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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Dionysios on April 16, 2006, 06:52:13 PM

Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on April 16, 2006, 06:52:13 PM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on April 16, 2006, 07:29:55 PM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: mbczion on April 26, 2006, 01:31:06 PM
Yesterday was Holocaust Memorial day here in Israel.  Remeber the victims of the Nazis :cry:

Never again :!:
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: troubadour on April 26, 2006, 03:26:10 PM
how is this "alternative science?"   are you guys just going against the truth just to go against it?
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Erasmus on April 26, 2006, 03:37:09 PM
Quote from: "troubadour"
how is this "alternative science?"   are you guys just going against the truth just to go against it?


If by "you guys" you mean, "Dionysios", then yes, that seems like a very likely explanation for just about all his behavior ever.

-Erasmus
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: troubadour on April 26, 2006, 04:53:23 PM
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "troubadour"
how is this "alternative science?"   are you guys just going against the truth just to go against it?


If by "you guys" you mean, "Dionysios", then yes, that seems like a very likely explanation for just about all his behavior ever.

-Erasmus




seems like a cry for attention, or to stand out somehow.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: troubadour on April 26, 2006, 05:05:21 PM
BTW, Arthur R. Butz is known as a quack in the history world, i would know i'm part of it. His only credentials as a historian are that he sits on the board of The Journal of Historical Review, who are the self-proclaimed, "world's leading Holocaust denial organisation." The very way the IHR go about their "research" and coming to their conclusions is horrid. They come to conclusions first, then find(or fabricate) historical evidence to lend to their conclusions. The complete OPPOSITE way to analyze history. The editorial board of the Journal of American History(an acutally reputable historical journal) wrote, "We all abhor, on both moral and scholarly grounds, the substantive arguments of the Institute for Historical Review. We reject their claims to be taken seriously as historians." (Journal of American History, Vol 80, No. 3, p1213).

Flat out, this is bunk. To believe it, it to believe the rantings of a bigoted and anti-semite organization.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Erasmus on April 26, 2006, 05:19:40 PM
Quote from: "troubadour"
BTW, Arthur R. Butz is known as a quack in the history world, i would know i'm part of it. ...
Flat out, this is bunk. To believe it, it to believe the rantings of a bigoted and anti-semite organization.


Agreed.  I've read a bit of Butz's work, and I find it totally unsupported by proper methodology; and I have no institutional background in history that somebody might say is biasing my opinion.

-Erasmus
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: troubadour on April 27, 2006, 05:31:33 AM
Quote from: "Erasmus"
Quote from: "troubadour"
BTW, Arthur R. Butz is known as a quack in the history world, i would know i'm part of it. ...
Flat out, this is bunk. To believe it, it to believe the rantings of a bigoted and anti-semite organization.


Agreed.  I've read a bit of Butz's work, and I find it totally unsupported by proper methodology; and I have no institutional background in history that somebody might say is biasing my opinion.

-Erasmus



Fair enough then. I also agree with you, as someone who has been "Biased by the institution". I am a Graduate Student at The University of Massachusetts. History with a Focus on the Middle Ages. My undergrad was at Loyola in New Orleans, also in History. I figured it was time to go from a right-wing to a left-wing school, just for good balance. For the record I sit somewhere in the middle.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Marshy on April 27, 2006, 05:56:15 AM
i say its much ado about nothing. this guy wrote reams and reams of nothing
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Erasmus on April 27, 2006, 12:20:53 PM
Quote from: "troubadour"
Fair enough then. I also agree with you, as someone who has been "Biased by the institution".


Just so I'm not misunderstood, I was in no way accusing anybody of being biased.  I simply acknowledge that, since every reputable historian says that Butz is a loon, people like Dionysios might say that such historians are all biased, or have vested interest in defending the lie.

I however have no formal historical training and no stake in an organization whose business is the study of history, so no such accusation can be made against me.

My experience with formal education tells me that it only installs bias in people who would have had some other bias installed in them anyway, had they not had that particular formal education.

-Erasmus
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: killervenom47 on April 27, 2006, 02:19:59 PM
I decided not to read it, but from your posts, I'm guessing that it's saying the Holocast never happened.
Am I right?
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Erasmus on April 27, 2006, 02:25:29 PM
Quote from: "killervenom47"
I decided not to read it, but from your posts, I'm guessing that it's saying the Holocast never happened.
Am I right?


Something like that.  It claims that the numbers were much smaller than are claimed nowadays, and that it was never a centrally organized effort.  For a quick summary, Wikipedia has an article about "Holocaust denial" or something like that.

-Erasmus
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: killervenom47 on April 27, 2006, 03:01:37 PM
Well, if the numbers aren't what they say they are, what happened to all the people who aren't here anymore? Did they commit suicide and fall into a pit of lava? What?
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Marshy on April 27, 2006, 04:02:01 PM
seeing as how it has 15306 words, i dont feel like looking through to find out. whoever wrote this should say it to a survivors face and explain the number tatooed on their arm.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Erasmus on April 27, 2006, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: "killervenom47"
Well, if the numbers aren't what they say they are, what happened to all the people who aren't here anymore? Did they commit suicide and fall into a pit of lava? What?


Heh.  Interestingly, the basis of his argument is, "Look: there's still some Jews around.  Therefore the Nazis didn't exterminate them."

I would assume he's claiming that both | { people killed by Nazis } | and | { civilians not around any more all of a sudden after WWII } | have been exaggerated.

-Erasmus
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: killervenom47 on April 28, 2006, 10:12:52 AM
Ahhh, I see.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 03, 2006, 02:27:00 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: troubadour on May 03, 2006, 07:25:48 AM
Quote from: "Dionysios"
To the ivory tower critic (troubador),

Although, this post drew no replies for a while, I see it has generated some discussion since I last viewed it.  

  Erasmus, I thank you for the objective comments.  Although you disagree with my position and I do not agree with all your posts, you have been rather fair in your portayal of my postion.  In particular, you have made reference to the text in question, something I fail to see from troubador's comments.

  troubador, for someone who claims to be a graduate historian, it seems to me your credentials are badges of shame.  You have not made any comments to the text I posted, but only degrading comments about myself and Butz.  Thanks for your "authoritative" rebuttal which I could of picked up off the street without having to go to a prestigious university, ad nauseum, et cetera.

  By the way, Butz is not a history professor himself (yet he's better than you by long shot), but teaches on his specialty which is in the Department of Engineering.  By the "history world" do you mean biased western academia with government (including CIA and a host of neo-conservative organizations)
agencies and organizations recruiting on major campuses nationwide (especially up there in the Ivy League area where you're from, MR. Know-it-all) or do you mean you're own stubborn opinions.  Certainly you do not mean the opinions of the islamic world or eastern europe in which regions I have travelled in these areas on multiple occasions and find it more common than not to meet people who disbelieve in the holocaust from these areas.  

