The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Q&A => Topic started by: Conker on October 11, 2011, 01:04:19 PM

Title: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 11, 2011, 01:04:19 PM
http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/

Maybe you are so lazy to find the satellital database, so hereīs the link. Be aware for Ham slang.http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/satellites/status.php


PS: I donīt think you are going to change your mind. i just enjoy enrevesated explanations
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Thork on October 11, 2011, 01:22:23 PM
ARISS? ARISS? An International Organisation calling its Project ARISS (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=arris)? This has to be a joke site.

Also do you know the people that set this site up? How can you be sure they are any more distant from the conspiracy than NASA. How do you know this little hoax isn't made by NASA calling itself and representing itself as something else?

Here (http://www.nessie.co.uk/htm/searching_for_nessie/search3.html) is another amateur site. Anyone can make a website with data. The data doesn't have to be based on reality.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 11, 2011, 01:28:35 PM
But they are telling you what satellites they have up there, and they are giving you their frecuencies. Also, they are made by universities, so is just about searching on the proyect database( If exists) of the university. I will chech their operabillity by myself, if I werenīt living under a 3G antenna, which leaves KO every HF transsmission
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Thork on October 11, 2011, 01:32:43 PM
Those frequencies could be easily sent out by psuedolites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudolite). This is not scientific evidence. Just the icy fingers of the conspiracy reaching into your pants to give your conkers a tug.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: markjo on October 11, 2011, 02:41:37 PM
Can pseudolites provide a moving signal source with the same angular velocity as satellites?
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Thork on October 11, 2011, 02:49:57 PM
Can pseudolites provide a moving signal source with the same angular velocity as satellites?
Yes.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 11, 2011, 02:55:08 PM
Can pseudolites send an SSTV rasio signal of outer space made with internal cameras.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Thork on October 11, 2011, 02:57:48 PM
Can pseudolites send an SSTV rasio signal of outer space made with internal cameras.
They can simulate it yes. They are psuedo-satellites which are ground based stations that perform the functions of satellites. They can triangulate a position to give you a GPS co-ordinate or provide you with 'satellite' TV for example.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 11, 2011, 03:13:39 PM
Eeeehm, sure Thork, thatīs why you need to point the antenna upwards to receive the signal, exactly as with the ISS. Anyway, did you heard about that spacelab competition on youtube? Itīs your f**king moment, guys
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Thork on October 11, 2011, 03:25:39 PM
Eeeehm, sure Thork, thatīs why you need to point the antenna upwards to receive the signal, exactly as with the ISS.
And with that you dismiss any chance the 'satellite' is above you.
Think about a car aerial. It points up. Not because the radio station mast is in the air. If the aerial points up, the direction of the wave will be perpendicular.
(http://montalk.net/emavec/EMtransverse.jpg)

You should look up the right-hand rule for propagation.
(http://www.learn-about-electronics.com/images/Right-hand-rule-for-propagation.gif)

If the aerial points up for best reception, the last place the source must be is up or down.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: markjo on October 11, 2011, 03:34:52 PM
Can pseudolites provide a moving signal source with the same angular velocity as satellites?
Yes.
Would you care to explain how this can be accomplished?
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 11, 2011, 03:36:57 PM
OMFG are you trying to argue whith me with radio? SURE? OK. Of course that the right hand rule must to be taken in consideration for the antenna, but iīm not talking about the fisical antenna wire direction, more about the most effective receiving direction. You donīt use Omnidirectional antennas to receive a extremelly quiet signal in the space, you use a Directional antenna. Those need to be faced with the emiter. Car antennas are omnidirectional devices, just because FM commercial emmiters are strong enough, and itīs not very comfortable to turn your antenna on every courve. A very common directional antenna will be a satellital receiver (LoL, redundance), for example, the one of your TV. It must be pointed to where the satellite is.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Thork on October 11, 2011, 03:54:38 PM
OMFG are you trying to argue whith me with radio? 
Why not? Because your trolling to date has singled you out as an authority on the matter? If you are such an expert on radio, why are you asking me fundamental questions about how it works?

fisical antenna
What is a fisical antenna?

