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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Marcus Aurelius on January 19, 2011, 08:18:24 PM

Title: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on January 19, 2011, 08:18:24 PM
When the U.S. was founded, it was by far the most secular nation in history, promoting not only freedom of religion, but freedom from religion.  Modern America however, is one of the most Christian nations of all the 1st world countries, if not the most.

Case and point, the Treaty of Tripoli, which was sent to Congress and read in it's entirety out loud, then immediately approve unanimously, contained this language in Article 11:

Quote
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Can anybody imagine our congress now approving unanimously any treaty that contained such language?  Nor our main stream media condoning such language?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Mykael on January 19, 2011, 10:13:14 PM
This is common knowledge.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Chris Spaghetti on January 20, 2011, 01:05:13 AM
Unfortunately, countries change. I have a feeling that the USA or whatever supercedes the USA will be looked at in the future in much the same lament as ancient Greece, once a bastion of intellectual freedom, now a run-of-the-mill Southern European province with crippling financial problems.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Pongo on January 20, 2011, 01:12:39 AM
No, they told me on Fox News over and over again that we were founded as a Christian nation.  Do you dare say that the uneducated blond anchorwomen on Fox News are wrong?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 20, 2011, 05:24:26 AM


Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Supertails on January 20, 2011, 07:02:36 AM
God yes.  As soon as I saw the title of this thread I was all "Treaty of Tripoli quoting time".
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on January 20, 2011, 07:58:39 AM
This is common knowledge.

Unfortunately it is not in certain parts of America.  Where they are trying to change history itself in the most Orwellian way.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Wendy on January 20, 2011, 08:39:22 AM
YOU TALKIN SMACK ABOUT TEXAS SON?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Space Cowgirl on January 20, 2011, 09:24:49 AM
This is common knowledge.

Unfortunately it is not in certain parts of America.  Where they are trying to change history itself in the most Orwellian way.

Yeah, I wish it was common knowledge. 
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on January 24, 2011, 04:20:27 PM
No Wardogg?  No CR90?  how boring.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 24, 2011, 04:45:45 PM
We all agree!

...

(http://post.cloudfront.goodinc.com/EmbeddedImage/1486/org_1032.jpg)
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on January 24, 2011, 04:47:02 PM
We all agree!

...

(http://post.cloudfront.goodinc.com/EmbeddedImage/1486/org_1032.jpg)

Foolish humans!  Your logic is flawed!
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 24, 2011, 10:10:42 PM
Good thing it didnt last long.  For 5 whole years we were not a Christian Nation.

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Treaty:of:Tripoli.htm

Quote
The Treaty was broken in 1801 by the pasha of Tripoli and renegotiated in 1805 after the First Barbary War, at which time Article 11 was removed.

Its been fun biting on your troll bait folks.  Have fun in here.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 24, 2011, 10:22:30 PM
Good thing it didnt last long.  For 5 whole years we were not a Christian Nation.

http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Treaty:of:Tripoli.htm

Quote
The Treaty was broken in 1801 by the pasha of Tripoli and renegotiated in 1805 after the First Barbary War, at which time Article 11 was removed.

Its been fun biting on your troll bait folks.  Have fun in here.

Quote
The treaty was broken in 1801 by the Pasha of Tripoli over President Thomas Jefferson's refusal to pay the Pasha's demands for increased payments.

So let me get this straight:

The treaty was signed unanimously.
Article 11 was printed in several newspapers without public outcry of any sort.
Five years later, the treaty was broken by THE PASHA OF TRIPOLI.
Therefore, the United States is a Christian Nation.

Not to mention:

Quote
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So really, no, we're not a Christian nation, and the unanimously signed Treaty of Tripoli further establishes that.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on January 25, 2011, 05:34:37 AM
The point Wardogg, is that we were not founded a Christian nation, unlike what many today would have you believe.  Can you imagine any legislation containing that language today being passed unanimously?

Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 25, 2011, 06:54:55 AM
The point Wardogg, is that we were not founded a Christian nation, unlike what many today would have you believe. 

Really?  Thats the point?  Well you use this treaty as your "evidence" which is interesting. 

Perhaps you have heard of the Treaty of Paris ratified in 1782, which began "In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity"?  Those pesky religious politicians....always sneaky stuff in the first line instead of buried in the 11th article.

Quote
Can you imagine any legislation containing that language today being passed unanimously?
  Nope.

Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on January 25, 2011, 07:28:17 AM
The point Wardogg, is that we were not founded a Christian nation, unlike what many today would have you believe. 

Really?  Thats the point?  Well you use this treaty as your "evidence" which is interesting. 

Perhaps you have heard of the Treaty of Paris ratified in 1782, which began "In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity"?  Those pesky religious politicians....always sneaky stuff in the first line instead of buried in the 11th article.

I love it how you quote evidence, as if I said that word.  I don't believe I did.  The treaty was an example of the U.S. government acknoledging that we were not founded on Christianity, as many today claim otherwise.  The best example of this is the U.S. Constitution.  Oh and the Treaty of Paris (1782) was ratified by the Congress of Confederation, not the U.S. Congress, which didn't exist yet.


Quote
Can you imagine any legislation containing that language today being passed unanimously?
  Nope.



So you agree then, we were not founded a christian nation, but now we are arguably the most christian of all 1st world nations.  Can you please tell Sarah Palin to stop claiming otherwise on Fox News?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Mykael on January 25, 2011, 07:51:13 AM
"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity"
1+1+1=1

Math is the antiChrist
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Beorn on January 25, 2011, 09:14:17 AM
So you agree then, we were not founded a christian nation, but now we are arguably the most christian of all 1st world nations.  Can you please tell Sarah Palin to stop claiming otherwise on Fox News?

The truth on fox news? naahhhh
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Chris Spaghetti on January 25, 2011, 09:32:03 AM
"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity"
1+1+1=1

Math is the antiChrist

well, 3/1/1/1=3 works...
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Mykael on January 25, 2011, 09:36:11 AM
"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity"
1+1+1=1

Math is the antiChrist

well, 3/1/1/1=3 works...
Yes, but it doesn't make any sense in context.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 25, 2011, 10:27:09 AM
So you agree then,

Nope.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 25, 2011, 10:39:11 AM
So you agree then,

Nope.

Do you have any reason to say that the United States was founded on Christian principles?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 25, 2011, 10:40:21 AM
Are we ignoring my example?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on January 25, 2011, 10:43:08 AM
Are you ignoring that it was not ratified by congress?  Our current form of government did not exist when that was ratified.

Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 25, 2011, 10:44:46 AM
There's a difference between using "in the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity" as an equivalent of "Swear to God?" and actually stating that the United States is not a Christian nation. None of the articles in the Treaty of Paris had anything to do with religion like Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli did. That is the only time it is mentioned and is used in the same way that an oath in court is used.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 25, 2011, 10:49:58 AM
Are you ignoring that it was not ratified by congress?  Our current form of government did not exist when that was ratified.

No you are right....just the same people under a different name.

There's a difference between using "in the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity" as an equivalent of "Swear to God?" and actually stating that the United States is not a Christian nation. None of the articles in the Treaty of Paris had anything to do with religion like Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli did. That is the only time it is mentioned and is used in the same way that an oath in court is used.

So your interpretation is....We swear to God.  Well thanks...this conversation is now over. Saved me alot of trouble.


Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 25, 2011, 10:56:19 AM
Are you ignoring that it was not ratified by congress?  Our current form of government did not exist when that was ratified.

No you are right....just the same people under a different name.

Signatories:

John Adams
John Jay
Benjamin Franklin
David Hartley

Damn. That's all of the not yet created Congress. You're right. ::)


There's a difference between using "in the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity" as an equivalent of "Swear to God?" and actually stating that the United States is not a Christian nation. None of the articles in the Treaty of Paris had anything to do with religion like Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli did. That is the only time it is mentioned and is used in the same way that an oath in court is used.

So your interpretation is....We swear to God.  Well thanks...this conversation is now over. Saved me alot of trouble.

And what is your interpretation of this?

Quote
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on January 25, 2011, 11:08:17 AM
Are you ignoring that it was not ratified by congress?  Our current form of government did not exist when that was ratified.

No you are right....just the same people under a different name.

Right, because the U.S. Constitution was the same as the Articles of Confederation, just renamed.  The people involved are irrelevant, we are a nation of laws.  But if you want to go there, I can provide some insight on the intentions of our founders on the subject of our religious founding.  Though I should not need to, since the Constitution says it all.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Wendy on January 25, 2011, 11:28:06 AM
"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity"
1+1+1=1

Math is the antiChrist

A friend of mine's dad actually had that equation as a visual aid to his speech at said friend's wedding. Said friend and her now husband had a child, and he also referenced the holy trinity, ergo 1+1+1=1. It was quite cute, actually.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: General Disarray on January 25, 2011, 11:50:31 AM
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=4943.msg1055936#msg1055936) proves definitively that 1+1=1, so by extension, 1+1+1=1.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Beorn on January 25, 2011, 12:04:32 PM
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=4943.msg1055936#msg1055936) proves definitively that 1+1=1, so by extension, 1+1+1=1.

I don't sadly believe he wrote that down with a straight face
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 25, 2011, 12:13:02 PM
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=4943.msg1055936#msg1055936) proves definitively that 1+1=1, so by extension, 1+1+1=1.

1 Raindrop + 1 Raindrop = 1 Raindrop
—Narcberry
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on January 25, 2011, 03:55:18 PM
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=4943.msg1055936#msg1055936) proves definitively that 1+1=1, so by extension, 1+1+1=1.

1 Raindrop + 1 Raindrop = 1 Raindrop
?Narcberry

Ahh, I remember that one.  That's worse than trying to convince REG that you can't linearly scale power output by powerplant volume.

Anyway:
For a country to be a "Insert religoin" Nation, doesn't it have to have it's chosen church part of the government directly? 
Norway, for example, is a Christian Nation simply because the Church is directly involved in the government.
England is a Christian Nation because the church is directly involved in the government.
Iran is a Muslim nation because their religious order controls the government.
China is not a Religious nation because they took great pains to stamp out religion once it became communist.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 25, 2011, 03:57:09 PM
America is the Antichrist.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Thevoiceofreason on January 25, 2011, 04:38:42 PM
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=4943.msg1055936#msg1055936) proves definitively that 1+1=1, so by extension, 1+1+1=1.
God, that's just copy pasta of how the fact that two raindrops make one raindrop, invalidates the entirety of applied math and physics and therefore all globular science

And this nation was at least founded upon a Judeo-christian god.
See the dollar bill for evidence of who were supposed to trust in. And the pledge
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on January 25, 2011, 04:52:29 PM
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=4943.msg1055936#msg1055936) proves definitively that 1+1=1, so by extension, 1+1+1=1.
God, that's just copy pasta of how the fact that two raindrops make one raindrop, invalidates the entirety of applied math and physics and therefore all globular science

And this nation was at least founded upon a Judeo-christian god.
See the dollar bill for evidence of who were supposed to trust in. And the pledge
The pledge had "Under God" added in the 1950s.

Quote
Bellamy's original Pledge read as follows:[6]

    I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be recited in 15 seconds. As a socialist, he had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity[5] but decided against it - knowing that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

As for the Dollar bill...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

So yeah, neither of your points works since both were put into place at least 80 years AFTER the formation of the country.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Thevoiceofreason on January 25, 2011, 05:04:37 PM
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=4943.msg1055936#msg1055936) proves definitively that 1+1=1, so by extension, 1+1+1=1.
God, that's just copy pasta of how the fact that two raindrops make one raindrop, invalidates the entirety of applied math and physics and therefore all globular science

And this nation was at least founded upon a Judeo-christian god.
See the dollar bill for evidence of who were supposed to trust in. And the pledge
The pledge had "Under God" added in the 1950s.

Quote
Bellamy's original Pledge read as follows:[6]

    I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be recited in 15 seconds. As a socialist, he had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity[5] but decided against it - knowing that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

As for the Dollar bill...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

So yeah, neither of your points works since both were put into place at least 80 years AFTER the formation of the country.

well the ones at the foundation are way to easy to show.

