The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: aisantaros on June 11, 2016, 05:54:19 AM

Title: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 11, 2016, 05:54:19 AM
This argument is based on everyday easily verifiable observations :

1 On date  21:06:2016 and time:  21:41 GMT Australia, South America and South Africa shares night time, you could easily check this even from your FE Day and night calculators or from public databases, or contacting people on those locations.

2 Southern cross is visible at the same time from those locations, this could be checked very easily also from star charts or from testimonies from people.

The argument as follows:

3 guys looking at south at Rio de Janeiro, Cape Town and Augusta Australia at the same time at 21:06:2016 21:41 GMT And they all can see the southern Cross constellation , but they all facing the rim of FE in different directions. How is This possible on Fe ?

here is the diagram, as you can see they dont just see the same constellation but the orientation of the cross is changing by location as expected on a globe geometry

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13332942_1194986063847836_4482184175555132480_n.jpg?oh=afe69e4b397e55383baedaafec7214b0&oe=5803E7C5)
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Kami on June 11, 2016, 07:13:47 AM
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 11, 2016, 07:35:19 AM
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

haha, very good, did you checked the sun rising in the morning ? :D There is an agreement in FE that the RE predictions and data are based on empiric evidence and they are sorta works.

As I stated all the necessary data are obtainable from public or FE databases. My sources anyway: stellarium and http://www.timeanddate.com/
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Pezevenk on June 11, 2016, 08:07:02 AM
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

That's not a smart thing to ask. The southern cross is a well-known constellation that is seen from all over the southern hemisphere. You don't have to perform an "experiment" to determine that. You can ask anyone who lives in the southern hemisphere, and if for some reason it wasn't visible, many of the 800 million people living there and the thousands of sailors who have used it for navigation purposes would have pointed it out.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: disputeone on June 11, 2016, 06:12:21 PM
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

I'm happy to verify the southern cross in Australia for said experiment, Augusta is a nice ride only two hours away for me.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Blue_Moon on June 11, 2016, 07:58:57 PM
I thought satellites were the strongest argument, but okay. 
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Kami on June 12, 2016, 03:17:35 AM
I thought satellites were the strongest argument, but okay.
I might want to disagree with you there.. to prove that satellites really exist you have to put in a little effort (well, look on the internet), while sunsets and the southern cross are visible everytime.
Those are both pretty strong arguments, though.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: rabinoz on June 12, 2016, 03:31:44 AM
I thought satellites were the strongest argument, but okay.
I might want to disagree with you there.. to prove that satellites really exist you have to put in a little effort (well, look on the internet), while sunsets and the southern cross are visible everytime.
Those are both pretty strong arguments, though.
Yes, I go for the simple things that anyone can see.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Dinosaur Neil on June 12, 2016, 05:29:36 AM
I notice a distinct absence of FE'er comment in this thread. John Davis - no incomprehensible non-euclidean maths to present in order to "prove" that this is consistent with FET? Jora - no smarmy comments about photoshopping stars or weak attempts to pick someone up on their exact wording? Papa Legba - no inclination to use this thread as a toilet yet?
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Kami on June 12, 2016, 08:27:51 AM
I think legba is no FE'er, if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 12, 2016, 09:39:50 AM
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

I'm happy to verify the southern cross in Australia for said experiment, Augusta is a nice ride only two hours away for me.

Albany is also a good spot at that given time, if you could snap a time stamped pic of the cross that would be a good addition.

I notice a distinct absence of FE'er comment in this thread. John Davis - no incomprehensible non-euclidean maths to present in order to "prove" that this is consistent with FET? Jora - no smarmy comments about photoshopping stars or weak attempts to pick someone up on their exact wording? Papa Legba - no inclination to use this thread as a toilet yet?

Anyway, This Fe crap started to get out of control especially in Facebook an yt, maybe it's time to construct some easily comprehensible diagrams or memes to spread, with the sun and the Crux/ polaris navigation,  :D
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Blue_Moon on June 12, 2016, 06:33:46 PM
I thought satellites were the strongest argument, but okay.
I might want to disagree with you there.. to prove that satellites really exist you have to put in a little effort (well, look on the internet), while sunsets and the southern cross are visible everytime.
Those are both pretty strong arguments, though.

