The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: Josef on August 16, 2008, 03:01:54 PM

Title: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Josef on August 16, 2008, 03:01:54 PM
Lets see if I got this right. I bet I dont.. :)

The earth is accelerated. This means its moving. Because it has been accelerating with around 9.8 meters per second for a very long time it means it now moves really fast. It cant move faster than light. So it moves almost as fast as light. Moving mass affects spacetime and warps it. So earth warps spacetime. A lot.

Does this mean that we on earth experience; Both the acceleration, AND the massive gravitational effect from the warped spacetime? What is the total effect?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 16, 2008, 03:05:21 PM
gravitation is acceleration.
Imagine rolling a ball down a hill that gets steeper and steeper
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Josef on August 16, 2008, 03:12:36 PM
gravitation is acceleration.
Imagine rolling a ball down a hill that gets steeper and steeper

What does that change? The ball would eventually go near lightspeed..
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 16, 2008, 03:15:04 PM
Whats wrong with a ball going lightspeed?  You have something against balls?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Josef on August 16, 2008, 03:17:32 PM
Whats wrong with a ball going lightspeed?  You have something against balls?

:)
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Allayna on August 16, 2008, 03:48:56 PM
Whats wrong with a ball going light speed?  You have something against balls?

errr... because an object cannot hit light speed
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 16, 2008, 04:01:16 PM
It would go near lightspeed alright but as it got closer and closer to lightspeed its mass would increase so it would need more and more energy to continue to accelerate
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: sokarul on August 16, 2008, 04:31:49 PM
gravitation is acceleration.
Imagine rolling a ball down a hill that gets steeper and steeper
Sorry, gravitation is not acceleration.  That argument was owned. 

Also, people are starting to not like this statment.
It would go near lightspeed alright but as it got closer and closer to lightspeed its mass would increase so it would need more and more energy to continue to accelerate
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 16, 2008, 04:35:20 PM
gravitation is acceleration.
Imagine rolling a ball down a hill that gets steeper and steeper
Sorry, gravitation is not acceleration.  That argument was owned. 

Also, people are starting to not like this statment.
It would go near lightspeed alright but as it got closer and closer to lightspeed its mass would increase so it would need more and more energy to continue to accelerate

Just because they do not like it does not make it any less true. And gravitation is acceleration, but acceleration is not gravitation
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: sokarul on August 16, 2008, 04:39:23 PM
gravitation is acceleration.
Imagine rolling a ball down a hill that gets steeper and steeper
Sorry, gravitation is not acceleration.  That argument was owned. 

Also, people are starting to not like this statment.
It would go near lightspeed alright but as it got closer and closer to lightspeed its mass would increase so it would need more and more energy to continue to accelerate

Just because they do not like it does not make it any less true. And gravitation is acceleration, but acceleration is not gravitation
here

E=gmc^2
g=gamma

I can rearrange the equation to

E=mgc^2
now as velocity increases, the speed of light squared increases, mass stays the same. 

Seriously, gravitation is not acceleration.  Gravitation causes objects to accelerate. 
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 16, 2008, 04:49:18 PM
gravitation is acceleration.
Imagine rolling a ball down a hill that gets steeper and steeper
Sorry, gravitation is not acceleration.  That argument was owned. 

Also, people are starting to not like this statment.
It would go near lightspeed alright but as it got closer and closer to lightspeed its mass would increase so it would need more and more energy to continue to accelerate

Just because they do not like it does not make it any less true. And gravitation is acceleration, but acceleration is not gravitation
here

E=gmc^2
g=gamma

I can rearrange the equation to

E=mgc^2
now as velocity increases, the speed of light squared increases, mass stays the same. 

Seriously, gravitation is not acceleration.  Gravitation causes objects to accelerate. 
Mass does indeed increase: m= m0/[sqrt(1-v2/c2)]=(lambda)m0
Where m0 is the rest mass

the only equation that I can think of off the top of my head that would use gamma is the formula for calculating the Kinetic energy of an object, but the reason that the mass does not change in that equation is because you only use the rest mass in it

And to keep it simple gravitation is acceleration if people want to nitpick that is up to them but I will stick with what is simple to think about
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: sokarul on August 16, 2008, 05:02:23 PM
gravitation is acceleration.
Imagine rolling a ball down a hill that gets steeper and steeper
Sorry, gravitation is not acceleration.  That argument was owned. 

