The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: magcynic on October 11, 2019, 10:45:46 AM

Title: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: magcynic on October 11, 2019, 10:45:46 AM

These are three observable facts.  Now consider the following placement for Sigma Octantis.  It is one of many possible placements.

(https://i.imgur.com/pJ3v6oB.png)

All of the following must be observably true in order for the Earth to be flat:


And if the problem is distance, then consider that a person at green can ALWAYS see the star in reality despite being further away from yellow who can NEVER see the star in reality.  This all begs the question.  Where is Sigma Octantis on a flat Earth? 
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 11, 2019, 12:21:07 PM
They dont believe stars are what we think stars are.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: EvolvedMantisShrimp on October 11, 2019, 12:55:26 PM
They dont believe stars are what we think stars are.

True enough. But whatever they are, there needs to be an astonishing explanation why it can be seen due south from wherever you are in the Southern Hemisphere; often simultaneously. And scientific evidence to back it up.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: magcynic on October 11, 2019, 05:34:44 PM
I would say a logical conclusion could be that everyone at those locations would be seeing a different star and we only think we're all looking at the same star.  Unfortunately, given some coordination across multiple locations, it should be fairly easy to determine that, yes, that is the same star we're all looking at to the south in the southern hemisphere. 
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 11, 2019, 05:47:21 PM
Others believe south of the eqautor doesnt actually exist and is made up to fool everyone.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: magcynic on October 11, 2019, 05:50:10 PM
Others believe south of the eqautor doesnt actually exist and is made up to fool everyone.

I've never heard any flat Earther even remotely hint at this.  Have any video or article? 

I'm not so much interested in "smashing" the flat Earth theory as I am curious as to how a flat Earther - a true flat Earther - would explain this.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 11, 2019, 08:13:17 PM
There once was a above dweller (upper forum) named rab who claimed to live in australia.
But he got too fiesty and was banished to the underworld (lower forums).
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Gumwars on October 11, 2019, 08:23:03 PM
I've never heard any flat Earther even remotely hint at this.  Have any video or article? 

I'm not so much interested in "smashing" the flat Earth theory as I am curious as to how a flat Earther - a true flat Earther - would explain this.

The true flat earthers avoid this problem like the plague.  The more notable responses that I recall are Danang's reversing the issue (the south pole is in the middle and the north pole is where the ice wall is).  The others will not directly address this issue other than to say you can't prove it.  And by prove it, they mean proving the paradox of Sigma Octantis.  Like you need more than one person in the southern hemisphere, at night, looking south at the southern polar star and saying they both see it due south of them.  I know, that sounds nuts but hey, we have found ourselves in this remote corner of the internet, discussing, of all things, how to prove the Earth isn't flat.  Like that is actually something that needs proving...
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 12, 2019, 11:37:29 AM
Do a Google search for "flat earth southern star rotation". You are responsible for researching your opponent's position.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Stash on October 12, 2019, 11:58:53 AM
Do a Google search for "flat earth southern star rotation". You are responsible for researching your opponent's position.

We're not talking 'star rotation', we're talking how one can observe sigma octantis on a flat earth from multiple southern hemisphere locations. On a flat earth, AE north pole centered model, you can't. However, on a globe earth you can and it is observably shown to be so. In other words, the globe model matches reality, the flat model does not.

(https://flatearth.ws/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/southern-sky.jpg)
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Platonius21 on October 12, 2019, 12:02:23 PM
Do a Google search for "flat earth southern star rotation". You are responsible for researching your opponent's position.
Well you are an established Flat Earth Believer. Why not just answer his question?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: magcynic on October 12, 2019, 01:02:26 PM
Do a Google search for "flat earth southern star rotation". You are responsible for researching your opponent's position.

That is not even remotely my question.  The issue is the location of this one particular star.  Sigma Octantis doesn't really move much in the sky anyways like other stars do. That's the point of selecting this specific star.  Let's focus on one topic at a time, shall we?

Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: levitator on October 12, 2019, 01:46:18 PM
Sigma Octantis is only magnitude 5.5.  That's pretty faint for naked-eye observation, and I reckon plenty of Southern hemisphere residents have never seen it - even if they know where to look!  So perhaps if there are any FE'ers south of the equator, they probably aren't that bothered anyway.

