The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Trekky0623 on October 07, 2013, 10:35:12 AM

Title: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Trekky0623 on October 07, 2013, 10:35:12 AM
They have. Here's why.

The Affordable Care Act has literally gone through all three branches of the US Government. It went through the House and passed. Then it went to the Senate and passed. Then it went to the President, who signed it. Then it went to the Supreme Court, and it was upheld. It has been quite literally been done by the book, and it's situations like these that were foreseen by the people who wrote the Constitution, which is why they wrote in three branches of government.

But the GOP in the House, for some reason, think they know better than the legislative, executive, and judicial branches, as well as the founding fathers and the Constitution, and have decided to take matters into their own hands and nullify legislation they think shouldn't be law.

What in the world.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 10:48:06 AM
The GOP controls the house. The house holds the purse strings. These republicans were fairly voted in to these positions and given the power to do this. It is neither ransom or an abuse of power. They were given the power to vote on the federal budget and didn't like the part where Obama was giving away hundreds of billions of dollars to people who did not earn it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 10:57:51 AM
A child on the west coast wants his parents to let him go on a 2 week long school trip to Washington DC. Mom says yes, and dad says yes. Initially, it seems like a good educational experience. But over time, as the trip nears, the full details come out and when it's time to pay the bill, $3700 for plane trip, hotel, plus expenses, Dad comes to his senses and puts his foot down. The amount is too burdensome for his family to pay in their financial situation.

Why is it wrong for Dad to do this?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Trekky0623 on October 07, 2013, 10:58:23 AM
The GOP controls the house. The house holds the purse strings. These republicans were fairly voted in to these positions and given the power to do this. It is neither ransom or an abuse of power. They were given the power to vote on the federal budget and didn't like the part where Obama was giving away hundreds of billions of dollars to people who did not earn it.

The continuing resolution and the budget is not supposed to be used to nullify legislation. And if this succeeds, it creates a precedent where a majority in the house, or heck, a minority in the Senate, could grind the federal government to a halt whenever there is legislation they'd rather not have.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Trekky0623 on October 07, 2013, 10:59:26 AM
A child on the west coast wants his parents to let him go on a 2 week long school trip to Washington DC. Mom says yes, and dad says yes. Initially, it seems like a good educational experience. But over time, as the trip nears, the full details come out and when it's time to pay the bill, $3500 for plane trip, hotel, plus expenses, Dad comes to his senses and puts his foot down. The amount too burdensome for his family to pay in their financial situation.

Why is it wrong for Dad to do this?

A family isn't a democracy, and "Dad" is not a branch of government.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 07, 2013, 11:01:32 AM
The GOP controls the house. The house holds the purse strings. These republicans were fairly voted in to these positions and given the power to do this. It is neither ransom or an abuse of power. They were given the power to vote on the federal budget and didn't like the part where Obama was giving away hundreds of billions of dollars to people who did not earn it.
Actually, while the GOP do control the house, they don't control 100% of the house.  They have a slim majority.  And IF the house majority leader were to put up a "clean bill" for vote, it's likely that it would pass.  Which is why he isn't. 

So why is he not putting it up for vote?
The 30 Tea Party members.  If he does something they don't want (put a clean bill up for vote) they will stop supporting him.  If that occurs he'll likely be voted out of his position.


So tell me:
If a leader refuses to allow a vote for the sole purpose of saving his job, what does that make him?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rushy on October 07, 2013, 11:05:40 AM
OP thinks once a law is made no one should be allowed to mess with it, even if it is unpopular with half the country. What a retart.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 07, 2013, 11:22:12 AM
Why is it so hard to understand? If you don't like a law you can repeal it and see what happens.

Rushy says "OP thinks no one should be able to mess with it". They aren't just messing with it alone, they are messing with everything besides the law.

Tom says this is dad putting his foot down. No, this is dad refusing to let his son go on the trip by blowing up the airport.

The president will not negotiate with terrorists.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Saddam Hussein on October 07, 2013, 11:44:14 AM
Are the other two threads we have on this subject not enough or something?

They were given the power to vote on the federal budget and didn't like the part where Obama was giving away hundreds of billions of dollars to people who did not earn it.

That's not what happened, Tom.  We've been over this.  The ACA has already been funded.  The GOP aren't refusing to fund the ACA itself with the shutdown, they're refusing to fund the rest of the government as leverage to try and force the rest of Congress to repeal it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 11:46:44 AM
That's not what happened, Tom.  We've been over this.  The ACA has already been funded.  The GOP aren't refusing to fund the ACA itself with the shutdown, they're refusing to fund the rest of the government as leverage to try and force the rest of Congress to repeal it.

Before the shutdown the house leaders sent a bill to the Senate to fund the government without the financial burden of Obamacare. It was rejected. The Senate are the ones who shut down the government in the name of Obamacare.

The house is simply exercising fiscal responsibility. The Senate is insisting on this deranged program which will hurt businesses, hurt the poor, and hurt the American economy. Since the million page Obamacare bill was first introduced years ago a lot of bad press was found out about it as the details were sorted and the consequences were weighed. Having time to go though a law and discussing all of its merits is the standard process of government. This is the final process, final funding by the house, and Obamacare failed the mark.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 07, 2013, 11:54:20 AM
That's not what happened, Tom.  We've been over this.  The ACA has already been funded.  The GOP aren't refusing to fund the ACA itself with the shutdown, they're refusing to fund the rest of the government as leverage to try and force the rest of Congress to repeal it.

Before the shutdown the house leaders sent a bill to the Senate to fund the government without the financial burden of Obamacare. It was rejected. The Senate are the ones who shut down the government in the name of Obamacare.

The house is simply exercising fiscal responsibility. The Senate are insisting on this deranged program which will hurt businesses, hurt the poor, and hurt the American economy. Since the million page Obamacare bill was first introduced years ago a lot of bad press was found out about it as the details were sorted and the consequences were weighed. Having time to go though a law and discussing all of its merits is the standard process of government. This is the final process, final funding by the house, and Obamacare failed the mark.
The House is insisting on this deranged strategy which is hurting businesses, hurting middle class, and hurting the American economy as we speak.  All in the name of saving face with the Tea Party as a last ditch effort to show they are still against Obamacare.  There are ways to legally repeal laws, they have tried and failed that way.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 02:22:46 PM
The House is insisting on this deranged strategy which is hurting businesses, hurting middle class, and hurting the American economy as we speak.  All in the name of saving face with the Tea Party as a last ditch effort to show they are still against Obamacare.  There are ways to legally repeal laws, they have tried and failed that way.

This is also a legal way to repeal the law. This is not illegal. Demanding concessions in the federal budget is entirely fair game. One side wants to sink the tax payers with more debt and higher taxes and the other side does not.

The house holds the purse strings. The house decides which programs ultimately get funded or not. They were democratically elected into this position fairly. They are going to these measures of shutting down the government and threatening default because Obama is flatly refusing to negotiate on Obamacare and on the debt ceiling.

Obama does not get to have his way or the highway. He is not king and master of the government. No modern president has flatly refused to negotiate with the other side. Government works by both sides being willing to engage in compromise.

Time and time again negotiations are refused. The GOP is taking a stand to fight the tyranny and irresponsibility of the democrats.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: OrbisNonSufficit on October 07, 2013, 02:28:44 PM
A child on the west coast wants his parents to let him go on a 2 week long school trip to Washington DC. Mom says yes, and dad says yes. Initially, it seems like a good educational experience. But over time, as the trip nears, the full details come out and when it's time to pay the bill, $3700 for plane trip, hotel, plus expenses, Dad comes to his senses and puts his foot down. The amount is too burdensome for his family to pay in their financial situation.

Why is it wrong for Dad to do this?

Because the Mom and Grandpa are okay with spending grandpa's money on the trip.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Saddam Hussein on October 07, 2013, 03:04:47 PM
A child on the west coast wants his parents to let him go on a 2 week long school trip to Washington DC. Mom says yes, and dad says yes. Initially, it seems like a good educational experience. But over time, as the trip nears, the full details come out and when it's time to pay the bill, $3700 for plane trip, hotel, plus expenses, Dad comes to his senses and puts his foot down. The amount is too burdensome for his family to pay in their financial situation.

Why is it wrong for Dad to do this?

Because the Mom and Grandpa are okay with spending grandpa's money on the trip.

Please don't indulge his ridiculous analogy.  It's too stupid to merit discussion.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: hoppy on October 07, 2013, 04:10:00 PM
The GOP controls the house. The house holds the purse strings. These republicans were fairly voted in to these positions and given the power to do this. It is neither ransom or an abuse of power. They were given the power to vote on the federal budget and didn't like the part where Obama was giving away hundreds of billions of dollars to people who did not earn it.

The continuing resolution and the budget is not supposed to be used to nullify legislation. And if this succeeds, it creates a precedent where a majority in the house, or heck, a minority in the Senate, could grind the federal government to a halt whenever there is legislation they'd rather not have.
This the way our government is set up to work. Obama and the dems could cave a little.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on October 07, 2013, 04:31:46 PM
The GOP has not gone insane.  They are as sane as they ever were.  This has nothing to do with a law they feel is unjust.  This has to do with tarnishing Obama's image.  Period.  Otherwise they wouldn't be throwing a tantrum over what is essentially a conservative law in its current form.

Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: markjo on October 07, 2013, 04:41:17 PM
Why is it so hard to understand? If you don't like a law you can repeal it and see what happens.
They tried 42 times to repeal Obamacare and they failed 42 times.  Why is it so hard for them to take a hint?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: hoppy on October 07, 2013, 05:55:17 PM
Why is it so hard to understand? If you don't like a law you can repeal it and see what happens.
They tried 42 times to repeal Obamacare and they failed 42 times.  Why is it so hard for them to take a hint?
What is going on is nothing more than a charade.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on October 07, 2013, 06:30:22 PM
Why is it so hard to understand? If you don't like a law you can repeal it and see what happens.
They tried 42 times to repeal Obamacare and they failed 42 times.  Why is it so hard for them to take a hint?
What is going on is nothing more than a charade.

Hoppy gets it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Excelsior John on October 07, 2013, 06:41:17 PM
They were alredey insane from the start
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: markjo on October 07, 2013, 07:01:19 PM
Actually, it's the American people who have gone insane.  After all, how else could a group with a 10% approval rating maintain a 90% incumbency rate?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on October 07, 2013, 07:03:52 PM
Redistricting.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Saddam Hussein on October 07, 2013, 07:38:31 PM
No, it's apathy and laziness.  Educating oneself on the political process is too much effort.  It's much easier to just complain about it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 07:45:47 PM
A child on the west coast wants his parents to let him go on a 2 week long school trip to Washington DC. Mom says yes, and dad says yes. Initially, it seems like a good educational experience. But over time, as the trip nears, the full details come out and when it's time to pay the bill, $3700 for plane trip, hotel, plus expenses, Dad comes to his senses and puts his foot down. The amount is too burdensome for his family to pay in their financial situation.

Why is it wrong for Dad to do this?

Because the Mom and Grandpa are okay with spending grandpa's money on the trip.

Dad appeals to Mom to negotiate. Maybe they can send their child to nearby Sacramento, the Capital of California instead. Mom refuses negotiation: "Send Timmy to D.C. Give us $3700. No negotiation. End of story."

Is Dad unreasonable to put his foot down and put non-critical family expenses on hold until an agreement can be met, or is Mom unreasonable for being unwilling to negotiate and reach a comprimise?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Saddam Hussein on October 07, 2013, 07:58:04 PM
See what you've started, Orbis?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 07, 2013, 07:58:50 PM
I thought the GOP wanted the law repealed. How are they compromising?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rushy on October 07, 2013, 08:02:34 PM
Let's fund half the bill. I think that's a good compromise.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 08:06:46 PM
I thought the GOP wanted the law repealed. How are they compromising?

The GOP had submitted a number of compromise offers before the government shut down. See this one (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/house-gop-shutdown-2013_n_4018547.html) submitted at the end of September.

Obama has been unwilling to negotiate on anything related to Obamacare, or the country's debt. He is unwilling to reach across the isle and compromise. That's why we are where we are today.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 07, 2013, 08:15:40 PM
Tom, that is crazy. Unwilling to compromise on what? You can't call it a compromise when the offer by Republicans was to not shut the government down. That should have never been on the table and you know it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 08:18:25 PM
Tom, that is crazy. Unwilling to compromise on what? You can't call it a compromise when the offer by Republicans was to not shut the government down. That should have never been on the table and you know it.

Look at the link I provided above. Before the shutdown the GOP offered to keep Obamacare, with a delay of its Individual Mandate, a controversial portion of Obamacare which forces people to pay penalties if they do not purchase insurance.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 07, 2013, 08:22:25 PM
Tom, that is crazy. Unwilling to compromise on what? You can't call it a compromise when the offer by Republicans was to not shut the government down. That should have never been on the table and you know it.

Look at the link I provided above. The GOP offered to keep Obamacare, with a delay of its Individual Mandate, a controversial portion of Obamacare which forces people to pay penalties if they do not purchase insurance.

I did look at the link. You are implying that we are in this mess because Obama didn't agree to a compromise so its okay for Republicans to shut the government down. It doesn't matter if Obama would have agreed to it or not, the threat of shutting down the government is terrorism.

Its like me telling you to admit the world is round or else I'll hack the FES and destroy it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on October 07, 2013, 08:27:49 PM
Its like me telling you to admit the world is round or else I'll hack the FES and destroy it.

I...think it's a little more serious than that.

Oh, but then again...  :-\
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 08:30:35 PM
I did look at the link. You are implying that we are in this mess because Obama didn't agree to a compromise so its okay for Republicans to shut the government down. It doesn't matter if Obama would have agreed to it or not, the threat of shutting down the government is terrorism.

Its like me telling you to admit the world is round or else I'll hack the FES and destroy it.

They did not shut it down. They simply not agree to fund Obama's federal budget proposal, just like the Senate did not agree to any of the proposals put forward by the house. The shutdown was a consequence of that.

All modern presidents have had the dignity to reach across the isle to the other side and negotiate to come to a comprimise. This is the foundation of how government works. A refusal to negotiate is unpresidented. Obama and the democrats have been refusing to negoatiate long before the government shutdown.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 07, 2013, 08:32:29 PM
How is delaying the mandate a year going to save money?  If it's truly about the budget and not the Tea Party's drive to remove ACA then it should be budget related right?  If anything, it would seem delaying that mandate would cost more money due to not being able to collect any penalties.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: OrbisNonSufficit on October 07, 2013, 08:33:56 PM
See what you've started, Orbis?

I'm sorry...  I'm really fucking sorry about this... So sour.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 07, 2013, 08:35:26 PM
I don't think we should negotiate with people that think its okay to hold the country hostage. I look forward to the final dagger in the big elephants side starting in 2014.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tausami on October 07, 2013, 08:35:52 PM
It's not the GOP that's gone insane, it's the American Government in general. We've created a system prone to gerrymandering, and that's exactly what happened. The majority of congressmen have arranged it so that the only way they can be beaten in a congressional race is in the primary against another member of the same party. Being moderate and willing to compromise could cost them their jobs.

I did look at the link. You are implying that we are in this mess because Obama didn't agree to a compromise so its okay for Republicans to shut the government down. It doesn't matter if Obama would have agreed to it or not, the threat of shutting down the government is terrorism.

Its like me telling you to admit the world is round or else I'll hack the FES and destroy it.

They did not shut it down. They simply not agree to fund Obama's federal budget proposal, just like the Senate did not agree to any of the proposals put forward by the house. The shutdown was a consequence of that.

All modern presidents have had the dignity to reach across the isle to the other side and negotiate to come to a comprimise. This is the foundation of how government works. A refusal to negotiate is unpresidented. Obama and the democrats have been refusing to negoatiate long before the government shutdown.

No, Tom. They didn't disagree to the budget proposal. They disagreed to the temporary measure that gets passed almost automatically in order to allow them to disagree without the government shutting down.

This isn't a situation of negotiation. This is a hostage situation. In a negotiation the GOP would have something to give. All they have is the threat of continued shutdown.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 08:45:58 PM
How is delaying the mandate a year going to save money?  If it's truly about the budget and not the Tea Party's drive to remove ACA then it should be budget related right?  If anything, it would seem delaying that mandate would cost more money due to not being able to collect any penalties.

The Individual mandate is extremely unpopular. The GOP offered to pass Obamacare with the Individual Mandate delayed for a year, so that Congress, both the House and Senate, could have more time to debate its virtues, perhaps changing the mandate rules or eliminate it outright.

The GOP has shown the willingness to compromise, something Obama has been unwilling to do with Obamacare and the debt ceiling. The GOP have also expressed concerns about the ACA's transformation of medicare. Obama could have easily engaged in discussions to find an amiable common ground in these subjects. Instead he has flatly refused to engage in negotiation.

I don't think we should negotiate with people that think its okay to hold the country hostage. I look forward to the final dagger in the big elephants side starting in 2014.

The GOP wasn't holding the country hostage for the last several years they've been expressing concerns about Obamacare, requesting reform and compromise solutions. They are not holding the country hostage today. They have simply voted against Obama's spending spree. The GOP wants the government open for business. They have submitted numerous government funding bills which the Senate has failed to pass.

Quote
This isn't a situation of negotiation. This is a hostage situation. In a negotiation the GOP would have something to give. All they have is the threat of continued shutdown.

I've shown that the GOP is willing to negotiate and reach compromise solutions. Obama is not willing to negotiate at all.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 07, 2013, 08:55:42 PM
You are not grasping this tom. Compromise or not, the Republicans made it finally happen.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Ocius on October 07, 2013, 08:57:14 PM
Obama can't have his only big achievement destroyed, now can he? This is as much a dick waving contest by the democrats as it is by the republicans.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on October 07, 2013, 08:59:36 PM
Well, except that the Democrats aren't actively shutting down the government.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 07, 2013, 09:00:07 PM
So to sum this up, the mandate doesn't change the budget but the republicans refuse to pass the continuing resolution without removing the mandate.  In other words, the republicans refuse to pass the budget until a non budgetary item is removed and are thus holding the nation ransom for their own agenda. If you have a problem with legislation, attack it during aa normal session, if you have a problem with a budget item, attack it with the continuing resolution sessions.  Seems pretty straight forward.  Obama and the Senate have also stated they are willing to talk about ACA, just not as part of the budget.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 07, 2013, 09:03:12 PM
Mr. Boehner called a vote to end Obamacare 42 times but won't call a vote to end the government shutdown. Hmmmmm.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: 29silhouette on October 07, 2013, 09:10:45 PM
A child on the west coast wants his parents to let him go on a 2 week long school trip to Washington DC. Mom says yes, and dad says yes. Initially, it seems like a good educational experience. But over time, as the trip nears, the full details come out and when it's time to pay the bill, $3700 for plane trip, hotel, plus expenses, Dad comes to his senses and puts his foot down. The amount is too burdensome for his family to pay in their financial situation.

Why is it wrong for Dad to do this?

Because the Mom and Grandpa are okay with spending grandpa's money on the trip.

Actually the family does go and it doesn't cost them anything. 

The neighbors that work for a living get the bill and are required to cover the expenses because they have a little extra cash every payday after paying the other taxes and bills.

Damn greedy middle class people wanting to keep what little extra money they make to use on themselves for things like car payments and such.  There's FSA (free shit army) members out there that want to crank out more babies on other people's dime, and Obamacare is the answer for them.


Obama can't have his only big achievement destroyed, now can he? This is as much a dick waving contest by the democrats as it is by the republicans.
Can driving up the cost of living and taking away the freedom of choosing not to purchase something be considered an achievement?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Ocius on October 07, 2013, 09:12:22 PM
Can driving up the cost of living and taking away the freedom of choosing not to purchase something be considered an achievement?

That was sarcasm.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 09:49:36 PM
You are not grasping this tom. Compromise or not, the Republicans made it finally happen.

Incorrect. The Republicans did not "shut down the government". Right before the shutdown occurred the House sent a funding bill to the Senate, who failed to fund the government with that bill, sticking to their guns. The government shut down as a result.

No one shut down the government. The government shut itself down when the two parties could not reach an amiable solution. This is what happen when one party flatly refuses to negotiate on a comprimise.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 10:02:16 PM
So to sum this up, the mandate doesn't change the budget but the republicans refuse to pass the continuing resolution without removing the mandate.  In other words, the republicans refuse to pass the budget until a non budgetary item is removed and are thus holding the nation ransom for their own agenda.

Obamacare is a bugetary item. It is not non-bugetary. It is funded by the federal government. A vote on the federal budget and all of its programs is a direct vote on Obamacare.

Voting NO on the president's wild irresponsible spending sprees is not "holding the nation at ransom". The GOP is willing to negotiate the matter and find a common ground where they can reach a comprimise solution. Obama is flat out refusing to reach out and have discussions with the other side on any of his bills, or the debt ceiling. What kind of president is that?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 10:10:20 PM
Mr. Boehner called a vote to end Obamacare 42 times but won't call a vote to end the government shutdown. Hmmmmm.

In order for a bill to be called to a vote on the floor of the House it first needs to be supported by a majority of the majority. It's called the Hastert Rule (http://www.policymic.com/articles/52915/immigration-reform-2013-what-is-the-hastert-rule-and-why-will-it-sink-immigration-reform). The Senate has a similar process. The House has been submitting government funding bills to the Senate too, and they're not bringing up the House's bills for a vote over there, either.

Gridlock like this is common in government. This is why negotiation and compromise is required.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 07, 2013, 11:12:09 PM
On the subject of the debt crisis, a senior White House official said today that the president would rather default than to sit down and negotiate (http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/326951-boehner-obama-gambling-with-economy-by-refusing-to-talk#ixzz2h44IPHQH).
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: 29silhouette on October 07, 2013, 11:23:21 PM
That was sarcasm.
Don't worry, I know.  Just threw that out to rile up a lib or two.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 06:54:08 AM
On the subject of the debt crisis, a senior White House official said today that the president would rather default than to sit down and negotiate (http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/326951-boehner-obama-gambling-with-economy-by-refusing-to-talk#ixzz2h44IPHQH).

The same article says this and has been repeated in the media over and over again:

"Obama, who has repeatedly said he would not negotiate with Republicans until they open the government and raise the debt ceiling, also said Boehner should bring up a clean debt ceiling bill."

Obama is willing to negotiate after the government shutdown is not being used as a card in the negotiation. You need to stop twisting this, it's just common sense.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: markjo on October 08, 2013, 07:51:13 AM
So to sum this up, the mandate doesn't change the budget but the republicans refuse to pass the continuing resolution without removing the mandate.  In other words, the republicans refuse to pass the budget until a non budgetary item is removed and are thus holding the nation ransom for their own agenda.

Obamacare is a bugetary item. It is not non-bugetary. It is funded by the federal government. A vote on the federal budget and all of its programs is a direct vote on Obamacare.
Tom, did you happen to notice that the part of the government that is responsible for ACA enrollment is still up and running, despite the government shutdown?  Do you know why?  It's because ACA is already funded for the year, therefore this budget battle has nothing to with Obamacare.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 08, 2013, 08:17:19 AM
Tom has a wild imagination.

The only reason we're in this spot is because THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH VOTES IN THE HOUSE TO DEFUND THE ACA.  So instead, the GOP is saying that if it can't defund the ACA through the normal budget process, it'll just refuse to vote for any budget at all until the Democrats 'compromise' by agreeing to defund the ACA.

Using fear, threats, and intimidation to achieve your political goals isn't good governance; it's terrorism.

Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 08, 2013, 08:19:17 AM
So to sum this up, the mandate doesn't change the budget but the republicans refuse to pass the continuing resolution without removing the mandate.  In other words, the republicans refuse to pass the budget until a non budgetary item is removed and are thus holding the nation ransom for their own agenda.

Obamacare is a bugetary item. It is not non-bugetary. It is funded by the federal government. A vote on the federal budget and all of its programs is a direct vote on Obamacare.
Tom, did you happen to notice that the part of the government that is responsible for ACA enrollment is still up and running, despite the government shutdown?  Do you know why?  It's because ACA is already funded for the year, therefore this budget battle has nothing to with Obamacare.
It has everything to do with ACA, just nothing to do budgetarily with it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 08:21:18 AM
For Tom.

