terrorists
and cut off the country from the rest of the world until
whatever government was in place got tired of them.

It would not have taken 18 years.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 10, 2019, 12:21:42 AM
Good thing Wise has me blocked.  I'm going to post in his identical thread and fuck with him.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Shifter on December 10, 2019, 01:42:26 AM
Now given how much America really wanted to Americanise Afghanistan, is it too much a stretch to imagine the 'September 11 attacks' were at the very least, allowed to happen to be the gift that America needed to get in and fuck with the Middle East?

By that I mean, the intelligence agencies knew of the impending attacks and did not try to stop it. I'm not saying they sponsored it but honestly, given this is America - I sadly would not be surprised if that were true.

Almost every other country on Earth knew Afghanistan would never be 'Americanized'. So why did America think it so? They also fucked up their chances on resolving conflicts elsewhere abroad. Do you think North Korea wants to do a deal with America after what they saw America do in Libya? And comments like "We Came, we Saw, he Died".

America's biggest problem is that they just dont think far enough ahead.

After all that money spent, lives lost and destroyed the public should demand to know everything and hold those responsible to account. Because honestly, if the public continues to give the government a free pass to 'do whatever the hell they want', the next dumpster fire will be America.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Lorddave on December 10, 2019, 03:04:18 AM
Now given how much America really wanted to Americanise Afghanistan, is it too much a stretch to imagine the 'September 11 attacks' were at the very least, allowed to happen to be the gift that America needed to get in and fuck with the Middle East?
It is.  I'm certain they knew about a potential plot involving airplanes but nothing specific.  I mean, can you imagine the kind of people who would go "lets kill a thousand people on American soil just so we can 'fix' the middle east?  No, its more likely they had sketchy and vague intel that was dismissed or not seen as enough information to shut down airports.

Quote
After all that money spent, lives lost and destroyed the public should demand to know everything and hold those responsible to account. Because honestly, if the public continues to give the government a free pass to 'do whatever the hell they want', the next dumpster fire will be America.
America IS a dumpster fire.  Have you seen it?
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet II on December 10, 2019, 06:28:32 AM
Afghanistan is a beautiful harsh land steeped in a troubled history, the reason being itís really good at growing opium.
A few facts, the UK invaded twice, way back (Victorian), both times congruent with the opium wars we had with the Qing dynasty in China, drugs have always one of the best ways of undermining a nation, flood cheap narcotics into a market you destabilise the country, pacifying its workforce/potential army and splitting society as those with the vast amounts of wealth generated defend themselves against others who see that wealth and want it.

In the late 70ís early 80ís the Russians wanted control and set up a puppet government, Maggie and Ronnie in the name of all that was holy sent the CIA and SAS to train the Mujahedeen in the use of roadside bombs and guerrilla tactics, who then taught their sons and so on, who managed to force out the Russians using the methods they now use on the US forces (are your Marines aware it was their fathers who taught Afghans how to blow up their own sons?), so the plucky Mujahedeen were the heroes. The CIA were paid in opium for the $3bn worth of weapons.
And the US had no real care what type of government got in as long as the CIA could still get their opium. There was an internal battle in the US that drugs would sort out, that of black consciousness, the burgeoning civil rites movement that looked for a while it would sweep away the white strangle hold on power, until black areas were swamped with copious drugs, cheap guns and bling, swapping Martin Luther King for a paltry 50cents, the dream died. Maggie used the same tactics to destroy a generation to head off potential backlash to the poverty measures and breaking of the unions as demanded by the IMF.
 
Fast forward, the Mujahedeen become the Taliban, same people perhaps slightly more religiously inclined, galvanised by an influx of fighters from Saudi indoctrinated Wahhabi ultraconservatives, in 2001 they burnt pretty much the whole crop, why? The official line is it was un-Islamic or that it was under pressure from the UN to limit heroin production, none of this adds up. More likely to boost prices, the 2 years before they had un-Islamic bumper crops, opium stores well.

The CIA clearly didnít like this a year later the war against terror, invasion and the production in heroin rises.
 
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Afghanistan_opium_poppy_cultivation_1994-2007b.PNG/400px-Afghanistan_opium_poppy_cultivation_1994-2007b.PNG)

And has risen ever since.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Space Cowgirl on December 10, 2019, 07:52:25 AM
America's biggest problem is that they just dont think far enough ahead.

I think our biggest problem (regarding war) is that we've allowed those who profit to run the show. All that money didn't disappear into thin air. A huge chunk of what our military used to do has been transferred to private contractors.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: JimmyTheCrab on December 10, 2019, 08:31:10 AM
I think our biggest problem (regarding war) is that we've allowed those who profit to run the show.
Isn't that the American Way?
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: markjo on December 10, 2019, 10:13:07 AM
America's biggest problem is that they just dont think far enough ahead.

