The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: AmateurAstronomer on September 09, 2008, 07:37:37 AM

Title: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: AmateurAstronomer on September 09, 2008, 07:37:37 AM
I'll admit this is a bad time for a sunspot thread, given that the sun has been sunspot free for a month and two days now, but some will crop up soon enough.

Sunspots on the sun make it's 25 day rotation period visibly apparent. In periods of heavy spotting, a full rotation of spots can be seen, even by amateurs with just box viewers and a lot of patience.

The continuity of the rotation shows that the spots are not just the random generation of directionally traveling phenomena on a flat emitter sun.

Secondly, the visible side of the moon has impact craters. With a flat moon that would be the bottom side, and even with a round moon, it's relative bottom side is still heavily impacted. How could a body like the moon get impact craters on it's bottom side?

Could it be that it's mass influenced other masses? Our flat earth is a sheep though, and the moon is a hen. That explains 100% why our earth's mass wouldn't influence other bodies. Right?
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Xander on September 09, 2008, 08:59:15 AM
Secondly, the visible side of the moon has impact craters. With a flat moon that would be the bottom side, and even with a round moon, it's relative bottom side is still heavily impacted. How could a body like the moon get impact craters on it's bottom side?

Could it be that it's mass influenced other masses? Our flat earth is a sheep though, and the moon is a hen. That explains 100% why our earth's mass wouldn't influence other bodies. Right?

Maybe there are objects magically endlessly accelerating at more than 1g and for some reason, they come from the bottom - and through the 'flat' earth without hitting it and then hit the moon.  Oh and craters on the surface of the earth are from objects in our way that are magically accelerating sideways instead of up or down, thats why meteor showers come down at angles.  Or maybe they were dug out as part of a huge cover-up to hide the fact the Earth is flat and there is no such thing as an impact crater. 

LOL this fun, I should start pretending the Earth is flat, that the governments of the world actually cared enough about what people thought to cover up the fact that the Earth is flat and that I am really just a battery for giant machines and this is all a simulation.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 09, 2008, 10:37:28 AM
I'll admit this is a bad time for a sunspot thread, given that the sun has been sunspot free for a month and two days now, but some will crop up soon enough.

Sunspots on the sun make it's 25 day rotation period visibly apparent. In periods of heavy spotting, a full rotation of spots can be seen, even by amateurs with just box viewers and a lot of patience.

The continuity of the rotation shows that the spots are not just the random generation of directionally traveling phenomena on a flat emitter sun.

Secondly, the visible side of the moon has impact craters. With a flat moon that would be the bottom side, and even with a round moon, it's relative bottom side is still heavily impacted. How could a body like the moon get impact craters on it's bottom side?

Could it be that it's mass influenced other masses? Our flat earth is a sheep though, and the moon is a hen. That explains 100% why our earth's mass wouldn't influence other bodies. Right?

Once again, a post that asked questions for which there is no explanation in FE theory.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: zeroply on September 09, 2008, 03:05:54 PM

Secondly, the visible side of the moon has impact craters. With a flat moon that would be the bottom side, and even with a round moon, it's relative bottom side is still heavily impacted. How could a body like the moon get impact craters on it's bottom side?


How do you know that they're "impact" craters? Maybe they're naturally occurring phenomena more like the Grand Canyon.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: dyno on September 09, 2008, 05:28:25 PM
I believe their opinion is that craters are merely surface textures. Not terrain changes.

Regardless of the ability of moderately powerful telescopes to resolve the crests and troughs on the edge of the moon.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Xander on September 09, 2008, 06:09:26 PM
No erosion on the moon, hence no natural terrain features
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 09, 2008, 06:43:53 PM
I believe their opinion is that craters are merely surface textures. Not terrain changes.

Hmm, kind of like mold on cheese I guess.

What is the difference between "texture" and "terrain changes"?
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: dyno on September 09, 2008, 08:32:12 PM
Texture like those wrapped around 3d models on computers. Just an image.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 10, 2008, 12:12:13 PM
Texture like those wrapped around 3d models on computers. Just an image.

Ah, I was thinking old school.  Something like the texture of sandpaper (rough), suede (soft), or other real thing.  On that basis, texture would have been the same as terrain.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 11, 2008, 09:38:14 AM
I'll admit this is a bad time for a sunspot thread, given that the sun has been sunspot free for a month and two days now, but some will crop up soon enough.