A Federal Budget Crisis Months in the Planning and You Know Who is Behind This: The Perverted and Decrepit Kochs

Shortly after President Obama started his second term, a loose-knit coalition of conservative activists led by former Attorney General Edwin Meese III gathered in the capital to plot strategy. Their push to repeal Mr. Obama’s health care law was going nowhere, and they desperately needed a new plan.

Out of that session, held one morning in a location the members insist on keeping secret, came a little-noticed “blueprint to defunding Obamacare,” signed by Mr. Meese and leaders of more than three dozen conservative groups.

It articulated a take-no-prisoners legislative strategy that had long percolated in conservative circles: that Republicans could derail the health care overhaul if conservative lawmakers were willing to push fellow Republicans — including their cautious leaders — into cutting off financing for the entire federal government.

“We felt very strongly at the start of this year that the House needed to use the power of the purse,” said one coalition member, Michael A. Needham, who runs Heritage Action for America, the political arm of the Heritage Foundation. “At least at Heritage Action, we felt very strongly from the start that this was a fight that we were going to pick.”

Last week the country witnessed the fallout from that strategy: a standoff that has shuttered much of the federal bureaucracy and unsettled the nation.

To many Americans, the shutdown came out of nowhere. But interviews with a wide array of conservatives show that the confrontation that precipitated the crisis was the outgrowth of a long-running effort to undo the law, the Affordable Care Act, since its passage in 2010 — waged by a galaxy of conservative groups with more money, organized tactics and interconnections than is commonly known.

With polls showing Americans deeply divided over the law, conservatives believe that the public is behind them. Although the law’s opponents say that shutting down the government was not their objective, the activists anticipated that a shutdown could occur — and worked with members of the Tea Party caucus in Congress who were excited about drawing a red line against a law they despise.

A defunding “tool kit” created in early September included talking points for the question, “What happens when you shut down the government and you are blamed for it?” The suggested answer was the one House Republicans give today: “We are simply calling to fund the entire government except for the Affordable Care Act/Obamacare.”

The billionaire Koch brothers, Charles and David, have been deeply involved with financing the overall effort. A group linked to the Kochs, Freedom Partners Chamber of Commerce, disbursed more than $200 million last year to nonprofit organizations involved in the fight. Included was $5 million to Generation Opportunity, which created a buzz last month with an Internet advertisement showing a menacing Uncle Sam figure popping up between a woman’s legs during a gynecological exam.

The groups have also sought to pressure vulnerable Republican members of Congress with scorecards keeping track of their health care votes; have burned faux “Obamacare cards” on college campuses; and have distributed scripts for phone calls to Congressional offices, sample letters to editors and Twitter and Facebook offerings for followers to present as their own.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-federal-budget-crisis-months-in-the-planning.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20131006&_r=2& (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/us/a-federal-budget-crisis-months-in-the-planning.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20131006&_r=2&)

These are sick, sick, perverted, fucked-up people who should all be behind bars. Mother fuckers are slime who can only achieve what they want through devious strategies, lies. and terrorist activities. They have staged this shutdown with absolutely no regard to all of the people who have been harmed and all of the businesses that will be harmed.

"You are here because now is the single best time we have to defund Obamacare. This is a fight we can win." SENATOR TED CRUZ, speaking in August to a Heritage Action gathering in Dallas
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 08:23:34 AM
Sedition conspiracy is against the law!

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by *force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

*"force" in this case is the refusal to fund the government for the purpose of hindering the execution of the Affordable Care Act.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384)
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 08:55:49 AM
On the subject of the debt crisis, a senior White House official said today that the president would rather default than to sit down and negotiate (http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/house/326951-boehner-obama-gambling-with-economy-by-refusing-to-talk#ixzz2h44IPHQH).

The same article says this and has been repeated in the media over and over again:

"Obama, who has repeatedly said he would not negotiate with Republicans until they open the government and raise the debt ceiling, also said Boehner should bring up a clean debt ceiling bill."

Obama is willing to negotiate after the government shutdown is not being used as a card in the negotiation. You need to stop twisting this, it's just common sense.

No. Obama had been unwilling to negotiate for a long time before the government shutdown. This is not some new event where he is rightously refusing to negotiate.

Refusing to negotiate on the federal budget until your spending spree federal budget is passed is a very idiotic platform to maintain.

So to sum this up, the mandate doesn't change the budget but the republicans refuse to pass the continuing resolution without removing the mandate.  In other words, the republicans refuse to pass the budget until a non budgetary item is removed and are thus holding the nation ransom for their own agenda.

Obamacare is a bugetary item. It is not non-bugetary. It is funded by the federal government. A vote on the federal budget and all of its programs is a direct vote on Obamacare.
Tom, did you happen to notice that the part of the government that is responsible for ACA enrollment is still up and running, despite the government shutdown?  Do you know why?  It's because ACA is already funded for the year, therefore this budget battle has nothing to with Obamacare.

The ACA is part of the federal budget. Even if it was pre-funded with some of the government's funds, it is still part of the federal budget, as a program to maintain. Congress is voting directly on the federal budget, which has a little something to do with Obamacare. That money pre-funded for Obamacare didn't just come from a magic tree. That money came out of other areas of the government (sequester), or otherwise increased the country's debt. This is not a magic system where the government has infinite money to spend.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 08, 2013, 09:18:14 AM
I wish I could find the chart again, but there was recently a graphic on one of the major news outlets that contained a breakdown of the origin of the amendments, riders, etc in the ACA text.  They found that a significant portions of the legislation in the ACA originated from GOP lawmakers.  I can't find it again, but maybe someone else can.  Found it: http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/10/daily-chart-1 (http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2013/10/daily-chart-1)

(http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/2013/10/blogs/graphic-detail/20131005_gdc493_1190.png)

Obama has been compromising on the ACA since day one.  The GOP isn't asking for a compromise.  They're declaring that they refuse to pass any budget that funds the ACA.  That's not compromise, and it isn't a negotiation.

I'm amazed that so many people can be so gullible as to think that the GOP is taking some sort of moral stand.  It's laughable.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 09:20:57 AM
Sedition conspiracy is against the law!

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by *force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

*"force" in this case is the refusal to fund the government for the purpose of hindering the execution of the Affordable Care Act.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384)

The GOP didn't shut down the government by force. It was done by both sides by refusing to sign each other's federal budget bills. The government shut down as a result.

It could equally be said that Obama is holding the government "hostage" by refusing to negotiate on the country's spending and debt issues. After all, it is Obama who is saying "My way or the highway" while John Boeher is saying that Obama is flatly refusing to engage in discussions on the country's spending or debt. We deserve a better president. This is absurd. This is not how government works. What kind of president would refuse to negotiate in the debt issues and let the country default?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Saddam Hussein on October 08, 2013, 09:24:01 AM
If only Romney had won, amirite?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 08, 2013, 09:25:37 AM
The GOP didn't shut down the government by force. It was done by both sides by refusing to sign each other's federal budget bills. The government shut down as a result.

It could equally be said that Obama is holding the government "hostage" by refusing to negotiate on the country's spending and debt issues. It's Obama who is saying "My way or the highway". We deserve a better president. This is absurd. What kind of president would refuse to negotiate in the debt issues and let the country default?

Let's suppose that the GOP succeeds and the ACA is defunded.  If the Democrats come back to the budget process next year and say "we will not sign any budget that does not fully fund the ACA," and this in turns leads to a government shutdown, then you'll place the burden of responsibility on the GOP for shutting down the government, yes?

Or maybe the Dems could come to the table next year and say, "we refuse to sign any budget at all until you defund [insert conservative public policy here]," you'll expect GOP lawmakers to concede those demands, yes?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 09:30:47 AM
Sedition conspiracy is against the law!

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by *force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

*"force" in this case is the refusal to fund the government for the purpose of hindering the execution of the Affordable Care Act.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384 (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2384)

The GOP didn't shut down the government by force. It was done by both sides by refusing to sign each other's federal budget bills. The government shut down as a result.

It could equally be said that Obama is holding the government "hostage" by refusing to negotiate on the country's spending and debt issues. After all, it is Obama who is saying "My way or the highway" while John Boeher is saying that Obama is flatly refusing to engage in discussions on the country's spending or debt. We deserve a better president. This is absurd. This is not how government works. What kind of president would refuse to negotiate in the debt issues and let the country default?

As garygreen just made clear, Obama has been negotiating from day one. The original bill has been changed significantly and has seen a vote 42 times.

Obama isn't holding the country hostage. He has stated that he is willing to continue negotiations after the government shutdown ends and this is a justified line of reasoning seeing as the Republicans should not be able to use the government shutdown as any kind of leverage. You need to stop watching that FOX news.

Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Blanko on October 08, 2013, 09:31:08 AM
If only Romney had won, amirite?

He's winning by a landslide.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 09:38:28 AM
The GOP didn't shut down the government by force. It was done by both sides by refusing to sign each other's federal budget bills. The government shut down as a result.

It could equally be said that Obama is holding the government "hostage" by refusing to negotiate on the country's spending and debt issues. It's Obama who is saying "My way or the highway". We deserve a better president. This is absurd. What kind of president would refuse to negotiate in the debt issues and let the country default?

Let's suppose that the GOP succeeds and the ACA is defunded.  If the Democrats come back to the budget process next year and say "we will not sign any budget that does not fully fund the ACA," and this in turns leads to a government shutdown, then you'll place the burden of responsibility on the GOP for shutting down the government, yes?

Or maybe the Dems could come to the table next year and say, "we refuse to sign any budget at all until you defund [insert conservative public policy here]," you'll expect GOP lawmakers to concede those demands, yes?

Except that's not what is happening. The GOP has been willing to negotiate, by offering settlement offers of changing only some parts of Obamacare. Leading up to the shutdown they have also suggested other settlement items, such as relaxing regulation which are keeping the Keystone Pipeline from being built.

Reaching over and and coming to compromise solutions with the other side through negotiation is HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS. All other presidents have been willing to negotiate during a grid lock in Congress. This is standard protocol, and has been for a very long time. Obama is seeing to buck the trend with a total refusal to negotiate with Congress. This is out of line.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 09:40:20 AM
The GOP didn't shut down the government by force. It was done by both sides by refusing to sign each other's federal budget bills. The government shut down as a result.

It could equally be said that Obama is holding the government "hostage" by refusing to negotiate on the country's spending and debt issues. It's Obama who is saying "My way or the highway". We deserve a better president. This is absurd. What kind of president would refuse to negotiate in the debt issues and let the country default?

Let's suppose that the GOP succeeds and the ACA is defunded.  If the Democrats come back to the budget process next year and say "we will not sign any budget that does not fully fund the ACA," and this in turns leads to a government shutdown, then you'll place the burden of responsibility on the GOP for shutting down the government, yes?

Or maybe the Dems could come to the table next year and say, "we refuse to sign any budget at all until you defund [insert conservative public policy here]," you'll expect GOP lawmakers to concede those demands, yes?

Except that's not what is happening. The GOP has been willing to negotiate, by offering settlement offers of changing only some parts of Obamacare. They have also offered other settlement items, such as relaxing regulation which are keeping the Keystone Pipeline from being built.

Reaching over and and coming to compromise solutions with the other side through negotiation is HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS. All other presidents have been willing to negotiate during a grid lock in Congress. This is standard protocol, and has been for a very long time. Obama is seeing to buck the trend with a total refusal to negotiate. This is out of line.

Again, negotiations have already taken place and Obama has stated that more negotiations can take place, after the government is up and running again. The running of the government will not be a tool for negotiation. End of story.

Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 09:43:00 AM
Again, negotiations have already taken place and Obama has stated that more negotiations can take place, after the government is up and running again. The running of the government will not be a tool for negotiation. End of story.

Obama wants his federal funding bill passed and implemented before he will discuss its merits.

Do you understand how beyond absurd this sounds? Bills are negotiated before they are passed, not after.

Obama is REFUSING TO NEGOTIATE WITH CONGRESS
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 09:48:07 AM
"We will do our job and send this bill over, and then it’s up to the Senate to pass it and stop a government shutdown," House Republican leaders Boehner, Majority Leader Eric Cantor, Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy and GOP Conference Chair Cathy McMorris Rodgers said in a joint statement.

Congress must agree to a federal spending bill by Tuesday, or the federal government will partially close down until members can find a compromise solution. The Republican-led House and the Democrat-controlled Senate disagree over whether the bill should include the health care law. Last week, the House sent a spending bill to the Senate without Obamacare funding , and the Senate responded by returning the bill on Friday with the funding inserted.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said Saturday after the Republicans announced their spending plan that the upper chamber would reject anything short of a bill identical to the one passed by the Senate, and the White House issued a statement saying that the president would veto the House bill.

“Today’s vote by House Republicans is pointless. As I have said repeatedly, the Senate will reject any Republican attempt to force changes to the Affordable Care Act through a mandatory government funding bill or the debt ceiling," Reid said in a statement. "To be absolutely clear, the Senate will reject both the one-year delay of the Affordable Care Act and the repeal of the medical device tax."

The White House also responded by reiterating the president's call to pass a spending bill without riders attached.

"The President has shown that he is willing to improve the health care law and meet Republicans more than halfway to deal with our fiscal challenges, but he will not do so under threats of a government shutdown that will hurt our economy," White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said in a statement. "Any member of the Republican Party who votes for this bill is voting for a shutdown."

Does this sound like Republicans reaching across the aisle to you?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 08, 2013, 09:54:26 AM
The republicans have stepped down from complete defund to a delay in the mandate.  That particular piece of ACA has no increase to the budget and would actually add money to the government.  Their one compromise is to reduce revenue.  This isn't a battle over the budget at all, it is entirely a battle over ACA.  How is that  not evident?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 09:58:32 AM
Quote
Does this sound like Republicans reaching across the aisle to you?

Where does that article say that Republicans are unwilling to negotiate or reach across the aisle to come to comprimise solutions?

The fact is that the house willing to negoatiate. I've already shown you that before the government shutdown they have been submitting comprimise offers, such as delaying the individual mandate portion of Obamacare. It's up to the democrats and Obama to engage in negotiation to reach an amiable comprimise.

If Obama is unwilling to negotiate with congress it speaks volumes of him as a president. We deserve better than that.

The republicans have stepped down from complete defund to a delay in the mandate.  That particular piece of ACA has no increase to the budget and would actually add money to the government.  Their one compromise is to reduce revenue.  This isn't a battle over the budget at all, it is entirely a battle over ACA.  How is that  not evident?

I haven't read the million+ page Obamacare bill to know all of the details of the Individual Mandate portion. It may also be tied to the massive business mandates all businesses are forced to pay into even if none of its employees use ACA as a health insurer.

Whatever the case, the House has shown willingness to comprimise and negotiate. Why isn't Obama negotiating with Congress on these matters like a leader of democracy should?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 10:05:54 AM
Where does that article say that Republicans are unwilling to negotiate or reach across the aisle to come to comprimise solutions?

The fact is that the house willing to negoatiate. I've already shown you that before the government shutdown they have been submitting comprimise offers, such as delaying the individual mandate portion of Obamacare. It's up to the democrats and Obama to engage in negotiation to reach an amiable comprimise.

If Obama is unwilling to negotiate with congress it speaks volumes of him as a president. We deserve better than that.

You keep saying that Obama is not willing to negotiate, when the truth is that he is. This discussion can continue after the government shutdown is not used as a negotiation tool. I keep saying this and you're not listening.

It doesn't matter how you butter up the motives of the Republicans. You will not get a negotiation until the government is running again. It's simple.

You did mention this:

"Obama wants his federal funding bill passed and implemented before he will discuss its merits.

Do you understand how beyond absurd this sounds? Bills are negotiated before they are passed, not after."

The problem is that the federal funding bill that was in question was the result of negotiations. The Republicans had 8 months to get ACA to where they were satisfied and when the bill finally passed enough Repuiblicans were on board for the bill to pass, and it did.

Then the extremist Republicans couldn't stop it and instead of attacking the bill directly they went after the funding of the entire government. This makes no sense.

Boehner and his cronies need to go to jail for Sedition Conspiracy.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 08, 2013, 10:11:06 AM
Bills are negotiated before they are passed, not after.

Welcome to the point.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 10:11:27 AM
(http://longshotsblues.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/republicans-destroy-america.jpg)
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 10:16:02 AM
Quote
You keep saying that Obama is not willing to negotiate, when the truth is that he is. This discussion can continue after the government shutdown is not used as a negotiation tool. I keep saying this and you're not listening.


The House isn't going to pass and implement a spending bill and make debt agreements with the central bank on behalf of the american public, none of which they do not agree with. That is out of line.

Obama is a leader of democracy. He must be willing to negotiate with Congress on his bills and the country's debt. It is beyond childish to suggest that the President of the United States should not negotiate with the "terrorists" and "conspiritors" in Congress. This is one of his primary job functions.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 08, 2013, 10:16:36 AM
As garygreen showed Obama negotiated and compromised on the bill many times and passed 42 votes. Tom is looking at this one event and not the continuum of events leading up to it from its inception.

Furthermore there is enough Republican support to end the shutdown, but the Speaker will not put that to a vote.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4031784 (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4031784)

This definitely feels like a hostage situation by the Republicans.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 08, 2013, 10:16:50 AM
So the mandate would also apply to businesses and create even more revenue but the republicans want it removed.  Makes a whole lot of sense to shut down the government over bringing in too much money.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 10:22:16 AM
You heard it here first. Tom thinks the president should negotiate with terrorists and he also rightly thinks negotiations should take place before a bill has passed. Negotiations that did take place before they passed.

Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 10:23:09 AM
As garygreen showed Obama negotiated and compromised on the bill many times and passed 42 votes. Tom is looking at this one event and not the continuum of events leading up to it from its inception.

Furthermore there is enough Republican support to end the shutdown, but the Speaker will not put that to a vote.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4031784 (http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4031784)

This definitely feels like a hostage situation by the Republicans.

Gee, I wonder why he won't put that up for a vote ???
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 08, 2013, 10:32:48 AM
The GOP didn't shut down the government by force. It was done by both sides by refusing to sign each other's federal budget bills. The government shut down as a result.

It could equally be said that Obama is holding the government "hostage" by refusing to negotiate on the country's spending and debt issues. It's Obama who is saying "My way or the highway". We deserve a better president. This is absurd. What kind of president would refuse to negotiate in the debt issues and let the country default?

Let's suppose that the GOP succeeds and the ACA is defunded.  If the Democrats come back to the budget process next year and say "we will not sign any budget that does not fully fund the ACA," and this in turns leads to a government shutdown, then you'll place the burden of responsibility on the GOP for shutting down the government, yes?

Or maybe the Dems could come to the table next year and say, "we refuse to sign any budget at all until you defund [insert conservative public policy here]," you'll expect GOP lawmakers to concede those demands, yes?

Except that's not what is happening. The GOP has been willing to negotiate, by offering settlement offers of changing only some parts of Obamacare. Leading up to the shutdown they have also suggested other settlement items, such as relaxing regulation which are keeping the Keystone Pipeline from being built.

Reaching over and and coming to compromise solutions with the other side through negotiation is HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS. All other presidents have been willing to negotiate during a grid lock in Congress. This is standard protocol, and has been for a very long time. Obama is seeing to buck the trend with a total refusal to negotiate with Congress. This is out of line.

What compromises are the GOP offering right now?  What's their ACA compromise that they're offering that isn't defunding it?  You could be right and I simply can't find the details.  Do you have a source?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 10:39:29 AM
You heard it here first. Tom thinks the president should negotiate with terrorists and he also rightly thinks negotiations should take place before a bill has passed. Negotiations that did take place before they passed.

Please notice how the President is willing to "negotiate". In essence he is saying give me everything I want and I am willing to move on. This dictator is not negotiating he is dictating, and dictating to a group that has the power to deny him what he is demanding.

Poor play on the president's part. The House is totally in the right. We MUST have huge spending cuts. We MUST be fiscally responsible. I commend them on standing up to this irresponsible administration.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 08, 2013, 10:42:55 AM
And cut the bullshit about democracy and the will of the people.

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/fixgov/posts/2013/10/03-time-to-compromise-republicans-democrats-government-shutdown-galston (http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/fixgov/posts/2013/10/03-time-to-compromise-republicans-democrats-government-shutdown-galston)

Quote
This morning, for example, a CBS News poll found that only 25 percent of Americans approve of shutting down the government over differences about Obamacare. Only 48 percent of Republicans approve; 49 percent disapprove. Only 38 percent of Americans who disapprove of Obamacare favor shutting down the government, while 59 percent reject the strategy. Of all the groups studied in the survey, only members of the Tea Party (by a margin of 57 to 40 percent) favor the shutdown.
[...]
As was the case in most prior surveys, more Americans blame Republicans for the impasse than do the president and the Democrats. But if the CBS poll is correct, both parties will take a hit if the shutdown continues.
[...]
Today, President Obama and the congressional Democrats seem to believe that because the public opposes the shutdown, they’ll also accept the Democrats’ continuing refusal to negotiate. This may also turn out to be a miscalculation.

The logic of the situation is clear. Congressional Republicans cannot reasonably expect Obama to compromise on the signature achievement of his presidency. Now that Obamacare is going into effect, it will be up to voters in future elections to evaluate it. Republicans should turn their attention to fiscal policy, which is more negotiable—and more relevant to the budget and debt ceiling deadlines that triggered the current crisis.

We MUST have huge spending cuts. We MUST be fiscally responsible. I commend them on standing up and fighting this irresponsible administration.

Lol.  That anyone could be so naive as to think that this is actually about spending and budget issues is absolutely absurd.  It's about winning votes and banking cash.  That's it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 08, 2013, 10:45:16 AM
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2013/09/obamacare_shutdown_compromise_how_republicans_invented_a_fake_middle_ground.html (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/frame_game/2013/09/obamacare_shutdown_compromise_how_republicans_invented_a_fake_middle_ground.html)

Quote
That’s what Republicans are doing in the shutdown fight. They’re planting the assumption that the reasonable, moderate, even-handed thing to do is to “negotiate” a “compromise” between the Democratic and Republican positions on the Affordable Care Act. What they’re hiding is the absurdity of the Republican position: that a law passed by both houses of Congress, fully debated in a subsequent presidential election, and unsuccessfully challenged in more than 40 legislative votes by the losing side should be subject to repeal, defunding or delay because a single party, narrowly controlling a single chamber of Congress, otherwise refuses to fund the rest of the government.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 10:57:34 AM
It doesn't matter how the House is trivialized as "single chamber of Congress". The House controls the purse. They have the power to deny Obama what he wants. The fact of the matter is that we have a president who is flatly refusing to negotiate with Congress. Refusal to negotiate is an untenable position. "Obama refusing to negotiate with Congress" doesn't look good on any headline.

A democratic leader is willing to negotiate. A leader who does not negotiate is a dictator. Literally no president in the history of the United Sates has refused to negotiate with Congress over the country's debt. Obama is a dictator. He is imposing his absolute will on Congress and there is no room for compromise.

"Pass my spending and debt bills first, and then we'll talk" is beyond absurd. The House is not going to implement bad spending measures, take out new debt, and make debt payment agreements with the central bank on behalf of the american public if they do not support it. Obama must be willing to negotiate on the bills here and now.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 08, 2013, 11:03:46 AM
You obviously cannot comprehend how your own demands are being perceived.  You also appear not to care that is political will in the House as well as popular will to end this shutdown and pass the bill.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 08, 2013, 11:10:53 AM
It doesn't matter how the House is trivialized as "single chamber of Congress". The House controls the purse. They have the power to deny Obama what he wants. The fact of the matter is that we have a president who is flatly refusing to negotiate with Congress. Refusal to negotiate is an untenable position. "Obama refusing to negotiate with Congress" doesn't look good on any headline.