Also, people are starting to not like this statment.
It would go near lightspeed alright but as it got closer and closer to lightspeed its mass would increase so it would need more and more energy to continue to accelerate

Just because they do not like it does not make it any less true. And gravitation is acceleration, but acceleration is not gravitation
here

E=gmc^2
g=gamma

I can rearrange the equation to

E=mgc^2
now as velocity increases, the speed of light squared increases, mass stays the same. 

Seriously, gravitation is not acceleration.  Gravitation causes objects to accelerate. 
Mass does indeed increase: m= m0/[sqrt(1-v2/c2)]=(lambda)m0
Where m0 is the rest mass

the only equation that I can think of off the top of my head that would use gamma is the formula for calculating the Kinetic energy of an object, but the reason that the mass does not change in that equation is because you only use the rest mass in it

And to keep it simple gravitation is acceleration if people want to nitpick that is up to them but I will stick with what is simple to think about
The equation you quoted is from E=gammamc^2.  Some people use M to equal gamma*m. 
gamma= 1/sqr(1-(v^2/C^2) which is what you posted.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 16, 2008, 05:06:34 PM
not what I posted but you are getting closer to calculating the KE of an object, just add in the rest mass multiplied by c2 before you divide and you are most of the way there
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: sokarul on August 16, 2008, 05:20:43 PM
not what I posted but you are getting closer to calculating the KE of an object, just add in the rest mass multiplied by c2 before you divide and you are most of the way there
KE is not total energy.  KE=1/2mv^2.   No rest mass involved. 

What you stated is what I said it was, relativistic mass. 
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 16, 2008, 05:41:44 PM
not what I posted but you are getting closer to calculating the KE of an object, just add in the rest mass multiplied by c2 before you divide and you are most of the way there
KE is not total energy.  KE=1/2mv^2.   No rest mass involved. 

What you stated is what I said it was, relativistic mass. 
So you are out to prove that an objects rest mass stays the same? why go to the trouble
And check your substitutions there

You should end up with E=gc2
Which says the same thing, mass increases. You are just now using the relativistic mass term instead of the rest mass where is the confusion?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: sokarul on August 16, 2008, 06:48:11 PM
not what I posted but you are getting closer to calculating the KE of an object, just add in the rest mass multiplied by c2 before you divide and you are most of the way there
KE is not total energy.  KE=1/2mv^2.   No rest mass involved. 

What you stated is what I said it was, relativistic mass. 
So you are out to prove that an objects rest mass stays the same? why go to the trouble
And check your substitutions there

You should end up with E=gc2
Which says the same thing, mass increases. You are just now using the relativistic mass term instead of the rest mass where is the confusion?

What????????

E=gammamc^2 is the equation.  For low speeds, gamma is 1.  1*2=2*1 so I can rearrange it to E=mgc^2 if I wanted.  E=gc^2 isn't an equation. 

Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 16, 2008, 07:11:08 PM
not what I posted but you are getting closer to calculating the KE of an object, just add in the rest mass multiplied by c2 before you divide and you are most of the way there
KE is not total energy.  KE=1/2mv^2.   No rest mass involved. 

What you stated is what I said it was, relativistic mass. 
So you are out to prove that an objects rest mass stays the same? why go to the trouble
And check your substitutions there

You should end up with E=gc2
Which says the same thing, mass increases. You are just now using the relativistic mass term instead of the rest mass where is the confusion?

What????????

E=gammamc^2 is the equation.  For low speeds, gamma is 1.  1*2=2*1 so I can rearrange it to E=mgc^2 if I wanted.  E=gc^2 isn't an equation. 