What they should be bothered about - if they go to somewhere in the Southern hemisphere but not too far from the equator (e.g. Peru) and look north, they may see the Plough but upside down, with the two 'pointers' leading to a point below the horizon.  Answer me that!  Where's Polaris?  ;)
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: JackBlack on October 12, 2019, 01:50:27 PM
Do a Google search for "flat earth southern star rotation". You are responsible for researching your opponent's position.
While one could say a side in a debate has some responsibility for researching their opponents position, they have no burden to provide arguments for their opposition.
The person claiming Earth is flat needs to provide it.
Also, a common tactic with those with no answers is to tell people to search for the answers which they claim already exist.

If it is so simple, it should be easy for you to provide the answers.

The south celestial pole (and its corresponding star) show there must be a south pole.
This cannot be a point out in wildly different directions.
It shows that if you go due south on Earth, it needs to converge to a point (or be a cylinder).

This shows that the north pole centred AEP presented as the common FE map, cannot be a true map of a flat Earth.

You could switch to a south pole centred one, but that just shifts the problem to the north with the north pole star.

You could switch to one centred on the equator to get a bipolar one, but that just shifts the problem to the equator with the sun on the equinox.

The only actual solution to the problem (rather than just pushing the problem around) is to make Earth into a roughly spherical, cylindrical or bi-conical shape.

If you think there is another solution, feel free to present it, clearly explaining why a point can be observed looking outwards, in completely different directions.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Gumwars on October 12, 2019, 03:07:43 PM
Do a Google search for "flat earth southern star rotation". You are responsible for researching your opponent's position.

Is every FE proponent as dense as you are?  The question has nothing to do with rotation, star trails, or how stars south of the equator move through the night sky.  It has to do with Sigma Octantis's location in the night sky relative to multiple observers in the southern hemisphere looking due south.  Its a problem that you, John Davis, or any other FE cultist has not been successful at figuring out.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 12, 2019, 03:42:24 PM
All of that is addressed, if you only expend minimal effort to search and find where the models are described.  ::)

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=flat+earth+southern+star+rotation
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 12, 2019, 03:56:20 PM
All of that is addressed, if you only expend minimal effort to search and find where the models are described.  ::)

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=flat+earth+southern+star+rotation

If your model cant be modeled then why are you harping in another thread about 3body math?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: kopfverderber on October 12, 2019, 04:14:26 PM
Here's Tom's answer then, which is the same as having no answer. 

Quote
Q. How can two people on opposite sides of the earth in Australia and South Ameirca both see the same South Pole Stars simultaneously?
A. Since those areas are many hours apart from each other, when it is night or dusk for one area it is likely day or dawn for the other. It is questioned whether it is the case that those observers see the same stars simultaneously. Due to the time difference it may be that they see the stars alternately.

Sigma  Octantis is in fact visible at the
same time from Australia and South America for a few days each year, or from South America and South Africa. Another FE fail.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Stash on October 12, 2019, 04:14:35 PM
All of that is addressed, if you only expend minimal effort to search and find where the models are described.  ::)

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=flat+earth+southern+star+rotation

I did google it and none of it explains why observers looking south in the southern hemisphere can see sigma octantis on a globe but not all observers on a flat earth can. This is the OP question, nothing about star rotation.

Why not address the OP rather than going off topic?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 12, 2019, 04:19:33 PM
All of that is addressed, if you only expend minimal effort to search and find where the models are described.  ::)

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=flat+earth+southern+star+rotation

I did google it and none of it explains why observers looking south in the southern hemisphere can see sigma octantis on a globe but not all observers on a flat earth can. This is the OP question, nothing about star rotation.

Why not address the OP rather than going off topic?

That's funny. I found the explanation in the first link of that search. Sounds like you need to look harder.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Gumwars on October 12, 2019, 04:23:16 PM
All of that is addressed, if you only expend minimal effort to search and find where the models are described.  ::)

http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=flat+earth+southern+star+rotation

Did you even bother to actually look at what your search yields?  I'm guessing if you did, you'd see that the problem presented IS NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE ON THE PAGE.

So, I'll repeat it again as your cognitive faculties appear to be defective:

Explain the paradoxical location of Sigma Octantis if the world was flat.  Why, in the real world, viewers in South America and Australia are able to both look due south and see Crux but if we observe the Gleason map, we find that each viewer is looking in different directions? 
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 12, 2019, 04:24:40 PM
Did you even bother to actually look at what your search yields?  I'm guessing if you did, you'd see that the problem presented IS NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE ON THE PAGE.