A democratic leader is willing to negotiate. A leader who does not negotiate is a dictator. Literally no president in the history of the United Sates has refused to negotiate with Congress over the country's debt. Obama is a dictator. He is imposing his absolute will on Congress and there is no room for compromise.

"Pass my spending and debt bills first, and then we'll talk" is beyond absurd. The House is not going to implement bad spending measures, take out new debt, and make debt payment agreements with the central bank on behalf of the american public if they do not support it. Obama must be willing to negotiate on the bills here and now.

You still haven't told me what the GOP negotiating position is.  What's the compromise that they're willing to strike?  All I can find from the GOP is that defunding the ACA is the exclusive condition of passing any federal budget.  How is that a negotiation?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 08, 2013, 11:20:44 AM
It doesn't matter how the House is trivialized as "single chamber of Congress". The House controls the purse. They have the power to deny Obama what he wants. The fact of the matter is that we have a president who is flatly refusing to negotiate with Congress. Refusal to negotiate is an untenable position. "Obama refusing to negotiate with Congress" doesn't look good on any headline.

A democratic leader is willing to negotiate. A leader who does not negotiate is a dictator. Literally no president in the history of the United Sates has refused to negotiate with Congress over the country's debt. Obama is a dictator. He is imposing his absolute will on Congress and there is no room for compromise.

"Pass my spending and debt bills first, and then we'll talk" is beyond absurd. The House is not going to implement bad spending measures, take out new debt, and make debt payment agreements with the central bank on behalf of the american public if they do not support it. Obama must be willing to negotiate on the bills here and now.

You still haven't told me what the GOP negotiating position is.  What's the compromise that they're willing to strike?  All I can find from the GOP is that defunding the ACA is the exclusive condition of passing any federal budget.  How is that a negotiation?
There is a quote from a GOP representative saying they just want something, even though they don't know what that something is. I'll have to look it up later to see who and what he said.  I quoted it in one of these threads.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 08, 2013, 11:31:27 AM
I just can't find anything that suggests that the GOP has a position other than 'defund the ACA.'  Again, that's not a negotiating position.  That's just a demand.

Obama has not said he will not negotiate on the ACA.  He has empirically demonstrated a total willingness to compromise with the GOP.  Obama has said that he won't negotiate the ACA until we continue to fund our current obligations.  NOT PAYING YOUR BILLS/EMPLOYEES ISN'T AN ACCEPTABLE WAY TO GET OUT OF DEBT.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec13/shutdown_10-07.html (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec13/shutdown_10-07.html)
Quote from: Robert Costa, National Review editor
House Republican leaders huddled today at the Capitol and they still remain undecided about the path forward, even as the clock ticks with the debt limit approaching.

This means Republicans really aren't ready to come up with a negotiation with President Obama, and they are just not sure of the path ahead. That means the impasse continues.

Great negotiating position.  Very rational and sensible.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 11:39:30 AM
You still haven't told me what the GOP negotiating position is.  What's the compromise that they're willing to strike?  All I can find from the GOP is that defunding the ACA is the exclusive condition of passing any federal budget.  How is that a negotiation?

The House has been willing to strike compromise on a lot besides Obamacare to avoid shutdown and debt default.

See this link of 21 things the House has offered to avoid shutdown and default (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/09/30/2699221/21-things-republicans-demanded-shutdown-default). Each of the points on the list has source links to news articles on the subject.

Obama has been unwilling to negotiate on any of this. He is flat out not negotiating with Congress and the government has shut down as a result.

There is a quote from a GOP representative saying they just want something, even though they don't know what that something is. I'll have to look it up later to see who and what he said.  I quoted it in one of these threads.

When I read that quote I saw that it was said by a outside republican who was not part of the House.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Space Cowgirl on October 08, 2013, 11:43:11 AM
GUYS, I'm glad you're all rebutting Tom because it's very interesting but the last link he provided should tell you something about how he operates.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 08, 2013, 12:08:50 PM
You mean that his link states demand while he says compromise?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Space Cowgirl on October 08, 2013, 12:11:53 PM
You mean that his link states demand while he says compromise?

Yes! He's pretending those are all reasonable "offers" made in the spirit of compromise.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 08, 2013, 12:16:37 PM
You mean that his link states demand while he says compromise?

Yes! He's pretending those are all reasonable "offers" made in the spirit of compromise.

Duly noted.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 12:24:42 PM
Bully - "Hey kid, give me your donut!"

Kid - "Maybe. What do you want to trade for it?"

Bully - "Tell you what, how about if you just give it to me. Then I'll think about not kicking your ass."

Kid - "No way, I'm not giving in to your demands."

Bully - "Sounds like a compromise to me, unless you like getting your ass beat."

Kid - ???
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 12:51:43 PM
Thinkprogress.org is a liberal website and there's a clear liberal spin on the article, but the list of offers are correct. The republicans are trying to work out compromise solutions based on their own platforms.


All of the points above are negotiable, and solutions can be reached with compromises. The House is willing to engage in negotiations over these things and Obama is not. Obama is dead set on his plan. It's his way or the highway. The process of government was gridlocked and it shut down as a result.

Obama has put in regulations so restrictive that it is impossible for some industries to operate, such as the coal industry, declaring his intention to shut down America's coal powered power plants (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/06/25/obama-declares-war-on-coal/), despite that green power technologies have been shown to be inadequate to meet the country's demands.

Obama must be willing to negotiate on this and everything else. The House Republicans are standing up to a dictator who is refusing to negotiate with Congress to reach amiable solutions.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 08, 2013, 01:34:34 PM
Tom, that is crazy. Unwilling to compromise on what? You can't call it a compromise when the offer by Republicans was to not shut the government down. That should have never been on the table and you know it.

Look at the link I provided above. Before the shutdown the GOP offered to keep Obamacare, with a delay of its Individual Mandate, a controversial portion of Obamacare which forces people to pay penalties if they do not purchase insurance.
The Senate was elected by the people to do a job.  That job is preserving Obamacare and having its implementation in schedule.  Are you suggesting that they shouldn't do what they were elected to do?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 01:38:09 PM
The Senate was elected by the people to do a job.  That job is preserving Obamacare and having its implementation in schedule.  Are you suggesting that they shouldn't do what they were elected to do?

The process of government is that when there is a gridlock in Congress, negotiations and compromises must take place. When federal funding and debt spending bills don't get signed, because one side is flatly unwilling to negotiate, bad things happen.

Negotiation and compromise to reach an agreed upon solution is standard operating procedure. A group of people unwilling to reach out across the isle to reach an agreement with the other side are an affront to the principles of democracy. Those who are unwilling to negotiate are the ones keeping the government shut down. It's not "our way of the highway". This is not a dictatorship. Our government does not work like that.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 08, 2013, 01:50:20 PM
You still haven't told me what the GOP negotiating position is.  What's the compromise that they're willing to strike?  All I can find from the GOP is that defunding the ACA is the exclusive condition of passing any federal budget.  How is that a negotiation?

The House has been willing to strike compromise on a lot besides Obamacare to avoid shutdown and debt default.

See this link of 21 things the House has offered to avoid shutdown and default (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/09/30/2699221/21-things-republicans-demanded-shutdown-default). Each of the points on the list has source links to news articles on the subject.

Obama has been unwilling to negotiate on any of this. He is flat out not negotiating with Congress and the government has shut down as a result.

I see.  Your argument is that the GOP has an ever larger list of unreasonably impractical demands that they know are absolutely impossible for them to achieve?

Perhaps this is my real problem with the GOP's tactics right now: they're not negotiating in good faith.  They're using their own bad faith as a way of labeling their opponents as unreasonable.  This is exactly the behavior that I'm criticizing.  Did you actually read the list?

1. A balanced budget amendment [Link]
2. Approving Keystone XL [Link]
3. Eliminating funding for Planned Parenthood [Link]
4. Medicare privatization [Link]
5. Tax reform, as outlined by Paul Ryan [Link]
6. The REINS Act, which would require Congress to approve significant federal regulations [Link]
7. Means-testing Social Security [Link]
8. Defunding Obamacare [Link]
9. Allowing employers to eliminate insurance coverage for birth control [Link]
10. An expansion of off-shore drilling [Link]
11. Preserving all the Bush tax cuts [Link]
12. “Trillions” in budget cuts [Link]
13. Slashing funding for food stamps [Link]
14. Protecting mountaintop strip mining [Link]
15. Stripping the EPA of authority to regulate greenhouse gases [Link]
16. Loosening regulation on coal ash [Link]
17. Delaying Obamacare implementation by one year [Link]
18. Repealing a tax on medical devices [Link]
19. Eliminating Social Service Block Grants [Link]
20. Expanding drilling on federal lands [Link]
21. Restricting the child tax credit [Link]

I mean, most of these are individually the kind of public policy that would take the lifetime of a Republican presidency to achieve.

That is a list of demands.  It is not good faith negotiation. 
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 08, 2013, 01:51:41 PM
You do realize that the only thing the Senate and Obama have said they refuse to negotiate with in order to get a continuing resolution passed is ACA. All those other demands are relatively moot in the shutdown discussion because of this.  Both sides refuse to back down from their stance on ACA. It just so happens that the GOP is actually demanding a chance to legislation in exchange for passing the budget while the Senate is not demanding anything about legislation other than to not change it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 02:03:34 PM
I see.  Your argument is that the GOP has an ever larger list of unreasonably impractical demands that they know are absolutely impossible for them to achieve?

Perhaps this is my real problem with the GOP's tactics right now: they're not negotiating in good faith.  They're using their own bad faith as a way of labeling their opponents as unreasonable.  This is exactly the behavior that I'm criticizing.  Did you actually read the list?

[snip]

If Obama or the Senate don't like those requests, they need to STEP UP AND NEGOTIATE. Perhaps they can agree on limited off shore drilling and only a trillion in reduced spending -- whatever. Refusing to negotiate and reach compromise solutions is NOT HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS.

Obama is showing to be a disgrace to the presidency. Our system of government was designed to prevent one party, or one man, from calling all the shots. This is not a dictatorship.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 08, 2013, 02:06:59 PM
“We’re not going to be disrespected,” conservative Rep. Marlin Stutzman, R-Ind., [told the Washington Examiner]. “We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”

Http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/here-is-the-short-gop-quote-that-perfectly-defines-the-shutdown/280220/ (http://Http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/here-is-the-short-gop-quote-that-perfectly-defines-the-shutdown/280220/)

There is the quote I was talking about said by a conservative representative.  Tom, the last time I checked the House of Representatives included the representatives.  Care to claim the quote isn't attached to the House now?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 02:26:34 PM
“We’re not going to be disrespected,” conservative Rep. Marlin Stutzman, R-Ind., [told the Washington Examiner]. “We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”

http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/here-is-the-short-gop-quote-that-perfectly-defines-the-shutdown/280220/ (http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/10/here-is-the-short-gop-quote-that-perfectly-defines-the-shutdown/280220/)

There is the quote I was talking about said by a conservative representative.  Tom, the last time I checked the House of Representatives included the representatives.  Care to claim the quote isn't attached to the House now?

You are correct. I see that Stutzman later apologized (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/gop-rep-stutzman-walks-back-don-t-know-what-we-want-comment) for his misspeaking.

However, I can see how that quote can be made. The House Republicans do not have one specific rallying unifying call - the closest unifying call was for Obamacare. There are a wide number of policies the House represents. They want Obama to be willing engage in negotiations and come to compromise solutions on matters of government policy, just like every other modern president has when faced with gridlock and potential shutdown and default of the federal budget. He cannot simply refuse to negotiate.

A president who refuses to come to agreements with Congress is a bad president.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 08, 2013, 02:48:37 PM
A president who refuses to come to agreements with Congress is a bad president.

And a Congress that refuses to negotiate within itself and go through the proper procedures to try and repeal a law is a bad Congress.  Is it really news to you that our entire government is shit?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 03:09:51 PM
A president who refuses to come to agreements with Congress is a bad president.

And a Congress that refuses to negotiate within itself and go through the proper procedures to try and repeal a law is a bad Congress.  Is it really news to you that our entire government is shit?

When the Founding Fathers created the blueprints for this nation, they made no secret of the fact that they, overwhelmingly, believed anyone given power in government would eventually be corrupted by it. With these views in mind, they established a system of checks and balances to limit the power of each branch of government.

In our system all sides must reach a compromise. It is not a monarchy. The House is willing to negotiate with the Senate. They are not unwilling to negotiate. It's the other way around. The Senate is flatly unwilling to negotiate with the House. This is wrong. Our system of government is specifically framed for the Senate and House to negotiate with each other to get things done.

Gridlock happened and the government shut down due to lack of funding. No one pressed the "kill switch". Nothing is being held at ransom. The system demands that all sides negotiate on a funding bill and the Senate and the President are flatly refusing to participate.

By total refusal to negotiate, Obama and team are disgracing our system of government.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on October 08, 2013, 03:10:53 PM
A president who refuses to come to agreements with Congress is a bad president.

Seriously, are you trolling?

The president has negotiated the Obamacare bill through Congress which was agreed upon and accepted. He even won an election with Obamacare being one of the key points of his policy.

The security of your country is being held to ransom by a few elected officials (who do not represent the majority of your electorate) over an issue which the American public have voted for and agreed upon.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 03:14:00 PM
A president who refuses to come to agreements with Congress is a bad president.

Seriously, are you trolling?

The president has negotiated the Obamacare bill through Congress which was agreed upon and accepted. He even won an election with Obamacare being one of the key points of his policy.

The security of your country is being held to ransom by a few elected officials (who do not represent the majority of your electorate) over an issue which the American public have voted for and agreed upon.

Incorrect. It is not ransom to vote "No" on spending bills and debt-increase bills you believe to be improper. That's called doing what you were elected for.

When we elect our congressmen we expect that they will vote their platforms, and when gridlock occurs, they will follow the established system of negotiation and compromise - a fundamental part of government.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 08, 2013, 03:18:16 PM
It is ransom for a speaker of the house not to hold a vote to reopen the government. Especially when it is likely to pass. That is a direct contravention of the will of the house and by proxy, the American people.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 08, 2013, 03:19:14 PM
A president who refuses to come to agreements with Congress is a bad president.

Seriously, are you trolling?

The president has negotiated the Obamacare bill through Congress which was agreed upon and accepted. He even won an election with Obamacare being one of the key points of his policy.

The security of your country is being held to ransom by a few elected officials (who do not represent the majority of your electorate) over an issue which the American public have voted for and agreed upon.

Incorrect. It is not ransom to vote "No" on spending bills and debt-increase bills you believe to be improper.

Have you been hypnotized?

The republicans aren't just voting no. The ACA has passed all votes and was ruled constitutional and now that the tea partier's can't do anything about it they are attempting to force it away by holding the government hostage. You can understand this Tom. My child understands it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on October 08, 2013, 03:22:28 PM
A president who refuses to come to agreements with Congress is a bad president.

Seriously, are you trolling?

The president has negotiated the Obamacare bill through Congress which was agreed upon and accepted. He even won an election with Obamacare being one of the key points of his policy.

The security of your country is being held to ransom by a few elected officials (who do not represent the majority of your electorate) over an issue which the American public have voted for and agreed upon.

Incorrect. It is not ransom to vote "No" on a spending bill you believe to be improper.

So the will of the people should be disregarded by a few elected officials that don't represent the majority?

What if some of those officials were corrupt?

Hopefully out of all this hullabaloo the world will take note and start to lose trust in the dollar as the worlds currency.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 08, 2013, 03:35:33 PM
A president who refuses to come to agreements with Congress is a bad president.

And a Congress that refuses to negotiate within itself and go through the proper procedures to try and repeal a law is a bad Congress.  Is it really news to you that our entire government is shit?

When the Founding Fathers created the blueprints for this nation, they made no secret of the fact that they, overwhelmingly, believed anyone given power in government would eventually be corrupted by it. With these views in mind, they established a system of checks and balances to limit the power of each branch of government.

In our system all sides must reach a compromise. It is not a monarchy. The House is willing to negotiate with the Senate. They are not unwilling to negotiate. It's the other way around. The Senate is flatly unwilling to negotiate with the House. This is wrong. Our system of government is specifically framed for the Senate and House to negotiate with each other to get things done.

Gridlock happened and the government shut down due to lack of funding. No one pressed the "kill switch". Nothing is being held at ransom. The system demands that all sides negotiate on a funding bill and the Senate and the President are flatly refusing to participate.

By total refusal to negotiate, Obama and team are disgracing our system of government.

They did negotiate.  They put the bill up for a vote, and it passed into law.  That was the negotiation.  Any further negotiation should be done by modifying or repealing it, not withholding the budget until the ACA is defunded to the point of it being useless.  That's not negotiation, that's making a demand that the other side won't agree to.

Now, I'm not saying the democrats aren't guilty as well.  They're enabling this all to happen by refusing to give in.  Don't mistake this as a potential compromise, though, it's one side demanding something, and refusing to allow the bill up for vote until it's agreed to.  A deal under duress isn't a compromise, it's effectively blackmail, ransoming.



Incorrect. It is not ransom to vote "No" on spending bills and debt-increase bills you believe to be improper. That's called doing what you were elected for.

When we elect our congressmen we expect that they will vote their platforms, and when gridlock occurs, they will follow the established system of negotiation and compromise - a fundamental part of government.
.

Really?  They put it up for a vote?  As I recall this situation, the entire problem is that it ISN'T getting put up for a vote.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 03:43:38 PM
A president who refuses to come to agreements with Congress is a bad president.

Seriously, are you trolling?

The president has negotiated the Obamacare bill through Congress which was agreed upon and accepted. He even won an election with Obamacare being one of the key points of his policy.

The security of your country is being held to ransom by a few elected officials (who do not represent the majority of your electorate) over an issue which the American public have voted for and agreed upon.

Incorrect. It is not ransom to vote "No" on spending bills and debt-increase bills you believe to be improper.

Have you been hypnotized?

The republicans aren't just voting no. The ACA has passed all votes and was ruled constitutional and now that the tea partier's can't do anything about it they are attempting to force it away by holding the government hostage. You can understand this Tom. My child could understand it.

Being constitutional or lawful does not mean that it must be financed by the public. Poking your own eye out with a stick is "lawful", but that does not mean the public should  finance your sticks. Abortion is "constitutional" and "legal," but that does not mean the public should fund abortions.

During yearly federal budget negotiations all items on the budget are discussed. In this case, Obamacare has been getting a lot of bad press since its introduction, about the consequences of the bill on the economy. Businesses now need to pay large mandates, even if they do not have employees on the program. This means that they will be cutting jobs and hiring more temporary workers. Individuals are forced to pay penalties if they do not purchase Obamacare. Doctors are obligated to treat patients and get below-market rates for their services. When you purchase a real estate property, 2% will be going to the ACA. By allowing pre-existing conditions, American insurance companies are put in the absurd forced position of insuring a house which is already on fire. The criticisms against Obamacare are widespread and compounding.

The House has every right to cut Obamacare from the federal budget if it is at odds with their constituents. That's what they were elected for.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 03:46:27 PM
So the will of the people should be disregarded by a few elected officials that don't represent the majority?

The will of the people elected the GOP into the House. They are voting how they were elected to vote.

Really?  They put it up for a vote?  As I recall this situation, the entire problem is that it ISN'T getting put up for a vote.

You don't know how voting in the House works. The bill must first be supported by the majority of the majority to be put for a vote. When Obama has signatures from the House majority, he can present it to the Speaker.

Counting the number of Republicans who make public statements to the effect that they want the government shutdown to be over means nothing.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 08, 2013, 03:55:13 PM
The huffington post counted the number of republicans who would pass the budget motion without changes or concessions and when combined with the Dem. votes, it was enough to pass.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Space Cowgirl on October 08, 2013, 04:01:26 PM
Tom, do you know where it says that this bill needs to be supported by a majority of the majority before it can be voted on?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 08, 2013, 04:03:27 PM
Really?  They put it up for a vote?  As I recall this situation, the entire problem is that it ISN'T getting put up for a vote.

You don't know how voting in the House works. The bill must first be supported by the majority of the majority to be put for a vote. When Obama has signatures from the House majority, he can present it to the Speaker.

Counting the number of Republicans who make public statements to the effect that they "want the government shutdown to be over" means nothing.

So again, they're not voting no, they're just refusing to allow it up for a vote.  Your wording implies that they have to be in favor of the bill, they don't, they just have to agree to have it voted on.

More to the point, the Hastert Rule is in no way binding.  Boehner could put it up for a vote at any time if he wanted, there is no law requiring he have the majority of the majority agreeing to it, literally nothing that says this MUST be the case.  He's ignored it multiple times since he came into his role as speaker, in fact!

The bill WILL pass if he puts it up, and further negotiations can be had after the shutdown is lifted.  Except, no, he won't because he and his team feel they haven't gotten anything out of this yet.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 04:05:26 PM
The huffington post counted the number of republicans who would pass the budget motion without changes or concessions and when combined with the Dem. votes, it was enough to pass.

Those counts mean nothing without signatures. Several of the Republicans counted on those news counts have re-backed on their position, or claim they were were misquoted. The House can't vote without signatures of 218 members.

We read from a thehill.com article (http://):


When Obama has these signatures he can present it to the House to have the bill voted on.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 08, 2013, 04:11:39 PM
GOP negotiation strategy:

Take something someone else has.
Give it back only if they give you something.
Complain about fairness if they don't agree.


See Tom you can call it fair negotiations all you want but it's really not.  ACA was already funded and the government's funding is something both sides want.  So the GOP is saying that if Obama wants to keep the ACA, he must give them something.  This is akin to taking someone's child and saying "if you want her back, give us money".
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Junker on October 08, 2013, 04:12:11 PM
ITT:  False equivalences.  Lots of them.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 04:24:17 PM
GOP negotiation strategy:

Take something someone else has.
Give it back only if they give you something.
Complain about fairness if they don't agree.


See Tom you can call it fair negotiations all you want but it's really not.  ACA was already funded and the government's funding is something both sides want.  So the GOP is saying that if Obama wants to keep the ACA, he must give them something.  This is akin to taking someone's child and saying "if you want her back, give us money".

Incorrect analogy. The House Republicans didn't take anything. They aren't holding anything at ransom. They voted NO on Obama's careless federal spending bill. If Obama wants them to vote YES on his bills, he needs to be willing to compromise on government spending. This is how our government's system of checks and balances work.

The government wasn't shut down by anyone. It shut itself down when no one could agree on a funding bill.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 08, 2013, 04:28:31 PM
GOP negotiation strategy:

Take something someone else has.
Give it back only if they give you something.
Complain about fairness if they don't agree.


See Tom you can call it fair negotiations all you want but it's really not.  ACA was already funded and the government's funding is something both sides want.  So the GOP is saying that if Obama wants to keep the ACA, he must give them something.  This is akin to taking someone's child and saying "if you want her back, give us money".

Incorrect analogy. The House Republicans didn't take anything. They aren't holding anything at ransom. They voted NO on Obama's careless spending bill. If Obama wants them to vote YES on his bills, he needs to be willing to compromise. This is how our government's system of checks and balances work.

The government wasn't shut down by anyone. It shut itself down when no one could agree on a funding bill.
And, I ask you, what currently requires funding?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 08, 2013, 04:32:52 PM
Incorrect analogy. The House Republicans didn't take anything. They aren't holding anything at ransom. They voted NO on Obama's careless spending bill. If Obama wants them to vote YES on his bills, he needs to be willing to compromise. This is how government works.

Once again, they didn't vote no on anything, that's the problem.  The speaker is refusing to put it up for a vote because of a tradition, one that's already been ignored multiple times by the same speaker with the latest incident detailing that, by his own admission-

"It was never a rule to begin with."
-John Boehner, April 9th, 2013
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 04:36:31 PM
And, I ask you, what currently requires funding?

Everything presently shut down requires funding, such as the whole of NASA. All government research has come to a stop. The national parks are closed, as well as museums. The CDC has been shuttered, as well as large parts of the FDA. The federal courts will run out of on-hand money soon. The government is in a minimal state of operation, with only critical services such as law enforcement, the troops, and the prisons.