  As to why this is in the alternative science category, the evidence within this website indicates you are a lazy researcher who speaks before he knows any facts.  I earlier asked Cinlef (under the genetic races superior post)(since he is not only a moderator but the individual on this website who has so far posted the most on this topic other than myself, albeit from the contrary position) whether he thought a post on this topic should be under 'Everything Else' or some other category and he indicated 'Alternative Science' (presumably due to the gas chamber aspect of the issue).  So with respect to his reply, I have posted this under the Alternative Science category.  It actually was my idea before asking him to have posted this in the 'Everything Else' category as the topic certainly touches on considerably more than just the mythical gas chambers.

  troubador's claims of college, et cetera mean not a damnable thing to me.  They seem only to have washed his brain.  I am interested in knowledge and truth.  These are what are close to my heart.  this puffed-up ignoramus has so far only dispensed put-downs and self-praise.

  If troubador actually wants to have something even in the direction towards a discussion which makes progress on the topic (which is doubtful, judging by his bias and the content of his replies), then my recommendation is he make a remark reguarding the bloody content of the text I posted (pun intended).

- Dionysios


I didn't bother doing a formal critque of Butz because it's not worth my time. You believe the rantings of a crazed anti-semite, I'll believe everyone else. Differing opinions of events are one thing, but completely rewriting history to fit your vison of it is another. Credentials are important when you try to do something like rewrite history, and Butz simply doesn't have any. And despite what you think about academic historians, we are taught to interprate history from as much of a non-biased view as possible. But more then that, just like other conspiracies theorists about events like the JFK assassination, the moon landing, Area 51, etc, Butz ignores the massive amount of evidence against his theory. That is why he is a bad historian, not really because of any lack of credientials.

And yes, I do tend to put people in their place from time to time. But that's what happens when you start talking about something without knowing fully what you are talking about. If you want to sit here on your board and spew your pseudo-science and malformed conspiracy theories go ahead. But when people come to set the record straight don't act surprised if they tend to put you down for the garbage you believe.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 03, 2006, 08:25:07 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: troubadour on May 03, 2006, 08:31:08 AM
Quote from: "Dionysios"
As far as I can see you're an ignorant man and your last reply did nothing to change that.

- Dionysios


I guess the credibility of the person behind the theory means nothing to you. Also, it's not my problem if you take critizism personally, that's a flaw in your own character.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 05, 2006, 06:58:20 PM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Tranquil on May 06, 2006, 04:44:38 PM
I have read through this (albiet out of boredom, sue me)

I find it entirely possible that the numbers have been inflated, but at the same time I do not have access to records of Jewish Faith Population before WWII.

I know that the Holocaust personally happened, because a fine woman and mother I know survived the Holocaust on the French Front.  Her brother was in the French Rebellion and she was a captured Jew.  Even in her old age she still has scars.

So in short, my question is:  The overall conclusion that you present, is it that the Holocaust (extermination of the Jews) didn't happen merely out of symantics.  Rather, that since all Jews were not exterminated the word "Holocaust" cannot be used?  Records show that Concentration Camps existed and many German Soldiers and Jewish Prisoners have testimony that match.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Gustave5436 on May 06, 2006, 05:10:11 PM
Why does anyone deny the holocaust at all?  How do they explain the dissappearance of 6 million Jews, and millions of Poles, Slavs, Soviet POWs, etc.?
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: bullhorn on May 07, 2006, 04:20:06 PM
I never understood why this is even debatable. the notion that it did not happen is rediculous.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 07, 2006, 11:49:12 PM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Gustave5436 on May 08, 2006, 12:39:47 AM
the figures during the war were probably not missing 6 million people as we did not find out the full extent of the Nazi genocide until after the war.  By 1951, one would expect a somewhat accurate deathtoll, and thus new publications with a diminished Jewish populations would be accounting for that data.

I don't see the benefit in using the word 'Zionist'.  Zionists are people who believe the Jews should go back to Israel or something.  what does that have to do with people dying in WW2?

We know the deathcamps killed people.  We have some air reconassiance photographs showing the furnaces and gas chambers on them.

It is fact that the Nazis had a 'euthanasia' program for the disabled.  How is it hard to imagine this would be extended to the deathcamps, in order to kill homosexuals, atheists, freemasons, political dissidents, Gypsies, Jews, Slavs, Poles, and Soviet POWs?

and there were some deathcamps outside of the post-war Warsaw pact.  A small one was set up in Italy late in the war., for example.  True, most were in Poland.  But, if the deathcamps were said to be in Soviet territory, why would they not say deathcamps were in Czechoslavaki, or Romania?

There is documentation of genocide, here is an example of something I saw
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/26/Coffinmap.jpg)

Note how it says 'Judenfrei' in Estonia.  Perhaps this was just one crazy soldier, who somehow had information on how many Jews were alive in Poland, Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania.  Perhaps it was bigger than that.

edit: Also note that that picture was probably irrelevant to the big picture
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 08, 2006, 01:40:14 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Gustave5436 on May 08, 2006, 02:19:04 AM
I dismiss figures from the middle of war as we did not know the extent of the genocide until after the war.  The writers of this publication must have assumed Jews in the occupied territories were not dieing (whether the death camps were death camps or just concentration camps where the people were worked and starved to death, they still died), and then after the war, when we founf out about the deaths of millions, this publication could be corrected to account for the Jewish deaths.

Plus, if the holocaust is a Zionist conspiracy, why do we also believe that 3 million non-Jewish Poles were killed?  Why believe that thousands of atheists, Freemasons (which the Freemasons stil commemorate those lost in the deathcamps), and Jehova's Witnesses died?  And since there is no Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy (Trotsky was the most well-known Jewish Bolshevik, and Stalin ran him out of the USSR), what about accounts of Soviet POWs being killed?  Plus there are the Slavic civilians killed.  Then there were 300 thousand or so Serbs killed by the Croatian government, which was basically a Nazi puppet.

Whether Hitler personally ordered the deaths is irrelevant; I don't care about blaming long dead men, I care about the fact that over ten million people were killed

6 million decided upon beforehand?  Did they also make up figures for homosexuals, political dissidents, Balkan Slavs, USSR Slavs (I say this as I just remembered Russians are Slavs or something), Poles, etc.?  And the knew the Nazis were going to build concentration camps for these people?

If the holocaust was a myth, then why did the German government ask their Bulgarian allies to send them all their Jews (the Bulgarian government refused)?  Why did Denmark put all its Jews in fishing boats and smuggle them to Sweden?  They believed the conspiracy before it was even fully in place?

And the reconassiance photographs from WW2 I have seen showed furnaces and gas chambers, IIRC.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 08, 2006, 09:36:36 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Gustave5436 on May 08, 2006, 11:03:30 AM
Ok, so a lot of Bolsheviks were Jews.  A lot of the 'founding fathers; of the United States were Freemasons.  On the FSM website there is a graph in which the world's temperature rises as pirate populations decrease.  I think you are just drawing conclusions from coincedence.  Even if you are not, ok, Jewish Bolshevik conspiracy, Stalin kills it during his paranoid quest for power (unless every person, every military commander, every researcher he killed during the purges was Jewish).  

US is pro-Israel (which it wasn't at start; it told Israel to give the Sinai back after their war with Egypt or something) USSR, in a war with the US, supports the enemies of Israel.  Looks to me like standard cold war diplomacy.

South Carolina founded by Jews... coming from Brazil?  right... Actualy it looks to me like it was foudned by English settlers.  MAybe those English settlers were Jews, who knows.

