The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Q&A => Topic started by: Art on July 13, 2012, 10:24:31 AM

Title: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Art on July 13, 2012, 10:24:31 AM
Hi,
First post, from Australia, where we like to live on the edge!!!
I came straight here with questions from any genuine believer rather than for debate (although I'm up for one).
I have spent some time reading the FAQ, and some posts. Understand you don't want to answer
the same questions over & over, etc. Forgive that I can't digest the entire concept and forum quickly!

Funny that this week I considered what I'd think of the lunar cycle if I lived in an era when the majority believed the Earth was flat.

Q1: I read about the GPS system in the FAQ, but no information on what are called geostationary satellites.
These are the type that hover over a continent transmitting pay TV among other information.
According to a flat Earth theory, these would have to hover over the Earth in an almost stationery position
for many years with very little deviation in their position, since many dishes on Earth are focussing their beam
into a LNB connected to their sat TV decoders.
Does that not sound like a greater feat then sending a shuttle to the moon?

Q2:
How is a computer program able to use trigonometry to calculate Sun & moon rise and set times (past, present, and future)
using formulas that take into account fictitious diameters of celestial bodies and degrees of atmospheric refraction?
Could a flat Earth theory based formula ever possibly be used to calculate past present and future Sun & moon rise and set times?
I would like to see one that takes into account FET movement, distance, and size of these celestial objects.

Thanks, Art.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 13, 2012, 12:42:32 PM
Q1: I read about the GPS system in the FAQ, but no information on what are called geostationary satellites.

Hello, Art.  Welcome to TFES.  Did you read the Wiki (http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page), as well as the FAQ?

Quote
Q: "What about satellites? How do they orbit the Earth?"
A: Since sustained spaceflight is not possible, satellites cannot orbit the Earth. The signals we supposedly receive from them are either broadcast from towers or any number of possible pseudolites. However, temporary space-flight is possible.


Q2:
How is a computer program able to use trigonometry to calculate Sun & moon rise and set times (past, present, and future)
using formulas that take into account fictitious diameters of celestial bodies and degrees of atmospheric refraction?

Why should TFES bother to make computer programs to calculate the sunrise and sunset?  Obviously, these already exist.  That does not mean they are using round Earth data in these computer programs.  It just means they tell you they are.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: ThinkingMan on July 13, 2012, 01:24:22 PM
Art, I would be careful with questions about space travel, space flight, satellites, moon landings, mars missions, gravity, celestial orbits, or really anything of that nature on these forums. Most of the people that you will get responses from to questions like that either believe, or act like the believe it is all lies and conspiracy to steal taxpayer's money. Just a helpful hint from another new member of the forums! :)
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Art on July 13, 2012, 08:41:51 PM
Hmm, well I didn't expect a reply with a lot of quotes that didn't address any of my questions at all.

Geo-stationery satellites have nothing to do with the GPS system.
They are said to orbit the Earth at the same speed as the Earth's rotation,
so from our perspective, they remain stationery in the sky.
The equipment that receives their signal is quite rudimentary.
The dish must be pointed directly at the satellite with little margin for error to receive a signal from them,
The dish is not pointed at a tower on Earth, or any object moving across the sky,
It sits on the side of a house for years pointing in the same direction.

Quote
Why should TFES bother to make computer programs to calculate the sunrise and sunset?  Obviously, these already exist.  That does not mean they are using round Earth data in these computer programs.  It just means they tell you they are.
You are correct that they do exist.
Problem for you is, the authors of such algorithms begin with the presupposition that the Earth and celestial bodies are round,
take into account the diameter of the Sun & moon which is false according to the flat Earth theory of a 35 mile wide Sun,
and produce results which are correct to the minute assuming the observer is looking at an apparent flat horizon (no mountains in the way of the Sunset view).






Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 14, 2012, 06:33:07 AM
Hmm, well I didn't expect a reply with a lot of quotes that didn't address any of my questions at all.

Geo-stationery satellites have nothing to do with the GPS system.
They are said to orbit the Earth at the same speed as the Earth's rotation,
so from our perspective, they remain stationery in the sky.
The equipment that receives their signal is quite rudimentary.
The dish must be pointed directly at the satellite with little margin for error to receive a signal from them,
The dish is not pointed at a tower on Earth, or any object moving across the sky,
It sits on the side of a house for years pointing in the same direction.