I have a satellite dish on my house. It points South East, not up. Proof in itself the 'satellite' must be in Slough and not in space.

Pseuolites is the answer to your queries. 
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: markjo on October 11, 2011, 04:06:16 PM
I have a satellite dish on my house. It points South East, not up. Proof in itself the 'satellite' must be in Slough and not in space.

Your satellite dish points parallel to the surface of the earth?  ???
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Thork on October 11, 2011, 04:13:06 PM
I have a satellite dish on my house. It points South East, not up. Proof in itself the 'satellite' must be in Slough and not in space.

Your satellite dish points parallel to the surface of the earth?  ???
Yep. It is mounted like this one
(http://www.awaerials-birmingham.co.uk/var/al/23424/260365-RS14011_Satellite-Dish-on-House-03.png)

or this one
(http://www.wecanfit.co.uk/images/23.jpg)

or any of the ones in this street.
(http://www.constructionphotography.com/ImageThumbs/A088-02463/3/A088-02463_Terraced_houses_with_satellite_dishes_England_UK.jpg)

You'll be telling me they are all pointing up at satellites in the sky, and not parallel at ground based stations next. ::)
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: alex00 on October 11, 2011, 04:48:47 PM
those satellites are all pointing at the sky..

they have to otherwise you will get no signal..
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Tom Bishop on October 11, 2011, 05:27:40 PM
Home satellite dishes don't exactly need to be lined up with a specific pin-point to operate, just in a general direction. The actual signal could be coming from a variety of sources in that direction.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Sentient Pizza on October 11, 2011, 05:28:44 PM
my dish points sout east too Thork. its not paralell to the ground, though it is a shallow angle up, maybe 20 degrees.

Edit - which is just above where the sun would be over the south eastern horizon at midnight in the middle of winter if the earth were flat. Why would my dish need to point that high into the sky? there are no significant mountain rainges in that direction form my house all the way to the ice wall. no reason to think the signal is coming form a pseudolite-

Also I am interested to see you provide evidence for
Can pseudolites provide a moving signal source with the same angular velocity as satellites?
Yes.
Would you care to explain how this can be accomplished?

I'm dying to hear this one.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Sentient Pizza on October 11, 2011, 05:34:24 PM
Home satellite dishes don't exactly need to be lined up with a specific pin-point to operate, just in a general direction. The actual signal could be coming from a variety of sources in that direction.

What a load tom. my dish got moved a half an inch and my signal completley stopped working. While the tech was re-aligning the dish he showed me the signal strength and what a difference it makes to be correctly aimed to a pin point.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: alex00 on October 11, 2011, 05:38:36 PM
Home satellite dishes don't exactly need to be lined up with a specific pin-point to operate, just in a general direction. The actual signal could be coming from a variety of sources in that direction.

not really...go outside and point your satellite(if you have one) about 4 feet to the right or left..guarantee you that you will loose your signal
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: markjo on October 11, 2011, 06:19:07 PM
You'll be telling me they are all pointing up at satellites in the sky, and not parallel at ground based stations next. ::)

What do ground based stations have to do with satellite TV?  ???
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Moon squirter on October 11, 2011, 11:07:11 PM
Home satellite dishes don't exactly need to be lined up with a specific pin-point to operate, just in a general direction. The actual signal could be coming from a variety of sources in that direction.
The complete inverse of the statement is true. Dish alignment is crucial. Tom's making it up.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Thork on October 12, 2011, 01:51:12 AM
those satellites are all pointing at the sky..

they have to otherwise you will get no signal..
Use your eyes. What do they tell you? They are hardly pointing at the sky. They are picking up ground based transmitters. >:(

my dish points sout east too Thork. its not paralell to the ground, though it is a shallow angle up, maybe 20 degrees.
This is rare and unlikely. However assuming you are not just saying this to try and get a reaction I will tell you how it works anyway. If you live in a built up area or an area where terrain would be a problem, the 'satellite' company will use the ionoplane to hook you and that local area up with a skywave.
(http://www.moonraker.com.au/techni/ground-skywave.jpg)
This way you get a signal when a ground wave would otherwise leave poor reception.

