The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Q&A => Topic started by: buka001 on May 10, 2010, 03:04:14 AM

Title: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: buka001 on May 10, 2010, 03:04:14 AM
How do submarines navigate on the FE model?

In the RE model, one method that submarines employ is the use of dead reckoning to navigate their way around. Submarines also utilise bottom contour mapping techniques.

If the model of the earth is incorrect, or unkown, then how is it that submarines were able to navigate reasonably well using these methods?

Surely if the model of the earth is unkown these techniques could never have worked? Submarines would be running aground all the time, or be way off from there intended destinations.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Pongo on May 10, 2010, 03:10:49 AM
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model.  They will guide you correctly if you also assume that that earth is round.  A gross oversimplification -- but a good example to convey the idea -- is if a mapmaker made all her maps with south and north reversed, you would be fine navigating by her maps if you also reversed your north/south directions.

I hope this has cleared some questions up for you.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Catchpa on May 10, 2010, 05:37:54 AM
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model.  They will guide you correctly if you also assume that that earth is round.  A gross oversimplification -- but a good example to convey the idea -- is if a mapmaker made all her maps with south and north reversed, you would be fine navigating by her maps if you also reversed your north/south directions.

I hope this has cleared some questions up for you.

You mean like looking at a map upside-down? Yeah, that's not at all a good comparison.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: buka001 on May 10, 2010, 05:39:37 AM
Oh so I see. A map is made on the assumption the world is round. Submarines follow this map on that assumption. Submarines are able to navigate succesfully using this system.

Therefore this system is working. Therefore this system is correct therefore you agree that the correct model for the earth is round.

Thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Sliver on May 10, 2010, 06:02:50 AM
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model.  They will guide you correctly if you also assume that that earth is round.  A gross oversimplification -- but a good example to convey the idea -- is if a mapmaker made all her maps with south and north reversed, you would be fine navigating by her maps if you also reversed your north/south directions.

I hope this has cleared some questions up for you.
It doesn't work like that.  You can't make an inaccurate map work just by believing the same thing as the person who made it.  If that were so, than I could draw a map where I assume that Los Angeles is only 25 miles from New York City, and as long as someone else assumed the same thing, then it would work. 

Assumptions do not make maps work.  Measured data, on the other hand, does.  This is why FE'ers don't have a map.  They have no measured data, and that is because they are too lazy to go get the data.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: The Question1 on May 10, 2010, 02:15:09 PM
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model. 
Explain how the model is fallacious.
Also,if it assumes the earth is round,and it works,it IS round.
Assuming that you can MAKE a map work is flat out wrong.If i made a map from mybuilding to another,and assuming it is 6 feet apart(which they are not) i can't MAKE it work.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: flyingmonkey on May 11, 2010, 01:19:40 AM
Especially because you can use the sonar map to travel from anywhere to any point, and end up exactly in the right place.

It wouldn't work like that if the map assumed the wrong shape.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Pongo on May 11, 2010, 01:38:45 AM
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model. 
Explain how the model is fallacious.

The earth is flat.


Also, for everyone calling foul with the reversible north/south parallel I drew, here is a link that will clear things up for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: buka001 on May 11, 2010, 02:13:42 AM
Ok If the earth is flat, then why does round the round earth model work?

Your analogy was incorrect as has been demonstrated above.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Mr Pseudonym on May 11, 2010, 04:41:26 AM
Ok If the earth is flat, then why does round the round earth model work?

Your analogy was incorrect as has been demonstrated above.

It doesn't.  However the lies the conspiracy tell to cover the truth are powerfully strong in convincing people like yourself. 
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: markjo on May 11, 2010, 05:03:15 AM
Obviously it does, otherwise submarines (not to mention surface ships) wouldn't be able to navigate the oceans using RE based maps.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Catchpa on May 11, 2010, 06:43:36 AM
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model. 
Explain how the model is fallacious.

The earth is flat.


Circle argument. "The earth is flat because the earth is flat"
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: brathearon on May 11, 2010, 09:15:33 AM
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model.  
Explain how the model is fallacious.

The earth is flat.


Also, for everyone calling foul with the reversible north/south parallel I drew, here is a link that will clear things up for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy


they are saying your analogy isnt right because it uses the same models, but different notation; not different models.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: spanner34.5 on May 11, 2010, 10:46:09 AM
Is anyone certain that submarines even exist?
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: markjo on May 11, 2010, 03:35:56 PM
Is anyone certain that submarines even exist?