But I can't see the southern cross from the northern hemisphere.  Sure, you may have to check online for the numbers pertaining to individual satellites, but TFES will never be able to come up with a better explanation. 
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Pezevenk on June 13, 2016, 03:00:15 AM
I notice a distinct absence of FE'er comment in this thread. John Davis - no incomprehensible non-euclidean maths to present in order to "prove" that this is consistent with FET? Jora - no smarmy comments about photoshopping stars or weak attempts to pick someone up on their exact wording? Papa Legba - no inclination to use this thread as a toilet yet?

Most flat earthers quit whenever the southern circumpolar stars are mentioned. They have no way to explain them. When they reply, they either ask if you've seen them yourself (and if you say you have they tell you you're using anecdotal evidence to prove your point and don't believe you, so it's a trap), or they come up with magical incomprehensible theories like DE or non-euclidean earth that don't even actually attempt to explain anything, because they aren't properly formulated, but they claim they do.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Mister B on June 13, 2016, 05:08:40 AM
Flags depicting the Southern Cross (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_depicting_the_Southern_Cross)
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 13, 2016, 08:08:38 AM
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Space Cowgirl on June 13, 2016, 08:14:30 AM
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 13, 2016, 08:23:26 AM
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

just pointing out, that this topic is come up over and over, also on yt, and those guys just ranting and babbling about conspiracies and hunt for "errors" in nasa videos for hours instead of addressing the main conundrums of FE, and we have some yt-er here. Also the yt is the pinnacle of Fe research as i noticed.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 13, 2016, 08:27:51 AM
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

Oh and since you just wandered here, could you share your opinion about the topic, I dont want to force an explanation out, just an opinion, if not about the physical nature of the crux just tell us about the reception of this topic in the FE community or something about the general view on it. Thank you!
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Space Cowgirl on June 13, 2016, 09:37:23 AM
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

Oh and since you just wandered here, could you share your opinion about the topic, I dont want to force an explanation out, just an opinion, if not about the physical nature of the crux just tell us about the reception of this topic in the FE community or something about the general view on it. Thank you!

Didn't everyone just wander here?

This topic has been discussed on this forum lots of times. You could search for "Southern Cross", but I think this is too much for most roundies.

I have seen some FE talk about celestial gears regarding the constellations. This is, I think, misunderstood by people who are imagining clockworks in the sky or something. It's more to describe how the stars move. The Southern stars are near the rim, the countries nearer the rim see those stars. The stars are moving sort of in a circle over the flat earth, the way the sun does.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 13, 2016, 10:12:11 AM
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

Oh and since you just wandered here, could you share your opinion about the topic, I dont want to force an explanation out, just an opinion, if not about the physical nature of the crux just tell us about the reception of this topic in the FE community or something about the general view on it. Thank you!

Didn't everyone just wander here?

This topic has been discussed on this forum lots of times. You could search for "Southern Cross", but I think this is too much for most roundies.

I have seen some FE talk about celestial gears regarding the constellations. This is, I think, misunderstood by people who are imagining clockworks in the sky or something. It's more to describe how the stars move. The Southern stars are near the rim, the countries nearer the rim see those stars. The stars are moving sort of in a circle over the flat earth, the way the sun does.

i'm actually read all that up here, those are not as long conversations as you think.

the problem with celestial gears: 1 they are not explain the situation with the crux above 2 they try to explain the celestial poles, but there is no transition zones on the sky:

The stars are changes continuously as you travel south their measured altitude changes are totally correspond with your movement dictated by sphere geometry.

This phenomena is in practical use as celestial navigation they use for this purpose a celestial globes, where your coordinates at given time totally corresponds with the visible constellations  and their coordinates on a celestial globe.

So the earth and the sky is connected in spherical geometry and it was proved by practice.

And the celestial south pole is must be above one point on earth as the north, It is verifiable by traveling very close or to the south pole as a tourist.

Oh, and all the above observations are  could be very easily explainable by the round earth model, it is just simple geometry, nothing fancy there really, just a spinning ball and a sky modell.... no need of strange bendy light, celestial gears, ether, whirlpools, mirrors and smoke.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Balloflight on June 13, 2016, 04:52:36 PM
I'm going to try to be unbiased because I'm new to all of the flat earth theories but have not yet been convinced.  But the only thing that diagram proves is the location of the southern cross.