I think our biggest problem (regarding war) is that we've allowed those who profit to run the show.
I disagree.  I think that the biggest problem is that no one had a plan for what to do after the war.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 10, 2019, 10:19:22 AM
I think part of it is that we put the military in charge of everything.  They're very good at smashing things.  Their skillset is not building a society.

Maybe if we had a different department that specialized in nation building it would be a different story.  Of course the optics of having such a department would look terrible.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Space Cowgirl on December 10, 2019, 10:20:08 AM
We could probably hire a lifestyle coach to do it.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 10, 2019, 10:23:00 AM
Send in Dr. Phil!
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Shifter on December 10, 2019, 12:51:44 PM
America's biggest problem is that they just dont think far enough ahead.

I think our biggest problem (regarding war) is that we've allowed those who profit to run the show.
I disagree.  I think that the biggest problem is that no one had a plan for what to do after the war.

Was there even a plan to finish the war?
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Space Cowgirl on December 10, 2019, 12:53:42 PM
He thinks the war is over, I suppose.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: JimmyTheCrab on December 11, 2019, 01:52:32 AM
America's biggest problem is that they just dont think far enough ahead.

I think our biggest problem (regarding war) is that we've allowed those who profit to run the show.
I disagree.  I think that the biggest problem is that no one had a plan for what to do after the war.
Seems they had lots of plans.  The problem is that the plans were shit and incompetently executed.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Bom Tishop on December 11, 2019, 04:51:19 AM
First of all....I don't see how the OP can be a surprise to anyone. That surprises me more than the OP.


I think part of it is that we put the military in charge of everything.  They're very good at smashing things.  Their skillset is not building a society.

Maybe if we had a different department that specialized in nation building it would be a different story.  Of course the optics of having such a department would look terrible.

Lol, right.... Our moronic, absolutely corrupt "leaders" would do an amazing job "fixing" other countries.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 11, 2019, 05:15:31 AM
If everyone is equal, nobody sucks.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Shifter on December 11, 2019, 05:26:19 AM
If everyone is equal, nobody sucks.

Or everyone sucks
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 11, 2019, 05:34:53 AM
If everyone is equal, nobody sucks.

Or everyone sucks

yep
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: markjo on December 11, 2019, 06:24:14 AM
He thinks the war is over, I suppose.
I suppose that I didn't realize that there was ever a declaration of war.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Space Cowgirl on December 11, 2019, 07:01:19 AM
He thinks the war is over, I suppose.
I suppose that I didn't realize that there was ever a declaration of war.

You didn't mind calling it war when you disagreed with me. Have you changed your mind?
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: markjo on December 11, 2019, 07:50:44 AM
He thinks the war is over, I suppose.
I suppose that I didn't realize that there was ever a declaration of war.

You didn't mind calling it war when you disagreed with me. Have you changed your mind?
It depends on how pedantic I'm feeling at any given moment.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: JimmyTheCrab on December 12, 2019, 06:44:39 AM
He thinks the war is over, I suppose.
I suppose that I didn't realize that there was ever a declaration of war.
When was the last time anyone actually declared war on anyone?  And what has that got to do with whether there is a war?
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Titus on December 14, 2019, 03:19:31 PM
I thought everyone knew the Afghan war was a total farce.

NO WAY!

I, like OP only just found out anything at all wa a wrong with it.

These papers are terrible, just terrible. I hope a few newspapers write a few soft articles about it and then the people in charge get promotions again.

The Americans are so stupid losing trillions of dollars in an unwinnable war for "reasons." They won't let themselves leave but the war doesn't benefit them at all it only costs them.

I wonder why they are still there if no one profits from the wars? Maybe they just like wasting money.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Titus on December 14, 2019, 03:20:23 PM
America's biggest problem is that they just dont think far enough ahead.

I think our biggest problem (regarding war) is that we've allowed those who profit to run the show. All that money didn't disappear into thin air. A huge chunk of what our military used to do has been transferred to private contractors.

Where did the money go and which companies?
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Stash on December 14, 2019, 05:41:23 PM
He thinks the war is over, I suppose.
I suppose that I didn't realize that there was ever a declaration of war.
When was the last time anyone actually declared war on anyone?  And what has that got to do with whether there is a war?

Technically, for the US, that would be WWII. Apparently a formal congressional declaration hasn't been required since the 40's. So it matters not.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Shifter on December 14, 2019, 08:55:04 PM
Here's another though.

America needs its war machine to keep running. It keeps their soldiers trained, battle hardened and experienced. Comes in handy when a war for real hits them. Wars like Vietnam were useful for testing new weapons and strategies.