"It being the indispensable duty of all Nations, not only to offer up their supplications to ALMIGHTY GOD, the giver of all good, for His gracious assistance in a time of distress, but also in a solemn and public manner to give Him praise for His goodness in general, and especially for great and signal interpositions of His providence in their behalf. They do further recommend to all ranks, to testify to their gratitude to GOD for His goodness, by a cheerful obedience of His laws, and by promoting, each in His station, and by His influence, the practice of true and undefiled religion, which is the great foundation of public prosperity and national happiness."--George Washington, 1782
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on January 25, 2011, 05:07:31 PM
This post (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=4943.msg1055936#msg1055936) proves definitively that 1+1=1, so by extension, 1+1+1=1.
God, that's just copy pasta of how the fact that two raindrops make one raindrop, invalidates the entirety of applied math and physics and therefore all globular science

And this nation was at least founded upon a Judeo-christian god.
See the dollar bill for evidence of who were supposed to trust in. And the pledge
The pledge had "Under God" added in the 1950s.

Quote
Bellamy's original Pledge read as follows:[6]

    I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be recited in 15 seconds. As a socialist, he had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity[5] but decided against it - knowing that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

As for the Dollar bill...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

So yeah, neither of your points works since both were put into place at least 80 years AFTER the formation of the country.

well the ones at the foundation are way to easy to show.

"It being the indispensable duty of all Nations, not only to offer up their supplications to ALMIGHTY GOD, the giver of all good, for His gracious assistance in a time of distress, but also in a solemn and public manner to give Him praise for His goodness in general, and especially for great and signal interpositions of His providence in their behalf. They do further recommend to all ranks, to testify to their gratitude to GOD for His goodness, by a cheerful obedience of His laws, and by promoting, each in His station, and by His influence, the practice of true and undefiled religion, which is the great foundation of public prosperity and national happiness."--George Washington, 1782

I'm not going to argue that the founding Fathers were all Christian.  Nor will I argue that most of America at that time was Christian.
However I will argue that a nation isn't a "insert religion" nation just because the people who created it were of that religion.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on January 25, 2011, 07:39:04 PM
America is the Antichrist.
True, America does exist.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 25, 2011, 08:07:49 PM
ITT: The OP has no basis for his outlandish claim.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on January 25, 2011, 08:23:07 PM
ITT: The OP has no basis for his outlandish claim.
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on why you've disregarded the majority of the thread?

The US is not a Christian Nation because it was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. The treaty is simply an example of declaration of freedom from a certain religious system.

It's irrelevant, but the founders were not Christians either.

Quote
The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion.
-The Treaty of Tripoli

When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.
-John Adams

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.
-Thomas Jefferson

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
-Benjamin Franklin

By heaven, we understand a state of happiness, infinite in degree and eternal in duration. I can do nothing to deserve such a reward. He that, for giving a draught of water to a thirsty person, should expect to be paid with a good plantation, would be modest in his demands compared with those who think they deserve heaven for the little good they do on earth. ... for my part, I have not the vanity to think I deserve it, the folly to expect, or the ambition to desire it.
-Benjamin Franklin

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-Benjamin Franklin

He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.
-Benjamin Franklin

In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the want of it.
-Benjamin Franklin

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
-Benjamin Franklin

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

These are but a few of the quotes I bothered to track down before getting bored.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 25, 2011, 08:42:52 PM
Regardless....America was founded on Christian morals and values. 
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Mykael on January 25, 2011, 08:48:47 PM
Regardless....America was founded on Christian morals and values. 
Name them.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 25, 2011, 08:52:18 PM
Regardless....America was founded on Christian morals and values. 

lolwut?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 25, 2011, 08:54:28 PM
Regardless....America was founded on Christian morals and values. 
Name them.

Why?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 25, 2011, 08:56:37 PM
Regardless....America was founded on Christian morals and values. 
Name them.

Why?

"Give us evidence."
"Why?"

::)
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 25, 2011, 08:57:34 PM
What morals are exclusively Christian anyway? It doesn't make any sense to say "Christian morals" since many people who aren't Christian have the same morals.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on January 25, 2011, 09:17:46 PM
Regardless....America was founded on Christian morals and values.  
Morals existed before Christianity. They are independent of it.

Stoning disobedient children is to be "Christian".
Was our country founded on the notion that an uncircumcised boy is to be abandoned by his parents and community? No.

I can only think of slavery as one of the "Christian values" that did permeate early America, and I can't imagine you trying to defend that.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 25, 2011, 09:39:07 PM
Regardless....America was founded on Christian morals and values. 
Morals existed before Christianity.

And what exactly are "Christian values"? The bible spends more lines advocating incest than it does promoting most of the values of Christians talk about.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on January 26, 2011, 07:57:37 AM
Let's compare Christian law to American law shall we?  If our laws were truly based on Christianity, would we even have a 1st amendment protecting our freedom of speech and the press?

The 3rd commandment states that you shall not take the Lords name in vain.

In Exodus 22:18, it states "Do not blaspheme God, or curse the ruler of your people". 

Does that sound like morals that promote freedom of speech?  What about some other laws set forth in Exodus?

-If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

-Do not allow a sorceress to live

-Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the LORD must be destroyed

-Do not hold back offerings from your granaries.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 26, 2011, 09:31:11 AM
Call me when you bring up laws from the new testament.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 26, 2011, 10:57:55 AM
Call me when you bring up laws from the new testament.

Call me when the christian conservatives drop the gay marriage argument because it's not in the New Testament.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 26, 2011, 10:58:47 AM
Call me when you bring up laws from the new testament.

1 Timothy 2:11-12

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Mykael on January 26, 2011, 02:38:44 PM
Quote from: Romans 13:1
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

The act of revolution, which lies at the core of the formation of the American Republic, is expressly stated to be anti-Christian.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Space Cowgirl on January 26, 2011, 04:37:09 PM
Call me when you bring up laws from the new testament.

Call me when the christian conservatives drop the gay marriage argument because it's not in the New Testament.

They hate the OT unless there's a gay marriage happening somewhere.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 26, 2011, 05:07:04 PM
Call me when you bring up laws from the new testament.

Call me when the christian conservatives drop the gay marriage argument because it's not in the New Testament.

Your right.  But man on man sex is just gross and wrong.

Im not bored enough to look up that verse....who was speaking?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Beorn on January 26, 2011, 05:10:26 PM
Call me when you bring up laws from the new testament.

Call me when the christian conservatives drop the gay marriage argument because it's not in the New Testament.

Your right.  But man on man sex is just gross and wrong.


And why is that?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Ichimaru Gin :] on January 26, 2011, 05:11:54 PM
Because 2 women is so much better.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 26, 2011, 05:12:03 PM
Call me when you bring up laws from the new testament.

Call me when the christian conservatives drop the gay marriage argument because it's not in the New Testament.

Your right.  But man on man sex is just gross and wrong.


And why is that?

'Cuz they're faggots.

(http://oi35.tinypic.com/de1p4h.jpg)
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 26, 2011, 05:15:02 PM
Because 2 women is so much better.

Only when they are hot.  I dont want to see Ellen Degenress naked.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 26, 2011, 05:18:02 PM
Because 2 women is so much better.

Only when they are hot.  I dont want to see Ellen Degenress naked.

But if she's naked, her girlfriend's probably nearby.

(http://i.imgur.com/vkXAQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 26, 2011, 05:18:58 PM
Didn't she used to be anorexic or something?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 26, 2011, 06:10:02 PM
Didn't she used to be anorexic or something?

(http://dailyshite.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/bulimia.jpg)
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 26, 2011, 07:04:22 PM

-Do not allow a sorceress to live


That is a mistranslation. It is actually referring to poisoners, not witches. But regardless. I hate it when people use Christian Values as excuses, when they pick and choose those values. God hates sodomites, so people hate gays. But many of those same people commit sodomy via anal, oral, or protected sex. If you have ever done any of the above, your god doesn't consider you any better than gays. If your bother dies, and you refuse to marry his widow, the Bible wants her to literally throw shit on you and have you banished. Would you consider that one of your Christian Values?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 26, 2011, 07:11:02 PM

-Do not allow a sorceress to live


That is a mistranslation. It is actually referring to poisoners, not witches.

[citation needed]
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 26, 2011, 07:14:51 PM

-Do not allow a sorceress to live


That is a mistranslation. It is actually referring to poisoners, not witches.

[citation needed]

Sorry, got that mixed up. That's a different mistranslation. However, this one specifically refers to witches that harm others through their witchcraft, so it's still a mistranslation. http://www.wiccantogether.com/profiles/blogs/thou-shalt-not-suffer-a-witch?xg_source=activity

Edit: no, according to the comments under that article, the word which was mistranslated to mean witch can, in fact, also mean poisoner.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Thevoiceofreason on January 26, 2011, 07:17:15 PM
Call me when you bring up laws from the new testament.

Call me when the christian conservatives drop the gay marriage argument because it's not in the New Testament.

They hate the OT unless there's a gay marriage happening somewhere.
FACT
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 26, 2011, 07:17:42 PM

-Do not allow a sorceress to live


That is a mistranslation. It is actually referring to poisoners, not witches.

[citation needed]

Sorry, got that ixed up. That's a different mistranslation. However, this one specifically refers to witches that harm others through their witchcraft, so it's still a mistranslation. http://www.wiccantogether.com/profiles/blogs/thou-shalt-not-suffer-a-witch?xg_source=activity

[citation needed]
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 26, 2011, 07:24:13 PM

-Do not allow a sorceress to live


That is a mistranslation. It is actually referring to poisoners, not witches.

[citation needed]

Sorry, got that ixed up. That's a different mistranslation. However, this one specifically refers to witches that harm others through their witchcraft, so it's still a mistranslation. http://www.wiccantogether.com/profiles/blogs/thou-shalt-not-suffer-a-witch?xg_source=activity

[citation needed]

http://www.proteuscoven.org/proteus/Suffer.htm
http://www.wiccantogether.com/profiles/blogs/thou-shalt-not-suffer-a-witch?xg_source=activity
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 26, 2011, 07:32:57 PM
A blog is not a citation was the point of that.

And even if it was a mistranslation, what does it matter if it's telling us to kill witches or evil witches? The point is that the bible is telling us to kill people WHO DO MAGIC. Magic.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 26, 2011, 07:36:36 PM
Like magicians?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 26, 2011, 07:36:44 PM
A blog is not a citation was the point of that.

And even if it was a mistranslation, what does it matter if it's telling us to kill witches or evil witches? The point is that the bible is telling us to kill people WHO DO MAGIC. Magic.

I know. I was just saying. I completely agree with everything you said there. Read the rest of that post, please.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Mykael on January 26, 2011, 07:38:14 PM
A blog is not a citation was the point of that.

And even if it was a mistranslation, what does it matter if it's telling us to kill witches or evil witches? The point is that the bible is telling us to kill people WHO DO MAGIC. Magic.

[Nietzsche]
God is magic. Must we now kill God?
[/Nietzsche]
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 26, 2011, 07:40:35 PM
A blog is not a citation was the point of that.

And even if it was a mistranslation, what does it matter if it's telling us to kill witches or evil witches? The point is that the bible is telling us to kill people WHO DO MAGIC. Magic.

[Nietzsche]
God is magic. Must we now kill God?
[/Nietzsche]

[Nietzsche]
No, he's already dead. Didn't you hear?
[/Nietzsche]
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Mykael on January 26, 2011, 07:45:07 PM
A blog is not a citation was the point of that.

And even if it was a mistranslation, what does it matter if it's telling us to kill witches or evil witches? The point is that the bible is telling us to kill people WHO DO MAGIC. Magic.

[Nietzsche]
God is magic. Must we now kill God?
[/Nietzsche]

[Nietzsche]
No, he's already dead. Didn't you hear?
[/Nietzsche]

[Nietzsche]
As a matter of fact, I hadn't. To be honest, it's difficult for me to see past my glorious mustache.
[/Nietzsche]
(http://www.iep.utm.edu/wp-content/media/Nietzsche-274x300.jpg)
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 26, 2011, 07:51:05 PM
Like magicians?