Well I mentioned Croatian atrocities as part of the non-Jewish casualties of the holocaust, hoping that you could explain the deaths of millions of non-Jews in concentration camps and at the hands of the SS.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Erasmus on May 08, 2006, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: "Dionysios"
No jewish bolshevik conspiracy you say?  Yeah, right.  I would say Lenin was a more famous person than Trotsky and he was jewish as well.  He was born in Germany to jewish parents with the original name Haim Goldman.  He was adopted by a Russian Orthodx family where he aquired the Christian name Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (the first name after the first Russian tsar to accept the Orthodox Church).


Do you have some evidence that he was not in fact born to his "adopted" parents?  I do not believe Lenin has any of the stereotypical Jewish features.

My understanding is that a Bolshevik-Jewish connection was invented by conservatives in the early twentieth century to sew anticommunist sentiments.

-Erasmus
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Cinlef on May 08, 2006, 12:43:26 PM
Gustave5436 the thing about Dionysios is that he beleives all  the things you mentioned especially the USA to be controlled by a Jewish conspiracy. The fun thing about prejudice against Jewish people (or any ethnic and or religious group) is you can balme them for anything and everything you personally dislike and thus the complicated universe is simplified
An enraged
Cinlef
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 09, 2006, 05:22:20 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: mbczion on May 11, 2006, 07:15:30 PM
Well if there is a Jewish conspiracy to control the world, then we must be pretty darn smart.  I mean we are all of 0.3% of the world population and a great portion of Jews are Jewish by name alone and don't even think of themselves as such.  As for me, I have enough trouble controlling my own household :lol:

GOOD JEWISH HUMOR:

Why does the groom break the glass at a Jewish wedding?  

Ans:  It's his last chance to put his foot down :lol:  :lol:
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 11, 2006, 10:21:26 PM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Erasmus on May 12, 2006, 11:59:09 AM
Quote from: "Dionysios"
Some biased persons may wrongly view the source as biased, yet the following book quotes several jewish sources as to Lenin's jewish identity:

'Jewish Supremacism' by David Duke


Haha, wow.  I guess I must be pretty biased.

-Erasmus
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 14, 2006, 01:26:32 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: mbczion on May 14, 2006, 07:00:05 AM
Ok, let's just get this out in the open so people in this forum don't have to get bored to death hearing the same old cannons about us Jews:

We Jews killed Jesus.... YAWN
We Jews have all the money....YAWN
We Jews control the media....YAWN
We Jews are out to control the world....YAWN
We Jews consider Gentiles to be subhuman....YAWN
We Jews are warmongers....YAWN
Yet, at the same time, WE JEWS are wimps....YAWN
We Jews use Christian blood in our matza (the unleavened bread we eat for Passover)....YAWN
We Jews invented communism....YAWN
Yet, at the same time, We Jews invented captitalism....YAWN
We Jews are too primitive and religious....YAWN
Yet, at the same time, We Jews are too anti-religious....YAWN
Last, but not least, We Jews are responsible for all the world's ills....YAWN

Is there anything I left out, dionasaurus?  Or do you have anything newsbreaking for us to add to the above list?
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 6strings on May 14, 2006, 11:40:19 AM
Quote
We Jews use Christian blood in our matza (the unleavened bread we eat for Passover)....YAWN

Wait...are you serious?  You've heard people say this?  I mean, all these other claims are stupid...but what the hell?
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Erasmus on May 14, 2006, 02:06:32 PM
Quote from: "6strings"
Quote
We Jews use Christian blood in our matza (the unleavened bread we eat for Passover)....YAWN

Wait...are you serious?  You've heard people say this?  I mean, all these other claims are stupid...but what the hell?


Um yeah it's weird but I've heard/read on some loony's website this accusation.  Heh.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 15, 2006, 09:24:19 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Erasmus on May 15, 2006, 10:06:39 AM
Quote from: "Dionysios"
 The main point I want to make here is to expose the hypocrisy of wanting to make investigation of murder by jews a gravely disrespectful and horrendous act in itself while presenting the murder of jews as fact that anyone who dares investigate the veracity of is maligned as an anti-jewish racist.  And this is wrong.  Anyone else observe a double standard?


Nope.  But then again, I don't notice any adverse reactions to the suggestions that some Jewish people might have murdered some other people.  The notion that they do so as part of regular rituals, and then take part in acts of cannibalism, to me sounds like an urban myth intended to encourage anti-Jewish sentiments.

The Holocaust by contrast is a suggestion that, unlike your description, initially received widespread doubt and condemnation.  Germany at the time was considered a pinnacle of Western civilization; the idea that its leaders might be responsible for such an atrocity was unthinkable.

So go ahead and investigate ritual cannibalism by Jews.  I'm sure there are a few national governments who would sponsor your research.  But please don't try to use it in an argument about how Jews are evil until you can compile vast documentational, photographic, and eyewitness evidence.

-Erasmus
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on May 15, 2006, 10:58:06 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Marshy on May 15, 2006, 01:06:46 PM
i still think this is a very anti-semetic belief. why dont you tell this argument to someone who was there, i dont think you have the balls.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Ashantai on June 20, 2006, 07:52:02 PM
Another day, another anti-Semite. Yippee.

Ah yes, a Serbian Monk. of course, we all know that he is the fount of all wisdom. Really, the notion of cults, cloak and dagger intrigues are simply too complex to be true.

Okay, so how many Jews and others do YOU believe the Nazis killed? I mean, having seen video footage of the camps and such, it sure looks like a lot of people....
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on June 21, 2006, 02:00:47 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: DrQuak on June 21, 2006, 04:36:13 AM
what do you do erasmus? you seem to be a jack of all trades as it were, yet specialised in nothing.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on June 21, 2006, 05:40:33 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: FlatAnus on June 21, 2006, 06:27:14 AM
Hitler killed almost 43 million jews. He pushed their bodies into space from an opening in the top of the ice-dome.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: FlatAnus on June 21, 2006, 06:43:14 AM
no offense or nothing, hitler thought he was doing the right thing for his country. I'm not being inflamatory, there is proof to substantiate my claims.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on June 21, 2006, 09:33:50 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: DrQuak on June 22, 2006, 05:13:08 PM
my statement has nothing to do about this, but i don't care to respond to a topic that i have great distaste towards.


And hitler did think he was doing the right thing, i just shows how terrible "best intentions" are.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on June 24, 2006, 05:10:33 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Xargo on June 24, 2006, 05:13:15 AM
Quote from: "Dionysios"
To the bitch,

  If you think the Nazis enacted some sinister plan to murder jews, then you're the one spouting a conspiracy theory, you bandwagon rider.

- Dionysios


Don't swear. You'll go  to hell.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on June 24, 2006, 05:17:16 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Xargo on June 24, 2006, 05:21:10 AM
Quote from: "Dionysios"
To the self annointed judge (Xargo),

  Has she said anything to indicate she is not a woman (to which the term bitch would refer for the kind of woman who goes by such a name)?

- Dionysios


Judge? I thought your judge was God. Obviously you've got no respect for your religion. You nearly never post any kind posts in topics, and yet you're part of a religion based on kindness.

Using the word "bitch", the way you just now used it, it's still a curse, no matter directed to either a woman or man. Be nice. :)
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on June 24, 2006, 08:45:33 AM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on June 25, 2006, 07:40:57 AM
After reflection, I intend to review all my posts with an aim to deleting the mean-spirited and useless ones while retaining the more informative ones.