Edit - which is just above where the sun would be over the south eastern horizon at midnight in the middle of winter if the earth were flat. Why would my dish need to point that high into the sky? there are no significant mountain rainges in that direction form my house all the way to the ice wall. no reason to think the signal is coming form a pseudolite-
You do not understand where the sun is. You think the earth is round for heavens sake. Don't try and make astrological predictions when you are so woefully ill-educated on the matter.

You'll be telling me they are all pointing up at satellites in the sky, and not parallel at ground based stations next. ::)

What do ground based stations have to do with satellite TV?  ???
Because satellite TV is a misnomer. The signal comes from ground based stations. It should be called Psuedolite TV. Rupert Murdock's company Sky TV should really be called Ground TV, but he's in on it. >:(
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 12, 2011, 05:55:22 AM
Ok Thork, after a 5 minutes search I found what I wanted: Satellital Frecuencies. You seem to think that every frecuency reflects into the ionosphere. Nope. Here is a graph that will help you. It shows the height were different frecuencies are reflected.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/69/Ionogramme.png)

Here is a little help:

D layer (not shown): 60 km high, appears in daylight and absorves frecuencies below 10 MHz, protecting the Earth froms some lethal Cosmic waves.

E layer: 80-110 km high

F layers:180-600 km high. They lift on night time so they change their properties
   F1:180-300 km. Often fluctuates so much that mixes with F2
   F2:300-600 km. Highest layer.

Now look to the x axis on the graph. Itīs called "MHz" because other frecuencies are not reflected.

Here are the downlink frecuencies for the 3 more used satellital bands:

C Band   3.7 – 4.2 GHz

Ku Band   11.7 – 12.7 GHz

Ka Band   18.3 – 20.2 GHz



Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Sentient Pizza on October 12, 2011, 07:09:22 AM
my dish points sout east too Thork. its not paralell to the ground, though it is a shallow angle up, maybe 20 degrees.
This is rare and unlikely. However assuming you are not just saying this to try and get a reaction I will tell you how it works anyway. If you live in a built up area or an area where terrain would be a problem, the 'satellite' company will use the ionoplane to hook you and that local area up with a skywave.
(http://www.moonraker.com.au/techni/ground-skywave.jpg)
This way you get a signal when a ground wave would otherwise leave poor reception.

I dont think you want to travel down this road Thork.
1 - Thte kind of atmoshperic bounce and propogation you are speaking about is not consistent, based on very specific conditions, and only works with certain types of signals. Nammely AM and HAM radio. That is not to say that it is impossible to do what you say, but it is highly un reliable and not worht the effert.

2 - I live in a rural area of Eastern Washington state. its basicly flat here, and there are no built up areas. so how do they do it for me?

3 - since when is a 'skywave' a real thing, or a real peice of communications tech? (Other than the name of a company and a band)



Edit - which is just above where the sun would be over the south eastern horizon at midnight in the middle of winter if the earth were flat. Why would my dish need to point that high into the sky? there are no significant mountain rainges in that direction form my house all the way to the ice wall. no reason to think the signal is coming form a pseudolite-
You do not understand where the sun is. You think the earth is round for heavens sake. Don't try and make astrological predictions when you are so woefully ill-educated on the matter.
This is a laughable rebuttal even for you Thork. Did you forget that we are communicating inside the hub of Flat earth knolwdge and information? Did you forget that every peice of FE doctrine I could ever need is right here at my fingertips? I'll referr you to my very first post a couple years ago for a simple set of calculations that explains this.

