# The Flat Earth Society

## Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: momentia on September 09, 2011, 10:38:27 AM

Title: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: momentia on September 09, 2011, 10:38:27 AM
Any FE map will have different distances than the RE map at points due to the lack of a distance preserving map (function) from a Geoid (kind of like a sphere) to a plane.

For example, take the FAQ map. Distances in the southern hemisphere are distorted severely, as shown many times before. So I will ignore it.

Or, take Rowbotham's map with a smaller radius (8402 miles)
on Rowbotham's map, distances at northern latitudes are too small.
Lets say New York to Southampton, using Rowbotham's distance of 3476 miles.

"New York to Southampton 2980[nautical miles] = 3476[statute miles]"
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za22.htm

Now according to this map and known latitude and longitude, the distance should be:
>Thork distance: 2472 mi
or about a thousand miles short.

Also, for reference, i get:
>RE distance: 3422 mi

Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: PizzaPlanet on September 14, 2011, 08:44:39 PM
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=44906.0
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: momentia on September 14, 2011, 09:33:55 PM
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=44906.0
First of all, Google maps is a mercator projection. As I said, any flat map of the round earth will inevitably contain distortion errors. Get a globe or use Google Earth (a virtual globe) to get a better representation of the round earth.

Second, a meter here is a meter near the south pole (or ice wall if you want to use the FE model.) A meter stick looks the same at the lower latitudes as it does at the higher latitudes. It does not matter the angle that the sun's light comes in at. Imagine a glass building near the ice wall. It would look the same during the day, or during the night with artificial light.

Unless you are saying that the measurable (and thus actual) circumference of the earth decreases as its radius increases past the equator. (As it would have to have the same distances as on RE.) This would require space to bend a lot, in a non-natural way, but I would be interested if this is what you think.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: EmperorZhark on September 15, 2011, 11:41:59 AM
Simply take any site of flights booking and any site giving you distances and check some journeys, especially in the southern hemisphere.

You're bound to see that the map of FE provided simply doesn't match with the reality.

And for the umpteenth time: is there a distance-accurate map of the FE ?
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Megaman on August 11, 2012, 10:28:33 PM
Simply take any site of flights booking and any site giving you distances and check some journeys, especially in the southern hemisphere.

You're bound to see that the map of FE provided simply doesn't match with the reality.

And for the umpteenth time: is there a distance-accurate map of the FE ?

No. FE supporters are entirely without proof. They have ideas about how things work but few ever try to test them and even then, none do so in a skeptical manner. They are so sure of their position that it skews their experiments and they are not concerned with verifying their beliefs with calculation.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: BoatswainsMate on August 11, 2012, 10:42:49 PM
I have said this many times and I will say it again. You cannot navigate using flat earth theory. It just wont work. The directions and distances to places are not in line with charts used today. Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection. If the Earth was indeed flat I would need a completely different set of charts that are non mercator projection. making a chart of a flat Earth would be much easier then making a chart of a spherical Earth.

I navigate with great accuracy using charts based on RET so what does that show me? well that shows me the Earth is round, otherwise how would I be getting to my waypoints on time using round Earth navigational methods if the Earth was flat?
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 12, 2012, 07:35:16 AM
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: garygreen on August 12, 2012, 07:46:56 AM
I have said this many times and I will say it again. You cannot navigate using flat earth theory. It just wont work. The directions and distances to places are not in line with charts used today. Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection. If the Earth was indeed flat I would need a completely different set of charts that are non mercator projection. making a chart of a flat Earth would be much easier then making a chart of a spherical Earth.

I navigate with great accuracy using charts based on RET so what does that show me? well that shows me the Earth is round, otherwise how would I be getting to my waypoints on time using round Earth navigational methods if the Earth was flat?

I'm curious about the tools you use to navigate.  Do you only use real, physical maps, or is there also a digital map to consult?
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Megaman on August 12, 2012, 10:55:24 AM
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

Wow. Tell me you're not serious Tom.

Op is concerned with FE's inability to produce a map that accurately represents real world measurements.

It's as if you don't
even understand what's being discussed.

No wonder you believe the writings of Rowbotham.

Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: markjo on August 12, 2012, 02:22:48 PM
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

When that flat map is based on round earth geometry and geography, then yes.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: BoatswainsMate on August 12, 2012, 08:38:40 PM
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

This shows how little you know about modern navigation. Good job, Tom you have just showed how dumb you are.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: BoatswainsMate on August 12, 2012, 08:44:23 PM
I have said this many times and I will say it again. You cannot navigate using flat earth theory. It just wont work. The directions and distances to places are not in line with charts used today. Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection. If the Earth was indeed flat I would need a completely different set of charts that are non mercator projection. making a chart of a flat Earth would be much easier then making a chart of a spherical Earth.

I navigate with great accuracy using charts based on RET so what does that show me? well that shows me the Earth is round, otherwise how would I be getting to my waypoints on time using round Earth navigational methods if the Earth was flat?

I'm curious about the tools you use to navigate.  Do you only use real, physical maps, or is there also a digital map to consult?

There are three main ways to navigate in the modern world. They go by primary,secondary,tertiary. Basically electronic navigation is always your primary and most programs have some very nice features that make navigation very easy. Paper chart navigation is always your secondary and should always be used to double check your electronic chart. IF shit hits the fan and your electronics go out then you have to switch to celestial navigation, basically old school where you have no GPS you are using sun lines to get a fix and hoping that it is not a cloudy night so that you can see every important star or planet.

Tools used are basically the same as the ones used throughout history. Wheems ruler, compass, pencil, sextant, chart, and some form of a bearing indicator.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: dehapitized on August 13, 2012, 07:08:41 PM
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible. Distance is wrong, Circumnavigation would be near impossible unless you feel like turning completely around and following Antarctica all the way to Australia, seeing as the only way to find your way to the other side of the globe via a flat map is to follow Antarctica (or an ice wall. Whatever you want to call it). According to the FAQ, a compass doesn't work and would only confuse the issue.... yeah.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 14, 2012, 09:48:04 AM
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible.

I was just told that people navigate with flat maps every day.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: burt on August 14, 2012, 10:13:02 AM
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible.

I was just told that people navigate with flat maps every day.

you are not wrong, you are just not taking into consideration the system of navigation as a whole.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: markjo on August 14, 2012, 10:40:34 AM
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible.

I was just told that people navigate with flat maps every day.

Flat maps based on round earth geometry?  Yes.  Flat maps based on flat earth geometry? No.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 14, 2012, 02:27:51 PM
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible.

I was just told that people navigate with flat maps every day.

Flat maps based on round earth geometry?  Yes.  Flat maps based on flat earth geometry? No.

It's no longer round earth geometry if it's flat. There will be distortion.

Therefore these navigators are regularly navigateing with distrorted maps. This renders the argument null.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: The Knowledge on August 14, 2012, 03:52:07 PM
I have said this many times and I will say it again. You cannot navigate using flat earth theory. It just wont work. The directions and distances to places are not in line with charts used today. Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection. If the Earth was indeed flat I would need a completely different set of charts that are non mercator projection. making a chart of a flat Earth would be much easier then making a chart of a spherical Earth.

I navigate with great accuracy using charts based on RET so what does that show me? well that shows me the Earth is round, otherwise how would I be getting to my waypoints on time using round Earth navigational methods if the Earth was flat?

I'm curious about the tools you use to navigate.  Do you only use real, physical maps, or is there also a digital map to consult?

There are three main ways to navigate in the modern world. They go by primary,secondary,tertiary. Basically electronic navigation is always your primary and most programs have some very nice features that make navigation very easy. Paper chart navigation is always your secondary and should always be used to double check your electronic chart. IF shit hits the fan and your electronics go out then you have to switch to celestial navigation, basically old school where you have no GPS you are using sun lines to get a fix and hoping that it is not a cloudy night so that you can see every important star or planet.

Tools used are basically the same as the ones used throughout history. Wheems ruler, compass, pencil, sextant, chart, and some form of a bearing indicator.

You should check out my "INS disproves FET" thread. There is no better demonstration of the failure of FE'ers to understand navigational principles. Especially Thork.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: markjo on August 14, 2012, 06:44:18 PM
Therefore these navigators are regularly navigateing with distrorted maps. This renders the argument null.

But the distortion is known, predictable and can be compensated for.  That renders the argument an RE win.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Megaman on August 14, 2012, 08:26:00 PM
Most charts used by navigational teams are mercator projection.

