The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Q&A => Topic started by: Ali on May 04, 2011, 04:33:55 PM

Title: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 04, 2011, 04:33:55 PM
As above. How did it form, how did the solar system form around it, what caused it to fly through space accelerating as it goes? What is it's purpose? RE has a complete and plausible formation theory within the heliocentric solar system, but what caused a 9000km deep disc to randomly form, have planetary bodies orbit it despite a lack of gravity, and how can a 32 mile diameter sun maintain it's heat for 13.7 billion years?
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on May 04, 2011, 04:42:36 PM
As above. How did it form, how did the solar system form around it, what caused it to fly through space accelerating as it goes? What is it's purpose? RE has a complete and plausible formation theory within the heliocentric solar system, but what caused a 9000km deep disc to randomly form, have planetary bodies orbit it despite a lack of gravity, and how can a 32 mile diameter sun maintain it's heat for 13.7 billion years?

Quite simply, we cannot say. We do not have legions of people to research this subject ever day as their job. Come back when we have more time to research this.

Do note though, that this is no different than asking where the matter in the universe came from. We simply do not know at the moment.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 04, 2011, 04:47:02 PM
No it's not. RE can provide a very plausible theory. It doesn't require research, just explanation. THe circular (and spherical) nature of the galaxies we can visualise is incredibly obvious, so it didn't take much imagination to see how the solar system could have formed. But FE? This is going to have be one very imaginative story....
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on May 04, 2011, 04:58:08 PM
No it's not. RE can provide a very plausible theory. It doesn't require research, just explanation.

Derp, people require data and research to create theories.

Sure, it only requires explanation, after the research has been done.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: gotham on May 04, 2011, 06:53:01 PM
ITT the superiority of FET. 

Just because there are storybooks that weave the tale of RET and people share the story as true, the belief in the story does not make it real.

Just because a toy called a globe becomes popular and follows the writings of the storybook, the belief in the globe does not make it real. 

FET has it right.  Do the research, accumulate the data and write about it as the truth emerges.   
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Crustinator on May 04, 2011, 06:58:39 PM
As above. How did it form, how did the solar system form around it, what caused it to fly through space accelerating as it goes? What is it's purpose? RE has a complete and plausible formation theory within the heliocentric solar system, but what caused a 9000km deep disc to randomly form, have planetary bodies orbit it despite a lack of gravity, and how can a 32 mile diameter sun maintain it's heat for 13.7 billion years?

1. Few FE believers claim the earth is accelerating.
2. Dinosaurs.
3. Moonshrimp.
4. The earth is only 9000 years old. That is not nearly enough time to form a "sun".
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Around And About on May 04, 2011, 07:54:50 PM
4. The earth is only 9000 years old. That is not nearly enough time to form a "sun".

Ahh. How much time is needed to form a "sun"?
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 05, 2011, 12:13:54 AM
As above. How did it form, how did the solar system form around it, what caused it to fly through space accelerating as it goes? What is it's purpose? RE has a complete and plausible formation theory within the heliocentric solar system, but what caused a 9000km deep disc to randomly form, have planetary bodies orbit it despite a lack of gravity, and how can a 32 mile diameter sun maintain it's heat for 13.7 billion years?

1. Few FE believers claim the earth is accelerating.
2. Dinosaurs.
3. Moonshrimp.
4. The earth is only 9000 years old. That is not nearly enough time to form a "sun".

1. Really? What about your bizarre explanation of gravity then?
2. Dinosaurs? MAde the disc? Crapped out the disc? Vomitted up the disc? Elaborate.
3. Are a ridiculous concept.
4. No it's not. Only Palestinian zombie worshipers believe such nonsense. Everyone else thinks they're mindnumbingly thick.

Which brings us to the problem of your "debates". You ask people to prove the Earth is round, and try and come up with ever more ludicrous reasons to disprove solid science, yet when you are asked to prove your FE theory, you can't, so you deflect the argument.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: A.R. Wallace on May 05, 2011, 03:46:08 AM
4. The earth is only 9000 years old. That is not nearly enough time to form a "sun".
4. No it's not. Only Palestinian zombie worshipers believe such nonsense. Everyone else thinks they're mindnumbingly thick.