- Dionysios
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Cinlef on July 03, 2006, 07:51:05 PM
Quote from: "Sarthos"
If you don't believe in the holocaust, you are retarded.  My great-grandfather died in the holocaust, and I'd gladly kill all of you non-believers so you can go to heaven or hell, and ask those who died in it whether it really happened.

Well said
An enraged
Cinlef
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on July 04, 2006, 03:04:58 PM
the
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: cadmium_blimp on July 04, 2006, 03:06:20 PM
Quote from: "Dionysios"
So a moderator of this forum endorses murder over a difference of opinion.

- Dionysios

How is the occurence of the Holocaust an opinion?
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 6strings on July 04, 2006, 03:17:37 PM
Quote
How is the occurence of the Holocaust an opinion?

See, some people (normally, we call them anti-semites or "scum" for short) like to deny that the Holocaust happened, so that they can vilefy jews as attention seeking prats who stole Isreal from the Palestinians without any reason.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: cadmium_blimp on July 04, 2006, 03:22:26 PM
I already knew that.  The Holocaust is a thing that either did or did not happen and it did happen.  I've seen the old films the troops took at the concentration camps and I definitely do not believe they were faked.  A person would have to be pretty sick just to want to fake something like that.
Title: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Dionysios on July 04, 2006, 03:28:31 PM
the
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 17 November on March 15, 2008, 04:28:28 PM
Quote from: Erasmus
So go ahead and investigate ritual cannibalism by Jews.

But please don't try to use it in an argument about how Jews are evil until you can compile vast documentational, photographic, and eyewitness evidence.

-Erasmus

How about this for starters:

Jewish Ritual Murder: An Historical Investigation
By Helmut Schramm, Ph. D.
http://www.honestmediatoday.com/schramm/schramm.htm

The Oprah Winfrey Show - 1 May 1989
http://www.usajewish.com/downloads/vicki-devil-worship.HTML

Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 17 November on March 16, 2008, 09:17:26 AM
Quote from: Saint Raist
which mod changed all his posts to the? it's a nice touch but killed a thread i was trying to read. I agree with it though.

Quote from:  
He did that himself I believe, read above. A shame, too, since those are the ones I like best.

I apologize.  Yes, I did delete most of them well before they banned the username Dionysios.

As per the title of this thread, my initial post stated that the near universal belief of western civilization in a huge lie actually has precedent - namely the Donation of Constantine forgery which was perpetrated in Charlemagne's time some 500 years after Saint Constantine the Roman Emperor himself.  This forgery was the basis of many unethical political thefts, false claims, and wrongdoings such as the crusades and others until it was exposed by Lorenzo Valla and others during the renaissance era centuries later.  By 1600 even the papists themselves acknowledged it was a forgery.

Based on an essay by Professor Arthur Butz, Ph. D. of Case Western Reserve University in Ohio, I had compared belief in the jewish holocaust of WWII with belief in the Donation of Constantine forgery.

+Dionysios
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 17 November on March 16, 2008, 09:28:46 AM
However, although I believe the Germans to be innocent of genocide in WWII (which is different than persecution), I do believe that the German government was guilty of both complicity with Turkey and cover-up of the genocide of Armenians in WWI.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: sokarul on March 16, 2008, 11:24:57 AM
However, although I believe the Germans to be innocent of genocide in WWII (which is different than persecution), I do believe that the German government was guilty of both complicity with Turkey and cover-up of the genocide of Armenians in WWI.
Which is why you are just a religous nut with no fucking clue about anything.
See all your threads for evidence.     
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 17 November on March 23, 2008, 02:10:21 PM
Quote from: 17 November
My initial post had stated that the near universal belief of western civilization in a huge lie has a precedent - the Donation of Constantine forgery which was perpetrated in Charlemagne's time some 500 years after Saint Constantine the Roman Emperor himself.  This forgery was the basis of many unethical political thefts, false claims, and wrongdoings such as the crusades and others until it was exposed by Lorenzo Valla and others during the renaissance era centuries later.  By 1600 even the papists themselves acknowledged it was a forgery.

Based on an essay by Professor Arthur Butz, Ph. D. of Case Western Reserve University in Ohio, I had compared belief in the jewish holocaust of WWII with belief in the Donation of Constantine forgery.

The similarities between the alleged jewish holocaust and the greatest lie of the Middle Ages will be better appreciated by one who compares well researched holocaust revisionist literature with this brief but pointed analysis and rebuttal of the 'Donation of Constantine':

The Donation of Constantine and the Critique of Lorenzo Valla
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/donation/donation_of_constantine.htm
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Raist on March 24, 2008, 12:02:55 PM
Quote from: 17 November
My initial post had stated that the near universal belief of western civilization in a huge lie has a precedent - the Donation of Constantine forgery which was perpetrated in Charlemagne's time some 500 years after Saint Constantine the Roman Emperor himself.  This forgery was the basis of many unethical political thefts, false claims, and wrongdoings such as the crusades and others until it was exposed by Lorenzo Valla and others during the renaissance era centuries later.  By 1600 even the papists themselves acknowledged it was a forgery.

Based on an essay by Professor Arthur Butz, Ph. D. of Case Western Reserve University in Ohio, I had compared belief in the jewish holocaust of WWII with belief in the Donation of Constantine forgery.

The similarities between the alleged jewish holocaust and the greatest lie of the Middle Ages will be better appreciated by one who compares well researched holocaust revisionist literature with this brief but pointed analysis and rebuttal of the 'Donation of Constantine':

The Donation of Constantine and the Critique of Lorenzo Valla
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/donation/donation_of_constantine.htm
Pics and eyewitness testimony, first-hand perspective from live survivors....  compared to a document..... Oh the similarities are endless.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: [][][] on March 27, 2008, 10:30:12 AM
Ah yes, America going to war with Hitler to free the Jews from Hitler's evil grasp, we are such saints, aren't we? I suppose the fact that most Americans, and a good deal of our soldiers, did not even know the concentration camps existed until the War in Europe was over with did not factor into your reasoning. And here I have been thinking America went to war because of our alliances with European nations, the attack on the Pacific Fleet, to protect the hegemonical balance in Europe, ect.

I think many people overemphasize the connection between the Holocaust and the Second World War.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: khaspal on March 27, 2008, 10:39:20 AM
Ah yes, America going to war with Hitler to free the Jews from Hitler's evil grasp, we are such saints, aren't we? I suppose the fact that most Americans, and a good deal of our soldiers, did not even know the concentration camps existed until the War in Europe was over with did not factor into your reasoning. And here I have been thinking America went to war because of our alliances with European nations, the attack on the Pacific Fleet, to protect the hegemonical balance in Europe, ect.

I think many people overemphasize the connection between the Holocaust and the Second World War.

I don't really feel like reading through every post in here... who claimed we joined because of the concentration camps?
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 17 November on March 27, 2008, 11:38:12 AM
Quote from: Saint Raist
Pics and eyewitness testimony, first-hand perspective from live survivors.

which come apart under critical examinations.  Those who question these testimonies and examine different interpretations of certain photographs are then called anti-semitic, as usual.