Actually, it is. First link, fourth paragraph in.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Stash on October 12, 2019, 04:27:59 PM
Did you even bother to actually look at what your search yields?  I'm guessing if you did, you'd see that the problem presented IS NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE ON THE PAGE.

Actually, it is. First link, fourth paragraph in.

How does it work for when both SA and Africa are in darkness:

(https://i.imgur.com/RX2fvCg.png?1)

Versus

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/4/43/Map.png/450px-Map.png)
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Gumwars on October 12, 2019, 04:29:07 PM
Did you even bother to actually look at what your search yields?  I'm guessing if you did, you'd see that the problem presented IS NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE ON THE PAGE.

Actually, it is. First link, fourth paragraph in.

Are you being deliberately dishonest or are you mental?  This answer (first link, fourth SENTENCE, as there is only one paragraph on the page):

A. Since those areas are many hours apart from each other, when it is night or dusk for one area it is likely day or dawn for the other. It is questioned whether it is the case that those observers see the same stars simultaneously. Due to the time difference it may be that they see the stars alternately.

Does not address the problem, not even remotely.  Care to try again?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 12, 2019, 04:31:20 PM
Did you even bother to actually look at what your search yields?  I'm guessing if you did, you'd see that the problem presented IS NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE ON THE PAGE.

Actually, it is. First link, fourth paragraph in.

Are you being deliberately dishonest or are you mental?  This answer (first link, fourth SENTENCE, as there is only one paragraph on the page):

A. Since those areas are many hours apart from each other, when it is night or dusk for one area it is likely day or dawn for the other. It is questioned whether it is the case that those observers see the same stars simultaneously. Due to the time difference it may be that they see the stars alternately.

Does not address the problem, not even remotely.  Care to try again?

What you quoted shows your error. It is an error to think that people at different times of the day can see the same stars simultaneously.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Gumwars on October 12, 2019, 04:32:06 PM
This response on Quora explains the issue very well, with diagrams:

https://www.quora.com/How-does-Flat-Earth-theory-account-for-the-Southern-Cross

Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 12, 2019, 04:34:42 PM
Did you even bother to actually look at what your search yields?  I'm guessing if you did, you'd see that the problem presented IS NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE ON THE PAGE.

Actually, it is. First link, fourth paragraph in.

How does it work for when both SA and Africa are in darkness:

(https://i.imgur.com/RX2fvCg.png?1)

Versus

(https://wiki.tfes.org/images/thumb/4/43/Map.png/450px-Map.png)

The explanation says that a wide range of stars is squished into a small area. Why can't those locations see the same stars at the same time?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Gumwars on October 12, 2019, 04:36:49 PM
Did you even bother to actually look at what your search yields?  I'm guessing if you did, you'd see that the problem presented IS NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE ON THE PAGE.

Actually, it is. First link, fourth paragraph in.

Are you being deliberately dishonest or are you mental?  This answer (first link, fourth SENTENCE, as there is only one paragraph on the page):

A. Since those areas are many hours apart from each other, when it is night or dusk for one area it is likely day or dawn for the other. It is questioned whether it is the case that those observers see the same stars simultaneously. Due to the time difference it may be that they see the stars alternately.

Does not address the problem, not even remotely.  Care to try again?

What you quoted shows your error. It is an error to think that people at different times of the day can see the same stars simultaneously.

I'm afraid it shows your ignorance or delusion, not my error Mr. Bishop.  If this is the extent of FE rebutting the paradox of Sigma Octantis, you might as well hang it up.  Your response is that they can't see it at the same time, as if the oceans are devoid of sailors, and there is never a point in time where more than one landmass is night long enough to see the same constellation.  If that is truly your answer, then you are an idiot.

I've noted that you rarely, if ever, respond with more than a single sentence.  Why is that, I wonder?  An individual that claims such intellectual prowess surely is capable of formulating a reply beyond "go google it", am I right?  No, you've fooled no one.  The fact that you've chosen this particular hill to die on merely confirms what most already know about you. 

Ignorant.  Deluded.  Lost.  or just a plain old liar. 
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: JackBlack on October 12, 2019, 05:09:43 PM
All of that is addressed, if you only expend minimal effort to search and find where the models are described.
Again, if it was so easily addressed, you would provide it here, rather than just avoiding providing the explanations and instead appealing to their existence.