Got any evidence for that statement?  By Palestinian Zombie worship I assume you mean Christians?  Are Christians the only ones who believe the earth to be a few thousand years old?  No other culture does?
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 05, 2011, 05:03:09 AM
4. The earth is only 9000 years old. That is not nearly enough time to form a "sun".
4. No it's not. Only Palestinian zombie worshipers believe such nonsense. Everyone else thinks they're mindnumbingly thick.

Got any evidence for that statement?  By Palestinian Zombie worship I assume you mean Christians?  Are Christians the only ones who believe the earth to be a few thousand years old?  No other culture does?

I suspect there are other poorly educated people who do, but you're, again, deflecting  and arguing over trivial detail whilst not answering the questions raised. Enough pedantry, give me your theories. I have read many of your threads and the FAQ over the past few days and, despite a lot of scientific willy waving, all I see are long arguments over nothing and a seeming inability of FE proposers to actually offer any form of proof or validation themselves. You are the first people to shout "prove it" to any scientific theory brought up to support the RE "theory" (it isn't a theory, it's fact, unless you're completely paranoid), but you are always the last people to actually offer proof of your own theory. In fact, I've seen absolutely nothing so far. 7 years of threads and not an ounce of proof? You're not doing very well, so far, are you?
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: A.R. Wallace on May 05, 2011, 12:51:48 PM
Pot, kettle, black.

You basically have no real arguments at all, just silly name calling.  And yet you demand better of others.  Nice.
BTW, I doubt you have read MY theories and MY FAQ.  I'm new here.  And you don't even have a clue what I believe - apparently you don't wish to know.  All that and you wish to be taken seriously?  You have a very long way to go.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Raist on May 05, 2011, 02:33:29 PM
No it's not. RE can provide a very plausible theory. It doesn't require research, just explanation. THe circular (and spherical) nature of the galaxies we can visualise is incredibly obvious, so it didn't take much imagination to see how the solar system could have formed. But FE? This is going to have be one very imaginative story....

So where did all the mass in the solar system come from? The big bang explains its expansion, but not its origin. Please enlighten us.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 05, 2011, 03:06:30 PM
You know the answer to that, as do I. But the point 1/100,000th of a second on from the Big Bang is far better understood, and it gives a rational explanation for the formation of heliocentric solar systems and spherical planetary bodies and moons. Now stop diverting the argument. Explain the origin of your disc. In fact, provide ANY evidence for your disc at all. You haven't in 7 years, as far as I can see from your archives, all you seem to do is argue over pointless semantics and trivial detail and never actually present any valid evidence. If you're going to play scientific devil's advocates, you might want to start from a footing that isn't comedically and scientifically awful.

Carry on... evidence....
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 05, 2011, 03:11:17 PM
Pot, kettle, black.

You basically have no real arguments at all, just silly name calling.  And yet you demand better of others.  Nice.
BTW, I doubt you have read MY theories and MY FAQ.  I'm new here.  And you don't even have a clue what I believe - apparently you don't wish to know.  All that and you wish to be taken seriously?  You have a very long way to go.

I have no intention of being taken seriously or otherwise as I don't care what you or anyone thinks of me. I want evidence provided to back up the absurd claim that the FE "supporters" propose. I also don't care what you think or believe because I don't know you, and I have no wish to know your theories unless you can actually present the evidence I have asked for in this thread. As for name calling, I will happily call anyone who believes in a flat earth, or anything contained within the FAQ, either naive, stupid or a troll, until proper validated evidence is presented to qualify the statements made. I will happily eat my own words should it be provided but I strongly suspect my words will remain undigested for a very long time....
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Around And About on May 05, 2011, 03:16:38 PM
Regardless of the earth's actual shape, if FET ever managed to demonstrate a tiny fraction of RET's explanatory and predictive power then I would be thoroughly impressed.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Crustinator on May 05, 2011, 03:20:06 PM
1. Really? What about your bizarre explanation of gravity then?

