The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth General => Topic started by: Sorunx on June 30, 2011, 03:35:57 PM

Title: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Sorunx on June 30, 2011, 03:35:57 PM
 Considering your entire description of the heavens is catastrophically opposed to the description presented by cosmologists and astrophysicists, they must be in on the conspiracy right?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Tom Bishop on June 30, 2011, 03:59:19 PM
He's not part of the conspiracy. He's wrong.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on June 30, 2011, 04:06:50 PM
Stephen Hawking used to be a vocal and powerful flat earther. NASA put him in that wheel chair and the chair just spouts out whatever they program these days. He would weep if they would fill his water bottle, once in a while >:(

Quote from: Stephen Hawking - A brief history of time (1988)
A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Crustinator on June 30, 2011, 04:27:40 PM
Stephen Hawking used to be a vocal and powerful flat earther. NASA put him in that wheel chair and the chair just spouts out whatever they program these days. He would weep if they would fill his water bottle, once in a while >:(

Exactly. RE have no evidence that what is coming out of the machine ias actually what he is thinking.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on June 30, 2011, 04:31:35 PM
I think it a form of unusual torture, a warning to the rest of us FErs. He now has to listen to all the heretic nonsense coming from his chair, and NASA has left him so disabled after repeated beatings, that he cannot even indicate its not him talking.
I mean the chair has an American accent for Pete's sake!
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Crustinator on June 30, 2011, 05:02:07 PM
Also why does he have a nurse 24/7? Very suspicious. I'm certain they broke his legs first. He was probably very strong willed in the beginning.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: crackpipe larry on June 30, 2011, 09:29:54 PM
Stephen Hawking used to be a vocal and powerful flat earther. NASA put him in that wheel chair and the chair just spouts out whatever they program these days. He would weep if they would fill his water bottle, once in a while >:(

Exactly. RE have no evidence that what is coming out of the machine ias actually what he is thinking.

Good point.. Anyone could be talking for him..
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Anythingispossible on July 01, 2011, 10:20:01 PM
He's not part of the conspiracy. He's wrong.

What basis do you have for this radical claim? He isn't well renowned for his scientific work for nothing.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2011, 09:09:43 AM
He's not part of the conspiracy. He's wrong.

What basis do you have for this radical claim? He isn't well renowned for his scientific work for nothing.

He's well renowned for his hypothetical mechanisms and theories. He's not well renowned for being right. His ideas like the perpetual expansion of space-time which causes the acceleration of the universe is completely hypothetical and unproven. There is not one shred of evidence that space-time  is expanding.

Astrophysicists use fantasy to explain the cosmos. They construct overly elaborate explanations to explain the observable, the whole of which is unprovable and undemonstratable.  They gain notoriety because their fantasy models seemingly explain the unknown. They fill in the gaps of our knowledge with fantasy. They're story tellers.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Harutsedo on July 02, 2011, 09:31:11 AM
There is not one shred of evidence that space-time  is expanding.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2011, 01:03:28 PM
There is not one shred of evidence that space-time  is expanding.

Incorrect.

What evidence is there that space-time is expanding?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Sorunx on July 02, 2011, 01:40:27 PM
He's not part of the conspiracy. He's wrong.

What basis do you have for this radical claim? He isn't well renowned for his scientific work for nothing.

He's well renowned for his hypothetical mechanisms and theories. He's not well renowned for being right. His ideas like the perpetual expansion of space-time which causes the acceleration of the universe is completely hypothetical and unproven. There is not one shred of evidence that space-time  is expanding.

Astrophysicists use fantasy to explain the cosmos. They construct overly elaborate explanations to explain the observable, the whole of which is unprovable and undemonstratable.  They gain notoriety because their fantasy models seemingly explain the unknown. They fill in the gaps of our knowledge with fantasy. They're story tellers.

 Tom, I have a question, do you recognize what my forum Avatar is a picture of?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2011, 02:07:43 PM
Tom, I have a question, do you recognize what my forum Avatar is a picture of?

Spectrum Analysis. What does that have to do with the topic of space-time expansion?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Sorunx on July 02, 2011, 02:58:29 PM
Tom, I have a question, do you recognize what my forum Avatar is a picture of?

Spectrum Analysis. What does that have to do with the topic of space-time expansion?

  It is not exactly spectrum analysis, it is rather: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_spectroscopy

  It is important because an Astronomy education starts with it, then expands into greater details, that help you understand all the concepts, and how they are not just being misinterpreted, Hawking knows what he is talking about, and has proven it beyond a doubt.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2011, 03:11:20 PM
Tom, I have a question, do you recognize what my forum Avatar is a picture of?

Spectrum Analysis. What does that have to do with the topic of space-time expansion?

  It is not exactly spectrum analysis, it is rather: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_spectroscopy

  It is important because an Astronomy education starts with it, then expands into greater details, that help you understand all the concepts, and how they are not just being misinterpreted, Hawking knows what he is talking about, and has proven it beyond a doubt.

Where and how has Hawking proven beyond doubt that space-time is expanding?

Observing the stars moving away from each other and saying that "space-time must be expanding" isn't evidence that space-time is expanding.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: sillyrob on July 02, 2011, 03:16:03 PM
Tom, I have a question, do you recognize what my forum Avatar is a picture of?

Spectrum Analysis. What does that have to do with the topic of space-time expansion?

  It is not exactly spectrum analysis, it is rather: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_spectroscopy

  It is important because an Astronomy education starts with it, then expands into greater details, that help you understand all the concepts, and how they are not just being misinterpreted, Hawking knows what he is talking about, and has proven it beyond a doubt.

Where and how has Hawking proven beyond doubt that space-time is expanding?

Observing the stars moving away from each other and saying that "space-time must be expanding" isn't evidence that space-time is expanding.
Good to know observation doesn't always conclude. I guess viewing the Earth from from a human's perspective and saying it's flat isn't evidence that the Earth is flat.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2011, 03:17:49 PM
Quote
Good to know observation doesn't always conclude. I guess viewing the Earth from from a human's perspective and saying it's flat isn't evidence that the Earth is flat.

Observing the stars move away from each other is observational evidence that the stars are moving away from each other.

It does not suggest that the fabric of space-time is expanding. No one observes the fabric of space-time expanding. Space-time expansion is not an observation. Hawking did not demonstrate that this occurs in any way.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on July 02, 2011, 03:18:09 PM
Where and how has Hawking proven beyond doubt that space-time is expanding?

Observing the stars moving away from each other and saying that "space-time must be expanding" isn't evidence that space-time is expanding.

Sorunx didn't say anything about expanding space-time.  You're the one brought it up.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2011, 03:19:22 PM
Sorunx didn't say anything about expanding space-time.  You're the one brought it up.

He said that Hawking has proven his work beyond doubt.

If this is true then he should be able to show me where Hawking proved that the fabric of space-time is expanding.

In fact, where has Stephen Hawking managed to prove anything at all?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on July 02, 2011, 03:29:20 PM
Sorunx didn't say anything about expanding space-time.  You're the one brought it up.

He said that Hawking has proven his work beyond doubt.

If this is true then he should be able to show me where Hawking proved that the fabric of space-time is expanding.

In fact, where has Stephen Hawking managed to prove anything at all?

It is important because an Astronomy education starts with it, then expands into greater details, that help you understand all the concepts, and how they are not just being misinterpreted, Hawking knows what he is talking about, and has proven it beyond a doubt.

Please either improve your reading comprehension skills or stop deliberately misrepresenting other people's statements.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2011, 04:56:50 PM
He said that Hawking has proven his work beyond doubt.

Hawking knows what he is talking about, and has proven it beyond a doubt.

Hmm, sounds like the two quotes are saying the same thing to me.