I have expended plenty of effort to find an answer and found none. I have found plenty of distractions, but no answers.

So why do you expend the minimal effort and provide an explanation?

That's funny. I found the explanation in the first link of that search. Sounds like you need to look harder.
That's funny. I found a complete avoidance of the issue where it claims that they aren't actually seeing the same stars, appealing to people 12 hours apart, ignoring the fact that during winter, they can see the south celestial pole at the same time.

It also ignores the fact that it isn't just these 2 extremes.
You can have 2 people separated by 2 minutes seeing the same south celestial pole, and then another 2 minutes, and another and another and so on.

If they were separate stars, people would not only see it due south. Instead it would also be seen east or west of due south, and some people would see 2 of them. (In fact, with the stars just being in a plane well above us, everyone should be able to see them all.)

So do you actually have an answer, or just avoidance of the issue?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: EvolvedMantisShrimp on October 12, 2019, 06:05:54 PM
Did you even bother to actually look at what your search yields?  I'm guessing if you did, you'd see that the problem presented IS NOT MENTIONED ANYWHERE ON THE PAGE.

Actually, it is. First link, fourth paragraph in.

Are you being deliberately dishonest or are you mental?  This answer (first link, fourth SENTENCE, as there is only one paragraph on the page):

A. Since those areas are many hours apart from each other, when it is night or dusk for one area it is likely day or dawn for the other. It is questioned whether it is the case that those observers see the same stars simultaneously. Due to the time difference it may be that they see the stars alternately.

Does not address the problem, not even remotely.  Care to try again?

What you quoted shows your error. It is an error to think that people at different times of the day can see the same stars simultaneously.

So... visualize that: The star doesn't move. It remains due South from dusk til dawn. All other stars rotate around it. Then, as soon as the Sun Rises, it zips thousands of miles around to get ready for the next light show in another continent??? Seriously??? Do you honestly think nobody has ever been on a boat in the South Pacific at night???  ???

Edit: What about two people only a hundred miles apart on the same continent? They are both looking at two different due Souths and still seeing the same stars.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 12, 2019, 06:19:23 PM
So... visualize that: The star doesn't move. It remains due South from dusk til dawn. All other stars rotate around it. Then, as soon as the Sun Rises, it zips thousands of miles around to get ready for the next light show in another continent??? Seriously??? Do you honestly think nobody has ever been on a boat in the South Pacific at night???  ???

Edit: What about two people only a hundred miles apart on the same continent? They are both looking at two different due Souths and still seeing the same stars.



The outer stars on the NIGHT side of the earth are squished into a small area and centered opposite from the northern rotation, 180 degrees from Polaris. Sigma octantis is merely one of the comparatively brighter stars on the outer reaches of the star disk, that is constrained to a small area opposite of North as described in the video.

Sigma Octantis is on the NIGHT side of the earth, and so it should be no surprise that anyone in NIGHT in the south will see it. It is centered opposite of North for the reasons described in the video.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: EvolvedMantisShrimp on October 12, 2019, 06:33:14 PM
I'm about a third of the way through. I've been watching it a bit at a time so my brain doesn't suffer this trauma all at once.

My first question is this: How did someone this stupid figure out how to post a Youtube video???

I have several more, but I can't express them without excessive profanity. Perhaps when I have recovered.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Gumwars on October 12, 2019, 07:06:21 PM
So... visualize that: The star doesn't move. It remains due South from dusk til dawn. All other stars rotate around it. Then, as soon as the Sun Rises, it zips thousands of miles around to get ready for the next light show in another continent??? Seriously??? Do you honestly think nobody has ever been on a boat in the South Pacific at night???  ???

Edit: What about two people only a hundred miles apart on the same continent? They are both looking at two different due Souths and still seeing the same stars.





The outer stars on the NIGHT side of the earth are squished into a small area and centered opposite from the northern rotation, 180 degrees from Polaris. Sigma octantis is merely one of the comparatively brighter stars on the outer reaches of the star disk, that is constrained to a small area opposite of North as described in the video.

Sigma Octantis is on the NIGHT side of the earth, and so it should be no surprise that anyone in NIGHT in the south will see it. It is centered opposite of North for the reasons described in the video.

