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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Trekky0623 on February 16, 2011, 10:17:11 AM

Title: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 16, 2011, 10:17:11 AM
If we have an omniscient being, then that being would presumably know about events past this point in time. Let us also assume that people that possess free will are inherently random.

This poses a problem. It is similar to the problem of having an inmoveable wall and an unstoppable object. The two simply cannot exist together. If people have free will and are random, then our being cannot know their actions, and is therefore not omniscient. If our being is omniscient, then our actions are predictable, meaning they are determined by solely outside forces and are not random. Therefore, we do not have free will.

Discuss.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 10:22:29 AM
If we have an omniscient being, then that being would presumably know about events past this point in time. Let us also assume that people that possess free will are inherently random.

This poses a problem. It is similar to the problem of having an inmoveable wall and an unstoppable object. The two simply cannot exist together. If people have free will and are random, then our being cannot know their actions, and is therefore not omniscient. If our being is omniscient, then our actions are predictable, meaning they are determined by solely outside forces and are not random. Therefore, we do not have free will.

Discuss.

I have a few questions. First, what do you mean by, "inherently random".

Next, how do you come to the conclusion that our actions are determined by solely outside forces and are not random, from a something being capable of predicting our actions. Something knowing what your actions will be does not mean that they are controlling your actions.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 10:35:50 AM
I have a few questions. First, what do you mean by, "inherently random".
Completely unpredictable.

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Next, how do you come to the conclusion that our actions are determined by solely outside forces and are not random, from a something being capable of predicting our actions. Something knowing what your actions will be does not mean that they are controlling your actions.
I don't think he is saying god is controlling our actions. Just that knowledge of our future choices doesn't mean we are really making them when we catch up to the future and those choices play out. If god is 100% certain that you will decide to rob a liquor store from before you are born, then how can you have freewill? It's a classic dilemma of mutually exclusive religious propositions.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 16, 2011, 10:40:30 AM
I am defining free will as the ability to make a random choice. As in, a person can perform an action that is unpredictable. Furthermore, if our actions are not random, then it would follow that knowing every detail about the past would allow you to predict future actions. Our actions don't have to be controlled, they just have to be predictable to negate free will.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 10:42:25 AM
I am defining free will as the ability to make a random choice. As in, a person can perform an action that is unpredictable. Furthermore, if our actions are not random, then it would follow that knowing every detail about the past would allow you to predict future actions. Our actions don't have to be controlled, they just have to be predictable to negate free will.

If an action is unpredictable, that means you would have no control over your mind or body, since you should be capable of knowing what you are about to do before you do it.

I would be the biggest issue with this argument, is that all the theist has to do is reject your definition of free-will, which they probably would, for it to be over.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 10:47:44 AM
I once had a dream that worked against freewill. It used the universality of reference frames. Observational reference frames are just coordinate perspectives that progress with relative direction in space and time. They are not unlike cameras that can move in any fashion. Just like there are infinite reference frames where time proceeds forward, there are infinite reference frames that move in the opposite direction.

Now consider that with such reference frames, objects would appear to play out in reverse. All the information about the future precedes information playing out in the past. If all that information already exists in those reference frames, freewill already appears to be impossible.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 10:51:23 AM
If an action is unpredictable, that means you would have no control over your mind or body, since you should be capable of knowing what you are about to do before you do it.
The argument is not focused on general predictability, but being predictable with 100% certainty. If I predicted that you will go eat something in the next few days, it would mean nothing. God is defined as omniscient which is perfectly strict.

You can know what you plan on doing, but god knows for sure what you will do. Plus he knows it infinitely far in advance (before you plan it).
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 16, 2011, 11:11:17 AM
If an action is unpredictable, that means you would have no control over your mind or body, since you should be capable of knowing what you are about to do before you do it.
The argument is not focused on general predictability, but being predictable with 100% certainty. If I predicted that you will go eat something in the next few days, it would mean nothing. God is defined as omniscient which is perfectly strict.

You can know what you plan on doing, but god knows for sure what you will do. Plus he knows it infinitely far in advance (before you plan it).

This, basically. Your actions can be predictable up to a point, but never with 100% predictability unless you are omniscient. Even our own actions are not predictable to ourselves 100%.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 16, 2011, 11:20:19 AM
A Lutherin friend of mine told me they do not believe in divine foreknowledge of God.  He is omniscient, but he only knows what it is physically possible to know, and the future is not.  In other words he know everything that happened, and is currently happening, but not what is going to happen.

I personally would not consider that to be omnicient, but I suppose that does resolve the ol free will vs. divine foreknoledge paradox.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 16, 2011, 11:27:00 AM
A Lutherin friend of mine told me they do not believe in divine foreknowledge of God.  He is omniscient, but he only knows what it is physically possible to know, and the future is not.  In other words he know everything that happened, and is currently happening, but not what is going to happen.

...So he's not omniscient? k thx.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Hazbollah on February 16, 2011, 11:28:12 AM
I think that we have free will, but only in our frame of reference. My philosophy is that this existence is predetermined. We think we choose freely, but we are acting in the scheme of something greater.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 16, 2011, 11:32:05 AM
I think that we have free will, but only in our frame of reference. My philosophy is that this existence is predetermined. We think we choose freely, but we are acting in the scheme of something greater.

Wouldn't that not be free will? If you are acting according to a plan, that would seem to contradict the very nature of free will.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 16, 2011, 12:33:55 PM
I think that we have free will, but only in our frame of reference. My philosophy is that this existence is predetermined. We think we choose freely, but we are acting in the scheme of something greater.