It is an excellent explanation.

2. Dinosaurs? MAde the disc? Crapped out the disc? Vomitted up the disc? Elaborate.

Dinosaurs were responsible for much around you. Please respect their work.

3. Are a ridiculous concept.

Please do not mock our beliefs.

4. No it's not. Only Palestinian zombie worshipers believe such nonsense. Everyone else thinks they're mindnumbingly thick.

Do not attack me with insults because I will retaliate with facts.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 05, 2011, 03:25:38 PM
I'll be interested in you when you actually start providing facts. Facts backed by evidence. And belief has no place in science. But you're a long way from anything resembling science.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Crustinator on May 05, 2011, 03:27:27 PM
And belief has no place in science.

So I take it you do not believe the earth is round?

ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FLAT EARTH!
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 05, 2011, 03:31:56 PM
And belief has no place in science.

So I take it you do not believe the earth is round?

ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FLAT EARTH!

I KNOW the Earth is round, I have no need for faith or belief.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Vindictus on May 05, 2011, 03:44:26 PM
And belief has no place in science.

So I take it you do not believe the earth is round?

ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FLAT EARTH!

I KNOW the Earth is round, I have need for faith or belief.

How do you know this?
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 05, 2011, 04:24:30 PM
Overwhelming evidence. Something you have none of.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Particle Person on May 05, 2011, 04:27:26 PM
Overwhelming evidence. Something you have none of.

Q: How do you know the earth is round?
A: Evidence!

Gee, debating is easy!
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: john_hand on May 05, 2011, 04:30:02 PM
ITT the superiority of FET. 

Just because there are storybooks that weave the tale of RET and people share the story as true, the belief in the story does not make it real.

Just because a toy called a globe becomes popular and follows the writings of the storybook, the belief in the globe does not make it real. 

FET has it right.  Do the research, accumulate the data and write about it as the truth emerges.   

I hope you can help me, it sounds liek you're the man to talk too! I am desperate to fully embrace this conspiracy, and I have read up on the topic, including earth is not a globe. however, I cannot find any research or evidence on it past this book, with is really old, it is from the 1880's. I cannot do my own research as it is prohibitivly expensive, as mentioned in a post above, so please help a disc earther soak it in, where is it m,point me to the modern work so I can prove my brothers wrong!
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: john_hand on May 05, 2011, 04:33:13 PM
Pot, kettle, black.

You basically have no real arguments at all, just silly name calling.  And yet you demand better of others.  Nice.
BTW, I doubt you have read MY theories and MY FAQ.  I'm new here.  And you don't even have a clue what I believe - apparently you don't wish to know.  All that and you wish to be taken seriously?  You have a very long way to go.

please just prove him wrong, just do it and shut him up, the evidence must be there, sock it to him brother, he's aggressivly lambasted all the posters I have seen him talk too, he deserves what's coming, FE VICTORY
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 05, 2011, 04:34:51 PM
Overwhelming evidence. Something you have none of.

Q: How do you know the earth is round?
A: Evidence!

Gee, debating is easy!

Earth being round, and ever so slightly awesome:

(http://free.bridal-shower-themes.com/img/picture-of-earth-from-space_3.jpg)

I've shown you mine, you show me yours.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Particle Person on May 05, 2011, 04:37:43 PM
(http://www.3dhifi.com/pics/earth_s.jpg)
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Around And About on May 05, 2011, 04:38:30 PM
Ali, what you are viewing is the illuminated portion of a flat disc, and perspective optics vanishing point refraction Photoshop.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: gotham on May 05, 2011, 04:44:11 PM
ITT the superiority of FET. 

Just because there are storybooks that weave the tale of RET and people share the story as true, the belief in the story does not make it real.

Just because a toy called a globe becomes popular and follows the writings of the storybook, the belief in the globe does not make it real. 

FET has it right.  Do the research, accumulate the data and write about it as the truth emerges.   