If you believe this idiot successfully explains the paradox, you are an idiot too.  Tom, the Southern Cross is a constellation that has been successfully used by sea going humans for centuries as a navigational aide.  Its location is critical in the process of both figuring out where you are and determining where you are going, especially for a vessel at sea that has no land in sight.  The FACT that it is due south, regardless of where you are in the southern hemisphere is the problem FE faces when it presents the Earth as being anything like the Gleason map.  At every spoke of longitude, at the "ring" that is Antarctica, in the night sky there is Sigma Octantis.  Any given night, at least two of those major longitudinal spokes are blanketed in darkness, with Sigma Octantis visible.  Guess what?  It only appears in one point to all observers; due south.  We don't see it repeating at every degree of longitude and simultaneously only visible in one location to every observer.  That is the paradox and what you have yet to explain.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: EvolvedMantisShrimp on October 12, 2019, 07:09:49 PM
Okay, I finished.

I don't have the words. It's like it was recorded by someone who has never actually seen a sky(nevermind a night sky) for more than three seconds at a time. Nothing made sense. Light changing direction for no other reason than they happen to be passing you? And somehow, they do that for everybody on Earth at the same time? And somehow, this is used as an explanation for the exact opposite happening with light from the stars? For that video to make less sense, it would have to be recorded in Apache and then played backwards. There's no way a rational person could accept that load of garbage and I pray that Tom Bishop posted it just to waste our time. Because the alternative....

...I need some alcohol.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: JackBlack on October 12, 2019, 08:14:20 PM
The outer stars on the NIGHT side of the earth are squished into a small area and centered opposite from the northern rotation, 180 degrees from Polaris. Sigma octantis is merely one of the comparatively brighter stars on the outer reaches of the star disk, that is constrained to a small area opposite of North as described in the video.
That does not explain why they are visible due south for everyone.
That is what you need to address.
That is what you have continued to avoid.

Sigma Octantis is on the NIGHT side of the earth
Yes, the "night" side, which during the southern winter can cover a very large angular span, over 180 degrees.
Yet for the entire duration of night, the south celestial pole remains due south.
This makes no sense for a FE.

And no, anti-crepuscular rays can't help here. They are parallel lines which appear to converge. You would need lines radiating outwards magically converging, which makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: magcynic on October 12, 2019, 09:11:19 PM
So... visualize that: The star doesn't move. It remains due South from dusk til dawn. All other stars rotate around it. Then, as soon as the Sun Rises, it zips thousands of miles around to get ready for the next light show in another continent??? Seriously??? Do you honestly think nobody has ever been on a boat in the South Pacific at night???  ???

Edit: What about two people only a hundred miles apart on the same continent? They are both looking at two different due Souths and still seeing the same stars.



The outer stars on the NIGHT side of the earth are squished into a small area and centered opposite from the northern rotation, 180 degrees from Polaris. Sigma octantis is merely one of the comparatively brighter stars on the outer reaches of the star disk, that is constrained to a small area opposite of North as described in the video.

Sigma Octantis is on the NIGHT side of the earth, and so it should be no surprise that anyone in NIGHT in the south will see it. It is centered opposite of North for the reasons described in the video.

We can test if that video's theory is true by simply turning around.  If I'm in the northern hemisphere and look north, the stars are rotating correctly.  According to that video, if I turn towards the south on a flat Earth, the stars should suddenly be turning in the opposite direction.  This does not match reality and thus is not a good explanation.

Also, if the your argument is that the sky rotates around the Earth, then that also means people in the northern hemisphere would ALSO be able to see Sigma Octantis with a telescope, right?  On a flat Earth, distance would not matter with a powerful enough telescope.  As it is literally impossible for anyone north of a certain latitude to see Sigma Octantis, I can assume that the Earth is not flat. 
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: kopfverderber on October 13, 2019, 01:58:33 AM
https://wiki.tfes.org/Southern_Celestial_Rotationü
Quote
Under the Monopole model P-Brane explains the counter-rotation of the stars as a consequence of perspective. The author uses the Sun's crepuscular rays as an example for how motion and perspective can seem to cause anti-rotations in two different directions, much like how spinning in an office chair and looking up and down can cause the appearance of two rotations in different directions.