  I do not know of any of these investigators who has denied that the Nazi regime persecuted the jews.  They are objective, unlike the pro-holocaust propaganda which is one sided in the extreme. 

Quote from:  
I think many people overemphasize the connection between the Holocaust and the Second World War.

I have read an analysis (by Arthur Butz) of holocaust propaganda during WWII by groups like the Jewish Agency in London and the World Jewish Congress and how they successfully used the power their propaganda had to manipulate public opinion to sway Pope Pius to their side in some of his public speeches and to sway american political figures in support of the war.  President Roosevelt himself never believed the reports of jewish killings saying of such reports that they were unconfirmed. 

I do not believe that the jewish forces mentioned were the only forces operating at the time as British intelligence figured prominently not only in the war but in the very creation of the OSS and the CIA, but the jewish propaganda did play a significant part.  What is revealing is that British intelligence was considerably downsized after the war while the influence of the jewish organizations only grew.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 17 November on March 27, 2008, 03:18:00 PM
For reference to information on this subject, here again is a list of websites with perspectives from both sides of this issue:

-----------------------------------------------

AAARGH (French language holocaust revisionism)
http://www.aaargh.com.mx/

Adelaide Institute (Frederick Toben) (anti-jewish)
http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (President of Iran)
http://www.president.ir/en/
http://www.ahmadinejad.ir/

Alabaster's Archive (anti-zionist website index)
http://www.geocities.com/alabasters_archive/index.html

American Free Press (anti-zionist newspaper)
http://www.americanfreepress.net/

American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) (zionist lobby umbrella)
http://www.aipac.org/

American Jewish Committee (zionist lobby)
http://www.ajc.org/

Americans For Middle East Understanding (AMEU) (Palestinian)
http://www.ameu.org/

Anti-Defamation League (ADL) (zionist lobby)
http://www.adl.org/

Australian League of Rights (anti-zionist)
http://www.alor.org/

Barnes Review (anti-jewish historical journal)
http://www.barnesreview.org/

Edwin Black (jewish historian)
http://www.transferagreement.com/
http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/
http://www.internalcombustionbook.com/
http://www.edwinblack.com/

Blacks and Jews (Louis Farrakhan)
http://www.blacksandjews.com

David Bollyn (anti-zionist journalist)
http://www.bollyn.com

Lenni Brenner (leftist anti-zionist jew)
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/

Professor Arthur Butz (engineer / holocaust revisionist writer)
http://www.codoh.com/butz/index.html

Wendy Campbell
http://www.exposingisraeliapartheid.com/

Matthias Chang (anti-zionist Malaysian statesman)

Committee For the Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH) (online books) http://www.codoh.com/index.shtml

David Duke 
http://www.davidduke.com/

Bobby Fischer (Reknown Chess Player)
http://www.fischer.jp/

Forward (zionist newspaper)
http://www.forward.com/

The French Connection (Daryl Bradford Smith)
http://www.iamthewitness.com

Des Griffin (american anti-jewish historian)
http://www.midnight-emissary.com/index.html

Hamas
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/

Hezbollah
http://english.wa3ad.org/
http://www.moqawama.org/english/secretary.php
http://www.almanar.com.lb/NewsSite/News.aspx?language=en

Gerd Honsik (anti-jewish Austrian historian)
http://www.honsik.com/

Eric Hufschmid (anti-zionist engineer)

http://www.erichufschmid.net

Ratibor Jurjevic (Serbian anti-jewish Historian)
http://www.dr-jurjevic.org

Independent History / (Michael Hoffman)
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/

Institute For Historical Review (anti-jewish historical journal)
http://www.ihr.org/

Institute For Palestine Studies (Palestinian)
http://www.palestine-studies.org/

David Irving (British World War II historian)
http://www.fpp.co.uk/

The Jewish Tribal Review (anti-zionist judaism)
http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/

Jew Watch
http://www.jewwatch.com/

Jewish Publication Society (judaism and jewish history)
http://www.jewishpub.org/

JR's Rare Books
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/

USS LIBERTY Veterans Association
http://www.gtr5.com/

Norman Lowell (Maltese statesman)
http://www.vivamalta.org/main/
http://www.imperium-europa.org/

Tony Martin (anti-jewish African scholar)
http://www.blacksandjews.com/2nd.pgMartin.html http://www.blacksandjews.com/TMartin_Broadsides.html#anchor241811 http://www.themajoritypress.com/

Carlo Mattogno (anti-jewish Italian historian)
http://www.vho.org/Authors/Carlo_Mattogno.html

Mossad
http://www.mossad.gov.il/default.aspx
http://www.mossad.gov.il/Eng/AboutUs.aspx
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/israel/mossad/

Muslim Brotherhood
http://www.ikhwanweb.com/

National Alliance (Nazi)
http://www.natall.com/

National Vanguard (Nazi)
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/

Neturei Karta (anti-zionist judaism)
www.nkusa.org
www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/nk.html http://headheeb.blogmosis.com/archives/014939.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta
www.jewsnotzionists.org
www.jewsagainstzionism.com

Carl Nordling (Finnish architect)
http://www.carlonordling.se/index.html

Revilo P. Oliver (anti-jewish historian)
http://www.revilo-oliver.com/

Omni Christian Book Club (anti-jewish papist)
http://www.omnicbc.com/index.html

Protocols of the Elders of Zion
http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/toread/pr-zion.htm http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm
http://www.aztlan.net/protocols.htm
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/HTML-docs/Protocols.htm

Radio Islam (Ahmed Rahmi / Ishmaelite)
http://www.radioislam.org

Revisionists (anti-jewish writer biographies)
http://www.revisionists.com/

Germar Rudolf (German Revisionist Historian)
http://germarrudolf.com/

Cliff Shack
http://www.geocities.com/cliff_shack/
http://www.geocities.com/cliff_shack/articles.html

Southern Poverty Law Centre (zionist hate group)
http://www.splcenter.org/

Stereoma (anti-jewish Greek bookseller)

The Truth at Last (Edward Fields)

Talmud Unmasked 
http://www.talmudunmasked.com/

Tehran Times
http://www.tehrantimes.com

Temple Institute (zionist judaism)
http://www.templeinstitute.org/

Thesis and Dissertation Press (holocaust revisionism)
http://vho.org/index2.html

Ariel Bar Tzadok (Kosher Torah / zionist judaism)
http://www.koshertorah.com/
http://koshertorah.com/PDF/KabbalahMasonsandAmerica.pdf

Simon Weisenthal Centre (zionist)
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=fwLYKnN8LzH&b=242023

Western Safeguards Initiative (anti-zionist)
http://wsi.matriots.com/

Richard Williamson (anti-zionist, anti-Vatican LeFebvre bishop)
http://www.sspx.ca/Documents/Bishop-Williamson/index.htm

Oprah Winfrey Show (1 May 1989, NS)
(Jewish Cult Member Vicki Polin Exposes Active Multi-Generational Jewish Ritual Murder Cults)
http://www.usajewish.com/downloads/vicki-devil-worship.HTML

World Jewish Congress (zionist)
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Jewish_Congress

World Zionist Organization (zionist)
http://www.jewishagency.org
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Zionist_Congress

The Zundelsite (Ernst Zundel) (holocaust revisionism)
http://www.zundelsite.org/
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 17 November on October 08, 2009, 10:49:01 AM
Quote from: cadmium_blimp
Quote from: Dionysios
So a moderator of this forum endorses murder over a difference of opinion.