Unless the poster is saying that "Hawking has proven beyond doubt that he knows what he's talking about." But that would be stupid.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on July 02, 2011, 05:00:47 PM
He said that Hawking has proven his work beyond doubt.

Hawking knows what he is talking about, and has proven it beyond a doubt.

Hmm, sounds like the two quotes are saying the same thing to me.

Unless the poster is saying that "Hawking has proven beyond doubt that he knows what he's talking about." But that would be stupid.

Are you saying that Hawking doesn't know what he's talking about?  Do you believe that you know more about astrophysics than he does?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Anythingispossible on July 02, 2011, 05:44:42 PM
He's not part of the conspiracy. He's wrong.

What basis do you have for this radical claim? He isn't well renowned for his scientific work for nothing.

He's well renowned for his hypothetical mechanisms and theories. He's not well renowned for being right. His ideas like the perpetual expansion of space-time which causes the acceleration of the universe is completely hypothetical and unproven. There is not one shred of evidence that space-time  is expanding.

Astrophysicists use fantasy to explain the cosmos. They construct overly elaborate explanations to explain the observable, the whole of which is unprovable and undemonstratable.  They gain notoriety because their fantasy models seemingly explain the unknown. They fill in the gaps of our knowledge with fantasy. They're story tellers.
A lack of evidence, although not present in this context, does not lead to the conclusion that a theory is wrong. It simply means it does not have the evidence available to prove that it is right or wrong. Your claim that he is wrong ,therefore , has no merit
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Tom Bishop on July 02, 2011, 05:48:20 PM
He said that Hawking has proven his work beyond doubt.

Hawking knows what he is talking about, and has proven it beyond a doubt.

Hmm, sounds like the two quotes are saying the same thing to me.

Unless the poster is saying that "Hawking has proven beyond doubt that he knows what he's talking about." But that would be stupid.

Are you saying that Hawking doesn't know what he's talking about?  Do you believe that you know more about astrophysics than he does?

Hawking wouldn't say that he knows beyond a power of doubt that the fabric of space-time is expanding. He would be the first to admit that his ideas are entirely speculative and that astrophysicists are little more than story tellers.

Half of his "Brief History of Time" and"On the Shoulders of Giants" is about how we know extremely little of anything.

Quote from: Anythingispossible
A lack of evidence, although not present in this context, does not lead to the conclusion that a theory is wrong. It simply means it does not have the evidence available to prove that it is right or wrong. Your claim that he is wrong ,therefore , has no merit

I have not been saying that Hawking was wrong. I've been saying that his work is utterly unproven and completely speculative.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Anythingispossible on July 02, 2011, 06:31:36 PM
Your earlier reply was; "He's not part of the conspiracy. He's wrong."

And just now you said "I have not been saying that Hawking was wrong."

What exactly are you saying?  ???
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on July 02, 2011, 06:32:54 PM
Hawking wouldn't say that he knows beyond a power of doubt that the fabric of space-time is expanding. He would be the first to admit that his ideas are entirely speculative and that astrophysicists are little more than story tellers.

Half of his "Brief History of Time" and"On the Shoulders of Giants" is about how we know extremely little of anything.

Who said that Hawking claimed that space-time expansion is known beyond doubt?  First you put words in Sorunx's mouth, and now you're putting words in Hawking's mouth.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Around And About on July 02, 2011, 11:48:40 PM
They construct overly elaborate explanations to explain the observable, the whole of which is unprovable and undemonstratable.  They gain notoriety because their fantasy models seemingly explain the unknown. They fill in the gaps of our knowledge with fantasy. They're story tellers.

Tom, your criticism of the Wiki is valid, but ease up a bit on the FE Society, please.  >:(
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Sorunx on July 03, 2011, 01:44:04 PM
 Hi sorry for my late response, but yesterday was consumed by a Dr Who Marathon with friends, part 2 of which is scheduled for today.

 Tom:  Markjo is correct, my comment was referring to how Stephen Hawking has proven beyond a doubt, that he does know what he is talking about, I specifically had Hawking Radiation in mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation) He is well established in the Scientific Community. 

Quote
Hawking wouldn't say that he knows beyond a power of doubt that the fabric of space-time is expanding. He would be the first to admit that his ideas are entirely speculative and that astrophysicists are little more than story tellers.

  This comment is absolutely insulting, and incorrect to Professor Hawking.  Furthermore, he is not an Astrophysicist, he is a Professor of Theoretical Physics, and Cosmology. 

   On to why this is relevant: 

  In your FAQ I see statements that I should reject even calling a hypothesis, they are more akin to lunatic ramblings similar to time cube, however I will attempt to over time address each and every one.  The reason I reference  Absorption Spectroscopy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_spectroscopy) is because it is a wonderful way at "looking" towards what is actually found in the cosmos.

  The science confirms the stars (for the most part) are composed entirely of the same matter as the sun, furthermore they are undergoing the same sequences and processes of transforming hydrogen into iron.  This much has been proven beyond a doubt.  If you still insist on doubting, then you are not being very Zetetic as you are to deny the observation of your senses.

 Furthermore in your FAQ I see sentiment that is wholly disregarding your other senses.  Take for example this picture of a fake dinner:

 (http://www.auntbubbiesfakefood.com/images/graphics/steakdinner.jpg)

 That image, "looks like" food.  It is not, at a first glance were I to present it to you, you might be thankful for a wonderful dinner, but would you put it in your mouth after you smell it, touch it, or try cutting it up with a knife only to find out it is rubber?  Would you insist it is real enough based upon looks alone?

 No you would confirm whether or not it is genuine based upon the collection of other data that confirms its legitimacy as food.

  What you are doing when you say the earth "Looks flat" is to completely disregard your other senses, and in fact to completely disregard your own vision.  This is the equivalent of putting on an eye patch, then shoving a basketball flush against your unobstructed eye, then attempting to discern what a basketball looks like, when you honestly can not do so.  In order to describe the basketball, you must stand back and view it from multiple angles.

 Now since we as humans lack the ability to go into space on a whim, that does not mean we cannot use our other means of perception to discern the shape of the earth.

 From a reasonably low altitude you can stand looking at the shore of a beach.  This is easy for me in California, hold a ruler up level to the horizon directly ahead of you.  Observe that outside the reach of the ruler, the edges of your viewpoint appear to curve downward.  This establishes that the earth does in fact "look" round.

 Next, you don't quite understand relativity.  When "frame of reference" is uttered, it does not require a human observer, rather it requires just another frame of reference.  Since nowhere in your FAQ do I see it mention that the disc earth consists of all of creation, then it does imply one to conclude that other frames of reference exist.  Which means, if a human were to stand on high above the earth, and observe another human getting into an elevator and go upward, from that frame of reference the human in the elevator would appear to be going faster than the speed of light.  Which is impossible, Q.E.D. Universal Acceleration is dis proven.

  I will get to every other component of your FAQ in time, one by one, each is very easy to disprove.

Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Anythingispossible on July 03, 2011, 02:52:02 PM
Hi sorry for my late response, but yesterday was consumed by a Dr Who Marathon with friends, part 2 of which is scheduled for today.

 Tom:  Markjo is correct, my comment was referring to how Stephen Hawking has proven beyond a doubt, that he does know what he is talking about, I specifically had Hawking Radiation in mind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation) He is well established in the Scientific Community. 

Quote
Hawking wouldn't say that he knows beyond a power of doubt that the fabric of space-time is expanding. He would be the first to admit that his ideas are entirely speculative and that astrophysicists are little more than story tellers.

  This comment is absolutely insulting, and incorrect to Professor Hawking.  Furthermore, he is not an Astrophysicist, he is a Professor of Theoretical Physics, and Cosmology. 