(http://www.splattermail.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/210.gif)
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on January 27, 2011, 06:24:00 AM

-Do not allow a sorceress to live


That is a mistranslation. It is actually referring to poisoners, not witches. But regardless. I hate it when people use Christian Values as excuses, when they pick and choose those values. God hates sodomites, so people hate gays. But many of those same people commit sodomy via anal, oral, or protected sex. If you have ever done any of the above, your god doesn't consider you any better than gays. If your bother dies, and you refuse to marry his widow, the Bible wants her to literally throw shit on you and have you banished. Would you consider that one of your Christian Values?

Who's side do you think I'm on?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 27, 2011, 07:51:57 AM

-Do not allow a sorceress to live


That is a mistranslation. It is actually referring to poisoners, not witches. But regardless. I hate it when people use Christian Values as excuses, when they pick and choose those values. God hates sodomites, so people hate gays. But many of those same people commit sodomy via anal, oral, or protected sex. If you have ever done any of the above, your god doesn't consider you any better than gays. If your bother dies, and you refuse to marry his widow, the Bible wants her to literally throw shit on you and have you banished. Would you consider that one of your Christian Values?

Who's side do you think I'm on?

I only quoted you for the first part of my post. The rest of it was just me ranting at people who actually believe in 'Christian Values' as something which are good.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on January 27, 2011, 07:57:15 AM

-Do not allow a sorceress to live


That is a mistranslation. It is actually referring to poisoners, not witches. But regardless. I hate it when people use Christian Values as excuses, when they pick and choose those values. God hates sodomites, so people hate gays. But many of those same people commit sodomy via anal, oral, or protected sex. If you have ever done any of the above, your god doesn't consider you any better than gays. If your bother dies, and you refuse to marry his widow, the Bible wants her to literally throw shit on you and have you banished. Would you consider that one of your Christian Values?

Who's side do you think I'm on?

I only quoted you for the first part of my post. The rest of it was just me ranting at people who actually believe in 'Christian Values' as something which are good.
Of course they're good.
Good, to a Christian, is defined by what God wants.  God is the moral Good in that religion.  Whether they pass more... modern definitions of Good is another matter.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 27, 2011, 08:06:14 AM

-Do not allow a sorceress to live


That is a mistranslation. It is actually referring to poisoners, not witches. But regardless. I hate it when people use Christian Values as excuses, when they pick and choose those values. God hates sodomites, so people hate gays. But many of those same people commit sodomy via anal, oral, or protected sex. If you have ever done any of the above, your god doesn't consider you any better than gays. If your bother dies, and you refuse to marry his widow, the Bible wants her to literally throw shit on you and have you banished. Would you consider that one of your Christian Values?

Who's side do you think I'm on?

I only quoted you for the first part of my post. The rest of it was just me ranting at people who actually believe in 'Christian Values' as something which are good.
Of course they're good.
Good, to a Christian, is defined by what God wants.  God is the moral Good in that religion.  Whether they pass more... modern definitions of Good is another matter.


And yet, if a widow threw shit at her brother-in-law and ran him out of town, I don't think many Christians would consider it a good thing.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on January 27, 2011, 12:55:58 PM

-Do not allow a sorceress to live


That is a mistranslation. It is actually referring to poisoners, not witches. But regardless. I hate it when people use Christian Values as excuses, when they pick and choose those values. God hates sodomites, so people hate gays. But many of those same people commit sodomy via anal, oral, or protected sex. If you have ever done any of the above, your god doesn't consider you any better than gays. If your bother dies, and you refuse to marry his widow, the Bible wants her to literally throw shit on you and have you banished. Would you consider that one of your Christian Values?

Who's side do you think I'm on?

I only quoted you for the first part of my post. The rest of it was just me ranting at people who actually believe in 'Christian Values' as something which are good.
Of course they're good.
Good, to a Christian, is defined by what God wants.  God is the moral Good in that religion.  Whether they pass more... modern definitions of Good is another matter.


And yet, if a widow threw shit at her brother-in-law and ran him out of town, I don't think many Christians would consider it a good thing.
The question is: is it God's law or did some guy just put it into the bible?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 28, 2011, 11:36:29 AM
I sent this in a PM during a recent discussion.  I thought i would include it here as well.  I did add a correction in red below.  If you dont want to read all the religious propaganda go to the last paragraph which i think is the most important out of the whole thing.  Internet quote follows........

One reason we have lost so many of our religious freedoms is that the liberal educational establishment has worked hard to eliminate our knowledge of the Judeo-Christian heritage of America. The facts nonetheless reveal the true convictions of our founders. Without question, they believed that although no one Christian denomination should dominate the nation, the principles of the Bible and Christianity should underlie our government and American education as well.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry This quote is not from Patric Henry, But he was a Christian.  http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/fake-quotations-patrick-henry-on-religionists/ (http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/fake-quotations-patrick-henry-on-religionists/)

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay

"The liberties we talk about defending today were established by men who took their conceptions of man from the great central religious tradition of Western civilization [Christianity], and the liberties we inherit can almost certainly not survive the abandonment of that tradition. The decay of decency in the modern age, the rebellion against law and good faith, the treatment of human beings as things, as mere instruments of power and ambition, is without a doubt the consequence of the decay of the belief in man as someone more than an animal animated by highly conditioned reflexes and chemical reactions. For unless man is something more than that, he has no rights that anyone is bound to respect, and there are no limitations upon his conduct which he is bound to obey. This is the forgotten foundation of democracy." [James Reston, "Faith of Our Fathers, Living Still?" The New York Times, April 2, 1969]

Our children's history books are being rewritten so they no longer hear the truth about the tremendous influence of religious faith on America's founding fathers, on the great documents they drafted to establish a true republic based, on the critical tripod of liberty, life, and family. The revisionist history being taught now is devoid of any reference to the Christian faith of our Founding Fathers as the old stories, the old way that American history was taught, was revised to reflect a more liberal, politically correct, homogenized and multicultural perspective.

Words like duty and honor and country have fallen out of vogue, and the stories of the Christian faith of men like George Washington and Patrick Henry and Noah Webster and so many others, Daniel Webster, Andy Jackson, Chief Justice John Marshall - magnificent Christians - these stories are simply left out.

While many may squabble over who among the founding fathers was a Christian, no knowledgeable historian of early American history can deny the fact that the concept of a Creator God who endowed His creation with "unalienable rights" was an essential underpinning of the American experiment. Indeed, the Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These rights were derived not from a government that was transitory, but from a Governor who was eternal. It was the role of government to defend these rights and not dilute or remove them.

The revisionists extend the influence of their world view outside the classroom as well into nearly every segment of American life. Descriptions and tours of the nation's capitol, for example, fail to point out that the Ten Commandments are inscribed in the marble of the United States Supreme Court, that there is a beautiful stained glass window in the U.S. Capitol depicting President George Washington kneeling in prayer, and that at the top of the Washington Monument - the highest point in the nation's capital is embedded a plaque which boldly proclaims in Latin, "Praise Be Unto God."
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 28, 2011, 11:50:43 AM
If anything, America's government was based on Rome. And the Bible does not teach that all men are create equal. Non-believers will burn in Hell for all eternity, for Pete's sake. And human rights are not religious in nature. You have philosophers like Thomas Paine, Thomas Hobbes, and John Locke who were talking about things like human rights and social contracts.

And finally, here are some quotes to end the post:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." —Thomas Jefferson

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself." —Thomas Jefferson

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world." —John Adams

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there  were no religion in it." —John Adams

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." —Benjamin Franklin

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it." —Benjamin Franklin

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." —James Madison

And really, so what even if they were devout Christians? Does that matter? The government was still founded to be separate from any and all religions, to be a secular government. The beliefs of the people who founded it don't really matter.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Space Cowgirl on January 28, 2011, 12:20:19 PM
Serious question, Wardogg... What religious freedoms have been lost? 
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 28, 2011, 12:30:54 PM
Words like duty and honor and country have fallen out of vogue, and the stories of the Christian faith of men like George Washington and Patrick Henry and Noah Webster and so many others, Daniel Webster, Andy Jackson, Chief Justice John Marshall - magnificent Christians - these stories are simply left out.

Words like 'duty', 'honor', and 'nation' caused both world wars.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 28, 2011, 12:35:53 PM
America is based off of the ideals of ancient Athens, ancient Rome, John Locke, and the Magna Carta. Of those, one was Christian.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 28, 2011, 01:37:03 PM
One reason we have lost so many of our religious freedoms is that the liberal educational establishment has worked hard to eliminate our knowledge of the Judeo-Christian heritage of America.

Why would they do that?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Mykael on January 28, 2011, 01:54:08 PM
If anything, America's government was based on Rome. And the Bible does not teach that all men are create equal. Non-believers will burn in Hell for all eternity, for Pete's sake. And human rights are not religious in nature. You have philosophers like Thomas Paine, Thomas Hobbes, and John Locke who were talking about things like human rights and social contracts.

And finally, here are some quotes to end the post:

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth." ?Thomas Jefferson

"Gouverneur Morris had often told me that General Washington believed no more of that system (Christianity) than did he himself." ?Thomas Jefferson

"God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there will never be any liberal science in the world." ?John Adams

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there  were no religion in it." ?John Adams

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." ?Benjamin Franklin

"In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the lack of it." ?Benjamin Franklin

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." ?James Madison

And really, so what even if they were devout Christians? Does that matter? The government was still founded to be separate from any and all religions, to be a secular government. The beliefs of the people who founded it don't really matter.
This, pretty much.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 28, 2011, 01:58:30 PM
*Trekkys big long post*

This would have ended the thread if it had been full of facts or the truth.  Alas....it was not.

America is based off of the ideals of ancient Athens, ancient Rome, John Locke, and the Magna Carta. Of those, one was Christian.

Thats not entirely true.

One reason we have lost so many of our religious freedoms is that the liberal educational establishment has worked hard to eliminate our knowledge of the Judeo-Christian heritage of America.

Why would they do that?

To spread a progressive agenda away from what we were actually founded on?  Have you seen the angry rhetoric towards religion on just this small board?

Serious question, Wardogg... What religious freedoms have been lost? 

The freedom to put a nativity scene infront of a government building.  The freedom to call Christmas, Christmas.  The freedom for a school to have a moment of prayer before everyday begins.  The freedom to hold a Christmas pageant at a school.  I could probably come up with some more examples if you wish.

Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Beorn on January 28, 2011, 02:03:21 PM
The freedom to put a nativity scene infront of a government building.  The freedom to call Christmas, Christmas.  The freedom for a school to have a moment of prayer before everyday begins.  The freedom to hold a Christmas pageant at a school.  I could probably come up with some more examples if you wish.

So you think freedom is enforcing your religion on other people?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 28, 2011, 02:06:13 PM
The freedom to put a nativity scene infront of a government building.  The freedom to call Christmas, Christmas.  The freedom for a school to have a moment of prayer before everyday begins.  The freedom to hold a Christmas pageant at a school.  I could probably come up with some more examples if you wish.

So you think freedom is enforcing your religion on other people?


So you think freedom is oppressing mine?  Especially when the foundations of the nation were set in said religion?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 28, 2011, 02:07:11 PM
This, pretty much.

So the basis of your argument is in lies and mis-quotes.  Got it.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Beorn on January 28, 2011, 02:08:56 PM
The freedom to put a nativity scene infront of a government building.  The freedom to call Christmas, Christmas.  The freedom for a school to have a moment of prayer before everyday begins.  The freedom to hold a Christmas pageant at a school.  I could probably come up with some more examples if you wish.

So you think freedom is enforcing your religion on other people?


So you think freedom is oppressing mine?  Especially when the foundations of the nation were set in said religion?

I'm not oppressing yours. You are free to religiously express yourself, there's no law against it. If you want you can have a prayer before school begins. You can call Christmast Christmas. You can worship whatever you want. The school isn't forcing you to not act like a christian.

And we established that the foundations of the nation aren't set in said religion.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on January 28, 2011, 02:10:42 PM
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry This quote is not from Patric Henry, But he was a Christian.  http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/fake-quotations-patrick-henry-on-religionists/ (http://fakehistory.wordpress.com/2009/06/14/fake-quotations-patrick-henry-on-religionists/)
This quote is therefore irrelevant.

Quote
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/capital.asp
Scroll to the bottom for the full quote.  It sounds more like him whining that there are Non-Christians in power.