Look at your ceiling fan, or anything on your ceiling from a wall.  Now walk to the other side of the room and the image you saw is upside down.  Actually if they can all see it at the same time whatsoever that just makes the earth seem flatter to me.  Please, let me know if and how Im wrong.  I don't mean that sarcastically, I'm trying to learn some shit.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Balloflight on June 13, 2016, 05:01:29 PM
Also why does the constellation look so much smaller from Rio than from Cape Town?  If the stars are millions of light years away wouldn't only less than 25% of the earths surface have very little affect on the view? Or could that just mean the southern cross is in between Augusta and Cape Town, making Rio the farthest.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: sokarul on June 13, 2016, 05:10:55 PM
I'm going to try to be unbiased because I'm new to all of the flat earth theories but have not yet been convinced.  But the only thing that diagram proves is the location of the southern cross.

Look at your ceiling fan, or anything on your ceiling from a wall.  Now walk to the other side of the room and the image you saw is upside down.  Actually if they can all see it at the same time whatsoever that just makes the earth seem flatter to me.  Please, let me know if and how Im wrong.  I don't mean that sarcastically, I'm trying to learn some shit.
You are confused. The three people at the three locations can't all look south and see the same thing.

Try this. Have 4 people stand with their faces all touching a different wall. How many of them see the fan?
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Space Cowgirl on June 13, 2016, 05:35:42 PM
Wouldn't all four people just see the wall their faces are touching?
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Balloflight on June 13, 2016, 06:33:33 PM
Yeah I accidently skimmed over the facing south part.  I only ended up here because of a UFO sighting I experienced which has changed the way I see everything as far as perceived truths and government corruption, but no I don't believe the illuminati are reptiles.  What can I say? I got sucked into the rabbit hole, and its very sexy.   But it has caused enough interest in me to follow the discussion and read every argument on both sides.  There are still some unanswered questions for me.  Like was Nikola Tesla really trying to prove Einstein wrong about gravity?  Someone like me would be more likely to side with the guy who created wireless electricity than the guy who created the atom bomb.  Just like to play devils advocate.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Blue_Moon on June 13, 2016, 07:53:39 PM
Yeah I accidently skimmed over the facing south part.  I only ended up here because of a UFO sighting I experienced which has changed the way I see everything as far as perceived truths and government corruption, but no I don't believe the illuminati are reptiles.  What can I say? I got sucked into the rabbit hole, and its very sexy.   But it has caused enough interest in me to follow the discussion and read every argument on both sides.  There are still some unanswered questions for me.  Like was Nikola Tesla really trying to prove Einstein wrong about gravity?  Someone like me would be more likely to side with the guy who created wireless electricity than the guy who created the atom bomb.  Just like to play devils advocate.

Describe the UFO you claim to have seen. 
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: rabinoz on June 13, 2016, 08:41:33 PM
Also why does the constellation look so much smaller from Rio than from Cape Town?  If the stars are millions of light years away wouldn't only less than 25% of the earths surface have very little affect on the view? Or could that just mean the southern cross is in between Augusta and Cape Town, making Rio the farthest.
They only look a different size is only in that image, not in real life.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Balloflight on June 13, 2016, 08:55:09 PM
See thats why I have some sense of sympathy for the flat earth people, because I come here trying to get involved in a discussion and when you say UFO people think you're lying or delusional.  I'm not going to describe it to you and I know a handful of others that have had similar experiences, some in groups.  So if the flat earth is a lie so are UFOs?  So is everything you haven't pissed on physically?  Doesn't the earth being round in a giant universe increase the supposed likelihood of UFOs?  You know most governments actually release their UFO information publically unlike America.  So governments lie about that but not about Antarctica?  Before I got stuck looking at flat earth shit for giggles I just got done reading universe from nothing, I skimmed over two words and people can't handle it..  I'm not here because I'm a barbarian I just enjoy discussions.  If you guys were as brilliant as you claim to be you wouldn't be hovering over a message board.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: GlaringEye on June 13, 2016, 11:00:55 PM
All that only because someone told you to tell your story?
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Kami on June 14, 2016, 02:45:31 AM
If you want to believe in conspiracy theories, take others. UFO sightings are fine, they can not be debunked that easily. I do not believe that we have been visited by aliens, but hey, it is far from impossible.