   On to why this is relevant: 

  In your FAQ I see statements that I should reject even calling a hypothesis, they are more akin to lunatic ramblings similar to time cube, however I will attempt to over time address each and every one.  The reason I reference  Absorption Spectroscopy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_spectroscopy) is because it is a wonderful way at "looking" towards what is actually found in the cosmos.

  The science confirms the stars (for the most part) are composed entirely of the same matter as the sun, furthermore they are undergoing the same sequences and processes of transforming hydrogen into iron.  This much has been proven beyond a doubt.  If you still insist on doubting, then you are not being very Zetetic as you are to deny the observation of your senses.

 Furthermore in your FAQ I see sentiment that is wholly disregarding your other senses.  Take for example this picture of a fake dinner:

 (http://www.auntbubbiesfakefood.com/images/graphics/steakdinner.jpg)

 That image, "looks like" food.  It is not, at a first glance were I to present it to you, you might be thankful for a wonderful dinner, but would you put it in your mouth after you smell it, touch it, or try cutting it up with a knife only to find out it is rubber?  Would you insist it is real enough based upon looks alone?

 No you would confirm whether or not it is genuine based upon the collection of other data that confirms its legitimacy as food.

  What you are doing when you say the earth "Looks flat" is to completely disregard your other senses, and in fact to completely disregard your own vision.  This is the equivalent of putting on an eye patch, then shoving a basketball flush against your unobstructed eye, then attempting to discern what a basketball looks like, when you honestly can not do so.  In order to describe the basketball, you must stand back and view it from multiple angles.

 Now since we as humans lack the ability to go into space on a whim, that does not mean we cannot use our other means of perception to discern the shape of the earth.

 From a reasonably low altitude you can stand looking at the shore of a beach.  This is easy for me in California, hold a ruler up level to the horizon directly ahead of you.  Observe that outside the reach of the ruler, the edges of your viewpoint appear to curve downward.  This establishes that the earth does in fact "look" round.

 Next, you don't quite understand relativity.  When "frame of reference" is uttered, it does not require a human observer, rather it requires just another frame of reference.  Since nowhere in your FAQ do I see it mention that the disc earth consists of all of creation, then it does imply one to conclude that other frames of reference exist.  Which means, if a human were to stand on high above the earth, and observe another human getting into an elevator and go upward, from that frame of reference the human in the elevator would appear to be going faster than the speed of light.  Which is impossible, Q.E.D. Universal Acceleration is dis proven.

  I will get to every other component of your FAQ in time, one by one, each is very easy to disprove.
Damn dude, that picture made me hungry.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: crackpipe larry on July 03, 2011, 03:13:26 PM
Humm... Steak..
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Mizuki on July 04, 2011, 06:34:25 AM
He's not part of the conspiracy. He's wrong.

Sorunx, thanks for starting this thread.

Tom Bishop's got my respect for being one of the very few people who can see Stephen Hawking for what he is.

I remember reading an interview with the respected journalist and science writer Bryan Appleyard when he voiced his opinion on Hawking. I remember him saying that Hawking had misunderstood Wittgenstein and on many points was 'bone-headedly wrong.' Appleyard went on to say that when he brought up these issues to Hawking, instead of engaging in a reasonable discussion, he was shocked when Hawking just wheeled himself away. This interview was in an issue of the Fortean Times, and as far as i'm aware is not available on line. Or at least it wasn't when i searched for it.

Appleyard seems to be one of the very few dissenting voices on Hawking. Which means almost everybody else has bought into the myth. I actually think that people enjoy the idea of this genius mind trapped inside a redundant body. Which is a shame.

I remember reading Appleyard's review of 'A Brief History', - it was scathing but fair.

Here's a link to Appleyard's review of Hawking's 'Universe in a Nutshell', for anyone who is interested: http://www.bryanappleyard.com/2001/11/stephen-hawkings-universe-in-a-nutshell/

Mizuki x

Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Tausami on July 04, 2011, 07:24:05 AM
He's not part of the conspiracy. He's wrong.

Sorunx, thanks for starting this thread.

Tom Bishop's got my respect for being one of the very few people who can see Stephen Hawking for what he is.

I remember reading an interview with the respected journalist and science writer Bryan Appleyard when he voiced his opinion on Hawking. I remember him saying that Hawking had misunderstood Wittgenstein and on many points was 'bone-headedly wrong.' Appleyard went on to say that when he brought up these issues to Hawking, instead of engaging in a reasonable discussion, he was shocked when Hawking just wheeled himself away. This interview was in an issue of the Fortean Times, and as far as i'm aware is not available on line. Or at least it wasn't when i searched for it.

How convenient.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Crustinator on July 04, 2011, 02:54:31 PM
He said that Hawking has proven his work beyond doubt.

Hawking knows what he is talking about, and has proven it beyond a doubt.

Hmm, sounds like the two quotes are saying the same thing to me.

Unless the poster is saying that "Hawking has proven beyond doubt that he knows what he's talking about." But that would be stupid.

Are you saying that Hawking doesn't know what he's talking about?  Do you believe that you know more about astrophysics than he does?

Hawking wouldn't say that he knows beyond a power of doubt that the fabric of space-time is expanding. He would be the first to admit that his ideas are entirely speculative and that astrophysicists are little more than story tellers.

Half of his "Brief History of Time" and"On the Shoulders of Giants" is about how we know extremely little of anything.

Quote from: Anythingispossible
A lack of evidence, although not present in this context, does not lead to the conclusion that a theory is wrong. It simply means it does not have the evidence available to prove that it is right or wrong. Your claim that he is wrong ,therefore , has no merit

I have not been saying that Hawking was wrong. I've been saying that his work is utterly unproven and completely speculative.

Tom please halt your persistent support for Steven Hawking. He is a tool of the conspiracy in fact it is quite likely that he died several years ago and the Conspiracy (NASA, KFC et al) are animating his corpse for their nefarious plans.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Felix (R) on July 04, 2011, 03:28:17 PM
excellent work Dr. Crustinator, your contributions are held in high regard by the brotherhood.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on July 04, 2011, 06:37:46 PM
I have not been saying that Hawking was wrong.

Yes you have.
He's not part of the conspiracy. He's wrong.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Mizuki on July 05, 2011, 05:11:04 AM
He's not part of the conspiracy. He's wrong.

Sorunx, thanks for starting this thread.

Tom Bishop's got my respect for being one of the very few people who can see Stephen Hawking for what he is.

I remember reading an interview with the respected journalist and science writer Bryan Appleyard when he voiced his opinion on Hawking. I remember him saying that Hawking had misunderstood Wittgenstein and on many points was 'bone-headedly wrong.' Appleyard went on to say that when he brought up these issues to Hawking, instead of engaging in a reasonable discussion, he was shocked when Hawking just wheeled himself away. This interview was in an issue of the Fortean Times, and as far as i'm aware is not available on line. Or at least it wasn't when i searched for it.

How convenient.

Tausami, for your convenience - enjoy, my friend:-

'In 1988 I interviewed Stephen Hawking just before A Brief History of Time came out. I come from a scientific family, but I wasn’t particularly interested in science as such.

I’d been writing a book about post-war British culture and I’d vaguely, without thinking about it, assumed that science and the humanities had accepted some sort of deal: science ‘explains’ one type of thing, and religion and so on ‘explained’ other things. When I interviewed Hawking, my complacency fell apart. I thought the man was bone-headedly wrong about everything!

He wasn’t even right about the stuff he put in his book. He misunderstood Wittegenstein. I tried to explain this to him, but he just wheeled himself away. I was shocked. He had this view that science was ‘completable’, that it would have this Theory of Everything within weeks. I just thought that was irrational. After all, every physicist who has ever lived has thought they were on the verge of a Theory of Everything. Also, we know from the Incompletness Theorems of  Gödel that mathematics is not completable. Finally, how would we know we had the Theory of Everything? There are various answers to that, but I think they are all likely to be wrong.'