Quote
"The liberties we talk about defending today were established by men who took their conceptions of man from the great central religious tradition of Western civilization [Christianity], and the liberties we inherit can almost certainly not survive the abandonment of that tradition. The decay of decency in the modern age, the rebellion against law and good faith, the treatment of human beings as things, as mere instruments of power and ambition, is without a doubt the consequence of the decay of the belief in man as someone more than an animal animated by highly conditioned reflexes and chemical reactions. For unless man is something more than that, he has no rights that anyone is bound to respect, and there are no limitations upon his conduct which he is bound to obey. This is the forgotten foundation of democracy." [James Reston, "Faith of Our Fathers, Living Still?" The New York Times, April 2, 1969]
lol.  I like how he believes that humans haven't been treated as "things, as mere instruments of power and ambition" before the 1960s.


Quote
Our children's history books are being rewritten so they no longer hear the truth about the tremendous influence of religious faith on America's founding fathers, on the great documents they drafted to establish a true republic based, on the critical tripod of liberty, life, and family. The revisionist history being taught now is devoid of any reference to the Christian faith of our Founding Fathers as the old stories, the old way that American history was taught, was revised to reflect a more liberal, politically correct, homogenized and multicultural perspective.
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.  Please get it right.
Secondly, I'd like to see evidence of what the "old ways" taught.  Show me a history book from the 1800s please.

Quote
Words like duty and honor and country have fallen out of vogue, and the stories of the Christian faith of men like George Washington and Patrick Henry and Noah Webster and so many others, Daniel Webster, Andy Jackson, Chief Justice John Marshall - magnificent Christians - these stories are simply left out.
Again, assuming they were Christian, why does this matter?  I'm Athiest.  Does that mean that any values I have and impart onto law have no relation to Christian values at all?


Quote
While many may squabble over who among the founding fathers was a Christian, no knowledgeable historian of early American history can deny the fact that the concept of a Creator God who endowed His creation with "unalienable rights" was an essential underpinning of the American experiment. Indeed, the Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These rights were derived not from a government that was transitory, but from a Governor who was eternal. It was the role of government to defend these rights and not dilute or remove them.
Not really.  They were derived by a philosophical viewpoint of empathy most likely.  

Quote
The revisionists extend the influence of their world view outside the classroom as well into nearly every segment of American life. Descriptions and tours of the nation's capitol, for example, fail to point out that the Ten Commandments are inscribed in the marble of the United States Supreme Court, that there is a beautiful stained glass window in the U.S. Capitol depicting President George Washington kneeling in prayer, and that at the top of the Washington Monument - the highest point in the nation's capital is embedded a plaque which boldly proclaims in Latin, "Praise Be Unto God."
http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/monument.asp
The plaque was put in about 100 years after the formation of the nation.


The freedom to put a nativity scene infront of a government building.  The freedom to call Christmas, Christmas.  The freedom for a school to have a moment of prayer before everyday begins.  The freedom to hold a Christmas pageant at a school.  I could probably come up with some more examples if you wish.

1. Government can't favor one religion over another.  It's in the constitution.  
2. No one has lost the freedom of calling Christmas, Christmas.  Stores just don't want to because it upsets non-Christians.  Well... some stores anyway.
3. I don't know what school you come from but at the one I'm from they have a group that prays outside every thrusday before the start of school.  We also have a moment of silent mediation which was the old "silent prayer" but again, the constitution says that all government agencies must be religiously neutral so forced prayer is not allowed but if you want to meet on the school grounds and pray, no one will stop you.
4. Only if they hold one for all the other religions, which get's messy.  It's easier to hold a Holiday pageant.  Get all of them in at one shot.  But again, Separation of Church and State.  Right there in the founding documents.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 28, 2011, 02:14:28 PM
. The school isn't forcing you to not act like a christian.

Oops.  Next time try homework. 

The U. S. Supreme Court issued two bans on prayer in public schools. The first ban came in 1962 and the second was issued in 1963. The bans were the result of a court case sponsored in part by Madalyn Murray O'Hair. She was but one of the litigants in the lawsuit, but her name became synonymous with the case and the promotion of atheism. The ban not only outlawed prayer in public schools but it also banned Bible reading in public schools.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair was the founder of American Atheists, Inc. which not only sought to ban prayer in public schools but also actively promoted atheism and the continued separation of church and school. Madalyn Murray O'Hair was born in 1919 and mysteriously disappeared in 1995. It is assumed that she was murdered and her body was discovered in 2001.

In addition to be credited with the banning of prayer in public schools, Madalyn Murray O'Hair is also credited with trying to petition the U.S. government and the FCC to ban the use of the word "God" on the airways. However, unlike the ban on prayer in public schools this proposed ban is an Internet hoax, and her organization denies the rumors that this petition to ban the use of the word "God" on the airways was her doing.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair is survived by her son William J. Murray, the president of the Religious Freedom Coalition in Washington D.C. Unlike his mother who fought to ban prayer in public schools, William J. Murray is a strong Christian who fights for the rights of Christians around the world.


And we established that the foundations of the nation aren't set in said religion.

We?  Really?  Im not too sure about that statement.

Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 28, 2011, 02:16:16 PM
 But again, Separation of Church and State.  Right there in the founding documents.

Where?  The words exactly if you please.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Beorn on January 28, 2011, 02:19:40 PM
. The school isn't forcing you to not act like a christian.

Oops.  Next time try homework. 

The U. S. Supreme Court issued two bans on prayer in public schools. The first ban came in 1962 and the second was issued in 1963. The bans were the result of a court case sponsored in part by Madalyn Murray O'Hair. She was but one of the litigants in the lawsuit, but her name became synonymous with the case and the promotion of atheism. The ban not only outlawed prayer in public schools but it also banned Bible reading in public schools.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair was the founder of American Atheists, Inc. which not only sought to ban prayer in public schools but also actively promoted atheism and the continued separation of church and school. Madalyn Murray O'Hair was born in 1919 and mysteriously disappeared in 1995. It is assumed that she was murdered and her body was discovered in 2001.

In addition to be credited with the banning of prayer in public schools, Madalyn Murray O'Hair is also credited with trying to petition the U.S. government and the FCC to ban the use of the word "God" on the airways. However, unlike the ban on prayer in public schools this proposed ban is an Internet hoax, and her organization denies the rumors that this petition to ban the use of the word "God" on the airways was her doing.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair is survived by her son William J. Murray, the president of the Religious Freedom Coalition in Washington D.C. Unlike his mother who fought to ban prayer in public schools, William J. Murray is a strong Christian who fights for the rights of Christians around the world.


And we established that the foundations of the nation aren't set in said religion.

We?  Really?  Im not too sure about that statement.



the constitution says that all government agencies must be religiously neutral so forced prayer is not allowed but if you want to meet on the school grounds and pray, no one will stop you.


Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on January 28, 2011, 02:23:31 PM
. The school isn't forcing you to not act like a christian.

Oops.  Next time try homework. 

The U. S. Supreme Court issued two bans on prayer in public schools. The first ban came in 1962 and the second was issued in 1963. The bans were the result of a court case sponsored in part by Madalyn Murray O'Hair. She was but one of the litigants in the lawsuit, but her name became synonymous with the case and the promotion of atheism. The ban not only outlawed prayer in public schools but it also banned Bible reading in public schools.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair was the founder of American Atheists, Inc. which not only sought to ban prayer in public schools but also actively promoted atheism and the continued separation of church and school. Madalyn Murray O'Hair was born in 1919 and mysteriously disappeared in 1995. It is assumed that she was murdered and her body was discovered in 2001.

In addition to be credited with the banning of prayer in public schools, Madalyn Murray O'Hair is also credited with trying to petition the U.S. government and the FCC to ban the use of the word "God" on the airways. However, unlike the ban on prayer in public schools this proposed ban is an Internet hoax, and her organization denies the rumors that this petition to ban the use of the word "God" on the airways was her doing.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair is survived by her son William J. Murray, the president of the Religious Freedom Coalition in Washington D.C. Unlike his mother who fought to ban prayer in public schools, William J. Murray is a strong Christian who fights for the rights of Christians around the world.

Ooops.

Please read the whole document next time:

http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/prayer-in-public-school.htm

Quote
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the First Amendment requires public school officials to be neutral in their treatment of religion, showing neither favoritism toward nor hostility against religious expression such as prayer. Good News Club v. Milford Cent. Sch., 533 U.S. 98 (2001); Everson v. Board of Educ., 330 U.S. 1 (1947). Accordingly, the First Amendment forbids religious activity that is sponsored by the government but protects religious activity that is initiated by private individuals, and the line between government-sponsored and privately initiated religious expression is vital to a proper understanding of the First Amendment's scope. As the Court has explained in several cases, "there is a crucial difference between government speech endorsing religion, which the Establishment Clause forbids, and private speech endorsing religion, which the Free Speech and Free Exercise Clauses protect." Santa Fe Indep. Sch. Dist. v. Doe, 530 U.S. 290, 302 (2000).

 But again, Separation of Church and State.  Right there in the founding documents.
Where?  The words exactly if you please.
Bill Of Rights - First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 28, 2011, 02:37:06 PM
. The school isn't forcing you to not act like a christian.

Oops.  Next time try homework. 

The U. S. Supreme Court issued two bans on prayer in public schools. The first ban came in 1962 and the second was issued in 1963. The bans were the result of a court case sponsored in part by Madalyn Murray O'Hair. She was but one of the litigants in the lawsuit, but her name became synonymous with the case and the promotion of atheism. The ban not only outlawed prayer in public schools but it also banned Bible reading in public schools.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair was the founder of American Atheists, Inc. which not only sought to ban prayer in public schools but also actively promoted atheism and the continued separation of church and school. Madalyn Murray O'Hair was born in 1919 and mysteriously disappeared in 1995. It is assumed that she was murdered and her body was discovered in 2001.

In addition to be credited with the banning of prayer in public schools, Madalyn Murray O'Hair is also credited with trying to petition the U.S. government and the FCC to ban the use of the word "God" on the airways. However, unlike the ban on prayer in public schools this proposed ban is an Internet hoax, and her organization denies the rumors that this petition to ban the use of the word "God" on the airways was her doing.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair is survived by her son William J. Murray, the president of the Religious Freedom Coalition in Washington D.C. Unlike his mother who fought to ban prayer in public schools, William J. Murray is a strong Christian who fights for the rights of Christians around the world.


And we established that the foundations of the nation aren't set in said religion.

We?  Really?  Im not too sure about that statement.



You speak of a radical atheist. They exist. Get over it.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 28, 2011, 02:42:16 PM
Where?  The words exactly if you please.
Bill Of Rights - First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment

Strange, I dont see the words I asked for in there.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 28, 2011, 02:43:18 PM
The freedom to put a nativity scene infront of a government building.  The freedom to call Christmas, Christmas.  The freedom for a school to have a moment of prayer before everyday begins.  The freedom to hold a Christmas pageant at a school.  I could probably come up with some more examples if you wish.

Why should there be school-sanctioned prayer? I literally cannot think of a reason other than oppression of non-Christians. Would you be happy if schools had a calling bell and forced kids to pray, in Farsi, in the general direction of Mecca? How about if teachers read from the Quran?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 28, 2011, 02:43:51 PM
Where?  The words exactly if you please.
Bill Of Rights - First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment

Strange, I dont see the words I asked for in there.

The Supreme Court has decided many times that it's implied.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on January 28, 2011, 02:46:11 PM
Where?  The words exactly if you please.
Bill Of Rights - First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment

Strange, I dont see the words I asked for in there.

The Supreme Court has decided many times that it's implied.
Exactly.
There's a lot in the Constitution that wasn't explicitly written.  It's not like they foresaw what the world would be like 100 years ago.  Fortunately they DID give the future generation the power to interpret the document and conform it to the times.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 28, 2011, 02:59:26 PM
Where?  The words exactly if you please.
Bill Of Rights - First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment

Strange, I dont see the words I asked for in there.

The Supreme Court has decided many times that it's implied.