1- The closest an observer at sea level can get to the sun is 3000 miles. (Summer, at noon, at the equator, on the equinox, with the sun directly overhead at 90deg to the plane of the earth you are standing on)

2- The furthest away you can get from the sun on the same day at the same conditions is to be at the "Ice wall" on the other side of the disc at night (and please do not post about guards or penguins) and that is about 18914 miles (the tangent of a right triangle where the leg from the sun to the ground is 3000 miles and the leg on the ground is 18675 miles or roughly 3/4 the diameter of the FE).

Ok if you are still with me after these simple assumptions please consider the following: At condition 1 the sun is directly overhead and no one supporting the FE theory should disagree that you will be able to see the sun. At condition 2 the sun is still 13.5deg off the horizon. Due to its dia of 32 miles it occupies just under 1/8 of a degree (.09) in the sky. That means that there is still plenty more than 13 degrees of clear sky below the sun and the horizon.

Its not hard to understand at all. its simple trig based on the 'facts' claimed by FE proponents. The sun will never be less than 10 degrees off the horizon on a FE even in the worst possible condiotions.

So my point stands: my dish points upwards enough to be over the suns position at night on the FE. Why would it need to point that high? 

Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Ski on October 12, 2011, 09:34:43 AM
Home satellite dishes don't exactly need to be lined up with a specific pin-point to operate, just in a general direction. The actual signal could be coming from a variety of sources in that direction.

not really...go outside and point your satellite(if you have one) about 4 feet to the right or left..guarantee you that you will loose your signal
Four feet to the right or left would not be in the same general direction.  ::)
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Ski on October 12, 2011, 09:40:52 AM
I dont think you want to travel down this road Thork.
1 - Thte kind of atmoshperic bounce and propogation you are speaking about is not consistent, based on very specific conditions, and only works with certain types of signals. Nammely AM and HAM radio. That is not to say that it is impossible to do what you say, but it is highly un reliable and not worht the effert.
Are you familiar with HAARP by chance?


Quote
3 - since when is a 'skywave' a real thing, or a real peice of communications tech? (Other than the name of a company and a band)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave


Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 12, 2011, 10:32:26 AM
Good job ignoring me, Thork / Ski
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Sentient Pizza on October 12, 2011, 11:06:24 AM
I dont think you want to travel down this road Thork.
1 - Thte kind of atmoshperic bounce and propogation you are speaking about is not consistent, based on very specific conditions, and only works with certain types of signals. Nammely AM and HAM radio. That is not to say that it is impossible to do what you say, but it is highly un reliable and not worht the effert.
Are you familiar with HAARP by chance?
not until now. Thank you for pointing me towards some interesting reading.

I still fail to see how the HAARP research facility is evidence that TV signals that we think are from satelites are using the ionosphere to get to our dishes after being broadcast from pseudolites. This is a facility dedicated to figuring this stuff out wich implies that we still need to figure out how to pull it off. Unless you think the facility is just a front to maintain the great conspiracy.


3 - since when is a 'skywave' a real thing, or a real peice of communications tech? (Other than the name of a company and a band)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skywave

Yeah I saw that wiki page too and I'm not sure what you are getting at by linking it. just because its possible to bounce certain wavelengths arround with some measure of certainty does not at all mean it lends credibility to Thorks arguements in this thread.

Besides all that:
1 - There is no need te defeat line of site issues on a round earth that do not exist on a flat earth.
2 - Using this ionosphere type EM proigation theory that is based on RE physics as evidence for a FE is not a good place to be. try to get some of your own tech.
3 - Conkers' posts destroys your agruements about weather or not it is even possible to transmit tv in this manner.

Good job ignoring me, Thork / Ski
Sorry Conker. I may hve distracted them for a bit.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Ski on October 12, 2011, 12:50:05 PM
Good job ignoring me, Thork / Ski

Not every signal need be broadcast from a ground transmitter. The issue of psuedollites and stratellites have been discussed so many times, it is much more likely that we are sick of repeating the conversation with someone unwilling to search for them.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Sentient Pizza on October 12, 2011, 02:13:41 PM
Good job ignoring me, Thork / Ski

Not every signal need be broadcast from a ground transmitter. The issue of psuedollites and stratellites have been discussed so many times, it is much more likely that we are sick of repeating the conversation with someone unwilling to search for them.

