The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: Cinnamon buns on August 07, 2018, 02:15:51 AM

Title: About the moon landing
Post by: Cinnamon buns on August 07, 2018, 02:15:51 AM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: ThatsInteresting on August 07, 2018, 02:20:50 AM
Do you have a better source than Wikipedia? Does that source describe, in better detail, how that 1962 experiment was done? Without that, I can't really that claim seriously considering the fact that Wikipedia can be changed by virtually anyone.
Yes, the first laser pulse reflected from the moon was in 1962, but if you look into it you will find a dramatic improvement in accuracy since the corner reflectors were installed.
Yes, the first laser pulse reflected from the moon was in 1962, but if you look into it, you will find a dramatic improvement in accuracy since the corner reflectors were installed.

You can read a bit about it in:
Reminescenses of Early Work at MIT and ESRIN 1963-1974 (http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2004ESASP.561....3F)
But these early experiments needed very high power and comparatively long pulse lengths (around 1 ms in the 1962 MIT case), so could not achieve very high accuracy. I could not find much of the accuracy of this one, bit a later one (still without corner reflectors) described in (http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/69D/jresv69Dn12p1681_A1b.pdf)
Quote from: A. Orszag, Ecole Poly technique, Paris
On page 1687: 3 .1. Accuracy of Distance Measurement
This accuracy is limited by several factors:
(a) The duration of the pulse emitted by the laser, that is, about 50 nsec. This time interval corresponds to an uncertainty of 15 m in the distance.

From: Moon Distance Measurement by Laser (http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/69D/jresv69Dn12p1681_A1b.pdf)

And have a look at:
Quote from: Cosmeo
May 9, 1962: Laser beam first used to measure distance to the moon (https://www.cosmeo.com/viewTodayInHistoryEvents.cfm?guidAssetId=5671a19e-6a63-4b6f-85b3-89ac05180173&eventid=1154)
In 1962, laser technology was a new and exciting science. Lasers produce a light that is intense, coherent, and monochromatic. The beam of light emitted by a laser is also extremely narrow. It would be impossible to bounce a flashlight beam off the moon, as the light disperses too much to travel any distance. But a laser beam is so narrow that it can make the roughly 239,000 mile journey to the moon and still be detected back on Earth. The first time this was done, MIT scientists using a ruby laser to bounce a light beam off the moon in a series of pulses, estimated that its area on the moon's surface was just four miles in diameter. Later they were able to reduce this to under 2 1/2 miles.
From Cosmeo View Today In History Events (https://www.cosmeo.com/viewTodayInHistoryEvents.cfm?guidAssetId=5671a19e-6a63-4b6f-85b3-89ac05180173&eventid=1154)

The later measurements with the corner reflectors have achieved millimeter accuracy, enough to determine that the Moon is spiraling away from Earth at a rate of 3.8 cm per year - a figure unexpectedly high.

This is the improvement in precision of measurement from the first retro-reflectors:
Quote from: Mark Crawford
Lunar laser ranging: 40 years of high-level science
In the early days one of the biggest challenges was discerning returning photons from "stray" photons. MLRS would fire 1014 or 1015 photons to the moon and only about 10 or so returned to the photodetector, so being able to verify them was absolutely essential. "We devised a four-filter system," says Peter Shelus, senior research scientist at UT-Austin's Center for Space Research and member of the MLRS team. "First, we opened the detector to the sky just before we thought the photons were due back - about 2.5 seconds later. Second, we used a pinhole aperture only a few arc seconds in diameter to look at a very small part of the surface of the moon. The third filter was spectral -- we fired red light from the ruby laser or green from neodymium and looked for those wavelengths coming back in. The fourth filter was mathematical to neutralize noise in the photodetector."
(http://spie.org//Images/Graphics/Newsroom/Imported-2009/LLR/Fig4-chart.jpg)
Figure 4.
Increasingly the trend at LLR stations has been toward narrower laser pulses and greater accuracy (Fig. 4). Today satellite laser ranging stations such as RGO (UK) and Graz (Austria) are favoring super-short pulse kiloHertz lasers. Apache Point Observatory Lunar Laser Ranging Operation (APOLLO), the most advanced LLR station in the world, uses a 3.5-meter telescope and 532 nm Nd:YAG laser (100 ps pulse duration, 115 mJ/pulse, 20 Hz). "We routinely achieve 1-mm precision with a 7-picosecond round-trip travel-time error," indicates Tom Murphy, director of APOLLO and associate professor of physics at University of California, San Diego. "Our APD array is a working prototype from MIT's Lincoln Labs in a 4x4 format with 30-µm diameters on 100-µm centers. Photon detection efficiency is about 50 percent."
From: Lunar laser ranging: 40 years of high-level science (http://spie.org/newsroom/12-09-laser-ranging)

The last reference is simply to stress the improvement in accuracy since the installation of corner reflectors.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Bullwinkle on August 07, 2018, 06:52:15 AM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?