I would think that submariners would know for sure.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: The Question1 on May 11, 2010, 03:56:53 PM
Deep Sea SONAR maps were made under the erroneous assumption that the earth is round.  As such, maps were created to conform to this fallacious model. 
Explain how the model is fallacious.

The earth is flat.


Also, for everyone calling foul with the reversible north/south parallel I drew, here is a link that will clear things up for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy

Thats not an explanation,thats you stating something that hasn't been proven as fact.
Also,your analogy clearly doesn't work,as reversing the map does not involve changing the distances of between landmasses and such.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Crustinator on May 11, 2010, 03:58:47 PM
I hope this has cleared some questions up for you.

Also diesel fuel is programmed by The Conspiracy to match the RE map so that you will not notice any fuel variation while traversing the globe.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: buka001 on May 12, 2010, 01:03:09 AM

It doesn't.  However the lies the conspiracy tell to cover the truth are powerfully strong in convincing people like yourself. 

Actually it does work. Submarines and surface ships have been able to navigate succesfully using this method for many years. If they used maps based on an incorrect model, ships and submarines would be crashing into things on an hourly basis. This does not occur. There are no lies here.

The flat earth theorist lies are powerfully strong enough to compel your deficient logic and knowledge to believe them.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Mr Pseudonym on May 12, 2010, 02:54:09 AM

It doesn't.  However the lies the conspiracy tell to cover the truth are powerfully strong in convincing people like yourself. 

Actually it does work. Submarines and surface ships have been able to navigate succesfully using this method for many years. If they used maps based on an incorrect model, ships and submarines would be crashing into things on an hourly basis. This does not occur. There are no lies here.

The flat earth theorist lies are powerfully strong enough to compel your deficient logic and knowledge to believe them.

It just appears to work.  Just as submarines appear to be capable of achieving all kinds of underwater feats.  Of course, submarines are incapable of submerging for long periods of time, if at all in most cases, and when they do submerge, they must rely on their periscope to stay clear of obstacles.  The reason these things don't crash is simply because they can see ahead, much like the boats on the surface.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Pongo on May 12, 2010, 04:25:14 AM

Also,your analogy clearly doesn't work,as reversing the map does not involve changing the distances of between landmasses and such.

That's why I prequalified it as a gross oversimplifacation. In the future please try to read more carefully.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: buka001 on May 12, 2010, 05:54:51 AM

It doesn't.  However the lies the conspiracy tell to cover the truth are powerfully strong in convincing people like yourself. 

Actually it does work. Submarines and surface ships have been able to navigate succesfully using this method for many years. If they used maps based on an incorrect model, ships and submarines would be crashing into things on an hourly basis. This does not occur. There are no lies here.

The flat earth theorist lies are powerfully strong enough to compel your deficient logic and knowledge to believe them.

It just appears to work.  Just as submarines appear to be capable of achieving all kinds of underwater feats.  Of course, submarines are incapable of submerging for long periods of time, if at all in most cases, and when they do submerge, they must rely on their periscope to stay clear of obstacles.  The reason these things don't crash is simply because they can see ahead, much like the boats on the surface.

Do you ever get outside? Have you ever read a book? Do you live in a basement? Your lack of general knowledge is astounding.

What evidence do you have that indicates submarines are incapable of submerging for long periods of time?

Are you aware that if a submarine rises to persicope depth in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, they will see absolutely nothing, but water on all fronts? So how could they navigate using a persicope with no points of reference?

Nuclear submarines are able to remain submerged for months. Their only limiting factor is food for the submariners aboard. They can manufacture water and oxyegn while underwater.

Submarines only go to persicope depth when they are in friendly waters, as a submarine becomes very visible at periscope depth. Modern day radar is able to detect a persicope. Hence the submarine will only rise to persicope depth when it knows it is within friendly waters. This is a CRITICALLY important fact about submarines.

How do they know when they are in friendly waters? Through use of dead reckoning based on maps developed from the round earth model.

The US Navy of the cold war would have loved for you to have been the planner for the Russian Navy. You wouldn't have believed any of the capabilities that US submarines possessed, hence you wouldn't have built your own submarines.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Mr Pseudonym on May 12, 2010, 07:21:32 AM

It doesn't.  However the lies the conspiracy tell to cover the truth are powerfully strong in convincing people like yourself. 

Actually it does work. Submarines and surface ships have been able to navigate succesfully using this method for many years. If they used maps based on an incorrect model, ships and submarines would be crashing into things on an hourly basis. This does not occur. There are no lies here.

The flat earth theorist lies are powerfully strong enough to compel your deficient logic and knowledge to believe them.