Source: http://thefrogweb.wordpress.com/2011/03/10/bryan-appleyard/

Mizuki x

Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: SSSavio on July 05, 2011, 06:44:56 AM
Stop replying to the stupid troll named Tom Bishop. He is always trolling, and never supporting his claims with evidence. He can only claims other is wrong, newton was wrong, einstein was wrong, tesla was wrong, EVERYONE.

And he cannot prove nothing on the FE theory, he is the only one that know the real truth, so believe or avoid answering his trolling posts.

Maybe can be interesting to have a debate between Tom and Stephen Hawking, i m pretty sure that tom will be eaten alive by the genius of stephen hawking. Only problem is that hawking does not give a fuck of what tom is saying.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on July 05, 2011, 07:16:38 AM
Stop replying to the stupid troll named Tom Bishop. He is always trolling, and never supporting his claims with evidence. He can only claims other is wrong, newton was wrong, einstein was wrong, tesla was wrong, EVERYONE.

And he cannot prove nothing on the FE theory, he is the only one that know the real truth, so believe or avoid answering his trolling posts.

Maybe can be interesting to have a debate between Tom and Stephen Hawking, i m pretty sure that tom will be eaten alive by the genius of stephen hawking. Only problem is that hawking does not give a fuck of what tom is saying.
Tom Bishop could easily kick Stephen Hawking's butt. Hawking would still be busy typing "Don't hurt me" with his cheek muscles by the time Tom had ripped out both his eyes and unplugged his chair. Bishop's arms would thrash around wildly, connecting with Hawkings frail body, his eyes gleaming and his wicked laugh echoing down the halls at Cambridge University. A swift fist would enter Hawkings rectum before expertly disengaging with a kidney or two, and then driving that self same offal into Hawking's dribbling mouth.
"Say its flat you f*cking whore, say its flat with your kidneys in your mouth, bitch!".

Tom has quite a temper, you know.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Crustinator on July 05, 2011, 01:06:45 PM
Oxford University.

incorrect.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on July 05, 2011, 01:22:01 PM
fixed
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: crackpipe larry on July 05, 2011, 01:28:34 PM
Face it, Stephen hawkings has been askin for it for a while now.. 
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on July 05, 2011, 02:53:46 PM
Let's knock it off with the low content posting.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Mizuki on July 05, 2011, 03:49:16 PM
Despite the inevitable troll-fest that this thread has degenerated into, i would like to say, please do your own critical thinking about Stephen Hawking and his half-baked ideas.

All that glitters is not gold.

Mizuki x

Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Crustinator on July 06, 2011, 04:49:13 AM
Face it, Stephen hawkings has been askin for it for a while now..

He is a known troublemaker that is for sure. However, since he became a tool of the Conspiracy (NASA) he has minders with him 24/7 so is remarkably hard to get to.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: John Davis on July 08, 2011, 12:41:36 PM
Quote
Good to know observation doesn't always conclude. I guess viewing the Earth from from a human's perspective and saying it's flat isn't evidence that the Earth is flat.

Observing the stars move away from each other is observational evidence that the stars are moving away from each other.

It does not suggest that the fabric of space-time is expanding. No one observes the fabric of space-time expanding. Space-time expansion is not an observation. Hawking did not demonstrate that this occurs in any way.
Stars supposedly moving away from each other.  This is another example of RE science "filling in holes" to make their theories work.  Because something blue or red shifts it does not necessitate that it is in fact moving.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Harutsedo on July 08, 2011, 12:43:05 PM
Quote
Good to know observation doesn't always conclude. I guess viewing the Earth from from a human's perspective and saying it's flat isn't evidence that the Earth is flat.

Observing the stars move away from each other is observational evidence that the stars are moving away from each other.

It does not suggest that the fabric of space-time is expanding. No one observes the fabric of space-time expanding. Space-time expansion is not an observation. Hawking did not demonstrate that this occurs in any way.
Stars supposedly moving away from each other.  This is another example of RE science "filling in holes" to make their theories work.  Because something blue or red shifts it does not necessitate that it is in fact moving.

Do you have an alternate explanation?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: John Davis on July 08, 2011, 12:46:27 PM
Quote
Good to know observation doesn't always conclude. I guess viewing the Earth from from a human's perspective and saying it's flat isn't evidence that the Earth is flat.

Observing the stars move away from each other is observational evidence that the stars are moving away from each other.

It does not suggest that the fabric of space-time is expanding. No one observes the fabric of space-time expanding. Space-time expansion is not an observation. Hawking did not demonstrate that this occurs in any way.
Stars supposedly moving away from each other.  This is another example of RE science "filling in holes" to make their theories work.  Because something blue or red shifts it does not necessitate that it is in fact moving.

Do you have an alternate explanation?
Well first off, I dont need an alternate explanation.  If someone comes to me and says "fairies push things down to the ground at 9.81m/s/s" I am not the one with the burden of proof.  They have no first hand evidence that shows this is indeed the cause of the shifts.

Secondly, even within RE science we have several possible alternate explanations.  VSL theory comes to mind as does Dispersive Extinction Theory. 
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on July 08, 2011, 12:54:44 PM
Stars supposedly moving away from each other.  This is another example of RE science "filling in holes" to make their theories work.  Because something blue or red shifts it does not necessitate that it is in fact moving.

Actually, it's galaxies moving away from each other, not stars.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on July 08, 2011, 01:03:15 PM
Stars supposedly moving away from each other.  This is another example of RE science "filling in holes" to make their theories work.  Because something blue or red shifts it does not necessitate that it is in fact moving.

Actually, it's galaxies moving away from each other, not stars.

???

Stars move.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on July 08, 2011, 04:10:45 PM
Stars supposedly moving away from each other.  This is another example of RE science "filling in holes" to make their theories work.  Because something blue or red shifts it does not necessitate that it is in fact moving.

Actually, it's galaxies moving away from each other, not stars.

 ???

Stars move.

Yes, they do.  But I was referring to how galaxies moving apart is far more significant to the expansion of the universe than stars moving apart.  Please try to keep up, will you?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: John Davis on July 09, 2011, 01:06:45 AM
Stars supposedly moving away from each other.  This is another example of RE science "filling in holes" to make their theories work.  Because something blue or red shifts it does not necessitate that it is in fact moving.

Actually, it's galaxies moving away from each other, not stars.
Hey markjo, what are galaxies made up of?

Stars supposedly moving away from each other.  This is another example of RE science "filling in holes" to make their theories work.  Because something blue or red shifts it does not necessitate that it is in fact moving.

Actually, it's galaxies moving away from each other, not stars.

 ???

Stars move.

Yes, they do.  But I was referring to how galaxies moving apart is far more significant to the expansion of the universe than stars moving apart.  Please try to keep up, will you?
The significance relative to a larger event is irrelevant.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Crustinator on July 09, 2011, 04:15:01 AM
Has anyone shown the expansion of the universe by measuring the changing distances between stars?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Mrs. Peach on July 09, 2011, 06:38:14 AM


The significance relative to a larger event is irrelevant.

While we digress a bit, would someone explain the expanding universe theory to me?  I get the logical deductions and inferences from data but I can't understand then why all space isn't expanding, not just the outer, outer parts.  What is different, say, about inner space? Is the space in the atom expanding?  Why not? And would we even notice?  I like thinking about stuff like this while staring off into an evening sky.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Skeleton on July 09, 2011, 12:31:57 PM
Has anyone shown the expansion of the universe by measuring the changing distances between stars?

No. They have measured their speed and direction though and can thus infer that therefore their distance must be changing.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on July 09, 2011, 12:35:07 PM
Has anyone shown the expansion of the universe by measuring the changing distances between stars?