How could I have a dollar bill if I didn't rob a bank?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: totallackey on August 07, 2018, 06:55:59 AM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Do you have independently verified evidence this has ever taken place?

No...
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: robintex on August 07, 2018, 09:58:28 AM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?


These experiments have usually been done by astronomical observatories with special equipment for sending and receiving the laser beams.The moon landings happened and the astronauts placed those reflectors there. The observatories latest laser  operations have measured the distance from the earth to the moon to the centimeter. (See graph in Reply #1)

Not sure about "anyone could do it "  due to the cost and complexity of the equipment ?

Just some more flat earth denial, delusion and NASA paranoia that they say the lunar landings never happened.😆
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: robintex on August 07, 2018, 10:09:40 AM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Do you have independently verified evidence this has ever taken place?

No...

Yes...
I have personal and indepently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made  antennas , transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definetly  not 3,000 miles.😆
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Curiouser and Curiouser on August 07, 2018, 11:34:22 AM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?

Essentially identical question asked a few weeks ago.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=76880.0 (https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=76880.0)
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 07, 2018, 02:56:25 PM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Do you have independently verified evidence this has ever taken place?

No...

Yes...
I have personal and indepently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made  antennas , transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definetly  not 3,000 miles.😆

Ah yes, you can visit an observatory that receives it's funding by the government where they have a computer that programs a "laser" to fire at the moon and conveniently, a "laser" is bounced back to you.

Here is a thought. The computer program which gives you the data is simply a script that runs and gives you information based on what the government wants you to believe. 'Oh look! This year our laser bounced back 0.00000... seconds longer so the moon moved an average 3cm further away. And yes, we really went to the moon because how else did we get this information if not from retro reflectors left behind!'

This retro reflector argument comes up all the time but any conspiracy theorist can easily dismiss it. Going to an observatory watching some suit push a button on a computer is hardly compelling evidence
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: JackBlack on August 07, 2018, 03:36:01 PM
any conspiracy theorist can easily dismiss it
Yes, as they dismiss everything that goes against them.
Even someone not affiliated with the government will be dismissed as a shill.
The only evidence they would accept is evidence they have obtained themselves, but of course if that evidence shows they are wrong they wont go and try to get it.

So how about instead of discussing delusional conspiracy nuts (they don't deserve the title of theorist) we instead focus on at least somewhat rational people.
These observatories are not affiliated with NASA.

I would say that makes them independent.

If you want another form of independent, not affiliated with the government at all then you go waste loads of money on making an observatory not funded by the government in any way and do the experiment yourself.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: rabinoz on August 07, 2018, 03:58:09 PM
Yes...
I have personal and independently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never-ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made antennas, transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definitely not 3,000 miles.😆

Ah yes, you can visit an observatory that receives it's funding by the government where they have a computer that programs a "laser" to fire at the moon and conveniently, a "laser" is bounced back to you.

Here is a thought. The computer program which gives you the data is simply a script that runs and gives you information based on what the government wants you to believe. 'Oh look! This year our laser bounced back 0.00000... seconds longer so the moon moved an average 3cm 4cm further away. And yes, we really went to the moon because how else did we get this information if not from retro reflectors left behind!'

This retro reflector argument comes up all the time but any conspiracy theorist can easily dismiss it. Going to an observatory watching some suit push a button on a computer is hardly compelling evidence
True, it is not strong evidence that anyone landed on the moon, but it excellent evidence that the moon is about 384,000 km away and not about 5000 km.

But I'm far more concerned with evidence that the moon is about 384,000 km away from earth than whether people landed on the moon or not.
This is "The Flat Earth Society" not the "The Lunar Landing Hoax Society".