ACA may have been partially funded, but the funding is still coming out of the government's bottom line. It is still part of the federal budget, and its merits are to be voted on as a continuing part of the budget.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 04:46:28 PM
Once again, they didn't vote no on anything, that's the problem.  The speaker is refusing to put it up for a vote because of a tradition, one that's already been ignored multiple times by the same speaker with the latest incident detailing that, by his own admission-

"It was never a rule to begin with."
-John Boehner, April 9th, 2013

If they want a bill put up for a vote on the house floor they need to get the signatures. No signatures, no vote. That's how its been in the House for a long time.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 08, 2013, 04:48:30 PM
And, I ask you, what currently requires funding?

Everything presently shut down requires funding, such as the whole of NASA. All government research has come to a stop. The national parks are closed, as well as museums. The CDC has been shuttered, as well as large parts of the FDA. The federal courts will run out of on-hand money soon. The government is in a minimal state of operation, with only critical services such as law enforcement, the troops, and the prisons.

ACA may have been partially funded, but the funding is still coming out of the government's bottom line. It is still part of the federal budget, and its merits are to be voted on as a continuing part of the budget.
SO!
You're suggesting that a funding bill to keep the government funded should actually be a full budget?

Once again, they didn't vote no on anything, that's the problem.  The speaker is refusing to put it up for a vote because of a tradition, one that's already been ignored multiple times by the same speaker with the latest incident detailing that, by his own admission-

"It was never a rule to begin with."
-John Boehner, April 9th, 2013

If they want a bill put up for a vote on the house floor they need to get the signatures. No signatures, no vote.
Why?  What law requires them to have signatures of promises on a vote before they can vote on something?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 04:53:55 PM
SO!
You're suggesting that a funding bill to keep the government funded should actually be a full budget?

It doesn't have to be a full budget, but that's what is getting voted on.

Quote
Why?  What law requires them to have signatures of promises on a vote before they can vote on something?

It's not the law. It's the procedure of the House. The Senate has similar procedures. Obama does not get to change around the way the House works at a whim. He needs to gain support of the House members for his cause like everyone else.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 08, 2013, 05:11:35 PM
Once again, they didn't vote no on anything, that's the problem.  The speaker is refusing to put it up for a vote because of a tradition, one that's already been ignored multiple times by the same speaker with the latest incident detailing that, by his own admission-

"It was never a rule to begin with."
-John Boehner, April 9th, 2013

If they want a bill put up for a vote on the house floor they need to get the signatures. No signatures, no vote. That's how its been in the House for a long time.

So they did not vote "no" to the Bill.  They refused to vote.  You have been saying that they voted "no".

 
They voted NO on Obama's careless federal spending bill.

They are refusing to vote until they get their way.  This is childish behavior that is going to cost the Americans billions of dollars they do not have.  If they were confident in their mandate, surely they would vote on the bill and watch it go down in a blaze, no?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 08, 2013, 05:26:21 PM
SO!
You're suggesting that a funding bill to keep the government funded should actually be a full budget?

It doesn't have to be a full budget, but that's what is getting voted on.
But you are.  You're suggesting that they vote on future budgetary items, not current ones.

Quote
Quote
Why?  What law requires them to have signatures of promises on a vote before they can vote on something?

It's not the law. It's the procedure of the House. The Senate has similar procedures. Obama does not get to change around the way the House works at a whim. He needs to gain support of the House members for his cause like everyone else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastert_Rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hastert_Rule)

It's not a procedure of the house but of the house majority leader.  And used only by house republicans.
Quote
However, the Hastert Rule is an informal rule and the Speaker is not bound by it; he/she may break it at their discretion. Speakers have at times broken the Hastert Rule and allowed votes to be scheduled on legislation that lacked majority support within the Speakers own party.

So it's not a procedure, it's at the discretion of one person.

Also:
http://www.mediaite.com/online/former-speaker-hastert-negates-hastert-rule-it-never-really-existed/ (http://www.mediaite.com/online/former-speaker-hastert-negates-hastert-rule-it-never-really-existed/)

So, why won't he bring it up for vote again?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 08, 2013, 05:31:44 PM
Once again, they didn't vote no on anything, that's the problem.  The speaker is refusing to put it up for a vote because of a tradition, one that's already been ignored multiple times by the same speaker with the latest incident detailing that, by his own admission-

"It was never a rule to begin with."
-John Boehner, April 9th, 2013

If they want a bill put up for a vote on the house floor they need to get the signatures. No signatures, no vote. That's how its been in the House for a long time.

A bit less than twenty years.  And once again, he's ignored it himself on four separate occasions in fewer years.  This is by no means a requirement, Boehner is just making an ass of himself and his party. 

To what you were saying before, that Republicans are voting no on a bill that isn't up for vote.  This literally has no basis in reality.  They haven't voted on a thing because Boehner refuses, because he knows full well it will pass as is.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 06:29:32 PM
I looked up this Obamacare "law" and it turns out that not a single Republican from the House even voted for it!

House passes health-care reform bill without Republican votes (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/21/AR2010032100943.html)


http://www.indystar.com/article/20131008/OPINION03/310080072/Obamacare-not-settled-law- (http://www.indystar.com/article/20131008/OPINION03/310080072/Obamacare-not-settled-law-)

Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 08, 2013, 06:32:22 PM
I looked up this Obamacare "law" and it turns out that not a single Republican from the House even voted for it!

House passes health-care reform bill without Republican votes (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/21/AR2010032100943.html)

    "The House voted 219 to 212 to approve the measure, with every Republican voting no. The measure now awaits President Obama's signature. In remarks Sunday night, he said that the vote "proved that we are still capable of doing big things. We proved that this government -- a government of the people and by the people -- still works for the people."

http://www.indystar.com/article/20131008/OPINION03/310080072/Obamacare-not-settled-law- (http://www.indystar.com/article/20131008/OPINION03/310080072/Obamacare-not-settled-law-)

    "The Affordable Care Act is not settled law because the public remains deeply divided over it: More than half of Americans are opposed. But even more critically, congressional Republicans have withheld their stamp of approval. Many Republican lawmakers refuse even to call it a law; they keep referring to it as a “bill.”

    Republicans offer several explanations for their rejection of the act’s validity. Most often, they note that the law was passed entirely with Democratic votes. This is in contrast to other major legislation, including the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which was enacted with overwhelming bipartisan support and thus became settled much more quickly.

    Republicans also cite the unusual procedures used to pass the health-care act — most notably, the budget reconciliation process that avoided a filibuster while moving the final legislation through the Senate. This tactic left many Senate Republicans feeling cheated."

Entirely irrelevant, it passed and in spite of many attempts hasn't been repealed or deemed unconstitutional.  It doesn't matter who voted for it, only that enough people voted for it that it passed and not enough people voted for it to be repealed.

Edit:  Oh, and the important part, it was signed into law by the President of the United States.  Together with it's passage through Congress and survival of the Supreme Court, making it officially a law.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 08, 2013, 06:48:21 PM
I looked up this Obamacare "law" and it turns out that not a single Republican from the House even voted for it!

House passes health-care reform bill without Republican votes (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/21/AR2010032100943.html)

    "The House voted 219 to 212 to approve the measure, with every Republican voting no. The measure now awaits President Obama's signature. In remarks Sunday night, he said that the vote "proved that we are still capable of doing big things. We proved that this government -- a government of the people and by the people -- still works for the people."

http://www.indystar.com/article/20131008/OPINION03/310080072/Obamacare-not-settled-law- (http://www.indystar.com/article/20131008/OPINION03/310080072/Obamacare-not-settled-law-)

    "The Affordable Care Act is not settled law because the public remains deeply divided over it: More than half of Americans are opposed. But even more critically, congressional Republicans have withheld their stamp of approval. Many Republican lawmakers refuse even to call it a law; they keep referring to it as a “bill.”

    Republicans offer several explanations for their rejection of the act’s validity. Most often, they note that the law was passed entirely with Democratic votes. This is in contrast to other major legislation, including the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which was enacted with overwhelming bipartisan support and thus became settled much more quickly.

    Republicans also cite the unusual procedures used to pass the health-care act — most notably, the budget reconciliation process that avoided a filibuster while moving the final legislation through the Senate. This tactic left many Senate Republicans feeling cheated."
And?
Clearly the American people agree with what happened as the senators who did this were not removed from office and Obama himself won a second term.

Are you suggesting that what the American People voted for is not what we want?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 06:50:50 PM
They are refusing to vote until they get their way.  This is childish behavior that is going to cost the Americans billions of dollars they do not have.  If they were confident in their mandate, surely they would vote on the bill and watch it go down in a blaze, no?

Why would they do that? It's their house and their rules. No one gets the privilege of running their bill on the floor over and over until it gets the result desired. That's absurd.

The House Republicans are demanding that the president negotiates with them on these matters, and he must negotiate. They have given their list of offers and it is now Obama's time to sit down and come to a compromise.

Entirely irrelevant, it passed and in spite of many attempts hasn't been repealed or deemed unconstitutional.  It doesn't matter who voted for it, only that enough people voted for it that it passed and not enough people voted for it to be repealed.

Edit:  Oh, and the important part, it was signed into law by the President of the United States.  Together with it's passage through Congress and survival of the Supreme Court, making it officially a law.

I'm simply showing that the Republicans are totally in the right to fight this. It was passed in an unusual way which did not require the House majority. It was passed via reconciliation.

Many believe it was unconstitutional for them to do this. Micheal E. Hammond, former General Counsel of the U.S. Senate Steering Committee says "Obamacare cannot be passed through Reconcilliation." (http://www.redstate.com/dan_perrin/2010/02/22/obamacare-cannot-be-passed-through-reconciliation/)
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 08, 2013, 06:59:24 PM
They are refusing to vote until they get their way.  This is childish behavior that is going to cost the Americans billions of dollars they do not have.  If they were confident in their mandate, surely they would vote on the bill and watch it go down in a blaze, no?

Why would they do that? It's their house and their rules. No one gets the privilege of running their bill on the floor over and over until it get the result desired. That's absurd.
Someone does.  The House Republicans kept running their bill on the floor over and over again in the hopes of it passing.  42 was the last count. 
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 06:59:41 PM
And?
Clearly the American people agree with what happened as the senators who did this were not removed from office and Obama himself won a second term.

Are you suggesting that what the American People voted for is not what we want?

Just because no one was impeached, it does not make it right. Obama and the Democrats used a shady tactic when pushing Obamacare through via reconciliation. It is not meant for that type of legislation.

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/02/28/conrad-reconciliation-wont-work-for-obamacare/ (http://hotair.com/archives/2010/02/28/conrad-reconciliation-wont-work-for-obamacare/)

Quote
Senator Kent Conrad (D-ND), who runs the committee that would have to run a reconciliation push, says that the budgetary process can’t be used for ObamaCare.  It would only address the actual budgetary issues, which leaves a lot off the table.  The Budget Committee chair told CBS’ Face the Nation audience that reconciliation wasn’t designed for this purpose, nor is it appropriate for such sweeping legislation

    "…reconciliation cannot be used to pass comprehensive health care reform. It won’t work. It won’t work because it was never designed for that kind of significant legislation. It was designed for deficit reduction… The major package of health care reform cannot move through the reconciliation process. It will not work… It will not work because of the Byrd rule which says anything that doesn’t score for budget purposes has to be eliminated. That would eliminate all the delivery system reform, all the insurance market reform, all of those things the experts tell us are really the most important parts of this bill. The only possible role that I can see for reconciliation would be make modest changes in the major package to improve affordability, to deal with what share of Medicaid expansion the federal government pays, those kinds of issues, which is the traditional role for reconciliation in health care.”
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 08, 2013, 07:36:36 PM
Entirely irrelevant, it passed and in spite of many attempts hasn't been repealed or deemed unconstitutional.  It doesn't matter who voted for it, only that enough people voted for it that it passed and not enough people voted for it to be repealed.

Edit:  Oh, and the important part, it was signed into law by the President of the United States.  Together with it's passage through Congress and survival of the Supreme Court, making it officially a law.

I'm simply showing that the Republicans are totally in the right to fight this. It was passed in an unusual way which did not require the House majority. It was passed via Reconciliation.

Many believe it was unconstitutional for them to do this. Micheal E. Hammond, former General Counsel of the U.S. Senate Steering Committee says "Obamacare cannot be passed through Reconcilliation." (http://www.redstate.com/dan_perrin/2010/02/22/obamacare-cannot-be-passed-through-reconciliation/)

The Republicans do indeed have every right to fight Obamacare, and I sincerely hope they succeed in repealing the Individual Mandate - if not the entire thing.  However, they're not in the right to fight this by the methods they are currently using.  You don't refuse to put up a bill for vote, and consequently shut down major portions of the government and furlough the workers, to defund a program that is only part of the funding bill and currently entirely legal.  You remove funding as it's own issue or you try and repeal it again.

Alternatively, they could appeal to the Supreme Court that it wasn't passed in a constitutional manner, since as far as I'm aware the ruling only stands on the contents of the bill and not how it was passed.  Although it would appear to me that the ACA itself was not passed by reconciliation, and indeed couldn't be as it refers to a change in existing law.  An amendment to the ACA was passed via reconciliation a week after the ACA had already passed, however, if that's what you're referring to.

Either way, it's currently a law until it's either repealed by vote of Congress or the Supreme Court rules it unconstitutional in some way.  Refusing to pass a bill that funds many things, although it included Obamacare, is reckless and a terrible way to go about it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Saddam Hussein on October 08, 2013, 07:40:34 PM
I highly doubt the Supreme Court would be willing to take another look at the ACA.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 08, 2013, 07:49:25 PM
You're probably right, Saddam, but it is potentially a way to remove the law.  Not that it will work, I sincerely doubt much of anything will, but it's an option if they can manage to get the Justices to consider it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 08:37:46 PM
Actually, the Supreme Court was about to strike down Obamacare but the Supreme Court Justice John Roberts, who was about to write his decision to declare Obamacare unconstitutional as an abuse of power under the Commerce Clause, mysteriously switched views to uphold health care law (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162-57464549/roberts-switched-views-to-uphold-health-care-law/).

Quote
After the historic oral arguments in March, the two knowledgeable sources said, Roberts and the four conservatives were poised to strike down at least the individual mandate. There were other issues being argued - severability and the Medicaid extension - but the mandate was the ballgame.

It required individuals to buy insurance or pay a penalty. Congress had never before in the history of the nation ordered Americans to buy a product from a private company as part of its broad powers to regulate commerce. Opponents argued that the law exceeded Congress' power under the Constitution, and an Atlanta-based federal appeals court agreed.

The Atlanta-based federal appeals court said Congress didn't have that kind of expansive power, and it struck down the mandate as unconstitutional.

On this point - Congress' commerce power - Roberts agreed. In the court's private conference immediately after the arguments, he was aligned with the four conservatives to strike down the mandate.

Quote
Roberts wrote in the section of his opinion analyzing the Commerce Clause:

"Accepting the government's theory would give Congress the same license to regulate what we do not do, fundamentally changing the relation between the citizen and the federal government."

See the video in the above link.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 08, 2013, 08:41:49 PM
They are refusing to vote until they get their way.  This is childish behavior that is going to cost the Americans billions of dollars they do not have.  If they were confident in their mandate, surely they would vote on the bill and watch it go down in a blaze, no?

Why would they do that? It's their house and their rules. No one gets the privilege of running their bill on the floor over and over until it get the result desired. That's absurd.
Someone does.  The House Republicans kept running their bill on the floor over and over again in the hopes of it passing.  42 was the last count.

Cmon Tom.  Look at what you wrote, look at what Lordave wrote.  By your own standard the republicans are using dirty tactics and the only reason you approve is because you align with them idealogically. 
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 08:48:17 PM
Cmon Tom.  Look at what you wrote, look at what Lordave wrote.  By your own standard the republicans are using dirty tactics and the only reason you approve is because you align with them idealogically.

The House Democrats already have a discharge petition (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2013/10/04/dems-move-to-force-republicans-to-reopen-the-government/) in play at the House which funds the Federal Government with Obamacare intact. Not one House Republican has signed it.

If the votes were there, this bill would pass through to the floor. It has been four days and no progress has been made. Obama's demand to "call a vote" is unnecessary. A bill to fund the government with Obamacare intact is already there.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 08, 2013, 09:02:07 PM
Way to not address anything I said.  You have a real future in this politicking thing. My point still stands.  The Republicans are using dirty tactics because they have not been able to get their way. Obama is not a tyrant for opposing them, they are being unreasonable for all the really good reasons set out in this thread.  Obama negotiated every step of the way, and the law has withstood every test, but just because the Republicans think they are right they are playing a game of brinksmanship.  Yes it's their right, blah, blah, blah, but does that mean this is the most appropriate action?  No it does not.  Anyway, I only expect you to spout off about what you think is right and your sense of entitlement, but maybe one day you will go back, read this thread and think, "Hey I used to be really close-minded."
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 09:09:05 PM
A path to a clean CR is already there in the House with the discharge petition.

King Won’t Sign Discharge Petition for ‘Clean’ CR (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/360491/king-wont-sign-discharge-petition-clean-cr-andrew-stiles)

Barletta Backs Off Clean CR; Dent Says No to Discharge Petition (http://www.politicspa.com/barletta-backs-off-clean-cr-dent-says-no-to-discharge-petition/51820/)

Republicans Needed for Discharge Petition May Not Sign (http://guardianlv.com/2013/10/republicans-needed-for-discharge-petition-may-not-sign/)

If the House moderates who say they’ll vote for a clean CR would just sign the Democrats’ discharge petition, then the government would reopen and Democrats won’t have to give up anything to the tea people.

Peter King, the most vocal of the moderates who have expressed an interest in a a clean CR, has refused to sign the petition. He said that President Obama has an obligation to get involved and negotiate with Republicans. See the video in the first link.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 08, 2013, 09:23:15 PM
Cmon Tom.  Look at what you wrote, look at what Lordave wrote.  By your own standard the republicans are using dirty tactics and the only reason you approve is because you align with them idealogically.

The House Democrats already have a discharge petition (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2013/10/04/dems-move-to-force-republicans-to-reopen-the-government/) in play at the House which funds the Federal Government with Obamacare intact. Not one House Republican has signed it.

If the votes were there, this bill would pass through to the floor. It has been four days and no progress has been made. Obama's demand to "call a vote" is unnecessary. A bill to fund the government with Obamacare intact is already there.

Yep, that's one way to do it, and I guarantee if this goes on for more then a month or two it will be resolved in a similar way.  Or Boehner could just expedite the process by letting it up for a vote to go ahead and pass it.

Thanks for not addressing a single point I've made in response to you, by the way.  About how the Hastert Rule is in no way binding, about how the Republicans haven't voted no because Boehner won't allow it up for a vote, and about how Obamacare wasn't passed into law by reconciliation.  Rama Set's right, never admit you're wrong and always jump away from topics you're being soundly beaten at.  A great politician if there ever was one.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 08, 2013, 10:32:27 PM
Yep, that's one way to do it, and I guarantee if this goes on for more then a month or two it will be resolved in a similar way.  Or Boehner could just expedite the process by letting it up for a vote to go ahead and pass it.

The criticism that there are votes in the House for a clean CR, but members are being prevented from voting, is invalid. If this were so, this discharge petition would have the signatures it needs.

Quote
Thanks for not addressing a single point I've made in response to you, by the way.  About how the Hastert Rule is in no way binding,

Where did I say it was binding? It's simply the procedure of the House. Not any bill can just be put up for a vote. It needs to have the signatures before it can be put up for a vote on the floor.

Quote
about how the Republicans haven't voted no because Boehner won't allow it up for a vote

But the bill is allowed for a vote. No one is disallowing it. Once it has the signatures it needs it can be put for a vote.

No one is going to give it special treatment when there are already bills in the House like it and the people needed are not signing them. It needs to be put to a vote through the normal government process. Your concept of how the House works is entirely backwards. No one is putting a stop to this bill. At any time a House Republican can add his signature to a Clean CR the House Democrats are pushing. Once it gets the required signatures, it will see floor time.

Quote
and about how Obamacare wasn't passed into law by reconciliation.

It says right here that it was passed via reconciliation:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20131008/OPINION03/310080072/Obamacare-not-settled-law- (http://www.indystar.com/article/20131008/OPINION03/310080072/Obamacare-not-settled-law-)

Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 09, 2013, 12:01:03 AM
Yep, that's one way to do it, and I guarantee if this goes on for more then a month or two it will be resolved in a similar way.  Or Boehner could just expedite the process by letting it up for a vote to go ahead and pass it.

The criticism that there are votes in the House for a clean CR, but members are being prevented from voting, is invalid. If this were so, this discharge petition would have the signatures it needs.
Or, some members of the House are hesitant about signing it for one reason or another, but would for it should the clean bill be put up for vote by the speaker.

Thanks for not addressing a single point I've made in response to you, by the way.  About how the Hastert Rule is in no way binding,

Where did I say it was binding? It's simply the procedure of the House. Not any bill can just be put up for a vote. It needs to have signatures of the majority before it can be put up for a vote, just like the discharge petition does.
And for the third time, any bill can be put up for a vote.  It's at the discretion of the speaker.  Now, Boehner won't allow it because it doesn't have the signatures, but again, that's entirely his discretion.  He could put it up as soon as possible if he wanted, and I'll say again, he's done this multiple times in the past.  You seem to be under the impression that the Hastert Rule has anything to do with whether Boehner is able to put it up for a vote, it doesn't.

about how the Republicans haven't voted no because Boehner won't allow it up for a vote

But the bill is allowed for a vote. No one is disallowing it. Once it has the signatures it needs it can be put for a vote.

No one is going to give it special treatment when there are already bills in the House like it and the majority are not signing them. It needs to be put to a vote through the normal government process. Your concept of how the House works is entirely backwards. No one is putting a stop to this bill. At any time a House Republican can add his signature to a Clean CR the House Democrats are pushing. Once it gets the majority, it will see floor time.
So, to be clear, this bill doesn't deserve special treatment even though not doing so threatens the economic and consequently physical wellbeing of several hundred thousand people and their families, but the Violence Against Women Act does?  Because Boehner refuses to put this up for a vote without the Hastert Rule being satisfied, but he had no problem going against significant criticism to put the Violence Against Women Act up for vote without the majority of his party.

And yes, Boehner is holding the bill from being voted on without having to go through a minimum month long process.  The House Democrats are currently attempting to get enough signatures and exploiting loopholes all the way to bypass the month waiting period, so like I said, I fully expect something similar to what you've presented to be the end resolution of this soon.  That by no means mean Boehner isn't making an ass out of himself by forcing a wait and said resolution, however.


and about how Obamacare wasn't passed into law by reconciliation.

It says right here that it was passed via reconciliation:

http://www.indystar.com/article/20131008/OPINION03/310080072/Obamacare-not-settled-law- (http://www.indystar.com/article/20131008/OPINION03/310080072/Obamacare-not-settled-law-)

"Republicans also cite the unusual procedures used to pass the health-care act — most notably, the budget reconciliation process (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/23/AR2010032303957.html) that avoided a filibuster while moving the final legislation through the Senate. This tactic left many Senate Republicans feeling cheated"

Perhaps a bit more research is in order before you make assertions, Tom, since you don't seem to understand what a reconciliation is.  Wikipedia should be sufficient.

A reconciliation bill is a bill containing changes in law recommended pursuant to reconciliation instructions in a budget resolution. If the instructions pertain to only one committee in a chamber, that committee reports the reconciliation bill. If the instructions pertain to more than one committee, the House Budget Committee reports an omnibus reconciliation bill, but it may not make substantive changes in the recommendations of the other committees.
OR
A reconciliation instruction is a provision in a budget resolution directing one or more committees to submit legislation changing existing law in order to bring spending, revenues, or the debt ceiling into conformity with the budget resolution. The instructions specify the committees to which they apply, indicate the appropriate dollar changes to be achieved, and usually provide a deadline by which the legislation is to be reported or submitted.