I hope you can help me, it sounds liek you're the man to talk too! I am desperate to fully embrace this conspiracy, and I have read up on the topic, including earth is not a globe. however, I cannot find any research or evidence on it past this book, with is really old, it is from the 1880's. I cannot do my own research as it is prohibitivly expensive, as mentioned in a post above, so please help a disc earther soak it in, where is it m,point me to the modern work so I can prove my brothers wrong!

Thanks for your fine comments.  There are more advanced conspiricist theorists than myself that will assist you in that particular area.  It sounds like you have a good start on your research. The point of my post is to bring to light the limitations of the RET process.  From what I understand there are relevant contemporary FET books in the works so we do look forward to their publication.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 05, 2011, 04:46:39 PM
Ali, what you are viewing is the illuminated portion of a flat disc, and perspective optics vanishing point refraction Photoshop.

Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Around And About on May 05, 2011, 04:59:51 PM
Ali, what you are viewing is the illuminated portion of a flat disc, and perspective optics vanishing point refraction Photoshop.



Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 05, 2011, 05:12:53 PM
And? That's clearly CGI. So your nonsense forum is prepared to right off the single greatest achievements mankind has ever made as a "conspiracy" and only you lot know the truth? You do have amazingly inflated egos.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Around And About on May 05, 2011, 05:46:44 PM
And? That's clearly CGI. So your nonsense forum is prepared to right off the single greatest achievements mankind has ever made as a "conspiracy" and only you lot know the truth? You do have amazingly inflated egos.

You're right, I apologize...I will take down my nonsense forum after this month runs out. :(
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: A.R. Wallace on May 05, 2011, 08:19:33 PM
Ali, you actually have no interest in the truth at all, just in being "right."   Zealots are tiresome, no matter their beliefs.
Your only arguments are either insults - or some videos you found on youtube.   Zzzzzzz.........

Really - you want to debate?  At least try.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: c47man on May 05, 2011, 10:26:18 PM
You guys are the ones not trying! He asked for evidence. The best way to get rid of him is to give him the evidence.

Either you like arguing with people you don't like, or you don't have any evidence and are trying to take the fight to Ali, not Ali's argument. Either way you're kindergarteners.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on May 05, 2011, 11:41:21 PM
And? That's clearly CGI. So your nonsense forum is prepared to right off the single greatest achievements mankind has ever made as a "conspiracy" and only you lot know the truth? You do have amazingly inflated egos.

How is that "clearly" CGI? I think that time lapse video that was posted was clearly CGI.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: c47man on May 06, 2011, 02:03:28 AM
And? That's clearly CGI. So your nonsense forum is prepared to right off the single greatest achievements mankind has ever made as a "conspiracy" and only you lot know the truth? You do have amazingly inflated egos.

How is that "clearly" CGI? I think that time lapse video that was posted was clearly CGI.

And I suppose that all of the video and photographic evidence of Earth from space before CGI was developed enough to generate realistic "fakes" was actually faked by NASA, who spent all their money pioneering CGI technology decades ahead of the rest of us, while also managing to keep every living soul involved quiet?
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 06, 2011, 03:41:53 AM
English Gentlemen, if you can't spot CGI, may I suggest you never go to the cinema, it will cause you to have a mental breakdown.

A.R.Wallace, what truth? That there is a libraries worth of photographic evidence to prove, conclusively, the shape of the Earth that you conveniently write off as a conspiracy? The truth, and being right, are one and same. We need no more evidence than you can find on the NASA website. You need to actually provide some.

Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: john_hand on May 06, 2011, 08:44:19 AM
As above. How did it form, how did the solar system form around it, what caused it to fly through space accelerating as it goes? What is it's purpose? RE has a complete and plausible formation theory within the heliocentric solar system, but what caused a 9000km deep disc to randomly form, have planetary bodies orbit it despite a lack of gravity, and how can a 32 mile diameter sun maintain it's heat for 13.7 billion years?