Radio and radar reflections from the moon have given the same results since the 1940's, though with far less accuracy.
Quote
SP-4218 To See the Unseen
- Chapter One -
A Meteoric Start

 
[1] During the 1940s, investigators in the United States and Hungary bounced radar waves off the Moon for the first time, while others made the first systematic radar studies of meteors. These experiments constituted the initial exploration of the solar system with radar. In order to understand the beginnings of radar astronomy, we first must examine the origins of radar in radio, the decisive role of ionospheric research, and the rapid development of radar technology triggered by World War II.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Project Diana
[9] The Signal Corps tried several times, but without success. "The equipment was very haywire," recalled DeWitt. Finally, at moonrise, 11:48 A.M., on 10 January 1946, they aimed the antenna at the horizon and began transmitting. Ironically, DeWitt was not present: "I was over in Belmar having lunch and picking up some items like cigarettes at the drug store (stopped smoking 1952 thank God)." The first signals were detected at 11:58 A.M., and the experiment was concluded at 12:09 P.M., when the Moon moved out of the radar's range. The radio waves had taken about 2.5 seconds to travel from New Jersey to the Moon and back, a distance of over 800,000 km. The experiment was repeated daily over the next three days and on eight more days later that month.

]SP-4218 To See the Unseen (https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4218/ch1.htm)
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Stash on August 07, 2018, 04:01:59 PM
Here is a thought...

According to the FET I’ve read, the moon has a diameter of 32 miles and is located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth.

https://theflatearthsociety.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Moon&highlight=moon

Here is a thought. 3000 miles is less distance than a flight from, say, NYC to London. If the moon is even closer, maybe we did land on it. Granted slightly different direction, "up" instead of “over”, but so damn close.
Using FET, landing on the moon is far more plausible than the RE model of it being 239k miles away. Conspiracy being that NASA did go to the moon, placed reflectors, hit some golf balls and drove around in a buggy, but are hiding the fact that it’s so close to earth because of money, pride, luminati/masonic and/or whatever conspiratorial proclivity suits your whimsy.

Seems just as rational as your thought and I have a supporting citation to back my assumed logic in the full force and weight of the wiki.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Cartog on August 07, 2018, 04:27:10 PM
I have an independently verified source (a professor of astronomy with an observatory, at the time) who confirmed to me that labs and observatories in many countries had successfully bounced laser and maser signals off the retroflector -- some had been sending beams continuously since the touchdown and got a reflection the very minute that the astronauts set up the retroflector.

Additionally, other labs, those using ultra high frequency radio, were able to listen to the astronauts's radio messages -- this was at wavelengths that pass through the ionosphere, unlike shortwave wavelengths that bounce back from the ionosphere, so those signals must have originated in outer space and not on earth.

Whenever the astronauts went to the moon they very deliberately photographed themselves doing something that would have been impossible on earth, even with tricks, such as batting a golf ball a mile or taking enormous bouncing steps or floating loose water in mid--air.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: robintex on August 07, 2018, 09:17:05 PM
(1)I have an independently verified source (a professor of astronomy with an observatory, at the time) who confirmed to me that labs and observatories in many countries had successfully bounced laser and maser signals off the retroflector -- some had been sending beams continuously since the touchdown and got a reflection the very minute that the astronauts set up the retroflector.

(2)Additionally, other labs, those using ultra high frequency radio, were able to listen to the astronauts's radio messages -- this was at wavelengths that pass through the ionosphere, unlike shortwave wavelengths that bounce back from the ionosphere, so those signals must have originated in outer space and not on earth.

Whenever the astronauts went to the moon they very deliberately photographed themselves doing something that would have been impossible on earth, even with tricks, such as batting a golf ball a mile or taking enormous bouncing steps or floating loose water in mid--air.

(1) My source of information as previously stated was similar to yours.
And McDonald Observatory, located on Mount Locke,  near Fort Davis in far West Texas , is affiliated with The University Of Texas At Austin, in Central Texas.
 It has received a grant from NASA to train teachers in science, but is not controlled by NASA..... It is.Just controlled and funded by U.T. At Austin.
There are also  several branches of U.T. in Texas , such as U.T.A. ,  At  Arlington, between Dallas and Fort Worth, in North Central Texas.

(2) Not just labs, but anyone having a receiver for those frequencies could and did  listen to them.
Ham radio operators have also had " QSO's" (radio contacts) with the astronauts in space and the I.S.S.

Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: robintex on August 07, 2018, 09:28:32 PM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Do you have independently verified evidence this has ever taken place?

No...

Yes...
I have personal and indepently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made  antennas , transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definetly  not 3,000 miles.😆

Ah yes, you can visit an observatory that receives it's funding by the government where they have a computer that programs a "laser" to fire at the moon and conveniently, a "laser" is bounced back to you.