Now, see how these both amazingly refer to editing an existing law?  Lets check the link embedded in the part of the article where you got your quote.  Don't worry, I put it in, either click the link in your quote box or check the part of the article you got it from.

Quote from: Washington Post
Hours after President Obama signed sweeping health-care legislation into law Tuesday, the Senate began a debate on another piece of the package, giving Republicans one last chance to alter the bill before it begins to transform insurance coverage for millions of Americans.
Huh, right there in the very first paragraph it states that the reconciliation started after the ACA was signed into law, fitting the definitions given.  Utterly shocking.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 12:22:40 AM
Pyrolizard, yes, a reconciliation is a change to an existing law, but that existing law was a Military Housing Bill.

For a more complete story read How Obamacare Became the “Law of the Land” (http://www.crawfordbroadcasting.com/Vecchio_Archives/How%20Obamacare%20Became%20Law.pdf)

Quote
So how did Obamacare become a law?  It’s actually pretty interesting.  If you
recall, the Democrats in the House weren’t able to pass their version of a
Healthcare law.  Because all revenue bills have to originate in the House of
Representatives, the Senate found a bill that met those qualifications: HR3590, a
military housing bill.  They took out essentially all of the wording of it, and turned
it into the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, Obamacare.  It gets better.
 
The Senate at that time had 60 Democrats, just enough to pass Obamacare.  After
the bill passed the Senate tho, Democrat Senator Ted Kennedy died.  In his place,
Massachusetts elected Republican Scott Brown.  That meant that, if the House
made any changes to the bill, the Senate wouldn’t have the necessary number of
votes to pass the corrected bill, since they knew no Republicans would vote for
Obamacare.  So they made a deal with the Democrat‐controlled House of
Representatives:  the House would pass the Senate bill without any changes, IF
the Senate agreed to pass a separate bill by the House that made changes to the
Senate version of Obamacare.  This second bill was called the Reconciliation Act
of 2010.  It made a bunch of detail changes, and added some things.  So the
House passed PPACA, the Senate bill, as well as their Reconciliation Act.  So now
PPACA was ready for the President to sign, but the Senate still needed to pass the
Reconciliation Act from the House.  Confused yet?
 
Now, remember that the Senate only had 59 votes to pass the Reconciliation Act
since Republican Scott Brown replaced Democrat Ted Kennedy.  In order to pass
the Reconciliation Act, therefore, the Democrats in the Senate decided to change
the rules.  They declared that they could use the “Reconciliation Rule”—this is a
different “reconciliation” than the House bill now.  This rule was only used for
budget item approval, so that budget items could be passed with only 51 votes in
the Senate, not the usual 60.  This rule was never intended to be used for
legislation of the magnitude of Obamacare.  Too bad… they used it anyway.  So
then both of the “Acts” passed both houses of Congress and were then signed by
President Obama.  All done by Democrats without a single Republican vote in
favor of it.  To quote Democrat Rep. Alcee Hastings of the House Rules Committee
during the bill process:  “We’re making up the rules as we go along”.  They
certainly couldn’t have made this law without it.  How do you feel about that?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 09, 2013, 12:45:05 AM
Pyrolizard, yes, a reconciliation is a change to an existing law, but that existing law was a Military Housing Bill with injected health care language, which they skirted past the House through equally shady measures.

For a more complete story read How Obamacare Became the “Lawofthe Land” (http://www.crawfordbroadcasting.com/Vecchio_Archives/How%20Obamacare%20Became%20Law.pdf)

Quote
Snip Snip

In essence Obamacare was passed without the GOP being able to vote on it.
But Tom!  They compromised to pass the bill, that's what you're so fond of, right?  Compromise?  At any rate, it was passed entirely legitimately, there is no law against rewording a bill to do something else so long as the revision is passed by both parts of Congress.  There's also no law against requesting that your counterparts in the other portion of Congress pass a bill, and offering a reconciliation after the fact to make sure as many people are satisfied as possible.  The Republicans got to vote on it, and they voted no.  They just didn't hold enough positions to have any sway.

So basically what I've gathered is that the power structure and myriad rules of Congress allow for some terrible exploitation should one party every hold the majority in both House and Senate, and the quote backs me up on that.  This is by no means a surprise to myself, I've already given you my opinion of the government, it's full of so much shit the governing bodies can't see straight.  It is surprising to me, however, that you call foul for use of a totally legitimate and to the letter strategy for passing a bill into law, but you defend Boehner for using a technically legitimate strategy to put nearly a million American workers and eventually the world economy at risk where the worst the Democrats did is pass a flawed bill that spends a few of your tax dollars to provide the poor with medical assistance. 

It's almost as if you hate charity and a healthy working class or something.

The Republicans have attempted to repeal it forty some odd times, and in spite of how it got passed, it's still there.  Enough people either don't care or want it that it's not going away, and Boehner shouldn't get to hold a bill funding the wages of eight hundred thousand people from vote just because his party can't fix something they don't like the proper, procedural way.  You like that, too, don't you Tom?  You've been harping on it enough, yet the irony is that the side you're defending refuses to go through it properly until it works.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 01:10:45 AM
But Tom!  They compromised to pass the bill, that's what you're so fond of, right?  Compromise?  At any rate, it was passed entirely legitimately, there is no law against rewording a bill to do something else so long as the revision is passed by both parts of Congress.  There's also no law against requesting that your counterparts in the other portion of Congress pass a bill, and offering a reconciliation after the fact to make sure as many people are satisfied as possible.  The Republicans got to vote on it, and they voted no.  They just didn't hold enough positions to have any sway.

So basically what I've gathered is that the power structure and myriad rules of Congress allow for some terrible exploitation should one party every hold the majority in both House and Senate, and the quote backs me up on that.  This is by no means a surprise to myself, I've already given you my opinion of the government, it's full of so much shit the governing bodies can't see straight.  It is surprising to me, however, that you call foul for use of a totally legitimate and to the letter strategy for passing a bill into law

It's not totally legit process. The House Democrats were unable to introduce their own Health Care bill into the House and so the Senate Democrats took a bill which was already passed by the House and gutted it. Look at the Bill Text history:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3590: (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3590:)

Quote
1 . Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 (Introduced in House - IH)[H.R.3590.IH][PDF]
2 . Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 (Engrossed in House [Passed House] - EH)[H.R.3590.EH][PDF]
3 . Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 (Placed on Calendar Senate - PCS)[H.R.3590.PCS][PDF]
4 . Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Amendment in Senate - AS)[H.R.3590.AS][PDF]
5 . Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Public Print - PP)[H.R.3590.PP][PDF]
6 . Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Engrossed Amendment Senate - EAS)[H.R.3590.EAS][PDF]
7 . Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Enrolled Bill [Final as Passed Both House and Senate] - ENR)[H.R.3590.ENR][PDF]

A totally unrelated bill, the Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 was introduced and passed in the House in steps 1 to 3.

At step 4 when it gets to the Senate, Harry Reid takes this House-passed bill and transforms it into Obamacare. The only other time is is passed and voted on is was at step 7, the shady issue where Republicans say they were cheated via improper use of reconciliation - where a bill could pass with fewer Senate votes than necessary.

Can you say with an honest heart that this looks like checks and balances of government were ethically followed?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 09, 2013, 03:21:50 AM
I support the shady business Democrats used.  I just wish they wanted the single payer system rather than this conservative wet dream for big insurance companies.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 09, 2013, 04:14:07 AM

We keep hearing the same talking point from the Republicans responsible for the government shutdown: President Obama won’t compromise.

Liberals wanted single-payer Medicare-for-all, but the president settled on a Republican plan instead, a plan Republicans supported until Obama got on board with it. Republicans didn’t like the public option, so he compromised by removing it. He compromised on abortion coverage. He compromised with the “Cornhusker Kickback” (which was later removed by the Senate). He compromised on Medicare drug price negotiation, and drug reimportation.

He compromised by delaying the employer mandate. He compromised on the CLASS Act, and the 1099 requirements.

Democrats asked Republicans 19 times, starting in April, for a conference to negotiate on the budget, and were told ‘no’ 19 times.

For the budget, President Obama wanted one funding level, and the Republicans wanted a much lower level, so the president agreed to the Republican level. Not some middle-ground between the two proposals – he accepted their number. After getting literally everything they wanted, Republicans said ‘no’ to the deal anyway, deciding they wanted more.

They demanded defunding of Obamacare, or they’ll blow up the country. Then they said, okay, instead of defunding it completely, just gut part of it – they call that a ‘compromise’ because they would only get some, not all, of what they want in exchange for not destroying the country.

Obama says no, you don’t get to demand something in return for not destroying the country. “Not destroying the country” should be sort of a baseline expectation, when you’re in Congress.

And that, folks, is what Republicans call ‘refusing to compromise’.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 09, 2013, 08:32:15 AM
I see.  Your argument is that the GOP has an ever larger list of unreasonably impractical demands that they know are absolutely impossible for them to achieve?

Perhaps this is my real problem with the GOP's tactics right now: they're not negotiating in good faith.  They're using their own bad faith as a way of labeling their opponents as unreasonable.  This is exactly the behavior that I'm criticizing.  Did you actually read the list?

[snip]

If Obama or the Senate don't like those requests, they need to STEP UP AND NEGOTIATE. Perhaps they can agree on limited off shore drilling and only a trillion in reduced spending -- whatever. Refusing to negotiate and reach compromise solutions is NOT HOW GOVERNMENT WORKS.

Obama is showing to be a disgrace to the presidency. Our system of government was designed to prevent one party, or one man, from calling all the shots. This is not a dictatorship.

This describes exactly my problem with this particular tactic.  Let's suppose that Obama says, "Ok, we'll agree to negotiate and settle this list of issues before anyone approves a budget."  So he agrees to their points and delays implementation of the ACA for a year.

So what happens when the GOP says, "Actually, that's not good enough.  Now we want more.  We also want the trillions in spending cuts that we requested and a balanced budget amendment to the constitution."  When Obama inevitably says, "I can't/won't do that," are you going to accuse Obama of being a dictator who refuses to negotiate with the lawmakers in his government?  Where does it end? 

And how is one man calling the shots in Washington?  Obama doesn't control House or Senate Democrats.  I'm not trying to downplay his influence, but House Democrats aren't slaves to Obama.  Obama can't make House Republicans accept his budget.  For all this talk of dictators, you don't seem to get that dictators typically don't want for their legislatures to fund their projects.  Obama the dictator would simply have mandated universal health care.  The whole reason we're at this point is that Democrats have no choice but to compromise with Republicans at every level of government, and vice versa.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 09, 2013, 09:16:47 AM
21 Things Republicans Have Demanded In Exchange For Not Tanking The Global Economy
1. Defunding Obamacare
2. Approving Keystone XL
3. Eliminating funding for Planned Parenthood
4. Medicare privatization
5. Tax reform, as outlined by Paul Ryan
6. The REINS Act, which would require Congress to approve significant federal regulations
7. Means-testing Social Security
8. A balanced budget amendment
9. Allowing employers to eliminate insurance coverage for birth control
10. An expansion of off-shore drilling
11. Preserving all the Bush tax cuts
12. “Trillions” in budget cuts
13. Slashing funding for food stamps
14. Protecting mountaintop strip mining
15. Stripping the EPA of authority to regulate greenhouse gases
16. Loosening regulation on coal ash
17. Delaying Obamacare implementation by one year
18. Repealing a tax on medical devices
19. Eliminating Social Service Block Grants
20. Expanding drilling on federal lands
21. Restricting the child tax credit
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2013, 09:46:01 AM
The House is doing a terrible job, so says We The People delivering a 5% approval rating:

Government Shutdown Blamed On Republicans: Poll
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/09/government-shutdown-republicans-poll_n_4069254.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/09/government-shutdown-republicans-poll_n_4069254.html)
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 09:50:23 AM

We keep hearing the same talking point from the Republicans responsible for the government shutdown: President Obama won’t compromise.

Liberals wanted single-payer Medicare-for-all, but the president settled on a Republican plan instead, a plan Republicans supported until Obama got on board with it. Republicans didn’t like the public option, so he compromised by removing it. He compromised on abortion coverage. He compromised with the “Cornhusker Kickback” (which was later removed by the Senate). He compromised on Medicare drug price negotiation, and drug reimportation.

He compromised by delaying the employer mandate. He compromised on the CLASS Act, and the 1099 requirements.

Democrats asked Republicans 19 times, starting in April, for a conference to negotiate on the budget, and were told ‘no’ 19 times.

For the budget, President Obama wanted one funding level, and the Republicans wanted a much lower level, so the president agreed to the Republican level. Not some middle-ground between the two proposals – he accepted their number. After getting literally everything they wanted, Republicans said ‘no’ to the deal anyway, deciding they wanted more.

They demanded defunding of Obamacare, or they’ll blow up the country. Then they said, okay, instead of defunding it completely, just gut part of it – they call that a ‘compromise’ because they would only get some, not all, of what they want in exchange for not destroying the country.

Obama says no, you don’t get to demand something in return for not destroying the country. “Not destroying the country” should be sort of a baseline expectation, when you’re in Congress.

And that, folks, is what Republicans call ‘refusing to compromise’.

Please don't copy-paste blog posts as your own.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 09, 2013, 10:07:49 AM

We keep hearing the same talking point from the Republicans responsible for the government shutdown: President Obama won’t compromise.

Liberals wanted single-payer Medicare-for-all, but the president settled on a Republican plan instead, a plan Republicans supported until Obama got on board with it. Republicans didn’t like the public option, so he compromised by removing it. He compromised on abortion coverage. He compromised with the “Cornhusker Kickback” (which was later removed by the Senate). He compromised on Medicare drug price negotiation, and drug reimportation.

He compromised by delaying the employer mandate. He compromised on the CLASS Act, and the 1099 requirements.

Democrats asked Republicans 19 times, starting in April, for a conference to negotiate on the budget, and were told ‘no’ 19 times.

For the budget, President Obama wanted one funding level, and the Republicans wanted a much lower level, so the president agreed to the Republican level. Not some middle-ground between the two proposals – he accepted their number. After getting literally everything they wanted, Republicans said ‘no’ to the deal anyway, deciding they wanted more.

They demanded defunding of Obamacare, or they’ll blow up the country. Then they said, okay, instead of defunding it completely, just gut part of it – they call that a ‘compromise’ because they would only get some, not all, of what they want in exchange for not destroying the country.

Obama says no, you don’t get to demand something in return for not destroying the country. “Not destroying the country” should be sort of a baseline expectation, when you’re in Congress.

And that, folks, is what Republicans call ‘refusing to compromise’.

Please don't copy-paste blog posts as your own.

I put it here because it is true not to impress you.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 10:09:29 AM
This describes exactly my problem with this particular tactic.  Let's suppose that Obama says, "Ok, we'll agree to negotiate and settle this list of issues before anyone approves a budget."  So he agrees to their points and delays implementation of the ACA for a year.

So what happens when the GOP says, "Actually, that's not good enough.  Now we want more.  We also want the trillions in spending cuts that we requested and a balanced budget amendment to the constitution."  When Obama inevitably says, "I can't/won't do that," are you going to accuse Obama of being a dictator who refuses to negotiate with the lawmakers in his government?  Where does it end?
 

If Obama negotiates then he is no longer a dictator. He is then doing his job and engaging in compromise with Congress. Negotiation and compromise is how our system of government works.

If the President and the the House can't come to an agreeable compromise then the country will simply default until a solution can be found. Obama should have begun engaging in these talks months ago, not ten minutes before midnight.

Quote
And how is one man calling the shots in Washington?  Obama doesn't control House or Senate Democrats.  I'm not trying to downplay his influence, but House Democrats aren't slaves to Obama.  Obama can't make House Republicans accept his budget.  For all this talk of dictators, you don't seem to get that dictators typically don't want for their legislatures to fund their projects.  Obama the dictator would simply have mandated universal health care.  The whole reason we're at this point is that Democrats have no choice but to compromise with Republicans at every level of government, and vice versa.

Obama and the Democrats basically did mandate Obamacare. We've seen here that Obamacare was passed in a shady way. It is outrageous that Harry Reid would take a bill which has already been passed by the House and "amend" it by replacing its title and content with the Obamacare bill.

The Republicans should stand up to it on just that fact alone.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 09, 2013, 10:13:57 AM
There is nothing to negotiate on and there is nothing to compromise about. If the country foes in to default then you know republicans will be blamed. Poll after poll indicates this. Your party has more to lose here than the dems. None of us want this shutdown but if it happens then at least the dems still have a party.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 09, 2013, 10:16:17 AM
What is shady about voting in a bill? That is the job they were elected to do.  If anything, it is the people's fault for giving the presidency, House, and Senate to one party. 
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 09, 2013, 10:42:37 AM
If Obama negotiates then he is no longer a dictator. He is then doing his job and engaging in compromise with Congress. Negotiation and compromise is how our system of government works.

If the President and the the House can't come to an agreeable compromise then the country will simply default until a solution can be found. Obama should have begun engaging in these talks months ago, not ten minutes before midnight.

Reasonable negotiation and compromise is how our system of government works.  Good faith negotiation and compromise is how our system of government works.  The GOP is not currently doing those things.  The GOP has refused to continue to govern until the president meets their list of demands.  Look at that list.  There is no way that any intelligent human being could expect the Deomcratic party to achieve meaningful negotiations on those topics BEFORE APPROVING A CONTINUING RESOLUTION TO KEEP FUNDING THE GOVERNMENT.  How are you not getting this?  The substance of the demands is very, very, very important to this process. 

Describing the ACA as a dictatorial policy that Obama and/or the Democratic Party shoved through Congress without opposition or compromise is completely asinine.  That's not at all what happened.  If it had been, we'd have universal health care.  THE ENTIRE BILL IS ONE GIANT CONCESSION TO THE GOP.  That's a fact.  That the GOP now uses that concession as a way of lambasting the president is...I don't even know.  It's fucking stupid.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 11:30:31 AM
There is nothing to negotiate on and there is nothing to compromise about. If the country foes in to default then you know republicans will be blamed. Poll after poll indicates this. Your party has more to lose here than the dems. None of us want this shutdown but if it happens then at least the dems still have a party.

Obama has an obligation to negotiate with Congress. If negotiations are prolonged and the country defaults, Obama should have thought about that months ago, not when the government is already shut down due to his inaction and the bills are due.

If you are failing in class, last minute studying does not excuse you when you end up with an F on your finals.

Reasonable negotiation and compromise is how our system of government works.  Good faith negotiation and compromise is how our system of government works.  The GOP is not currently doing those things.  The GOP has refused to continue to govern until the president meets their list of demands.  Look at that list.  There is no way that any intelligent human being could expect the Deomcratic party to achieve meaningful negotiations on those topics BEFORE APPROVING A CONTINUING RESOLUTION TO KEEP FUNDING THE GOVERNMENT.  How are you not getting this?  The substance of the demands is very, very, very important to this process.

What Obama is asking would be like your employer coming to you at the end of the year and telling you to sign your name on your next employment contract, and agree to terms you fundamentally disagree with. You will be paid an unfair rate and be forced to travel away from your family, expenses not included. You are told you can negotiate the terms of your contract after you've signed your name on the dotted line.

That is simply not how our system of government works.

Quote from: garygreen
Describing the ACA as a dictatorial policy that Obama and/or the Democratic Party shoved through Congress without opposition or compromise is completely asinine.  That's not at all what happened.  If it had been, we'd have universal health care.  THE ENTIRE BILL IS ONE GIANT CONCESSION TO THE GOP.  That's a fact.  That the GOP now uses that concession as a way of lambasting the president is...I don't even know.  It's fucking stupid.

But it is what happened. Read the bill history. It's all there in black and white. The democrats took a Military Housing bill which was already passed by the House and "amended" it by replacing its title and content with the Obamacare bill. This was done because the House Democrats were unable to initiate and pass Obamacare in the House, where all revenue generating bills must originate.

That is not how checks and balances work. It cannot be said that Obamacare was passed fairly through our system of government and that we must all just roll over to it. What was done is slimy and wrong, and you should be ashamed for defending it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 09, 2013, 11:50:52 AM
Ok tom you want negotiate. What do the republicans have to offer other than to not destroy the government?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 09, 2013, 11:55:48 AM
Ok tom you want negotiate. What do the republicans have to offer other than to not destroy the government?
Allowing Obamacare to keep existing, which will destroy America.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 09, 2013, 12:01:36 PM
Ok tom you want negotiate. What do the republicans have to offer other than to not destroy the government?
Allowing Obamacare to keep existing, which will destroy America.

Hmmm. So you don't want to defund Obamacare?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 09, 2013, 12:08:41 PM
What Obama is asking would be like your employer coming to you at the end of the year and telling you to sign your name on your next employment contract, and agree to terms you fundamentally disagree with. You will be paid an unfair rate and be forced to travel away from your family, expenses not included. You are told you can negotiate the terms of your contract after you've signed your name on the dotted line.

That is simply not how our system of government works.

Those two things are not the same.  If they were, it would be more like the CFO of a Fortune 500 company telling the CEO that he refuses to issue any payments on any accounts until he gets a raise, a Ferrari, a vacation home on the French Mediterranean, 6 months paid vacation every year, Sally in HR is fired, and the company renames itself to BIG BUTTS INC.  The CEO says that she obviously can't and won't do any of those things, and that if he wants to talk to her about getting a raise, then he first has to go back to doing the accounting work he was hired to perform because it is vital to the operation of the company.  So you think that the right thing to do is for the CFO to declare that the CEO is a totally unreasonable for being unwilling to negotiate his terms, and to continue blocking normal business transactions? 

Do you really not believe that the nature and substance of the demands themselves are at all relevant to this discussion?

Let's suppose that Obama concedes and allows the House to defund the ACA.  And let's suppose that the GOP wins the presidency in the next election.  House Democrats declare that enough is enough and that they refuse to vote for any budget that does not fully fund the ACA.  In addition, they also have the following demands:

1.  Abolish the US strategic nuclear arsenal.
2.  Cut military spending in half.
3.  Fully subsidize planned parenthood.
4.  Abolish the War on Drugs.
5.  Comprehensive gun registry and assault weapons ban.
6.  Double the minimum wage.
7.  Pass the DREAM Act.
8.  Double federal education funding.
9.  Pass the Buffett Rule.
10.  Shut down Guantanamo Bay.

And then add ten more things.  You're telling me that you would find this proposition reasonable, and you would expect the GOP to sit down and negotiate these issues before funding our debt obligations?

And you still haven't explained what the GOP negotiating position is.  A big list of demands is not good faith negotiation.  It's a big list of demands. 
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 12:27:03 PM
Ok tom you want negotiate. What do the republicans have to offer other than to not destroy the government?

Read the list you posted.

Building the Keystone pipeline certainly isn't going to destroy the government, nor would an expansion of off-shore drilling. Nor would ending Obama's "War on Coal" to allow our coal plants continue operating. Those things bring in more revenue, create jobs, and make the country more energy sufficient.

Cutting off an abortion clinic from public funds isn't going to destroy the government.

A balanced budget isn't an unreasonable thing to ask, nor is tax reform. The country must spend less and cut trillions. The path Obama has us on is simply unsustainable.

(http://sites.psu.edu/ejwcivicissues/files/2013/03/Obama-Debt.jpg)

Right now the country's Debt to GDP ratio is 73%. This is unusually high. The country is consuming about as much debt as it was during the first years of WWII, which briefly peaked to 110% in 1946. In addition, this type of spending is going to continue for much longer than WWII lasted, which makes it unsustainable.

It's just like racking up bills on a Credit Card. The more added to it means the greater our monthly payments will be, until it is impossible to pay it off. The GAO said it themselves it was unsustainable:

Quote
The Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported that federal spending will drive the national debt to “unsustainable” levels in the coming decades, fueled by ever-rising health care costs and federal entitlement spending.

“The growing fiscal imbalance is driven on the spending side by rising health care costs and the aging of the population,” the GAO said in its report, The Federal Government’s Long-Term Fiscal Outlook, Spring 2012 Update.