The Supreme Court thoroughly studied this issue, and in 1892 gave what is known as the Trinity Decision. In that decision the Supreme Court declared, "this is a Christian nation." John Quincy Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was, it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." The founders were definitely Christian for the most part. At least 90 to 95 percentage of them were practicing, Trinitarian Christians. This and the additional supporting evidence below show conclusively that the concern that motivated the framers to include the establishment clause in the constitution was definitely not fear of the doctrinal religion of Christian Theism. It was understood that Christian Theism was the default state doctrinal religion. As opposed to being something to fear, it was something believed to be vital to the success of our government. Consequently, the framers feared a state denominational religion not a state doctrinal religion

Other evidence includes:

Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust."

The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

God is mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on its monuments and buildings.

As a nation, we have celebrated Christmas to commemorate the Savior's birth for centuries.

Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.

The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.

Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.

Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.

Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."

Our national anthem mentions God.

The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.

The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God.

Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.

Our nations birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, mentions God four times.

The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 28, 2011, 03:22:39 PM
Just so we're clear, you can pray in school. The school just can't enforce prayer, which would be ridiculous and unconstitutional if they did.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Beorn on January 28, 2011, 03:46:22 PM
ITT: Wardogg thinks Christian religion is being oppressed because schools can't oppress all their students by forcing them to pray.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 28, 2011, 03:54:53 PM
"We're being oppressed because

-Schools won't force kids to pray to our God,
-We can't put Christian symbols on government property,
-We can't have Christian plays at government schools,
-We can't call Christmas Christmas...oh wait...that's retarded. We can."

Call me when you'll let kids put on plays of Islamic traditional stories or put mosques on government property.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 28, 2011, 03:59:03 PM
Where?  The words exactly if you please.
Bill Of Rights - First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment

Strange, I dont see the words I asked for in there.

The Supreme Court has decided many times that it's implied.

The Supreme Court thoroughly studied this issue, and in 1892 gave what is known as the Trinity Decision. In that decision the Supreme Court declared, "this is a Christian nation." John Quincy Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was, it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." The founders were definitely Christian for the most part. At least 90 to 95 percentage of them were practicing, Trinitarian Christians. This and the additional supporting evidence below show conclusively that the concern that motivated the framers to include the establishment clause in the constitution was definitely not fear of the doctrinal religion of Christian Theism. It was understood that Christian Theism was the default state doctrinal religion. As opposed to being something to fear, it was something believed to be vital to the success of our government. Consequently, the framers feared a state denominational religion not a state doctrinal religion

Other evidence includes:

Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust."

The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

God is mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on its monuments and buildings.

As a nation, we have celebrated Christmas to commemorate the Savior's birth for centuries.

Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.

The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.

Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.

Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.

Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."

Our national anthem mentions God.

The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.

The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God.

Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.

Our nations birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, mentions God four times.

The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools.

First of all, citations please. Second, upon reading the Declaration of Independence, I found the word God printed exactly once. It does not specify what god it speaks of. It may be talking about Zeus, for all we know.
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html

In 2007, Alabama became the first state in the union to approve a Bible-based textbook.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1674427,00.html

What's wrong with having Chaplains? It is a boost to morale to have religion in a soldier's life.

As for the state's constitutions, I'll need a source. It was common to say 'The year of our lord [insert year]' back then, so this may not mean anything.

The Liberty Bell was made in the 1680's.
http://www.chevroncars.com/learn/history/liberty-bell

Star Spangled Banner was written by a poet who was prisoner on a British ship during the War of 1812. I fail to see how this proves anything.

Thomas Jefferson was sworn in on a Qu'ran. There is debate as to whether or not Washington swore in on a Bible or said "So help me God".

The founding fathers quoted the Bible because it was the only book that many Americans could recognize at that time period.

The Bible is very symbolic. For this reason alone it is used in court. You have always been able to opt out of this if you so desired.

Who cares if we celebrate Christmas? Most atheists do this as well. And most non-fundamentalist Jews. I know because I am one and my Mom is the other.

Just because something is carved in stone doesn't mean that the government carved it.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on January 28, 2011, 04:09:41 PM
Thomas Jefferson was sworn in on a Qu'ran.

And you talk to me about sources.


He owned one.  He wasn't sworn in on it. 
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 28, 2011, 04:11:01 PM
Thomas Jefferson was sworn in on a Qu'ran.

And you talk to me about sources.


He owned one.  He wasn't sworn in on it. 

Oh, sorry. I retract that statement and note my error. Now dismiss the rest of what I said, please.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Space Cowgirl on January 28, 2011, 04:15:27 PM
Wardogg, I wish you'd think about the things you listed as religious freedoms.  You can put a nativity scene on your own property.  Also, you can pray anytime and anywhere you like, no one is stopping students from praying.  You can also call Christmas Christmas or whatever you like.  I guess you're right about Christmas pageants at school, but you could hold your own Christmas pageant at your home or church... so your freedom to do these things hasn't been lost.  
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 28, 2011, 04:27:02 PM
The Supreme Court thoroughly studied this issue, and in 1892 gave what is known as the Trinity Decision. In that decision the Supreme Court declared, "this is a Christian nation." John Quincy Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was, it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." The founders were definitely Christian for the most part. At least 90 to 95 percentage of them were practicing, Trinitarian Christians. This and the additional supporting evidence below show conclusively that the concern that motivated the framers to include the establishment clause in the constitution was definitely not fear of the religion of Christian Theism. It was understood that Christian Theism was the default state doctrinal religion. As opposed to being something to fear, it was something believed to be vital to the success of our government. Consequently, the framers feared a state denominational religion not a state doctrinal religion

Quote
The following quote from the decision has given rise to the misunderstanding that in 1892 the Supreme Court endorsed the idea that the United States is officially a "Christian Nation":

Quote
These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. 143 U.S. 457 (1892)

Perhaps realizing how his phrasing could create mischief and misinterpretation, Justice Brewer published a book in 1905 titled The United States: A Christian Nation. In it he wrote:

Quote
But in what sense can [the United States] be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or the people are compelled in any manner to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all its citizens are either in fact or in name Christians. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within its borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. [...] Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions. Justice Brewer's decision was not, therefore, any attempt to argue that the laws in the United States should enforce Christianity or reflect solely Christian concerns and beliefs. He was simply making an observation which is consistent with the fact that people in this country tend to be Christian.

Justice Brewer served during that case. He seems to disagree with you.


Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust."

Yep. It's been the national motto since 1956 when the red scare was ongoing.

The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

Moses and the Ten Commandments are one depiction out of many in the building, and are given no importance. Other depictions of Greece and Rome are shown. Moses is shown as an important event in law history, out of many. So no, this doesn't mean anything.

God is mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on its monuments and buildings.

Please give specific examples rather than "THEY'RE EVERYWHERE LOL".

As a nation, we have celebrated Christmas to commemorate the Savior's birth for centuries.

The people have celebrated Christmas. The government has not. There's a difference.

Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.

You don't have to take an oath to God.

Quote
Do you swear or affirm that the testimony you are about to give is the truth?

The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.

Yeah, it's an important piece of literature. That doesn't mean anything. Even if they practiced, what the fuck does it matter? I mean jesus, who cares? That doesn't mean the government should be Christian.

Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.

Again, presidents are people, not the government. It doesn't matter.

Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.

Again, who fucking cares. People can fucking pray. That doesn't mean the government is Christian.

Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."

John Quincy Adams swore in on a book of law.

Our national anthem mentions God.

In the fourth stanza, which no one sings. And it doesn't matter since it was written by an individual, not the government.

The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.

Is the liberty bell a symbol of the government? No? It got made before the government even existed? Then shut the fuck up.

The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God.

[citation needed]

Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.

And? They're there for people. If you're Islamic, you can probably get an Islamic chaplain.

Our nations birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, mentions God four times.

No, it doesn't. And that's not a government document anyway, so IT DOESN'T MATTER.

The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools.

Keyword = WAS

You seem to be mixing up having a lot of Christian people with having a Christian government. Just because the founding fathers or presidents or anyone else is christian doesn't mean the government is Christian.

Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 28, 2011, 04:30:17 PM
See, even if all that stuff is true, it doesn't fucking matter. You have yet to show that the GOVERNMENT is Christian. Christian people ≠ christian government. Also, you have yet to show that you are being oppressed at all. So kindly please stop being a fucking child by claiming you are being oppressed or that the United States was ever so unconstitutional as to have a religious Government. It disgraces the country.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on January 28, 2011, 04:41:59 PM
Quote from:  Wardogg
Help! Help! I'm being oppressed! Did you see him oppressing me? You saw him, didn't you?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on January 28, 2011, 04:56:45 PM
Where?  The words exactly if you please.
Bill Of Rights - First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment

Strange, I dont see the words I asked for in there.

The Supreme Court has decided many times that it's implied.

The Supreme Court thoroughly studied this issue, and in 1892 gave what is known as the Trinity Decision. In that decision the Supreme Court declared, "this is a Christian nation." John Quincy Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was, it connected in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." The founders were definitely Christian for the most part. At least 90 to 95 percentage of them were practicing, Trinitarian Christians. This and the additional supporting evidence below show conclusively that the concern that motivated the framers to include the establishment clause in the constitution was definitely not fear of the doctrinal religion of Christian Theism. It was understood that Christian Theism was the default state doctrinal religion. As opposed to being something to fear, it was something believed to be vital to the success of our government. Consequently, the framers feared a state denominational religion not a state doctrinal religion
Wow... You got all that from a supreme court ruling about foreign laborer importing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Holy_Trinity_v._United_States

Quote
Other evidence includes:

Emblazoned over the Speaker of the House in the US Capitol are the words "In God We Trust."
Official Motto "In God We Trust" was established in the 1950s.

Quote
The Supreme Court building built in the 1930's has carvings of Moses and the Ten Commandments.
That's almost 200 years after the founding of the nation.  

Quote
God is mentioned in stone all over Washington D.C., on its monuments and buildings.
God is mentioned in a lot of places.  Doesn't mean that the government wrote it.  Plus, if you recall your history, Washington DC wasn't the Capital of the United States for a good many years.

Quote
As a nation, we have celebrated Christmas to commemorate the Savior's birth for centuries.
Yes, the majority of Americans today are Christian just like the Majority of Americans are white.  Your point?

Quote
Oaths in courtrooms have invoked God from the beginning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torcaso_v._Watkins

Quote
The founding fathers often quoted the Bible in their writings.
So do you.  What's your point?  So long as it's not part of their work, then what they believe in their personal life is their business.

Quote
Every president that has given an inaugural address has mentioned God in that speech.
They also mention lowering taxes.  It's called apealing to the masses.

Quote
Prayers have been said at the swearing in of each president.
Each president was sworn in on the Bible, saying the words, "So help me God."
Personal choice.

Quote
Our national anthem mentions God.
Written 40 years after the founding of the nation.

Quote
The liberty bell has a Bible verse engraved on it.
"Proclaim LIBERTY throughout all the Land unto all the inhabitants thereof" (Leviticus 25:10)
Sounds pretty good to me.  I'd accept that as an engraving on the Liberty Bell.

Quote
The original constitution of all 50 states mentions God.
Hawaii doesn't seem to have it mentioned.
Also, it seems that the majority of them mention it in the preamble in this quote:
Quote
We, the people of (State), grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings, do establish this Constitution.
Sounds more like tradition to me.

Quote
Chaplains have been in the public payroll from the very beginning.
Proof?

Quote
Our nations birth certificate, the Declaration of Independence, mentions God four times.
I see the word God only once.
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html

Quote
The Bible was used as a textbook in the schools.
You should mention that most universities were Church sponsored and thus taught scripture along side law.  They weren't public universities.
But yes, the Bible was approved for use in schools. It was not endorsed or enforced.  It was likely a very readily book compared to other, more educational books.


Please stop the CopyPasta.
http://www.allabouthistory.org/separation-of-church-and-state.htm
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on January 28, 2011, 05:17:06 PM
So out of those three responses, I think some progress has been made.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on February 02, 2011, 08:13:12 PM
http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c,2849/
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 03, 2011, 05:12:55 AM
http://www.dakotavoice.com/?p=20583

http://www.dakotavoice.com/tag/christian-heritage/
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Wakka Wakka on February 03, 2011, 07:08:24 AM
http://www.dakotavoice.com/?p=20583

http://www.dakotavoice.com/tag/christian-heritage/
A vastly right wing website promoting vastly right wing ideas?  Unheard of...
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 03, 2011, 08:04:00 AM
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion

Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: berny_74 on February 03, 2011, 08:15:09 AM
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion



Because the United States of America of the past is not the United States of America of the present.
Times change and morals change.