- Dionysios
How is the occurence of the Holocaust an opinion?
I was referring to the fact that people believe different things about the nature of what constitutes the jewish holocaust. 

What I believe in a nutshell is this:

The main thing that occurred to european jews during the second world war was their forced deportation (against their will) primarily to Palestine and points east which exactly what both the Nazi and zionist leaders wanted.  Generally, the most dignified jews of europe which constituted the great majority were were wrongly and severely persecuted by the Nazis and this definitely included murder on many an occasion.  The holocaust story is a fanatic ideological revisionist exagerration which serves a cover for this event as these jews still existed at the end of the war.  The majority of deported jews went from points like the Auschwitz/Birkenau concentration camps to places where they were resettled by Russia (Auschwitz is in Poland which was in the post-war Soviet zone, and also to other places most significantly america and Palestine.  This relocation of jews is the subject of 'The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry' by Walter Sanning.
http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Eastern-European-Walter-Sanning/dp/0939484110

In 1940, over 90% of european jews were anti-zionist which means they were traditional assimilationists - they were content and preferred the country in which they lived and considered themselves that nationality (whether German, British, Spanish, et cetera).  Ever since dispersal by the Romans, jewish tradition always dictated that the diaspora of the jewish people is the will of God who will not return the jews until the time of the goy or gentile has ended.  This is based upon the prophet Isaiah and also accords with ancient Christian tradition.  A break from this is an indication of apostasy from jewish tradition. 
Traditional jews such as the Neturei Karta have always opposed zionism and the state of israel's existence based upon spiritual principles.  This does not at all mean that traditional jews like the Neturei Karta are fans of Hitler.  In fact, that shameful distinction actuall belongs to their arch-enemies, the zionist jews.
http://www.nkusa.org/

During the 1930's and 1940's, the zionists were still a radical fanatical minority among their brethren.  Hitler's persecution and forced deportations changed attitude.  It is no accident that Hitler is occasionally referred to as the best friend the zionists ever had. 

My second main contention is that Adolf Hitler himself and most of his closest colleagues were zionist jews who collaborated with the zionists their entire lives without fail.  Israel's founding prime minister David Ben-Gurion merely put the finishingtouches on what Hitler activated which was Hitler's childhood dream as a Viennese jewish boy - the relocation of the jews of europe to ancient Palestine - a Dream which he successfully achieved.

The strong and continual working relations of the Nazism both in Germany and of fascist countries in other european countries with the zionist movement from 1933 onwards is excellently told by the jewish author Lenni Brenner in his book 'Zionism in the Age of Dictators.'  This book shows it all.  Among many other things, two ardent jewish Nazis throughout the entirety of world war two who were terrorist associated with the Stern Gang became right wing Likud prime ministers of israel.  The are Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir.
Zionism in the Age of Dictators By Lenni Brenner
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/

In spite of the fact that it accepts the holocaust story uncritically (which is not that big of a deal especially because the book does have the correct idea with reguard to deportation of european jews as the clinchpin), 'Adolf Hitler Founder of Israel:  Israel At War With the Jews' by the anti-zionist German jew Hennecke Kardel is possibly the single best book ever written on Adolf Hitler.
http://ellhn.e-e-e.gr/books/assets/founder_of_Israel.pdf

An extraordinary book from 1940 by Hansjurgen Koehler - an ex-Gestapo agent who defected to Britain - contains  great deal of information on Hitler's family which and exposed Nazi intelligence networks and their engineering of the civil war in Spain which most Spanish people were content in that they did not want a brutal war and a fascist dictator like Franco.

Inside the Gestapo:  Hitler's Shadow Over the World
By Hansjurgen Koehler
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Gestapo-Hitlers-Shadow-World/dp/0930852397

A classic israeli non-fiction book exposing Nazi collaboration with the founders of the israeli government written by the jewish playwright Ben Hecht is entitled 'Perfidy':
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/kastner_judea_magazine.htm
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Mykael on October 08, 2009, 01:03:34 PM
Quote from: cadmium_blimp
Quote from: Dionysios
So a moderator of this forum endorses murder over a difference of opinion.

- Dionysios
How is the occurence of the Holocaust an opinion?
I was referring to the fact that people believe different things about the nature of what constitutes the jewish holocaust. 

What I believe in a nutshell is this:

The main thing that occurred to european jews during the second world war was their forced deportation (against their will) primarily to Palestine and points east which exactly what both the Nazi and zionist leaders wanted.  Generally, the most dignified jews of europe which constituted the great majority were were wrongly and severely persecuted by the Nazis and this definitely included murder on many an occasion.  The holocaust story is a fanatic ideological revisionist exagerration which serves a cover for this event as these jews still existed at the end of the war.  The majority of deported jews went from points like the Auschwitz/Birkenau concentration camps to places where they were resettled by Russia (Auschwitz is in Poland which was in the post-war Soviet zone, and also to other places most significantly america and Palestine.  This relocation of jews is the subject of 'The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry' by Walter Sanning.
http://www.amazon.com/Dissolution-Eastern-European-Walter-Sanning/dp/0939484110

In 1940, over 90% of european jews were anti-zionist which means they were traditional assimilationists - they were content and preferred the country in which they lived and considered themselves that nationality (whether German, British, Spanish, et cetera).  Ever since dispersal by the Romans, jewish tradition always dictated that the diaspora of the jewish people is the will of God who will not return the jews until the time of the goy or gentile has ended.  This is based upon the prophet Isaiah and also accords with ancient Christian tradition.  A break from this is an indication of apostasy from jewish tradition. 
Traditional jews such as the Neturei Karta have always opposed zionism and the state of israel's existence based upon spiritual principles.  This does not at all mean that traditional jews like the Neturei Karta are fans of Hitler.  In fact, that shameful distinction actuall belongs to their arch-enemies, the zionist jews.
http://www.nkusa.org/

During the 1930's and 1940's, the zionists were still a radical fanatical minority among their brethren.  Hitler's persecution and forced deportations changed attitude.  It is no accident that Hitler is occasionally referred to as the best friend the zionists ever had. 

My second main contention is that Adolf Hitler himself and most of his closest colleagues were zionist jews who collaborated with the zionists their entire lives without fail.  Israel's founding prime minister David Ben-Gurion merely put the finishingtouches on what Hitler activated which was Hitler's childhood dream as a Viennese jewish boy - the relocation of the jews of europe to ancient Palestine - a Dream which he successfully achieved.