Classic. Just classic. This os one of my favorite FE responces. I'll paraphrase for anyone interested:

"We FE proponents have had this conversation so many times that it is up to you to poke a new kind of hole in our raft, or to poke a hole in it in a way that entertains us so that we may be provoked into this pointless debate that we have categoricly been voctorious so many times before. Furthermore my ongoing participation as a forrum edler and my experience with watching these countles debates happen gives me the right to say things like "its been done before" and "no your wrong because its happened before" and "FET has been shown to have every bit of hard evidence and not a shred for RE for so long that I gfrow tired of these shenanigans" and "Please read ENAG by SBR, it is the doctrine by which we all stand, if you cant see the validity o fthe conclusions you are hoplesly brainwashed by the grand conspiracy" and "I cant be bothered by noobs like you, I am one of the elders" and "the burden is on you the ones who 'claim' the shape of the earth is not flat".

/thread
/FET
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 13, 2011, 07:26:33 AM
Actually, I donīt know why a stupid pseudo-weapon from the Cold War, now used with more common uses, has something in common with ground stations sending S-TV. Also, we were talking about Amateur satellites, so I will put here the frecuencies of the ARISSat-1, an amateur satellite:

Mode V Digitalker (Voices Messages and Telemetry): Operational
Downlink   145.9500 MHz FM
 
Mode V Imaging (Robot 36 SSTV from onboard cameras): Operational
Downlink   145.9500 MHz FM
 
Mode V Telemetry (1000 baud (400 baud backup)): Operational
Downlink   145.9200 MHz BPSK
 
Mode V TLM Beacon (CW-2, active with BPSK-1000): Operational
Downlink   145.9190 MHz CW
 
Mode V TLM Beacon (CW-1, active with BPSK-400): Unknown
Downlink   145.9390 MHz CW
 
Mode U/V (B) Linear Transponder (Inverting): Operational
Uplink:   435.7580 - 435.7420 MHz SSB/CW
Downlink   145.9220 - 145.9380 MHz SSB/CW


Before you say " I win! thatīs MHz!, Iīll tell you that they are 100 times higher frecuencies that the shown in the graph. Now check Mode V Imaging. Thatīs a SSTV in Robot 36 coding, so everybody can download that, even me though HAM radio networks, if I can configure it OK.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 14, 2011, 06:23:54 AM
I tried to get that channel though HAM networs, but apparently nobody on the north hemisfere  was listening to it. Damn HAMīs !
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 14, 2011, 09:58:41 AM
Nope, I will not let this down until you give me a valid argument.
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Copernicious on October 22, 2011, 08:47:08 PM
A few posts up, there is an image of parabolic dish antennas aimed at satellites (per RE theory) / ground pseudolites (per FE theory).

An important fact is that all dishes visible on the picture are of the offset-type - they point higher than their apparent angle.

See the following image:
(http://www.techtir.ie/sites/default/files/1000017_3-off_dish.jpg)

Actual, prime-focus dishes used for receiving "satellite" TV are usually aimed like this:
(http://www.qsl.net/oh2aue/180cmra2.jpg)

In some countries, ground-based microwave transmission is also used (such as Hungary's Antenna Digital system).
An offset-type antenna used for receiving Antenna Digital can be seen on this picture of a house:
(http://1.static.slando.com/photos/live/93/haromgeneracios-ketlakasos-csaladi-haz-elado_37414793_1_F.jpg)

Notice how the antenna appears to be pointing downwards. The actual beam received by the antenna is horizontal.

This is how a prime-focus dish receiving Antenna Digital looks like:
(http://s56.radikal.ru/i154/0908/8c/0ff46b2df5a2.jpg)
Title: Re: Amateur satellites
Post by: Conker on October 23, 2011, 05:21:20 AM
Thatīs the point.