How do you just add terms to one side of the equation and not to the other side?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: basketballsareflat on August 16, 2008, 08:02:35 PM
man the earth is round. stfu
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Dark Knight on August 16, 2008, 11:26:19 PM
Ok, simple question,  Gravitation is caused by our constante Acceleration, and I read in another foram that air resistance and contact with the earth hold us in place.  Then wouldn't it be really really windy?  Or since we have a dome over us holding the air in then, if I were to let a balloon float, wouldn't it come crashing down since the earth accelerated into it?  How come we don't fly into the moon?  How did the Jap's in world war 2 use the jetstream to float high altitude balloons to fly east to drop bombs onto the US.  Was the 12 year old that sailed around the world in on this conspiricy?  Is the entire universe accelerating in the same direction and at the same speed?  What is behind us as we Fly in the direction we are going.  And my 8 year old wants to know if you have any pictures of the 150 foot Ice walls that are around the entire world and how deep do these sheets of Ice go.  Wouldn't currents cause some ice to jam up on the sides?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Josef on August 17, 2008, 03:39:14 AM
It would go near lightspeed alright but as it got closer and closer to lightspeed its mass would increase so it would need more and more energy to continue to accelerate

That is my concern. Wouldn't the earths warp of timespace by now be pretty intense?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Parsifal on August 17, 2008, 04:16:34 AM
The idiocy in this thread is overwhelming. I think we just overtook Myspace as the dumbest place on the World Wide Web.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: interstellarsphere on August 17, 2008, 04:43:02 AM
The idiocy in this thread is overwhelming. I think we just overtook Myspace as the dumbest place on the World Wide Web.

Wow a true statement from a FE'er..
a FE website being the dumbest place on the net...you and I do agree there Robosteve
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Josef on August 17, 2008, 05:52:00 AM
The idiocy in this thread is overwhelming. I think we just overtook Myspace as the dumbest place on the World Wide Web.

So why are you here?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Trekky0623 on August 17, 2008, 06:00:38 AM
Ok, simple question,  Gravitation is caused by our constante Acceleration, and I read in another foram that air resistance and contact with the earth hold us in place.  Then wouldn't it be really really windy?  Or since we have a dome over us holding the air in then, if I were to let a balloon float, wouldn't it come crashing down since the earth accelerated into it?  How come we don't fly into the moon?  How did the Jap's in world war 2 use the jetstream to float high altitude balloons to fly east to drop bombs onto the US.  Was the 12 year old that sailed around the world in on this conspiricy?  Is the entire universe accelerating in the same direction and at the same speed?  What is behind us as we Fly in the direction we are going.  And my 8 year old wants to know if you have any pictures of the 150 foot Ice walls that are around the entire world and how deep do these sheets of Ice go.  Wouldn't currents cause some ice to jam up on the sides?

WTF?  No.

Earth accelerates and pushes everything up, including air.  FUCK.  Come on, it's not that hard.  When you're in a car, is the air inside the car windy?  NO.  As for the balloon, balloons float because of bouyancy.  The balloon will float in air and accelerate though the air upwards.  Read up on the Equivalence Principle.  Acceleration and Gravitation are indistinguishable.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: sokarul on August 17, 2008, 08:42:06 AM
not what I posted but you are getting closer to calculating the KE of an object, just add in the rest mass multiplied by c2 before you divide and you are most of the way there
KE is not total energy.  KE=1/2mv^2.   No rest mass involved. 

What you stated is what I said it was, relativistic mass. 
So you are out to prove that an objects rest mass stays the same? why go to the trouble
And check your substitutions there

You should end up with E=gc2
Which says the same thing, mass increases. You are just now using the relativistic mass term instead of the rest mass where is the confusion?

What????????

E=gammamc^2 is the equation.  For low speeds, gamma is 1.  1*2=2*1 so I can rearrange it to E=mgc^2 if I wanted.  E=gc^2 isn't an equation. 


How do you just add terms to one side of the equation and not to the other side?

I never added terms. 
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Josef on August 17, 2008, 09:07:55 AM
How about the massive warp? Why aren't we turning into a black hole?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Jack on August 17, 2008, 09:18:11 AM
Why aren't we turning into a black hole?
Because our mass isn't large enough.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Josef on August 17, 2008, 09:48:34 AM
Why aren't we turning into a black hole?
Because our mass isn't large enough.

So, we aren't moving at near lightspeed?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Jack on August 17, 2008, 09:58:26 AM
Yes, we are.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 17, 2008, 09:58:52 AM
Yes, we are.

Relative to what?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Parsifal on August 17, 2008, 10:24:46 AM
Yes, we are.

Relative to what?

Anything moving at near light speed relative to us. This applies to the RE model, too.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 17, 2008, 10:30:18 AM
Yes, we are.

Relative to what?

Anything moving at near light speed relative to us. This applies to the RE model, too.