Sunspots on the sun make it's 25 day rotation period visibly apparent. In periods of heavy spotting, a full rotation of spots can be seen, even by amateurs with just box viewers and a lot of patience.

The continuity of the rotation shows that the spots are not just the random generation of directionally traveling phenomena on a flat emitter sun.

Secondly, the visible side of the moon has impact craters. With a flat moon that would be the bottom side, and even with a round moon, it's relative bottom side is still heavily impacted. How could a body like the moon get impact craters on it's bottom side?

Could it be that it's mass influenced other masses? Our flat earth is a sheep though, and the moon is a hen. That explains 100% why our earth's mass wouldn't influence other bodies. Right?

Still no FE response or rebuttal?
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: oldsoldier on September 11, 2008, 11:43:35 AM
it's odd... it's like they've all disappeared.

Anyway... I have a guess as to what their response would be, but I'd really rather hear it from the "horses mouth" so to speak.
 
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: MadDogX on September 11, 2008, 01:47:32 PM
Texture like those wrapped around 3d models on computers. Just an image.

They can be seen to cast shadows at certain times. So if they're just textures, I must insist on Shader Model 3 and some pretty decent normal mapping. Possibly even parallax occlusion mapping.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: AmateurAstronomer on September 11, 2008, 03:29:57 PM

Secondly, the visible side of the moon has impact craters. With a flat moon that would be the bottom side, and even with a round moon, it's relative bottom side is still heavily impacted. How could a body like the moon get impact craters on it's bottom side?

How do you know that they're "impact" craters? Maybe they're naturally occurring phenomena more like the Grand Canyon.
(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5469/cratersiq8.jpg)
The Grand Canyon is forming by water erosion. Can you list any naturally occurring phenomena you feel could cause craters? I can only think of one; meteor(ite)/comet impact.

Also dozens of meteor impacts on the moon (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/images/lunarsporadic/movie760.gif) are visible during the many meteor showers every year, Perseid and Leonid most prominently. I personally have seen 3; 2 during the Perseids, and one lucky one during the Geminids.

I believe their opinion is that craters are merely surface textures. Not terrain changes. Regardless of the ability of moderately powerful telescopes to resolve the crests and troughs on the edge of the moon.

A process that is made much easier by the motions of lunar libration.
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/43e4c2f050605c29cdad3b3e73ec8d3b6g.jpg)
Because of lunar libration we are capable of seeing 59% of the moons surface, and at different angles. Like you say, you can clearly see the crests and troughs.

Texture like those wrapped around 3d models on computers. Just an image.

They can be seen to cast shadows at certain times. So if they're just textures, I must insist on Shader Model 3 and some pretty decent normal mapping. Possibly even parallax occlusion mapping.

If they are of the opinion that it's all just stage dressing, or an elaborate hologram, they should take it to the mad revisionist's (http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm) site. It's more suited for that kind of theorizing. Besides, if it were all stage dressing, then who dressed the stage?
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 12, 2008, 02:30:10 PM
it's odd... it's like they've all disappeared.

Anyway... I have a guess as to what their response would be, but I'd really rather hear it from the "horses mouth" so to speak.
 

I wonder where everyone is.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Dr Eon Phlatamus on September 13, 2008, 10:54:23 PM
For starters ... any body that looks at the sun is going to see spots .... thats a fact

next I would say that ... you said there was one peice of evidence for craters .."meteorites,comets...

thats 2 ... I can boil it down to one if you want ... "Rocks"

does that fit the description?

My theory on what happened is ... When they used to have those catapults (dark ages)

they flung alot of rocks at the moon , because they over engineered it back then.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 13, 2008, 11:07:32 PM
Quote
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5469/cratersiq8.jpg
The Grand Canyon is forming by water erosion. Can you list any naturally occurring phenomena you feel could cause craters? I can only think of one; meteor(ite)/comet impact.

In my opinion the craters on the moon were caused by impacts. At one point in its life the moon faced away from the earth towards space.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Stabler12 on September 14, 2008, 01:47:49 AM
so there was no visible moon in the past? 
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Ski on September 14, 2008, 02:26:44 AM
 ???   In all the years the earth has been around, we know the moon has shown only one face to the earth, how?
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Stabler12 on September 14, 2008, 02:36:22 AM
You don't really...It just seems like there would have been writings or cave drawings of a moon that suddenly went dark for a long period of time....Seeing that the earth isn't that old in FE....one would think that the Bible would have made mention of it.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2008, 03:30:43 AM
so there was no visible moon in the past? 