Wouldn't that not be free will? If you are acting according to a plan, that would seem to contradict the very nature of free will.

There is no inherent contradiction in compatibilism.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 12:44:41 PM
I think that we have free will, but only in our frame of reference. My philosophy is that this existence is predetermined. We think we choose freely, but we are acting in the scheme of something greater.

Wouldn't that not be free will? If you are acting according to a plan, that would seem to contradict the very nature of free will.

There is no inherent contradiction in compatibilism.

Sure there is. If everything is determined, then you don't actually have free-will, only the illusion of it.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 16, 2011, 12:49:00 PM
I think that we have free will, but only in our frame of reference. My philosophy is that this existence is predetermined. We think we choose freely, but we are acting in the scheme of something greater.

Wouldn't that not be free will? If you are acting according to a plan, that would seem to contradict the very nature of free will.

There is no inherent contradiction in compatibilism.

Tell me, if God knows I am going to eat corn flakes tomorrow morning, do I have the ability to choose to eat pancakes instead?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ski on February 16, 2011, 01:08:40 PM
If we have an omniscient being, then that being would presumably know about events past this point in time. Let us also assume that people that possess free will are inherently random.

This poses a problem. It is similar to the problem of having an inmoveable wall and an unstoppable object. The two simply cannot exist together. If people have free will and are random, then our being cannot know their actions, and is therefore not omniscient. If our being is omniscient, then our actions are predictable, meaning they are determined by solely outside forces and are not random. Therefore, we do not have free will.

Discuss.

I fall into the predeterminism camp.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Hazbollah on February 16, 2011, 01:11:07 PM
I think that we have free will, but only in our frame of reference. My philosophy is that this existence is predetermined. We think we choose freely, but we are acting in the scheme of something greater.

Wouldn't that not be free will? If you are acting according to a plan, that would seem to contradict the very nature of free will.
What I am saying is that it may appear to be free will, but I doubt that it is, in fact, free will.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 16, 2011, 01:23:28 PM
Tell me, if God knows I am going to eat corn flakes tomorrow morning, do I have the ability to choose to eat pancakes instead?

God's foreknowledge is irrelevant to your ability to choose. God does not make your choice.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 16, 2011, 01:29:17 PM
You will either always choose corn flakes all the time, or God doesn't know that you will eat corn flakes, and only guesses with a high degree of accuracy, which is not omnipotence. Knowledge entails that the thing is true. If it is not true, then it is not knowledge.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: optimisticcynic on February 16, 2011, 01:31:52 PM
quantum uncertainty says that even if you knew everything about a system you would not be able to predict what would happen. therefor being just because god new the past does not mean he would know the future.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 16, 2011, 01:40:33 PM
Tell me, if God knows I am going to eat corn flakes tomorrow morning, do I have the ability to choose to eat pancakes instead?

God's foreknowledge is irrelevant to your ability to choose. God does not make your choice.

You didn't answer the question.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 16, 2011, 01:49:58 PM
I'll bring up an argument that I have used before from John Locke.

Say a man is taken while unconcious to a room and the exit to the room is locked in such a way that it would be impossible for the man to escape.  When the man awakens, he finds himself in the company of a kick ass party.  As such, he chooses to remain in the room, and never even tries to escape.

Does the man remain in the room freely?  Locke says no, because it is only a matter of convenience that the man's preference was the choice that was available to him.

It may be a matter of convenience that I choose to eat cornflakes tomorrow, and that happens to be the only choice I can make, do I make it freely?  Did I have the ability to choose otherwise if that choice was already predestined?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 01:55:17 PM
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 01:57:21 PM
quantum uncertainty says that even if you knew everything about a system you would not be able to predict what would happen. therefor being just because god new the past does not mean he would know the future.
Quantum uncertainty doesn't apply to omniscience. I doubt god's alleged ability to know the future is dependent on mathematically deriving it.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 16, 2011, 02:01:02 PM
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.

It's not about God interfering with your decision, it's about your decision being pre destined that robs you of your freedom.  It basically makes you a puppet of fate from which you cannot escape.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 02:02:25 PM
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.
An inability to do something else is a lack of freewill. Doing something else would make god's knowledge incorrect.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 02:06:03 PM
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.

It's not about God interfering with your decision, it's about your decision being pre destined that robs you of your freedom.  It basically makes you a puppet of fate from which you cannot escape.

What do you mean pre-destined? You're going to complete a set of actions in your lifetime whether or not someone knows what those actions are. God knowing what you are going to do has no effect on your free-will as long as he doesn't make you do something different.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 02:07:51 PM
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.

It's not about God interfering with your decision, it's about your decision being pre destined that robs you of your freedom.  It basically makes you a puppet of fate from which you cannot escape.

What do you mean pre-destined? You're going to complete a set of actions in your lifetime whether or not someone knows what those actions are. God knowing what you are going to do has no affect on your free-will as long as he doesn't make you do something different.

But those specific actions are unavoidable if it is 100% certain they will happen. Is god is certain of everything you will do, those actions must be certain.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 16, 2011, 02:08:25 PM
Tell me, if God knows I am going to eat corn flakes tomorrow morning, do I have the ability to choose to eat pancakes instead?

God's foreknowledge is irrelevant to your ability to choose. God does not make your choice.

You didn't answer the question.

Yes I did.