But once you look at star movements in the southern hemisphere (or even sunsets, not to mention satellites), it is evident that a flat earth is impossible, and no amount of alleged conspiracy can account for that.

John Davis' approach to flat earth is another thing, but it seems as if he accepted round earth and just tries to embed it into a higher dimension of space. I do not know if he accepts standard math (meaning the one derived from the ZFC axioms), but if he does, he might face some difficulties. But we will only be able to talk about that once he says something definite about his theory.

The standard "flat flying disc" model can not account for everyday observations, though.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: disputeone on June 14, 2016, 03:00:31 AM
was Nikola Tesla really trying to prove Einstein wrong about gravity?

Pretty much every physicist at the time General Relativity was first proposed was trying to "prove Einstein wong about gravity".

Plenty of very qualified people have tried to disprove GR the whole way.

Surprisingly enough it's still the accepted model because no other theory better fits our observation of the universe.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Jadyyn on June 14, 2016, 09:06:18 AM
I'm going to try to be unbiased because I'm new to all of the flat earth theories but have not yet been convinced.  But the only thing that diagram proves is the location of the southern cross.

Look at your ceiling fan, or anything on your ceiling from a wall.  Now walk to the other side of the room and the image you saw is upside down.  Actually if they can all see it at the same time whatsoever that just makes the earth seem flatter to me.  Please, let me know if and how Im wrong.  I don't mean that sarcastically, I'm trying to learn some shit.
Simply put, the FE sky/heavens are all wrong especially south of the equator.

First, you need to understand geometry and rotating objects as discussed here:
(https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66457.0)
(http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0007/startrails_aat1.jpg)

So, the S. Celestial Pole (SCP - center of southern star trails in the image above) is a single point that must be above a single point on Earth. There is no single point on a single sided flat disk/plane that can do this. The single point must be under the N.Pole on the other side of the disk/plane and can not be seen above the disk/plane. There is your first clue.

Next, stars in the sky have celestial coordinates (declination and ascension) that correspond to the Earth coordinates - specifically declination = latitude EXACTLY. This means that if a star is at 40 N declination, it "draws" the 40 N latitude on Earth. This supports the fact that the SCP, being 90 S declination, is a single point above a single point on Earth (the S.Pole).

Next, when you face the SCP you are facing due south, just like facing the S. Pole. If you draw a horizontal line through the SCP in the image above, the stars BELOW the line are on the OPPOSITE side of the Earth (per declination/latitude) 10,000+ mi BEHIND you. How can you see them looking due south at the edge in front of you?

The Southern Cross is just another example you can plug into everything above.

There are also problems with the Sun and Moon, but that is another topic.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Pezevenk on June 14, 2016, 09:34:02 AM
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

Actually, Jeranism once confronted me on a similar (or even the same, I don't remember) subject in THIS site, and then ran away. So aisantaros' expectation isn't that absurd.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Space Cowgirl on June 14, 2016, 03:24:47 PM
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

Actually, Jeranism once confronted me on a similar (or even the same, I don't remember) subject in THIS site, and then ran away. So aisantaros' expectation isn't that absurd.

Well, if you want to talk to youtubers go to youtube, imo. Y'all are all obsessed with people "running away" people post when they have the time, unless you bore the shit out of them, then I suppose they do run away.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 03:39:23 PM
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.
If you sum up the evidences in this thread, you could se that the earth is look, smell and feel like a ball, didn't this ring a bell ? And the absence of FE-ers here ?
Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

Actually, Jeranism once confronted me on a similar (or even the same, I don't remember) subject in THIS site, and then ran away. So aisantaros' expectation isn't that absurd.

Well, if you want to talk to youtubers go to youtube, imo. Y'all are all obsessed with people "running away" people post when they have the time, unless you bore the shit out of them, then I suppose they do run away.

If you sum up the evidences in this thread, you could se that the earth is look, smell and feel like a ball, didn't this ring a bell ? And the absence of FE-ers here ?

So The Earth is Round and they just dont like the evidence, its simple.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: GlaringEye on June 14, 2016, 03:56:00 PM
What do balls smell like?


