# The Flat Earth Society

## Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Q&A => Topic started by: vhu9644 on November 03, 2010, 08:24:07 PM

Title: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: vhu9644 on November 03, 2010, 08:24:07 PM
ships use gyroscopic compasses, which are not effected by magnetic fields

so how do they circumnavigate the earth without falling off, if they based it on a the above compass
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: berny_74 on November 04, 2010, 07:26:27 AM
ships use gyroscopic compasses, which are not effected by magnetic fields

so how do they circumnavigate the earth without falling off, if they based it on a the above compass

Hmm I was about to say all manufacturers are in on the conspiracy and are selling you faulty compasses but I actually would like an answer.  The magnetic compass is easy to grasp with North being the only fixed direction and S/E/W all dependent on north only.

Berny
Waiting for an example
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: spanner34.5 on November 04, 2010, 07:29:40 AM
ships use gyroscopic compasses, which are not effected by magnetic fields

so how do they circumnavigate the earth without falling off, if they based it on a the above compass
Not sure about ships but aircraft also have a giro compass. This is regularly re-set using the magnetic compass.
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 04, 2010, 07:32:12 AM
The gyroscopic compass points towards the Geographic North Pole.

Traveling eastwards or westwards in relation to the Geographic North Pole will take one in a large circle around it.
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: berny_74 on November 04, 2010, 07:40:54 AM
The gyroscopic compass points towards the Geographic North Pole.

Traveling eastwards or westwards in relation to the Geographic North Pole will take one in a large circle around it.

Thats easy to see with magnetic compass - but a gyroscope is fixed into a certain direction.  You can have one pointing due East (round earth east, that is 90 degrees from north) which would give someone fits trying to navigate on a flat earth.  This of course is about a gyroscope - a gyrocompass gets its readings from what the results of the gyroscope, in essence a gyrocompass is an analog computer.

Berny
Liked using the Gyrocompass over the binnacle compass
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 04, 2010, 08:11:51 AM
The gyroscopic compass points towards the Geographic North Pole.

Traveling eastwards or westwards in relation to the Geographic North Pole will take one in a large circle around it.

Thats easy to see with magnetic compass - but a gyroscope is fixed into a certain direction.  You can have one pointing due East (round earth east, that is 90 degrees from north) which would give someone fits trying to navigate on a flat earth.  This of course is about a gyroscope - a gyrocompass gets its readings from what the results of the gyroscope, in essence a gyrocompass is an analog computer.

Berny
Liked using the Gyrocompass over the binnacle compass

The Gyrocompass isn't stuck to a fixed position. It swivels to point at the Geographic North Pole, or at least gets its bearings from the Geographic North Pole.

In advanced Gyrocompasses which can point to the East, that pointer is always changing in relation to the position of the North Geographic Pole.

The "direction" of East is always curving, whether you are using a magnetic compass or a gyrocompass.

Indeed, East is also curved on a Round Earth as well. For example; if you are on top of a Round Earth 20 feet from the North Pole and you travel eastwards, where will your path take you?

The answer is in a circle around the North Pole. East is also curved in the Round Earth Model. It's curved around the North Pole.
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: berny_74 on November 04, 2010, 09:00:54 AM
The gyroscopic compass points towards the Geographic North Pole.

Traveling eastwards or westwards in relation to the Geographic North Pole will take one in a large circle around it.

Thats easy to see with magnetic compass - but a gyroscope is fixed into a certain direction.  You can have one pointing due East (round earth east, that is 90 degrees from north) which would give someone fits trying to navigate on a flat earth.  This of course is about a gyroscope - a gyrocompass gets its readings from what the results of the gyroscope, in essence a gyrocompass is an analog computer.

Berny
Liked using the Gyrocompass over the binnacle compass

The Gyrocompass isn't stuck to a fixed position. It swivels to point at the Geographic North Pole, or at least gets its bearings from the Geographic North Pole.

In advanced Gyrocompasses which can point to the East, that pointer is always changing in relation to the position of the North Geographic Pole.

The "direction" of East is always curving, whether you are using a magnetic compass or a gyrocompass.

Indeed, East is also curved on a Round Earth as well. For example; if you are on top of a Round Earth 20 feet from the North Pole and you travel eastwards, where will your path take you?

The answer is in a circle around the North Pole. East is also curved in the Round Earth Model. It's curved around the North Pole.

Gyro compasses are unreliable in the polar regions as well as magnetic compasses.  This is due to the earth's rotation.  A gyroscope is fixed to a position in outerspace - not to a point on the earth.
Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrocompass
Another, more practical, method is to use weights to force the axis of the compass to remain horizontal with respect to the Earth's surface, but otherwise allow it to rotate freely within that plane. In this case, gravity will apply a torque forcing the compass's axis toward true north. Because the weights will confine the compass's axis to be horizontal with respect to the Earth's surface, the axis can never align with the Earth's axis (except on the Equator) and must realign itself as the Earth rotates. But with respect to the Earth's surface, the compass will appear to be stationary and pointing along the Earth's surface toward the true North Pole.