If there were no wars or fighting for decades, American troops would be weak. So they keep inventing enemies and reasons to fight other nations

War also breeds ingenuity and innovation. Of course America doesn't care about the people it kills for it though.

When Trump got elected this endless war crap was one thing I and many others hoped he would end (if only for the money it wastes). We all hoped he would be different not being a typical politician. But he has disappointed.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 14, 2019, 11:07:58 PM
If we just wander off and go home we will be embarrassed.   ::)
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Shifter on December 15, 2019, 12:29:17 AM
If we just wander off and go home we will be embarrassed.   ::)

Meh. Your embarrassing yourselves now. Might as well save money while doing it  :)
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 15, 2019, 01:02:39 AM
If we just wander off and go home we will be embarrassed.   ::)

Meh. Your embarrassing yourselves now. Might as well save money while doing it  :)

Meh. That's kinda what I said.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 15, 2019, 07:01:02 AM
I'm having... Trouble... Typing.. The... Words...

Trump may be right.

Just fucking leave. No exit strategy. No note. While the country is asleep just grab all our shit and go.

I feel that we may be victim to what's known in the investing world as a sunk cost fallacy.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Shifter on December 15, 2019, 07:09:20 AM
I'm having... Trouble... Typing.. The... Words...

Trump may be right.

Just fucking leave. No exit strategy. No note. While the country is asleep just grab all our shit and go.

I feel that we may be victim to what's known in the investing world as a sunk cost fallacy.

Then why are you still there? Just pack up your shit and go. No one wants you there. They are probably more than happy to pick up the pieces of the mess you left then have your continued presence there.

Would you rather have a squatter simply leave your house in a filthy and damaged state or insist they remain and clean it up first? I'd cut my losses and have them just leave
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 15, 2019, 07:15:41 AM
I'm having... Trouble... Typing.. The... Words...

Trump may be right.

Just fucking leave. No exit strategy. No note. While the country is asleep just grab all our shit and go.

I feel that we may be victim to what's known in the investing world as a sunk cost fallacy.

Then why are you still there? Just pack up your shit and go. No one wants you there. They are probably more than happy to pick up the pieces of the mess you left then have your continued presence there.

Would you rather have a squatter simply leave your house in a filthy and damaged state or insist they remain and clean it up first? I'd cut my losses and have them just leave

Based off what I know. If Trump orders a complete withdraw and an executive order to pretend like the whole thing never happened. It would probably be the most positive thing he's done as president.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Lorddave on December 15, 2019, 07:28:49 AM
Yes it could be done but the power vaccume we'd create would be worse.  Or bad guys would win.

Ex: in Syria, Assad, a dictator, would prevail and everyone who fought for freedom would die for nothing.
In Afghanistan, the government would collapse and fragment groups of islamic based assholes would rip through everything and essentially make life hell for everyone instead of a few.  Then they'd build up strength and hit us again as revenge.

What we need is not to build nations in our image, but to let them be built in theirs.  Without the assholes.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 15, 2019, 07:36:15 AM
Ex: in Syria, Assad, a dictator, would prevail and everyone who fought for freedom would die for nothing.

That's what I mean by the sunk cost fallacy.

Yes it could be done but the power vaccume we'd create would be worse.  Or bad guys would win.

Ex: in Syria, Assad, a dictator, would prevail and everyone who fought for freedom would die for nothing.
In Afghanistan, the government would collapse and fragment groups of islamic based assholes would rip through everything and essentially make life hell for everyone instead of a few.  Then they'd build up strength and hit us again as revenge.

I am very unclear as to what effect leaving would have on the current government.  Maybe it can already be described as a failed government with Islamists running around and breaking shit.  Maybe leaving might have the effect of improving the situation.  After this it's clear that I can't trust our government's assessment of the situation.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 15, 2019, 08:47:37 AM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/

The short version.  Our presence in Afghanistan has been a massive dumpster fire and our government has been trying to hide it.

A lot of this has been speculated about.  It's interesting to see it confirmed with evidence and testimony.  It reminds me of every time I watched a terrible big budget movie and wonder why they didn't hire a writer first so that the story could make sense.  It almost makes me think that Trump was right to just want to GTFO of there.

I mean, I've been saying it...
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 15, 2019, 08:53:51 AM
They had no concept of Democracy.
It's just another religion to them.

All we needed to do was contain the terrorists
and cut off the country from the rest of the world until
whatever government was in place got tired of them.

It would not have taken 18 years.
That's a bit too harsh a stance on the US, don't you think? Surely your military can learn to behave without having to cut the entire country from the rest of the world.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 15, 2019, 08:59:06 AM
I think part of it is that we put the military in charge of everything.  They're very good at smashing things.  Their skillset is not building a society.