Here is a thought. The computer program which gives you the data is simply a script that runs and gives you information based on what the government wants you to believe. 'Oh look! This year our laser bounced back 0.00000... seconds longer so the moon moved an average 3cm further away. And yes, we really went to the moon because how else did we get this information if not from retro reflectors left behind!'

This retro reflector argument comes up all the time but any conspiracy theorist can easily dismiss it. Going to an observatory watching some suit push a button on a computer is hardly compelling evidence

How often have you visited an observatory ?
I think FE's are just about as paranoid about observatories as they are about NASA. LOL
How often have talked to any ham radio operator about °Moon Bounce" ?
Or would you just dismiss all these people mentioned above as being liars as far as the distance from the earth to the moon is concerned ?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Lamaface on August 08, 2018, 05:26:53 AM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Do you have independently verified evidence this has ever taken place?

No...

Yes...
I have personal and indepently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made  antennas , transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definetly  not 3,000 miles.😆

Ah yes, you can visit an observatory that receives it's funding by the government where they have a computer that programs a "laser" to fire at the moon and conveniently, a "laser" is bounced back to you.

Here is a thought. The computer program which gives you the data is simply a script that runs and gives you information based on what the government wants you to believe. 'Oh look! This year our laser bounced back 0.00000... seconds longer so the moon moved an average 3cm further away. And yes, we really went to the moon because how else did we get this information if not from retro reflectors left behind!'

This retro reflector argument comes up all the time but any conspiracy theorist can easily dismiss it. Going to an observatory watching some suit push a button on a computer is hardly compelling evidence

Here’s a thought: why would the Grand Conspiracy need the moon to be moving away from earth 4 cm per year?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: DavidOrJohn on August 08, 2018, 08:31:10 AM
Well as the most renowned RET poster on this site I must admit that this argument has never even come close to swaying my opinion.

If you wanna convince me, you need a much stronger argument.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 08, 2018, 07:21:50 PM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Do you have independently verified evidence this has ever taken place?

No...

Yes...
I have personal and indepently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made  antennas , transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definetly  not 3,000 miles.😆

Ah yes, you can visit an observatory that receives it's funding by the government where they have a computer that programs a "laser" to fire at the moon and conveniently, a "laser" is bounced back to you.

Here is a thought. The computer program which gives you the data is simply a script that runs and gives you information based on what the government wants you to believe. 'Oh look! This year our laser bounced back 0.00000... seconds longer so the moon moved an average 3cm further away. And yes, we really went to the moon because how else did we get this information if not from retro reflectors left behind!'

This retro reflector argument comes up all the time but any conspiracy theorist can easily dismiss it. Going to an observatory watching some suit push a button on a computer is hardly compelling evidence

How often have you visited an observatory ?
I think FE's are just about as paranoid about observatories as they are about NASA. LOL
How often have talked to any ham radio operator about °Moon Bounce" ?
Or would you just dismiss all these people mentioned above as being liars as far as the distance from the earth to the moon is concerned ?

I live less than 20km away from one. I have never been inside it
Never met a ham radio operator


Here’s a thought: why would the Grand Conspiracy need the moon to be moving away from earth 4 cm per year?

To make it look like the "laser" is measuring something
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: robintex on August 08, 2018, 09:02:38 PM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Do you have independently verified evidence this has ever taken place?

No...

Yes...
I have personal and indepently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made  antennas , transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definetly  not 3,000 miles.😆

Ah yes, you can visit an observatory that receives it's funding by the government where they have a computer that programs a "laser" to fire at the moon and conveniently, a "laser" is bounced back to you.

Here is a thought. The computer program which gives you the data is simply a script that runs and gives you information based on what the government wants you to believe. 'Oh look! This year our laser bounced back 0.00000... seconds longer so the moon moved an average 3cm further away. And yes, we really went to the moon because how else did we get this information if not from retro reflectors left behind!'

This retro reflector argument comes up all the time but any conspiracy theorist can easily dismiss it. Going to an observatory watching some suit push a button on a computer is hardly compelling evidence

How often have you visited an observatory ?
I think FE's are just about as paranoid about observatories as they are about NASA. LOL
How often have talked to any ham radio operator about °Moon Bounce" ?
Or would you just dismiss all these people mentioned above as being liars as far as the distance from the earth to the moon is concerned ?

I live less than 20km away from one. I have never been inside it
Never met a ham radio operator


Here’s a thought: why would the Grand Conspiracy need the moon to be moving away from earth 4 cm per year?

To make it look like the "laser" is measuring something

Just wondering if you would believe anyone except a flat earth believer ?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 08, 2018, 09:03:52 PM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Do you have independently verified evidence this has ever taken place?