So you admit that it's possible to navigate using a flat map?

If people were to try to navigate with a flat map then navigation would be impossible.

I was just told that people navigate with flat maps every day.

Flat maps based on round earth geometry?  Yes.  Flat maps based on flat earth geometry? No.

It's no longer round earth geometry if it's flat. There will be distortion.

Therefore these navigators are regularly navigateing with distrorted maps. This renders the argument null.

Tom,

Please just stop trying. Everyone knows you like to argue about things that you don't understand (like centripetal acceleration or the validity of Rowbotham).

You're arguments are sooo badly thought out and yet you spout them as if you're an infallable source of information.

Proof:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518 (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518)

Fact : People navigate with distorted maps

Fact: The distortions are based on and exist because the map makers are assuming the Earth is round

Fact : Using these distorted maps, they are able to accurately reach their destination

By these powers combined, RE is supported.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 14, 2012, 09:18:30 PM
Tom,

Please just stop trying. Everyone knows you like to argue about things that you don't understand (like centripetal acceleration or the validity of Rowbotham).

You're arguments are sooo badly thought out and yet you spout them as if you're an infallable source of information.

Proof:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518 (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518)

Fact : People navigate with distorted maps

Fact: The distortions are based on and exist because the map makers are assuming the Earth is round

Fact : Using these distorted maps, they are able to accurately reach their destination

By these powers combined, RE is supported.

I'm glad you agree that people are navigating with distorted maps, contradicting what was said earlier in this thread.

Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: BoatswainsMate on August 14, 2012, 10:14:13 PM
Tom,

Please just stop trying. Everyone knows you like to argue about things that you don't understand (like centripetal acceleration or the validity of Rowbotham).

You're arguments are sooo badly thought out and yet you spout them as if you're an infallable source of information.

Proof:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518 (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518)

Fact : People navigate with distorted maps

Fact: The distortions are based on and exist because the map makers are assuming the Earth is round

Fact : Using these distorted maps, they are able to accurately reach their destination

By these powers combined, RE is supported.

I'm glad you agree that people are navigating with distorted maps, contradicting what was said earlier in this thread.

Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat.

Im sorry, ban me for saying this if you want, but Tom you are fucking retarded. you obviously have no clue as to how charts are made and so on. Fucking retard. And no, I am not mad, just absolutely flabbergasted by Tom's post.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Megaman on August 15, 2012, 01:33:18 AM
Tom,

Please just stop trying. Everyone knows you like to argue about things that you don't understand (like centripetal acceleration or the validity of Rowbotham).

You're arguments are sooo badly thought out and yet you spout them as if you're an infallable source of information.

Proof:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518 (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518)

Fact : People navigate with distorted maps

Fact: The distortions are based on and exist because the map makers are assuming the Earth is round

Fact : Using these distorted maps, they are able to accurately reach their destination

By these powers combined, RE is supported.

I'm glad you agree that people are navigating with distorted maps, contradicting what was said earlier in this thread.

Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat.

Im sorry, ban me for saying this if you want, but Tom you are fucking retarded. you obviously have no clue as to how charts are made and so on. Fucking retard. And no, I am not mad, just absolutely flabbergasted by Tom's post.

^This. I agree with this.

Ban me too.

His post's often don't make logical sense (regarding what is being discussed) and whenever someone points out where he is wrong he just ignores it.

His arguments are worse than ones my 8 year old brother would make.

"Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat."

I honestly don't see how you can be this bad at understanding things....

My only conclusion is that you're doing this on purpose just to troll because you're thought process is illogical and you are constantly unable or unwilling to try and defend yourself.

Face it Tom.

You make terrible arguments.

I've pointed it out several times and you have yet to refute it.

You don't even seem to understand the basics that are the foundations of the gibberish you spout.

I sincerely hope you are a troll.

Now back to the topic,

Can someone from FE please explain why they are unable to produce an FE map that accurately represents measured, real world distances?

Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Battery72 on August 15, 2012, 03:11:18 AM
Tom,

Please just stop trying. Everyone knows you like to argue about things that you don't understand (like centripetal acceleration or the validity of Rowbotham).

You're arguments are sooo badly thought out and yet you spout them as if you're an infallable source of information.