1. Few FE believers claim the earth is accelerating.
2. Dinosaurs.
3. Moonshrimp.
4. The earth is only 9000 years old. That is not nearly enough time to form a "sun".

nor is it nearly enough time to fossilize dinosaur remains, or form oil & coal. how long ago where dinosaurs around, I thought it was billions of years ago!!

and what are moonshrimp, I thought the moon was a dead rock?
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on May 06, 2011, 11:59:38 AM
English Gentlemen, if you can't spot CGI, may I suggest you never go to the cinema, it will cause you to have a mental breakdown.

Really? Because this looks real.

Damn real.

(http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/5/50/Naboo.jpg)

The point is, Hollywood has been capable of making realistic looking fakes even before CGI. Just because it looks real, does not mean that it is.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: c47man on May 06, 2011, 12:59:48 PM
English Gentlemen, if you can't spot CGI, may I suggest you never go to the cinema, it will cause you to have a mental breakdown.

Really? Because this looks real.

Damn real.

(http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/5/50/Naboo.jpg)

The point is, Hollywood has been capable of making realistic looking fakes even before CGI. Just because it looks real, does not mean that it is.

Hollywood was not capable of faking images of the Earth when NASA came back with the first images of the Earth. There is no getting around that fact.

How do you explain video and images from space showing recent disasters, such as volcanic ash in iceland, smoke in japan, smoke from the WTC collapse, etc. that were released very nearly after the events, much faster than a CGI team can build an effect like that (at least a CGI team small enough to make a conspiracy possible).

Why is it that NASA can employ quite possibly the smartest people in the country, and perhaps the world, and manage to fool them all into thinking the Earth is round using nothing but falsified images (which, we know, those super smart analysts spend hours examining in close detail and NEVER find evidence of falsification)?
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on May 06, 2011, 01:45:07 PM
Hollywood was not capable of faking images of the Earth when NASA came back with the first images of the Earth. There is no getting around that fact.

The ability to do this has been around for centuries. Tell me, what does this look like to you?

(http://www.amazingonly.com/Photos/Real/Realistic_Paintings_03.jpg)

It is a painting.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Ali on May 06, 2011, 02:06:46 PM
It also isn't moving.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: c47man on May 06, 2011, 02:31:56 PM
Hollywood was not capable of faking images of the Earth when NASA came back with the first images of the Earth. There is no getting around that fact.

The ability to do this has been around for centuries. Tell me, what does this look like to you?

(http://www.amazingonly.com/Photos/Real/Realistic_Paintings_03.jpg)

It is a painting.

photorealistic paintings did not exist until after the invention and widespread assimilation of photography and optical effect.

And now, the ability to generate imagery of the earth that was photorealistic did not exist when NASA first brought back images of Earth. Argue all you want, but I work in the film industry and know the history of CGI.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 06, 2011, 03:24:03 PM
Hollywood was not capable of faking images of the Earth when NASA came back with the first images of the Earth. There is no getting around that fact.

The ability to do this has been around for centuries. Tell me, what does this look like to you?

(http://www.amazingonly.com/Photos/Real/Realistic_Paintings_03.jpg)

It is a painting.

photorealistic paintings did not exist until after the invention and widespread assimilation of photography and optical effect.

And now, the ability to generate imagery of the earth that was photorealistic did not exist when NASA first brought back images of Earth. Argue all you want, but I work in the film industry and know the history of CGI.

Had you been an art student you would know that the Ancient Greeks were among the first to introduce hyper-realism in paintings. Hyper-realism has been around for a very long time.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Around And About on May 06, 2011, 03:30:48 PM
And personally, I can't wait for Tom to show us a photorealistic painting of earth from Ancient Greece more than 30(?) years ago!  :D
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: markjo on May 06, 2011, 05:49:47 PM
Had you been an art student you would know that the Ancient Greeks were among the first to introduce hyper-realism in paintings.

Citation, please.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: c47man on May 06, 2011, 06:11:32 PM
Hollywood was not capable of faking images of the Earth when NASA came back with the first images of the Earth. There is no getting around that fact.