I pointed you to the Wiki that directly discusses satellites.  How  is that not answering your question?

Also, you are making a lot of assumptions.  Who knows what those dishes are pointing at.  All you or I know is that we must point them in a certain direction and and angle to get a signal.  We are told by the "Satellite Company" that they are pointing at satellites.  It would be odd if they told us that they were pointing at something other than a satellite, would it not?  It would be hard to justify staying in business, I would think.

You are correct that they do exist.
Problem for you is, the authors of such algorithms begin with the presupposition that the Earth and celestial bodies are round,
take into account the diameter of the Sun & moon which is false according to the flat Earth theory of a 35 mile wide Sun,
and produce results which are correct to the minute assuming the observer is looking at an apparent flat horizon (no mountains in the way of the Sunset view).

The writers of the programs do not go out and survey the Earth.  They are told what the final product will be by their employers and use data supplied to them by the government.  They could be  writing a program that determines the sunrise over a grilled cheese sandwich for all they know.  Don't make these geeks out to be some sort of all knowing entity.  They are no smarter than you or I.  In fact, we probably see more of the sun in a week than any of them do in a month.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Art on July 14, 2012, 07:19:32 PM
My first question was related specifically to geostationary sats,
and the question (the sentence with a question mark over it) :
"Does that not sound like a greater feat then sending a shuttle to the moon?"
has not been addressed, and by that, I mean suspending any object capable of
receiving and retransmitting radio signals in space for a number of years.

Programmers don't have to do the math to calculate the movement of celestial bodies
if the math already exists, but they do have to have some understanding of it to
implement it into a working program.
I don't work as a programmer, but have completed this as late as last week as part of
a GPS program for iPhone (GPS is a whole other subject).

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/ArtArt/SunMoon.png)

This is all very fresh in my mind. The formulas work, and can predict accurately for as
long as you or I will live or have lived.
The reason I (as a flat Earth believer) would want to see the formulas reproduced properly
is for the sake of evidence and knowledge.
To explain why the Sun takes longer to set in the polar regions, why the moon phase appears
upside down in one hemisphere as opposed to the other, I could keep going.
If FET is anything other than conjecture, these formulas would be much easier to produce than
existing ones built on false information that happen to work.
I think it fundamental actually, in proving the Sun is the size you think it is, the path of the Sun
and moon follow FET.

Hypothesis, Numbers and demonstrability, repeatability, and results. That's what Science is.



Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Art on July 14, 2012, 08:33:12 PM
I think I could prove FET false if this map is generally accepted as a true representation of the Earth:
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r36/Persistenxe/Flat_earth-1.png)

It would take too much time for something that is frivolous in my opinion,
and also, I think it would also make me a government conspirator, and my information invalidated here.

An algorithm could be written to translate coordinates obtained from the GPS system,
or some automatically generated stream of coordinates that simulate movement
to their positions on a FET map of the Earth.
If movement at various angles across the apparent disc of the Earth were simulated at constant speed,
Movement tracking on the FET map would accelerate or deccelerate in predictable  areas if RET is correct.




Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: squevil on July 15, 2012, 07:59:01 AM
that map is just a representation of the earth. there isnt an accurate flat earth map because all the best map makers believe in a round earth model. the map in question is a round earth map made into a disc.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: EmperorZhark on July 15, 2012, 09:01:54 AM
Why can't you come up with something which at least gives the distances even remotly correct?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 09:06:52 AM
I am sorry, EZ.  Are you a Cartographer?   
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 09:23:52 AM
does the fact that all cartographers believe that the Earth is round kind of speak for itself?

I mean here we have people that map out the world and create charts. And they find the Earth to be round... is that not kind of hinting at something...
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 09:28:31 AM
I see, BoatswainsMate.  You have a survey to show us, or something.  Please proceed. 
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 09:32:26 AM
You made me laugh, I don't need a survey.

I think you are asking for documentation showing that all cartographers believe the Earth is round? Well... if one of them believed the Earth is flat would he not create a map of this flat earth?

where is this map of the flat earth? If I have never heard of such a map and never seen such a map made... I can come to the conclusion that the map does not exist and cartographers continue on believing the Earth is round.