Proof:

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518 (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,18929.msg1380518.html#msg1380518)

Fact : People navigate with distorted maps

Fact: The distortions are based on and exist because the map makers are assuming the Earth is round

Fact : Using these distorted maps, they are able to accurately reach their destination

By these powers combined, RE is supported.

I'm glad you agree that people are navigating with distorted maps, contradicting what was said earlier in this thread.

Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat.

Im sorry, ban me for saying this if you want, but Tom you are fucking retarded. you obviously have no clue as to how charts are made and so on. Fucking retard. And no, I am not mad, just absolutely flabbergasted by Tom's post.

^This. I agree with this.

Ban me too.

His post's often don't make logical sense (regarding what is being discussed) and whenever someone points out where he is wrong he just ignores it.

His arguments are worse than ones my 8 year old brother would make.

"Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat."

I honestly don't see how you can be this bad at understanding things....

My only conclusion is that you're doing this on purpose just to troll because you're thought process is illogical and you are constantly unable or unwilling to try and defend yourself.

Face it Tom.

You make terrible arguments.

I've pointed it out several times and you have yet to refute it.

You don't even seem to understand the basics that are the foundations of the gibberish you spout.

I sincerely hope you are a troll.

Now back to the topic,

Can someone from FE please explain why they are unable to produce an FE map that accurately represents measured, real world distances?

Yes, he does it to me as well. He does it to all RE posters. I admit to getting it a little wrong but nothing like Tom.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2012, 05:37:43 AM
"Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat."

I honestly don't see how you can be this bad at understanding things....

I'm not particularly talking about Mercator maps. Navigators don't use a world Mercator map to travel the nuances of the British coast -- they use a big map of Europe -- maps specifically tailored to show the detailed areas of a region. It's these region specific maps which more closely match how the region would look on a flat earth model.

The types of maps which show a single region are flat with a single scale in the corner which show that one inch=xxx miles or so. They give a strong impression that the scale is applicable to anywehere on the page.

Consider this map for instance:

(http://geology.com/world/europe-map.gif)

There is only one scale in the corner-- which gives the reader the impression that the scale is applicable across the entire map. Any region specific map you'll find has a single scale like this.

If the earth were a globe, there should be scales all over this map to account for the checkerboard of the longitude and latitude lines that grow and shrink on that map depending on where it is. However, there is only one scale on any region-specific map you look at. This suggests that it is a flat earth map.

Any atlas a navigator buys has only one scale in the corner like that. If a navigator traveling across Europe is using that one scale to judge his distances, and regularly reaches his destination with precision as claimed on this forum, then it can only be because the earth is flat.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: The Knowledge on August 15, 2012, 05:40:58 AM
There is no map in that post, just a broken image link.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2012, 05:48:00 AM
Refresh.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: EmperorZhark on August 15, 2012, 07:18:34 AM
Refresh.

Doesn't work.

And i am still amazed how you avoid answering the question of a FE map: none are accurate, none have a proper scale, none preserve the distances, none don't distort the southern hemisphere.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: MrT on August 15, 2012, 07:47:48 AM
http://geology.com/world/europe-satellite-image.shtml (http://geology.com/world/europe-satellite-image.shtml)

Assuming this link works, this is the map Tom tried to post.

My response...Hahahaha.

Hopefully this links helps.  I'm sure others will have a response as well.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: markjo on August 15, 2012, 08:13:48 AM
"Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat."

I honestly don't see how you can be this bad at understanding things....

I'm not particularly talking about Mercator maps. Navigators don't use a world Mercator map to travel the nuances of the British coast -- they use a big map of Europe -- maps specifically tailored to show the detailed areas of a region. It's these region specific maps which more closely match how the region would look on a flat earth model.

The types of maps which show a single region are flat with a single scale in the corner which show that one inch=xxx miles or so. They give a strong impression that the scale is applicable to anywehere on the page.

Consider this map for instance:

http://geology.com/world/europe-map.gif (http://geology.com/world/europe-map.gif)

Tom, that isn't a navigational chart.  This is what a navigational chart looks like:
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 15, 2012, 10:46:46 AM
Markjo, there is only one distance scale on that map too. Please find a map of a large region of the earth with different scales for different parts of the map, as a Round Earth map would need.