The ability to do this has been around for centuries. Tell me, what does this look like to you?

(http://www.amazingonly.com/Photos/Real/Realistic_Paintings_03.jpg)

It is a painting.

photorealistic paintings did not exist until after the invention and widespread assimilation of photography and optical effect.

And now, the ability to generate imagery of the earth that was photorealistic did not exist when NASA first brought back images of Earth. Argue all you want, but I work in the film industry and know the history of CGI.

Had you been an art student you would know that the Ancient Greeks were among the first to introduce hyper-realism in paintings. Hyper-realism has been around for a very long time.

Photorealism implies that it looks like a real photo. Photohraphic effect (lens abberation, chromatic abberation, abnormal focal length perspective, specular crowning, dynamic range, etc.) were not documented and certainly not the topic of painting technique. Hyper realism is a relatively new style of painting, an advanced form of photorealism, and the term was coined in the 70s by a Belgian art dealer using the french word for Photorealism (Hyperréalisme). True hyperrealist paintings have only begun to branch off from photorealism since the turn of the millenia.

I have no clue where you got the idea that ancient Greeks were the first to make hyperrealist paintings.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: James on May 06, 2011, 06:41:59 PM
It is extremely likely that the Earth has always existed.  Earth historians who think they are going to discover the origin of the Earth are chasing after mere phantoms of the truth.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: c47man on May 06, 2011, 07:09:48 PM
It is extremely likely that the Earth has always existed.  Earth historians who think they are going to discover the origin of the Earth are chasing after mere phantoms of the truth.

Radio dating of several different forms has pegged the earth's age very reliably to ~4.54 billion years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Around And About on May 06, 2011, 08:29:56 PM
It is extremely likely that the Earth has always existed.  Earth historians who think they are going to discover the origin of the Earth are chasing after mere phantoms of the truth.

Hmm, that's strange. James, what do you make of this:

"XIII.

THE EARTH'S TRUE POSITION IN THE UNIVERSE; COMPARATIVELY RECENT FORMATION; PRESENT CHEMICAL CONDITION, AND APPROACHING DESTRUCTION BY FIRE"

???
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: JoshuaZ on May 06, 2011, 08:40:35 PM


Had you been an art student you would know that the Ancient Greeks were among the first to introduce hyper-realism in paintings. Hyper-realism has been around for a very long time.

Really? I thought that Greek paintings looked like:

[img=]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NAMA_Sacrifice_aux_Charites.jpg[/img]

and

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Symposiumnorthwall.jpg)

Both of those have some degree of degradation from time, but it seems pretty clear that they aren't anywhere near "hyper-realistic". And if you think they had such paintings why was the technique absolutely non-existent for 2000 years?

Edit: How does the image syntax work?
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: john_hand on May 07, 2011, 01:35:55 AM
As above. How did it form, how did the solar system form around it, what caused it to fly through space accelerating as it goes? What is it's purpose? RE has a complete and plausible formation theory within the heliocentric solar system, but what caused a 9000km deep disc to randomly form, have planetary bodies orbit it despite a lack of gravity, and how can a 32 mile diameter sun maintain it's heat for 13.7 billion years?

1. Few FE believers claim the earth is accelerating.
2. Dinosaurs.
3. Moonshrimp.
4. The earth is only 9000 years old. That is not nearly enough time to form a "sun".

nor is it nearly enough time to fossilize dinosaur remains, or form oil & coal. how long ago where dinosaurs around, I thought it was billions of years ago!!

and what are moonshrimp, I thought the moon was a dead rock?


Can someone please answer this and stop avoiding fundamental questions on the theory as I am losing faith rather rapidly, this trait is predominant on the forum, and if not ignored, everything is prefixed with ‘empirical’ as nif that adds credence to the frankly hard to accept theories put forward. So, please, just answer me..
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 07, 2011, 10:49:58 AM
Quote
Photorealism implies that it looks like a real photo. Photohraphic effect (lens abberation, chromatic abberation, abnormal focal length perspective, specular crowning, dynamic range, etc.) were not documented and certainly not the topic of painting technique. Hyper realism is a relatively new style of painting, an advanced form of photorealism, and the term was coined in the 70s by a Belgian art dealer using the french word for Photorealism (Hyperréalisme). True hyperrealist paintings have only begun to branch off from photorealism since the turn of the millenia.