Maybe if we had a different department that specialized in nation building it would be a different story.  Of course the optics of having such a department would look terrible.
Yes, because it is terrible. I can't figure out why this shit keeps happening over and over and over and the only lesson people take out of it is "huh, maybe if we set up a better committee in charge of conquest and subordination things could have gone better". I can't figure out why people don't see how invading a country on the other side of the world and then "building a society" based on what a bunch of shitheads in Washington think better serves their interests is obviously wrong, even after all the evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Crouton on December 15, 2019, 09:06:07 AM
I think part of it is that we put the military in charge of everything.  They're very good at smashing things.  Their skillset is not building a society.

Maybe if we had a different department that specialized in nation building it would be a different story.  Of course the optics of having such a department would look terrible.
Yes, because it is terrible. I can't figure out why this shit keeps happening over and over and over and the only lesson people take out of it is "huh, maybe if we set up a better committee in charge of conquest and subordination things could have gone better". I can't figure out why people don't see how invading a country on the other side of the world and then "building a society" based on what a bunch of shitheads in Washington think better serves their interests is obviously wrong, even after all the evidence to the contrary.

To be fair it did work in post ww2 Europe and Japan.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 17, 2019, 04:08:18 AM

That's a bit too harsh a stance on the US, don't you think?

We owe nothing to anyone.

Want our money?  Dance.

Threaten death on our nation, die.


Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: JimmyTheCrab on December 17, 2019, 08:46:57 AM

That's a bit too harsh a stance on the US, don't you think?

We owe nothing to anyone.

Want our money?  Dance.

Threaten death on our nation, die.
OK big boy.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 17, 2019, 03:27:07 PM
I think part of it is that we put the military in charge of everything.  They're very good at smashing things.  Their skillset is not building a society.

Maybe if we had a different department that specialized in nation building it would be a different story.  Of course the optics of having such a department would look terrible.
Yes, because it is terrible. I can't figure out why this shit keeps happening over and over and over and the only lesson people take out of it is "huh, maybe if we set up a better committee in charge of conquest and subordination things could have gone better". I can't figure out why people don't see how invading a country on the other side of the world and then "building a society" based on what a bunch of shitheads in Washington think better serves their interests is obviously wrong, even after all the evidence to the contrary.

To be fair it did work in post ww2 Europe and Japan.

It kinda seems like it "worked" if you skip over almost the entire second half of the twentieth century. In most of the places where it just "worked" were cases where nothing was really imposed on the countries, or where there were enough people that wanted the "conversion", and even then it's questionable in many cases. Brilliant American society building experiments are the reason why there is an annual protest ending in the American embassy in Athens on the 17th of November. A lot of Americans aren't very well informed about stuff like the role of the CIA in these countries, or the Truman doctrine, or the backing/establishment of military juntas, or downright insane shit right out of a spy movie like Operation Gladio, and they think people in these countries don't like the US because they're jealous or insane or something.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 22, 2019, 12:49:18 AM
. . . or downright insane shit right out of a spy movie like Operation Gladio, and they think people in these countries don't like the US because they're jealous or insane or something.

World Wars come from Europe.
Do you think the USofA should just wait until you folks fuck shit up again
before we need to step in and waste blood and treasure on you?

Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Lorddave on December 22, 2019, 02:32:44 AM
. . . or downright insane shit right out of a spy movie like Operation Gladio, and they think people in these countries don't like the US because they're jealous or insane or something.

World Wars come from Europe.
Do you think the USofA should just wait until you folks fuck shit up again
before we need to step in and waste blood and treasure on you?

In fairness, its worked before.  But when we pre-emptive, it blows up in our face.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 22, 2019, 06:06:31 AM
. . . or downright insane shit right out of a spy movie like Operation Gladio, and they think people in these countries don't like the US because they're jealous or insane or something.

World Wars come from Europe.
Do you think the USofA should just wait until you folks fuck shit up again
before we need to step in and waste blood and treasure on you?
I'm kinda done attempting to seriously respond to your fantasy version of history and world politics. I think I'm just gonna post this list:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_United_States

Maybe open a book once in a while too.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet II on December 22, 2019, 10:45:47 AM

I think it's an interweb meme that yanks run around saying how they saved the world twice whilst forgetting actual history, the gory mess they made of south America and of course that they got their asses handed to them on a plate by the Vietnamese, not sure if they do it in irony.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Space Cowgirl on December 22, 2019, 02:03:31 PM
Ignoring history is the most patriotic thing we do.
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: JimmyTheCrab on December 24, 2019, 07:14:21 AM
blood and treasure on you?
What are you? A pirate?
Title: Re: A spectacular dumpster fire.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 26, 2019, 05:24:31 AM
blood and treasure on you?
What are you? A pirate?

nope, Drama Queen