No. At one point before civilization the moon's face we see was pointed towards space. That's how it got its impact scars.

The face we see turned around to fact the earth due to prolonged uneven meteor collisions or some other mechanism.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: AmateurAstronomer on September 14, 2008, 04:22:34 AM
so there was no visible moon in the past? 

No. At one point before civilization the moon's face we see was pointed towards space. That's how it got its impact scars.

The face we see turned around to fact the earth due to prolonged uneven meteor collisions or some other mechanism.

First off, can you show any kind of proof of that, or are you talking out your arse?

Second off,
Also dozens of meteor impacts on the moon (http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2006/images/lunarsporadic/movie760.gif) are visible during the many meteor showers every year, Perseid and Leonid most prominently. I personally have seen 3; 2 during the Perseids, and one lucky one during the Geminids.

How are bodies continuing to hit the bottom side of the moon then? There was a heavy hit ratio late last month, and a 3 hit within an hour combo was noted by not only Nasa and related space agencies, but by freelance astronomers all along the western hemisphere. I'll find the vid clip.

Why should I trust you Tom, and not people who share my own interest, and actually know a thing or two about them?
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 14, 2008, 04:39:14 PM
In my opinion the craters on the moon were caused by impacts. At one point in its life the moon faced away from the earth towards space.

Well, at least they are finally admitting that there are craters on the Moon.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2008, 08:15:08 PM
Quote
First off, can you show any kind of proof of that, or are you talking out your arse?

If you want proof that the face of the moon has impact scars look up at the moon on any night.

Quote
How are bodies continuing to hit the bottom side of the moon then? There was a heavy hit ratio late last month, and a 3 hit within an hour combo was noted by not only Nasa and related space agencies, but by freelance astronomers all along the western hemisphere. I'll find the vid clip.

Why should I trust you Tom, and not people who share my own interest, and actually know a thing or two about them?

Some bodies still hit the moon's face, sure. If a meteor hits the moon from the side it can hit the moon's visible face.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: markjo on September 14, 2008, 08:21:35 PM
Quote
First off, can you show any kind of proof of that, or are you talking out your arse?

If you want proof that the face of the moon has impact scars look up at the moon on any night.

Quote
How are bodies continuing to hit the bottom side of the moon then? There was a heavy hit ratio late last month, and a 3 hit within an hour combo was noted by not only Nasa and related space agencies, but by freelance astronomers all along the western hemisphere. I'll find the vid clip.

Why should I trust you Tom, and not people who share my own interest, and actually know a thing or two about them?

Some bodies still hit the moon's face, sure. If a meteor hits the moon from the side it can hit the moon's visible face.

If the FE and all of the celestial bodies are accelerating at 9.8m/s2, then how can a meteor hit the moon from the side?  Shouldn't the meteor be accelerating at 9.8m/s2 too?  Or is the UA selective in what it accelerates in a given direction?
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2008, 08:26:23 PM
Quote
If the FE and all of the celestial bodies are accelerating at 9.8m/s2, then how can a meteor hit the moon from the side?  Shouldn't the meteor be accelerating at 9.8m/s2 too?  Or is the UA selective in what it accelerates in a given direction?

Meteors can move side to side because there is some sort of magnetic or gravometric attraction in the heavens which causes bodies to move horizontally. Stars move horizontally across the skies. The sun moves horizontally across the sky over the course of a day. Meteors and comets move horizontally across the sky as well.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: markjo on September 14, 2008, 08:41:49 PM
Quote
If the FE and all of the celestial bodies are accelerating at 9.8m/s2, then how can a meteor hit the moon from the side?  Shouldn't the meteor be accelerating at 9.8m/s2 too?  Or is the UA selective in what it accelerates in a given direction?

Meteors can move side to side because there is some sort of magnetic or gravometric attraction in the heavens which causes bodies to move horizontally. Stars move horizontally across the skies. The sun moves horizontally across the sky over the course of a day. Meteors and comets move horizontally across the sky as well.