...Now I don't wanna know the answer...
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: daftpunk on June 14, 2016, 04:02:12 PM
This thread is full of logical fallacies. I think we need to address these before we debate it properly.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Space Cowgirl on June 14, 2016, 04:27:20 PM
What do balls smell like?


...Now I don't wanna know the answer...

I'm sure he could tell you all about it  :-X
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 05:24:58 PM
This thread is full of logical fallacies. I think we need to address these before we debate it properly.
  • It relies on anecdotal evidence
  • It appeals to personal incredulity
  • It uses the 'Texas Sharpshooter' fallacy: starting with the conclusion and then trying to find evidence to fit
  • It shifts the burden of proof onto the wrong party
  • It uses the false cause fallacy
  • etc

We are dealing with here hard geometrical connections between the stars apparent position and motion in the sky and the earth shape. And yeah if you live in a box and didnt even look out, its anecdotal evidence, others called it common knowledge :D

Oh and if is a fallacy here sure you could debunk this thread very easily, My bet you shouting fallacy again then you flee, without any real argument, am I right ?
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 14, 2016, 05:45:54 PM
This thread is full of logical fallacies. I think we need to address these before we debate it properly.
  • It relies on anecdotal evidence
  • It appeals to personal incredulity
  • It uses the 'Texas Sharpshooter' fallacy: starting with the conclusion and then trying to find evidence to fit
  • It shifts the burden of proof onto the wrong party
  • It uses the false cause fallacy
  • etc

Anyway I'm impressed with your looking up logical fallacies skills even if they are the biggest logical fallacies here :D

And how do you want to debate this properly ? Crying fake for everything and nitpicking on my exact wording ?

This thread is only debatable if you have deep knowledge in n-dimensional geometry and higher math with modified extreme solutions of relativistic space time distortion.

Or you have to accept the simplest solution : The earth is probably round

Sorry
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Pezevenk on June 15, 2016, 02:47:31 AM
The total absence of the FE crowd are somewhat telling, where are the youtube top minds those boastful geniuses who are claiming they debunked this long time ago and advice you to come to the conclusion yourself ? :D

A copy past would do it, thanks, or a less than 4 hour yt video.

Are you expecting someone from youtube to post in this thread?

Actually, Jeranism once confronted me on a similar (or even the same, I don't remember) subject in THIS site, and then ran away. So aisantaros' expectation isn't that absurd.

Well, if you want to talk to youtubers go to youtube, imo. Y'all are all obsessed with people "running away" people post when they have the time, unless you bore the shit out of them, then I suppose they do run away.

...or they just run away, when they can't defend their position. But I guess flat earthers are honest, genius individuals who would never do that.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Jadyyn on June 15, 2016, 08:36:06 AM
This thread is full of logical fallacies. I think we need to address these before we debate it properly.
  • It relies on anecdotal evidence
  • It appeals to personal incredulity
  • It uses the 'Texas Sharpshooter' fallacy: starting with the conclusion and then trying to find evidence to fit
  • It shifts the burden of proof onto the wrong party
  • It uses the false cause fallacy
  • etc
Please be more specific:
(https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=67031.msg1790296#msg1790296)
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on June 18, 2016, 06:10:27 AM
So it is settled , the earth is most possibly a sphere, Thanks for the participation :D
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: yobbo on June 19, 2016, 04:20:34 AM
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

Ummm what do you mean this is not the FE map? This is the FE map that they keep shoving down our throats.

And I agree with the OP. How can 3 people with their backs to each other, all see the same thing?
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: rabinoz on June 19, 2016, 04:53:06 AM
Playing the devil's advocate here:
Have you performed said experiment yourself? What are your sources that the southern cross is actually visible from these three locations?
Also, this is not the FE map, as there is no FE map and therefore no contradictions of the FE map can be made.

Ummm what do you mean this is not the FE map? This is the FE map that they keep shoving down our throats.

And I agree with the OP. How can 3 people with their backs to each other, all see the same thing?

Sure "This is the FE map that they keep shoving down our throats.", until we come up with some impossibilities with that map, such as sunrise and sunset directions, then suddenly it's "but that isn't the official map, we don't have an official map!"