It just appears to work.  Just as submarines appear to be capable of achieving all kinds of underwater feats.  Of course, submarines are incapable of submerging for long periods of time, if at all in most cases, and when they do submerge, they must rely on their periscope to stay clear of obstacles.  The reason these things don't crash is simply because they can see ahead, much like the boats on the surface.

Do you ever get outside? Have you ever read a book? Do you live in a basement? Your lack of general knowledge is astounding.

What evidence do you have that indicates submarines are incapable of submerging for long periods of time?

Are you aware that if a submarine rises to persicope depth in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, they will see absolutely nothing, but water on all fronts? So how could they navigate using a persicope with no points of reference?

Nuclear submarines are able to remain submerged for months. Their only limiting factor is food for the submariners aboard. They can manufacture water and oxyegn while underwater.

Submarines only go to persicope depth when they are in friendly waters, as a submarine becomes very visible at periscope depth. Modern day radar is able to detect a persicope. Hence the submarine will only rise to persicope depth when it knows it is within friendly waters. This is a CRITICALLY important fact about submarines.

How do they know when they are in friendly waters? Through use of dead reckoning based on maps developed from the round earth model.

The US Navy of the cold war would have loved for you to have been the planner for the Russian Navy. You wouldn't have believed any of the capabilities that US submarines possessed, hence you wouldn't have built your own submarines.

The whole idea of the cold war was to continue to instigate propaganda into believing one country was technologically superior.  This is part of the reason the moon landings were faked.    Part of the propaganda was gettting people to believe nuclear submarines and the like existed.  Put simply they don't and the submarines you see are not capable of carrying out the feats you suggest. 

And yes I do get outside and I do read books.  For someone like yourself I would recommend Total Cold War by Kenneth Osgood.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: markjo on May 12, 2010, 12:37:28 PM
And yes I do get outside and I do read books.  For someone like yourself I would recommend Total Cold War by Kenneth Osgood.

And I would recommend Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage by Sherry Sontag.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1891620088/artbell00
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: midwestsailor on May 12, 2010, 01:32:07 PM
Wow that means I know two official members of the conspiracy! Two people the I would trust with my life are ex-submariners and they total had me fooled! Do you honestly deny that submarines can't operate underwater for extended periods of time. If so what would keep a submarine from being technologically possible besides not being able to navigate the flat earth?
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: The Question1 on May 12, 2010, 04:55:18 PM

Also,your analogy clearly doesn't work,as reversing the map does not involve changing the distances of between landmasses and such.

That's why I prequalified it as a gross oversimplifacation. In the future please try to read more carefully.
Then you still have not clearly explained your point as to how making a map work is possible.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Pongo on May 12, 2010, 11:10:53 PM
Wow that means I know two official members of the conspiracy! Two people the I would trust with my life are ex-submariners and they total had me fooled! Do you honestly deny that submarines can't operate underwater for extended periods of time. If so what would keep a submarine from being technologically possible besides not being able to navigate the flat earth?


How did your seaman friends know they were actually underwater? 

I imagine that I could build a large object and convince many many people that they were deep underwater by doing nothing more than changing air pressure and occasionally tilting the structure.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Catchpa on May 13, 2010, 05:01:06 AM
Wow that means I know two official members of the conspiracy! Two people the I would trust with my life are ex-submariners and they total had me fooled! Do you honestly deny that submarines can't operate underwater for extended periods of time. If so what would keep a submarine from being technologically possible besides not being able to navigate the flat earth?


How did your seaman friends know they were actually underwater? 

I imagine that I could build a large object and convince many many people that they were deep underwater by doing nothing more than changing air pressure and occasionally tilting the structure.

I'm sure you know how to get submarine into it's own room then, when it was clearly in the water once they first saw and entered it?
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: midwestsailor on May 13, 2010, 10:03:06 AM
Making port in a different location then your launch site would prove to be very difficult if all sub missions are faked.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: markjo on May 13, 2010, 12:34:00 PM
Wow that means I know two official members of the conspiracy! Two people the I would trust with my life are ex-submariners and they total had me fooled! Do you honestly deny that submarines can't operate underwater for extended periods of time. If so what would keep a submarine from being technologically possible besides not being able to navigate the flat earth?


How did your seaman friends know they were actually underwater? 

I imagine that I could build a large object and convince many many people that they were deep underwater by doing nothing more than changing air pressure and occasionally tilting the structure.