Ta da!
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: EmperorZhark on July 15, 2012, 09:39:03 AM
I don't need to be a cartographer to use a map and to see that if I had to use the FE map, I would get lost easily.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 09:40:24 AM
Every cartographer that I have known, all two of them, have made flat maps.  I wonder why?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: EmperorZhark on July 15, 2012, 09:41:17 AM
Every cartographer that I have known, all two of them, have made flat maps.  I wonder why?

Flat map of a whole Earth?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 09:42:43 AM
Every cartographer that I have known, all two of them, have made flat maps.  I wonder why?

Flat map of a whole Earth?

I don't know, I suppose so.  I did not interrogate them.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: EmperorZhark on July 15, 2012, 09:44:33 AM
Every cartographer that I have known, all two of them, have made flat maps.  I wonder why?

Flat map of a whole Earth?

I don't know, I suppose so.  I did not interrogate them.

Anyway a flat map doesn't mean a flat Earth.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
Every cartographer that I have known, all two of them, have made flat maps.  I wonder why?

Flat map of a whole Earth?

I don't know, I suppose so.  I did not interrogate them.

Anyway a flat map doesn't mean a flat Earth.

It does not mean anything other than the map, which is flat.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 09:50:02 AM
well damn, they made a flat map. I use flat charts? does that mean I am on a flat Earth because my charts are flat?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 09:52:32 AM
Yes.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: EmperorZhark on July 15, 2012, 09:53:20 AM
Why is the FE map then completely wrong?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 09:54:20 AM
I am not a cartographer, are you?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 09:56:48 AM
holy hell! your telling me this whole time my flat Charts are actually being used to move in accordance with that crazy flat Earth map with an ice wall around it! Man My ship must be magical because I traveled straight through a few things that should have been there. An ice-wall included.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 09:58:52 AM
Are you drunk, Boaty?  It's ok since it is the weekend.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 10:00:50 AM
It's 5 o'clock somewhere right?

Wait I should stop im gonna get banned for posting low content hahaha
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 10:02:47 AM
Cheeers.  I am too.

Now, about this flat Earth theory that you have.  Tell me more.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 10:03:37 AM
Wich one? You should see my thread. circles man! they are different!
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 10:05:51 AM
The one where you definitively debunk those naysayers.  That was good. 
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 10:07:47 AM
Ask me how I come up with this stuff?

Wait ill tel you!

Flippen magical amazingness dust!


Like on this thread, Loran station are shut down and no signals coming from them or too them. So how does the gps get a signal! are they using cell phone towers?!

The amazingess dust has been crushed up and put into my rum/pineapple ill be busting this stuff out all day.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: EmperorZhark on July 15, 2012, 10:09:31 AM
I am not a cartographer, are you?

I don't need a cartographer to see that the FE map is wrong.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 10:10:47 AM
Not only is Boatsy on the dust, but he can prove the Earth is flat, too.  He is a hero amongst men, and women for that matter.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 10:12:06 AM
I am not a cartographer, are you?

I don't need a cartographer to see that the FE map is wrong.

Now you are starting to make sense.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 10:13:24 AM
My charts are flat, when I am sailing I track the status of the ship and its heading on a flat chart/ flat electronic chart. When I look out the porthole I see a vast expanse of ocean that looks flat. That flat ocean correlates perfectly with what my flat charts are telling me.

The flatness is everywhere.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 10:16:07 AM
Why can't people understand this?  It makes perfect sense.  And, it is coming from a pirate, to boot.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 10:17:23 AM
don't say "to boot" moms going to come out of left field and call you a Canadian! Did you see what she did to me when I said "to boot" im not Floridian anymore!
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 10:18:40 AM
It's ok.  I did a Canadian once.  I am allowed to say it.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: EmperorZhark on July 15, 2012, 10:24:02 AM
My charts are flat, when I am sailing I track the status of the ship and its heading on a flat chart/ flat electronic chart. When I look out the porthole I see a vast expanse of ocean that looks flat. That flat ocean correlates perfectly with what my flat charts are telling me.

The flatness is everywhere.