Have you tried searching for "Map" in the Wiki? You get:
Quote
Search 
Found "Map" in 0 "pages"
No pages matched the search criteria
so try "Ice Wall" (that used to get the maps. Now, nothing, no map!

So it is now the "Mapless Earth Society"!
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Jadyyn on June 19, 2016, 08:03:32 AM
Simply put, there is no FE map because a FE is a FANTASY.

The only thing FEers know - sort of - is the location of the N.Pole (in the middle). This is based on a conspiracy at the S.Pole/Antarctica. No conspiracy - N.Pole in the middle, not necessary. If the S.Pole is in the middle, the FE concept goes to hell really fast:
(http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=65369.0)

FEers don't know where the equator is either. Is it half-way to the edge? Are latitude circles equidistant? What makes the equator special (e.g. the star trails in the sky suddenly start shrinking south of it back to a single point when the "S.Pole" is supposedly a circle 50,000+ mi in circumference - really it should be the Celestial Equator - https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=66457.0)?

FEers don't know where or even IF an edge exists (disk vs plane model).

In short, they don't know where they or anything is on their model. As a result, they can't measure distances or tell you what a person would see. So the typical debate tactic is not to prove FE (it is a FANTASY) but to disprove RE (reality (the real world) by rejecting images, math, science and history).

We use the azimuthal equidistant projection (U.N. map) as a reference. But when fallacies are demonstrated, they cry that it is NOT the FE map, just a wrong RE projection. Considering the FE has been around for THOUSANDS of years, longer than the RE globe with its projections and known distortions, this is very surprising. Not being able to map a 2D Earth to a 2D piece of paper for THOUSANDS of years is very telling.

The only place a FE exists is in the minds of the FEers as a FANTASY or here as a debate position whether you believe it or not.

BTW, the strongest arguments against FE are based on amateur astronomy (visual/photographic) in general. Pretty much just pick one.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: sokarul on July 20, 2016, 10:29:12 AM
This argument is based on everyday easily verifiable observations :

1 On date  21:06:2016 and time:  21:41 GMT Australia, South America and South Africa shares night time, you could easily check this even from your FE Day and night calculators or from public databases, or contacting people on those locations.

2 Southern cross is visible at the same time from those locations, this could be checked very easily also from star charts or from testimonies from people.

The argument as follows:

3 guys looking at south at Rio de Janeiro, Cape Town and Augusta Australia at the same time at 21:06:2016 21:41 GMT And they all can see the southern Cross constellation , but they all facing the rim of FE in different directions. How is This possible on Fe ?

here is the diagram, as you can see they dont just see the same constellation but the orientation of the cross is changing by location as expected on a globe geometry

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13332942_1194986063847836_4482184175555132480_n.jpg?oh=afe69e4b397e55383baedaafec7214b0&oe=5803E7C5)
Bump.

Ski is posting again so maybe he will enlighten us. I would love to know the answer.  John and sand already ran away.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: johnnyorbital on July 21, 2016, 03:41:51 AM
I thought satellites were the strongest argument, but okay.
I might want to disagree with you there.. to prove that satellites really exist you have to put in a little effort (well, look on the internet), while sunsets and the southern cross are visible everytime.
Those are both pretty strong arguments, though.
Yes, I go for the simple things that anyone can see.

I'd say the lunar eclipse being circular every time is the strongest argument

Considering the FE has been around for THOUSANDS of years, longer than the RE globe with its projections and known distortions, this is very surprising. Not being able to map a 2D Earth to a 2D piece of paper for THOUSANDS of years is very telling.


excellent point
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on July 21, 2016, 04:56:26 AM
I thought satellites were the strongest argument, but okay.
I might want to disagree with you there.. to prove that satellites really exist you have to put in a little effort (well, look on the internet), while sunsets and the southern cross are visible everytime.
Those are both pretty strong arguments, though.
Yes, I go for the simple things that anyone can see.

I'd say the lunar eclipse being circular every time is the strongest argument

Considering the FE has been around for THOUSANDS of years, longer than the RE globe with its projections and known distortions, this is very surprising. Not being able to map a 2D Earth to a 2D piece of paper for THOUSANDS of years is very telling.


excellent point


You are right, but we could say things like that the work of geodetic surveyors, spectroscopy, and radio astronomy are the strongest points, along with lunar eclipse, but they can abuse and bullshit the fuck out of those, as they please, Seeing the stars  as they are is a completely different matter, they cant even start to debate it as you can see.