If there is only one scale for the map, then it must be a Flat Earth map.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: EmperorZhark on August 15, 2012, 10:49:40 AM
Markjo, there is only one distance scale on that map too. Please find a map of a large region with different scales for different parts of the map, as a Round Earth map would need.

If there is only one scale for the map, then it must be a Flat Earth map.

Provide us then a map of FE (all of it) with a scale.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: BoatswainsMate on August 15, 2012, 11:21:04 AM
God damnit Tom. you are still retarded. You have no understanding of charts or navigation. Go back to your hole and stay away from talking about anything navigational related.

I cannot even take you seriously anymore. Thinking that a chart should have multiple scales is just stupid. You are laughed at by every person that has any common sense and by every person that has any experience in navigation.

you really do not know why charts only have one scale? I mean really... is it that hard.

god you are dumb as shit.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Megaman on August 15, 2012, 02:25:41 PM
"Perhaps the reason they can navigate with flat maps is because the earth is flat."

I honestly don't see how you can be this bad at understanding things....

I'm not particularly talking about Mercator maps. Navigators don't use a world Mercator map to travel the nuances of the British coast -- they use a big map of Europe -- maps specifically tailored to show the detailed areas of a region. It's these region specific maps which more closely match how the region would look on a flat earth model.

The types of maps which show a single region are flat with a single scale in the corner which show that one inch=xxx miles or so. They give a strong impression that the scale is applicable to anywehere on the page.

Consider this map for instance:

(http://geology.com/world/europe-map.gif)

There is only one scale in the corner-- which gives the reader the impression that the scale is applicable across the entire map. Any region specific map you'll find has a single scale like this.

If the earth were a globe, there should be scales all over this map to account for the checkerboard of the longitude and latitude lines that grow and shrink on that map depending on where it is. However, there is only one scale on any region-specific map you look at. This suggests that it is a flat earth map.

Any atlas a navigator buys has only one scale in the corner like that. If a navigator traveling across Europe is using that one scale to judge his distances, and regularly reaches his destination with precision as claimed on this forum, then it can only be because the earth is flat.

Oh... so navigators don't use Mercator projection maps for navigation....

Me: "Hey Encyclopedia, could you verify that fact for me"

Encyclopedia: "Sure thing bro. I got your back. Here:

Mercator projection: globe of the Earth type of map projection introduced in 1569 by Gerardus Mercator. It is often described as a cylindrical projection, but it must be derived mathematically. The meridians are equally spaced, parallel vertical lines, and the parallels of latitude are parallel, horizontal straight lines, spaced farther and farther apart as their distance from the Equator increases. This projection is widely used for navigation charts, because any straight line on a Mercator-projection map is a line of constant true bearing that enables a navigator to plot a straight-line course. It is less practical for world maps because the scale....

[Credit: Encyclopędia Britannica, Inc.]"

Me: "Hold on encyclopedia, what was that about navigation and world maps?"

Encyclopedia: "Well, the projection is widely used for navigation charts, because any straight line on a Mercator-projection map is a line of constant true bearing that enables a navigator to plot a straight-line course. It is less practical for world maps because the scale..."

Me: "I see. So you're saying that the Mercator projection is used primarily for accurate navigation of local areas?"

Encyclopedia: "You got it."

Me: "*Gasp*, but if that's true, that would mean that Tom has absolutely no idea what he is talking about."

Encyclopedia: "Facts are facts."

Me: "Wow, thanks Encyclopedia! I'm suprised more people (like Tom) don't use you to check facts. You're so easy to use and awesome."

Encyclopedia: "No Megaman, you're awesome!"

Me: "Oh you..."

Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: markjo on August 15, 2012, 03:03:22 PM
Markjo, there is only one distance scale on that map too. Please find a map of a large region of the earth with different scales for different parts of the map, as a Round Earth map would need.

If there is only one scale for the map, then it must be a Flat Earth map.

Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Pongo on August 15, 2012, 09:27:14 PM
God damnit Tom. you are still retarded. You have no understanding of charts or navigation. Go back to your hole and stay away from talking about anything navigational related.

I cannot even take you seriously anymore. Thinking that a chart should have multiple scales is just stupid. You are laughed at by every person that has any common sense and by every person that has any experience in navigation.

you really do not know why charts only have one scale? I mean really... is it that hard.

god you are dumb as shit.