Most of these posts seem to be placing temporal limitations on God. 'Past' and 'future' are human terms. From God's perspective, all moments are the Present. God knows what you will eat for breakfast 'tomorrow', because 'tomorrow' is as real as 'today'. In a manner of speaking, God can already see you eating your breakfast tomorrow. God can see you eating breakfast 30 years from now and everything between.

Locke's argument is also irrelevant. God cannot actively limit us just by 'knowing stuff'. God merely sees all temporal actions in eternity. How can this possibly have an effect on the actions themselves?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 02:11:54 PM
Tell me, if God knows I am going to eat corn flakes tomorrow morning, do I have the ability to choose to eat pancakes instead?

God's foreknowledge is irrelevant to your ability to choose. God does not make your choice.

You didn't answer the question.

Yes I did.
No, you didn't. It was a yes or no question. You only attempted to render the question moot.

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Most of these posts seem to be placing temporal limitations on God. 'Past' and 'future' are human terms. From God's perspective, all moments are the Present. God knows what you will eat for breakfast 'tomorrow', because 'tomorrow' is as real as 'today'. In a manner of speaking, God can already see you eating your breakfast tomorrow. God can see you eating breakfast 30 years from now and everything between.
You are discussing the way god might come to gain his knowledge, not what conditions must be met for such knowledge to be possible.

Quote
Locke's argument is also irrelevant. God cannot actively limit us just by 'knowing stuff'. God merely sees all temporal actions in eternity. How can this possibly have an effect on the actions themselves?
God is not playing an influential role. It is the fact that he can know something with certainty that has implications.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 16, 2011, 02:14:28 PM
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.

It's not about God interfering with your decision, it's about your decision being pre destined that robs you of your freedom.  It basically makes you a puppet of fate from which you cannot escape.

What do you mean pre-destined? You're going to complete a set of actions in your lifetime whether or not someone knows what those actions are. God knowing what you are going to do has no effect on your free-will as long as he doesn't make you do something different.

If it truly was a choice, it wouldn't be predictable. Because God knows what you will do, it will never happen any other way. So is that really choice?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 02:20:51 PM
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.

It's not about God interfering with your decision, it's about your decision being pre destined that robs you of your freedom.  It basically makes you a puppet of fate from which you cannot escape.

What do you mean pre-destined? You're going to complete a set of actions in your lifetime whether or not someone knows what those actions are. God knowing what you are going to do has no effect on your free-will as long as he doesn't make you do something different.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 02:21:52 PM
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.

It's not about God interfering with your decision, it's about your decision being pre destined that robs you of your freedom.  It basically makes you a puppet of fate from which you cannot escape.

What do you mean pre-destined? You're going to complete a set of actions in your lifetime whether or not someone knows what those actions are. God knowing what you are going to do has no effect on your free-will as long as he doesn't make you do something different.

If it truly was a choice, it wouldn't be predictable. Because God knows what you will do, it will never happen any other way. So is that really choice?

Why wouldn't it be a choice? God isn't making the choice for you.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 16, 2011, 02:28:54 PM
Does the man remain in the room freely?  Locke says no, because it is only a matter of convenience that the man's preference was the choice that was available to him.

The man had the choice to either stay in the room or attempt to leave. He exercised his free will to stay. No problem. Had he tried to leave, only then would his free will have been jeopardised.

No, you didn't. It was a yes or no question. You only attempted to render the question moot.

The question was moot so I gave the only answer I could. Likewise, this...

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

Let's say you put the cart before the horse and call it an argument. Will you convince anyone?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 02:33:46 PM
I'm noticing that my points are going unanswered...

The man had the choice to either stay in the room or attempt to leave. He exercised his free will to stay. No problem. Had he tried to leave, only then would his free will have been jeopardised.
The thought experiment is highlighting capability of choice which is why the decision isn't between 'staying or trying to leave'. It is a decision to stay or leave. If leaving is impossible it is not really a choice.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 02:34:15 PM
Let's say you put the cart before the horse and call it an argument. Will you convince anyone?

That does not answer my assertion at all. Tell me where the reasoning in invalid or which premise is false. Otherwise, admit that you are wrong.

I'm noticing that my points are going unanswered...

It seems to me with this post that fluffycornsnake is being intentional unreasonable, and thus should probably just be ignored.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 02:36:27 PM
Let's say you put the cart before the horse and call it an argument. Will you convince anyone?

That does not answer my assertion at all. Tell me where the reasoning in invalid or which premise is false. Otherwise, admit that you are wrong.

You're the one who's wrong. You have the ability to choose whichever cereal you want, god merely knows which one you are going to choose. He isn't interfering with your free will.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Beorn on February 16, 2011, 02:37:39 PM
Let's say you put the cart before the horse and call it an argument. Will you convince anyone?

That does not answer my assertion at all. Tell me where the reasoning in invalid or which premise is false. Otherwise, admit that you are wrong.

You're the one who's wrong. You have the ability to choose whichever cereal you want, god merely knows which one you are going to choose. He isn't interfering with your free will.

He knows it before you do it? How do you have a free choice then?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 02:38:38 PM
You have the ability to choose whichever cereal you want, god merely knows which one you are going to choose. He isn't interfering with your free will.

God is not playing an influential role. It is the fact that he can know something with certainty that has implications.
An inability to do something else is a lack of freewill. Doing something else would make god's knowledge incorrect.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 02:45:45 PM
What are these implications you're talking about?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 02:46:02 PM
Let's say you put the cart before the horse and call it an argument. Will you convince anyone?