Funny fact I get banned from EVERY Flat earth group on facebook, for this challenge, even from the dedicated debate ones, the reason is : spreading rumors, disinfo and trolling :D Crazy right ?
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on July 21, 2016, 10:28:33 AM
This argument is based on everyday easily verifiable observations :

1 On date  21:06:2016 and time:  21:41 GMT Australia, South America and South Africa shares night time, you could easily check this even from your FE Day and night calculators or from public databases, or contacting people on those locations.

2 Southern cross is visible at the same time from those locations, this could be checked very easily also from star charts or from testimonies from people.

The argument as follows:

3 guys looking at south at Rio de Janeiro, Cape Town and Augusta Australia at the same time at 21:06:2016 21:41 GMT And they all can see the southern Cross constellation , but they all facing the rim of FE in different directions. How is This possible on Fe ?

here is the diagram, as you can see they dont just see the same constellation but the orientation of the cross is changing by location as expected on a globe geometry

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13332942_1194986063847836_4482184175555132480_n.jpg?oh=afe69e4b397e55383baedaafec7214b0&oe=5803E7C5)
Bump.

Ski is posting again so maybe he will enlighten us. I would love to know the answer.  John and sand already ran away.

To be honest John really didn't ran away, he gave  us a pretty satisfying answer such as the world is a sphere or more precisely a non euclidean infinite area with higher dimension geometry and monstrous relativistic effects and it could be modeled accurately as a sphere. Thats a very good progress from a FLat earther :D
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: johnnyorbital on July 21, 2016, 12:01:13 PM

Thats a very good progress VIVID IMAGINATION from a FLat earther
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: seripenunjang on July 21, 2016, 11:10:37 PM
this is the best argument, even you can do it in your home.
i'm from indonesia, and most of us are below the equator line, so this experiment will work 100%

 i need to convince my friend to do this experiment
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Brouwer on July 21, 2016, 11:16:57 PM
FE answer:

Celestial gears had been suggested to explain the view from three different points as marked on the map.

GE reply:

How many gears does it take to explain the same view (up to rotation) from ANY point on the southern hemisphere? Lets say Captown, Madagascar, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Australia. On of those places would definitely see more than one of those supposed gears.

Dumb imagination is dumb.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: sokarul on July 22, 2016, 01:36:27 PM
This argument is based on everyday easily verifiable observations :

1 On date  21:06:2016 and time:  21:41 GMT Australia, South America and South Africa shares night time, you could easily check this even from your FE Day and night calculators or from public databases, or contacting people on those locations.

2 Southern cross is visible at the same time from those locations, this could be checked very easily also from star charts or from testimonies from people.

The argument as follows:

3 guys looking at south at Rio de Janeiro, Cape Town and Augusta Australia at the same time at 21:06:2016 21:41 GMT And they all can see the southern Cross constellation , but they all facing the rim of FE in different directions. How is This possible on Fe ?

here is the diagram, as you can see they dont just see the same constellation but the orientation of the cross is changing by location as expected on a globe geometry

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13332942_1194986063847836_4482184175555132480_n.jpg?oh=afe69e4b397e55383baedaafec7214b0&oe=5803E7C5)
Bump.

Ski is posting again so maybe he will enlighten us. I would love to know the answer.  John and sand already ran away.

To be honest John really didn't ran away, he gave  us a pretty satisfying answer such as the world is a sphere or more precisely a non euclidean infinite area with higher dimension geometry and monstrous relativistic effects and it could be modeled accurately as a sphere. Thats a very good progress from a FLat earther :D
Not really. Whatever shape the earth is, it can be modeled in an x,y,z coordinate system. To say otherwise is ridiculous. 
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: aisantaros on August 03, 2016, 06:06:10 AM
Some news, I get an "answer " and find this spreading in truther and FE sites on facebook :

(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13873191_10154387513163615_3870317931151626848_n.jpg?oh=9fc74c2adcc1b5b4ad41f797a755b3a6&oe=5812A23F)

And even started to receive personal threats to pay, like braking my leg if not :D LOL