Now if only there were a way to model this odd behavior of the various celestial bodies.  Hmm...  I've got it, orbital mechanics.  Oh wait, that doesn't work in FET. 
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2008, 08:48:56 PM
Quote
Now if only there were a way to model this odd behavior of the various celestial bodies.  Hmm...  I've got it, orbital mechanics.  Oh wait, that doesn't work in FET.

The ancients could model and predict the movement of celestial bodies just fine under Flat Earth cosmologies.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: markjo on September 14, 2008, 08:50:58 PM
Quote
Now if only there were a way to model this odd behavior of the various celestial bodies.  Hmm...  I've got it, orbital mechanics.  Oh wait, that doesn't work in FET.

The ancients could model and predict the movement of celestial bodies just fine under Flat Earth cosmologies.

So, when they spotted a comet for the first time, they were able to predict when it would return?
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 14, 2008, 09:46:42 PM
Quote
So, when they spotted a comet for the first time, they were able to predict when it would return?

No. It takes several coordinated observations to predict the path and occurrence of celestial phenomena.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: markjo on September 15, 2008, 05:39:06 AM
Quote
So, when they spotted a comet for the first time, they were able to predict when it would return?

No. It takes several coordinated observations to predict the path and occurrence of celestial phenomena.

So you agree that RE is better at predicting the path and reoccurrence of previously unknown celestial phenomena with fewer observations.  Glad to hear it.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 15, 2008, 08:53:27 AM
No. It takes several coordinated observations to predict the path and occurrence of celestial phenomena.

Yes, it takes about a month's worth of observations for astronomers to model the orbit of a comet.

Apparently, the ancients with their superb observational ability, didn't recognize the periodicity of Halley's Comet until the late 1600s, which was the first comet that had a predicted return date.  Of course, his observations were off by 86 days due to the gravitational influence of Saturn and Jupiter. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Halley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Halley))
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 15, 2008, 06:06:23 PM
Quote
So you agree that RE is better at predicting the path and reoccurrence of previously unknown celestial phenomena with fewer observations.  Glad to hear it.

RE also requires multiple observations to come up with a prediction. Astronomical Parallax, for example, requires two observers on far off places on earth.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: spacemanjones on September 16, 2008, 03:07:04 AM
What about sunspots? what are they Tom? They can be seen with a telescope and a simple solar filter. they clearly rotate around the sun (27 days avg).
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: REmyth on September 16, 2008, 03:27:22 AM
Tom Bishop i must commend you on your rather compelling thoughts about the crater impacts on the moon.

Too bad these RET can't keep an open mind on the subject and see the truth.

quite sad really.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: markjo on September 16, 2008, 05:20:10 AM
Tom Bishop i must commend you on your rather compelling thoughts about the crater impacts on the moon.

Too bad these RET can't keep an open mind on the subject and see the truth.

quite sad really.

That's because we would have to open our minds so wide that our brains would fall out.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 17, 2008, 10:22:43 AM
RE also requires multiple observations to come up with a prediction. Astronomical Parallax, for example, requires two observers on far off places on earth.

That is true.  Fortunately, we have the places called observatories that are spread out across the Earth allowing those observations to be made.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: trig on September 19, 2008, 11:15:54 AM
Quote
Now if only there were a way to model this odd behavior of the various celestial bodies.  Hmm...  I've got it, orbital mechanics.  Oh wait, that doesn't work in FET.

The ancients could model and predict the movement of celestial bodies just fine under Flat Earth cosmologies.
Nobody, ancient or modern, scientific or theocratic, open or close minded, has ever modeled the celestial bodies as if they were on a flat plane above Earth, with the exception of Rowbotham and his followers.

The models where the celestial bodies lie on one or more spherical surfaces existed since the most ancient cultures we know and are useful to predict some movements of celestial objects, with a precision acceptable to astronomers from the dark ages.

The predictions based on a spherical sky cannot, in any possible way, be translated to predictions based on a flat sky.

Tom Bishop, as always, intentionally misreads everything that passes in front of his eyes.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: mightyfletch on September 22, 2008, 07:36:10 AM
I'm going to play devil's advocate about the sunspots.  Sunspots would be considered magnetic eruptions on the Sun like a pot of boiling water, which is not a sphere but has a flat surface.  And magnets don't have to be spheres either, they can be disks with diametric poles.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Dr Matrix on September 22, 2008, 07:47:06 AM
FET (maybe):

- sunspots are smaller, unstable versions of the shadow object...?
- craters on the Moon caused by volcanic activity (?)
- sunspots caused by magnetic fields (internal or external) penetrating the Solar disc?