Furthermore, "[d]espite limits on discretionary spending that would bring discretionary spending to levels not seen in recent history, our simulations show total federal spending continuing to exceed revenues and feeding an unsustainable growth in debt," states the report. "The policy actions required to close the fiscal gap are significant, and changing the long-term outlook will likely require difficult decisions about both federal spending and revenue."

Obama must make the hard decisions here and now. He cannot just continue to spend money he does not have.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 09, 2013, 12:34:21 PM
And where in your post where you are defending republican demands have you offered anything that would incentivize democrats to negotiate?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 12:39:59 PM
Those two things are not the same.  If they were, it would be more like the CFO of a Fortune 500 company telling the CEO that he refuses to issue any payments on any accounts until he gets a raise, a Ferrari, a vacation home on the French Mediterranean, 6 months paid vacation every year, Sally in HR is fired, and the company renames itself to BIG BUTTS INC.  The CEO says that she obviously can't and won't do any of those things, and that if he wants to talk to her about getting a raise, then he first has to go back to doing the accounting work he was hired to perform because it is vital to the operation of the company.  So you think that the right thing to do is for the CFO to declare that the CEO is a totally unreasonable for being unwilling to negotiate his terms, and to continue blocking normal business transactions?

But the business transactions in this case are not "normal". It's not like that at all. What a terrible analogy. A more appropriate analogy is that new CEO comes in and wants to spend more money than the company has, taking out debt the company cannot repay. The CFO is doing the fiscally responsible thing and not signing his budget proposal. The CFO submits one of his own, with normal spending, and the CEO is refusing to sign that. The CFO asks to bargain, bringing a number of concessions to the table, and the CEO flatly refuses to negotiate saying "I will not negotiate with a gun to my head!"

The company has in its bylaws that it cannot continue to operate unless an agreement is signed and that's where we are today.

Quote
Let's suppose that Obama concedes and allows the House to defund the ACA.  And let's suppose that the GOP wins the presidency in the next election.  House Democrats declare that enough is enough and that they refuse to vote for any budget that does not fully fund the ACA.  In addition, they also have the following demands:

1.  Abolish the US strategic nuclear arsenal.
2.  Cut military spending in half.
3.  Fully subsidize planned parenthood.
4.  Abolish the War on Drugs.
5.  Comprehensive gun registry and assault weapons ban.
6.  Double the minimum wage.
7.  Pass the DREAM Act.
8.  Double federal education funding.
9.  Pass the Buffett Rule.
10.  Shut down Guantanamo Bay.

And then add ten more things.  You're telling me that you would find this proposition reasonable, and you would expect the GOP to sit down and negotiate these issues before funding our debt obligations?

And you still haven't explained what the GOP negotiating position is.  A big list of demands is not good faith negotiation.  It's a big list of demands.

If the situation were reversed and the Democrats controlled the House, they have the absolute right to disagree with the federal budget being used for unnecessary spending on Military or the federal government's inappropriate use of Guantanamo Bay. The Republican president would be obligated to reach over the isle and come to a compromise with his opponent. It is not his way or the highway. We do not live in a dictatorship where the president just gets to recklessly spend on military and provide zero safety net for the elderly and disabled.

Compromise is how our system of government works.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 09, 2013, 12:56:29 PM
But Tom!  They compromised to pass the bill, that's what you're so fond of, right?  Compromise?  At any rate, it was passed entirely legitimately, there is no law against rewording a bill to do something else so long as the revision is passed by both parts of Congress.  There's also no law against requesting that your counterparts in the other portion of Congress pass a bill, and offering a reconciliation after the fact to make sure as many people are satisfied as possible.  The Republicans got to vote on it, and they voted no.  They just didn't hold enough positions to have any sway.

So basically what I've gathered is that the power structure and myriad rules of Congress allow for some terrible exploitation should one party every hold the majority in both House and Senate, and the quote backs me up on that.  This is by no means a surprise to myself, I've already given you my opinion of the government, it's full of so much shit the governing bodies can't see straight.  It is surprising to me, however, that you call foul for use of a totally legitimate and to the letter strategy for passing a bill into law

It's not totally legit process. The House Democrats were unable to introduce their own Health Care bill into the House and so the Senate Democrats took a bill which was already passed by the House and gutted it. Look at the Bill Text history:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3590: (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3590:)

Quote
1 . Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 (Introduced in House - IH)[H.R.3590.IH][PDF]
2 . Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 (Engrossed in House [Passed House] - EH)[H.R.3590.EH][PDF]
3 . Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 (Placed on Calendar Senate - PCS)[H.R.3590.PCS][PDF]
4 . Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Amendment in Senate - AS)[H.R.3590.AS][PDF]
5 . Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Public Print - PP)[H.R.3590.PP][PDF]
6 . Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Engrossed Amendment Senate - EAS)[H.R.3590.EAS][PDF]
7 . Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Enrolled Bill [Final as Passed Both House and Senate] - ENR)[H.R.3590.ENR][PDF]

A totally unrelated bill, the Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009 was introduced and passed in the House in steps 1 to 3.

At step 4 when it gets to the Senate, Harry Reid takes this House-passed bill and transforms it into Obamacare. The only other time is is passed and voted on is was at step 7, the shady issue where Republicans say they were cheated via improper use of reconciliation - where a bill could pass with fewer Senate votes than necessary.

Can you say with an honest heart that this looks like checks and balances of government were ethically followed?

Tom, the seventh revision was passed by both parts of Congress.  As in, as it stood in it's final version, it was passed, see the bolded text in brackets after the final revision.  There's a very specific rule in Congress that both sections must pass the same version of the same bill.  Harry Reid gutted the bill and used it for something else, and it was subsequently passed by the House and the Senate.

As I've already pointed out, the ACA was not passed by means of reconciliation.  It literally could not have been as it was a new bill, and there has been nothing you've shown that said it did.  There HAVE been several sources you linked that state the offer of a reconciliation to amend the ACA after it's signature into law was what allowed it to pass, but again, the ACA passed Senate with the full sixty votes required, to the thirty nine opposed.  The revision passed Senate with the full fifty one votes required and then some.  The Republicans held no sway in the Senate, so you can blame voters and past officials that instated reconciliation without significant limiters for this one.

So yes, I can say with an honest heart that the severely mangled system of checks and balances were ethically followed.  Just as they're technically being followed now, although there's a great lot more at risk if Boehner keeps it up, which is again why I don't get how you have it in your mind to defend the man actively hurting almost a  million Americans and threatening the rest of the world with a slump the likes of the Great Depression, but you're pissed off at a bill passing that allows the working poor to continue being the working poor and not the rotting dead for a few of your tax dollars.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Saddam Hussein on October 09, 2013, 01:01:19 PM
Stop making shitty analogies, all of you.  We are not talking about a family or a private business.  We are talking about a country.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 01:17:29 PM
Tom, the seventh revision was passed by both parts of Congress.  As in, as it stood in it's final version, it was passed, see the bolded text in brackets after the final revision.  There's a very specific rule in Congress that both sections must pass the same version of the same bill.  Harry Reid gutted the bill and used it for something else, and it was subsequently passed by the House and the Senate.

Bills half way through the legislative process of becoming a law are not regularly "gutted and used for something else". I don't know what backwards third world phony-democracy you think we live in, but this is NOT the way our government is supposed to work.

Revenue generating bills like Obamacare must originate in the House. The Democrats were having trouble initiating and passing the act through the House through the normal method and so they conspired to skirt our system of checks and balances.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2013, 01:19:36 PM
Tom, the seventh revision was passed by both parts of Congress.  As in, as it stood in it's final version, it was passed, see the bolded text in brackets after the final revision.  There's a very specific rule in Congress that both sections must pass the same version of the same bill.  Harry Reid gutted the bill and used it for something else, and it was subsequently passed by the House and the Senate.

Bills half way through the legislative process of becoming a law are not regularly "gutted and used for something else". I don't know what backwards third world phony-democracy you think we live in, but this is NOT the way our government is supposed to work.

Revenue generating bills like Obamacare must originate in the House. The Democrats were having trouble initiating and passing the act through the House through the normal method and so they conspired to skirt our system of checks and balances.

They skirted it by the house by getting them to vote on and approve the final version.  How dastardly!
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 01:38:51 PM
Tom, the seventh revision was passed by both parts of Congress.  As in, as it stood in it's final version, it was passed, see the bolded text in brackets after the final revision.  There's a very specific rule in Congress that both sections must pass the same version of the same bill.  Harry Reid gutted the bill and used it for something else, and it was subsequently passed by the House and the Senate.

Bills half way through the legislative process of becoming a law are not regularly "gutted and used for something else". I don't know what backwards third world phony-democracy you think we live in, but this is NOT the way our government is supposed to work.

Revenue generating bills like Obamacare must originate in the House. The Democrats were having trouble initiating and passing the act through the House through the normal method and so they conspired to skirt our system of checks and balances.

They skirted it by the house by getting them to vote on and approve the final version.  How dastardly!

The final version of Obamacare was approved via reconciliation. Pyrolizard is wrong that reconciliation was not used to pass the ACA. Improper use of reconciliation was used to pass a bill which had not yet been passed.

I encourage you to read up on old articles on the subject.

http://www.redstate.com/brian_d/2010/02/28/lying-and-cheating-to-pass-obamacare/ (http://www.redstate.com/brian_d/2010/02/28/lying-and-cheating-to-pass-obamacare/)

Quote
Reconciliation is unprecedented and unusual for a few reasons.  First, the left is using reconciliation, the ObamaCare Nuclear Option, as a procedure of last resort to get ObamaCare passed.  It would be interesting for the left to produce other bills that have failed during the use of the regular order for a bill, necessitating Congress to resort to reconciliation.  ObamaCare passed the House in November [when it was called the Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009] and the Senate on Christmas Eve, yet they are resorting to reconciliation because they know they can’t get one Republican to support the President’s health care bill in the Senate.

Second, reconciliation has never been used to amend a bill that has yet to pass.  The Health Care Nuclear Option will be used to pass a new bill that amends the Senate passed version of ObamaCare. Finally, reconciliation has not traditionally been used to steamroll the will of the American people.  The bipartisan Blair House Summit was merely some feel good politics before the real effort by Democrats to jam an unpopular ObamaCare bill through Congress using a the procedural Nuclear Option.  The American people should take note that Washington continues to view their opposition with contempt and politicians would like you to believe that they know what is best for America.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 09, 2013, 01:48:01 PM
Stop making shitty analogies, all of you.  We are not talking about a family or a private business.  We are talking about a country.
A million times this.  Government is a beast unlike any other.  It cannot be compared to anything other than other governments and to a small degree not-for-profits.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2013, 01:57:44 PM
Sorry Tom, I fail to see how using a legal power is cheating.  You are negating your exact rationale for government being shutdown.  Reconciliation does not prevent Republicans from voting on the Bill either; it only reduces the amount of time for debate:

"Reconciliation also exists in the United States House of Representatives, but because the House regularly passes rules that constrain debate and amendment, the process has had a less significant impact on that body."

And just so you know, Congress has to approve reconciliation as well.  So to sum up, Reconciliation, a legal power of Congress was implemented by Congress, with a Republican majority, to reduce debate time on a bill, that was subsequently voted on and approved by a House with a majority of Republicans. 

Wow Tom, you really nailed that one.  You should choose your propaganda blogs a little more carefully.

Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 02:01:09 PM
Sorry Tom, I fail to see how using a legal power is cheating.  You are negating your exact rationale for government being shutdown.  Reconciliation does not prevent Republicans from voting on the Bill either; it only reduces the amount of time for debate:

"Reconciliation also exists in the United States House of Representatives, but because the House regularly passes rules that constrain debate and amendment, the process has had a less significant impact on that body."

And just so you know, Congress has to approve reconciliation as well.  So to sum up, Reconciliation, a legal power of Congress was implemented by Congress, with a Republican majority, to reduce debate time on a bill, that was subsequently voted on and approved by a House with a majority of Republicans. 

Wow Tom, you really nailed that one.  You should choose your propaganda blogs a little more carefully.

Congress did not approve reconciliation for bills like Obamacare. It was an improper use of reconciliation.

The reconciliation process was created in the 70's so that Congress could move quickly on budget matters. By ramming Obamacare through the legislative process via reconciliation it allowed Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid to ignore all dissenting voices and pass, against bi-partisan opposition, their bill with only 50 Democrat votes instead of the traditional 60.

The chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, Kent Conrad, says as much here (http://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2010/02/a-separate-headline-conrad-reconciliation-wont-work/36785/):

Quote from: Kent Conrad
"...reconciliation cannot be used to pass comprehensive health care reform. It won't work. It won't work because it was never designed for that kind of significant legislation. It was designed for deficit reduction... The major package of health care reform cannot move through the reconciliation process. It will not work... It will not work because of the Byrd rule which says anything that doesn't score for budget purposes has to be eliminated. That would eliminate all the delivery system reform, all the insurance market reform, all of those things the experts tell us are really the most important parts of this bill. The only possible role that I can see for reconciliation would be make modest changes in the major package to improve affordability, to deal with what share of Medicaid expansion the federal government pays, those kinds of issues, which is the traditional role for reconciliation in health care."
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 09, 2013, 02:16:21 PM
Tom, the seventh revision was passed by both parts of Congress.  As in, as it stood in it's final version, it was passed, see the bolded text in brackets after the final revision.  There's a very specific rule in Congress that both sections must pass the same version of the same bill.  Harry Reid gutted the bill and used it for something else, and it was subsequently passed by the House and the Senate.

Bills half way through the legislative process of becoming a law are not regularly "gutted and used for something else". I don't know what backwards third world phony-democracy you think we live in, but this is NOT the way our government is supposed to work.

Revenue generating bills like Obamacare must originate in the House. The Democrats were having trouble initiating and passing the act through the House through the normal method and so they conspired to skirt our system of checks and balances.

Correct, it's very unusual and extremely novel while still being fully legitimate and legal, and hopefully there will be a fix passed soon.  As it stands, politicians politicked.  They exploited every loophole they could to get what they wanted done, and didn't go against a single law in the process by means of following the word of the law but not the intention.


Tom, the seventh revision was passed by both parts of Congress.  As in, as it stood in it's final version, it was passed, see the bolded text in brackets after the final revision.  There's a very specific rule in Congress that both sections must pass the same version of the same bill.  Harry Reid gutted the bill and used it for something else, and it was subsequently passed by the House and the Senate.

Bills half way through the legislative process of becoming a law are not regularly "gutted and used for something else". I don't know what backwards third world phony-democracy you think we live in, but this is NOT the way our government is supposed to work.

Revenue generating bills like Obamacare must originate in the House. The Democrats were having trouble initiating and passing the act through the House through the normal method and so they conspired to skirt our system of checks and balances.

They skirted it by the house by getting them to vote on and approve the final version.  How dastardly!

The final version of Obamacare was approved via reconciliation. Pyrolizard is wrong that reconciliation was not used to pass the ACA. Improper use of reconciliation was used to pass a bill which had not yet been passed.

I encourage you to read up on old articles on the subject.

http://www.redstate.com/brian_d/2010/02/28/lying-and-cheating-to-pass-obamacare/ (http://www.redstate.com/brian_d/2010/02/28/lying-and-cheating-to-pass-obamacare/)

Quote
Reconciliation is unprecedented and unusual for a few reasons.  First, the left is using reconciliation, the ObamaCare Nuclear Option, as a procedure of last resort to get ObamaCare passed.  It would be interesting for the left to produce other bills that have failed during the use of the regular order for a bill, necessitating Congress to resort to reconciliation.  ObamaCare passed the House in November [when it was called the Service Members Home Ownership Tax Act of 2009] and the Senate on Christmas Eve, yet they are resorting to reconciliation because they know they can’t get one Republican to support the President’s health care bill in the Senate.

Second, reconciliation has never been used to amend a bill that has yet to pass.  The Health Care Nuclear Option will be used to pass a new bill that amends the Senate passed version of ObamaCare. Finally, reconciliation has not traditionally been used to steamroll the will of the American people.  The bipartisan Blair House Summit was merely some feel good politics before the real effort by Democrats to jam an unpopular ObamaCare bill through Congress using a the procedural Nuclear Option.  The American people should take note that Washington continues to view their opposition with contempt and politicians would like you to believe that they know what is best for America.

Would you like me to show you the article linked in one your own that details the ACA passing mere hours prior to the reconciliation being raised again?  It may be true that anything of substance in the ACA was passed via reconciliation, I can't say otherwise, I didn't follow the procedures as they happened.  It's even true that talk of the reconciliation and an early draft began prior to it being signed into law.  But the ACA passed the Senate with a supermajority of Democrats and the House with the promise of amendments to the bill in the form of reconciliation being raised, which did indeed happen.  The reconciliation was used to make changes to the ACA after passing to avoid it having to go back through the Senate, which was no longer a supermajority Democrats and thus could be filibustered.

I CAN show you when the ACA was passed, with how many votes in the House and Senate, and that the procedure for passing it although unorthodox was fully legitimate.  I can also show you a reconciliation raised the day it was signed into law, promised and drafted prior, the date a week later that the reconciliation passed, and that it was indeed NOT filibustered.  Would you like that, Tom?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 09, 2013, 02:20:54 PM
Sorry Tom, I fail to see how using a legal power is cheating.  You are negating your exact rationale for government being shutdown.  Reconciliation does not prevent Republicans from voting on the Bill either; it only reduces the amount of time for debate:

"Reconciliation also exists in the United States House of Representatives, but because the House regularly passes rules that constrain debate and amendment, the process has had a less significant impact on that body."

And just so you know, Congress has to approve reconciliation as well.  So to sum up, Reconciliation, a legal power of Congress was implemented by Congress, with a Republican majority, to reduce debate time on a bill, that was subsequently voted on and approved by a House with a majority of Republicans. 

Wow Tom, you really nailed that one.  You should choose your propaganda blogs a little more carefully.

Congress did not approve reconciliation for bills like Obamacare. It was an improper use of reconciliation.

The reconciliation process was created in the 70's so that Congress could move quickly on budget matters. By ramming Obamacare through the legislative process via reconciliation it allowed Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid to ignore all dissenting voices and pass, against bi-partisan opposition, their bill with only 50 Democrat votes instead of the traditional 60.

The chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, Kent Conrad, says as much here (http://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2010/02/a-separate-headline-conrad-reconciliation-wont-work/36785/):

Quote from: Kent Conrad
"...reconciliation cannot be used to pass comprehensive health care reform. It won't work. It won't work because it was never designed for that kind of significant legislation. It was designed for deficit reduction... The major package of health care reform cannot move through the reconciliation process. It will not work... It will not work because of the Byrd rule which says anything that doesn't score for budget purposes has to be eliminated. That would eliminate all the delivery system reform, all the insurance market reform, all of those things the experts tell us are really the most important parts of this bill. The only possible role that I can see for reconciliation would be make modest changes in the major package to improve affordability, to deal with what share of Medicaid expansion the federal government pays, those kinds of issues, which is the traditional role for reconciliation in health care."

Right.  They followed the letter of the law, and not the purpose, and subsequently got a terrible law out of it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 02:23:21 PM
Correct, it's very unusual and extremely novel while still being fully legitimate and legal, and hopefully there will be a fix passed soon.  As it stands, politicians politicked.  They exploited every loophole they could to get what they wanted done, and didn't go against a single law in the process by means of following the word of the law but not the intention.

It is neither legitimate nor legal. Read the actual reconciliation law. The Byrd Rule, which Senator Kent Conrad invokes in my previous post, is part of the actual law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_and_Impoundment_Control_Act_of_1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_and_Impoundment_Control_Act_of_1974)

Quote
The limitation on debate that prevents a budget reconciliation bill from being filibustered in the Senate (requiring a three-fifths vote to end debate) led to frequent attempts to attach amendments unrelated to the budget to the reconciliation bills. In response, the budget reconciliation acts of 1985, 1986, and 1990 adopted what is known as the Byrd Rule (Section 313 of the Budget Act).
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 09, 2013, 02:26:02 PM
Correct, it's very unusual and extremely novel while still being fully legitimate and legal, and hopefully there will be a fix passed soon.  As it stands, politicians politicked.  They exploited every loophole they could to get what they wanted done, and didn't go against a single law in the process by means of following the word of the law but not the intention.

It is neither legitimate nor legal. Read the actual reconciliation law. The Byrd Rule, which Senator Kent Conrad invokes in my previous post, is part of the actual law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_and_Impoundment_Control_Act_of_1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_and_Impoundment_Control_Act_of_1974)

Quote
The limitation on debate that prevents a budget reconciliation bill from being filibustered in the Senate (requiring a three-fifths vote to end debate) led to frequent attempts to attach amendments unrelated to the budget to the reconciliation bills. In response, the budget reconciliation acts of 1985, 1986, and 1990 adopted what is known as the Byrd Rule (Section 313 of the Budget Act).
If it's illegal, why hasn't the GOP challenged it in court?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 09, 2013, 02:35:24 PM
Correct, it's very unusual and extremely novel while still being fully legitimate and legal, and hopefully there will be a fix passed soon.  As it stands, politicians politicked.  They exploited every loophole they could to get what they wanted done, and didn't go against a single law in the process by means of following the word of the law but not the intention.

It is neither legitimate nor legal. Read the actual Reconciliation law. The Byrd Rule, which Senator Kent Conrad invokes in my previous post, is part of the actual law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_and_Impoundment_Control_Act_of_1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Budget_and_Impoundment_Control_Act_of_1974)


Quote
The limitation on debate that prevents a budget reconciliation bill from being filibustered in the Senate (requiring a three-fifths vote to end debate) led to frequent attempts to attach amendments unrelated to the budget to the reconciliation bills. In response, the budget reconciliation acts of 1985, 1986, and 1990 adopted what is known as the Byrd Rule (Section 313 of the Budget Act).

Your quote doesn't contradict me.  It was used as a bargaining chip with the House for a bill that already had much to do with healthcare when it passed the Senate, and amended budgetary items.  Perhaps a list of provisions in the reconciliation?  Wikipedia should do again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Care_and_Education_Reconciliation_Act_of_2010#Provisions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Care_and_Education_Reconciliation_Act_of_2010#Provisions)

As you can see, most amendments are indeed budgetary, with the ones that aren't being indirectly related to the budget.  And if you don't like Wikipedia for this purpose, I can grab the passed copy and you can try and pull out non-budgetary items.

If you'd like to direct me to a reliable source that tells of how the ACA was actually passed by reconciliation, and that it wasn't simply used to amend the ACA closer to the bill that was in the House when it passed Senate, by all means do.  As of yet all your sources have been vague and highly biased, saying only that reconciliation is the reason Obamacare passed, not how this is the case.  Combining that with the official story and several news organizations stating rather clearly that the reconciliation occurred AFTER the bill was signed into law, I'm inclined not to believe what they're implying without good reason and more clarity of wording.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2013, 03:07:23 PM
Tom, each instance of reconciliation must be approved by congress. So in the case of the ACA, the Republican controlled House approved the reconciliation procedure.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Saddam Hussein on October 09, 2013, 04:05:56 PM
I'm pretty sure that if there was any validity - or even any reasonably colorable validity - to this claim that the ACA was passed illegally, the Republicans would be trumpeting it from the rooftops.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 04:10:09 PM
Your quote doesn't contradict me.  It was used as a bargaining chip with the House for a bill that already had much to do with healthcare when it passed the Senate, and amended budgetary items.  Perhaps a list of provisions in the reconciliation?  Wikipedia should do again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Care_and_Education_Reconciliation_Act_of_2010#Provisions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_Care_and_Education_Reconciliation_Act_of_2010#Provisions)

As you can see, most amendments are indeed budgetary, with the ones that aren't being indirectly related to the budget.  And if you don't like Wikipedia for this purpose, I can grab the passed copy and you can try and pull out non-budgetary items.

If you'd like to direct me to a reliable source that tells of how the ACA was actually passed by reconciliation, and that it wasn't simply used to amend the ACA closer to the bill that was in the House when it passed Senate, by all means do.  As of yet all your sources have been vague and highly biased, saying only that reconciliation is the reason Obamacare passed, not how this is the case.  Combining that with the official story and several news organizations stating rather clearly that the reconciliation occurred AFTER the bill was signed into law, I'm inclined not to believe what they're implying without good reason and more clarity of wording.