I have no clue where you got the idea that ancient Greeks were the first to make hyperrealist paintings.

Well, the terms "hyperrealism" and "photorealism" wouldn't have been in common use during the time of the Ancient Greeks because the English Language wasn't even around.

But it is true that Greek artists strove to make their art as realistic as possible. Take a course on Art History sometime. The Greeks strove for realism in all art forms. Greek artists would challenge themselves to create art indistinguishable from reality. While most paintings have not survived due to the paint fading and chipping away, it is widely agreed that the Greeks strove to reflect reality. There are remarks from the era which proclaim fascination with the realism in art.

One just has to look at the statues. They took the time to create every little hair and fine detail of the human face. The reason they look white now is because the paint has faded and chipped away from thousands of years of degradation. When they were painted they would have looked exactly like a person. That was the goal; to make everything look as realistic as possible. The concept of realism was a fascination in Ancient Greece.

The most famous of the Greek artists were all realists.

http://www.csub.edu/~mault/laocoon.jpg
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Around And About on May 07, 2011, 11:51:25 AM
Tom: http://m.io9.com/5616498/ultraviolet-light-reveals-how-ancient-greek-statues-really-looked

Realismlulz...anyway, that's all irrelevant.


Does anybody care to address this?

Rowbotham: "COMPARATIVELY RECENT FORMATION"
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Tom Bishop on May 07, 2011, 12:37:20 PM
Tom: http://m.io9.com/5616498/ultraviolet-light-reveals-how-ancient-greek-statues-really-looked

Realismlulz...anyway, that's all irrelevant.

The only thing those ultraviolet readings tell us of the statues is that they were once brightly painted. No big surprise there. The clothing on the statues consisted of bright and vibrant reds, yellows, and blues, as was the style in those times.

What, did you think that Roman and Greek emperors would be wearing mud colored clothing?

But brightly painted != tacky. Those examples in the link are not showing us how the statues actually looked, only a novice-photoshopper's interpretation they might have looked with bright colors. All we know from the few specs of paint which remains on the statues is that they were brightly colored, not the quality of the painting. The images in that link are interpretations of what the statues might have look like with bright colors.

Obviously the artistic skill of that person photo-shopping bright example colors onto the statues pales in comparison with the skill of the Ancient Greeks. The Greeks wouldn't have just splashed on solid colors like that. The Greeks would have put thousands of man hours into the painting to get things perfect, with multiple shades, multiple skin tones, down to the tiniest detail, just as they put thousands of man hours into creating the statues to be as realistic as possible.

Again, bright != tacky or simple.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: PizzaPlanet on May 07, 2011, 12:56:52 PM
Really? I thought that Greek paintings looked like:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/NAMA_Sacrifice_aux_Charites.jpg)
Really? I though that the alphabet looked like:
абвгдеёжзийклмнопрстуфхцчшщъыьэюя

Before you get confused, here's an explanation: The Cyrillic alphabet being an alphabet doesn't make it the only alphabet in the world.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Lord Wilmore on June 02, 2011, 01:42:41 PM
photorealistic paintings did not exist until after the invention and widespread assimilation of photography and optical effect.


Sorry for the bump, but I just had to correct this, because it hurts me to see it unrefuted:


(http://pwlawrence.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/waterhouse_1024-769.jpg)


(http://arttattler.com/Images/Europe/England/London/Royal%20Academy%20of%20Arts/J.W.%20Waterhouse/St.-Cecilia.jpg)


(http://attachments.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1085377&stc=1&d=1287524388)


(http://allart.biz/up/photos/album/W-X-Y-Z/John%20William%20Waterhouse/john_william_waterhouse_16_saint_eulalia.jpg)
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Mrs. Peach on June 02, 2011, 01:49:04 PM
Good for you.  The camera obscura dates from about the tenth century.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Lord Wilmore on June 02, 2011, 01:58:53 PM
Good for you.  The camera obscura dates from about the tenth century.