So according to FE wiki the sky looks like looking up and down from a spinning earth, I mean chair. Not bad.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 13, 2019, 05:04:26 AM
TomB, is the earth a flat disc with center around the north pole? 
Or is it a east west flatness?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Unconvinced on October 13, 2019, 10:03:21 AM
https://wiki.tfes.org/Southern_Celestial_Rotationü
Quote
Under the Monopole model P-Brane explains the counter-rotation of the stars as a consequence of perspective. The author uses the Sun's crepuscular rays as an example for how motion and perspective can seem to cause anti-rotations in two different directions, much like how spinning in an office chair and looking up and down can cause the appearance of two rotations in different directions.

So according to FE wiki the sky looks like looking up and down from a spinning earth, I mean chair. Not bad.

A perfect explanation if southern stars were seen in the ground and not the sky.

There aren’t enough palms in the world to smash against my face in response to this.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 13, 2019, 12:58:08 PM
No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConcernedUnfinishedDunnart-size_restricted.gif)
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: magcynic on October 13, 2019, 01:10:13 PM
No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConcernedUnfinishedDunnart-size_restricted.gif)

Indeed.  By that demonstration then, a person in the northern hemisphere could change the observed spin by simply turning around, right?  This is all getting besides the point, though.  To get back on point...

A person living in Perth, Australia can see Sigma Octantis (or the constellation Octans) at 4am by looking due south.  In Johannesburg, South Africa, a person can view this same star and constellation at 10pm by looking... wait for it... due south.  The problem is that on any flat Earth map, the person in South Africa would have to look east to see these stars.  We can thus conclude that a flat Earth is not physically possible.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: JackBlack on October 13, 2019, 01:12:03 PM
No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.
Yes, it occurs with parallel rays.
It doesn't occur with diverging rays, i.e. rays which actually diverge, spreading out from the centre in reality.

A rotating cardboard tube is more in line with the RE model, than the FE model.
What you need is a cardboard disk.
The cardboard tube has the rotation exactly as you would expect, appearing to rotate the same way as the cardboard tube. Looking to the north it appears to rotate one way, just like the cardboard tube. Looking to the south it appears to rotate the other way, just like the tube.

But that doesn't happen for your celestial disk.
What you need to do is have a disk above the head rotating. That doesn't reverse direction when you look north vs south.

So again, THIS DOES NOT EXPLAIN IT in any way.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 13, 2019, 01:12:22 PM
No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConcernedUnfinishedDunnart-size_restricted.gif)

Indeed.  By that demonstration then, a person in the northern hemisphere could change the observed spin by simply turning around, right?  This is all getting besides the point, though.  To get back on point...

A person living in Perth, Australia can see Sigma Octantis (or the constellation Octans) at 4am by looking due south.  In Johannesburg, South Africa, a person can view this same star and constellation at 10pm by looking... wait for it... due south.  The problem is that on any flat Earth map, the person in South Africa would have to look east to see these stars.  We can thus conclude that a flat Earth is not physically possible.

Watch the last few minutes of the video. P-Brane says that Sigma Octantis is in the middle despite sweeping across your vision because distant elements tend to be converged.

(https://i.ibb.co/2qH2xGB/W2gARym.png)
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: JackBlack on October 13, 2019, 01:15:35 PM
Watch the last few minutes of the video. P-Brane says that Sigma Octantis is in the middle despite sweeping across your vision because distant elements tend to be converged.
Which is pure nonsense.
Yes, distant elements appear to converge, but not to a tiny point after some finite distance.
If something sweeps across your vision, it sweeps across it, not remaining at a single point.
As we aren't discussing the size of it, perspective is irrelevant.

We are discussing its direction, and perspective cannot change that.

If something is to your right, directly right of you, perspective cannot magically make it appear in front of you.

The only explanation for the south celestial pole is that everyone in the south, looking to the south, is looking in basically the same direction when looking to the south celestial pole.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Unconvinced on October 13, 2019, 01:46:48 PM
No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConcernedUnfinishedDunnart-size_restricted.gif)

Oh wow.  That video is an epic hot mess of nonsense.

TFES wiki really went with a P-Brane video for their citation?

To be fair to him, he’s at least trying to answer questions most flat earthers seem to avoid, but no.  This is not how perspective works.  Perspective is nothing but 3D geometry.  Change your position, and get a different view of an object.  Rays of light don’t magically change direction as they pass you, and you don’t see objects behind you, unless the light is reflected off something.

P-Brane seems to suggest that Southern Hemisphere stars are the Northern Hemisphere stars which for some mystical reason appear in the opposite direction of where they really are.  Even ignoring how bonkers that is, why are there completely different constellations?