Anything moving at near light speed relative to us would make us not moving at all?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Jack on August 17, 2008, 10:32:13 AM
Relative to what?
Relative to a stationary observer outside of our Earth's accelerating reference frame.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 17, 2008, 10:35:59 AM
Relative to what?
Relative to a stationary observer outside of our Earth's accelerating reference frame.

Hmmm...so how fast is the earth moving right now if we have been accelerating for 4.5 billion years?  Using your same reference point.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Jack on August 17, 2008, 10:37:51 AM
Very fast, under the speed of light.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 17, 2008, 10:44:14 AM
Interesting.  How about this question using the same reference point how far have we traveled in those 4.5 billion years?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Jack on August 17, 2008, 10:51:22 AM
Very far from where we started accelerating.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 17, 2008, 10:53:59 AM
Very far indeed.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Parsifal on August 17, 2008, 10:56:31 AM
Approximately ct.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Josef on August 17, 2008, 12:46:21 PM
Many of you guys know a lot more about these things than I do, thats why Im asking..

Is the Earth causing massive timespace warp or not?
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: phonicboom on August 17, 2008, 05:35:35 PM
Ok I spot the obvious flaw in many threads that people come in with "Facts";

'nothing can go faster than light'
'this mathematical formula says'
'physics says this' 'Einstein said'
..... and so on.

Well what do you say? Stop trying to wrap RE theories around FE - It don't fit, there is your problem :)

Mathematics is not real, it was made to fit a model, that model is wrong. Start again with new formulas that fit FE and you'll see they fit.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: dyno on August 17, 2008, 05:51:19 PM
Many of you guys know a lot more about these things than I do, thats why Im asking..

Is the Earth causing massive timespace warp or not?

Yes
Traveling at relativistic speeds for the age of the Earth, it's probably that the universe outside our frame of reference has experienced heat death. Time dilation.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: oka nieba on August 17, 2008, 05:53:14 PM
Yes but you can do that with anything, you can fit a model around a theory that earth is shaped like dean martin's face and if people read it, it will make sense. . . .
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Dark Knight on August 17, 2008, 10:30:19 PM
you can call us dumb or whatever but you are the guys that think that the world it flat.  I mean really, you honestly think this.  What is holding the atmosphere on this flying flat disc?  I keep asking about simple things like how come the water isn't pushed away from the center and too the sides from all this acceleration and you keep saying that if I was in a car and it was moving the air around me is moving too, so a balloon wouldn't move to the back of the car.  Well this flat earth isn't in a car it is flying through space, if everything is going the same direction at the exact same speed, why do we have meteor showers, they should be moving the same speed in the same direction too. 
Why haven't all the water in the oceans been pushed up against the outsides of the flat earth and we should have a huge dry land mass in the middle. 
If the mass of the moon and sun are different then the mass of the earth, and their mass increase as they speed towards the speed of light, shouldn't the variance cause one to slow down?  Wouldn't there be some sort of visual difference that would occur quite quickly and on a regular basis? 
How do comets work if they appear to come towards us, then away again, and then turn around and come back in a very predictable orbit.  They should be going the same direction as we are and be in the same position. 
How does the space station stay in orbit?  I can go out in my back yard and see it through my telescope all the time.  I have taken photos of it, with the shuttle attached to it and without.  Again, not trying to tick anybody off because this is entertaining, but come on.


Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Parsifal on August 18, 2008, 03:27:26 AM
this is entertaining

Agreed.
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Josef on August 19, 2008, 06:23:46 AM
you are the guys that think that the world it flat.  I mean really, you honestly think this.

Naah. I think most FE'ers just choose to stay in that universe, to explore it and have fun..
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: Josef on August 19, 2008, 06:24:20 AM
Many of you guys know a lot more about these things than I do, thats why Im asking..

Is the Earth causing massive timespace warp or not?

Yes
Traveling at relativistic speeds for the age of the Earth, it's probably that the universe outside our frame of reference has experienced heat death. Time dilation.

Cool..
Title: Re: Acceleration causes gravitational effect?
Post by: phonicboom on August 25, 2008, 07:30:19 PM
ok guys!

Physicists have 'solved' mystery of levitation (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1559579/Physicists-have-%27solved%27-mystery-of-levitation.html)

meaning, as i see it, that gravity is a quality of matter not a force caused by mass or spin. So the earth may well be flat :-O