No...

Yes...
I have personal and indepently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made  antennas , transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definetly  not 3,000 miles.😆

Ah yes, you can visit an observatory that receives it's funding by the government where they have a computer that programs a "laser" to fire at the moon and conveniently, a "laser" is bounced back to you.

Here is a thought. The computer program which gives you the data is simply a script that runs and gives you information based on what the government wants you to believe. 'Oh look! This year our laser bounced back 0.00000... seconds longer so the moon moved an average 3cm further away. And yes, we really went to the moon because how else did we get this information if not from retro reflectors left behind!'

This retro reflector argument comes up all the time but any conspiracy theorist can easily dismiss it. Going to an observatory watching some suit push a button on a computer is hardly compelling evidence

How often have you visited an observatory ?
I think FE's are just about as paranoid about observatories as they are about NASA. LOL
How often have talked to any ham radio operator about °Moon Bounce" ?
Or would you just dismiss all these people mentioned above as being liars as far as the distance from the earth to the moon is concerned ?

I live less than 20km away from one. I have never been inside it
Never met a ham radio operator


Here’s a thought: why would the Grand Conspiracy need the moon to be moving away from earth 4 cm per year?

To make it look like the "laser" is measuring something

Just wondering if you would believe anyone except a flat earth believer ?

I believe both sides believe what they are doing and saying. It doesn't make their words correct
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: JackBlack on August 09, 2018, 01:34:40 AM
To make it look like the "laser" is measuring something
It would be a lot easier to just say it is staying the same and then not need the lasers.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Lamaface on August 09, 2018, 02:31:24 AM
To make it look like the "laser" is measuring something
It would be a lot easier to just say it is staying the same and then not need the lasers.
Exactly my point. Thanks
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 09, 2018, 03:12:06 AM
To make it look like the "laser" is measuring something
It would be a lot easier to just say it is staying the same and then not need the lasers.
Exactly my point. Thanks

But they wrote themselves into a pickle when they ad hoc'ed their gravity nonsense
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: totallackey on August 09, 2018, 03:51:17 AM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Do you have independently verified evidence this has ever taken place?

No...

Yes...
I have personal and indepently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made  antennas , transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definetly  not 3,000 miles.😆
So a long bunch of gibberish written by you to admit you have no personal experience with lasers bouncing off the moon...
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: robintex on August 09, 2018, 09:35:40 AM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?
Do you have independently verified evidence this has ever taken place?
U
No...

Yes...
I have personal and indepently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made  antennas , transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definetly  not 3,000 miles.😆
So a long bunch of gibberish written by you to admit you have no personal experience with lasers bouncing off the moon...

If you refuse to accept reality, that's your problem . 😆
I don''t think you would take it as "a personal experience" from any ham radio operator or anyone at any observatory as far as the distance from the earth to the moon is concerned.
So continue to live in ignorance if that's your choice . 😆
You can get plenty of "personal experiences" from The American Radio League or McDonald Observatory. Talk to them.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: robintex on August 09, 2018, 10:10:41 AM
Yes...
I have personal and independently verified evidence from a  visit to and an exchange of e-mails from Mc Donald Observatory that the laser measurements have taken place and are continuing to take place...It seems to be a never-ending project in the search for more precise measurements of the distance involved from the earth to the moon.

And it's not 3,000 miles 😆.
Amateur Radio Operators admittedly used special home made antennas, transmitters and receivers in their "Mounce Bounce" operations using radio waves "bouncing" off the surface of the moon instead of laser beams and reflectors.
Their results were not as accurate as the laser beams. But.....Definitely not 3,000 miles.😆

Ah yes, you can visit an observatory that receives it's funding by the government where they have a computer that programs a "laser" to fire at the moon and conveniently, a "laser" is bounced back to you.

Here is a thought. The computer program which gives you the data is simply a script that runs and gives you information based on what the government wants you to believe. 'Oh look! This year our laser bounced back 0.00000... seconds longer so the moon moved an average 3cm 4cm further away. And yes, we really went to the moon because how else did we get this information if not from retro reflectors left behind!'

This retro reflector argument comes up all the time but any conspiracy theorist can easily dismiss it. Going to an observatory watching some suit push a button on a computer is hardly compelling evidence
True, it is not strong evidence that anyone landed on the moon, but it excellent evidence that the moon is about 384,000 km away and not about 5000 km.