That does not answer my assertion at all. Tell me where the reasoning in invalid or which premise is false. Otherwise, admit that you are wrong.

You're the one who's wrong. You have the ability to choose whichever cereal you want, god merely knows which one you are going to choose. He isn't interfering with your free will.

Please read.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Hazbollah on February 16, 2011, 02:48:22 PM
You have the ability to choose whichever cereal you want, god merely knows which one you are going to choose. He isn't interfering with your free will.

God is not playing an influential role. It is the fact that he can know something with certainty that has implications.
An inability to do something else is a lack of freewill. Doing something else would make god's knowledge incorrect.
You freely choose to eat Cheerios. God knows that you will make that choice because, God having no strict timeline, has seen you eat those Cheerio's. Free will remains intact. Simples.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Beorn on February 16, 2011, 02:48:53 PM
Where does this "God has no timeline" come from anyway?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 02:50:17 PM
I think you'd make a much better argument with the problem of evil. This one really just falls flat.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Hazbollah on February 16, 2011, 02:50:30 PM
Where does this "God has no timeline" come from anyway?
He's God. He can do WTF He wants.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 02:53:27 PM
Please read.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

No1 has addressed this yet, I am assuming because they can't.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 02:56:24 PM
Posting your argument over and over isn't going to make it more valid. Anyway, it seems like we both agree on this.

Something knowing what your actions will be does not mean that they are controlling your actions.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Hazbollah on February 16, 2011, 02:56:58 PM
Please read.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

No1 has addressed this yet, I am assuming because they can't.
With God, you may have already eaten the cornflakes.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 16, 2011, 02:58:26 PM
I'm noticing that my points are going unanswered...

I had nothing new to contribute to your other points, but if it makes you feel neglected...

Quote
Most of these posts seem to be placing temporal limitations on God. 'Past' and 'future' are human terms. From God's perspective, all moments are the Present. God knows what you will eat for breakfast 'tomorrow', because 'tomorrow' is as real as 'today'. In a manner of speaking, God can already see you eating your breakfast tomorrow. God can see you eating breakfast 30 years from now and everything between.
You are discussing the way god might come to gain his knowledge, not what conditions must be met for such knowledge to be possible.

Yes. Are you asking me to provide reasons why God is omniscient?

Quote
Locke's argument is also irrelevant. God cannot actively limit us just by 'knowing stuff'. God merely sees all temporal actions in eternity. How can this possibly have an effect on the actions themselves?
God is not playing an influential role. It is the fact that he can know something with certainty that has implications.

But these implications are nothing more than semantic, as I have tried to say.

The man had the choice to either stay in the room or attempt to leave. He exercised his free will to stay. No problem. Had he tried to leave, only then would his free will have been jeopardised.
The thought experiment is highlighting capability of choice which is why the decision isn't between 'staying or trying to leave'. It is a decision to stay or leave. If leaving is impossible it is not really a choice.

It is a choice, because he chooses to stay! I cannot make this any clearer.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 03:00:22 PM
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 03:03:02 PM
Posting your argument over and over isn't going to make it more valid.

When did I suggest this? Ignoring arguments however, makes your side look even less valid.

Please read.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

No1 has addressed this yet, I am assuming because they can't.
With God, you may have already eaten the cornflakes.

Obviously. He is omniscient. But because he perceives that I ate the cornflakes, that means that I could not have eaten anything else. God perceived me eating them before I even thought about them, which means that it was already known I would eat them before I did.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 03:04:05 PM
You freely choose to eat Cheerios. God knows that you will make that choice because, God having no strict timeline, has seen you eat those Cheerio's. Free will remains intact. Simples.
Didn't you concede to an altered definition of freewill already? The admission of seeing our fate because he is not constrained in time, is still an admission of fate.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 03:04:58 PM
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Beorn on February 16, 2011, 03:05:42 PM
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

So it's known before you do it?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 03:09:41 PM
You are discussing the way god might come to gain his knowledge, not what conditions must be met for such knowledge to be possible.
Yes. Are you asking me to provide reasons why God is omniscient?
No, I am asking for acknowledgment that to hold knowledge of a certain future, a certain future must exist.

Quote
Locke's argument is also irrelevant. God cannot actively limit us just by 'knowing stuff'. God merely sees all temporal actions in eternity. How can this possibly have an effect on the actions themselves?
God is not playing an influential role. It is the fact that he can know something with certainty that has implications.
But these implications are nothing more than semantic, as I have tried to say.
I think you misunderstood the implications I was referring to, which is probably my fault for not attaching them again to that post. I just outlined them above.

Quote
The man had the choice to either stay in the room or attempt to leave. He exercised his free will to stay. No problem. Had he tried to leave, only then would his free will have been jeopardised.
The thought experiment is highlighting capability of choice which is why the decision isn't between 'staying or trying to leave'. It is a decision to stay or leave. If leaving is impossible it is not really a choice.

It is a choice, because he chooses to stay! I cannot make this any clearer.

So you contend that it is a choice to not violate the laws of physics?  ???
You consider it a choice to not grow wings and fly?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 03:10:42 PM
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

Stating your premise over and over doesn't make your conclusion anymore valid.

If he knows with complete certainty what you will do, than that means you can not choose to do anything but what he says you will, which means that you have no free will.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 16, 2011, 03:12:53 PM
Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.

God knows you will choose cornflakes because your future self has chosen cornflakes. You are basing the choice on his knowledge, but in fact his knowledge is based on the choice. Cart, horse; horse, cart.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 03:13:53 PM
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

Stating your premise over and over doesn't make your conclusion anymore valid.