You're joking, right?  First of all, subs don't submerge until they are well out to sea.  Secondly, it's rather hard to hide all the simulator equipment in an outdoor harbor.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: flyingmonkey on May 13, 2010, 05:50:44 PM
Wow that means I know two official members of the conspiracy! Two people the I would trust with my life are ex-submariners and they total had me fooled! Do you honestly deny that submarines can't operate underwater for extended periods of time. If so what would keep a submarine from being technologically possible besides not being able to navigate the flat earth?


How did your seaman friends know they were actually underwater? 

I imagine that I could build a large object and convince many many people that they were deep underwater by doing nothing more than changing air pressure and occasionally tilting the structure.


Are you saying if I took a simulator flight across countries, I would actually step out in the country I just flew to on the simulator?

Holy jesus, is this teleportation?
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: buka001 on May 13, 2010, 09:09:33 PM
Nuclear submarines don't exist?

What a joke. By stating that you are merely insulting your own intelligence. You basically illustrate that you are ignorant on a scale that defies belief.

You also insult the human race, implying that even though humans have developed nuclear technology, they somehow are unable to devlope a nuclear submarine.

There are infinite amount of clues that will indicate to a submariner that the are submerged. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this only exposes how deep your cognitive dissonance is and how far you are willing to go to believe in something that even children understand.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Pongo on May 14, 2010, 02:20:36 AM
Are you saying if I took a simulator flight across countries, I would actually step out in the country I just flew to on the simulator?

No.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: spanner34.5 on May 14, 2010, 03:25:37 AM
Are you saying if I took a simulator flight across countries, I would actually step out in the country I just flew to on the simulator?

No.
I totally agree with this. Part of my UK IMC rating was completed on a simulator. It definitely didn't move.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Mr Pseudonym on May 14, 2010, 05:33:19 AM
Nuclear submarines don't exist?

What a joke. By stating that you are merely insulting your own intelligence. You basically illustrate that you are ignorant on a scale that defies belief.

You also insult the human race, implying that even though humans have developed nuclear technology, they somehow are unable to devlope a nuclear submarine.

There are infinite amount of clues that will indicate to a submariner that the are submerged. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this only exposes how deep your cognitive dissonance is and how far you are willing to go to believe in something that even children understand.

When you are well aware of the scale of the conspiracy, you become aware of how ignorant and apathetic most of the population is towards their evil deeds.  Their is no concrete evidence of submarines and what they do, most of what exists is found in fictional works by Tom Clancy.  It is these sort of books and similar movies most people form their ill-informed opinions on.  The large models you may see elsewhere are taken directly from these movies and are incapable of submerging; it is all an exercise in military propoganda to fool other nations. 
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: midwestsailor on May 14, 2010, 06:37:03 AM
Here is one that a college student built.
http://www.vulcaniasubmarine.com/KARL%20STANLEY.htm (http://www.vulcaniasubmarine.com/KARL%20STANLEY.htm)
There are many home built submarines that anyone with a welder and some parts can build. So you are saying that the governments of the world are incapable of building functional submarines? What part of building a submarine is technologically beyond us?
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Mr Pseudonym on May 14, 2010, 08:02:08 AM
Here is one that a college student built.
http://www.vulcaniasubmarine.com/KARL%20STANLEY.htm (http://www.vulcaniasubmarine.com/KARL%20STANLEY.htm)
There are many home built submarines that anyone with a welder and some parts can build. So you are saying that the governments of the world are incapable of building functional submarines? What part of building a submarine is technologically beyond us?
Images taken off some random website can be easily shooped and arranged to look authentic.  Scroll through that site and they freely admit to using CGI.
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: midwestsailor on May 14, 2010, 08:23:30 AM
I missed the part where they said they use CGI. Can you give the quote or tell me where it was?
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: Space Tourist on May 14, 2010, 08:26:12 AM
I missed the part where they said they use CGI. Can you give the quote or tell me where it was?
CGI scripting maybe lolz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGI_script
Title: Re: Submarine Navigation?
Post by: buka001 on May 14, 2010, 09:47:03 PM
Here is one that a college student built.
http://www.vulcaniasubmarine.com/KARL%20STANLEY.htm (http://www.vulcaniasubmarine.com/KARL%20STANLEY.htm)
There are many home built submarines that anyone with a welder and some parts can build. So you are saying that the governments of the world are incapable of building functional submarines? What part of building a submarine is technologically beyond us?
Images taken off some random website can be easily shooped and arranged to look authentic.  Scroll through that site and they freely admit to using CGI.

Your replies have lead me to believe you actually believe the earth is round. You are merely here for a joke.

You are probably a regular lurker of /b.

Either that or you have the mental capacity of a 3 year old.