But I'm far more concerned with evidence that the moon is about 384,000 km away from earth than whether people landed on the moon or not.
This is "The Flat Earth Society" not the "The Lunar Landing Hoax Society".

Radio and radar reflections from the moon have given the same results since the 1940's, though with far less accuracy.
Quote
SP-4218 To See the Unseen
- Chapter One -
A Meteoric Start

 
[1] During the 1940s, investigators in the United States and Hungary bounced radar waves off the Moon for the first time, while others made the first systematic radar studies of meteors. These experiments constituted the initial exploration of the solar system with radar. In order to understand the beginnings of radar astronomy, we first must examine the origins of radar in radio, the decisive role of ionospheric research, and the rapid development of radar technology triggered by World War II.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Project Diana
[9] The Signal Corps tried several times, but without success. "The equipment was very haywire," recalled DeWitt. Finally, at moonrise, 11:48 A.M., on 10 January 1946, they aimed the antenna at the horizon and began transmitting. Ironically, DeWitt was not present: "I was over in Belmar having lunch and picking up some items like cigarettes at the drug store (stopped smoking 1952 thank God)." The first signals were detected at 11:58 A.M., and the experiment was concluded at 12:09 P.M., when the Moon moved out of the radar's range. The radio waves had taken about 2.5 seconds to travel from New Jersey to the Moon and back, a distance of over 800,000 km. The experiment was repeated daily over the next three days and on eight more days later that month.

]SP-4218 To See the Unseen (https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4218/ch1.htm)

rabinoz, et al:

Why do we keep trying ?
You might as well be talking to an inmate at that State Hospital at Terrell, Texas ! 😆

But.......anyway.......
Just a few notes on the distance from the earth to the moon.
Known distances  (the moon varies in it orbit as to distance from the earth)
Apogee (nearest distance) 221,559 mile
Perigee (farthest distance) 252, 565 miles
Some of the ham radio "Moon Bounce" experiments took about 2.5 seconds from the time the transmit signal to the moon to the  time it was received on the earth. This give a "one way time" of about 1.25 seconds and a distance of about 232,500 miles, well within the known limits.
An estimated 1,000 ham radio operators , with equipment costs ranging from $200 to $2,000 , have participated in "Moon Bounce" with the same end result in the distance.
You can get a list of those and ask them.
Do you consider them as all of them being liars ?

Or FE's could get their own licenses, (it's not that difficult for any person of normal intelligence), band together and get their own equipment , and prove the distance from the earth to the moon is only 3,000 miles.
Either put up or shut up.
Since the licenses are issued by a government agency - the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) in the USA -would you consider the FCC to be a member of the Conspiracy ?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: BlackHolesMatter on August 09, 2018, 07:19:55 PM
(https://img.memecdn.com/moon-landing-is-a-hoax-striking-evidence_o_673123.jpg)
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: markjo on August 10, 2018, 09:52:55 AM
How come anyone with a high powered laser can bounce light off the retroreflectors that the astronauts left on the moon if the moon landing never happened?


These experiments have usually been done by astronomical observatories with special equipment for sending and receiving the laser beams.
It's also interesting to note that even when the observatories shoot their very powerful lasers at the moon, generally only a few photons per pulse ever make it back to the sensors.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: rabinoz on August 10, 2018, 06:50:39 PM
But they wrote themselves into a pickle when they ad hoc'ed their gravity nonsense
Please explain.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 12, 2018, 06:46:59 PM
But they wrote themselves into a pickle when they ad hoc'ed their gravity nonsense
Please explain.

No
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: rabinoz on August 12, 2018, 06:54:05 PM
But they wrote themselves into a pickle when they ad hoc'ed their gravity nonsense
Please explain.

No
So I guess that you can't.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 12, 2018, 07:07:47 PM
But they wrote themselves into a pickle when they ad hoc'ed their gravity nonsense
Please explain.

No
So I guess that you can't.

More a case of cant be arsed wasting my time explaining something you wont believe in any case, with a mix of watching you squirm, annoyed with non answers to reasonable questions
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: JackBlack on August 12, 2018, 07:56:05 PM
More a case of cant be arsed wasting my time explaining something you wont believe in any case, with a mix of watching you squirm, annoyed with non answers to reasonable questions
More a case of yet another baseless assertion from you, which you will now refuse to justify and have others rationally discard as pure nonsense.
We aren't the ones squirming.
But it is understandable for people to get annoyed at your non-answers to reasonable questions.
You should try answering for once.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: rabinoz on August 12, 2018, 08:18:01 PM
But they wrote themselves into a pickle when they ad hoc'ed their gravity nonsense
Please explain.