Is this how the whole FE operates ? :D
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: sokarul on August 03, 2016, 06:38:42 AM
It's not supriding people will become hostile when their "theory" is so easily destroyed by such a simple concept.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: TheRealBillNye on August 03, 2016, 11:27:32 AM
Some news, I get an "answer " and find this spreading in truther and FE sites on facebook :

(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13873191_10154387513163615_3870317931151626848_n.jpg?oh=9fc74c2adcc1b5b4ad41f797a755b3a6&oe=5812A23F)

And even started to receive personal threats to pay, like braking my leg if not :D LOL

Is this how the whole FE operates ? :D
Lol, those lines don't even point south. The Rio line points east while the aussies point west. In the FE model, South is whatever direction will get you to Antarctica the most quickly.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Woody on August 03, 2016, 12:16:48 PM
Some news, I get an "answer " and find this spreading in truther and FE sites on facebook :

(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13873191_10154387513163615_3870317931151626848_n.jpg?oh=9fc74c2adcc1b5b4ad41f797a755b3a6&oe=5812A23F)

And even started to receive personal threats to pay, like braking my leg if not :D LOL

Is this how the whole FE operates ? :D
Lol, those lines don't even point south. The Rio line points east while the aussies point west. In the FE model, South is whatever direction will get you to Antarctica the most quickly.

It looks like they are pointing North to me.  Since in the pic it looks to me the Southern Cross is above the North Pole.
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: TheRealBillNye on August 03, 2016, 03:22:29 PM
Some news, I get an "answer " and find this spreading in truther and FE sites on facebook :

(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13873191_10154387513163615_3870317931151626848_n.jpg?oh=9fc74c2adcc1b5b4ad41f797a755b3a6&oe=5812A23F)

And even started to receive personal threats to pay, like braking my leg if not :D LOL

Is this how the whole FE operates ? :D
Lol, those lines don't even point south. The Rio line points east while the aussies point west. In the FE model, South is whatever direction will get you to Antarctica the most quickly.

It looks like they are pointing North to me.  Since in the pic it looks to me the Southern Cross is above the North Pole.
Looking north to see the Southern Cross? How does that make a lick of sense?
Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Woody on August 03, 2016, 03:27:21 PM
Some news, I get an "answer " and find this spreading in truther and FE sites on facebook :

(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13873191_10154387513163615_3870317931151626848_n.jpg?oh=9fc74c2adcc1b5b4ad41f797a755b3a6&oe=5812A23F)

And even started to receive personal threats to pay, like braking my leg if not :D LOL

Is this how the whole FE operates ? :D
Lol, those lines don't even point south. The Rio line points east while the aussies point west. In the FE model, South is whatever direction will get you to Antarctica the most quickly.

It looks like they are pointing North to me.  Since in the pic it looks to me the Southern Cross is above the North Pole.
Looking north to see the Southern Cross? How does that make a lick of sense?

It does not.  Much like much of the FE  hypotheses made to explain things.  I was just pointing out that the picture to me looks like someone would need to look north. 

Title: Re: The Southern Cross as the strongest argument against FE
Post by: Wowureallybelievethis? on August 06, 2016, 02:59:01 PM
See thats why I have some sense of sympathy for the flat earth people, because I come here trying to get involved in a discussion and when you say UFO people think you're lying or delusional.  I'm not going to describe it to you and I know a handful of others that have had similar experiences, some in groups.  So if the flat earth is a lie so are UFOs?  So is everything you haven't pissed on physically?  Doesn't the earth being round in a giant universe increase the supposed likelihood of UFOs?  You know most governments actually release their UFO information publically unlike America.  So governments lie about that but not about Antarctica?  Before I got stuck looking at flat earth shit for giggles I just got done reading universe from nothing, I skimmed over two words and people can't handle it..  I'm not here because I'm a barbarian I just enjoy discussions.  If you guys were as brilliant as you claim to be you wouldn't be hovering over a message board.

Made an account just to ask this extremely simple question that will never be answered. If you have seen a UFO, and interpret that as aliens from another planet, and you also think the Earth may be flat with a dome covering it, then where did the aliens come from?

Edit: One of these conspiracies is automatically a lie. Pick one, you can't have both.