In fact - on further reading - a gyrocompass actually proves the earth is spinning by the requirements and effects of dampening and the amount of errors that can occur.  In fact a gyrocompass seems to be an extremely complicated fit of machinery compared to the gyroscope.  Perhaps Thork can elaborate more on uses and error fixes as he would use them on aircraft.  I used a marine gyrocompass but besides the few times it broke down its use was limited by the fact that we were a sailboat.

Berny
This is interesting
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: Ski on November 04, 2010, 05:04:51 PM
A gyrocompass needs constant adjustment. I'm not sure it's the example I would use to try to damn FET.
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: ClockTower on November 04, 2010, 05:50:11 PM
A gyrocompass needs constant adjustment. I'm not sure it's the example I would use to try to damn FET.
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: vhu9644 on November 04, 2010, 06:26:22 PM
dont gyroscopes make the needle fixed towards the north, so if you went all the way south to it, you would reach antartica.  i was just thinking on how this would affect FE theory, becuase they say that the "ice wall" around the edge is there, and with a normal compass, you would just keep going back around, but with a gyroscopic compass, you cant right?
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: Ski on November 04, 2010, 08:20:20 PM
A gyrocompass needs constant adjustment. I'm not sure it's the example I would use to try to damn FET.

Rule:  When  at  sea,  the  Quartermaster  must  determine  the  gyrocompass error  at  least  once  a  day.  However,  the  prudent  navigator  will  take advantage  of  every  opportunity  to  check  the  accuracy  of  a  gyro.

Quote from: http://www.slideshare.net/azvdo/lesson-10-gyro-and-magnetic-compass
The gyrocompass is an electronic/mechanical device with an inherent error... The key is knowing the error and adjusting for it.

Every compass, magnetic or gyro has a certain amount of error in it on at least some headings at least some of the time. If it is a good compass, properly maintained, the deviation or gyro error is usually small and often goes unnoticed on short trips. An undetected error of even a degree or two can make quite a difference on a long haul... Gyro error can creep in and disappear without anyone touching the gyro compass. It is a good practice to compare the compass with a known correct bearing frequently. Usually, you find everything is fine, but you might be surprised to learn how often you find some error.

When a ship is at sea, the navigator should determine the gyrocompass error at least once a day; this is required of naval vessels and is desirable on any ship. Over and above this bare minimum the prudent navigator will take advantage of every opportunity to check the accuracy of his gyro. The importance of so doing is emphasized by a grounding case on record where the failure of a ship's gyro went undetected for a period of over twelve hours, with the result that at the time of grounding the vessel was over 110deg off course and more than 200 miles out of position.

Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: vhu9644 on November 04, 2010, 08:24:26 PM
A gyrocompass needs constant adjustment. I'm not sure it's the example I would use to try to damn FET.

Rule:  When  at  sea,  the  Quartermaster  must  determine  the  gyrocompass error  at  least  once  a  day.  However,  the  prudent  navigator  will  take advantage  of  every  opportunity  to  check  the  accuracy  of  a  gyro.

Quote from: http://www.slideshare.net/azvdo/lesson-10-gyro-and-magnetic-compass
The gyrocompass is an electronic/mechanical device with an inherent error... The key is knowing the error and adjusting for it.

Every compass, magnetic or gyro has a certain amount of error in it on at least some headings at least some of the time. If it is a good compass, properly maintained, the deviation or gyro error is usually small and often goes unnoticed on short trips. An undetected error of even a degree or two can make quite a difference on a long haul... Gyro error can creep in and disappear without anyone touching the gyro compass. It is a good practice to compare the compass with a known correct bearing frequently. Usually, you find everything is fine, but you might be surprised to learn how often you find some error.

When a ship is at sea, the navigator should determine the gyrocompass error at least once a day; this is required of naval vessels and is desirable on any ship. Over and above this bare minimum the prudent navigator will take advantage of every opportunity to check the accuracy of his gyro. The importance of so doing is emphasized by a grounding case on record where the failure of a ship's gyro went undetected for a period of over twelve hours, with the result that at the time of grounding the vessel was over 110deg off course and more than 200 miles out of position.

short trips...

so if i start on the edge of antartica with a gyroscopic compass, and adjust it there, then ride out, i would still not be able to see the ice wlal?
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: Ski on November 04, 2010, 08:31:29 PM
I would assume it would depend on how often and reliably you adjusted your gyro and how close "the edge of Antarctica" is to the ice wall.
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: berny_74 on November 04, 2010, 08:43:07 PM
I would assume it would depend on how often and reliably you adjusted your gyro and how close "the edge of Antarctica" is to the ice wall.

Gyrocompasses do not work reliable well in the polar regions, north or south.  It is due to the Earth's spin (RET) FET, might have some other argument - but either way Polar regions neither gyro or magnetic compasses work.