No
So I guess that you can't.

More a case of cant be arsed wasting my time explaining something you wont believe in any case, with a mix of watching you squirm, annoyed with non answers to reasonable questions
In other you were talking crap as usual and can't find a way to wriggle out of it, figures.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 12, 2018, 08:31:24 PM
But they wrote themselves into a pickle when they ad hoc'ed their gravity nonsense
Please explain.

No
So I guess that you can't.

More a case of cant be arsed wasting my time explaining something you wont believe in any case, with a mix of watching you squirm, annoyed with non answers to reasonable questions
In other you were talking crap as usual and can't find a way to wriggle out of it, figures.

If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: rabinoz on August 12, 2018, 08:34:06 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 12, 2018, 08:53:01 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: MouseWalker on August 12, 2018, 09:57:35 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 12, 2018, 10:42:45 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: rabinoz on August 12, 2018, 11:00:47 PM
^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Do you ever do anything other than ridicule and make personal attacks on others?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 13, 2018, 12:08:23 AM
^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Do you ever do anything other than ridicule and make personal attacks on others?

Where is the ridicule? Where is the 'personal attack'?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: rabinoz on August 13, 2018, 01:26:10 AM
^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Do you ever do anything other than ridicule and make personal attacks on others?

Where is the ridicule? Where is the 'personal attack'?
This looks like ridicule to me" '^^ LOL @ this guy  8)'. What would you call it, praise?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: MouseWalker on August 13, 2018, 04:23:29 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Just what I expect, attack the messenger, not the message.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 13, 2018, 04:44:02 PM
^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Do you ever do anything other than ridicule and make personal attacks on others?

Where is the ridicule? Where is the 'personal attack'?
This looks like ridicule to me" '^^ LOL @ this guy  8)'. What would you call it, praise?

So I think a guy sounds funny? Is that ridicule? AND WHERE DID I MAKE A PERSONAL ATTACK AS YOU CLAIMED?

If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Just what I expect, attack the messenger, not the message.

I chuckle at your Plato's cave analogies. I'm just surprised you didn't mention Plato's name this time
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: rabinoz on August 13, 2018, 05:06:47 PM
^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Laughing AT someone is ridicule and shouting is rude.

Now, run off and post something useful as I try to do until you step in and disrupt things.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 13, 2018, 05:16:43 PM
^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Laughing AT someone is ridicule and shouting is rude.

Now, run off and post something useful as I try to do until you step in and disrupt things.

Lying about others is also rude. Where is the personal attack I made?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: sokarul on August 13, 2018, 05:24:37 PM
Da nile ain’t just a river in Africa.

Anyways the ham operator I met said he never preformed a moon bounce. I believe he said it was hard and required a big antenna. He has preformed an ISS “bounce”.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: rabinoz on August 13, 2018, 07:33:53 PM
Lying about others is also rude. Where is the personal attack I made?
You have attacked me and others numerous times.
        Here's a few, Why are so many of Shifter's posts personal attacks? (https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=77341.msg2089032#msg2089032)
Still, you're Shifter and know no better.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: MouseWalker on August 14, 2018, 09:54:46 AM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Your dismissal of the messenger, and not the message, is the complaint here.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 14, 2018, 02:33:34 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Your dismissal of the messenger, and not the message, is the complaint here.

Your dismissal of everyones reality is also a complaint. Who are you to judge whose reality is valid or not?
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: MouseWalker on August 14, 2018, 09:30:45 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Your dismissal of the messenger, and not the message, is the complaint here.

Your dismissal of everyones reality is also a complaint. Who are you to judge whose reality is valid or not?

well my reality doesn't require the rewriting of history, it allows for GPS to work, the ISS to orbit earth, it allows the sunrise in the east from  below the horizon, and the Setting of the Sun in the west below the horizon. And the exploration of the solar system, such as probes on Mars.
I try to argue against the message, not the messenger. My reference to Plato's cave, is that the messenger is lost, and only needs to be led out, of the cave.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 14, 2018, 09:34:22 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Your dismissal of the messenger, and not the message, is the complaint here.

Your dismissal of everyones reality is also a complaint. Who are you to judge whose reality is valid or not?

well my reality doesn't require the rewriting of history, it allows for GPS to work, the ISS to orbit earth, it allows the sunrise in the east from  below the horizon, and the Setting of the Sun in the west below the horizon. And the exploration of the solar system, such as probes on Mars.
I try to argue against the message, not the messenger. My reference to Plato's cave, is that the messenger is lost, and only needs to be led out, of the cave.