The strong and continual working relations of the Nazism both in Germany and of fascist countries in other european countries with the zionist movement from 1933 onwards is excellently told by the jewish author Lenni Brenner in his book 'Zionism in the Age of Dictators.'  This book shows it all.  Among many other things, two ardent jewish Nazis throughout the entirety of world war two who were terrorist associated with the Stern Gang became right wing Likud prime ministers of israel.  The are Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir.
Zionism in the Age of Dictators By Lenni Brenner
http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/

In spite of the fact that it accepts the holocaust story uncritically (which is not that big of a deal especially because the book does have the correct idea with reguard to deportation of european jews as the clinchpin), 'Adolf Hitler Founder of Israel:  Israel At War With the Jews' by the anti-zionist German jew Hennecke Kardel is possibly the single best book ever written on Adolf Hitler.
http://ellhn.e-e-e.gr/books/assets/founder_of_Israel.pdf

An extraordinary book from 1940 by Hansjurgen Koehler - an ex-Gestapo agent who defected to Britain - contains  great deal of information on Hitler's family which and exposed Nazi intelligence networks and their engineering of the civil war in Spain which most Spanish people were content in that they did not want a brutal war and a fascist dictator like Franco.

Inside the Gestapo:  Hitler's Shadow Over the World
By Hansjurgen Koehler
http://www.amazon.com/Inside-Gestapo-Hitlers-Shadow-World/dp/0930852397

A classic israeli non-fiction book exposing Nazi collaboration with the founders of the israeli government written by the jewish playwright Ben Hecht is entitled 'Perfidy':
http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/kastner_judea_magazine.htm
And the point of digging up a year and a half old thread is....?
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 17 November on October 08, 2009, 06:41:24 PM
Quote from: cadmium_blimp
Quote from: Dionysios
So a moderator of this forum endorses murder over a difference of opinion.

- Dionysios
How is the occurence of the Holocaust an opinion?

Quote from: Mykael
And the point of digging up a year and a half old thread is....?

I just needed a little time to think over the question.

Out of sincere respect for all those who suffered and for our own sakes, I believe the truth of the matter is well worth the time.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Raist on October 08, 2009, 06:57:42 PM
And jews did 9/11.

 ::)
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Proleg on October 08, 2009, 07:15:40 PM
Israel's founding prime minister David Ben-Gurion merely put the finishingtouches on what Hitler activated which was Hitler's childhood dream as a Viennese jewish boy - the relocation of the jews of europe to ancient Palestine - a Dream which he successfully achieved.
Is it bad that I'm laughing in a Holocaust thread?
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Raist on October 08, 2009, 08:37:36 PM
I just want to ask, do you really think the holocaust was just a violent relocation of jewish people where some murder and death occurred?

I think there are enough independent accounts of jewish enslavement, starvation, abuse, experimentation, and other basic human rights to show that it was much more than relocation.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 17 November on October 08, 2009, 09:10:50 PM
Quote from: Raist
I just want to ask, do you really think the holocaust was "JUST" just a violent relocation of jewish people where some murder and death occurred?
I would not have included the word "just" if I was making the statement, but I do believe that the forced relocation is the most essential part of the story.

Quote from: Raist
I think there are enough independent accounts of jewish enslavement, starvation, abuse, experimentation, and other basic human rights to show that it was much more than relocation.

I do not have a problem with that, and I admire and share your respect for the weak. 
I generally agree.  After listening to all sides, I would say that some details like gas chambers I believe are fabrications, but my sympathy is with the jews and not their persecutors. 

I concur with the opinion of the jewish writer Norman Finkelstein that a huge and corrupt holocaust industry exists to make money out of peoples' misery and this is reprehensible.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

The Holocaust Industry By Norman Finkelstein
http://books.google.com/books?id=VrqK5VdO2i0C&dq=norman+finkelstein+holocaust+industry&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=0LbOSp2IEpGoMcmtuZQD&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

May I ask your opinion of the modern israeli state?
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: optimisticcynic on October 08, 2009, 09:13:28 PM
Quote from: Raist
I just want to ask, do you really think the holocaust was "JUST" just a violent relocation of jewish people where some murder and death occurred?
I would not have included the word "just" if I was making the statement, but I do believe that is the most essential part of the story.

Quote from: Raist
I think there are enough independent accounts of jewish enslavement, starvation, abuse, experimentation, and other basic human rights to show that it was much more than relocation.

I do not have a problem with that, and I admire and share your respect for the weak. 

May I ask your opinion of the modern israeli state?
A. I based on evidence think that there is little to no chance that most of them relocated. that is what the Germans tried first. when they had trouble getting rid of them they started to kill them.

As for Israel who the hell thought it was a good idea to make in a area where every one will hate them and try to destroy them.
I don't care if it is there holy land. couldn't they have found a place where less people would be killed.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Raist on October 08, 2009, 09:27:15 PM
Quote from: Raist
I just want to ask, do you really think the holocaust was "JUST" just a violent relocation of jewish people where some murder and death occurred?
I would not have included the word "just" if I was making the statement, but I do believe that the forced relocation is the most essential part of the story.

Quote from: Raist
I think there are enough independent accounts of jewish enslavement, starvation, abuse, experimentation, and other basic human rights to show that it was much more than relocation.

I do not have a problem with that, and I admire and share your respect for the weak. 
I generally agree.  After listening to all sides, I would say that some details like gas chambers I believe are fabrications, but my sympathy is with the jews and not their persecutors. 

I concur with the opinion of the jewish writer Norman Finkelstein that a huge and corrupt holocaust industry exists to make money out of peoples' misery and this is reprehensible.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/

The Holocaust Industry By Norman Finkelstein
http://books.google.com/books?id=VrqK5VdO2i0C&dq=norman+finkelstein+holocaust+industry&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=0LbOSp2IEpGoMcmtuZQD&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

May I ask your opinion of the modern israeli state?

I have very few opinion's politically on the establishment of the Israeli state, it is no more valid than any other country and no less valid than any other country considering their origins.

It is in my opinion a convenient stronghold for the U.S. in the region so we fund their humongous military budget since it is no longer acceptable to conquer a country and then annex it as a military colony.

I think the holocaust is real simply because there has been so little gain from it. As well as the extensive records that hitler kept about all of the affairs of the war.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: 17 November on November 03, 2009, 01:34:50 AM
Quote from: optimisticcynic
I based on evidence think that there is little to no chance that most of them relocated. that is what the Germans tried first. when they had trouble getting rid of them they started to kill them.
The other plans like the ridiculous one to ship european jews to Madagascar fell through because the Germans lost North Africa by 1943.  Hitler never gave up trying to send jews to Palestine, and his biggest obstacle during the war were the British who threatened to and did sink boats of european jews coming to Palestine during the war.  

The determining factor at Auschwitz was capitalist greed.  The large camp at Auschwitz was a prisoner of war facility that was turned into a major industrial facility in 1941 where the labor was cheap.  Major corporations like I.G. Farben set up factories at the Auschwitz camp which was run by the SS.  Farben and the other companies paid the SS for the labor per person per day.  The SS kept most of the money and grudgingly spent as little as possible on prisoner food and other necessities.  The finances were directed by the ruthless (and characteristically capitalist) SS general Pohl, and demonstrate that Nazism is a product of capitalism which should give sober thoughts to so many brainwashed westerners who stupidly and wrongly identify capitalism with freedom.  Capitalism actually leads to slavery as Hilaire Belloc argued in 'The Servile State' back in 1911, and the history of Nazism confirms it.  Another excellent work in this area is Edwin Black's 'IBM and the Holocaust.'