Nope I can't do that any more.  It's just too much effort [cue: that's what she said].
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: mightyfletch on September 22, 2008, 08:23:36 AM
FET (maybe):

- sunspots are smaller, unstable versions of the shadow object...?
- craters on the Moon caused by volcanic activity (?)
- sunspots caused by magnetic fields (internal or external) penetrating the Solar disc?

Nope I can't do that any more.  It's just too much effort [cue: that's what she said].
AHAHAHAHAA!
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 29, 2008, 01:43:45 AM
No explanation as to the observable rotation of the Sun about its axis based on the observation of sunspots?

in case people have forgotten the original post...

I'll admit this is a bad time for a sunspot thread, given that the sun has been sunspot free for a month and two days now, but some will crop up soon enough.

Sunspots on the sun make it's 25 day rotation period visibly apparent. In periods of heavy spotting, a full rotation of spots can be seen, even by amateurs with just box viewers and a lot of patience.

The continuity of the rotation shows that the spots are not just the random generation of directionally traveling phenomena on a flat emitter sun.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Parsifal on September 29, 2008, 02:03:32 AM
Sunspots are just debris from the Shadow Object that have been pulled away by tidal forces associated with its close orbit about the Sun. As they get dragged inward, conservation of angular momentum causes their orbital period to decrease, until they become close enough to the Sun that they appear to be part of it and are orbiting once every 25 days. They disappear when they finally make contact with the surface of the Sun.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 29, 2008, 03:28:02 AM
Sunspots are just debris from the Shadow Object that have been pulled away by tidal forces associated with its close orbit about the Sun. As they get dragged inward, conservation of angular momentum causes their orbital period to decrease, until they become close enough to the Sun that they appear to be part of it and are orbiting once every 25 days. They disappear when they finally make contact with the surface of the Sun.

Well, at least it is an original explanation.  Still pulled out of your ass, but it is original.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 29, 2008, 08:13:21 AM
Sunspots are just debris from the Shadow Object that have been pulled away by tidal forces associated with its close orbit about the Sun. As they get dragged inward, conservation of angular momentum causes their orbital period to decrease, until they become close enough to the Sun that they appear to be part of it and are orbiting once every 25 days. They disappear when they finally make contact with the surface of the Sun.

Just a few questions about your explanation...

So why can't the shadow object itself be viewed if the debris can be viewed? 

If the shadow object is significantly smaller than the Sun, and this significant amount of debris is being constantly pulled from its surface, why doesn't the shadowed area on the moon change?

What causes the debris to appear larger as it is pulled toward the Sun, away from the observer, when we should only be able appear smaller?

Why isn't the orbit of the debris in the orbital plane of the shadow object?  We can see sunspots across the entire surface of the Sun, and that debris always is moving parallel to the equator of the Sun.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Parsifal on September 29, 2008, 10:03:33 AM
So why can't the shadow object itself be viewed if the debris can be viewed? 

Its orbit is very slightly offset from the Sun's observed equator, and it is far away enough from the Sun that it never passes directly between us and the Sun.

If the shadow object is significantly smaller than the Sun, and this significant amount of debris is being constantly pulled from its surface, why doesn't the shadowed area on the moon change?

There is probably some form of regeneration mechanism. That, or it is changing very slightly over time. Can you prove that lunar eclipses were the same as they are now before writing was invented?

What causes the debris to appear larger as it is pulled toward the Sun, away from the observer, when we should only be able appear smaller?

The distance it is moving away from us is very small compared with its total distance away. When it is slightly closer to us, it is like a speck of dust floating in the air in front of a light bulb - you don't see it. As it moves closer to the Sun, and comes very close to the surface (at which point the solar wind causes it to hover for an extended period of time before getting sucked in by gravitation), it becomes visible as it perfectly eclipses that portion of the Sun.

Why isn't the orbit of the debris in the orbital plane of the shadow object?  We can see sunspots across the entire surface of the Sun, and that debris always is moving parallel to the equator of the Sun.

Electrically charged debris will be pulled to one side by the Sun's magnetic field.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 29, 2008, 11:55:01 PM
Its orbit is very slightly offset from the Sun's observed equator, and it is far away enough from the Sun that it never passes directly between us and the Sun.