Berny
'Nuff said.


Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 03, 2011, 08:39:09 AM
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion



I did bring it up, in the OP.  I said can you imagine a bill with this language being approved unanimously today.


Because the United States of America of the past is not the United States of America of the present.
Times change and morals change.

Berny
'Nuff said.

Also stated in the OP, the debate in this thread is not whether we are a christian nation now, in fact we are probably the most christian of all 1st world nations.  The debate is on whether we were founded this way.

Also, nobody is arguing that the founders were not religious, it is completely irrelevant to whether or not our government is secular. 
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 03, 2011, 08:52:28 AM
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion



Because the United States of America of the past is not the United States of America of the present.
Times change and morals change.

Berny
'Nuff said.

As Beno said, we are talking about whether or not the states were founded on the Christian religion. The Treaty of Tripoli states that it was not, and considering the second congress and a founding father unanimously voted for it, I think that is pretty conclusive.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 03, 2011, 09:05:00 AM
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion



Because the United States of America of the past is not the United States of America of the present.
Times change and morals change.

Berny
'Nuff said.

As Beno said, we are talking about whether or not the states were founded on the Christian religion. The Treaty of Tripoli states that it was not, and considering the second congress and a founding father unanimously voted for it, I think that is pretty conclusive.

An interesting fact.  After the treaty was broken by the muslims, the article was taken out.  You should really read a whole thread before commenting on it.  Welcome to 5 pages ago.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 03, 2011, 09:14:04 AM
Why has nobody brought up this bill that receive a unanimous vote from the senate:

Quote from: Treaty of Tripoli
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion



Because the United States of America of the past is not the United States of America of the present.
Times change and morals change.

Berny
'Nuff said.

As Beno said, we are talking about whether or not the states were founded on the Christian religion. The Treaty of Tripoli states that it was not, and considering the second congress and a founding father unanimously voted for it, I think that is pretty conclusive.

An interesting fact.  After the treaty was broken by the muslims, the article was taken out.  You should really read a whole thread before commenting on it.  Welcome to 5 pages ago.

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 03, 2011, 09:19:21 AM

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.

They also lied to and deceived many an Indian nation.  The US government has never ever lied before to get what it wanted.  ::)

Point being if it was so important, you would have thought they would have left it in.   /thread.

Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on February 03, 2011, 09:23:49 AM

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.

They also lied to and deceived many an Indian nation.  The US government has never ever lied before to get what it wanted.  ::)

Point being if it was so important, you would have thought they would have left it in.   /thread.


Why would it be important to state the US was not founded as a christion nation?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 03, 2011, 09:31:21 AM

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.

They also lied to and deceived many an Indian nation.  The US government has never ever lied before to get what it wanted.  ::)

Point being if it was so important, you would have thought they would have left it in.   /thread.


Why would it be important to state the US was not founded as a christion nation?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.  It was only included in that particular article because there was an advantage to having a treaty with the muslims at that time.   When they broke the treaty and it was renegotiated, it was left out because they had them by the balls, so to speak, and didn't need them as much as they needed us.  Which is why we left it out.  It was untrue and wasn't needed anymore.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 03, 2011, 09:32:50 AM

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.

They also lied to and deceived many an Indian nation.  The US government has never ever lied before to get what it wanted.  ::)

Point being if it was so important, you would have thought they would have left it in.   /thread.


Why would it be important to state the US was not founded as a christion nation?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.  It was only included in that particular article because there was an advantage to having a treaty with the muslims at that time.   When they broke the treaty and it was renegotiated, it was left out because they had them by the balls, so to speak, and didn't need them as much as they needed us.  Which is why we left it out.  It was untrue and wasn't needed anymore.

And this is documented fact, or just your speculation?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 03, 2011, 09:43:51 AM
And this is documented fact, your just your speculation?

Did you read the thread?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 03, 2011, 09:45:04 AM
Quote
it was left out because they had them by the balls, so to speak, and didn't need them as much as they needed us.  Which is why we left it out.  It was untrue and wasn't needed anymore.

And this is documented fact, or just your speculation?


Please site where congress stated this is the reason they left it out.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 03, 2011, 09:47:50 AM
Prove to me its a fallacy.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 03, 2011, 09:50:31 AM
Where did I state it was a fallacy? ???

I asked you to site the Congress stated what you said they did. Otherwise, this is just you being so desperate that you have to make things up to have an argument.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 03, 2011, 09:54:50 AM
Where did I state it was a fallacy? ???

In logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is incorrect reasoning in argumentation resulting in a misconception.

Even if I am just speculating(which isn't an admission) you are saying that it is incorrect.

I asked you to site the Congress stated what you said they did. Otherwise, this is just you being so desperate that you have to make things up to have an argument.

Get back to me when you can prove otherwise.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 03, 2011, 10:03:34 AM
In logic and rhetoric, a fallacy is incorrect reasoning in argumentation resulting in a misconception.

Even if I am just speculating(which isn't an admission) you are saying that it is incorrect.

Incorrect. Something being fallacious is different than something being incorrect.

Get back to me when you can prove otherwise.

Appeal to ignorance as well as trying to shift the burden of proof. That is fallacious.

You made the assertion that it happened, therefore it is up to you to prove so. Right now you are essentially saying, "It happened! Prove me wrong."

If you cannot provide evidence to support your assertion, then we are free to discard it along with every other unsupported reason why the article was removed.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on February 03, 2011, 05:31:05 PM
There is an invisible unicorn in this image. As you can not prove me wrong, clearly I am right.
(http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/02/images/090226-giant-stringray-picture-missions_big.jpg)
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on February 03, 2011, 06:28:35 PM

Irrelevant.  Though the treaty that was presented to the muslims did not contain article 11, it was included in the version that was voted on unanimously and passed into law.

EDIT:  I'll also add that the version with article 11 was also read out loud in it's entirity before being voted on.  Everybody who voted yes on this knew this language was in the treaty.

They also lied to and deceived many an Indian nation.  The US government has never ever lied before to get what it wanted.  ::)

Point being if it was so important, you would have thought they would have left it in.   /thread.


Why would it be important to state the US was not founded as a christion nation?

I'm not sure what you are getting at.  It was only included in that particular article because there was an advantage to having a treaty with the muslims at that time.   When they broke the treaty and it was renegotiated, it was left out because they had them by the balls, so to speak, and didn't need them as much as they needed us.  Which is why we left it out.  It was untrue and wasn't needed anymore.

I agree with English that you need to site the source of this claim but assuming it's correct....


You're saying that America was founded on lying.
You're also saying that America was not founded as a Christian nation. 
Why?
Well, how can it be a Christian nation if it lies about it?  Wouldn't that be horribly against Christian values?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Pongo on February 03, 2011, 06:34:06 PM
There is an invisible unicorn in this image. As you can not prove me wrong, clearly I am right.
(http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/02/images/090226-giant-stringray-picture-missions_big.jpg)


I can't find it anywhere.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 03, 2011, 06:44:48 PM
http://www.au.org/resources/history/old-docs/joel-barlow-and-the-treaty.pdf
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on February 03, 2011, 06:51:59 PM
http://www.au.org/resources/history/old-docs/joel-barlow-and-the-treaty.pdf

What does this add to the discussion?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 03, 2011, 06:54:10 PM
http://www.au.org/resources/history/old-docs/joel-barlow-and-the-treaty.pdf

Seems like speculation to me. Most of his claims are weak at best. The thought that one guy was responsible for Article 11, and that either all of the Congress didn't see the Article or that it was snuck in there is unfounded and ludicrous.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 03, 2011, 09:19:15 PM
ITT: The OP has no basis for his outlandish claim.
Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on why you've disregarded the majority of the thread?

The US is not a Christian Nation because it was founded on the principle of separation of church and state. The treaty is simply an example of declaration of freedom from a certain religious system.

It's irrelevant, but the founders were not Christians either.

Quote
The Government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion.
-The Treaty of Tripoli

When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.
-John Adams

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology.
-Thomas Jefferson

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
-Benjamin Franklin

By heaven, we understand a state of happiness, infinite in degree and eternal in duration. I can do nothing to deserve such a reward. He that, for giving a draught of water to a thirsty person, should expect to be paid with a good plantation, would be modest in his demands compared with those who think they deserve heaven for the little good they do on earth. ... for my part, I have not the vanity to think I deserve it, the folly to expect, or the ambition to desire it.
-Benjamin Franklin

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.
-Benjamin Franklin

He (the Rev. Mr. Whitefield) used, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard.
-Benjamin Franklin

In the affairs of the world, men are saved, not by faith, but by the want of it.
-Benjamin Franklin

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
-Benjamin Franklin

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Adrian Van der Kemp, 30 July, 1816

These are but a few of the quotes I bothered to track down before getting bored.

Regardless....America was founded on Christian morals and values.  

What's your current position Wardogg? ???
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 03, 2011, 11:33:10 PM
http://www.au.org/resources/history/old-docs/joel-barlow-and-the-treaty.pdf

This does nothing but show evidence for exactly what I was claiming.  Did you read this?

Quote
In the end, how Article 11 got into the Treaty is less important than the reaction it received in the United States. As
Borden notes, ?What is significant about the Tripoli treaty is...its ready acceptance by the government. Not a word
of protest was raised against Article 11 in 1797....Whatever their personal feelings on the question of religious
equality for non-Christians in particular states, all concurred that Article 11 comported with the principles of the
Constitution.?


In the Senate, the treaty barely caused a ripple. According to The Journal of the Executive Proceedings of the United
States Senate, the treaty was read aloud on the floor of the Senate and copies were printed for the senators. No
discussion or argument about the document was recorded, but the vote in favor was unanimous.

Quote
But Hurgronje?s discovery is irrelevant. There is no longer any doubt that the English version of the treaty
transmitted to the United States did contain the ?no Christian nation? language. Article 11 appeared intact in
newspapers of the day as well as in volumes of treaties and proceedings of Congress published later, including the
Session Laws of the Fifth Congress, published in 1797, and in a 1799 volume titled The Laws of the United States. In
1832 Article 11 appeared in the treaty when it was reprinted in Documents, Legislative and Executive, of the
Congress of the United States 1789-1815, Volume II ? a tome that can still be examined today in the Library of
Congress? main reading room.


Article 11 soon took on a life of its own. Years after the treaty was ratified, references to it began popping up in
speeches, articles and court rulings. Borden notes that ?Article 11 had been cited hundreds of times in numerous
court cases and in political debates whenever the issue of church-state relations arose
....Jews frequently referred to
the article in discussions of a much-debated question, whether or not the United States was a Christian nation.?

Quote
In 1804 U.S. ships under the command of Stephen Decatur bombarded Tripoli, and the blockade was stepped up.
The following year, Tripoli sued for peace. A diplomat named Tobias Lear negotiated a peace treaty; the new
document did not contain the exact anti-?Christian nation? language of Barlow?s treaty, although it did contain an
article stating that the United States has no established church.
The United States agreed to pay Tripoli $60,000, and
all of the Philadelphia?s sailors were released.

Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 04, 2011, 04:28:42 AM
What's your current position Wardogg? ???

My current position is that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were not practicing Christians.  2 out of 56 is a majority for sure.