Do not use insulting or denigrating personal attacks against other members. Harassment or bullying of other members is forbidden.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Megaman on August 16, 2012, 03:18:21 PM
Tom where are you?

You seem to disappear when people raise points that you can't refute with faulty logic.

Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 16, 2012, 04:15:26 PM
Megaman,

Where did I say that navigators don't use Mercator maps? I said that they don't use 'world Mercator maps' (that's the term I used) to navigate the intracies of the British coast.

Markjo,

Good on you. What you posted in a Round Earth map. It's the first I've seen.  Navigators should be using a map like that with various scales on it to navigate. The fact that they're able to navigate with a single scale is quite telling as to what shape the world really is.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Megaman on August 16, 2012, 05:43:20 PM
Megaman,

Where did I say that navigators don't use Mercator maps? I said that they don't use 'world Mercator maps' (that's the term I used) to navigate the intracies of the British coast.

Markjo,

Good on you. What you posted in a Round Earth map. It's the first I've seen.  Navigators should be using a map like that with various scales on it to navigate. The fact that they're able to navigate with a single scale is quite telling as to what shape the world really is.

I apologize. You used the word Mercator when referring to the world map but neglected to use it when referring to smaller, local maps that navigators actually use.

That, coupled with the fact that the smaller, local map you posted does not use the Mercator projection would imply that you believe navigational maps do not use Mercator.

My mistake for assuming.

Now. Regarding your response to Markjo,

"Navigators should be using a map like that with various scales on it to navigate. The fact that they're able to navigate with a single scale is quite telling as to what shape the world really is."

The Mercator maps used to navigate all have a single scale.

Here's a database of navigation maps:

http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/OnLineViewer.html (http://www.nauticalcharts.noaa.gov/mcd/OnLineViewer.html)

That's what navigation maps look like.

The thing is, the scale of the map is only accurate along latitude lines.

Here's how you read the charts.

Note the section on measuring distance.

Guess what Tom?

Vertical scale on Mercator navigation charts varies along longitudinal lines.

Learn how navigation maps work. You once again argue about something you don't actually understand.

These are the charts used for navigation and navigators must account for the projection (distortion) that occurs when you try to represent a curved surface as being flat.

Your assertion that they are navigating with a single scale on the map is correct but the scale does not apply to North-South direction.

They must adjust for curvature in their calculations. The fact that they must do this is quite telling as to what shape the world really is.

Refute that Tom.

Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: markjo on August 16, 2012, 08:28:39 PM
The fact that they're able to navigate with a single scale is quite telling as to what shape the world really is.

No Tom, it's quite telling as to how small of a region many navigational charts represent.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 16, 2012, 09:05:43 PM
Your assertion that they are navigating with a single scale on the map is correct but the scale does not apply to North-South direction.

You have that backwards. East-West is distorted on a Mercator map. For example, Australia is three times longer than it is. From your link:

Quote
Lines of latitude, while still parallel, are no longer equidistant but wider apart further north. This causes distortion in the shape and size of land and ocean masses as these features are enlarged closer to the poles.

Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Cat Earth Theory on August 16, 2012, 09:30:05 PM
Monster fail, Tom.  If latitude lines are no longer equidistant that's a distortion along north-south lines.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Megaman on August 16, 2012, 09:43:12 PM
Your assertion that they are navigating with a single scale on the map is correct but the scale does not apply to North-South direction.

You have that backwards. East-West is distorted on a Mercator map. For example, Australia is three times longer than it is. From your link:

Quote
Lines of latitude, while still parallel, are no longer equidistant but wider apart further north. This causes distortion in the shape and size of land and ocean masses as these features are enlarged closer to the poles.

Thank you also for implying that the form of my responses somehow renders the facts in those responses invalid. That was a great cop out. You are unable to refute the things I say. You either take them out of context or make up a reason for them not to be worth your time. If you had integrity you would actually attempt to refute the points made instead of dodging them.

Once again, I challenge that you are mentally incapable of refuting the 3 flaws I brought up in Rowbotham's work. I surmise that you are also incapable of refuting the point I brought up about acceleration and rotating bodies. Finally I submit that the reason you nitpicked my example is because the points I raised have proven you wrong on the point of debate and you aren't capable of handling that.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 16, 2012, 10:47:00 PM
Monster fail, Tom.  If latitude lines are no longer equidistant that's a distortion along north-south lines.