If by 'photorealistic' he means comparable to today's photos, then my point stands. If by 'photorealistic' he means comparable to photography at any given point in time, then my point definitely stands.


Besides, the camera obscura was not photographical in nature, as it did not capture images. It was an optical device, and even in the 18th century their use did not come close to painting in terms of realism. It was not until the 20th century that photography became more realistic/accurate than paintings.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Mrs. Peach on June 02, 2011, 02:08:56 PM
Well, I just meant that it has been used by artists a long time as an optical projector whether onto a piece of paper or an entire wall.  As it was a aid to enhancing and boosting a talent, its use was often kept as a trade secret.  I didn't mean my 'good for you' as a contradiction, I meant it as 'good for you that you took the time to refute it.'
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Lord Wilmore on June 02, 2011, 02:11:09 PM
Ah, I thought you were suggesting that as the camera obscura had been around since the tenth century, it substantiated his point about photo-realistic paintings not existing until after the invention of photography. Sorry for the confusion!
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: markjo on June 02, 2011, 07:03:27 PM
photorealistic paintings did not exist until after the invention and widespread assimilation of photography and optical effect.

Sorry for the bump, but I just had to correct this, because it hurts me to see it unrefuted:

http://pwlawrence.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/waterhouse_1024-769.jpg

http://arttattler.com/Images/Europe/England/London/Royal%20Academy%20of%20Arts/J.W.%20Waterhouse/St.-Cecilia.jpg

http://attachments.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1085377&stc=1&d=1287524388

http://allart.biz/up/photos/album/W-X-Y-Z/John%20William%20Waterhouse/john_william_waterhouse_16_saint_eulalia.jpg

I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that these paintings could possibly be mistaken for anything but paintings? 
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Lord Wilmore on June 02, 2011, 07:14:45 PM
I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that these paintings could possibly be mistaken for anything but paintings? 


In the last decade or so, probably not, but at the time they were painted and for many decades afterwards they were far more 'realistic' than contemporary photographs, and for a significant period after that I would say they were at least on a par. I personally think that Waterhouse's The Lady of Shalott looks a lot more like a stylised photograph than it does a painting.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: markjo on June 02, 2011, 07:26:09 PM
I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that these paintings could possibly be mistaken for anything but paintings? 

In the last decade or so, probably not, but at the time they were painted and for many decades afterwards they were far more 'realistic' than contemporary photographs, and for a significant period after that I would say they were at least on a par. I personally think that Waterhouse's The Lady of Shalott looks a lot more like a stylised photograph than it does a painting.

Granted, that is a beautiful painting, but remember that it measures 153 cm ? 200 cm (60 in ? 79 in).  You would be surprised at how much different the full sized original looks compared to a rather smallish reproduction.
Title: Re: What is the origin of the flat Earth?
Post by: Lord Wilmore on June 03, 2011, 06:57:19 AM
I'm sorry, but are you suggesting that these paintings could possibly be mistaken for anything but paintings? 

In the last decade or so, probably not, but at the time they were painted and for many decades afterwards they were far more 'realistic' than contemporary photographs, and for a significant period after that I would say they were at least on a par. I personally think that Waterhouse's The Lady of Shalott looks a lot more like a stylised photograph than it does a painting.

Granted, that is a beautiful painting, but remember that it measures 153 cm ? 200 cm (60 in ? 79 in).  You would be surprised at how much different the full sized original looks compared to a rather smallish reproduction.


I know; although I haven't seen that particular painting in real life (unfortunately), I have seen many other pre-raphaelite paintings, and they tend to be rather large. However, when you stand back from them (as you should), they practically come to life. Moreover, they're still far more accurate and realistic than any photograph of equivalent size, at the time or for many years afterwards.