1. John Hancock (Massachusetts)
New Hampshire
2. Josiah Bartlett
3. William Whipple
4. Matthew Thornton
Massachusetts
5. Samuel Adams
6. John Adams
7. Robert Treat Paine
8. Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island
9. Stephen Hopkins
10. William Ellery
Connecticut
11. Roger Sherman
12. Samuel Huntington
13. William Williams
14. Oliver Wolcott
New York
15. William Floyd
16. Philip Livingston
17. Francis Lewis
18. Lewis Morris
New Jersey
19. Richard Stockton
20. John Witherspoon
21. Francis Hopkinson
22. John Hart
23. Abraham Clark
Pennsylvania
24. Robert Morris
25. Benjamin Rush
26. Benjamin Franklin
27. John Morton
28. George Clymer
29. James Smith
30. George Taylor
31. James Wilson
32. George Ross
Delaware
33. George Read
34. Caesar Rodney
35. Thomas McKean
Maryland
36. Samuel Chase
37. William Paca
38. Thomas Stone
39. Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia
40. George Wythe
41. Richard Henry Lee
42. Thomas Jefferson
43. Benjamin Harrison
44. Thomas Nelson, Jr.
45. Francis Lightfoot Lee
46. Carter Braxton
North Carolina
47. William Hooper
48. Joseph Hewes
49. John Penn
South Carolina
50. Edward Rutledge
51. Thomas Heyward, Jr.
52. Thomas Lynch, Jr.
53. Arthur Middleton
Georgia
54. Button Gwinnett
55. Lyman Hall
56. George Walton


the new document did not contain the exact anti-?Christian nation? language of Barlow?s treaty, although it did contain an
article stating that the United States has no established church.


Yes I did read it and this quote proves my point.  Ive never said our government has an established church.  And neither did the founding fathers. But you cannot deny what we were based on.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 04, 2011, 05:03:07 AM
What's your current position Wardogg? ???

My current position is that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were not practicing Christians.  2 out of 56 is a majority for sure.

1. John Hancock (Massachusetts)
New Hampshire
2. Josiah Bartlett
3. William Whipple
4. Matthew Thornton
Massachusetts
5. Samuel Adams
6. John Adams
7. Robert Treat Paine
8. Elbridge Gerry
Rhode Island
9. Stephen Hopkins
10. William Ellery
Connecticut
11. Roger Sherman
12. Samuel Huntington
13. William Williams
14. Oliver Wolcott
New York
15. William Floyd
16. Philip Livingston
17. Francis Lewis
18. Lewis Morris
New Jersey
19. Richard Stockton
20. John Witherspoon
21. Francis Hopkinson
22. John Hart
23. Abraham Clark
Pennsylvania
24. Robert Morris
25. Benjamin Rush
26. Benjamin Franklin
27. John Morton
28. George Clymer
29. James Smith
30. George Taylor
31. James Wilson
32. George Ross
Delaware
33. George Read
34. Caesar Rodney
35. Thomas McKean
Maryland
36. Samuel Chase
37. William Paca
38. Thomas Stone
39. Charles Carroll of Carrollton
Virginia
40. George Wythe
41. Richard Henry Lee
42. Thomas Jefferson
43. Benjamin Harrison
44. Thomas Nelson, Jr.
45. Francis Lightfoot Lee
46. Carter Braxton
North Carolina
47. William Hooper
48. Joseph Hewes
49. John Penn
South Carolina
50. Edward Rutledge
51. Thomas Heyward, Jr.
52. Thomas Lynch, Jr.
53. Arthur Middleton
Georgia
54. Button Gwinnett
55. Lyman Hall
56. George Walton

Nobody has argued that the majority of founders were not Christian.  Of course they were, that does not mean they created a christian government.  The federal government was the most secular government in history.  Also, why is it you did not include one of the most important founders, James Madison, who is often credited as the author of the Constitution?  The man authored the Bill of Rights.  What about Alexander Hamilton?

The Four founders most responsible for the language in the Constitution are:  James Madison, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Frankin.

EDIT:  Sorry, Jefferson and Benjamin Frankin were more responsible for the Declaration, not the Constitution.

Quote
the new document did not contain the exact anti-?Christian nation? language of Barlow?s treaty, although it did contain an
article stating that the United States has no established church.


Yes I did read it and this quote proves my point.  Ive never said our government has an established church.  And neither did the founding fathers. But you cannot deny what we were based on.

The only evidence you have offered is that our founders were Christian (well most of them were).  I never said that they were not, and it does not prove we were founded a Christian nation.  We are a nation of course, made of of mostly Christians, but the government is secular.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 04, 2011, 10:32:33 AM

My current position is that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were not practicing Christians.  2 out of 56 is a majority for sure.

Is 'practicing' the operative word? (I presume you do not think they were Christians at all?)

It's true that their personal religious opinions are irrelevant to the country, but you should still know that citing dozens of deists as Christians is blatantly deceitful. Many of them criticized organized religion.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Lorddave on February 04, 2011, 01:39:35 PM
What I want to know is what these "values" are that the United States is based off that they share with Christianity and ONLY Christianity.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: 17 November on February 04, 2011, 11:31:16 PM
What I want to know is what these "values" are that the United States is based off that they share with Christianity and ONLY Christianity.

Quite vague, is it not? 

Although Wardogg has made at least a couple of interesting arguments, I think the important point is that the religious right attempts to forcibly impose its own artificial and pathetic version of religion upon others when the founding laws of the United States clearly provide for a multi-cultural society which is a phenomenon that also has historical precedent. 

Aside from the traditions of British, French, and american political activists like the English Levellers, the Jacobins, and the Anti-Federalists, the Ottoman Empire, for example, was renown for its tolerance providing freedom of faith for Christians, muslims, and jews.  Certain elements of the agenda of the american religious right are reminiscent of the vehement nationalism and aggressive religious politics imbibed by some peoples in the final years of the Ottoman Empire after these same peoples had hitherto harmoniously lived together for centuries.  I think the american civil rights movement (and its predecessors) did produce some semblance of such common goodwill which the post-war conservative movement including the american religious right has generally tended to minimize if not destroy. 

As far as I am concerned, the British ancestors of the founders of america were heretics who had abandoned the Church by circa 1066 A.D. when England severed communion with Constantinople.  Thus, both the masonic american founders and the religious right are heretics, and I therefore view the american system as essentially non-Christian just as the Ottoman Empire.  A reference to the Holy Trinity in the Treaty of Paris in 1782 and the reference to the God of nature in the Declaration of Independence or plaques of the Ten Commandments in courtrooms are facades which obscure the fact that the United States was never Christian at any time.  The removal of such nominal signs of Christianity is indeed apostasy, but it is logical and expected for an essentially agnostically founded and oriented society.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: 17 November on February 06, 2011, 12:37:09 PM
My current position is that Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin were not practicing Christians.  2 out of 56 is a majority for sure.

Nobody has argued that the majority of founders were not Christian...

...except for me.  None of them were Christians.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on February 06, 2011, 05:34:39 PM
What I want to know is what these "values" are that the United States is based off that they share with Christianity and ONLY Christianity.

Quite vague, is it not? 

Although Wardogg has made at least a couple of interesting arguments, I think the important point is that the religious right attempts to forcibly impose its own artificial and pathetic version of religion upon others when the founding laws of the United States clearly provide for a multi-cultural society which is a phenomenon that also has historical precedent. 

Aside from the traditions of British, French, and american political activists like the English Levellers, the Jacobins, and the Anti-Federalists, the Ottoman Empire, for example, was renown for its tolerance providing freedom of faith for Christians, muslims, and jews.  Certain elements of the agenda of the american religious right are reminiscent of the vehement nationalism and aggressive religious politics imbibed by some peoples in the final years of the Ottoman Empire after these same peoples had hitherto harmoniously lived together for centuries.  I think the american civil rights movement (and its predecessors) did produce some semblance of such common goodwill which the post-war conservative movement including the american religious right has generally tended to minimize if not destroy. 

As far as I am concerned, the British ancestors of the founders of america were heretics who had abandoned the Church by circa 1066 A.D. when England severed communion with Constantinople.  Thus, both the masonic american founders and the religious right are heretics, and I therefore view the american system as essentially non-Christian just as the Ottoman Empire.  A reference to the Holy Trinity in the Treaty of Paris in 1782 and the reference to the God of nature in the Declaration of Independence or plaques of the Ten Commandments in courtrooms are facades which obscure the fact that the United States was never Christian at any time.  The removal of such nominal signs of Christianity is indeed apostasy, but it is logical and expected for an essentially agnostically founded and oriented society.

I rather like you.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Areweonfiya on February 10, 2011, 10:39:02 PM
Wait wait wait wait... wait. So Wardogg, answer me this;
How would you feel when visiting your son's school and suddenly hearing an Islamic prayer through the announcements? What about some quotes from the Qu'ran plastered on the wall of the Supreme Court? Quran study sessions at school? I am genuinly curious to know if you're willing to defend these "religious rights" of other religions as well in our public institutions.

Also hi
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 11, 2011, 06:30:32 AM
Wait wait wait wait... wait. So Wardogg, answer me this;
How would you feel when visiting your son's school and suddenly hearing an Islamic prayer through the announcements? What about some quotes from the Qu'ran plastered on the wall of the Supreme Court? Quran study sessions at school? I am genuinly curious to know if you're willing to defend these "religious rights" of other religions as well in our public institutions.

Also hi

The point being muslims didn't found this nation.

Also, I once took a field trip with my daughters class to a temporary Buddhist temple(with monks) set up in a museum in Hawaii. I was not pleased.  What's next a Satanic church? And for that matter fine, lets go to a Christian Wednesday service.  You think there would be an uproar then?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Beorn on February 11, 2011, 06:55:35 AM
So you're actually pro-oppression.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 11, 2011, 07:35:15 AM
Wait wait wait wait... wait. So Wardogg, answer me this;
How would you feel when visiting your son's school and suddenly hearing an Islamic prayer through the announcements? What about some quotes from the Qu'ran plastered on the wall of the Supreme Court? Quran study sessions at school? I am genuinly curious to know if you're willing to defend these "religious rights" of other religions as well in our public institutions.

Also hi

So his answer is yes, he would be offended.

He just for some reason can't see his own hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 11, 2011, 08:58:40 AM
Wait wait wait wait... wait. So Wardogg, answer me this;
How would you feel when visiting your son's school and suddenly hearing an Islamic prayer through the announcements? What about some quotes from the Qu'ran plastered on the wall of the Supreme Court? Quran study sessions at school? I am genuinly curious to know if you're willing to defend these "religious rights" of other religions as well in our public institutions.

Also hi

The point being muslims didn't found this nation.

Also, I once took a field trip with my daughters class to a temporary Buddhist temple(with monks) set up in a museum in Hawaii. I was not pleased.  What's next a Satanic church? And for that matter fine, lets go to a Christian Wednesday service.  You think there would be an uproar then?

Who cares who founded the nation if the nation is built on secular principles? Also, who cares if your daughters went to a Buddhist temple? Did it scar them for life, seeing a different religion than they had been exposed to? I mean jesus, this line of reasoning is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 11, 2011, 09:13:37 AM
Did it scar them for life, seeing a different religion than they had been exposed to?

No, I was right there to show the absolute absurdity of it all.

Would you have the same opinion if they had gone to a Christian service?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 11, 2011, 09:16:18 AM
Did it scar them for life, seeing a different religion than they had been exposed to?

No, I was right there to show the absolute absurdity of it all.

Would you have the same opinion if they had gone to a Christian service?

You mean like a Christmas pageant? Yeah, I'd have the same who-gives-a-shit attitude. As long as opinions aren't being forced onto someone, I really don't care.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: optimisticcynic on February 11, 2011, 09:23:54 AM
Did it scar them for life, seeing a different religion than they had been exposed to?

No, I was right there to show the absolute absurdity of it all.

Would you have the same opinion if they had gone to a Christian service?

I would say that there is a difference between learning about other religions, and have the school have a sponsored religious rights. I have no problem with schools teaching about how Christianity as effected the world and teaching the basic tenants of it and all other major religions for that matter. I have problems with school sponsorship of a religion...
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Beorn on February 11, 2011, 09:27:09 AM
Did it scar them for life, seeing a different religion than they had been exposed to?

No, I was right there to show the absolute absurdity of it all.


Serious question that I always wonder with religious people: How can you call other religions absurd but think that yours is valid?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: 17 November on February 11, 2011, 04:18:26 PM
The best collection of writings by american founders that I have come across is the 'Anti-Federalist Papers' compiled by Morton Borden.

http://www.iahushua.com/hist/AntiFED.html

The Anti-Federalists supported the revolution against the British monarchy, but opposed the US Constitution because it was an instrument of tyranny that reversed what the revolution had accomplished.  They were responsible for the Bill of Rights.  The Anti-Federalists wanted more rights enumerated, but compromised with the Hamiltonians (the Federalists) who wanted common peoples' rights restricted.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 11, 2011, 07:06:53 PM
The Bill of Rights addressed many of the concerns that the anti federalists had, but not all.  In reality the signing of the Constitution should be known as "The Great Compromise". 