Pyrolizard, here is evidence that the original bill was passed via reconciliation. First, we bring up the  Obamacare H.R. 3590 bill on govtrack.us.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590#overview (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590#overview)

Quote
Introduced - Sep 17, 2009
Passed House - Oct 08, 2009
Passed Senate with Changes    - Dec 24, 2009
House Agreed to Changes - Mar 21, 2010
Signed by the President - Mar 23, 2010

Look at the dates for the key passings.

Firstly, it is alleged that the House first passed the Obamacare on October 8, 2010. This is factually incorrect. On October 8, 2010 the H.R. 3590 bill was a Military Housing Bill. Here is the PDF of the original bill (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr3590pcs/pdf/BILLS-111hr3590pcs.pdf) with October 8,2010 clearly stamped at the top. The House was passing an entirely different bill, which was then gutted and used by the Senate as a carcass for its platform. This is wrong.

Next, lets look at the second time the House passed Obamacare. Lets search on the house.gov website for that date, Mar 21, 2010, where the "House Agreed to Changes".

http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?q=flooraction/floor-action-on-hr-4872-the-health-care-and-education-reconciliation-act (http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?q=flooraction/floor-action-on-hr-4872-the-health-care-and-education-reconciliation-act)

Quote
The nation’s historic health reform legislation, commonly referred to as the Affordable Care Act, is the consolidation of H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as amended by H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act.

On March 21, 2010, the House took up H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as passed by the U.S. Senate.  The House debated and passed H.R. 3590 by a roll call vote of 219 - 212, clearing the measure for the White House.  At the same time, the House considered H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act, which amended financing and revenue provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.  The House debated and passed H.R. 4872 on March 21, 2010, by a roll call vote of 220 – 211.

We see that during this vote Obamacare was packaged with a reconciliation bill and passed under reconciliation rules.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 09, 2013, 04:20:10 PM
If it's illegal, why hasn't the GOP challenged it in court?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 04:36:23 PM
If it's illegal, why hasn't the GOP challenged it in court?

Maybe they have. I don't have access to the the Federal US Court Database to look the many of the legal challenges to Obamacare.

Any clear headed person can see from all of the information presented here that the passing of Obamacare was not exactly above the board. It was a law born in sin. The gutting of an existing bill and using its previous votes is unmoral and wrong. Using reconciliation to finish off a bill, an expedited process which does not require bi-partisan agreement, and is meant for revenue generating budget items, is also wrong.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 09, 2013, 04:36:40 PM

Pyrolizard, here is evidence that the original bill was passed via reconciliation. First, we bring up the  Obamacare H.R. 3590 bill on govtrack.us.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590#overview (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590#overview)

Quote
Introduced - Sep 17, 2009
Passed House - Oct 08, 2009
Passed Senate with Changes    - Dec 24, 2009
House Agreed to Changes - Mar 21, 2010
Signed by the President - Mar 23, 2010

Look at the dates for the key passings.
Okay.

Firstly, it is alleged that the House first passed the Obamacare on October 8, 2010. This is factually incorrect. On October 8, 2010 the H.R. 3590 bill was a Military Housing Bill. Here is the PDF of the original bill (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr3590pcs/pdf/BILLS-111hr3590pcs.pdf) with October 8,2010 clearly stamped at the top. The House was passing an entirely different bill, which was then gutted and used by the Senate as a carcass for its platform. This is wrong.
No, it's factually correct.  H.R. 3590 passed the House on October 8, 2009, as I presume you meant.  It was then modified and passed by Senate, with the modifications being approved by the House.  There's nothing wrong with this so far, it did indeed follow the law that any modifications must be passed by both portions of Congress.

Next, lets look at the second time the House passed Obamacare. Lets search on the house.gov website for that date, Mar 21, 2010, where the "House Agreed to Changes".

http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?q=flooraction/floor-action-on-hr-4872-the-health-care-and-education-reconciliation-act (http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?q=flooraction/floor-action-on-hr-4872-the-health-care-and-education-reconciliation-act)

Quote
The nation’s historic health reform legislation, commonly referred to as the Affordable Care Act, is the consolidation of H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as amended by H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act.

On March 21, 2010, the House took up H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as passed by the U.S. Senate.  The House debated and passed H.R. 3590 by a roll call vote of 219 - 212, clearing the measure for the White House.  At the same time, the House considered H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act, which amended financing and revenue provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.  The House debated and passed H.R. 4872 on March 21, 2010, by a roll call vote of 220 – 211.

We see that during this vote Obamacare was packaged with a reconciliation bill and passed under reconciliation rules.
We see that this vote relied that both pass.  As I said, it's entirely possible that everything of substance was in the reconciliation, and there is no law against this.  There is nothing explicitly prohibiting passing a law that relies heavily on future amendment, reconciliations included.

We see that it's entirely possible for both to be rejected by the House.  They didn't, and subsequent attempts at a repeal of the ACA failed.

If you'd care to research a bit more, you'd see that the reconciliation was still in Congress as of March twenty fifth where indeed two provisions were stricken by the Byrd Rule,  after which point the Senate passed the amendment to the ACA, and soon after the House passed it once again.  Three chances to reject it, and still nothing.

What we do not see is that the ACA was limited to twenty hours of debate in the Senate, or that it only required fifty one votes in the same chamber.  Indeed it took longer than that, and indeed it got the full amount of required votes.  There are no special reconciliation requirements for the House, you realize, and H.R. 3590 was not defined as a reconciliation.  Again, it couldn't be, for both reasons I've already detailed as well as the limit of one reconciliation allowed per year.


So I'm still failing to see what your problem here is, when again the means used were entirely legitimate, much like your hero Boehner.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 05:02:05 PM
No, it's factually correct.  H.R. 3590 passed the House on October 8, 2009, as I presume you meant.  It was then modified and passed by Senate, with the modifications being approved by the House.  There's nothing wrong with this so far, it did indeed follow the law that any modifications must be passed by both portions of Congress.

H.R. 3590 passed the House on October 8, 2009, but Obamacare didn't. Taking a Military Housing bill which was originated in the House and then "amending" it once it arrived in the Senate by replacing its entire title and content with Obamacare is PURE PORNOGRAPHY. It cannot be honestly claimed afterwards that Obamacare was originated and passed in the House, as is being done. It was an entirely different bill then.

All revenue bills must originate in the House. This is one of the tenets of the Constitution.

When the Constitution was written the Senate was to be made up of members appointed by the State Governors and approved by the Legislatures. Every member of the House of Representatives was to be elected. If the Senate generated revenue bills it would be viewed as taxation without representation, since Senators were not elected and would have tyrannical powers in levying taxes. The House, with its larger numbers, was also seen as being the better gauge of the wishes of the people for spending measures.

What Harry Reid and Obama have done is unconscionable. It bypasses the system of checks and balances and is a slap in the face to our system of government.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Saddam Hussein on October 09, 2013, 05:20:44 PM
Taking a Military Housing bill which was originated in the House and then "amending" it once it arrives in the Senate by replacing its entire title and content with Obamacare is PURE PORNOGRAPHY.

Wait, what?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 09, 2013, 05:28:36 PM
No, it's factually correct.  H.R. 3590 passed the House on October 8, 2009, as I presume you meant.  It was then modified and passed by Senate, with the modifications being approved by the House.  There's nothing wrong with this so far, it did indeed follow the law that any modifications must be passed by both portions of Congress.

H.R. 3590 passed the House on October 8, 2009, but Obamacare didn't. Taking a Military Housing bill which was originated in the House and then "amending" it once it arrives in the Senate by replacing its entire title and content with Obamacare is PURE PORNOGRAPHY. It cannot be honestly claimed afterwards that Obamacare was originated and passed in the House, as is being done. It was an entirely different bill then.
Obamacare did not originate in the House, the bill that includes the provisions for Obamacare did.  Again, loopholes out the ass, that's politics.

All revenue bills must originate in the House. This is one of the tenets of the Constitution.
Correct.  Did the ACA raise taxes?  No?  It's not a revenue bill.

If I'm mistaken and the answer is yes, I'm sure the technicality is the one listed above.

When the Constitution was written the Senate was to be made up of members appointed by the State Governors and approved by the Legislatures. Every member of the House of Representatives was to be elected. If the Senate generated revenue bills it would be viewed as taxation without representation, since Senators are not elected and would have tyrannical powers in levying taxes.

What Harry Reid and Obama have done is unconscionable. It bypasses the system of checks and balances and is a slap in the face to our system of government.
You make out that what Boehner is doing ISN'T unconscionable.  Again, nearly a million people, furloughed.  That's a lot of families that are having real economic issues because of the bill not being voted on.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 09, 2013, 05:29:48 PM
Taking a Military Housing bill which was originated in the House and then "amending" it once it arrives in the Senate by replacing its entire title and content with Obamacare is PURE PORNOGRAPHY.

Wait, what?

It seems he's saying that he loves it so much that he gets sexual pleasure from it.  Such odd things Tom admits to.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 09, 2013, 05:32:34 PM
If it's illegal, why hasn't the GOP challenged it in court?

Maybe they have. I don't have access to the the Federal US Court Database to look the many of the legal challenges to Obamacare.

Any clear headed person can see from all of the information presented here that the passing of Obamacare was not exactly above the board. It was a law born in sin. The gutting of an existing bill and using its previous votes is unmoral and wrong. Using reconciliation to finish off a bill, an expedited process which does not require bi-partisan agreement, and is meant for revenue generating budget items, is also wrong.
If they have, surely the Supreme Court would have ruled by now.  And if not, how come the GOP doesn't discuss it?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DuckDodgers on October 09, 2013, 06:05:05 PM
If ACA were passed illegally, this would have been brought up sometime in the past 2 years.  The Republicans would never allow something so easy to pass them up in order to remove this law.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2013, 06:15:09 PM
Tom knows it's not illegal which is why he is resorting to such superlatives as the Bills passing being pornographic.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 06:47:27 PM
If they have, surely the Supreme Court would have ruled by now.  And if not, how come the GOP doesn't discuss it?

They do discuss it. Infact, I saw that Raul Labrador attempted to bring up (http://tinyurl.com/jw2xuu7) the shady way Obamacare was passed on a CNN interview before the topic was changed by Anderson Cooper. The subject is also brought up on other news stations (http://tinyurl.com/n4k5wnd) from time to time.

Right now over 100 lawsuits against Obamacare have been filed, and over half of them deal with unconstitutionality. Although I do not wish to go on an easter egg hunt, here's one of them (http://www.pacificlegal.org/cases/Tax-raising-Affordable-Care-Act-started-in-wrong-house-of-Congress), which seeks to declare Obamacare unconstitutional based on grounds it did not originate in the House.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 09, 2013, 07:24:39 PM
If they have, surely the Supreme Court would have ruled by now.  And if not, how come the GOP doesn't discuss it?

They do discuss it. Infact, I saw that Raul Labrador attempted to bring up (http://tinyurl.com/jw2xuu7) the shady way Obamacare was passed on a CNN interview before the topic was changed by Anderson Cooper. The subject is also brought up on other news stations (http://tinyurl.com/n4k5wnd) from time to time.

Right now over 100 lawsuits against Obamacare have been filed, and over half of them deal with unconstitutionality. Although I do not wish to go on an easter egg hunt, here's one of them (http://www.pacificlegal.org/cases/Tax-raising-Affordable-Care-Act-started-in-wrong-house-of-Congress), which seeks to declare Obamacare unconstitutional based on grounds it did not originate in the House.
Then surely our court system will prove its legality and the house needs to simply argue its case.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 07:37:28 PM
Then surely our court system will prove its legality and the house needs to simply argue its case.

Except that federal judges are not exactly unbiased when they are being selected and appointed by the President and Senate.

http://www.uscourts.gov/Common/FAQS.aspx (http://www.uscourts.gov/Common/FAQS.aspx)


Obama has stacked the court with nearly 200 federal judges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_judges_appointed_by_Barack_Obama) in his time as president.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 09, 2013, 07:50:25 PM
Then surely our court system will prove its legality and the house needs to simply argue its case.

Except that federal judges are not exactly unbiased when they are being selected and appointed by the President and Senate.

http://www.uscourts.gov/Common/FAQS.aspx (http://www.uscourts.gov/Common/FAQS.aspx)

    "Supreme Court justices, court of appeals judges, and district court judges are nominated by the President and confirmed by the United States Senate, as stated in the Constitution."

Obama has stacked the court with nearly 200 federal judges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_judges_appointed_by_Barack_Obama).

So this is UTTER PORNOGRAPHY and if the courts don't recognize it then they must be rigged? Tom must think we are talking about NASA.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 08:03:47 PM
So this is UTTER PORNOGRAPHY and if the courts don't recognize it then they must be rigged? Tom must think we are talking about NASA.

The selection of judges is rigged, but the system isn't. The constitution gives exclusive power to the President and Senate to select the judges. That's one of their sources of power.

I'm simply saying that lack of legal progress is not proof that it is not unconstitutional. A large amount of liberal judges were a problem before Obama even took office. Same sex marriage are deemed lawful one day, nullified the next. As these bills go higher and higher through the court system, so do the chances of a liberal judge dismissing the case.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2013, 08:09:00 PM
Sorry Tom, but if a court decides that the law is constitutional, then it is legal and constitutional whether you like the judges or not.  Unless you have appeals available of course.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 08:11:57 PM
Sorry Tom, but if a court decides that the law is constitutional, then it is legal and constitutional whether you like the judges or not.  Unless you have appeals available of course.

These lower and mid-level judges are just siding with the government's 'motion to dismiss' and dismissing the cases. They aren't declaring anything constitutional or unconstitutional.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 09, 2013, 08:21:32 PM
Well it looks like there is not a leg to stand on then.  It does not take long to see that this admittedly shitty tactics of gutting pre-existing bills happens all over 'merica.  I think that the Supreme Court ruled that the Individual Mandate was not considered taxation but a penalty and so it may not even qualify as a revenue bill based on prior rulings.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 09, 2013, 09:10:03 PM
Could these people be any more blatantly hypocritical?

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/104-current-congressional-republicans-who-voted-increase-debt-ceiling-under-bush?akid=11025.1845889.0ixpjz&rd=1&src=newsletter907842&t=5 (http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/104-current-congressional-republicans-who-voted-increase-debt-ceiling-under-bush?akid=11025.1845889.0ixpjz&rd=1&src=newsletter907842&t=5)
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 09, 2013, 11:42:50 PM
Could these people be any more blatantly hypocritical?

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/104-current-congressional-republicans-who-voted-increase-debt-ceiling-under-bush?akid=11025.1845889.0ixpjz&rd=1&src=newsletter907842&t=5 (http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/104-current-congressional-republicans-who-voted-increase-debt-ceiling-under-bush?akid=11025.1845889.0ixpjz&rd=1&src=newsletter907842&t=5)

Except in 2004 the United States was engaged in war. Wars are meant to be temporary. A bill which forces a government take over of one sixth of the US Economy, and which imposes new and higher taxes on Americans, is not.

You might as well quote me statistics on how the House raised the debt during World War II as to make such a comparison.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 10, 2013, 03:30:32 AM
Could these people be any more blatantly hypocritical?

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/104-current-congressional-republicans-who-voted-increase-debt-ceiling-under-bush?akid=11025.1845889.0ixpjz&rd=1&src=newsletter907842&t=5 (http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/104-current-congressional-republicans-who-voted-increase-debt-ceiling-under-bush?akid=11025.1845889.0ixpjz&rd=1&src=newsletter907842&t=5)

Except in 2004 the United States was engaged in war. Wars are meant to be temporary. A bill which forces a government take over of one sixth of the US Economy, and which imposes new and higher taxes on Americans, is not.

You might as well quote me statistics on how the House raised the debt during World War II as to make such a comparison.
Well, we've technically been at war for over 10 years soooo.....
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Rama Set on October 10, 2013, 04:47:15 AM
Bush also cut taxes while he was I power. Decreasing revenue while incurring a major expense is extremely irresponsible yet the government was not shutdown over that. People also like to gloss over the economic crash that Obama dealt with.

Recession + A trillion dollars in economic stimulus=crappy deficits.

America should really consider cutting like 500B from its defense budget though. I mean really. It's retarded.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: markjo on October 10, 2013, 04:34:24 PM
Well, we've technically been at war for over 10 years soooo.....
If you want to get technical, then technically, the US hasn't declared war on anyone since WWII.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 11, 2013, 06:44:48 AM
http://www.aallnet.org/main-menu/Publications/llj/LLJ-Archives/Vol-105/no-2/2013-7.pdf (http://www.aallnet.org/main-menu/Publications/llj/LLJ-Archives/Vol-105/no-2/2013-7.pdf)

wasnt sure of the best place to put this, but here is a legislative history of the aca.  it's interesting
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 14, 2013, 07:31:19 AM
The GOP's little rule change they hoped you wouldn't notice (http://#)
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 14, 2013, 07:42:39 AM
The GOP's little rule change they hoped you wouldn't notice (http://#)
Saw it on facebook but never watched it.

Guess we know who wants to keep the government shutdown now eh?

I wonder if they'll rescind it once this crisis is over.  I mean, they wouldn't want the democrats to have that kind of power now would they?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 14, 2013, 07:58:56 AM
Here is the resolution itself, passed with virtually no bipartisan support on Oct 1.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368)

"Sec. 2. Any motion pursuant to clause 4 of rule XXII relating to House Joint Resolution 59 may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html)
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 14, 2013, 08:12:02 AM
Here is the resolution itself, passed with virtually no bipartisan support on Oct 1.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368)

"Sec. 2. Any motion pursuant to clause 4 of rule XXII relating to House Joint Resolution 59 may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html)
Virtually?  What democrat voted for it?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 14, 2013, 08:20:33 AM
Here is the resolution itself, passed with virtually no bipartisan support on Oct 1.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368)

"Sec. 2. Any motion pursuant to clause 4 of rule XXII relating to House Joint Resolution 59 may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html)
Virtually?  What democrat voted for it?

Apparently 7 of them did, with 9 republicans voting against.  I was pretty surprised by that, too.  Not really sure what they were thinking on that one.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 14, 2013, 09:23:36 AM
Here is the resolution itself, passed with virtually no bipartisan support on Oct 1.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368)

"Sec. 2. Any motion pursuant to clause 4 of rule XXII relating to House Joint Resolution 59 may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html)
Virtually?  What democrat voted for it?

Apparently 7 of them did, with 9 republicans voting against.  I was pretty surprised by that, too.  Not really sure what they were thinking on that one.
Probably got bribed.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 11:00:29 AM
Why are you whining about a rule which was fairly passed?

The House has decided that the President must be forced to negotiate with Congress on the debt limit and shutdown, and are forcing the matter.

The intention of the debt limit is to occasionally force Congress and the President to wrangle and negotiate over federal spending. The President cannot simply spend wrecklessly and take out new loans with a blank check year after year. The debt ceiling is a part of our system's checks and balances which demands that the President negotiates with Congress before the debt ceiling is breached.

For Obama to refuse to negotiate on the debt ceiling is a slap in the face to our system of government. Rants about "holding the government hostage" are childish. No modern president has refused to negotiate with Congress over the debt ceiling. The purpose of the debt ceiling is to force negoatiations between the branches.

The country isn't going to default if the debt ceiling is not raised. The doom and gloom is liberal hype. Every month the federal government brings in $250 bn in taxes, and interest payment on the debt is $23 bn. By cutting spending the crisis could be averted.

See: Mr. Obama, if our government can’t borrow more money, it still need not default (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/09/mr-obama-if-washington-cant-borrow-more-money-it-need-not-default/?intcmp=obinsite)

The only person who can cause the country to default is the president himself.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tausami on October 14, 2013, 11:01:50 AM
No, that's clever on the dem's part. This makes the GOP look bad. Really, I want to know what idiot in the GOP decided to do this. It's not going to end well for them in the next election.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 11:07:15 AM
No, that's clever on the dem's part. This makes the GOP look bad. Really, I want to know what idiot in the GOP decided to do this. It's not going to end well for them in the next election.

I see a rule which was fairly passed, got bipartisan support, and was passed by the majority of the majority. The majority rules the House, and if they say that failed bills cannot be brought up over and over and over again on the floor until they pass, then they can't.

Obama must go to conference on the debt ceiling. It is not "automatically raised" for any president.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Space Cowgirl on October 14, 2013, 11:15:57 AM
Here is the resolution itself, passed with virtually no bipartisan support on Oct 1.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/hres368)

"Sec. 2. Any motion pursuant to clause 4 of rule XXII relating to House Joint Resolution 59 may be offered only by the Majority Leader or his designee."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/13/house-republicans-rules-change_n_4095129.html)
Virtually?  What democrat voted for it?

Apparently 7 of them did, with 9 republicans voting against.  I was pretty surprised by that, too.  Not really sure what they were thinking on that one.
Probably got bribed.

Blue dog democrats.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Lorddave on October 14, 2013, 11:21:53 AM
No, that's clever on the dem's part. This makes the GOP look bad. Really, I want to know what idiot in the GOP decided to do this. It's not going to end well for them in the next election.

I see a rule which was fairly passed, got bipartisan support, and was passed by the majority of the majority. The majority rules the House, and if they say that failed bills cannot be brought up over and over and over again on the floor until they pass, then they can't.

Obama must go to conference on the debt ceiling. It is not "automatically raised" for any president.
Actually the rule now says that only 1 person can put bills us.  So if he wants to put up the same bill 42 times, knowing it won't pass, he can.


Tom, question:
If the house puts up a bill that says only Republicans can put bills up for Vote and it passes, is that ok?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 11:37:49 AM
Actually the rule now says that only 1 person can put bills us.  So if he wants to put up the same bill 42 times, knowing it won't pass, he can.

The rule change only affects failed bills, bills which are in disagreement.

House Resolution 368
 Sep 30, 2013


Clause 4 of Rule XXII reads


Quote
Tom, question:
If the house puts up a bill that says only Republicans can put bills up for Vote and it passes, is that ok?

It's their House and their rules.

What the Republicans are doing is no different than when Harry Reid refuses to put up the House's bill up for a vote at the Senate, which reopens the Women, Infants, and Children (WIC) federal assistance program, or when he refuses to put up one of the many bills the House has passed to fund the government. Majority also rules at the Senate.

I don't see all the news articles from the liberal media accusing the Senate of refusing to put up House bills up for a vote, of which there have been many.

Obama and the Senate are demanding to take out new debt on the American public without the need to go to conference. This is absurd in every way. It is not how the government works. The GOP is doing what they are doing because they believe that they are in the right on this. The debt limit is not to be "automatically raised."
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on October 14, 2013, 11:44:46 AM
I often find it amusing and frustrating when I see people blindly support a party because that's 'their' party no matter what.


The Republicans are really screwing themselves over here. There's no other way to look at it. The underhand tactics are becoming apparent. They aren't interested in the democratic process.

I'd just like to point out that I have absolutely no affiliation with either party.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 11:49:17 AM
The Republicans are really screwing themselves over here. There's no other way to look at it. The underhand tactics are becoming apparent. They aren't interested in the democratic process.

The democratic process also says that the majority rules. A failed presidential candidate does not get to be president of the 45% of Americans who voted for him. Nor does he get to call a presidental vote over and over and over until he wins. Now, since it is apparent that this bill was passed by the majority in the House, it is clear that YOU are not interested in the democratic process.

The House Republicans simply passed this bill to be on equal footing with the Senate, where majority rules absolutely. It was necessary to force the President to go into conference.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on October 14, 2013, 11:56:15 AM

The House Republicans simply passed this bill to be on equal footing with the Senate, where majority rules absolutely. It was necessary to force the President to go into conference.

No they passed a bill and changed the rules underhandedly. They've changed your system so that a single official can dictate what gets voted on and what doesn't.