No. They have measured their speed and direction though and can thus infer that therefore their distance must be changing.
Define 'They'. Then meet me in a thread about conspiracy.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Skeleton on July 09, 2011, 12:42:02 PM


The significance relative to a larger event is irrelevant.

While we digress a bit, would someone explain the expanding universe theory to me?  I get the logical deductions and inferences from data but I can't understand then why all space isn't expanding, not just the outer, outer parts.  What is different, say, about inner space? Is the space in the atom expanding?  Why not? And would we even notice?  I like thinking about stuff like this while staring off into an evening sky.

The whole of space is expanding on a macroscopic scale, not just the far away galaxies. Imagine a compressed foam gradually foaming outwards... every part is moving away from every other part but the bits furthest from each other have greater realtive velocity and so the effect is more obvious.
However, this is not really the expansion of space as in the fundamental physical dimensions, its just objects moving further apart. If space itself were really expanding (or contracting for that matter) it is doubtful we would be able to perceive it unless certain aspects remained constant... just like if time sped up or slowed down we would still perceive it as going the same speed because our perceptions happen at a fixed rate per unit of time. Only to an outside observer in a different time frame would the difference be noticeable. But Einstein said it better than I can.
There was a sci fi short story which I can remember neither the author or title of which dealt with the universe actually getting smaller and smaller, and it was noticed by an apparent shift in light wavelengths, which remained constant, and gradually colours diappeared starting at the red end of the spectrum and ending up with no visible light at all. That was fanciful, but if space itself was getting bigger then clearly all the fundamental forces (gravity, electromagntesm, strong and weak nuke forces) are changing magnitude along with it to keep the perception of it being the same size. This would suggest that the simplest answer is that it isnt. But without something as a constant referance for comparison, you cant tell. This idea was also talked about by Einstein (and used by the FES too) in a discourse on the inability to tell gravitational force from inertia.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Skeleton on July 09, 2011, 12:46:19 PM
Has anyone shown the expansion of the universe by measuring the changing distances between stars?

No. They have measured their speed and direction though and can thus infer that therefore their distance must be changing.
Define 'They'. Then meet me in a thread about conspiracy.

They = the anyone mentioned by Crusty.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Mrs. Peach on July 09, 2011, 04:39:20 PM

The whole of space is expanding on a macroscopic scale, not just the far away galaxies. Imagine a compressed foam gradually foaming outwards... every part is moving away from every other part but the bits furthest from each other have greater realtive velocity and so the effect is more obvious.
However, this is not really the expansion of space as in the fundamental physical dimensions, its just objects moving further apart. If space itself were really expanding (or contracting for that matter) it is doubtful we would be able to perceive it unless certain aspects remained constant... just like if time sped up or slowed down we would still perceive it as going the same speed because our perceptions happen at a fixed rate per unit of time. Only to an outside observer in a different time frame would the difference be noticeable. But Einstein said it better than I can.
There was a sci fi short story which I can remember neither the author or title of which dealt with the universe actually getting smaller and smaller, and it was noticed by an apparent shift in light wavelengths, which remained constant, and gradually colours diappeared starting at the red end of the spectrum and ending up with no visible light at all. That was fanciful, but if space itself was getting bigger then clearly all the fundamental forces (gravity, electromagntesm, strong and weak nuke forces) are changing magnitude along with it to keep the perception of it being the same size. This would suggest that the simplest answer is that it isnt. But without something as a constant referance for comparison, you cant tell. This idea was also talked about by Einstein (and used by the FES too) in a discourse on the inability to tell gravitational force from inertia.

Thanks for your answer and ideas.  Trying to think of some constant that would be an unchanging yardstick, 'c' of course works as well as anything else and includes time. :)  It's beyond me anyway but still fun to imagine.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: iLoveCircles on July 17, 2011, 05:52:00 PM
Stephen Hawking used to be a vocal and powerful flat earther. NASA put him in that wheel chair and the chair just spouts out whatever they program these days. He would weep if they would fill his water bottle, once in a while >:(

Quote from: Stephen Hawking - A brief history of time (1988)
A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"

It is immensely axiomatic that Steven Hawking's beliefs do not depict any idea, or even the spark of an idea, suggesting that he believes that our round Earth is flat.

I think it a form of unusual torture, a warning to the rest of us FErs. He now has to listen to all the heretic nonsense coming from his chair, and NASA has left him so disabled after repeated beatings, that he cannot even indicate its not him talking.
I mean the chair has an American accent for Pete's sake!

You are now poking fun at a man in a wheelchair, not that the majority of people would find that behaviour exhaustively pathetic or anything. Your baseless jibes on this subject are nothing less than silly.

His chair has an American accent? Can I assume you don't? I sure hope so. I wouldn't want to be affiliated in any way to someone with such narrow minded rudeness, or beliefs taken right out of the BC era  ::)
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: MooseJuice on July 18, 2011, 12:45:04 PM
Astrophysicists use fantasy to explain the cosmos. They construct overly elaborate explanations to explain the observable, the whole of which is unprovable and undemonstratable.  They gain notoriety because their fantasy models seemingly explain the unknown. They fill in the gaps of our knowledge with fantasy. They're story tellers.

and here we gain some insight into the psyche of a FEer.  just because YOU cant understand something does not mean that somebody much more intelligent than yourself can understand it.  these astrophysicists devote there lives to studying the heavens and you should thank them, but your ideology is so out of whack that you cant even recognize their accomplishments, which truly are a grace on humanity.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Vindictus on July 18, 2011, 04:41:39 PM
and here we gain some insight into the psyche of a FEer.  just because YOU cant understand something does not mean that somebody much more intelligent than yourself can understand it.  these astrophysicists devote there lives to studying the heavens and you should thank them, but your ideology is so out of whack that you cant even recognize their accomplishments, which truly are a grace on humanity.

You're both really only saying "NO THE ASTROPHYSICISTS ARE RITE/RONG".
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: MooseJuice on July 18, 2011, 04:47:17 PM
im saying i trust the people who devote their academic and professional lives to the study of something.  Just as one would trust an architect who has devoted his academic and professional life to building to build a  functional skyscraper, one should trust an astrophysicist within his/her line of work.  they have studied it in a manner of detail that you simply have not and thus understand matters of astrophysics on a level that you do not.  how many of you FEers have a PHD and understand the level of rigor applied to this career path?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Vindictus on July 18, 2011, 05:28:33 PM
It's still an appeal to authority.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: berny_74 on July 18, 2011, 05:32:55 PM
It's still an appeal to authority.

And the ubiquitous "Read ENaG" isn't?

Berny
To Pizza or not to Pizza?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: MooseJuice on July 18, 2011, 05:34:28 PM
your argument is horrible.  authority is GAINED or LOST by whatever means.  sometimes by force, sometimes by knowledge and perseverance, etc.  these people gain their authority on the matter of astrophysics through intense academic rigor, something you obviously have no concept of.

astrophysicists aren't running around telling you how to live your life, they are just trying to explain life's mysteries.  just get it man
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Vindictus on July 18, 2011, 05:36:47 PM
your argument is horrible.  authority is GAINED or LOST by whatever means.  sometimes by force, sometimes by knowledge and perseverance, etc.  these people gain their authority on the matter of astrophysics through intense academic rigor, something you obviously have no concept of.

astrophysicists aren't running around telling you how to live your life, they are just trying to explain life's mysteries.  just get it man

That doesn't make them any less right or wrong.

And the ubiquitous "Read ENaG" isn't?

Berny
To Pizza or not to Pizza?


No, it's probably worse, considering the content of ENaG.