But can never be observed even when not in conjunction with the Sun?  Unless it is a perfect black body, which is unknown, it would reflect light and be visible.

How can the debris from the shadow body then move in an orbit that takes it in front of the face of the Sun?

Can you somehow diagram the orbit of the shadow body so that it can create the phases of the Moon, but still not be visible from the surface of the Earth?  If it exists, it should be simple to derive where the shadow body must be.


Quote
There is probably some form of regeneration mechanism. That, or it is changing very slightly over time. Can you prove that lunar eclipses were the same as they are now before writing was invented?

Regeneration of the shadow body?  Can you explain how this might be accomplished?

Only basing our knowledge of written accounts leaves us enough time to have significantly eroded a body that is less than a mile in diameter (it has to be significantly smaller than the Sun or Moon).  This would have created noticeable changes in the shadow projected on the surface of the Moon during all phases, not just during lunar eclipses.


Quote
The distance it is moving away from us is very small compared with its total distance away. When it is slightly closer to us, it is like a speck of dust floating in the air in front of a light bulb - you don't see it. As it moves closer to the Sun, and comes very close to the surface (at which point the solar wind causes it to hover for an extended period of time before getting sucked in by gravitation), it becomes visible as it perfectly eclipses that portion of the Sun.

So this hovering makes it move up and down relative to the surface of the Sun?


Quote
Electrically charged debris will be pulled to one side by the Sun's magnetic field.

So there is variation in the electrical charge of the shadow body that would make its "debris" move north or south relative to the Sun?
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Parsifal on September 30, 2008, 12:03:21 AM
But can never be observed even when not in conjunction with the Sun?  Unless it is a perfect black body, which is unknown, it would reflect light and be visible.

It is too dim compared with the Sun. Atmospheric scattering causes the Sun to always outshine it.

How can the debris from the shadow body then move in an orbit that takes it in front of the face of the Sun?

It becomes small enough to be affected by turbulence in the solar wind, which changes its orbital path.

Can you somehow diagram the orbit of the shadow body so that it can create the phases of the Moon, but still not be visible from the surface of the Earth?  If it exists, it should be simple to derive where the shadow body must be.

It doesn't cause the phases of the moon, only a lunar eclipse. This makes its orbit fairly difficult to predict.

Regeneration of the shadow body?  Can you explain how this might be accomplished?

Perhaps it is made of living material, or - more likely - it picks up matter from somewhere else, perhaps the solar wind.

Only basing our knowledge of written accounts leaves us enough time to have significantly eroded a body that is less than a mile in diameter (it has to be significantly smaller than the Sun or Moon).  This would have created noticeable changes in the shadow projected on the surface of the Moon during all phases, not just during lunar eclipses.

It can't be significantly smaller than the Sun and Moon, or it would never be able to cast a shadow on the full Moon.

So this hovering makes it move up and down relative to the surface of the Sun?

I'm afraid I don't follow you. Why would it do that?

So there is variation in the electrical charge of the shadow body that would make its "debris" move north or south relative to the Sun?

No, but as pieces break off they are struck by particles in the solar wind, which will give some of them a net charge.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 30, 2008, 01:43:57 AM
It doesn't cause the phases of the moon, only a lunar eclipse. This makes its orbit fairly difficult to predict.

So what causes the phases of the Moon?  Eclipses are easy to predict, so it should be easy to chart the course of the body that creates them.

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Perhaps it is made of living material, or - more likely - it picks up matter from somewhere else, perhaps the solar wind.

I would stay away from the living shadow body model if I were you.

If it is picking up material from the Sun, this would make it difficult to remain the black body required for no observation.

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It can't be significantly smaller than the Sun and Moon, or it would never be able to cast a shadow on the full Moon.

What about Tom's flashlight explanation (the shadow puppet on the wall one)?  If the shadow body was of significant size, say planetary, cometary or asteroid, it would be visible like those other bodies.


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I'm afraid I don't follow you. Why would it do that?

Sunspots grow larger and smaller variably.  In order for the changing size to be accounted for by perspective, that would mean the debris is moving up and down.


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No, but as pieces break off they are struck by particles in the solar wind, which will give some of them a net charge.