The poster said that east-west is correct on a Mercator map, but north-south is not correct. This is false.

Thank you also for implying that the form of my responses somehow renders the facts in those responses invalid. That was a great cop out. You are unable to refute the things I say. You either take them out of context or make up a reason for them not to be worth your time. If you had integrity you would actually attempt to refute the points made instead of dodging them.

Once again, I challenge that you are mentally incapable of refuting the 3 flaws I brought up in Rowbotham's work. I surmise that you are also incapable of refuting the point I brought up about acceleration and rotating bodies. Finally I submit that the reason you nitpicked my example is because the points I raised have proven you wrong on the point of debate and you aren't capable of handling that.

Honestly, the first two of your points came across as unintelligible to me, which is why I only replied to the last one in that thread, and is likely why Ski only replied to the last one as well. I suggest you start another thread and rephrase your thoughts
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Cat Earth Theory on August 16, 2012, 11:42:10 PM
The poster said that east-west is correct on a Mercator map, but north-south is not correct. This is false.

Neither one is "correct" as they're both distorted.  The east-west scale, used to find longitude, doesn't stretch.  The same distance on the map will always show the same difference in longitude.

The north-south scale, on the other hand, does stretch.  The same distance on the map going north-south can show different differences in latitude depending on how north or south you are on the map.

Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: BoatswainsMate on August 17, 2012, 11:27:24 AM
You use the latitude scale for all your measurements because it is accurate. the longitude is somewhat distorted because it had to be to represent a semi spherical Earth on a flat chart, but not so much distorted that it causes inaccuracy's in fix locations and land/ocean representation.

Are we really still on this topic? Tom already has no clue what he is talking about, let's just leave him living in his ignorance.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Moon squirter on August 18, 2012, 08:23:44 AM
Monster fail, Tom.  If latitude lines are no longer equidistant that's a distortion along north-south lines.

The poster said that east-west is correct on a Mercator map, but north-south is not correct. This is false.

Tom, you used the phrase "You have that backwards", which implies that you think that north-south is preserved.  This is why you failed most monsterly.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Megaman on August 19, 2012, 09:29:26 AM
Tom, you keep arguing about cardinal directions while conveniently dodging what's been shown in this thread. Navigators base their navigation on the idea that the earth is round.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: BoatswainsMate on August 20, 2012, 03:09:37 AM
I have said that before Mega. I let them all know that navigating using the tools and calculations on charts for a round Earth I can accurately give travel times, correct headings, and distances. Now if the world was actually flat, then my travel times, distances, and headings would be wrong.

Cannot navigate on a flat Earth using a round Earth chart... I would run into shit.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Son of Orospu on August 20, 2012, 05:23:10 AM
Boatsey, you also believe that you can travel at a constant exact heading with out ever turning.  You lost your credibility there.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Baughn on August 20, 2012, 05:41:48 AM
This is silly.

I mean, don't let me stop you from discussing the options, but you're missing something important. Here, let me have a go:

- Distances work as if the earth is round. This is amply documented, and I have personal experience in the matter.
- But the earth is actually flat.

Okay, so how do we reconcile these two facts?

The answer is simple enough: It's embedded in a highly curved, non-euclidian spacetime. That's not something you could see up close - like the supposed curvature of a round earth, curved spacetime looks flat at small scales - but it has dramatic consequences over larger scales.

For instance, when you think you're going straight, you actually get pulled into a curve, eventually forming a circle. That's why even with the best navigation, going straight ahead in any direction will lead you back to your point of origin. That effect is, as observation shows, stronger when you're closer to the pole.

Conversely, as you go further from the pole, distances get distorted. Although a hypothetical observer in space would agree that you're covering a far larger distance when you're skirting the edge of the ice wall than when you're circling the pole, from your own personal point of view both space and time (the two being inherently linked) get distorted so that they can appear to be the same distance.

Hypothetically, this distortion could get strong enough to shrink the apparent distance to zero outside of the ice wall. Although this is a purely mathematical abstraction, such a singularity - I won't call it a pole, since that means something different in geography and math - could explain why the wall exists in the first place.