Vindictus
Playing the pedant
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 24, 2011, 11:05:39 PM

Stars supposedly moving away from each other.  This is another example of RE science "filling in holes" to make their theories work.  Because something blue or red shifts it does not necessitate that it is in fact moving.
Yes it does.  Redshift and blueshift is used in terrestrial applications, such as Dopler radar.  If not for the doppler effect, and the blueshift or redshift that results, doppler radar would not work.  This can be verified easily.  Infact every time you get a ticket for speeding, it's been verified to you.

Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 24, 2011, 11:25:00 PM
Has anyone shown the expansion of the universe by measuring the changing distances between stars?
I don't believe the speed at which the universe is expanding (which btw is at an increasing rate ie accelerating) is fast enough for us to have directly observed the increase in distance between galaxies in the time frame we have been studying them and the huge distance they are away from us.

There are however direct observations that make a very compelling case.   Hawking is not the first, nor the most significant researcher on cosmic inflation.  Hubble was the first person to propose the idea, for extremely good reason.  This article below has a very good summary of the reasons that inflation is considered more or less accepted by the world's scientists today.

http://www.universe-galaxies-stars.com/Metric_expansion_of_space.html

And to  clear up some earlier misunderstandings, the fabric of space-time is indeed thought to be expanding, rather than the galaxies moving away from eachother within a fix field.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 24, 2011, 11:31:16 PM
Considering your entire description of the heavens is catastrophically opposed to the description presented by cosmologists and astrophysicists, they must be in on the conspiracy right?

As you can see from the list I have been compiling everytime a FE theory requires someone to be in the pay of NASA (see below), cosmologist and astrophysicists must indeed be in on the conspiracy.

Quote
The NASA big three are really wishing right now they'd never started this bloody conspiracy....it's getting a bit expensive paying off: various actors involved in faked artic bases, moonlandings etc, family and loved one's of disposed-of artic explorers paid to keep quiet, cell phone tower engineers, management and firmware designers , The many thousands of civilians who witnessed shuttle launches, the media that reported the shuttle launches, and the police, army and airforce who provided the shuttle launch security, Cosmologists, fake arctic scientists, arctic set builders, artic computer graphics designers, Geophysists, professional astronomers, global climate scientists, particle physicists and partical accelerator designers, telecommunications engineers, astro-physicists, NASA boffins, engineers, astronauts, ground crew, contractors, Indian, Chinese, European and Russian space agencies, private satelitte launch company management and engineers, gps manufacturers, ham radio operators (the vhf line of sight conspiracy), international airline pilots, flight path designers, "gps" aircraft pilots, mapping companies, surveyors, radar operators and manufacturers, ballistics engineers and ice wall guards, the world's body of amatuer astronomers, Microsoft founder Paul Allen, Virgin owner Richard Branson, Burt Rutan, Brian Binnie, Mike Melvill (BB and MM, they just gotta be made up names), doctors, hospital administrators, moonburn patients, nurses and pharmacists, artic south pole explorers, circumnavigators.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Agnostic on August 25, 2011, 12:16:26 AM
As you can see from the list I have been compiling everytime a FE theory requires someone to be in the pay of NASA (see below), cosmologist and astrophysicists must indeed be in on the conspiracy.

There are many people in your list that I do not see as part of the conspiracy.

I do not know how you came to that amount of people.

A conspiracy cannot work with that many people involved. You should improve your list so it focuses on where the problem really is:

1. NASA
2. Governments
3. Telecom operators

and consider that only the top management (or side people of the top management) is part of the conspiracy.

There are many examples of dishonesty from telecom operators, NASA and governments.

Look at, for example about telecom operators :

http://www.greenworldinvestor.com/2011/03/29/cbi-2g-telecom-scandal-criminal-conspiracycheating-charge-against-essarreliance-communicationswill-sc-throw-top-executives-in-jail-like-raja/

(not related to the FET, but still, demonstrates dishonesty of these people)
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 25, 2011, 01:21:20 AM
As you can see from the list I have been compiling everytime a FE theory requires someone to be in the pay of NASA (see below), cosmologist and astrophysicists must indeed be in on the conspiracy.

There are many people in your list that I do not see as part of the conspiracy.

I do not know how you came to that amount of people.

A conspiracy cannot work with that many people involved. You should improve your list so it focuses on where the problem really is:

1. NASA
2. Governments
3. Telecom operators

and consider that only the top management (or side people of the top management) is part of the conspiracy.

There are many examples of dishonesty from telecom operators, NASA and governments.

Look at, for example about telecom operators :

http://www.greenworldinvestor.com/2011/03/29/cbi-2g-telecom-scandal-criminal-conspiracycheating-charge-against-essarreliance-communicationswill-sc-throw-top-executives-in-jail-like-raja/

(not related to the FET, but still, demonstrates dishonesty of these people)
I compiled the list from people inferred by FE'ers as necessary to be in on the conspiracy in order to validate some outlandish theory, or some outlandish disproof, that the FE'er proposed.

For example: Airline Pilots.

Airline pilots study mathematics and navigation.  They know the airpspeed of their aircraft, travel time and the distance on a RET map.  They would, without any doubt whatsoever, eventually observe that the distances they could manually calculate did not tarry with the RET map.  It would become commonly discussed knowledge amongst pilots.  It would be brought up at conventions, with employers etc.  NASA must have stepped in fairly early in the piece to buy off all the pilots.  They must also have established a body whose responsibility was ensuring all new pilots were brought onto the payroll as they started active employment.  This body would have to large enough to administer the buy-off scheme to thousands of pilots a year, involving a whole other group of office administrators, clerks and accountants doing the work onf this body.  A large proportion (though not all) would need to have atleast the knowledge that the pilots were being bought off, even if they didn't know the exact details.

The things is this is just the pilots.  Take the HAM radio and vhf line of sight conspiracy.  There are atleast tens of thousands of HAM operators throughout the world.  Most of them have a very thorough knowledge of radio theory and how radio waves travel and propogate.  If the earth was round as the theories say, then their radio signals wouldn't reach around the world (in vhf band).  Since their radio signals do reach (according to FET) across the world, any ham radio operator worth a pinch of salt would soon notice this.  Again, NASA will have had to step in to pay of all the HAM radio operators around the world to get them to keep hush hush about the fact their vhf signals can travel to all corners of the disc, even though they should not be able to do so, according to the RET model.

So you see, there is a snowball affect of people NASA have to pay off to keep the conspiracy going.  It's quite a task.  I do wonder were all the money is comming from.  NASA's budget for 2008 was $17 billion.  Let's say 20000 people are all given 1 million to keep quiet.  Remember just paying them a few thousand isn't going to cut it.  It needs to be a lot of money.  Plus some people, like Richard Branson, are already very rich so will need a lot more than 1 million dollars.   So I think it's a conservative estimate to say that 20,000 people need to be paid 1 million dollars per year to even start keeping the conspiracy quiet:

2000 HAM operators
2000 Scientists  (really this would be many  many more - astrophysicist, geophysicists, climate scientists, astronomers and many more whose work directly involves working with RE theories that would be proven invalid by a Flat Earth - they would need to be paid off big time)
2000 Engineers
2000 Airline Pilots
2000 Doctors
2000 Nurses
2000 Manufacturer CEO's (not even including R&D teams)
2000 Surveyors
2000 Amateur astronomers
2000 GPS chip firmware designers

20000 x 1000000 = 20 billion, about equal to NASA's budget.   And that's not their take home budget after they pay all their own people (even the one's who aren't in in the conspiracy need to be paid), rent, office admin, power and all the other things an organisation of that size has to spend money on.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 01:24:02 AM
Airline pilots program a flight management computer. Lord only knows what it computes but it undoubtedly factors for the earth being flat without the pilots even knowing.
VHF works well in a flat earth too. ::) LOS is just that. You want to see them from further away, you need to make the beacons more powerful.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Agnostic on August 25, 2011, 01:27:02 AM
Kurt Gödel, the famous mathematician, explained that nothing can ultimately be demonstrated.