The Federalists (which is a misnomer, they were actually nationalists) supported a strong national government, with all government powers originating at the national level, then the national government would give some of that power to the state governments, who would give some to the local governments, etc.

The Anti-Federalists (also a misnomer, since they actually were federalists) supported a federal government, with all power originating with the people, who give up some power to the local governments, who in turn give some to the state governments, who in turn give some to the national government.

What we ended up getting in the end was mostly a federalist document, where powers are left with the people, and the states, and the federal government is limited.  There were several nationalist compromises though, the federal government is solely responsible for regulating, printing, and coining money, for example.  States are also not allowed to make treaties with foreign nations, that can only be done at the Federal level.

Madison was against enumerated rights at first, but not for the reason that they wanted rights restricted.  His reasoning was that because of the doctrine of enumeration (that is, if the specific power is not enumerated in the Constitution, then the Federal Government does not have it) there was no specific power given to the Federal government to limit speech, religion, property, etc. in article 1 section 8.  His fear was if they enumerated rights in the Constitution, it would imply that the government was free to limit other rights not enumerated, and to expand on the powers enumerated.  For this he proposed the 9th amendment.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 11, 2011, 07:33:29 PM
The point being muslims didn't found this nation.

Right, Christians did (shut up 17).  But the Christians (or variant of) founded a secular government.

The original colonies were primarily peopled by refugees fleeing religious persecution in other countries. But almost upon arrival, the Puritans only continued that practice against native Shaman, then against Quakers, and even each other over religious differences. Catholics to the South were even worse!  The founding fathers however were largely Deists, the least devout form of theism.  They were brilliant men who knew better than to let religion rule over law because theocracy has in all instances almost automatically violated human rights and it inevitably always does.  Consequently, the irreligious and non-Christian framers of the American Constitution produced the first government ever to grant all its citizens the right to religious freedom, and they did so by forbidding the government from sponsoring or promoting one religion over any other.  Because it is not possible to have freedom of religion without having freedom from religion.    

Quote
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. --Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Quote
But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Quote
Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.

-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom


Quote
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802

Quote
History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

Quote
Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814


Quote
An alliance or coalition between Government and religion cannot be too carefully guarded against......Every new and successful example therefore of a PERFECT SEPARATION between ecclesiastical and civil matters is of importance........religion and government will exist in greater purity, without (rather) than with the aid of government. [James Madison in a letter to Livingston, 1822, from Leonard W. Levy- The Establishment Clause, Religion and the First Amendment,pg 124]

Quote
It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

Quote
Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. [James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance, addressed to the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, 1785]

Quote
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

Quote
Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, May 19, 1821
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Areweonfiya on February 11, 2011, 07:52:15 PM
Wait wait wait wait... wait. So Wardogg, answer me this;
How would you feel when visiting your son's school and suddenly hearing an Islamic prayer through the announcements? What about some quotes from the Qu'ran plastered on the wall of the Supreme Court? Quran study sessions at school? I am genuinly curious to know if you're willing to defend these "religious rights" of other religions as well in our public institutions.

Also hi

The point being muslims didn't found this nation.

And? The subject matter is religious freedom. You didn't answer my question.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: 17 November on February 11, 2011, 08:00:59 PM
The Federalists ... they were ... nationalists

Good point.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on February 12, 2011, 02:07:48 PM
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 12, 2011, 03:15:05 PM
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 12, 2011, 03:15:40 PM
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

He isn't.

He is an open one.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Areweonfiya on February 12, 2011, 06:48:51 PM
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

Are you willing to defend Muslims having the right to prayer in public schools for the sake of religious freedom?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on February 12, 2011, 06:57:52 PM
If you are, I welcome you to your opinion. If not, I must dismiss you as a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 12, 2011, 08:17:11 PM
But this is a Christian nation!!

 ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 13, 2011, 08:25:40 AM
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

Are you willing to defend Muslims having the right to prayer in public schools for the sake of religious freedom?

I, Wardogg, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on February 13, 2011, 08:39:04 AM
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

Are you willing to defend Muslims having the right to prayer in public schools for the sake of religious freedom?

I, Wardogg, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me Cthulhu.

Are you implying that Islamic prayer in schools is a threat to America. but Christian prayer isn't?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 13, 2011, 08:41:42 AM
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

Are you willing to defend Muslims having the right to prayer in public schools for the sake of religious freedom?

I, Wardogg, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Good. So we won't have forced prayer in school, because not all people are Christian, and we have freedom of religious practice in this country, as listed in the first amendment of the constitution. Everyone can still pray, but we're not going to force them. Glad we can agree.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on February 13, 2011, 08:42:09 AM
ITT: Wardogg is a closet racist.

.....nevermind.

Are you willing to defend Muslims having the right to prayer in public schools for the sake of religious freedom?

I, Wardogg, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

That oath prohibits both Islam and Christianity from being forced on kids in public schools. If that was your intended answer, I applaud you.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 13, 2011, 09:41:21 AM
Who said anything about being forced?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 13, 2011, 09:42:35 AM
Who said anything about being forced?

In many public schools children are require to pray.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 13, 2011, 09:44:08 AM
Who said anything about being forced?

In many public schools children are require to pray.

Oh, so you admit the title to this thread is incorrect?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: EnglshGentleman on February 13, 2011, 09:50:06 AM
Who said anything about being forced?

In many public schools children are require to pray.

Oh, so you admit the title to this thread is incorrect?

Where did I say this? But yes I do. This is not a Christian nation.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Beorn on February 13, 2011, 09:54:25 AM
Who said anything about being forced?

You wanted the schools to start with a prayer.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on February 13, 2011, 10:21:28 AM
Who said anything about being forced?

You went to a private school, didn't you? When something in a school is "not" mandatory, teachers generally make it so anyway. Or at least, that's my experience. And there are many schools where it is mandatory. This should be illegal.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 14, 2011, 08:06:37 AM
ITT:  Wardogg has shown that many of the founders were Christian, but he has not shown that the U.S. Government was founded as a Christian government, as opposed to a secular one.

Wardogg, can you point out where in the U.S. Constitution it establishes us as a Christian nation?
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: 17 November on February 14, 2011, 09:55:41 AM
Wardogg has shown that many of the founders were Christian

No, he has not because he cannot.  You share Wardogg's misunderstanding and it weakens your argument.

Even the devil can claim to be Christian, but it does not make it so.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 14, 2011, 10:58:54 AM
Wardogg has shown that many of the founders were Christian

No, he has not because he cannot.  You share Wardogg's misunderstanding and it weakens your argument.

Even the devil can claim to be Christian, but it does not make it so.

Every Christian denomination claims to be the true interpretation, the true religion, and all the others are decieved.  The only logical explanation is that they are ALL WRONG at least to some degree.  I am not going to argue whether or not the version of Christianity our founders believed in is really Christianity or not.  If you want to argue which denomination or variant of Christianity is the true one, create your own thread.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: 17 November on February 14, 2011, 12:01:34 PM
The only logical explanation is that they are ALL WRONG at least to some degree.
If you want to argue which denomination or variant of Christianity is the true one, create your own thread.
I suggest you follow your own advice.

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius
Wardogg has shown that many of the founders were Christian
Your insistence that they believed in even a version of Christianity weakens your argument that these same people founded a non-Christian government.

I agree with you that the United States government was never Christian at any time. (You do agree with that, don't you?)
I disagree with the assumption that its founders were Christians.  If you think this is irrelevant, then do please stop asserting that they were Christians.  You clearly stand with Wardogg on that issue.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 14, 2011, 12:30:25 PM
The only logical explanation is that they are ALL WRONG at least to some degree.
If you want to argue which denomination or variant of Christianity is the true one, create your own thread.
I suggest you follow your own advice.

Quote from: Marcus Aurelius
Wardogg has shown that many of the founders were Christian
Your insistence that they believed in even a version of Christianity weakens your argument that these same people founded a non-Christian government.

I agree with you that the United States government was never Christian at any time. (You do agree with that, don't you?)
I disagree with the assumption that its founders were Christians.  If you think this is irrelevant, then do please stop asserting that they were Christians.  You clearly stand with Wardogg on that issue.

The question as to whether or not the founders were Chistians has very little to do with whether or not the U.S. is a Christian Nation, that is all I wanted to point out to Wardogg, not bring up an argument on whether or not they were actually Christians.  It's a tangent, and it is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. 
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on February 14, 2011, 01:58:57 PM
Who said anything about being forced?

You went to a private school, didn't you? When something in a school is "not" mandatory, teachers generally make it so anyway. Or at least, that's my experience. And there are many schools where it is mandatory. This should be illegal.

No I didnt, and I grew up in a small town we were not forced to pray.  At least as far as I can remember...its been many years since i was in grade school  but for sure not in Jr High or High school.  My kids current elementary school has a moment of silence....is that so bad?

Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on February 14, 2011, 02:08:04 PM
Who said anything about being forced?

You went to a private school, didn't you? When something in a school is "not" mandatory, teachers generally make it so anyway. Or at least, that's my experience. And there are many schools where it is mandatory. This should be illegal.

No I didnt, and I grew up in a small town we were not forced to pray.  At least as far as I can remember...its been many years since i was in grade school  but for sure not in Jr High or High school.  My kids current elementary school has a moment of silence....is that so bad?



No. Not at all. I'm fine with that.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on February 14, 2011, 02:21:27 PM
Who said anything about being forced?

You went to a private school, didn't you? When something in a school is "not" mandatory, teachers generally make it so anyway. Or at least, that's my experience. And there are many schools where it is mandatory. This should be illegal.

No I didnt, and I grew up in a small town we were not forced to pray.  At least as far as I can remember...its been many years since i was in grade school  but for sure not in Jr High or High school.  My kids current elementary school has a moment of silence....is that so bad?

Yeah I heard about somebody suing about their kids school having a moment of silence.  I personally do not see how that is a public school sponsored religious practice, which is unconstitutional.  If it has a secular purpose, which is a requirment of the lime test, then I have no problem with it.

Even having Christian plays, or reading of the Bible is fine in my opinion, so long as it is done from a literary perspective, and not a religious one, is perfectly constitutional.  The Bible is an important piece of literature that is reference more times than any other book in history.

How can you read "The Master and the Margarita" without first being familiar with the Bible?  I had to read that for an English class in college, I was completely lost because I had not ever read the gospels at the time.

All that was deemed unconstitutional was school sponsored prayer and worship.  Though, students are still allowed to pray on their own time.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Tausami on February 14, 2011, 04:11:05 PM
My school has Christian plays, and no body has a problem with it. They also have Greek Mythology plays. I, and any reasonable person, don't have a problem so long as it isn't indoctrination and you aren't forcing kids to pretend they believe in something they don't. Prayer is fine, so long as the teacher doesn't lead it and there isn't any pressure as to whether or not you pray or who you pray to.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: 17 November on February 14, 2011, 04:18:59 PM
Perhaps it is only my opinion, but it seems that capitalism was the chief influence on the dominant official version of the american flag.  I say this because it bears a striking resemblance to the flag of the East India Company - especially the stripes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company#Flags
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: Trekky0623 on February 14, 2011, 06:55:17 PM
Perhaps it is only my opinion, but it seems that capitalism was the chief influence on the dominant official version of the american flag.  I say this because it bears a striking resemblance to the flag of the East India Company - especially the stripes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company#Flags

This comment came out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Not a Christian Nation
Post by: 17 November on February 14, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Perhaps it is only my opinion, but it seems that capitalism was the chief influence on the dominant official version of the american flag.  I say this because it bears a striking resemblance to the flag of the East India Company - especially the stripes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_East_India_Company#Flags

This comment came out of nowhere.

My point is that capitalism and not christianity appears to have been the chief influence upon the government approved design of the american flag.  This is further evident in that stars in the union area of the american flag replaced a cross which appeared in the same area of many flags of the East India Company.  That is in fact almost the only difference between the american flag and most flags used by the East India Company.