A future goal for the Society should be to discover how the distortion works, and apply it technologically. This will at once gain us massive leverage, and as most of the world would not even comprehend the basic principle, there's no risk of someone else accomplishing it first, so we can do this openly.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: markjo on August 20, 2012, 10:51:47 AM
Boatsey, you also believe that you can travel at a constant exact heading with out ever turning.  You lost your credibility there.

Why would he need to turn if he's sailing due north or south?
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: BoatswainsMate on August 20, 2012, 11:30:25 AM
Boatsey, you also believe that you can travel at a constant exact heading with out ever turning.  You lost your credibility there.

Are you trying to tell me that following a heading of 300, my ship's rudder angle has to be at left standard?

Are you trying to tell me that I cannot follow a latitude line? Or a longitude line?

I think you do not fully understand how a ship travels on the ocean.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Son of Orospu on August 20, 2012, 02:36:07 PM
Boatsey, you also believe that you can travel at a constant exact heading with out ever turning.  You lost your credibility there.

Why would he need to turn if he's sailing due north or south?

You know that is the exception.  Well, that and following the equator on a sphere.  Any other heading and you have to constantly turn slightly.

Are you trying to tell me that following a heading of 300, my ship's rudder angle has to be at left standard?

Yes.  It is such a slight curve that you would not notice it compared to the other corrections that are being made.

Are you trying to tell me that I cannot follow a latitude line? Or a longitude line?

See my reply to markjo above.

I think you do not fully understand how a ship travels on the ocean.

I think you have a hard time grasping 3 dimensional space.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: markjo on August 20, 2012, 03:15:37 PM
Boatsey, you also believe that you can travel at a constant exact heading with out ever turning.  You lost your credibility there.

Why would he need to turn if he's sailing due north or south?

You know that is the exception.  Well, that and following the equator on a sphere.  Any other heading and you have to constantly turn slightly.

You would probably have to adjust more for ocean currents and wind than for the earth's curvature.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Son of Orospu on August 20, 2012, 03:18:58 PM
Boatsey, you also believe that you can travel at a constant exact heading with out ever turning.  You lost your credibility there.

Why would he need to turn if he's sailing due north or south?

You know that is the exception.  Well, that and following the equator on a sphere.  Any other heading and you have to constantly turn slightly.

You would probably have to adjust more for ocean currents and wind than for the earth's curvature.

I agree, but that does not make it completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: markjo on August 20, 2012, 03:19:43 PM
Boatsey, you also believe that you can travel at a constant exact heading with out ever turning.  You lost your credibility there.

Why would he need to turn if he's sailing due north or south?

You know that is the exception.  Well, that and following the equator on a sphere.  Any other heading and you have to constantly turn slightly.

You would probably have to adjust more for ocean currents and wind than for the earth's curvature.

I agree, but that does not make it completely irrelevant.

No, just mostly irrelevant.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: BoatswainsMate on August 20, 2012, 03:48:17 PM
Funny how the only corrections to my heading I need to make are for set and drift. Care to explain how I can follow my trackline perfectly no matter what heading it is?

I mean come on dude, I do not need to head north to get south or anything. So Do you honestly believe that if I mean going 085 I am not actually going 085? My gyro says so, after deviation and variation my magnetic says so. So How am I not actually doing 085?

Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Son of Orospu on August 20, 2012, 06:16:01 PM
Boatsey, even markjo, the biggest RE'er here, agrees that you have to turn slightly.  It is such a small amount that he claims it is mostly irrelevant, but still true.  You can not travel on a sphere in any direction other than north/south or along the equator with out turning if you are following a constant heading.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: markjo on August 20, 2012, 07:28:39 PM
Boatsey, even markjo, the biggest RE'er here, agrees that you have to turn slightly.

Whether or not you need to turn depends on what sort of course you're trying to follow.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Son of Orospu on August 20, 2012, 08:00:53 PM
Boatsey, even markjo, the biggest RE'er here, agrees that you have to turn slightly.

Whether or not you need to turn depends on what sort of course you're trying to follow.

I am pretty sure that is what I said in the part that you took out of your quote.
Title: Re: Lack of a distance preserving FE map.
Post by: Baughn on August 21, 2012, 02:25:20 AM
You guys still think that space is three-dimensional? What a laugh.