So I fail to see how Hawking could have "without doubt" demonstrated this or that, when famous mathematicians tell it is not possible.

Hawking is not a dishonnest guy, but he is human and is not that smart.

I think most people think he is a genius because he is paralyzed, and so people want to be nice with him.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 25, 2011, 01:34:37 AM
Airline pilots program a flight management computer. Lord only knows what it computes but it undoubtedly factors for the earth being flat without the pilots even knowing.
VHF works well in a flat earth too. ::) LOS is just that. You want to see them from further away, you need to make the beacons more powerful.

Wrong.  Airline pilots rely on the computer for routine tasks, but they are trained, and use from time to time manual calculations.  If you think pilots are so dumb that all they do is get in a plane, boot up the computer and punch in some co-ordinates then leave the rest to the computer, then you rather arrogantly underestimate the ability and intelligence an airline pilot requires to get their wings.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 01:37:36 AM
Being as I have a commercial pilots license, I am well aware of what a pilot does and does not do. You rather arrogantly underestimated my ability and intelligence. I have my wings.

You are also wrong. They do just punch stuff in. An aircraft spends 99% of its time on autopilot. When the pilot is flying the plane, something went badly wrong.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 25, 2011, 02:07:45 AM
Being as I have a commercial pilots license, I am well aware of what a pilot does and does not do. You rather arrogantly underestimated my ability and intelligence. I have my wings.

You are also wrong. They do just punch stuff in. An aircraft spends 99% of its time on autopilot. When the pilot is flying the plane, something went badly wrong.
If you have never done it, I suggest, next time you are on an international flight, as well as relying on autopilot, manually plot your course, airspeed and time travelled, and compare it to both FET and RET maps, and show us the data.  This would be a very important support of the FET theory (or evidence against it).
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 02:12:56 AM
For the reasons I illustrate here (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=43358.msg1074475#msg1074475) and here (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=43358.msg1075368#msg1075368), providing that data would be worthless.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 25, 2011, 03:38:23 AM
For the reasons I illustrate here (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=43358.msg1074475#msg1074475) and here (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=43358.msg1075368#msg1075368), providing that data would be worthless.
On certain routes the difference in flying time for RET compared to FET can not be accounted for by headwinds and so forth.

If you really are a commercial airline pilot, then it simply confirms you as a troll.   Infact you are probably a composite character invented by a bunch of airline pilots having a good old laugh right now  ;D   The foil hat gives it way completely.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 03:44:03 AM
The foil hat is because we are playing an alien game in the social fora. You will notice many other users have alien avatars right now.
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=49957.msg1227466#msg1227466) shows why I decided to change my avatar. The social element of this site has nothing to do with earth shape science.

I can assure you I am one person.

It can all be accounted for. RErs often make issues where there are none. People do not conduct lots of flights around the South Pole. Its a happy coincidence for the conspiracy that no one goes there.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 25, 2011, 04:14:47 AM
The foil hat is because we are playing an alien game in the social fora. You will notice many other users have alien avatars right now.
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=49957.msg1227466#msg1227466) shows why I decided to change my avatar. The social element of this site has nothing to do with earth shape science.

I can assure you I am one person.

It can all be accounted for. RErs often make issues where there are none. People do not conduct lots of flights around the South Pole. Its a happy coincidence for the conspiracy that no one goes there.
Sydney to Buenos Aires would probably be sufficient.  Or Auckland to Santiago.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 04:15:37 AM
The foil hat is because we are playing an alien game in the social fora. You will notice many other users have alien avatars right now.
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=49957.msg1227466#msg1227466) shows why I decided to change my avatar. The social element of this site has nothing to do with earth shape science.

I can assure you I am one person.

It can all be accounted for. RErs often make issues where there are none. People do not conduct lots of flights around the South Pole. Its a happy coincidence for the conspiracy that no one goes there.
Sydney to Buenos Aires would probably be sufficient.  Or Auckland to Santiago.

Yeah, real popular flights. You done those ones? ::)
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 25, 2011, 04:34:27 AM
Nah.... I'm not that interested in spending thousands of dollars (and studying navigation) to prove something to you that I am quite satsfied is proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt through many other evidences.

Especially when you'll tell me I'm a lier when I come back with the evidence  ;)
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 04:41:54 AM
Nah.... I'm not that interested in spending thousands of dollars (and studying navigation) to prove something to you that I am quite satsfied is proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt through many other evidences.

Especially when you'll tell me I'm a lier when I come back with the evidence  ;)

I'd probably make a better effort of spelling it though. :)
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 25, 2011, 04:50:09 AM
Nah.... I'm not that interested in spending thousands of dollars (and studying navigation) to prove something to you that I am quite satsfied is proved to me beyond a shadow of a doubt through many other evidences.

Especially when you'll tell me I'm a lier when I come back with the evidence  ;)

I'd probably make a better effort of spelling it though. :)
hey if this was a journalistic piece I'd have proof read it but since it's not, I'm putting in about as much effort as FE'ers do in developing their theories   :)
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on August 25, 2011, 12:58:26 PM
Being as I have a commercial pilots license, I am well aware of what a pilot does and does not do. You rather arrogantly underestimated my ability and intelligence. I have my wings.

Seeing as you didn't seem to know anything about pilots using celestial navigation, I can only wonder as to the true value of your commercial pilot's license.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 01:02:55 PM
What a dumb thing to write. Pilots are not trained in celestial navigation. I know this to be a fact, because I have been trained as a pilot, but at no point was I trained in celestial navigation.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on August 25, 2011, 01:37:49 PM
What a dumb thing to write. Pilots are not trained in celestial navigation. I know this to be a fact, because I have been trained as a pilot, but at no point was I trained in celestial navigation.

I didn't say that you were trained in celestial navigation.  I have not been trained in celestial navigation either.  However I am aware that pilots were trained in celestial navigation (among other lost arts) before the days of satellite navigation.  Seeing as you were unaware of even the historical use of celestial navigation in aviation, it makes me wonder how comprehensive your training really was.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 01:41:12 PM
Do the US marines learn how Roman soldiers used catapults, or do they not have comprehensive training? Take your strawmen elsewhere.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: berny_74 on August 25, 2011, 02:08:27 PM
Do the US marines learn how Roman soldiers used catapults, or do they not have comprehensive training? Take your strawmen elsewhere.

I pretty much guarantee that a US marine could explain what a catapult was though.  I did find it confounding that you had a belief that prior to modern navigation aids pilots flew willy nilly through the air. 

And

Airline pilots program a flight management computer. Lord only knows what it computes but it undoubtedly factors for the earth being flat without the pilots even knowing.
VHF works well in a flat earth too. ::) LOS is just that. You want to see them from further away, you need to make the beacons more powerful.

What about before the FMS in 1979?  And how about when the FMS loses its functionality?

Berny
Yes they even had automated periscope sextants for aircraft
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 02:16:34 PM
Do the US marines learn how Roman soldiers used catapults, or do they not have comprehensive training? Take your strawmen elsewhere.

I pretty much guarantee that a US marine could explain what a catapult was though.  I did find it confounding that you had a belief that prior to modern navigation aids pilots flew willy nilly through the air. 
And I know what celestial navigation is. Could a US marine explain how catapults are tuned musically by Romans for symmetrical power? Is that part of the training?

Airline pilots program a flight management computer. Lord only knows what it computes but it undoubtedly factors for the earth being flat without the pilots even knowing.
VHF works well in a flat earth too. ::) LOS is just that. You want to see them from further away, you need to make the beacons more powerful.

What about before the FMS in 1979? 
Are you suggesting that before 1979 all flights took place at night? And that beacons did not exist?