Surely you can see how that could be wrong?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 14, 2013, 11:57:42 AM
Also, didn't a majority of the house want to call a vote on the government shutdown. You should be clamoring for that shouldn't you?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 12:02:10 PM
No they passed a bill and changed the rules underhandedly. They've changed your system so that a single official can dictate what gets voted on and what doesn't.

Surely you can see how that could be wrong?

They've changed their rules of procedure, not the "law," not the "consitution".

They changed their rules to be more democratic, where the majority rules.

Also, didn't a majority of the house want to call a vote on the government shutdown. You should be clamoring for that shouldn't you?

They didn't.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 14, 2013, 12:03:20 PM
No they passed a bill and changed the rules underhandedly. They've changed your system so that a single official can dictate what gets voted on and what doesn't.

Surely you can see how that could be wrong?

They've changed their rules of procedure, not the "law," not the "consitution".

They changed their rules to be more democratic, where the majority rules.

Yes, just before the shutdown too. Coincidence?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 12:06:08 PM
No they passed a bill and changed the rules underhandedly. They've changed your system so that a single official can dictate what gets voted on and what doesn't.

Surely you can see how that could be wrong?

They've changed their rules of procedure, not the "law," not the "consitution".

They changed their rules to be more democratic, where the majority rules.

Yes, just before the shutdown too. Coincidence?

No, it's not a coincidence. This measure of making the House more democratic was implemented to force Obama and the Senate into confrence. The House majoirity is not content with signing the blank check they've asked for.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 14, 2013, 12:07:29 PM
Why are you whining about a rule which was fairly passed?
Same reason you are with a fairly passed bill.

The House has decided that the President must be forced to negotiate with Congress on the debt limit and shutdown, and are forcing the matter.

The intention of the debt limit is to occasionally force Congress and the President to wrangle and negotiate over federal spending. The President cannot simply spend wrecklessly and take out new loans with a blank check year after year. The debt ceiling is a part of our system's checks and balances which demands that the President negotiates with Congress before the debt ceiling is breached.
Do you think the President makes the budget?  That's entirely Congress.  The most the President can do is suggest a budget, which is then subject to any modifications by Congress and many other committees, and can even be thrown out entirely.  On top of that, whatever budget is passed, the President must go through with.  If the budget says there's x more spending than the tax income, he has to borrow to make it work, because that's the budget and he has to follow it.

For Obama to refuse to negotiate on the debt ceiling is a slap in the face to our system of government. Rants about "holding the government hostage" are childish. No modern president has refused to negotiate with Congress over the debt ceiling. The purpose of the debt ceiling is to force negoatiations between the branches.
For Boehner to refuse to negotiate on the budget crisis is a slap in the face to our system of government.  Rants about "refusal to negotiate the debt ceiling" are childish.  No modern speaker has refused to allow a budget to pass simply because he and his constituents disagree with a legally passed program it funds.

As for the purpose of the debt ceiling, citation?  It seems to me the likely purpose of the debt ceiling is to keep sure that we're not accruing large amounts of debt without notice.

The country isn't going to default if the debt ceiling is not raised. The doom and gloom is liberal hype. Every month the federal government brings in $250 bn in taxes, and interest payment on the debt is $23 bn. By cutting spending the crisis could be averted.
Excellent!  Now we just need to pass a budget so we can get everything up and running, and find the extraneous spending - like the military, soldiers have been found complaining of oversupplying and paying eight to ten thousand times the manufacturing cost of an item due to military contracts.  This, as well as things like shooting at brand new military vehicles for training, wasting excessive amounts of ammunition, and end of the year splurging to spend the entire allotted budget, should be eliminated.  Agreed?

See: Mr. Obama, if our government can’t borrow more money, it still need not default (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/09/mr-obama-if-washington-cant-borrow-more-money-it-need-not-default/?intcmp=obinsite)

The only person who can cause the country to default is the president himself.
Correct.  And the only people willing to play the game that would put the President in this situation are the Republican Congress members themselves, the Speaker of the House specifically.  If Boehner would simply put the budget up for a vote, the President wouldn't have to choose between conceding to ludicrous demands and letting the country's economy go to hell.


The democratic process also says that the majority rules. A failed presidential candidate does not get to be president of the 45% of Americans who voted for him. Nor does he get to call a presidental vote over and over and over until he wins. Now, since it is apparent that this bill was passed by the majority in the House, it is clear that YOU are not interested in the democratic process.
You realize you're siding with the party that is calling for a repeal of the ACA over and over again, and is attempting to effectively gut a law passed by the majority of the House?  They're not doing it in the interest of cutting spending, they'd actually be making spending cuts in other areas if that were the case.

The House Republicans simply passed this bill to be on equal footing with the Senate, where majority rules absolutely. It was necessary to force the President to go into conference.
[/quote]
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 14, 2013, 12:08:55 PM
No they passed a bill and changed the rules underhandedly. They've changed your system so that a single official can dictate what gets voted on and what doesn't.

Surely you can see how that could be wrong?

They've changed their rules of procedure, not the "law," not the "consitution".

They changed their rules to be more democratic, where the majority rules.
Sorry friend, the idea of democracy is that everyone gets a say, not that majority rules.  It often results in majority rules, but that's not democracy in a nutshell.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on October 14, 2013, 12:09:06 PM
No they passed a bill and changed the rules underhandedly. They've changed your system so that a single official can dictate what gets voted on and what doesn't.

Surely you can see how that could be wrong?

They've changed their rules of procedure, not the "law," not the "consitution".

They changed their rules to be more democratic, where the majority rules.

Yes, just before the shutdown too. Coincidence?

No, it's not a coincidence. This measure of making the House more democratic was implemented to force Obama and the Senate into confrence. The House majoirity is not content with signing the blank check they've asked for.

How is it democratic if one man can stop something being voted on? It might be forcing the democrats to make consensus but it's under one mans terms. That is not democratic.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 14, 2013, 12:09:22 PM
No they passed a bill and changed the rules underhandedly. They've changed your system so that a single official can dictate what gets voted on and what doesn't.

Surely you can see how that could be wrong?

They've changed their rules of procedure, not the "law," not the "consitution".

They changed their rules to be more democratic, where the majority rules.

Also, didn't a majority of the house want to call a vote on the government shutdown. You should be clamoring for that shouldn't you?

They didn't.

Yes they did. Please provide a source saying a majority did not want to vote to end the shutdown.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: rottingroom on October 14, 2013, 12:10:46 PM
No they passed a bill and changed the rules underhandedly. They've changed your system so that a single official can dictate what gets voted on and what doesn't.

Surely you can see how that could be wrong?

They've changed their rules of procedure, not the "law," not the "consitution".

They changed their rules to be more democratic, where the majority rules.
Sorry friend, the idea of democracy is that everyone gets a say, not that majority rules.  It often results in majority rules, but that's not democracy in a nutshell.

Tom thinks this country is a democracy when in fact it's a republic.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: DDDDAts all folks on October 14, 2013, 12:14:24 PM
If this were the other way around and the Democrats were using these tactics etc... I can guarantee Tom would be arguing against the Democrats.

He's blindly following 'his' party line.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Genius on October 14, 2013, 12:14:40 PM
Get a new government.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 12:15:29 PM
Quote from: Pyrolizard
Do you think the President makes the budget?  That's entirely Congress.  The most the President can do is suggest a budget, which is then subject to any modifications by Congress and many other committees, and can even be thrown out entirely.  On top of that, whatever budget is passed, the President must go through with.  If the budget says there's x more spending than the tax income, he has to borrow to make it work, because that's the budget and he has to follow it.

Hold up right there. You need to do your research. Obama has not passed a budget throught Congress in the entire time he's been in office. The government is being operated WITHOUT A BUDGET.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 14, 2013, 12:32:27 PM
Quote from: Pyrolizard
Do you think the President makes the budget?  That's entirely Congress.  The most the President can do is suggest a budget, which is then subject to any modifications by Congress and many other committees, and can even be thrown out entirely.  On top of that, whatever budget is passed, the President must go through with.  If the budget says there's x more spending than the tax income, he has to borrow to make it work, because that's the budget and he has to follow it.

Hold up right there. You need to do your research. Obama has not passed a budget through Congress in years. The government is being operated WITHOUT A BUDGET.

Did I say a word about how the government has been functioning?  Nope.  I've said that the President has no say on the budget, other than his initial suggestion which is subject to as much change as those in the process feel necessary. 

Although that said I can show you Obama's budget proposals for at least back to 2011, possibly further although I haven't checked, and while his proposals may have been late as was the case with his 2014 proposal, he has submitted them.  I also can't say they've passed, but that's not his job to do, and if not he isn't at fault.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 14, 2013, 01:42:27 PM
I love that it's apparently unethical for the Democrats to use the totally legal and legitimate process of reconciliation (a process that has been successfully used in the past by both parties) to further their interests in passing health care reform; but, it's totally legitimate for the GOP to change the rules to prevent the government from being funded until the Democrats meet their demands.

Why are you whining about a rule which was fairly passed?
Why are you whining about reconciliation?  Why are you whining about the President's unwillingness to 'negotiate'?  Those things are also perfectly legal, and yet to them you apply a double standard.  By the way, did you ever figure out what the GOP negotiating position is?  As in, what's the compromise they're willing to accept?

Quote
The House has decided that the President must be forced to negotiate with Congress on the debt limit and shutdown, and are forcing the matter.

Welcome to the conversation.  This is the criticism of the GOP.  Half of the house ought not be able to force the government to shut down until their political demands are met.

That the GOP would go so far as to prevent the House from even voting on the issue is even worse.  They've manipulated the rules of order such that literally one person in now in charge of the decision to fund our government or not, and only until his political demands are met.

It's despotism.  It's disgusting.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 02:18:45 PM
I love that it's apparently unethical for the Democrats to use the totally legal and legitimate process of reconciliation (a process that has been successfully used in the past by both parties) to further their interests in passing health care reform; but, it's totally legitimate for the GOP to change the rules to prevent the government from being funded until the Democrats meet their demands.

Not 'the rules', their rules. It's their house. It's their rules. I see a fair vote on the issue, in which the majorty of the house decided to institute a rule preventing failed bills to be brought up for a vote again and again until they got the result desired.

Majority rules is the heart of democracy. Mitt Romney did not get to hold votes on his presidency again and again until he won. He did not get to be president for the percentage of americans who voted for him. Majority rules. That's democracy.

This controversy is in stark contrast to sinister method in which the Senate took a Military Housing bill in mid-legislation and gutted it to use as Obamacare. They are pretending that Obamacare was started in and passed by the House. This is unconstitutional. As per the constitution, all revenue generating bills must originate in the House, and go through its procedures and comities. The bill that passed the House was not Obamacare.

The method used to finalize the bill into law, the reconciliation process you say is "legal and legitimate," is neither. Using it to pass Obamacare flies in the face of the Byrd rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byrd_Rule), which is part of the Congressional Budget law.

Sen Kent Conrad: Reconciliation Won't Work (http://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2010/02/a-separate-headline-conrad-reconciliation-wont-work/36785/)


As we can see, this is a matter of the House legally changing its own informal rules of procedure vs. an unconstitutional act and an illegal action.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 02:43:28 PM
Yes they did. Please provide a source saying a majority did not want to vote to end the shutdown.

I will correct myself. The House did vote to end the Shutdown. They've passed numerous bills which would reopen the government and sent the bills to the Senate, where they were rejected or not put up for a vote.

The majority of the House do not want to pass a "clean" continuing resolution bill which allows Obama to continue spending wrecklessly, without concessions or the need of passing a budget.

The House Democrats need to get a majority of representative signatures to force a vote in the House for their Clean CR and they have not yet gotten the signatures (http://thehill.com/homenews/house/328207-house-dems-sign-petition-for-clean-funding-bill).
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 14, 2013, 03:00:20 PM
Ignoring me again, Tom?  You seem good at that, just run away when confronted.  You're a bit of a democrat like that, aren't you?

I love that it's apparently unethical for the Democrats to use the totally legal and legitimate process of reconciliation (a process that has been successfully used in the past by both parties) to further their interests in passing health care reform; but, it's totally legitimate for the GOP to change the rules to prevent the government from being funded until the Democrats meet their demands.

Not 'the rules', their rules. It's their house. It's their rules. I see a fair vote on the issue, in which the majorty of the house decided to institute a rule preventing failed bills to be brought up for a vote again and again until they got the result desired.

Majority rules is the heart of democracy. Mitt Romney did not get to hold votes on his presidency again and again until he won. He did not get to be president for the percentage of americans who voted for him. Majority rules. That's democracy.

This controversy is in stark contrast to sinister method in which the Senate took a Military Housing bill in mid-legislation and gutted it to use as Obamacare. They are pretending that Obamacare was started in and passed by the House. This is unconstitutional. As per the constitution, all revenue generating bills must originate in the House, and go through its procedures and comities. The bill that passed the House was not Obamacare.

The method used to finalize the bill into law, the reconciliation process you say is "legal and legitimate," is neither. Using it to pass Obamacare flies in the face of the Byrd rule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byrd_Rule), which is part of the Congressional Budget law.

Sen Kent Conrad: Reconciliation Won't Work (http://www.theatlantic.com/personal/archive/2010/02/a-separate-headline-conrad-reconciliation-wont-work/36785/)

    "...reconciliation cannot be used to pass comprehensive health care reform. It won't work. It won't work because it was never designed for that kind of significant legislation. It was designed for deficit reduction... The major package of health care reform cannot move through the reconciliation process. It will not work... It will not work because of the Byrd rule which says anything that doesn't score for budget purposes has to be eliminated. That would eliminate all the delivery system reform, all the insurance market reform, all of those things the experts tell us are really the most important parts of this bill. The only possible role that I can see for reconciliation would be make modest changes in the major package to improve affordability, to deal with what share of Medicaid expansion the federal government pays, those kinds of issues, which is the traditional role for reconciliation in health care."

As we can see, this is a matter of the House legally changing its own informal rules of procedure vs. an unconstitutional act and an illegal action.
Now, are we still going on about how Obamacare was passed by reconciliation?  It was heavily amended by reconciliation, true, but not passed by such.  Unless you care to cite a source specifically saying House Resolution 3590 was passed by reconciliation?  Official records as well, if you would, since the only record you've given so far is that of HR 3590 and it's reconciliation bill being voted on in the House at the same time.

Remember, Tom, if you can show that HR 3590 was a reconciliation bill, it's violated the law that allows reconciliation twice by not amending an existing law and by being one of two reconciliation bills passed in a year, and should have had no legal ground to stand on.  Show this to Boehner, or more appropriately his people.  They'll get it to the Supreme Court faster than we can say 'Finally'.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 03:10:39 PM
I provided evidence that Obamacare was passed via reconciliation two pages ago. Obamacare was consolidated and combined with a bill H.R. 4872, the "Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act"

Pyrolizard, here is evidence that the original bill was passed via reconciliation. First, we bring up the  Obamacare H.R. 3590 bill on govtrack.us.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590#overview (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590#overview)

Quote
Introduced - Sep 17, 2009
Passed House - Oct 08, 2009
Passed Senate with Changes    - Dec 24, 2009
House Agreed to Changes - Mar 21, 2010
Signed by the President - Mar 23, 2010

Look at the dates for the key passings.

Firstly, it is alleged that the House first passed the Obamacare on October 8, 2010. This is factually incorrect. On October 8, 2010 the H.R. 3590 bill was a Military Housing Bill. Here is the PDF of the original bill (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr3590pcs/pdf/BILLS-111hr3590pcs.pdf) with October 8,2010 clearly stamped at the top. The House was passing an entirely different bill, which was then gutted and used by the Senate as a carcass for its platform. This is wrong.

Next, lets look at the second time the House passed Obamacare. Lets search on the house.gov website for that date, Mar 21, 2010, where the "House Agreed to Changes".

http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?q=flooraction/floor-action-on-hr-4872-the-health-care-and-education-reconciliation-act (http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?q=flooraction/floor-action-on-hr-4872-the-health-care-and-education-reconciliation-act)

Quote
Floor Action on H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act

The nation’s historic health reform legislation, commonly referred to as the Affordable Care Act, is the consolidation of H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as amended by H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act.

On March 21, 2010, the House took up H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as passed by the U.S. Senate.  The House debated and passed H.R. 3590 by a roll call vote of 219 - 212, clearing the measure for the White House.  At the same time, the House considered H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act, which amended financing and revenue provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.  The House debated and passed H.R. 4872 on March 21, 2010, by a roll call vote of 220 – 211.

We see that during this vote Obamacare was packaged with a reconciliation bill and passed under reconciliation rules.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 14, 2013, 03:28:41 PM
I provided evidence that Obamacare was passed via reconciliation two pages ago. Obamacare was consolidated and combined with a bill H.R. 4872, the "Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act"

Pyrolizard, here is evidence that the original bill was passed via reconciliation. First, we bring up the  Obamacare H.R. 3590 bill on govtrack.us.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590#overview (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr3590#overview)

Quote
Introduced - Sep 17, 2009
Passed House - Oct 08, 2009
Passed Senate with Changes    - Dec 24, 2009
House Agreed to Changes - Mar 21, 2010
Signed by the President - Mar 23, 2010

Look at the dates for the key passings.

Firstly, it is alleged that the House first passed the Obamacare on October 8, 2010. This is factually incorrect. On October 8, 2010 the H.R. 3590 bill was a Military Housing Bill. Here is the PDF of the original bill (http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111hr3590pcs/pdf/BILLS-111hr3590pcs.pdf) with October 8,2010 clearly stamped at the top. The House was passing an entirely different bill, which was then gutted and used by the Senate as a carcass for its platform. This is wrong.

Next, lets look at the second time the House passed Obamacare. Lets search on the house.gov website for that date, Mar 21, 2010, where the "House Agreed to Changes".

http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?q=flooraction/floor-action-on-hr-4872-the-health-care-and-education-reconciliation-act (http://democrats.energycommerce.house.gov/index.php?q=flooraction/floor-action-on-hr-4872-the-health-care-and-education-reconciliation-act)

Quote
Floor Action on H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act

The nation’s historic health reform legislation, commonly referred to as the Affordable Care Act, is the consolidation of H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as amended by H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act.

On March 21, 2010, the House took up H.R. 3590, the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, as passed by the U.S. Senate.  The House debated and passed H.R. 3590 by a roll call vote of 219 - 212, clearing the measure for the White House.  At the same time, the House considered H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act, which amended financing and revenue provisions of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.  The House debated and passed H.R. 4872 on March 21, 2010, by a roll call vote of 220 – 211.

We see that during this vote Obamacare was packaged with a reconciliation bill and passed under reconciliation rules.

And I rebutted with, this does not say Obamacare was a reconciliation bill, only that it was reliant on the reconciliation passing.  I also reminded that there are no special rules for reconciliation in the House.  HR 3590 did not return to the Senate because no modifications were made in the House, so what reconciliation rules exactly were these?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 14, 2013, 03:40:56 PM
And I rebutted with, this does not say Obamacare was a reconciliation bill, only that it was reliant on the reconciliation passing.  I also reminded that there are no special rules for reconciliation in the House.  HR 3590 did not return to the Senate because no modifications were made in the House, so what reconciliation rules exactly were these?

If it wasn't passed under reconciliation rules, then why does the link say that the ACA was consolidated and passed in tandem with a reconciliation bill?

It says right at the top of the page that it was a "Floor Action on H.R. 4872, the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act" and then in the first sentence that the ACA was consolidated with it.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Pyrolizard on October 14, 2013, 03:48:48 PM
And I rebutted with, this does not say Obamacare was a reconciliation bill, only that it was reliant on the reconciliation passing.  I also reminded that there are no special rules for reconciliation in the House.  HR 3590 did not return to the Senate because no modifications were made in the House, so what reconciliation rules exactly were these?

If it wasn't passed as a reconciliation bill, or under reconciliation rules, then why does the link say that Obamacare was consolidated with a reconciliation bill?

Are you honestly arguing that the Democrats combined the ACA with a reconciliation bill to pass it the normal way?

Tom, you understand what consolidated means, right?  To join together?  As in, to join the law and reconciliation into a whole program, in this case?  They say that because the law was passed with a provision that the reconciliation institute the meat of the law.  It would have been much less without it, but the amendment passed independent of the ACA.  Again, as I've stated before, I can show you it in the Senate after the ACA already passed and was signed into law.

I'm not arguing that most of the provisions in Obamacare were in the reconciliation, that is indeed the case.  I'm just arguing that the ACA itself was not passed as a reconciliation bill.  That is to say, the bill that the reconciliation amended was not, itself, a reconciliation.


And yes.  Because that, precisely, is the normal way.  It's not the only normal way, but it's perfectly legal and fair, no laws or provisions against it and it is entirely by the books.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Ocius on October 14, 2013, 03:50:29 PM
There isn't enough time to draft a complete budget. The GOP will just have to fight the ACA later. The ACA going into full effect will be considerably less damaging than a default, if it ends up being damaging at all.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 14, 2013, 06:00:48 PM
a bunch of stuff about reconciliation

I noticed that you removed the link to the pdf I posted.  Is that because you finally read it?

Quote
In   this   sense,   ACA’s   passage   serves   as   an   illustrative   example   
of   modern   lawmaking,   especially   for   major   initiatives.   It   is   the   rule   now,   not   the   
exception.

I'd quote more, but the formatting is awful.  You can complain all you like that the ACA was ultimately passed illegally.  Even the GOP disagrees with you.  If you read the section titled "Reconciliation," you'll find that it's a common legislative tool used frequently by both parties.

Either way, I can't find any source that agrees that the ACA itself was passed through reconciliation.  Several major policy changes were made to the bill through reconciliation, but again, that's par for the course.

I'm not in love with the source, but this is actually a pretty decent description of the reconciliation events, including some additional details provided in the comments section: http://www.theattackdemocrat.com/2012/07/fact-check-budget-reconciliation-and.html (http://www.theattackdemocrat.com/2012/07/fact-check-budget-reconciliation-and.html)
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Alchemist21 on October 14, 2013, 11:28:45 PM
(http://i43.tinypic.com/11giuzb.jpg)

Ironic, ain't it?
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: garygreen on October 15, 2013, 10:20:18 PM
Please, Tom, tell us more about this supposed 'blank check' that the GOP is protecting us from.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/05/24/who-is-the-smallest-government-spender-since-eisenhower-would-you-believe-its-barack-obama/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2012/05/24/who-is-the-smallest-government-spender-since-eisenhower-would-you-believe-its-barack-obama/)

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/oct/08/dennis-ross/rep-dennis-ross-says-us-spending-has-fallen-two-st/ (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/oct/08/dennis-ross/rep-dennis-ross-says-us-spending-has-fallen-two-st/)
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Space Cowgirl on October 16, 2013, 03:48:59 PM
So the shutdown is over for now, but we can still talk about the GOP's insanity!


http://nypost.com/2013/10/14/gopers-eye-donald-trump-for-governor-run/ (http://nypost.com/2013/10/14/gopers-eye-donald-trump-for-governor-run/)

Quote
Increasingly desperate New York Republicans, seeking the political equivalent of a Hail Mary pass, are trying to get Donald Trump to run against Gov. Cuomo next year, The Post has learned.

They’re seeking to make the case that while Trump is only an apprentice politician, he’s the only Republican on the horizon who has the name recognition, guts and money to tell Cuomo, “You’re fired!”

They’re also arguing that Trump could launch a 2016 presidential run — which he has clearly been eyeing with his criticisms of President Obama and Washington — by first winning the election for governor.

So far, Trump, who only recently learned of the effort, which is backed by state GOP Chairman Ed Cox and other party leaders, hasn’t said a flat “no.’’

They need to butter him up a little bit. I'm sure if the campaign coincides with The Apprentice he can promote both at the same time.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Saddam Hussein on October 16, 2013, 04:12:31 PM
I love how even the Post is acknowledging how silly it is.
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Ocius on October 16, 2013, 04:19:45 PM
So the shutdown is over for now, but we can still talk about the GOP's insanity!

Not yet!
Title: Re: The GOP has gone insane
Post by: Alchemist21 on October 16, 2013, 07:33:27 PM
The GOP can get one thing right, and that's to cut taxes.