You don’t seriously believe a word of that do you?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 13, 2019, 02:17:11 PM
Hold up.
Hes using a different map!!!!

OP is usign a north pole centerd map.
TomBs ref video is using the east-west map.
Because you need a map with a north south equator capable of showing the different rotations.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Platonius21 on October 13, 2019, 02:57:52 PM
The whole thing is a joke.

P-Brane

Peabrain

Get it?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: EvolvedMantisShrimp on October 13, 2019, 03:35:17 PM
No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConcernedUnfinishedDunnart-size_restricted.gif)

Indeed.  By that demonstration then, a person in the northern hemisphere could change the observed spin by simply turning around, right?  This is all getting besides the point, though.  To get back on point...

A person living in Perth, Australia can see Sigma Octantis (or the constellation Octans) at 4am by looking due south.  In Johannesburg, South Africa, a person can view this same star and constellation at 10pm by looking... wait for it... due south.  The problem is that on any flat Earth map, the person in South Africa would have to look east to see these stars.  We can thus conclude that a flat Earth is not physically possible.

Watch the last few minutes of the video. P-Brane says that Sigma Octantis is in the middle despite sweeping across your vision because distant elements tend to be converged.

(https://i.ibb.co/2qH2xGB/W2gARym.png)
Except the distant objects aren't converging. They are spreading out across the entire night sky. Sigma Octanis might be at the point in which the sky appears to rotate(the South Celestial Pole), but the sky is still filled all the way around with stars. There's no convergence.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: kopfverderber on October 14, 2019, 01:53:11 AM
At enough southern latitude Sigma Octantis can be observed due south from opposite meridians at the same time

This happens for at least a few weeks during winter from South America / Australia and even longer from Antarctica with 6 months of continuous night.

FE never explain how is this possible in the FE map centered on the north pole.  They either ignore the issue or deny it happens.

Even p-brain video with all the perspective hocus pocus hasn't an answer for that. 

If any FE is still reading this topic, please explain what is the observable difference between polaris and sigma octantis, that makes you think one of them is at the center of the rotating skies and the other one is not.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 14, 2019, 02:22:56 AM
Yes yes the mechanics of it all.
But why and how can tomB be promoting a different map???!!!
Come on TB!
What have you?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: magcynic on October 14, 2019, 07:31:32 AM
I have looked this up and this is testable.  On June 20 (winter solstice in the southern hemisphere) you can take a telescope to Santiago, Chile and Perth, Australia.  At 6:30pm in Perth you can see the constellation Octans (along with Sigma Octantis) in the sky due south and slightly east.  At 6:30am in Santiago (literally the same time), you can see Octans (along with Sigma Octantis) in the sky due south and slightly west.  On every proposed flat Earth map I've seen, these two observers (who are looking at the same set of stars at the same time on the same planet) would be looking in almost opposite directions.

Explain.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: markjo on October 14, 2019, 07:45:50 AM
Perth and Sydney are over 30 degrees of longitude apart.  I'm not sure why that isn't enough to prove the point.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: magcynic on October 14, 2019, 11:18:53 AM
Perth and Sydney are over 30 degrees of longitude apart.  I'm not sure why that isn't enough to prove the point.

Very true.  I suppose I wanted to take the most extreme example I could find in order to make any potential explanation that much more absurd.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: markjo on October 14, 2019, 12:53:16 PM
Perth and Sydney are over 30 degrees of longitude apart.  I'm not sure why that isn't enough to prove the point.

Very true.  I suppose I wanted to take the most extreme example I could find in order to make any potential explanation that much more absurd.
If you want a really absurd explanation, ask Tom about his celestial gears model.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Gumwars on October 15, 2019, 06:52:12 PM
No, the effect also occurs horizontally. The cardboard tube example in the video showed that the rotation was clockwise in one direction and counterclockwise in the other direction, despite the entire structure rotating counter-clockwise.

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ConcernedUnfinishedDunnart-size_restricted.gif)

Indeed.  By that demonstration then, a person in the northern hemisphere could change the observed spin by simply turning around, right?  This is all getting besides the point, though.  To get back on point...

A person living in Perth, Australia can see Sigma Octantis (or the constellation Octans) at 4am by looking due south.  In Johannesburg, South Africa, a person can view this same star and constellation at 10pm by looking... wait for it... due south.  The problem is that on any flat Earth map, the person in South Africa would have to look east to see these stars.  We can thus conclude that a flat Earth is not physically possible.