This doesn't explain the orbit of the debris.  The debris is in an orbit that is determined by the orbit of the shadow body.  The solar wind would energize it, but this would be a gradual process, and the path of the debris would be continually changing.  It wouldn't just "poof" into an orbit and then stay there.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Parsifal on September 30, 2008, 02:34:12 AM
So what causes the phases of the Moon?  Eclipses are easy to predict, so it should be easy to chart the course of the body that creates them.

The same thing as in RET.

I would stay away from the living shadow body model if I were you.

If it is picking up material from the Sun, this would make it difficult to remain the black body required for no observation.

I don't see why.

What about Tom's flashlight explanation (the shadow puppet on the wall one)?  If the shadow body was of significant size, say planetary, cometary or asteroid, it would be visible like those other bodies.

Except that it is too close to the Sun. It is not visible for the same reason that you can't see Mercury or Venus when they appear close to the Sun in the sky; trying would blind you.

Sunspots grow larger and smaller variably.  In order for the changing size to be accounted for by perspective, that would mean the debris is moving up and down.

Their temperature is highly unstable due to being so close to such a hot object. As heat begins to flow into and through them, they begin to expand and contract.

This doesn't explain the orbit of the debris.  The debris is in an orbit that is determined by the orbit of the shadow body.  The solar wind would energize it, but this would be a gradual process, and the path of the debris would be continually changing.  It wouldn't just "poof" into an orbit and then stay there.

Once they are charged, they will repel parts of the solar wind with similar charge and attract parts with opposite charge. The more extreme their charge, the longer it will take for the solar wind to neutralise them, and during this time they get accelerated up or down by the Sun's magnetic field. Once neutralised, they remain in a stable orbit. Thus the sunspots nearest the poles began with a large initial charge (relative to their mass), and those at the equator began with almost no initial charge. If their charge to mass ratio is too large, they will collide with the poles and never appear as sunspots.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 30, 2008, 03:26:04 AM
The same thing as in RET.

The orbit of the Moon around a spherical Earth that changes the lit area of the Moon?  I highly doubt it.

I just don't see this diagram being applied to the FE model...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Lunar-Phase-Diagram.png/360px-Lunar-Phase-Diagram.png)


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I don't see why.

How would the normal matter ejected from the Sun allow the black body that is the shadow object to retain its black body characteristics?


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Except that it is too close to the Sun. It is not visible for the same reason that you can't see Mercury or Venus when they appear close to the Sun in the sky; trying would blind you.

Except during eclipses stars and other bodies near the Sun are visible.  We have been able to eliminate the glare of the Sun and make ground based observations of the solar atmosphere.  Surely that solar atmosphere (corona) is closer to the Sun, and more susceptible to glare, than an orbiting body would.


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Their temperature is highly unstable due to being so close to such a hot object. As heat begins to flow into and through them, they begin to expand and contract.

What would cause them to lose heat as they neared the heat source?  Why would it be unstable?  The Sun's energy is relatively constant.

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Once they are charged, they will repel parts of the solar wind with similar charge and attract parts with opposite charge. The more extreme their charge, the longer it will take for the solar wind to neutralise them, and during this time they get accelerated up or down by the Sun's magnetic field. Once neutralised, they remain in a stable orbit. Thus the sunspots nearest the poles began with a large initial charge (relative to their mass), and those at the equator began with almost no initial charge. If their charge to mass ratio is too large, they will collide with the poles and never appear as sunspots.

The bombardment from the solar wind, which is made up of particles with both charges (protons and electrons), would give equal charge.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Parsifal on September 30, 2008, 03:34:51 AM
The orbit of the Moon around a spherical Earth that changes the lit area of the Moon?  I highly doubt it.

I just don't see this diagram being applied to the FE model...

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/72/Lunar-Phase-Diagram.png/360px-Lunar-Phase-Diagram.png)

When the moon is near the Sun, the far side is lit. When it is far from the Sun, the near side is lit by sunlight that has made a U-turn.

How would the normal matter ejected from the Sun allow the black body that is the shadow object to retain its black body characteristics?

It doesn't need to have perfect black body characteristics.

Except during eclipses stars and other bodies near the Sun are visible.  We have been able to eliminate the glare of the Sun and make ground based observations of the solar atmosphere.  Surely that solar atmosphere (corona) is closer to the Sun, and more susceptible to glare, than an orbiting body would.

This is evidence that during a solar eclipse, the shadow object is behind the Sun.