Berny
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: vhu9644 on November 04, 2010, 08:44:18 PM
dont the poles spin less fast?

and also, you are not at the poles yet, you are on antartica, not at the pole
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: berny_74 on November 04, 2010, 08:49:47 PM
.
dont the poles spin less fast?

and also, you are not at the poles yet, you are on antartica, not at the pole

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrocompass
There are certain circumstances when magnetic compasses and gyrocompasses are unreliable. The most obvious is in polar regions, where the force exerted on the needle of a magnetic compass is nearly vertical and gyrocompasses become unstable due to the rotation of the Earth. Magnetic compasses are also particularly susceptible to magnetic fields, such as those produced by the hulls of some metal vehicles or craft. Before the advent of electronic navigational aids such as GPS the most reliable way to ascertain north in such circumstances was through the use of an astrocompass.

I am not sure but I believe it is not due to the speed of the rotation but how the plane of rotation in the polar regions affects the gyrocompass.  Lots of info and they nowhere near as simple as I had first thought.

Berny
Letting the cats in
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: vhu9644 on November 04, 2010, 10:16:05 PM
.
dont the poles spin less fast?

and also, you are not at the poles yet, you are on antartica, not at the pole

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrocompass
There are certain circumstances when magnetic compasses and gyrocompasses are unreliable. The most obvious is in polar regions, where the force exerted on the needle of a magnetic compass is nearly vertical and gyrocompasses become unstable due to the rotation of the Earth. Magnetic compasses are also particularly susceptible to magnetic fields, such as those produced by the hulls of some metal vehicles or craft. Before the advent of electronic navigational aids such as GPS the most reliable way to ascertain north in such circumstances was through the use of an astrocompass.

I am not sure but I believe it is not due to the speed of the rotation but how the plane of rotation in the polar regions affects the gyrocompass.  Lots of info and they nowhere near as simple as I had first thought.

Berny
Letting the cats in

KK that makes sense i guess
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: ClockTower on November 05, 2010, 05:45:59 AM
I would assume it would depend on how often and reliably you adjusted your gyro and how close "the edge of Antarctica" is to the ice wall.

Gyrocompasses do not work reliable well in the polar regions, north or south.  It is due to the Earth's spin (RET) FET, might have some other argument - but either way Polar regions neither gyro or magnetic compasses work.

Berny
I believe that problem is actually the deviation from magnetic to geographic poles is greatest near the poles.
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: vhu9644 on November 05, 2010, 01:11:24 PM
I would assume it would depend on how often and reliably you adjusted your gyro and how close "the edge of Antarctica" is to the ice wall.

Gyrocompasses do not work reliable well in the polar regions, north or south.  It is due to the Earth's spin (RET) FET, might have some other argument - but either way Polar regions neither gyro or magnetic compasses work.

Berny
I believe that problem is actually the deviation from magnetic to geographic poles is greatest near the poles.

gyroscopes dont work with magnets, they work with a gyroscope, which resists rotational movement
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: ClockTower on November 05, 2010, 01:27:54 PM
I would assume it would depend on how often and reliably you adjusted your gyro and how close "the edge of Antarctica" is to the ice wall.

Gyrocompasses do not work reliable well in the polar regions, north or south.  It is due to the Earth's spin (RET) FET, might have some other argument - but either way Polar regions neither gyro or magnetic compasses work.

Berny
I believe that problem is actually the deviation from magnetic to geographic poles is greatest near the poles.

gyroscopes dont work with magnets, they work with a gyroscope, which resists rotational movement
Did I say they did?
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: vhu9644 on November 06, 2010, 04:35:32 PM
you said deviation of magnetic fields, implying a  connection with magnets
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: ClockTower on November 06, 2010, 08:34:47 PM
you said deviation of magnetic fields, implying a  connection with magnets

Not really. But they are adjusted based on magnetic compass bearings, right?
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: vhu9644 on November 11, 2010, 02:29:23 AM
yes

and also if the gyroscopic compass was used on a flat earth (they dont spin) then there would be no error in the gyroscopes right?
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: ClockTower on November 11, 2010, 02:35:45 AM
yes

and also if the gyroscopic compass was used on a flat earth (they dont spin) then there would be no error in the gyroscopes right?
1) They would spin, as they have to in order to work.
2) No, they would report that traveling due west (or east) was not a straight line.
3) No, they would report errors in that magnetic north does not match geographic. (On the FE, the magnetic south pole is not well-defined or its error calibrated.)
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 11, 2010, 10:12:17 AM
Quote
No, they would report that traveling due west (or east) was not a straight line.

East and West aren't straight lines on a Round Earth.

If you are on top of a Round Earth, twenty feet from the North Pole and would like to travel Eastwards, where will your path take you?
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: ClockTower on November 11, 2010, 10:15:03 AM
Quote
No, they would report that traveling due west (or east) was not a straight line.

East and West aren't straight lines on a Round Earth.

If you are on top of a Round Earth, twenty feet from the North Pole and would like to travel Eastwards, where will your path take you?
With whom are you arguing?
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: Tom Bishop on November 11, 2010, 12:07:54 PM
You assume that East and West would be in straight lines on a Round Earth. They are not.
Title: Re: gyroscopic compasses?
Post by: ClockTower on November 11, 2010, 12:15:05 PM
You assume that East and West would be in straight lines on a Round Earth. They are not.
Where did I do that? Are you making things up again?