If he knows with complete certainty what you will do, than that means you can not choose to do anything but what he says you will, which means that you have no free will.

He isn't telling you to do anything, he's merely observing your actions. If he told you what to do in the first place, you wouldn't have free will whether he knew what you were going to do or not.

but in fact his knowledge is based on the choice.

Exactly
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Beorn on February 16, 2011, 03:14:39 PM
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

Stating your premise over and over doesn't make your conclusion anymore valid.

If he knows with complete certainty what you will do, than that means you can not choose to do anything but what he says you will, which means that you have no free will.

He isn't telling you to do anything, he's merely observing your actions. If he told you what to do in the first place, you wouldn't have free will whether he knew what you were going to do or not.

But does he know what you're going to do before you do it?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 03:16:27 PM
What are these implications you're talking about?
If something can be known with certainty, that certainty is an inevitable truth. To be sure of something is to acknowledge that nothing else can happen instead. If something else couldn't happen, god couldn't be sure.

An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.

Stating your premise over and over doesn't make your conclusion anymore valid.

If he knows with complete certainty what you will do, than that means you can not choose to do anything but what he says you will, which means that you have no free will.

He isn't telling you to do anything, he's merely observing your actions. If he told you what to do in the first place, you wouldn't have free will whether he knew what you were going to do or not.

The mere knowing what you do means you can't do anything else.

If I knew with absolute certainty that at a certain time and date you were do eat cornflakes, that would mean when that time comes around you would have to be eating the cornflakes.

If you were to do otherwise, that means I was wrong. But I can't be wrong because I had absolute certainty, which means that you couldn't possibly do otherwise.

Which means you did not have free-will in the matter.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 03:16:45 PM
An omnipotent god would know with complete certainty what you are going to do in your life. This knowledge isn't in any way go to affect your actions.
Again, I never said it would. The fact that he can know what you will do with complete certainty, relies on the premise that there is a absolute future. An absolute future is the definition of fate.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 03:18:57 PM
So if we remove god from the equation, you are still going to do the same actions. Whether or not god exists to know your fate is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 03:21:01 PM
So if we remove god from the equation, you are still going to do the same actions. Whether or not god exists to know your fate is irrelevant.
Yes.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 16, 2011, 03:22:56 PM
You are discussing the way god might come to gain his knowledge, not what conditions must be met for such knowledge to be possible.
Yes. Are you asking me to provide reasons why God is omniscient?
No, I am asking for acknowledgment that to hold knowledge of a certain future, a certain future must exist.

Yes, I acknowledge this, but I deny that it automatically invalidates free will.

The man had the choice to either stay in the room or attempt to leave. He exercised his free will to stay. No problem. Had he tried to leave, only then would his free will have been jeopardised.
The thought experiment is highlighting capability of choice which is why the decision isn't between 'staying or trying to leave'. It is a decision to stay or leave. If leaving is impossible it is not really a choice.

It is a choice, because he chooses to stay! I cannot make this any clearer.

So you contend that it is a choice not to violate the laws of physics?  ???

Not a fair analogy. The other scenario is logically possible, this isn't.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 03:24:36 PM
So if we remove god from the equation, you are still going to do the same actions. Whether or not god exists to know your fate is irrelevant.

How do you know this? It is now possible for me to make either choice. I am no longer forced to choose just one.

Whether or not I am choosing the cornflakes even when not forced to is irrelevant.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 03:25:18 PM
So if we remove god from the equation, you are still going to do the same actions. Whether or not god exists to know your fate is irrelevant.

How do you know this? It is now possible for me to make either choice. I am no longer forced to choose just one.

Whether or not I am choosing the cornflakes even when not forced to is irrelevant.

God wasn't forcing you to make a choice.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 03:25:29 PM
So if we remove god from the equation, you are still going to do the same actions. Whether or not god exists to know your fate is irrelevant.

How do you know this? It is now possible for me to make either choice. I am no longer forced to choose just one.

Whether or not I am choosing the cornflakes even when not forced to is irrelevant.

God wasn't forcing you to make a choice.

The existence of God's omniscience did though. Once again, the fact that he knew what I would do meant that I could not have done otherwise, which means I had no free-will.

Not a fair analogy. The other scenario is logically possible, this isn't.

Do explain.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: optimisticcynic on February 16, 2011, 03:26:32 PM
quantum uncertainty says that even if you knew everything about a system you would not be able to predict what would happen. therefor being just because god new the past does not mean he would know the future.
Quantum uncertainty doesn't apply to omniscience. I doubt god's alleged ability to know the future is dependent on mathematically deriving it.
the argument is if you know everything about the universe now that does not mean that you know the future. I am demonstrating that omniscience does not mean future knowledge.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 03:26:50 PM
No, I am asking for acknowledgment that to hold knowledge of a certain future, a certain future must exist.
Yes, I acknowledge this, but I deny that it automatically invalidates free will.
So you believe your adaptation of freewill to be compatible with fate?  ???

The man had the choice to either stay in the room or attempt to leave. He exercised his free will to stay. No problem. Had he tried to leave, only then would his free will have been jeopardised.
The thought experiment is highlighting capability of choice which is why the decision isn't between 'staying or trying to leave'. It is a decision to stay or leave. If leaving is impossible it is not really a choice.

It is a choice, because he chooses to stay! I cannot make this any clearer.

So you contend that it is a choice not to violate the laws of physics?  ???