What would cause them to lose heat as they neared the heat source?  Why would it be unstable?  The Sun's energy is relatively constant.

The Sun would heat them up and they would expand, and then the outer layers (which are made of the least dense materials) would start to vaporise. Then after vaporisation, they would expand again, and then heat up to the point that the outer layers would vaporise.

The bombardment from the solar wind, which is made up of particles with both charges (protons and electrons), would give equal charge.

On average. You would have some with a net positive charge and some with a net negative charge.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 30, 2008, 06:09:40 AM
When the moon is near the Sun, the far side is lit. When it is far from the Sun, the near side is lit by sunlight that has made a U-turn.

But if all of this is happening overhead, we could only see half of the Moon lit at any one time.  In order for there to be a full Moon, the Sun would be between the observer and the Moon.


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It doesn't need to have perfect black body characteristics.

It would have to have better black body charecteristics

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This is evidence that during a solar eclipse, the shadow object is behind the Sun.

Hmm, I am going to have to see a diagram for how the shadow object can be "behind the Sun" as observed from the point of view of the observer in the area of totality, and not be visible through reflected light at other times.
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: dyno on October 02, 2008, 06:54:23 AM
How is this a piece of the shadow object in front of the sun?
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/files/imagecache/news/files/20080523_sun_surface.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2011/life-doesnt-need-a-special-star&h=326&w=300&sz=39&hl=en&start=4&um=1&usg=__AV599ZCioLn9YDDJPp3QEmVRgqA=&tbnid=6NbF-IZWXj30RM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsun%2Bimage%2Bsurface%2Bcloseup%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3D1Kj%26sa%3DN (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/files/imagecache/news/files/20080523_sun_surface.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2011/life-doesnt-need-a-special-star&h=326&w=300&sz=39&hl=en&start=4&um=1&usg=__AV599ZCioLn9YDDJPp3QEmVRgqA=&tbnid=6NbF-IZWXj30RM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsun%2Bimage%2Bsurface%2Bcloseup%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3D1Kj%26sa%3DN)

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/Sunspot-group_l.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/3311171.html&h=480&w=640&sz=88&hl=en&start=3&um=1&usg=__PfI0uozlO67zH6_7J24a1x21Y9c=&tbnid=JbLhyNkODAYQcM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsunspot%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/Sunspot-group_l.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/3311171.html&h=480&w=640&sz=88&hl=en&start=3&um=1&usg=__PfI0uozlO67zH6_7J24a1x21Y9c=&tbnid=JbLhyNkODAYQcM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsunspot%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN)

Swedish telescope. They dont look like space floaties to me
Title: Re: Sun spots, and craters on the moon.
Post by: Parsifal on October 02, 2008, 09:53:51 AM
How is this a piece of the shadow object in front of the sun?
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/files/imagecache/news/files/20080523_sun_surface.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2011/life-doesnt-need-a-special-star&h=326&w=300&sz=39&hl=en&start=4&um=1&usg=__AV599ZCioLn9YDDJPp3QEmVRgqA=&tbnid=6NbF-IZWXj30RM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsun%2Bimage%2Bsurface%2Bcloseup%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3D1Kj%26sa%3DN (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/files/imagecache/news/files/20080523_sun_surface.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/2011/life-doesnt-need-a-special-star&h=326&w=300&sz=39&hl=en&start=4&um=1&usg=__AV599ZCioLn9YDDJPp3QEmVRgqA=&tbnid=6NbF-IZWXj30RM:&tbnh=118&tbnw=109&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsun%2Bimage%2Bsurface%2Bcloseup%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3D1Kj%26sa%3DN)

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/Sunspot-group_l.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/3311171.html&h=480&w=640&sz=88&hl=en&start=3&um=1&usg=__PfI0uozlO67zH6_7J24a1x21Y9c=&tbnid=JbLhyNkODAYQcM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsunspot%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://media.skyandtelescope.com/images/Sunspot-group_l.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/3311171.html&h=480&w=640&sz=88&hl=en&start=3&um=1&usg=__PfI0uozlO67zH6_7J24a1x21Y9c=&tbnid=JbLhyNkODAYQcM:&tbnh=103&tbnw=137&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsunspot%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN)

Swedish telescope. They dont look like space floaties to me

It looks to me like there is something obscuring the light coming from the Sun. That something is a piece of the Shadow Object.