Watch the last few minutes of the video. P-Brane says that Sigma Octantis is in the middle despite sweeping across your vision because distant elements tend to be converged.

(https://i.ibb.co/2qH2xGB/W2gARym.png)

Tom, this is wild conjecture at best.  You are going to try and sell this when you have working examples of having to points of observation separated by nearly 12 time zones viewing the same star, in roughly the same direction.  The only phenomena at play is flipping stellar parallax, which is 100% expected when looking at a celestial object from opposing sides of the same planet.

This is a non-starter for FE, Mr. Bishop.  Unless, of course, you have some other insane explanation for us to consider.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 15, 2019, 07:03:43 PM
But how can he be using a different map?   
What would these gears look like on the north pole map or is it impossible to animate?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: JackBlack on October 16, 2019, 12:20:41 AM
What would these gears look like on the north pole map or is it impossible to animate?
It is impossible to animate as it requires the stars to be rotating in an axis which is parallel to the surface of Earth (at the point of observation).
For the NP map, the stars would need to be a single disc above the Earth.
The model used in the video requires Earth to be a cylinder or sphere or the like.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 16, 2019, 02:33:04 AM
Exactly.
So how can tomB think this "solution" would pass?
Come on.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: magcynic on October 16, 2019, 11:19:10 AM
Exactly.
So how can tomB think this "solution" would pass?
Come on.

It doesn't pass which is probably why he hasn't been back here.  To be fair, what can you say at that point?  If you're that invested in a flat Earth, you just have to pretend you didn't see the comment or conversation continue. 
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 16, 2019, 11:47:00 AM
TomB uses the east-west map.
Johndavis uses a north map and a south map.
Based on these three projdction maps, yu two have basically made an ugly cube-cylinder shaped earth.
And if we account for distortion we conclude its spheriod.
So what shape is the earth, again?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Macarios on October 28, 2019, 04:38:13 AM
Crepuscular rays rotate?
Nope.

Anti-crepuscular rays are just the opposite ends of the crepuscular rays.
They are the same rays.
They don't rotate, otherwise it would mean that "the Dome" rotates in north-south direction with east-west axis.

Also, northern stars don't extend into southern stars.
We have unique set of the stars at the north and completely different set of the stars at the south.
Since they rotate it means that the dome rotates in east-west direction.

If crepuscular / anti-crepuscular rays rotate AND northern and southern stars rotate,
it would mean that "the Dome" rotates in multiple directions simultaneously.

Now, back to the OP:

The whole story about rotation of stars doesn't explain at all how is Sigma Octatntis
at the same moment visible due south from South Africa and from Argentina
before we even take time to observe any further star rotation.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Themightykabool on October 28, 2019, 05:07:50 AM
But regardless

Still no comment from tomB how he can use an east-west map in his ad hoc explanation of the differnet star trails.

Come on tomB!
How does an east-west map exist?
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: magcynic on October 28, 2019, 03:31:56 PM
As far as I'm concerned this topic is dead.  I've been posting this on Nathan Oakley's discord every now and then and still no response.  No flattie wants to even attempt an explanation.
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: Gumwars on October 31, 2019, 05:08:54 PM
As far as I'm concerned this topic is dead.  I've been posting this on Nathan Oakley's discord every now and then and still no response.  No flattie wants to even attempt an explanation.

There is no explanation they can offer, not one that makes sense anyway.  If you stick around here for any length of time, you'll see this particular point comes up regularly and gets ignored every time. 
Title: Re: Where is Sigma Octantis if the Earth is flat?
Post by: rabinoz on October 31, 2019, 11:15:37 PM
As far as I'm concerned this topic is dead.  I've been posting this on Nathan Oakley's discord every now and then and still no response.  No flattie wants to even attempt an explanation.

There is no explanation they can offer, not one that makes sense anyway.  If you stick around here for any length of time, you'll see this particular point comes up regularly and gets ignored every time.
If you'd like some RANDOM THOUGHTS on Sigma Octantis have a look at this thread:
Flat Earth General / “Sigma Octantis” and the Infinite Plane? « Message by Plat Terra on August 31, 2019, 05:02:35 PM »
(https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=83018.msg2199513;topicseen#msg2199513)