Not a fair analogy. The other scenario is logically possible, this isn't.
Um, no. It was impossible to leave the room.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Ocius on February 16, 2011, 03:27:09 PM
So if we remove god from the equation, you are still going to do the same actions. Whether or not god exists to know your fate is irrelevant.

How do you know this? It is now possible for me to make either choice. I am no longer forced to choose just one.

Whether or not I am choosing the cornflakes even when not forced to is irrelevant.

God wasn't forcing you to make a choice.

The existence of God's omniscience did though.


Do explain.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 03:31:51 PM
the argument is if you know everything about the universe now that does not mean that you know the future. I am demonstrating that omniscience does not mean future knowledge.
Omniscience by definition, implies knowledge of the future. I think you are restricting his knowledge to one frame of time and relying on his infinite intelligence. I believe the common contention here is that god directly witnesses the future.

Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 03:36:32 PM
So if we remove god from the equation, you are still going to do the same actions. Whether or not god exists to know your fate is irrelevant.

How do you know this? It is now possible for me to make either choice. I am no longer forced to choose just one.

Whether or not I am choosing the cornflakes even when not forced to is irrelevant.

God wasn't forcing you to make a choice.

The existence of God's omniscience did though.


Do explain.

I have as well as Singy in almost every post in here. I am going to assume that you are nothing but a troll now.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 16, 2011, 03:40:39 PM
So your adaptation of freewill is compatible with fate?  ???
Yes.

So you contend that it is a choice not to violate the laws of physics?  ???
Not a fair analogy. The other scenario is logically possible, this isn't.
Um, no. It was impossible to leave the room.

Leaving the room is only physically impossible. It is not beyond the realm of logical possibility.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 03:54:03 PM
So you believe your adaptation of freewill to be compatible with fate?  ???
Yes.

If you are fated to do something, how is that freedom?
And, if an inescapable future is not the opposite of freewill, what is?

So you contend that it is a choice not to violate the laws of physics?  ???
Not a fair analogy. The other scenario is logically possible, this isn't.
Um, no. It was impossible to leave the room.

Leaving the room is only physically impossible. It is not beyond the realm of logical possibility.
Physical impossibilities are logically impossible. It is already bound by logic. The difference is that the laws of physics are just more logically fundamental, as opposed to case specific examples.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: optimisticcynic on February 16, 2011, 04:11:33 PM
the argument is if you know everything about the universe now that does not mean that you know the future. I am demonstrating that omniscience does not mean future knowledge.
Omniscience by definition, implies knowledge of the future. I think you are restricting his knowledge to one frame of time and relying on his infinite intelligence. I believe the common contention here is that god directly witnesses the future.


total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.
therefore if you have something that can't be known, such as the future according to quantum there is no problem. at least with that definition of omniscience.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 16, 2011, 04:16:40 PM
So you believe your adaptation of freewill to be compatible with fate?  ???
Yes.

If you are fated to do something, how is that freedom?
And, if an inescapable future is not the opposite of freewill, what is?

The opposite of free will is lack of choice, but fate does not preclude choice. Fate is made up of choices.

So you contend that it is a choice not to violate the laws of physics?  ???
Not a fair analogy. The other scenario is logically possible, this isn't.
Um, no. It was impossible to leave the room.

Leaving the room is only physically impossible. It is not beyond the realm of logical possibility.
Physical impossibilities are logically impossible. It is already bound by logic. The difference is that the laws of physics are just more logically fundamental, as opposed to case specific examples.

Leaving a locked room is conceivable. Breaking the laws of physics is not. Logic does not allow a gentle gradient of possibilities. Logic is a cliff edge of either/or scenarios.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 04:20:02 PM
Logic does not allow a gentle gradient of possibilities. Logic is a cliff edge of either/or scenarios.

Um, yes it does. That is the whole point of thought experiments and possible world.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Tom Bishop on February 16, 2011, 04:20:43 PM
Quote from: optimisticcynic
the argument is if you know everything about the universe now that does not mean that you know the future. I am demonstrating that omniscience does not mean future knowledge.
Omniscience by definition, implies knowledge of the future. I think you are restricting his knowledge to one frame of time and relying on his infinite intelligence. I believe the common contention here is that god directly witnesses the future.


total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.
therefore if you have something that can't be known, such as the future according to quantum there is no problem. at least with that definition of omniscience.

Omniscient doesn't necessarily mean "knowing the future." It means "having total knowledge."

Definition (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/omniscient): "Having total knowledge."

The technical singularity in science fiction may have total knowledge; but it does not imply that it can predict the lottery.

Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Areweonfiya on February 16, 2011, 04:27:04 PM
If we have an omniscient being, then that being would presumably know about events past this point in time. Let us also assume that people that possess free will are inherently random.

This poses a problem. It is similar to the problem of having an inmoveable wall and an unstoppable object. The two simply cannot exist together. If people have free will and are random, then our being cannot know their actions, and is therefore not omniscient. If our being is omniscient, then our actions are predictable, meaning they are determined by solely outside forces and are not random. Therefore, we do not have free will.

Discuss.

The unstoppable force would go around the unmovable object.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 16, 2011, 04:27:27 PM
Logic does not allow a gentle gradient of possibilities. Logic is a cliff edge of either/or scenarios.

Um, yes it does. That is the whole point of thought experiments and possible world.

The whole point of these is to ascertain what is logically possible and what is not. There is no middle ground.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 16, 2011, 04:30:40 PM
Logic does not allow a gentle gradient of possibilities. Logic is a cliff edge of either/or scenarios.