Are we back to the mother of all stupid arguments: it looks flat therefore it is?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 10:25:07 AM
Yes, we could insult your mother, too.  But we won't because we are grown ups. 
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 10:26:41 AM
I sense anger. The flatness feeds this anger. Give in to the anger, let the flatness consume you. All will be explained in due time.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 10:28:18 AM
This is going to get moved to CN soon if we do not turn it around.

So, Boatsy, give us your theory on life: in detail.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 10:30:07 AM
Wait I shall save us all (Pongo is online)

Now about this GPS situation. I want to know something. The OP clearly stats GPS uses satellites. Now that is impossible, GPS uses an array of ground based antennas. the Loran stations are all shut down. What towers are used?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 10:45:12 AM
Bam, in your face OP.  And this is coming from a pirate.  He should know a little something about the Earth.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 11:07:16 AM
I know many things about the Earth! You travel in a circle without actually turning on the flat Earth, how magical is that!... pretty magical! This flat Earth is fascinating!
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 11:13:00 AM
Proof at hand.  What now?  OP?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Art on July 15, 2012, 02:05:08 PM
There are two very large expanses of ocean there to cover with radio towers floating on water, and high enough to provide a 3D position fix.

Does the Sun travel in a circle around the disc halfway
Through it's radius?
How are seasons accounted for? And why does Sunrise/set time
change daily?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 02:08:10 PM
Do I really need to point you to the wiki again?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 02:29:48 PM
Correct me if I am wrong Jroa, but the sun according to FE is not traveling in a exact set circle all the time. So sunrise/sunset times differ due to the path the sun takes is not always the same every day.

Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Son of Orospu on July 15, 2012, 02:31:51 PM
Correct me if I am wrong Jroa, but the sun according to FE is not traveling in a exact set circle all the time. So sunrise/sunset times differ due to the path the sun takes is not always the same every day.

Yes, the sun rises and sets at different times on different days.  Where is this going?
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: BoatswainsMate on July 15, 2012, 04:00:11 PM
Ha! it's going no where!

Except answering Art's question because you and I both know he did not go read the wiki!!
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Art on July 17, 2012, 08:13:29 AM
Every cartographer that I have known, all two of them, have made flat maps.  I wonder why?

Because our screens and paper are flat,
And we have to read from them unless we carry a sphere around.

I read the FAQ.
It illustrates the Sun's movement in a perfect circle
Of which the radius varies according to season.
The Sun rises and sets at different times every day.
This isn't explained in the FAQ.
If I produced a model of the Sun rotating around a flat Earth
Using data provided by this forum,
There would be inconsistency in the areas of
The Earth lit at any given time.

You don't need to survey the Earth to produce a map.
Our spherical coordinate system works.
Doesn't matter if it's premise is false.

So in what pattern does the Sun move around the
disc of the Earth to give the effect of differing
Rise and set times daily? And the moon
for that matter..
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: ThinkingMan on July 17, 2012, 08:15:41 AM
And for that matter, how does it set if it's always overhead? This question has never been answered, although I believe I've asked it in several threads.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: Art on July 17, 2012, 06:41:29 PM
And for that matter, how does it set if it's always overhead? This question has never been answered, although I believe I've asked it in several threads.
That is answered in the FAQ, it apparently becomes smaller as it becomes distant.
Why it appears to set on a vertical plane, I'm sure there's some explanation for that.

It would be interesting as a programmer to bring a model of this flat Earth to life,
but the input data cannot be provided, so the outcome will always be false for
that reason, rather than FET being just plain incorrect.

It smells a bit like a religious debate where the Deist side can't prove anything,
but they can reject any and all evidence used against them. It goes nowhere.
At least they can present a model of the way they think things are (properly).

I feel I've spent too much time on this forum for that reason.
Title: Re: Flat Earth Theory Qs
Post by: ThinkingMan on July 18, 2012, 06:01:50 AM
That's what I'm asking, why does it set? As in, appear to go below a horizontal plane? Especially since I've been told that you can't see it at night for various reasons, usually something like, the atmo-layer is too thick, or all the light is focused on one spot (but somehow doesn't get to me. The sun never appeared to get smaller to me. Just to disappear behind the horizon.