Many prisoners died because of this neglect, but the numbers were grossly inflated by propagandists during the cold war who had no clue as to the true numbers which were captured by the Soviets in 1945 when the captured the headquarters of the camp system.  The total number of dead (including non-jews) at Auschwitz of all causes was about 70,000.  Hitler never issued an order to exterminate jews.  That is not to deny that he was racist and unwarrantedly rough in the extreme against european jews.  The real jew haters were Propaganda Minister and Berlin City Chief Goebbels as well as Himmler's Lieutenant Kaltenbrunner.  SS Chief Himmler himself was not as intellectually anti-jewish like Goebbels, but was very much like a politician and went with the flow to stay in power.  The anti-jewish racists who did cause murderer of some jews consisted mostly of SS men such as Kaltenbrunner, Goebbels, and Martin Bormann (Hitler's chief of staff).  The Wehrmacht was the regular army and was largely anti-Hitler even while the war was still going on.  The Wehrmacht and the SS were therefore very different.  Luftwaffe Chief Goering was sympathetic to the jews, and the Luftwaffe was not caught up in the anti-jewish business.

There was no murder by gassing at Auschwitz.  There was delousing of clothes.  The only place where gassing of jews to death did in fact occur was in Lublin.  Zyklon B (a disinfectant) was not the agent.  Cyanide was used.  The story of Lublin is as follows:

The Slovene SS general Odilo Globocnik was made governor of Vienna, Austria after the Anschluss of 1938.  Globocnik was a thief who used his office to steal money.  When Hitler heard about it, he fired him, but Himmler gave him a job as the camp commander in Lublin, Poland.  Globocnik simply had large numbers of jews at his camp murdered so that he could steal their money.  His motivation was not anti-jewism.  When Himmler found out about this, he did not fire him for fear of Hitler finding out about it as the backlash could have resulted in Himmler losing his job.  Himmler's position completely depended on Hitler's good graces.  As a result of Himmler's nervousness about touching the matter, Globocnik continued as camp commander at Lublin.  

Kurt Gerstein is usually cited as a hero of the anti-German resistance, but he was in fact the individual that invented the plan of constructing a building at the Lublin camp with only one airtight door and a valve on the roof.  This plan was approved by Globocnik, and the building was constructed.  Gerstein was the individual who poured the cyanide down the hole in the roof and then quickly covered it each time many jews were locked inside.  Gerstein had a history of protestant religious hysteria and drifted from sect to sect.  As the gassing proceeded, Gerstein's conscience finally snapped.  He convinced himself to tell as many people about it as possible leaving his own name out of it and greatly enlarging the story.  He went around Berlin telling people that Hitler had personally witnessed mass killings at Auschwitz which was a lie.  Gerstein was placed in an asylum, and was later released to a small town in west Germany.  In 1945 when the Americans were only a few miles away, fearing that he would be blamed for the gassing of jews at Lublin, Gerstein judged himelf by hanging himself.  No gassing occurred other than in the Lublin camp.  

So neither extreme of the controversy is actually correct.  The Nazis persecuted the jews, but certain aspects of it have been much exagerrated and distorted.  

Anyone who thinks that I excuse Hitler, should take at look at my comments about Hitler at the pro-Nazi Stormfront website which obviously but sadly anger quite a few.
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=496584&page=25
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=496584&page=22
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Thank_you on November 03, 2009, 10:48:03 PM
If Holocaust wasn't allowed to happen and be documented very well during WW2, who were behind the destruction of Europe couldn't convince millions of Jews from all over the world to gather in the innovative military base (called 'Israel', a historical nation whose power was compared to the power of ONE man called Jesus Christ!).
And thanks to this very clever idea, those Elites (on power) were able to control the resources of Middle East (taken from France and UK just after WW2) till our days.
So thanks to the big propaganda about what is called "Holocaust", the Jews had and still have no way but to obey their big bosses who are supporting and funding the military base 'Israel' since its creation and which was prepared just for them.
In fact, many Jews couldn't realize this simple truth till the last war in July 2006.
But, practically speaking, people in almost all countries are powerless and not only in Israel... we just need to look around and see what is happening to people in America, Europe, Middle East, Africa, Far East...
The Elites of the world (found in all governments) see all these peoples as sheep while driving them the way they like (this became rather easy by the hi-tech media) hence selling them more weapons and taking from them more taxes for protection.
May I add that 'Holocaust' has been substituted now by 'Terror against civilians' which is scaring to death all peoples and not only the Jews since 9-11 2001. Another genius idea by the world's Elites!
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Raist on November 04, 2009, 06:36:35 PM
English, do you speak it?
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on November 04, 2009, 08:24:33 PM
I didn't read through the entire thread but, my question: is what happened to the Jews in the holocaust any different or somehow worse than what the Americans and Colonists did to the American Indians?

A friend of mine (who is sioux), who is a historian told me that the number will never be fully known, but it is estimated over 100 million indians were slaughtered over 150 years by the U.S. (after the revolution).  If that is true than it is substantially more than the death toll due to the holocaust.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Raist on November 05, 2009, 03:05:14 PM
I didn't read through the entire thread but, my question: is what happened to the Jews in the holocaust any different or somehow worse than what the Americans and Colonists did to the American Indians?

A friend of mine (who is sioux), who is a historian told me that the number will never be fully known, but it is estimated over 100 million indians were slaughtered over 150 years by the U.S. (after the revolution).  If that is true than it is substantially more than the death toll due to the holocaust.

There is a difference between rounding up civilians and murdering them and two civilizations clashing.

The treatment may have been similar, but lack of documentation, and lack of racial understandings make it impossible for anyone to know about it or feel the same sense of wrongness.

Another large difference is the fact that the indians and american people were fighting an active war against each other, the indians would willingly sign up for other countries and fight against us etc. The killing of the jews was a systematic rounding up, and genocide.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Marcus Aurelius on November 05, 2009, 08:42:26 PM
Sure there are differences.  My point is, what was done to the Indians, and the justification for it, was nothing less than genocide.  Manifest destiny sounds a lot like Hitlers motive to purge what he believed to be lesser people from this world.  Also, America's genocide was much more effective than the holocaust.  Not only did we kill more, but the Indian culture is all but gone, where as the Jews were given their own country and are seen around the world.  We broke every single treaty we ever made with the Indians, and we are now living in the land that is rightfully theirs, legally, according to the treaties that we violated.  Their war against us was a defense of their culture, all attacks they made against us were reactionary to our actions against them.

There have been worse cases of genocide in history.  American's killing off the Indians because we believe we were culturally superior is just one example.

P.S.:  incredibly drunk right now, so I may edit this post in the morning, but that is my general opinion.
Title: Re: Context and Perspective in the Holocaust Controversy
Post by: Raist on November 05, 2009, 09:02:42 PM
That is the most one sided version of history evar. About par for the course with anything involving american history. Both sides were completely horrible, it was full of nearly lawless wars, but again, par for the course for the time. It will never compare to plunging the entire african continent into the dark age that they are still in. India going from the wealthiest nation in the world to a dirt poor nation. etc. The "genocide" of the indians was simply a consequence of two conflicting life styles not an actual intent.

Also manifest destiny was bullshit, they didn't believe that back then, they simply decided to move west, and I don't see how you can complain about breaking treaties, no treaty on Earth has ever gone unbroken.

The settling of the U.S. is no worse than the settling of any country, from france to spain, no country has ever been settled without the massacring of the people that were there before you.