Um, yes it does. That is the whole point of thought experiments and possible world.

The whole point of these is to ascertain what is logically possible and what is not. There is no middle ground.

But as long as the scenarios are logically consistent, anything you want can happen in them. There being a room in which is impossible to escape from does not contradict this.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 04:40:41 PM
So you believe your adaptation of freewill to be compatible with fate?  ???
Yes.

If you are fated to do something, how is that freedom?
And, if an inescapable future is not the opposite of freewill, what is?

The opposite of free will is lack of choice, but fate does not preclude choice. Fate is made up of choices.

You skipped my first question and answered the second by negating the current definition.

"The opposite of potato is not potato."
This doesn't mean anything. However, it seems to be dependent on your first assertion, so I will let it go for now.

Leaving a locked room is conceivable. Breaking the laws of physics is not. Logic does not allow a gentle gradient of possibilities. Logic is a cliff edge of either/or scenarios.
Leaving a locked room only seems logically possible because it doesn't advertise all of the information. There are always emergent logical rules and properties based on certain circumstances. There are infinite possible behaviors for the man to follow, none of which open the door if you follow along with them. It's just convoluted enough to make us doubt those rules.

Here's a simplified example: The only way to open a treasure chest is with a key. The key is inside the chest and the chest is closed. Here, it becomes obvious that it is a logical impossibility to open the chest. This isn't a foundational law of physics or a prime principle of logic. It is an emergent logical rule.

...It is a physical impossibility for you to grow wings and fly. The reason why it is physically impossible is because doing so would violate physics.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: IOA on February 16, 2011, 08:08:43 PM
It makes a difference when you know what the omnipotent being has decided.

Also, Newcomb's Paradox may be of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb%27s_Paradox
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 16, 2011, 08:15:32 PM
It makes a difference when you know what the omnipotent being has decided.
Deciding might not be the best term...
But either way, I don't believe anyone is claiming to know the mind of god.  :)
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Supertails on February 17, 2011, 12:14:45 AM
I think this is a really thin argument. You could say that you have free will, but god still knows what choice you are going to make. I don't see how that would take away from your free will. He isn't interfering with your decision.

It's not about God interfering with your decision, it's about your decision being pre destined that robs you of your freedom.  It basically makes you a puppet of fate from which you cannot escape.

What do you mean pre-destined? You're going to complete a set of actions in your lifetime whether or not someone knows what those actions are. God knowing what you are going to do has no effect on your free-will as long as he doesn't make you do something different.

Lets say on day x God knows that when I have to make the choice between eating Cheerios and eating Cornflakes, I choose to eat cornflakes.

When that day comes along, I have to eat the cornflakes. If I don't, that means that God is not omniscient, becuase he did not know what I was going to do.

I did not have free-will in the matter because I had to eat the cornflakes, it could not have happened any other way.
You are actually going to eat the Raisin Bran.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: stume on February 17, 2011, 07:15:12 PM
Ok, while I actually agree with the argument that an omniscient being that knows the future cannot exist in a reality with free will, I just had a thought, what if it's not that this being knows what is going to happen, it just knows everything that possibly could happen
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 17, 2011, 07:19:09 PM
Ok, while I actually agree with the argument that an omniscient being that knows the future cannot exist in a reality with free will, I just had a thought, what if it's not that this being knows what is going to happen, it just knows everything that possibly could happen

If it does not know what I am going to eat for breakfast tomorrow, only my options, is that omniscience?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: stume on February 20, 2011, 06:07:54 AM
Ok, while I actually agree with the argument that an omniscient being that knows the future cannot exist in a reality with free will, I just had a thought, what if it's not that this being knows what is going to happen, it just knows everything that possibly could happen

If it does not know what I am going to eat for breakfast tomorrow, only my options, is that omniscience?

Ok, it took me about 10 attempts to try wording my thoughts, and the more I think about it, the less it makes sense to me, so I concede that my thought was a completely irrelevant waste of time, sorry. It was only a thought that appeared while reading the thread, then put it's self into a post with little approval from the rest of my being so I don't really care.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Weegee Board on February 20, 2011, 07:55:01 AM
ITT: Fortuna trolls everybody.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Tausami on February 20, 2011, 08:13:32 AM
 ??? I thought the whole point of God was that he makes no sense but you believe in him anyway for no apparent reason?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 20, 2011, 08:36:49 AM
??? I thought the whole point of God was that he makes no sense but you believe in him anyway for no apparent reason?

That is why it is so hard to reason with religious people.  Their faith demands absolute belief in something even when evidence to the contrary is presented.

Take William Lane Craig, I seem to remember him being quoted as saying that even if he was to go back in a time machine to the day before the first Easter Sunday, right outside Jesus's tomb, and witness first hand that nobody came out of the tomb for the next few days, he would still believe in the resurrection.  I think a great amount of Christians still would.  Many fundamentalists see their ability to reject reason and evidence over their beliefs as a test of the strength of faith in God.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 20, 2011, 08:53:09 AM
Take William Lane Craig, I seem to remember him being quoted as saying that even if he was to go back in a time machine to the day before the first Easter Sunday, right outside Jesus's tomb, and witness first hand that nobody came out of the tomb for the next few days, he would still believe in the resurrection.

Wut. Why? Do you have a source?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 20, 2011, 10:33:58 AM
Take William Lane Craig, I seem to remember him being quoted as saying that even if he was to go back in a time machine to the day before the first Easter Sunday, right outside Jesus's tomb, and witness first hand that nobody came out of the tomb for the next few days, he would still believe in the resurrection.