And how about when the FMS loses its functionality?
I told you before not to joke about that. >:(

Berny
Yes they even had automated periscope sextants for aircraft
What an expert. I don't know why they bother training us when people like Berny know it all already.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on August 25, 2011, 02:20:01 PM
Do the US marines learn how Roman soldiers used catapults, or do they not have comprehensive training? Take your strawmen elsewhere.

Celestial navigation was taught to military pilots by the US Air Force and Navy until 1997.  It's hardly ancient history.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 02:26:16 PM
Do the US marines learn how Roman soldiers used catapults, or do they not have comprehensive training? Take your strawmen elsewhere.

Celestial navigation was taught to military pilots by the US Air Force and Navy until 1997.  It's hardly ancient history.
If you are going to quote me, please then respond to the quote. I asked if US soldiers where trained how to use Roman catapults?

I did not do my training before 1997. I was only 19 in 1997. Why are you criticising the fact that I have not been trained in celestial navigation, when even the US military gave up on it 14 years ago?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: markjo on August 25, 2011, 03:02:01 PM
Do the US marines learn how Roman soldiers used catapults, or do they not have comprehensive training? Take your strawmen elsewhere.

Celestial navigation was taught to military pilots by the US Air Force and Navy until 1997.  It's hardly ancient history.
If you are going to quote me, please then respond to the quote. I asked if US soldiers where trained how to use Roman catapults?

I did not do my training before 1997. I was only 19 in 1997. Why are you criticising the fact that I have not been trained in celestial navigation, when even the US military gave up on it 14 years ago?

I am not criticizing you for not being trained in celestial navigation.  I am criticizing you for not being familiar with the fact that celestial navigation has been used in aircraft.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 25, 2011, 04:22:02 PM

And I know what celestial navigation is. Could a US marine explain how catapults are tuned musically by Romans for symmetrical power? Is that part of the training?
 
Tuned aurally I think you mean, or did they actually play a salute to the emperor in c major?

interesting factoid btw, thanks for that.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 25, 2011, 04:23:10 PM
I am aware that celestial navigation has been used in aircraft. ???


And I know what celestial navigation is. Could a US marine explain how catapults are tuned musically by Romans for symmetrical power? Is that part of the training?
 
Tuned aurally I think you mean, or did they actually play a salute to the emperor in c major?

interesting factoid btw, thanks for that.
Tuned as in musically to get a note and thereby, ensuring the tension to be correct.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: pitdroidtech on August 25, 2011, 04:40:49 PM
I am aware that celestial navigation has been used in aircraft. ???


And I know what celestial navigation is. Could a US marine explain how catapults are tuned musically by Romans for symmetrical power? Is that part of the training?
 
Tuned aurally I think you mean, or did they actually play a salute to the emperor in c major?

interesting factoid btw, thanks for that.
Tuned as in musically to get a note and thereby, ensuring the tension to be correct.
yes I get that, but a note is a note, music is a string of notes.  I was just wondering what tune they played?  Perhaps it was "when the saints go marching in".  Are we talking pre or post Chistian emperors? 

Actually it's true, if the catapault has multiple points of tension (apart from the two left and right which obviously have to be the same note), they could have used them to sing the soldiers to sleep at night, like giant harps...

Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Agnostic on August 25, 2011, 04:43:26 PM
I am having a hard time in following you guys, has the thread derailed?
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: berny_74 on August 25, 2011, 06:05:46 PM
I am having a hard time in following you guys, has the thread derailed?

Thork is here.


And I know what celestial navigation is. Could a US marine explain how catapults are tuned musically by Romans for symmetrical power? Is that part of the training?
The point was why should you know that celestial navigation existed for aircraft flights.  You had no clue.  Then instead of researching it in that thread you made up some willy-nilly story that celestial navigation was never used on aircraft.  I have no problems with you not being trained on it - as I realize that U.S. Marines rarely use catapults.  I stated that Marines knew of their existence - which you did not and pulled a Tom Bishop.


Are you suggesting that before 1979 all flights took place at night? And that beacons did not exist?
You are the one stating that the FMS leads pilots wily-nilly through the skies without their knowledge of where they are so they will never truly now the shape of the Earth.  So before FMS what conspiracy tool made up these random flight paths to hide the true shape of the Earth?
And why do you think celestial navigation is only done at night?

And how about when the FMS loses its functionality?
I told you before not to joke about that. >:(
Well an answer would be nice.

Berny
Yes they even had automated periscope sextants for aircraft
What an expert. I don't know why they bother training us when people like Berny know it all already.
Actually I didn't know how automated they were until I looked more into it during the thread when you argued celsestial navigation was only used to find the north star.

I am having a hard time in following you guys, has the thread derailed?
What was the original topic anyhow?

Berny

Wow.
Marines using a catapult.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Thork on August 26, 2011, 11:52:16 AM
And I know what celestial navigation is. Could a US marine explain how catapults are tuned musically by Romans for symmetrical power? Is that part of the training?
The point was why should you know that celestial navigation existed for aircraft flights.  You had no clue.  Then instead of researching it in that thread you made up some willy-nilly story that celestial navigation was never used on aircraft.  I have no problems with you not being trained on it - as I realize that U.S. Marines rarely use catapults.  I stated that Marines knew of their existence - which you did not and pulled a Tom Bishop.
I had every clue.

And how about when the FMS loses its functionality?
I told you before not to joke about that. >:(
Well an answer would be nice.
Holding back the tears, one announces on the radio "Mayday, Mayday Mayday! Speedbird one fife two is a 737 from Heathrow to Geneva. Currently fifty miles south of Paris, flight level tree fife zero. FMS is defective, request vectors to nearest diversion."
To which one would expect
"God alive man, we are going to get you down! Hang in there! Turn left heading zero niner fife and descend flight level two hundred. We will clear all traffic and give you a straight in approach for Lyon Airport."
To which one should gratefully reply
"Thank you so much. We are all counting on you up here. "
The first officer is then expected to allow the Captain to use the toilet first.

Berny
Yes they even had automated periscope sextants for aircraft
What an expert. I don't know why they bother training us when people like Berny know it all already.
Actually I didn't know how automated they were until I looked more into it during the thread when you argued celsestial navigation was only used to find the north star.
That is probably the last time I follow Tom Bishop into a thread that he subsequently may abandon.

I am having a hard time in following you guys, has the thread derailed?
What was the original topic anyhow?
Stephen Hawking; puppet for the conspiracy.

Berny

Wow.
Marines using a catapult.
Its probably exactly what they do on team building exercises, but I am speculating.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Hazbollah on August 26, 2011, 12:15:08 PM
Do the US marines learn how Roman soldiers used catapults, or do they not have comprehensive training? Take your strawmen elsewhere.

Celestial navigation was taught to military pilots by the US Air Force and Navy until 1997.  It's hardly ancient history.
In fact, I believe the Andrew still train Watch officers in the use of sextants.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: Mrs. Peach on August 26, 2011, 12:32:06 PM
Sextant use on an aircraft being somewhat tricky, a bubble sextant would be easier and more usual.  I guess its use would require a little specialized training.
Title: Re: From your viewpoint, are people like Stephen Hawking in on the conspiracy?
Post by: John Davis on December 20, 2011, 05:49:17 PM
I am aware that celestial navigation has been used in aircraft. ???


And I know what celestial navigation is. Could a US marine explain how catapults are tuned musically by Romans for symmetrical power? Is that part of the training?
 
Tuned aurally I think you mean, or did they actually play a salute to the emperor in c major?

interesting factoid btw, thanks for that.
Tuned as in musically to get a note and thereby, ensuring the tension to be correct.
yes I get that, but a note is a note, music is a string of notes.  I was just wondering what tune they played?  Perhaps it was "when the saints go marching in".  Are we talking pre or post Chistian emperors? 
Music is not necessarily a string of notes.   The absence of art makes art.