How do you know your not in a Platos cave on your own? Perhaps it is YOU that is lost and needs to be led out
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: MouseWalker on August 14, 2018, 09:41:07 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Your dismissal of the messenger, and not the message, is the complaint here.

Your dismissal of everyones reality is also a complaint. Who are you to judge whose reality is valid or not?

well my reality doesn't require the rewriting of history, it allows for GPS to work, the ISS to orbit earth, it allows the sunrise in the east from  below the horizon, and the Setting of the Sun in the west below the horizon. And the exploration of the solar system, such as probes on Mars.
I try to argue against the message, not the messenger. My reference to Plato's cave, is that the messenger is lost, and only needs to be led out, of the cave.

How do you know your not in a Platos cave on your own? Perhaps it is YOU that is lost and needs to be led out
then guide me out, give be some credible evidence, that would make me think otherwise.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 14, 2018, 10:15:07 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Your dismissal of the messenger, and not the message, is the complaint here.

Your dismissal of everyones reality is also a complaint. Who are you to judge whose reality is valid or not?

well my reality doesn't require the rewriting of history, it allows for GPS to work, the ISS to orbit earth, it allows the sunrise in the east from  below the horizon, and the Setting of the Sun in the west below the horizon. And the exploration of the solar system, such as probes on Mars.
I try to argue against the message, not the messenger. My reference to Plato's cave, is that the messenger is lost, and only needs to be led out, of the cave.

How do you know your not in a Platos cave on your own? Perhaps it is YOU that is lost and needs to be led out
then guide me out, give be some credible evidence, that would make me think otherwise.

What makes you think I am not simply a part of your illusion? I am unable to guide you out. If you want to get out of Platos cave, you must do it on your own.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: MouseWalker on August 15, 2018, 09:03:40 AM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Your dismissal of the messenger, and not the message, is the complaint here.

Your dismissal of everyones reality is also a complaint. Who are you to judge whose reality is valid or not?

well my reality doesn't require the rewriting of history, it allows for GPS to work, the ISS to orbit earth, it allows the sunrise in the east from  below the horizon, and the Setting of the Sun in the west below the horizon. And the exploration of the solar system, such as probes on Mars.
I try to argue against the message, not the messenger. My reference to Plato's cave, is that the messenger is lost, and only needs to be led out, of the cave.

How do you know your not in a Platos cave on your own? Perhaps it is YOU that is lost and needs to be led out
then guide me out, give be some credible evidence, that would make me think otherwise.

What makes you think I am not simply a part of your illusion? I am unable to guide you out. If you want to get out of Platos cave, you must do it on your own.
As my illusion, functions as reality. We will see man walk up on the moon once again, then we can continue our discussion.
Title: Re: About the moon landing
Post by: Shifter on August 15, 2018, 02:25:37 PM
If this line of thought will help you to sleep soundly at night, by all means believe this.
Why would anything you post affect my sleep?

Be seein' ya loser!

You're always up losing debates on this forum. Night or day. This forum is your life. Quite pathetic really. Now do you want to address the moon landing or not?
The moon landings are matter of history, and there is nothing that you can say, surmise, that it did not happen.
There was no way to fake it at that time with the technology available.
I did watch it on the news as it happened. But you will discount that too, as non-evidence, but that is your problem, not mine.

^^ LOL @ this guy  8)
Your dismissal of the messenger, and not the message, is the complaint here.

Your dismissal of everyones reality is also a complaint. Who are you to judge whose reality is valid or not?

well my reality doesn't require the rewriting of history, it allows for GPS to work, the ISS to orbit earth, it allows the sunrise in the east from  below the horizon, and the Setting of the Sun in the west below the horizon. And the exploration of the solar system, such as probes on Mars.
I try to argue against the message, not the messenger. My reference to Plato's cave, is that the messenger is lost, and only needs to be led out, of the cave.

How do you know your not in a Platos cave on your own? Perhaps it is YOU that is lost and needs to be led out
then guide me out, give be some credible evidence, that would make me think otherwise.

What makes you think I am not simply a part of your illusion? I am unable to guide you out. If you want to get out of Platos cave, you must do it on your own.
As my illusion, functions as reality. We will see man walk up on the moon once again, then we can continue our discussion.

You don't know what reality is. For all you know, YOU are the only occupant of a universe where everything is conjured up by YOUR mind. Including this post of what you believe to be mine.