Wut. Why? Do you have a source?

I cannot find it, sorry.  However did find this quote, which pretty much says the same thing:

Quote
Should a conflict arise between the witness of the Holy Spirit to the fundamental truth of the Christian faith and beliefs based on argument and evidence, then it is the former which must take precedence over the latter, not vice versa. [William Lane Craig, Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics, (Revised edition, Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 1994), p. 36.]
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 20, 2011, 11:05:51 AM
Ah ha!  Here is where I saw it.  Unfortunately it is not a direct quote.  Take it as you will, it's a page or two down from the link.

http://www.jcnot4me.com/Items/contra_craig/contra_craig.htm#Comments%20on%20Craig%27s%20Book:%20Reasonable%20Faith

Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 20, 2011, 11:46:13 AM
(http://www.trythought.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/churchsign_reason.jpg)
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Weegee Board on February 20, 2011, 12:04:01 PM
I wish CR90 would post in this thread.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: fluffycornsnake on February 20, 2011, 02:07:33 PM
Wow. As Christian apologists go, I was never hugely impressed with WLC, but he has effectively destroyed his credibility there. I'll bet he's a RE'er as well.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Tausami on February 20, 2011, 07:14:32 PM
Wow. As Christian apologists go, I was never hugely impressed with WLC, but he has effectively destroyed his credibility there. I'll bet he's a RE'er as well.

Probably. What a loser.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 20, 2011, 07:53:15 PM
According to the link, WLC has won more debates than he has lost.  But that is mainly because he is a very good at what he does.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Tausami on February 20, 2011, 08:33:15 PM
According to the link, WLC has won more debates than he has lost.  But that is mainly because he is a very good at what he does.

Winning a debate means that one is good at debating, not correct.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 20, 2011, 08:38:34 PM
According to the link, WLC has won more debates than he has lost.  But that is mainly because he is a very good at what he does.

Winning a debate means that one is good at debating, not correct.

It's really all about whether or not you convince your audience, and stump your opponent.  His arguments are crap, but if his opponent is not prepared to counter them properly it really does not matter.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Beorn on February 20, 2011, 11:13:47 PM
According to the link, WLC has won more debates than he has lost.  But that is mainly because he is a very good at what he does.

Winning a debate means that one is good at debating, not correct.

It's really all about whether or not you convince your audience, and stump your opponent.  His arguments are crap, but if his opponent is not prepared to counter them properly it really does not matter.

religious people have mayor headway in debates, as they don't have to explain anythin while the opponent has to explain everything from the forming of the universe to evolution to abiogenesis. Plus the religious person can just say "but that's what faith is" and because most people going to religious debates are also religious that will be a win in the debate
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 20, 2011, 11:40:23 PM
Ya, it is a fallacious technique to tell someone in a debate have to explain something like abiogenesis in its entirety because if they refuse, they come off as having a weak position, and if they accept and explain it all, they appear long winded.

It is like asking a loaded question.

"Have you stopped supporting necrophilia yet?
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Supertails on February 20, 2011, 11:53:32 PM
No, I haven't.  :(

Oh, wait, that wasn't...?  Oops.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: stume on February 21, 2011, 12:46:47 AM
Ya, it is a fallacious technique to tell someone in a debate have to explain something like abiogenesis in its entirety because if they refuse, they come off as having a weak position, and if they accept and explain it all, they appear long winded.

It is like asking a loaded question.

"Have you stopped supporting necrophilia yet?

my teacher's example when I was learning about fallacies was "have you stopped beating your wife?"
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 21, 2011, 06:19:30 AM
Ya, it is a fallacious technique to tell someone in a debate have to explain something like abiogenesis in its entirety because if they refuse, they come off as having a weak position, and if they accept and explain it all, they appear long winded.

It is like asking a loaded question.

"Have you stopped supporting necrophilia yet?

my teacher's example when I was learning about fallacies was "have you stopped beating your wife?"

Riveting.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Weegee Board on February 21, 2011, 09:24:56 AM
Ya, it is a fallacious technique to tell someone in a debate have to explain something like abiogenesis in its entirety because if they refuse, they come off as having a weak position, and if they accept and explain it all, they appear long winded.

It is like asking a loaded question.

"Have you stopped supporting necrophilia yet?

my teacher's example when I was learning about fallacies was "have you stopped beating your wife?"

Riveting.

That's the one most people use.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 21, 2011, 10:35:32 AM
Ya, it is a fallacious technique to tell someone in a debate have to explain something like abiogenesis in its entirety because if they refuse, they come off as having a weak position, and if they accept and explain it all, they appear long winded.

It is like asking a loaded question.

"Have you stopped supporting necrophilia yet?

my teacher's example when I was learning about fallacies was "have you stopped beating your wife?"

Riveting.

That's the one most people use.

Really? I have yet to hear someone say that in a debate.
Title: Re: Can an omniscient being exist with a universe that has free will?
Post by: Weegee Board on February 21, 2011, 10:56:50 AM
Ya, it is a fallacious technique to tell someone in a debate have to explain something like abiogenesis in its entirety because if they refuse, they come off as having a weak position, and if they accept and explain it all, they appear long winded.

It is like asking a loaded question.

"Have you stopped supporting necrophilia yet?

my teacher's example when I was learning about fallacies was "have you stopped beating your wife?"

Riveting.

That's the one most people use.

Really? I have yet to hear someone say that in a debate.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic.