The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Q&A => Topic started by: narcberry on April 05, 2007, 03:43:07 PM

Title: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 05, 2007, 03:43:07 PM
1: A bubble will go up in China
2: A bubble will go up in the United States
3: If the earth is round, bubbles will rise outwards from the earth
4: Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round

Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: jizzmaster on April 05, 2007, 03:48:44 PM
TRUE
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Pablo the Incredible on April 05, 2007, 04:11:17 PM
Correct: bubbles DO go up. However, up is relative. the bubble is travelling away from the earth because it is lighter than air. You fail narcberry.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 05, 2007, 04:13:31 PM
Correct: bubbles DO go up. However, up is relative. the bubble is travelling away from the earth because it is lighter than air. You fail narcberry.

Up means up to me. If up means down or sideways to you, you are mistaken.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on April 05, 2007, 04:17:56 PM
It's called "gravity" (I know, I know, gravity doesn't exist on FE, but it does on RE).  If you accept the RE model, you accept that at every point on the globe, "up" means "towards the sky".

So yes, it's perfectly logical for bubbles to go up in the US and in China at the same time, even if we live on a RE.  Direction is relative to your position on the globe.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Pablo the Incredible on April 05, 2007, 04:21:37 PM
Correct: bubbles DO go up. However, up is relative. the bubble is travelling away from the earth because it is lighter than air. You fail narcberry.

Up means up to me. If up means down or sideways to you, you are mistaken.

Up in China is away from the ground. It is the same in the U.S., and everywhere else. Again narc, you fail.

To someone observing the world from outside, say, on a large camel, a bubble, I'll use a helium balloon, just because, two released from Australia and America will both move away from the earth...in opposite directions. For the third time, you fail narc.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: jizzardofoz on April 05, 2007, 04:28:44 PM
These forums are comedy  :D ;D
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 05, 2007, 04:32:01 PM
It's called "gravity" (I know, I know, gravity doesn't exist on FE, but it does on RE).  If you accept the RE model, you accept that at every point on the globe, "up" means "towards the sky".

So yes, it's perfectly logical for bubbles to go up in the US and in China at the same time, even if we live on a RE.  Direction is relative to your position on the globe.

Take a look at my newly posted gravity thread.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Hyperion395 on April 05, 2007, 09:12:34 PM
So narcberry, according to you bubbles in China don't go up, they go into the ground...?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: TheEngineer on April 05, 2007, 09:32:59 PM
It's called "gravity" (I know, I know, gravity doesn't exist on FE, but it does on RE).
It sure doesn't.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: crazyidiot on April 05, 2007, 10:33:17 PM
Explain this! http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=0696
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: leclerc on April 06, 2007, 02:35:25 AM
(http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/3950/bubblezj2.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: DakaSha on April 06, 2007, 06:02:05 AM
Explain this! http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=0696

actually why dont you explain it. as far as i can tell it is based on the fact that the earth is round
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: CommonCents on April 06, 2007, 07:18:09 AM
Question for Narcberry:

If I somehow made a perfectly spherical room(spherical so there is no 'landmark' to give away direction) and if I somehow had a way for this room to avoid/break/ignore gravitation (notice I didn't say gravity because I know TheEngineer would be here in a heartbeat to say "that's not hard as gravity doesn't exist") and if I put you in the center of this sphere-room and spun you around a bunch of times...which way would be up?


The point:

Up is a relative term we have given to the opposite of the direction in which we fall.  The key word in there is RELATIVE.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Guns N. Roses on April 06, 2007, 10:05:39 AM
WOW  ;D

Do you REALLY have trouble understanding up? LOL
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: CommonCents on April 06, 2007, 10:54:23 AM
No, I know which way is up, you round earth moron.  It's you that don't know which way is up, if you are in China, because according to your belief, up would be down there!  Doesn't anybody get it? :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Thanks for ignoring my question narc.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Guns N. Roses on April 06, 2007, 11:08:44 AM
Bubbles don't travel specifically up. They travel away from the earth, perpendicular to the tangent of the earth (yeah, i know its like a double negative but thats the best way i can put it)
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: CommonCents on April 06, 2007, 11:36:56 AM
Question for Narcberry:

If I somehow made a perfectly spherical room(spherical so there is no 'landmark' to give away direction) and if I somehow had a way for this room to avoid/break/ignore gravitation (notice I didn't say gravity because I know TheEngineer would be here in a heartbeat to say "that's not hard as gravity doesn't exist") and if I put you in the center of this sphere-room and spun you around a bunch of times...which way would be up?


The point:

Up is a relative term we have given to the opposite of the direction in which we fall.  The key word in there is RELATIVE.

Narc, oh master of up and down, could you please answer?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: BOGWarrior89 on April 06, 2007, 11:46:05 AM
So, according to you all, as soon as a bubble is formed it flies straight upwards (that is to say, on a line that is normal (perpendicular) to the surface) and continues on this path until it bursts?

Strange, my bubbles travel in a pattern similar to that of Brownian Motion.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Agent_0042 on April 06, 2007, 11:57:38 AM
Wow, that gravity train idea was awesome. Yet another proof that forty-two is the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: DakaSha on April 07, 2007, 08:40:21 AM
So, according to you all, as soon as a bubble is formed it flies straight upwards (that is to say, on a line that is normal (perpendicular) to the surface) and continues on this path until it bursts?

Strange, my bubbles travel in a pattern similar to that of Brownian Motion.

wow nicly taken out of context
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 07:52:52 AM
Up is up is up. In China bubbles do go up. If the earth is round, this up would lead them to collide with earth. But since the earth is flat, bubbles all go up. This makes things simple since we dont need to create some kind of relative science only to explain bubbles. Up is up is up.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: CommonCents on April 09, 2007, 07:56:04 AM
Question for Narcberry:

If I somehow made a perfectly spherical room(spherical so there is no 'landmark' to give away direction) and if I somehow had a way for this room to avoid/break/ignore gravitation (notice I didn't say gravity because I know TheEngineer would be here in a heartbeat to say "that's not hard as gravity doesn't exist") and if I put you in the center of this sphere-room and spun you around a bunch of times...which way would be up?


The point:

Up is a relative term we have given to the opposite of the direction in which we fall.  The key word in there is RELATIVE.

Narcberry...still waiting on an answer.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: DakaSha on April 09, 2007, 08:43:07 AM
Up is up is up. In China bubbles do go up. If the earth is round, this up would lead them to collide with earth. But since the earth is flat, bubbles all go up. This makes things simple since we dont need to create some kind of relative science only to explain bubbles. Up is up is up.

narc you really are just a moron. the other FE'ers here may be a little crazy but your just plain dumb. sorry.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ∂G/∂x on April 09, 2007, 09:07:46 AM
I have to agree. Bubbles don't go 'up', they move away from the centre of the Earth, i.e. from it's centre of gravitation. Just because 'up is up is up' doesn't mean that all bubbles go the same way. Left is left is left, but if we are facing opposite ways to start with, when we turn left we will be facing in different directions...(even on a Flat Earth!).
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: akira on April 09, 2007, 09:38:17 AM
Very low theory.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on April 09, 2007, 11:42:15 AM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I love this post.

How old are you, narcberry?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 02:00:36 PM
Question for Narcberry:

If I somehow made a perfectly spherical room(spherical so there is no 'landmark' to give away direction) and if I somehow had a way for this room to avoid/break/ignore gravitation (notice I didn't say gravity because I know TheEngineer would be here in a heartbeat to say "that's not hard as gravity doesn't exist") and if I put you in the center of this sphere-room and spun you around a bunch of times...which way would be up?


The point:

Up is a relative term we have given to the opposite of the direction in which we fall.  The key word in there is RELATIVE.

Narcberry...still waiting on an answer.

I didn't think I needed to answer since you already had a point.
But in answer to your question, "which way would be up?"
Up.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: CommonCents on April 09, 2007, 02:02:28 PM
And how do you determine "up" in that room?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Chris Spaghetti on April 09, 2007, 02:05:50 PM
If the spherical Earth travelled in the same way as a flat earth then yes the bubbles would go 'up' but then again, everything in China would fall off, water would run off and we'd all be pretty screwed, which, by the way IT DOESN'T!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 02:06:32 PM
And how do you determine "up" in that room?

Thanks, now that is the correct question.

Much like a pilot, we have no way of knowing without instrumentation. In fact, you're question could have been, if you are in a cockpit and flying through very thick fog, how do you tell which way is up?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 02:07:45 PM
If the spherical Earth travelled in the same way as a flat earth then yes the bubbles would go 'up' but then again, everything in China would fall off, water would run off and we'd all be pretty screwed, which, by the way IT DOESN'T!

That is because China and the United States are both on the topside of the flat earth.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: CommonCents on April 09, 2007, 02:09:16 PM
#1 you didn't answer the question
#2 no I couldn't ask it that way because even flying like that...as long as you're not trying to fake 0g....you can drop something and see where it falls....I asked it very specifically for a reason.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 02:23:17 PM
#1 you didn't answer the question
#2 no I couldn't ask it that way because even flying like that...as long as you're not trying to fake 0g....you can drop something and see where it falls....I asked it very specifically for a reason.

I did answer it. There is no way of knowing without instrumentation.

As far as the plane, pilots are required to understand certain instruments in order to fly through some types of clouds/fog/weather. This is since they cannot "drop something and see where it falls." There are many scenarios that pilots encounter daily where they could not tell you which way is up without their instrumentation. It's the same problem, just minus the leading questions.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: CommonCents on April 09, 2007, 02:39:11 PM
In my scenario even  with instrumentation you wouldn't be able to find an up or a down...so which way is up?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 02:44:49 PM
In my scenario even  with instrumentation you wouldn't be able to find an up or a down...so which way is up?
Up, clearly.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: CommonCents on April 09, 2007, 02:49:08 PM
And with that last piece of truly useless information I officially know that narcberry is only full of shit.  Posts by narcberry can forever be ignored since (s)he doesn't know what (s)he's talking about.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on April 09, 2007, 02:49:32 PM
Do you actually not understand the question, narcberry, or is your constant thick-headedness to mask that you don't have a credible answer?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 02:51:08 PM
No, you two just assume that I approach things from a round earth perspective like you do. For me, up is an absolute direction. But you think I'm being ignorant by not seeing things the way you do.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: CommonCents on April 09, 2007, 03:03:14 PM
OK...If you were to go on the other side of the ice wall, and the Earth accelerates out of view...and the UA doesn't affect you because it's so awesomely magical...and you were tumbling around so you don't know which way the Earth went...Which way is Up?   This one's worded in FE so no more of your bullshit.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Angelflesh on April 09, 2007, 03:24:25 PM
I suppose you could look around and see which direction things are moving when they pass you to determine "up". This is what an FE'r would say i think.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 03:55:17 PM
I'm not being rediculous. Under your hypothetical, I can see what you mean about up. However, that is not what we are talking about. We are speaking exclusively about the surface of the earth.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Bushido on April 09, 2007, 04:28:44 PM
Narcberry is right, up is up in a plane and is determined by an instrument called artificial horizon (or attitude indicator, AI). It is essentially a gyroscope which keeps its orientation in space regardless of the aircraft's movement.

I wonder, though, how is the AI showing up when a plane goes from USA to China (aka Indian Ocean or Australia as the other side of the world)?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ∂G/∂x on April 09, 2007, 04:32:25 PM
I'm sure you agree that 'up' is the opposite of 'down' and that all things fall 'down'. What you seem to (quite amazingly) be missing is that on a Real Round Earth the terms up and down are relative not absolute. We are quite aware that in FE up is an absolute term, but to use that fact as a prove of flat Earth means you are saying:

1. If the Earth is flat, 'up' is an absolute direction.
2. Bubbles should always go 'up'
3. Bubbles do always rise from the ground, going apparently 'up'
4. This 'up' is absolute, and therefore the same direction everywhere.
5. On a Round Earth this would lead to bubbles going into the ground.
6. Bubbles don't go into the ground.
7. Round earth is false.

But your fault is in point 4, where you have assumed what you are trying to prove, reducing your 'proof' to:

"The Earth is flat, therefore the Earth is flat."

Compelling in its simplicity, but a sad logical fallacy.

Edit: That last line has become my new poem about Flat Earth. It's called 'Narcproof'.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Bushido on April 09, 2007, 04:54:46 PM
My question is ilustrated with this sketch:
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/bushido_me/pic2.jpg)

Can someone please explain how the gyro works? Cause this may be a way to test if the Earth is flat or round!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 05:00:33 PM
My question is ilustrated with this sketch:
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/bushido_me/pic2.jpg)

Can someone please explain how the gyro works? Cause this may be a way to test if the Earth is flat or round!

That would be interesting.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ∂G/∂x on April 09, 2007, 05:02:29 PM
Question dodger.....answer my question! In your own time of course, I'm not impatient, but don't think I'll forget if you leave it til later!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 05:13:36 PM
Question dodger.....answer my question! In your own time of course, I'm not impatient, but don't think I'll forget if you leave it til later!

I dodged nothing. Where is this question?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ∂G/∂x on April 09, 2007, 05:17:10 PM
The question is, what is up with that glaring logical inconsistency in your argument I posted a couple of posts up? And by what is up with it I mean explain it or fix it...cos it's just not right!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 09, 2007, 05:25:03 PM
The question is, what is up with that glaring logical inconsistency in your argument I posted a couple of posts up? And by what is up with it I mean explain it or fix it...cos it's just not right!

I skipped an implied step.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ∂G/∂x on April 09, 2007, 05:27:15 PM
I implied a skipped step, but that doesnt make me right! What the hell does that mean anyway? Explain youself! In fact, when you have the time, do me the honour of telling me what step this was, or even re-writing the argument as a logical sequence so we can all see its wonderful fault-free beauty and bask in the warm glow of our new knowledge.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: akira on April 09, 2007, 06:00:44 PM
My question is ilustrated with this sketch:
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/bushido_me/pic2.jpg)

Can someone please explain how the gyro works? Cause this may be a way to test if the Earth is flat or round!

That would be interesting.

Let's keep this one up-to-date until we're sent back to the FAQ.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: CommonCents on April 10, 2007, 07:09:15 AM
Everyone bitches about wiki but what the hell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrocompass
Quote
Another, more practical, method is to use weights to force the axis of the compass to remain horizontal with respect to the Earth's surface, but otherwise allow it to rotate freely within that plane. In this case, gravity will apply a torque forcing the compass's axis toward true north. Because the weights will confine the compass's axis to be horizontal with respect to the Earth's surface, the axis can never align with the Earth's axis (except on the Equator) and must realign itself as the Earth rotates. But with respect to the Earth's surface, the compass will appear to be stationary and pointing along the Earth's surface toward the true North Pole.


I quoted that part because it explains how the gyrocompass stays horizontal to the surface
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: leclerc on April 10, 2007, 09:41:48 AM
No, you two just assume that I approach things from a round earth perspective like you do. For me, up is an absolute direction. But you think I'm being ignorant by not seeing things the way you do.

That works the other way around too:
you just assume that we approach things from a flat earth perspective like you do. For us, up isn't an absolute direction. But you think we are being ignorant by not seeing things the way you do.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 10, 2007, 09:43:27 AM
No, you two just assume that I approach things from a round earth perspective like you do. For me, up is an absolute direction. But you think I'm being ignorant by not seeing things the way you do.

That works the other way around too:
you just assume that we approach things from a flat earth perspective like you do. For us, up isn't an absolute direction. But you think we are being ignorant by not seeing things the way you do.

Incorrect, I wasn't dismissing people because of their beliefs.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Knoll on April 10, 2007, 11:40:58 AM
Again the pic that tells it all @,@!
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/shadowknoll/blah.jpg)
have fun.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on April 10, 2007, 01:22:05 PM
Perhaps you should argue which colors are present. You know, something you can wrap your head around.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Midnight on April 10, 2007, 01:27:54 PM
No, you two just assume that I approach things from a round earth perspective like you do. For me, up is an absolute direction. But you think I'm being ignorant by not seeing things the way you do.

That works the other way around too:
you just assume that we approach things from a flat earth perspective like you do. For us, up isn't an absolute direction. But you think we are being ignorant by not seeing things the way you do.

Incorrect, I wasn't dismissing people because of their beliefs.

Now you're just lying. Pathetic.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ∂G/∂x on April 10, 2007, 04:08:02 PM
Narcberry stop saying people are stupid when you're struggling to understand how 'up' for me and you can be different.....even if you don't believe it is you can't seem to even understand how it could be. It doesn't take a genius so don't look down on other peoples intelligence, it doesn't do your illustrious reputation any credit.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Bushido on April 10, 2007, 04:08:56 PM
The only way is UP, baby, ...  ;D
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: omgcitrus on April 10, 2007, 05:14:05 PM
That argument is REALLY weak.
It's all about gravity, which has to exist. (Without gravity, you wouldn't be standing/sitting right now.)
When bubbles go up, they're simply going away from the earth, making it have to do with gravity. I just explained why gravity must exist.
Therefore it's possible for the earth to be round.
In fact, it's impossible for the earth to be flat. I wonder what the side would look like? Or what would happen when you got to the edge?
Hmm. Nobody's ever fallen off the earth.. making no edge. People have literally visited every place on earth. That needs to confirmation. Maybe not every square inch, but ever general area.
I've never met anyone as big an idiot as you people.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: silverhammermba on April 10, 2007, 06:00:06 PM
Narcberry is either:

A) Not really an FE'er. He's just messing with everyone by posting blatantly flawed arguments and then stubbornly defending them with equally flawed reasoning

B) A complete moron who can't understand that "up" is relative. Bubbles move because they are contained in a more dense substance - which means that you'd see the same behavior in either model.

A or B, the conclusion is still JUST STOP ARGUING WITH HIM. He's never going to give up on his position either way.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: TheEngineer on April 10, 2007, 07:21:10 PM

It's all about gravity, which has to exist. (Without gravity, you wouldn't be standing/sitting right now.)
Gravity does not exist.  All that is required is gravitation.

Quote
When bubbles go up, they're simply going away from the earth, making it have to do with gravity. I just explained why gravity must exist.
Bubbles so up, therefore, gravity must exist.  Wow, stellar argument.

Quote
In fact, it's impossible for the earth to be flat.
Ok...why?

Quote
Nobody's ever fallen off the earth.. making no edge.
How would you know someone has not fallen off the earth?  Are they somehow going to come back and tell you about it?

Quote
I've never met anyone as big an idiot as you people.
I agree.  RE'ers just keep getting dumber.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: DakaSha on April 10, 2007, 07:40:07 PM
you know the thing is you guys can twist physics so that that its possible for the earth to be flat in that (and only that) single situation. now if you would take all that physics twisting and try to write it into a single semi-omnipotent formula the equation would be something like: "E=MC Ima stupid fuck"

what im trying to say is if you want to prove that the earth is flat then get some dude who understands physics and (of course) higher math and have said dude put it in numbers. being the stupid fuck that i am i wouldnt understand it but if it lays all the (accepted) work people have produced in the last 500 years to shame then you could probably make the other 6.6 billion people on the planet believe you... as long as nasa doesnt start some major propaganda.


just please dont say: "OMG!!1!! the ground is flat!!! the earth is flat!!1!!! my shoes are flat!1!!1 ive got a limp dick and women have made my life a living hell so i hate them but the bubbles go up in china!11!!!!"

edit: btw we had some bubbles today. they rocked. they went all brownian motion on us but they led us to the theory that soap is actually magical and produces spheres. since we are REers... wierd i know... they led us to the belief that the earth must be made of soap. i have a friend who can prove it too
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on July 21, 2007, 12:19:58 AM
Hey, narcberry, remember this ingenious proof?  :D
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: andrews on July 21, 2007, 07:03:22 AM
[

Quote
In fact, it's impossible for the earth to be flat.
Ok...why?

In the Discussion & Debate section, I have made two new posts on phenomena which I believe is unexplained by a flat Earth. Please comment on them.

I see a lot of FE'ers giving a scenario which is possible but highly unlikely (ie. an ice wall kept secret, a government conspiracy, et cetera). This doesn't disprove the FE theory, it just makes it unlikely and a weak, though possible, theory. However, if I can provide phenomena which cannot be explained by FE theory, then it becomes practically impossible. Do you agree?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on July 22, 2007, 01:34:07 PM
Hey, narcberry, remember this ingenious proof?  :D

It's a straw of irrefutable evidence in the haystack of my posts.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on July 22, 2007, 01:35:35 PM
It certainly is.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on July 24, 2007, 02:28:56 PM
[

Quote
In fact, it's impossible for the earth to be flat.
Ok...why?

In the Discussion & Debate section, I have made two new posts on phenomena which I believe is unexplained by a flat Earth. Please comment on them.

I see a lot of FE'ers giving a scenario which is possible but highly unlikely (ie. an ice wall kept secret, a government conspiracy, et cetera). This doesn't disprove the FE theory, it just makes it unlikely and a weak, though possible, theory. However, if I can provide phenomena which cannot be explained by FE theory, then it becomes practically impossible. Do you agree?

I agree that your up and my up are identical.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ∂G/∂x on July 24, 2007, 06:31:19 PM
My up is different from you guys though.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: andrews on July 24, 2007, 06:33:26 PM
My up is different from you guys though.

Narc's up is kinda weird. Like, if you're on RE, down in Australia, up is towards the North Pole, so you fall off of the Earth. I swear that's not the same up as mine.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ∂G/∂x on July 24, 2007, 06:35:22 PM
Apparently 'up' is an absolute direction.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on September 02, 2007, 08:19:38 PM
My up is different from you guys though.

Narc's up is kinda weird. Like, if you're on RE, down in Australia, up is towards the North Pole, so you fall off of the Earth. I swear that's not the same up as mine.

Well If I say I'm looking 'up', what direction is that to you?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: TheRationalTheist on September 28, 2007, 11:44:00 AM
1: A bubble will go up in China
2: A bubble will go up in the United States
3: If the earth is round, bubbles will rise outwards from the earth
4: Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round



Um...I am not sure what to say, you don't seem to have much knowledge of gravity.
1. A bubble is lighter then/light as air.
2. The bubble does move outwards from the earth going "up" as you said (up is relative to where you are standing).

Conclusion
Your proof is faulty and based on flawed reasoning since your proof for a flat earth proves earth is round.

Yours sincerely, The Rational Theist
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Gunznroses on September 29, 2007, 06:42:34 PM
1: A bubble will go up in China
2: A bubble will go up in the United States
3: If the earth is round, bubbles will rise outwards from the earth
4: Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round



Yes, that explains why the chinese have been falling down into space for the last few centuries, thank you for avoiding the laws of physics, and of course, logic, once again
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on October 02, 2007, 07:59:14 AM
1: A bubble will go up in China
2: A bubble will go up in the United States
3: If the earth is round, bubbles will rise outwards from the earth
4: Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round



Yes, that explains why the chinese have been falling down into space for the last few centuries, thank you for avoiding the laws of physics, and of course, logic, once again

Or it explains how the earth MUST be flat.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on October 02, 2007, 09:39:30 PM
Why is it that threads get locked left and right on this forum but Narcberry's bullshit always seems able to stay open?  ???
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 04, 2008, 11:49:21 PM
Insults wont conjure a round earth. I stand confident in my assertion as no RE'er has rationally objected.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 05, 2008, 12:07:31 AM
Narc you are totally wrong.
Here in Australia the bubbles go up so I know with you in the US the bubbles go down. Stop lying.

WIN FOR RE..


That was about on the level for you right?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 12:15:54 AM
I'm curious. If you are reading a book and they say the word "up", do you need to know their position on the earth to understand what direction that is?

So next time someone says, "I looked up," please ask the obvious RE followup question, "what was your latitude and longitude at the time?"
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 05, 2008, 12:19:57 AM
If you are standing back to back with my and I say walk to your left. Will you be upset when I clout you over the head for walking in the wrong direction?

I don't know how much further we can break it down for you Narc. We must just about be at the Planck limit here.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 12:21:29 AM
Thanks for avoiding the question. Good to see you at least possess the wit to know a losing battle when presented with one.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 05, 2008, 12:26:01 AM
I thought you would be all for me posting in kind? ???

In answer to your question, no. Up is always towards the sky.

You can make a bubble go towards the ground if you accelerate a container of water up fast enough. Does that change the direction of up?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 12:29:19 AM
So, in order for you to understand what is meant by up, you need an absolute position on the surface of earth.

How does up work when on the moon or mars? Is it still towards the earth sky? Or did you mean away from the earths core? Does that mean 'up' is an absolute direction for all celestial bodies except the earth? Why is earth the only place where 'up' has a relative meaning? Does RE hold that the earth is the only spherical object?

I'm truly confused by your silly assertions. Please answer as many questions as you know how, or 2, whichever is greater.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 05, 2008, 12:46:54 AM
No, your position isn't required to be understood. "Up" is term for human orientation.
Up can work however you want it to.
If you want.
No.
No.
Because of the people using the word.
No.

Would you rather talk coordinates and vectors?

What is so silly here?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 10:53:47 AM
What is so silly is that RE'ers hold that 'up' is both:
1) simple
2) works however you want it to

By those definitions, I've used it consistently with RE or FE.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 05, 2008, 12:05:30 PM
What is so silly is that RE'ers hold that 'up' is both:
1) simple
2) works however you want it to

By those definitions, I've used it consistently with RE or FE.
up is just a word, as has been stated before if you are going to do it for real then you would use vectors and coordinates. "Up" usually denotes which way will give me a positive answer. I could make "up" point at my feet and then release a helium balloon and its displacement would be negative instead of positive
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: lindelof on August 05, 2008, 02:22:22 PM

1: Bob's right hand is on his right.
2: Ted's right hand is to his right.
3: If they were facing different directions, their hands would be in different directions.
4: As their hands are both on their right they are facing the same way.


This argument can be used on any pair of people, therefore all people are facing the same direction.

Q.E.D.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 03:58:24 PM
up is just a word

Earth is just a word...

@lindorf,
We're talking about 'up'. This is quite obvious from the many posts prior to you poorly applied analogy.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 05, 2008, 04:58:39 PM
No Narc

Earth is the name of physical object.

Up is the word for a concept.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 06:26:07 PM
Got it, 'up' is meaningless on RE.
So if it's so meaningless, why all the debate?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 05, 2008, 08:06:41 PM
Got it, 'up' is meaningless on RE.
So if it's so meaningless, why all the debate?
We dont know since you are the one who brought it up in the first place
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 08:13:45 PM
Well what do you know about RE?
And I brought it up because it shows that FE is consistent and RE is not.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 05, 2008, 09:19:21 PM
Debate? No debate here, just a continual correction of your errors.
You don't even have the backing of other FE's.

There is no consistency in FE theory. In one person's model there are inconsistencies let alone between the multitude of theories.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 09:23:23 PM
Unlike popularity theorists, my studies do not require the popular vote. I base my reasoning on evidence.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 05, 2008, 10:15:23 PM
Well what do you know about RE?
And I brought it up because it shows that FE is consistent and RE is not.
how So?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 10:21:22 PM
RE cannot predict what 'up' is.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 05, 2008, 10:24:08 PM
RE cannot predict what 'up' is.
why would we need to?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 10:27:28 PM
Because RE uses it. If it uses something it cannot define... well.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 05, 2008, 10:28:56 PM
Because RE uses it. If it uses something it cannot define... well.
up is the direction that will be positive numbers. so tell me why we need to provide a single direction for that again?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 10:30:37 PM
Explain this:
up is the direction that will be positive numbers.

And I'll answer this:
so tell me why we need to provide a single direction for that again?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 05, 2008, 10:32:31 PM
when you set up your coordinate system you will denote "up" as the direction that falls into the first quadrant of your graph, so that is why we typically use "up" as the region above our heads, after all it would look wierd if your altitude was a negative number
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 10:34:40 PM
So you agree, 'up' is a universal direction?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 05, 2008, 10:37:17 PM
up is whatever you want it to be, if you were drilling a mine shaft would it not be a bit easier to make "up" point towads the ground so as you dig deeper you will get a positive result?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 10:39:10 PM
So if you were victim to an avalanche, and could not orientate yourself; digging in *any* direction will get you 'up' and out?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 05, 2008, 10:40:45 PM
So if you were victim to an avalanche, and could not orientate yourself; digging in *any* direction will get you 'up' and out?
no digging toward the surface will get me out, if I made my "up" in the wrong direction, I would just dig a negative distance from my origin
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 10:41:19 PM
So 'up' can be towards the surface of the earth?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 05, 2008, 10:42:37 PM
So 'up' can be towards the surface of the earth?
"UP" is the first quadrant in your coordinate system

Edit: it could also be in the second quadrant as well
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 05, 2008, 11:12:31 PM
..right, as you mentioned before, it can be whatever you want it to be.
Why not q3 and 4?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 05, 2008, 11:35:11 PM
..right, as you mentioned before, it can be whatever you want it to be.
Why not q3 and 4?
those are negative numbers, but I guess if you really want to make that "up" then I guess you can. It is just not how I was taught
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 06, 2008, 06:26:39 AM
Up is an arbitrarily selected heading from your origin point. It has nothing to do with RE theory.

How is this different to FE?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Parsifal on August 06, 2008, 06:29:55 AM
Asking which way is "up" on a Round Earth is like asking which way is "out" from the centre of a ball. If you attempt to use this reasoning to prove that a Round Earth can't exist, then one could also attempt to use it to show that a ball can't exist.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Mrs. Peach on August 06, 2008, 06:37:23 AM
Up is an arbitrarily selected heading from your origin point. It has nothing to do with RE theory.

How is this different to FE?

It demonstrates that the FES has a sense of humor.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 06, 2008, 06:40:54 AM
Up is an arbitrarily selected heading from your origin point. It has nothing to do with RE theory.

How is this different to FE?

It demonstrates that the FES has a sense of humor.

Wow, that's excellent. =)
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ghazwozza on August 06, 2008, 08:43:18 AM
Wow, Narc, you really do have trouble understanding simple concepts. Here, let me repost something I just posted on another thread:

In a gravitational field, "up" is almost always* defined to point exactly opposite to the direction of acceleration due to gravity.

Mathematically, if u have a gravitational potential given by a function G(x,y,z) then "up" points in the direction of Grad G (usually written ∇G).

*The only exception would be in an accelerating system e.g. a spacecraft.
EDIT: Or you could define "up" differently if it would make things easier, like cbarnett said, but peple usually don't.

As you can see, on Earth "up" will always be towards the sky and away from the centre of the Earth. Objects will always fall "down". On the moon, "up" will be away from the centre of the moon.

Do you understand this definition? Have you got any problems with it?

Of course, this definition would only work in RET.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 06, 2008, 03:13:11 PM
So in an airplane, which is flying through the sky, which way is up?
RE'ers can't even figure out what they mean when they say 'up'.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 06, 2008, 03:33:36 PM
which way is up in FET?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 06, 2008, 04:26:54 PM
The direction of earths acceleration.

See how simple it is to have a theory that can give accurate definitions?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 06, 2008, 04:29:04 PM
The direction of earths acceleration.

See how simple it is to have a theory that can give accurate definitions?
why is that up
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 06, 2008, 04:32:20 PM
By definition.

Now that I've managed to confront, and correctly answer your question, feel free to answer mine.

So in an airplane, which is flying through the sky, which way is up?
RE'ers can't even figure out what they mean when they say 'up'.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 06, 2008, 04:33:34 PM
By definition.

Now that I've managed to confront, and correctly answer your question, feel free to answer mine.

So in an airplane, which is flying through the sky, which way is up?
RE'ers can't even figure out what they mean when they say 'up'.
So if I want to track that airplanes descent but I do not want to deal with negative numbers when looking at its displacement from its origin I am out of luck?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 06, 2008, 05:34:40 PM
We do have an incredibly precise definition for up (RE'ers.) Given a polar coordinate system with the center of the earth as the origin, up is looking in a direction with increasing r. Of course, you are using Cartesian coordinates since you think the earth is flat, so I could use the same argument:

If up is up is up, then why do bubbles not always float up in a Flat Earth? With increasing r, we many times end up having up is up is left, or up is up is right. Therefore, since bubbles don't always float up in FET, it is very unscientific.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 06, 2008, 05:52:36 PM
3D polar coordinate system, origin'ed at the center of earth...  ::)
So this brings us back to Mars having a universal 'up' direction away from earth. This means that the universal 'up' is universal across the universe... except on earth, where it is in all directions simultaneously depending on your current position on or around earth.

Sounds like Occam definitely favors FET!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 06, 2008, 05:55:43 PM
We know you understand us Narc and are aware you are being intentionally obtuse. Some of your previous comments allude to some kind of intellect behind that screen name.

My question, what are you really arguing about? You've gone from debating to trolling.

Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 06, 2008, 06:22:46 PM
3D polar coordinate system, origin'ed at the center of earth...  ::)
So this brings us back to Mars having a universal 'up' direction away from earth. This means that the universal 'up' is universal across the universe... except on earth, where it is in all directions simultaneously depending on your current position on or around earth.

Sounds like Occam definitely favors FET!

Ok, I tried to put it into a bite-size explanation for you, but you must realize that all Galilean Co-ordinate systems are equivalent (Galilean Co-ordinate systems are those that are in constant, non-rotational motion.) This is the main thing that Special Relativity is based on. Therefore there is no absolute up. If you are to take Special Relativity, you have to accept that too.

Go here if you want to learn about how physics works in these systems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean_transformation
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 06, 2008, 07:32:40 PM
So you're applying a "constant, non-rotational motion" coordinate system to a planet that is neither constant nor motionless.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 06, 2008, 09:29:20 PM
So you're applying a "constant, non-rotational motion" coordinate system to a planet that is neither constant nor motionless.

You are correct at that, I was just trying to describe that the laws of physics have no preference towards one direction. I admit that under a gravitational field or acceleration, they are described to be different, but we still have rules that describe those translations and they still don't care about direction. This non-Copernican view that our reference frame is THE reference frame is a naive and unscientific view, disproven hundreds of years ago, and that is my point. Up is up is no always up. It is relative.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 06, 2008, 10:32:43 PM
Translation:
RE defines things to be one thing under certain circumstances, and another thing in other circumstances. RE can wave it's magical wand and still be science regardless of these inconsistencies.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 06, 2008, 10:48:19 PM
Translation:
RE defines things to be one thing under certain circumstances, and another thing in other circumstances. RE can wave it's magical wand and still be science regardless of these inconsistencies.

No, the laws of physics do not favor one "magical" direction. It is the same thing in all circumstances, only with a different relative orientation in space. I don't know whether your original statement was serious or not, but it is certainly more than satisfactorily explained under the RE model.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 06, 2008, 10:49:24 PM
If it's so easily explained, why have RE'ers been avoiding my ever so simple questions?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 06, 2008, 11:32:29 PM
If it's so easily explained, why have RE'ers been avoiding my ever so simple questions?

I didn't avoid it, I answered it. "Up" is relative. Just like "Left" and "Right" are relative.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 06, 2008, 11:39:26 PM
Translation:
RE defines things to be one thing under certain circumstances, and another thing in other circumstances. RE can wave it's magical wand and still be science regardless of these inconsistencies.
since when is up a scientific term anyways ???
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 06, 2008, 11:52:51 PM
If it's so easily explained, why have RE'ers been avoiding my ever so simple questions?

I didn't avoid it, I answered it. "Up" is relative. Just like "Left" and "Right" are relative.

So 'up' is meaningless in RE, much like every other term.

Don't worry, FE still has meaning and consistency.

Thanks for confirming this.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 06, 2008, 11:54:46 PM
Translation:
RE defines things to be one thing under certain circumstances, and another thing in other circumstances. RE can wave it's magical wand and still be science regardless of these inconsistencies.
since when is up a scientific term anyways ???
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 07, 2008, 12:14:19 AM
If it's so easily explained, why have RE'ers been avoiding my ever so simple questions?

I didn't avoid it, I answered it. "Up" is relative. Just like "Left" and "Right" are relative.

So 'up' is meaningless in RE, much like every other term.

Don't worry, FE still has meaning and consistency.

Thanks for confirming this.

Your question has been answered multiple times with the same response by many people. Contrast this to Fe responses which differ from post to post.

FE is consistently inconsistent. But we can't blame FE. Your failure to grasp a simple concept can't be attributed to FE theory.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Dinosaur Jesus on August 07, 2008, 01:10:00 AM
Translation:
RE defines things to be one thing under certain circumstances, and another thing in other circumstances. RE can wave it's magical wand and still be science regardless of these inconsistencies.


Replace RE with FE and that statement still stands. Especially with UA Theory.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: markjo on August 07, 2008, 05:48:12 AM
If it's so easily explained, why have RE'ers been avoiding my ever so simple questions?

I didn't avoid it, I answered it. "Up" is relative. Just like "Left" and "Right" are relative.

So 'up' is meaningless in RE, much like every other term.

Don't worry, FE still has meaning and consistency.

Thanks for confirming this.

So, which way is left in FE?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: platypus on August 07, 2008, 07:45:35 AM
Regardless of whether we talk about FE or RE, left is still a relative position.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: markjo on August 07, 2008, 07:59:31 AM
Regardless of whether we talk about FE or RE, left is still a relative position.

Actually, I was asking Narcberry (since he is the one confused about relative directions), but thanks for playing anyways.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: platypus on August 07, 2008, 08:02:07 AM
Regardless of whether we talk about FE or RE, left is still a relative position.

Actually, I was asking Narcberry (since he is the one confused about relative directions), but thanks for playing anyways.

Ah, I see your point.  We can play semantics all day long.  I think I'll vacate this thread.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: The Creep on August 07, 2008, 12:59:22 PM
1: A bubble will go up in China
2: A bubble will go up in the United States
3: If the earth is round, bubbles will rise outwards from the earth
4: Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round



This has to be the single most retarded thing ive ever read. Congratulations.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 07, 2008, 03:09:39 PM
I know, RET is pretty ridiculous. I'm very happy someone else can recognize it for what it is.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 07, 2008, 07:21:06 PM
I know, RET is pretty ridiculous. I'm very happy someone else can recognize it for what it is.

I don't think you are serious, but in case you really didn't understand what he was saying, he was saying your argument (against RE) was retarded. Just clarifying...
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 07, 2008, 07:52:43 PM
Actually he was saying that RET is retarded because it can't tell which way up is.
And I completely agree.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 07, 2008, 07:58:31 PM
Actually he was saying that RET is retarded because it can't tell which way up is.
And I completely agree.
what are you talking about? Every time I solve a problem I know exactly which direction is "up"
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 07, 2008, 08:01:56 PM
Actually he was saying that RET is retarded because it can't tell which way up is.
And I completely agree.

Do the rest of you think Narc is even aware of his statements and how incredibly alone he is with this topic?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 07, 2008, 08:03:00 PM
what are you talking about? Every time I solve a problem I know exactly which direction is "up"

How can you?

In RE up changes (taken from you RE'ers in this thread):
1) with your mood, as it can mean anything you want it to be
2) with your location on earth, and is different for every geographical point
3) with your altitude
4) with your heads position
5) with your company

I'd like you to show how you keep all 5 of those constant during your problem solving.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 07, 2008, 08:09:00 PM
what are you talking about? Every time I solve a problem I know exactly which direction is "up"

How can you?

In RE up changes (taken from you RE'ers in this thread):
1) with your mood, as it can mean anything you want it to be
2) with your location on earth, and is different for every geographical point
3) with your altitude
4) with your heads position
5) with your company

I'd like you to show how you keep all 5 of those constant during your problem solving.
give me a problem in FE or RE and I will Show you "up"
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: dyno on August 07, 2008, 08:11:01 PM
Cbarnett: he isn't looking for proof or problem solving. He is trolling.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 07, 2008, 08:13:18 PM
(http://www.setv.org/jpgs/voyager.jpg)

Which direction is up based on RET? (That means explain why your answer is based on RET)
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 07, 2008, 08:36:17 PM
1: A person facing me says something is their right
2: But I see that it is actually to my left
3: If the earth is flat, something MUST be to the left or right definitely
4: FE does not compensate for this, thus it is not a viable theory

See, I can do it too!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 07, 2008, 08:40:50 PM
Is that your way of saying, "Narcberry, I guess I have no way to answer your question. Thanks for showing me my error." ?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on August 07, 2008, 08:46:17 PM
Left is west.  Everybody knows that.  ::)
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 07, 2008, 08:53:53 PM
(http://www.setv.org/jpgs/voyager.jpg)

Which direction is up based on RET? (That means explain why your answer is based on RET)
what am I computing?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 07, 2008, 09:35:14 PM
what am I computing?

Which direction is up based on RET? (That means explain why your answer is based on RET)
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 07, 2008, 10:26:06 PM
what am I computing?

Which direction is up based on RET? (That means explain why your answer is based on RET)

I already told you, "up" has a relative meaning. If you can't comprehend that answer... well... all hope is lost.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 07, 2008, 10:51:44 PM
(http://www.setv.org/jpgs/voyager.jpg)

Which direction is up based on RET? (That means explain why your answer is based on RET)
what am I computing?
let me be more specific, what problem relating to this spacecraft do you want me to solve and then I will tell you which way is up
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Mrs. Peach on August 07, 2008, 11:14:38 PM
He wants to know which way is up.  >:(
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 07, 2008, 11:28:51 PM
He wants to know which way is up.  >:(

That is not possible to tell if there is no information given on the acceleration of the observer. Up is relative.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 08, 2008, 12:37:08 AM
Which Way is up using the FE model?


(http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/p/2007/425_4SN1987Asupernova550x41.jpg)
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Jack on August 08, 2008, 02:18:55 AM
^
 |
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 08, 2008, 10:24:51 AM
^
 |

But I just flipped my monitor over and that's not the direction in which bubbles float! Therefore FE is obsolete and stupid! Thanks for pointing me in the right direction (no pun intended.)
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ghazwozza on August 08, 2008, 03:10:52 PM
You seem to have competely ignored my definition. Is it a bit too tricky for you?

In a gravitational field, "up" is almost always* defined to point exactly opposite to the direction of acceleration due to gravity.

Mathematically, if u have a gravitational potential given by a function G(x,y,z) then "up" points in the direction of Grad G (usually written ∇G).

*The only exception would be in an accelerating system e.g. a spacecraft.
EDIT: Or you could define "up" differently if it would make things easier, like cbarnett said, but peple usually don't.

Alternatively, here's a simpler one:

"Down" is the direction objects accelerate when released. "Up" is the opposite of "down"

There! An unambiguous and simple definition.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 08, 2008, 03:44:12 PM
So I throw a ball away from the ground. When my hand releases the ball, it travels away from the surface of earth. This is down?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 08, 2008, 03:53:09 PM
So I throw a ball away from the ground. When my hand releases the ball, it travels away from the surface of earth. This is down?

When it leaves your hand, it accelerates downward (towards the center of the earth)... Do you understand anything we tell you?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ghazwozza on August 08, 2008, 03:54:43 PM
So I throw a ball away from the ground. When my hand releases the ball, it travels away from the surface of earth. This is down?

That is one of the most retarded things I've heard since theflatearthsociety.org came back up.

"Down" is the direction objects accelerate when released. "Up" is the opposite of "down"

The ball will travel away from the Earth but accelerate towards it. Comprende?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ghazwozza on August 08, 2008, 03:55:39 PM
Ah, I see mxmm got there before me.

So Narc, are you goign to answer us or just ignore us, as you normally do with tricky responses?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 08, 2008, 04:09:18 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to answer my simple question. There are at least 4 of you ignoring it.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 08, 2008, 04:19:46 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to answer my simple question. There are at least 4 of you ignoring it.

But you sadly don't understand, we have already answered it for 9 pages. If you aren't smart enough to accept something that you didn't think of yourself, fine. Just don't critique us like you actually can disprove any of our definitions.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 08, 2008, 05:45:41 PM
The last 9 pages have said:
FE has a consistent predictable answer.
RE has a different answer each time you ask the question.


I'm sorry guys, but FE simply won this one.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 08, 2008, 05:53:42 PM
The last 9 pages have said:
FE has a consistent predictable answer.
RE has a different answer each time you ask the question.


I'm sorry guys, but FE simply won this one.

Inconsistencies in the people who believe a scientific theory (but misunderstand it) doesn't make a theory wrong.

If I were to use that logic, I could say that since all your theories on certain phenomena of nature (FE'ers) are basically incompatible, then I could say RE wins all of them.

Let me stress this again, you can not battle an argument by pointing to some of its believers who misunderstand it and say "A-ha! It must therefore be invalid." You must make a logical argument against it, which have yet to do.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: General Douchebag on August 08, 2008, 06:13:03 PM
Not until you make a logical answer which you can all agree on, until then there's no point in arguing with 4 or 5 different people.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 08, 2008, 06:13:57 PM
Not until you make a logical answer which you can all agree on, until then there's no point in arguing with 4 or 5 different people.

But the thing is... we all say it is relative... How is that inconsistent?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: General Douchebag on August 08, 2008, 06:22:48 PM
We say it isn't. There really isn't much logical arguing you can do with "up", so, um... Your retarted.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 08, 2008, 07:02:50 PM
I'm still waiting for someone to answer my simple question. There are at least 4 of you ignoring it.

Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black.  I wouldn't talk about people ignoring your questions when you do the same all the time.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: bobbyg2 on August 08, 2008, 07:14:04 PM
Up is relative to your position of Earth or any other planet. Up is the direction opposite of the pull of gravity.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 08, 2008, 07:17:05 PM
But the thing is... we all say it is relative... How is that inconsistent?

Because you define relative as:
Above your head, being relative to each person
Against your acceleration, being relative to each object
Towards the sky, being relative to your position
Away from earth, being relative to your definition of earth
Whatever you want it to be, being relative to your mood


Sure they are all relative, but you can't honestly be saying those are consistent.

Also, no answer from RE still. ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FE!!!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: bobbyg2 on August 08, 2008, 07:38:26 PM
There is no universal up. You're basing your assumptions on your belief that the Earth is flat.

Up is the direction opposite of the pull of gravity on you.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 08, 2008, 07:54:51 PM
But the thing is... we all say it is relative... How is that inconsistent?

Because you define relative as:
Above your head, being relative to each person
Against your acceleration, being relative to each object
Towards the sky, being relative to your position
Away from earth, being relative to your definition of earth
Whatever you want it to be, being relative to your mood


Sure they are all relative, but you can't honestly be saying those are consistent.

Also, no answer from RE still. ANOTHER VICTORY FOR FE!!!

That is because we are assuming that we are on the surface of the earth. Their generalizations are very good most of the time, but the most technical depends on the direction of acceleration.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 08, 2008, 08:47:49 PM
Even on earth that doesn't make sense. Look at 3 scenarios:
1) In an elevator going away from the surface of earth. Your acceleration would be away from the center of earth.
2) Sitting in a chair, posting on FES. You are not accelerating away or towards the center of earth.
3) Jumping off something. Your acceleration would be towards the center of earth.

All 3 scenarios are quite likely. All 3 scenarios denote a different 'up' by RE'ers definitions.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Theorist on August 08, 2008, 09:24:40 PM
1: A bubble will go up in China
2: A bubble will go up in the United States
3: If the earth is round, bubbles will rise outwards from the earth
4: Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round

1 - True.
2 - True.
3 - True.
4 - False.

On a spherical earth, "up" is "outwards" hence negating all 4 points.

Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 08, 2008, 09:26:47 PM
Thanks for adding yet another possible RE definition of up.
How do you define "outwards"?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 08, 2008, 09:29:50 PM
Even on earth that doesn't make sense. Look at 3 scenarios:
1) In an elevator going away from the surface of earth. Your acceleration would be away from the center of earth.
2) Sitting in a chair, posting on FES. You are not accelerating away or towards the center of earth.
3) Jumping off something. Your acceleration would be towards the center of earth.

All 3 scenarios are quite likely. All 3 scenarios denote a different 'up' by RE'ers definitions.

Let me introduce the general principle of relativity (which Einstein uses in GR). One can not tell whether he is being accelerated by a rocket or by gravity without context. That is, an acceleration can be seen as gravity or as a spinning disc or as an accelerating rocket. I will fit that into my explanations.

1) If it is going away from the center of the earth, one feels an acceleration of greater than 1 g from the center of the earth. Hence, "up" is away from the center of the earth.

2) While you are sitting you are being accelerated by the ground below you away from earth at a rate of 1 g. Therefore up is away from the center of the earth.

3) We are talking about perceived accelerations, so in freefall, there is no "up." If everything were in freefall, bubbles would not have a definite "up" to go up to.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 08, 2008, 09:32:15 PM
1g is not an acceleration, it's a force.
You lose.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 08, 2008, 09:39:25 PM
1g is not an acceleration, it's a force.
You lose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force

"g-force (also G-force, g-load) is a measurement of an object's acceleration expressed in gs." -Topic sentence

You lose.

EDIT: If you're really interested, I recommend tuning into one of the first few sentences: "Note that g-force is a misnomer, because it is about acceleration (m/s2)."
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 08, 2008, 09:54:03 PM
2) While you are sitting you are being accelerated by the ground below you away from earth at a rate of 1 g. Therefore up is away from the center of the earth.

Explain this. If 1g is an acceleration, why am I not accelerating towards the earths center? I seem to stay in my chair.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 08, 2008, 09:58:30 PM
2) While you are sitting you are being accelerated by the ground below you away from earth at a rate of 1 g. Therefore up is away from the center of the earth.

Explain this. If 1g is an acceleration, why am I not accelerating towards the earths center? I seem to stay in my chair.

Because instead of freefall, the ground is accelerating you upwards at the rate of 1 g. Anything that perfectly counters gravity makes you accelerate at this point. This makes more sense if you see gravity as an object retaining its inertia. You will not feel an acceleration to the the center of the earth simply because inertia, even if it is accelerating relative to objects around it, does not give you the perception of acceleration. It is freefall. However, when you perfectly counter this inertia (gravity) you sense an acceleration keeping you in the same place.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 08, 2008, 10:02:34 PM
Sow how am I accelerating exactly?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Theorist on August 08, 2008, 10:28:06 PM
Thanks for adding yet another possible RE definition of up.
How do you define "outwards"?

In RE theory "outwards" and "up" are the same thing.

In FE theory I guess there is only "up" (as far as the acceleration goes, up is away from the force causing the acceleration upwards). This cannot be defined as "outwards" though, only "up" in FE theory.

You said, from RE theory:
"Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round"

In RE theory, up = outwards.

So then I guess you're right, in RE theory they have to use up to mean outwards and outwards to mean up, which makes less sense than than the FE theory. Occums Razor favours the FE theory in this case it seems, requiring more complications to explain this upwards = outwards claim in RE theory. Remember, the ONLY reason a RE'er would say up = outwards is because this is the only way they can make the RE theory stick - it doesn't really stick though when they are just claiming up = out because they are ALREADY claiming the earth is spherical. To claim that upwards = outwards (by the RE theorist) explains... nothing. All it explains is they think up = outwards, a convenient but wrong explanation, wrong in FE theory, right in RE theory.

Alright narcberry you win this one.  :-*


Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 08, 2008, 10:31:41 PM
Another victory for FE!!!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: bobbyg2 on August 08, 2008, 10:52:34 PM
This is ridiculous...
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: mxmm on August 08, 2008, 11:02:56 PM
Thanks for adding yet another possible RE definition of up.
How do you define "outwards"?

In RE theory "outwards" and "up" are the same thing.

In FE theory I guess there is only "up" (as far as the acceleration goes, up is away from the force causing the acceleration upwards). This cannot be defined as "outwards" though, only "up" in FE theory.

You said, from RE theory:
"Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round"

In RE theory, up = outwards.

So then I guess you're right, in RE theory they have to use up to mean outwards and outwards to mean up, which makes less sense than than the FE theory. Occums Razor favours the FE theory in this case it seems, requiring more complications to explain this upwards = outwards claim in RE theory. Remember, the ONLY reason a RE'er would say up = outwards is because this is the only way they can make the RE theory stick - it doesn't really stick though when they are just claiming up = out because they are ALREADY claiming the earth is spherical. To claim that upwards = outwards (by the RE theorist) explains... nothing. All it explains is they thing up = outwards, a convenient but wrong explanation, wrong in FE theory, right in RE theory.

Alright narcberry you win this one.  :-*




... Despite the fact that Occam's Razor is a logical fallacy, a complicated definition does not mean that a certain theory is inferior. It simply means that there is a more complicated web of basic things working together (e.g. gravity, buoyancy, etc.) Plus, if up is seen as the direction if acceleration then there wouldn't be a problem with the bubble in both theories, making this entire argument rather moot.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 09, 2008, 01:11:22 AM
Another victory for FE!!!
here is a good hypothetical "up" question for you:  You are deep sea diving and there is no light whatsoever and due to the currents undderwater you get spun in every direction for 10 minutes, after you stop you must point "up", which way do you point?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 09, 2008, 03:03:45 AM
Another victory for FE!!!
here is a good hypothetical "up" question for you:  You are deep sea diving and there is no light whatsoever and due to the currents undderwater you get spun in every direction for 10 minutes, after you stop you must point "up", which way do you point?

Whichever way the bubbles go.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 09, 2008, 03:09:00 AM
Another victory for FE!!!
here is a good hypothetical "up" question for you:  You are deep sea diving and there is no light whatsoever and due to the currents undderwater you get spun in every direction for 10 minutes, after you stop you must point "up", which way do you point?

Whichever way the bubbles go.
you are wearing a rebreather
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ghazwozza on August 09, 2008, 05:48:45 AM
Stop this madness, people! Narcberry seems unable to understand that all the definitions we have given are equivalent in most circumstances, so let's just get one definition for "up" and make Narc shut up with his moronic questions. So how's this:

"Up" is opposite to the direction a free object accelerates due to gravity (or gravitation, to use Engy's terms).

Can we all agree on this?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Parsifal on August 09, 2008, 05:51:23 AM
Can we all agree on this?

No. Inertial objects do not accelerate.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ghazwozza on August 09, 2008, 06:13:54 AM
Can we all agree on this?

No. Inertial objects do not accelerate.

Just for a second, can we work in a Newtonian system? I can't be bothered to redefine "up" to work with GR.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Parsifal on August 09, 2008, 06:22:37 AM
No. Inertial objects do not accelerate.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: bobbyg2 on August 09, 2008, 10:13:21 AM
They do when gravity pulls on them.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Parsifal on August 09, 2008, 10:14:36 AM
They do when gravity pulls on them.

Fictitious forces usually don't pull on things very strongly.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: bobbyg2 on August 09, 2008, 10:22:53 AM
They do when these "fictitious" forces aren't actually fictitious.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Parsifal on August 09, 2008, 10:28:03 AM
They do when these "fictitious" forces aren't actually fictitious.

Most of us have moved on from nineteenth century physics. There's an empty seat if you'd like to join us someday.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: markjo on August 09, 2008, 11:47:18 AM
They do when gravity pulls on them.

Fictitious forces usually don't pull on things very strongly.

Have you ever been in a car when someone slams on the brakes?  Tell me that the fictitious force "pushing" you forwards didn't feel real.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ghazwozza on August 09, 2008, 02:39:56 PM
You people are difficult. OK: here's a definition of "up" that is consistent with GR:

"Up" is the direction of fastest increasing gravitational potential.

In a Newtonian system, this is equivalent to my previous definition ("up" is opposite to the direction objects fall), but also works with GR.
Can we all agree on this?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Josef on August 09, 2008, 02:48:24 PM
1: A bubble will go up in China
2: A bubble will go up in the United States
3: If the earth is round, bubbles will rise outwards from the earth
4: Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round

If the earth is round, it is round because of gravitation. And you do believe in gravitation.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Theorist on August 09, 2008, 03:05:11 PM
Its easy though:

RE Theory:
1 - Up = outward.
2 - Up = up + outward.
3 - Outward = up.
4 - Outward = outward + up.

Confused? I am.

In RE theory, the words "up" and "outwards" have to mean exactly the same thing for the earth to be a sphere. In RE, anything traveling upwards at 90 degrees to the earths surface is "up" and also it is "outwards" at the same time. "Up" and "outwards" are interchangeable words in RE theory. A quick look in the dictionary shows us that up is not outwards, although I do not claim an English Dictionary to be 100% applicable here, lets use it to see what the words "up" and "outwards" mean as described by an English Dictionary:

Up
1. to, toward, or in a more elevated position: to climb up to the top of a ladder.
2. to or in an erect position: to stand up.
3. out of bed: to get up.
4. above the horizon: The moon came up.
5. to or at any point that is considered higher.

Outward
1. proceeding or directed toward the outside or exterior, or away from a central point: the outward flow of gold; the outward part of a voyage.
2. pertaining to or being what is seen or apparent, as distinguished from the underlying nature, facts, etc.; pertaining to surface qualities only; superficial: outward appearances.
3. belonging or pertaining to external actions or appearances, as opposed to inner feelings, mental states, etc.: an outward show of grief.
4. that lies toward the outside; that is on the outer side; exterior: an outward court.
5. of or pertaining to the outside, outer surface, or exterior: to make repairs on the outward walls of a house.

This shows us straight away that the words "up" and "outwards" mean entirely different things in the English language - but to pass off a spherical Earth, RE'ers must use made up meanings somewhere along the way in order to marry the word "up" with the word "outwards" and claim that standing on earth throwing something up is to also at the same time throw it outwards.

If an RE theorist thinks, that he is throwing a ball "up" towards space, he also thinks he is throwing a ball "outwards" towards space. This cannot work in FE theory, because there can't be "outwards" only "up".

The FE theorist cannot explain this away on behalf of the RE theorist, nor can the FE theorist help the RE theorist out in any way with this error, except to explain as I have here that they are using two different words with 2 different meanings to describe the same thing, which is an impossibility because the dictionary, under "outwards" doesn't mention the word "up" and under the word "up" it does not mention the word "outwards".

I am not "splitting hairs" or "arguing semantics" or "nit-picking" or being "wrong" here.

The RE theorist himself also cannot explain why he uses the two differing words "up" and "outward" interchangeably either.

FE Theory:
1 - Up is up.
2 - Outward is outward.

Up is simply a one directional thing, away from the acceleration that is happening underneath.

Outwards is a scary concept to the FE theorist, it means passing beyond the wall of the cylindrical tube we are going up inside.

Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ghazwozza on August 09, 2008, 03:10:53 PM
I fail to see your problem, Theorist. The only reason "up" and "outwards" are not the same in the English language is because locally the Earth appears flat (because it is so big), but "up" and "outwards" only mean the same thing on a large body.

Just look at my definition above: "up" and "outwards" are clearly the same.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Theorist on August 09, 2008, 03:15:33 PM
The only reason "up" and "outwards" are not the same in the English language is because locally the Earth appears flat (because it is so big), but "up" and "outwards" only mean the same thing on a large body.

So basically this is to say the earth is flat then yes?

Just look at my definition above: "up" and "outwards" are clearly the same.

You need to be on a spherical earth for that to be true.

Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 09, 2008, 03:16:07 PM
here is a good hypothetical "up" question for you:  You are deep sea diving and there is no light whatsoever and due to the currents undderwater you get spun in every direction for 10 minutes, after you stop you must point "up", which way do you point?

You are quite possibly the dumbest RE'er on these boards. Congratulations.

Just because 'up' is universal, doesn't mean a dazed diver of the dark deeps is going to know where it is. Whether he can identify up or not, the up direction would be towards the waters surface (as that happens to be the direction the earth is accelerating). Of course, we can't tell him this, I hope you weren't expecting us to.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Theorist on August 09, 2008, 03:38:49 PM
I didn't think of this before so will reply to the whole quote again:

I fail to see your problem, Theorist. The only reason "up" and "outwards" are not the same in the English language is because locally the Earth appears flat (because it is so big), but "up" and "outwards" only mean the same thing on a large body.

Just look at my definition above: "up" and "outwards" are clearly the same.

01. The English Dictionary is not compiled according to RE theory or FE theory.

02. The English Dictionary is only compiled by putting definitions to words.

03. To communicate properly, we need to use dictionary definitions, otherwise we are wrong.

04. RE theory has to misuse these words to artificially support RE theory.

05. To say "up = outward" is a misnomer.

06. RE theory needs to use this nonsense to construct the appearance of "up" being "outward".

07. Doing this with the two words is to artificially support the spherical earth model.

08. Artificial support is not allowed, only legitimate factual confirmations, or sound theory.

09. Interchanging the word "up" and "outward" is not a legitimate argument or fact, it is wrong.

10. RE loses this one hands down.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 09, 2008, 03:40:10 PM
here is a good hypothetical "up" question for you:  You are deep sea diving and there is no light whatsoever and due to the currents undderwater you get spun in every direction for 10 minutes, after you stop you must point "up", which way do you point?

You are quite possibly the dumbest RE'er on these boards. Congratulations.

Just because 'up' is universal, doesn't mean a dazed diver of the dark deeps is going to know where it is. Whether he can identify up or not, the up direction would be towards the waters surface (as that happens to be the direction the earth is accelerating). Of course, we can't tell him this, I hope you weren't expecting us to.
so why is that up
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 09, 2008, 03:47:57 PM
By definition.

Would be nice to see you RE'ers agree on a definition for up, seeing as you are all arguing in different ways.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: cbarnett97 on August 09, 2008, 03:49:20 PM
By definition.

Would be nice to see you RE'ers agree on a definition for up, seeing as you are all arguing in different ways.
what is the FE definition of left again?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Theorist on August 09, 2008, 03:50:25 PM
By definition.

Would be nice to see you RE'ers agree on a definition for up, seeing as you are all arguing in different ways.

I have modified my points, see the 10 points above, this explains.

what is the FE definition of left again?

Which way on the flat earth are you facing?
North, South, East or West?

Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 09, 2008, 03:51:37 PM
what is the FE definition of left again?

Feel free to discuss new topics in new threads. We are still waiting for you to properly discuss the topic at hand.

Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 09, 2008, 05:54:35 PM
AH! I scared away all the RE'ers with cognitive reasoning and foolproof conjecture!

Another victory for FE!!!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Parsifal on August 09, 2008, 09:57:43 PM
They do when gravity pulls on them.

Fictitious forces usually don't pull on things very strongly.

Have you ever been in a car when someone slams on the brakes?  Tell me that the fictitious force "pushing" you forwards didn't feel real.

I have, and nothing pushed me forwards at all. If it did, I would have accelerated forwards - clearly the opposite effect to that which a brake is supposed to have (unless the car is moving in reverse).

You people are difficult. OK: here's a definition of "up" that is consistent with GR:

"Up" is the direction of fastest increasing gravitational potential.

In a Newtonian system, this is equivalent to my previous definition ("up" is opposite to the direction objects fall), but also works with GR.
Can we all agree on this?

It could be better worded, but I wouldn't have thought to put it like that, so I commend you for coming up with that definition, and accept it.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: markjo on August 10, 2008, 12:18:32 AM
FE Theory:
1 - Up is up.
2 - Outward is outward.

Since when do you define a word with the word that you are defining?  ???
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Jack on August 10, 2008, 12:29:09 AM
They do when these "fictitious" forces aren't actually fictitious.
Except the fact that they are and will always be fictitious.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: General Douchebag on August 10, 2008, 02:33:11 AM
Since when do you define a word with the word that you are defining?  ???

Those aren't definitions, those are synonyms. In FE up is, has always been and will always be, up. In RE, who knows? Lor' knows they don't!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: markjo on August 10, 2008, 08:59:56 AM
Since when do you define a word with the word that you are defining?  ???

Those aren't definitions, those are synonyms. In FE up is, has always been and will always be, up. In RE, who knows? Lor' knows they don't!

In RE up will always be opposite of down.  What is so hard to grasp about that?  ???
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Josef on August 12, 2008, 06:02:49 AM
You are quite possibly the dumbest RE'er on these boards. Congratulations.

And you are probably the most hostile and bitter person on these boards. Congratulations for being so sad.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on August 12, 2008, 06:08:59 AM
You are quite possibly the dumbest RE'er on these boards. Congratulations.

And you are probably the most hostile and bitter person on these boards. Congratulations for being so sad.

Oh thats just wrong, there's lots of people much more hostile and bitter than Narcypants on here
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 12, 2008, 06:10:45 AM
You are quite possibly the dumbest RE'er on these boards. Congratulations.

And you are probably the most hostile and bitter person on these boards. Congratulations for being so sad.

Oh thats just wrong, there's lots of people much more hostile and bitter than Narcypants on here

And all RE'ers.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Josef on August 12, 2008, 07:05:24 AM
You are quite possibly the dumbest RE'er on these boards. Congratulations.

And you are probably the most hostile and bitter person on these boards. Congratulations for being so sad.

Oh thats just wrong, there's lots of people much more hostile and bitter than Narcypants on here

And all RE'ers.

Very mature..
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 12, 2008, 07:14:24 AM
Very mature..

I think you misunderstand. i am not saying all RE'ers are much more bitter etc than Narc, just that the people who are more bitter etc than Narc are all RE'ers, and I think there is more than ample evidence of that on this board.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Josef on August 12, 2008, 09:46:10 AM
Very mature..

I think you misunderstand. i am not saying all RE'ers are much more bitter etc than Narc, just that the people who are more bitter etc than Narc are all RE'ers, and I think there is more than ample evidence of that on this board.

Nah.. They are more angry and frustrated. :)
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Jack on August 12, 2008, 09:48:17 AM
Nah.. They are more angry and frustrated. :)
And schizophrenic.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on August 12, 2008, 09:54:10 AM
Very mature..

I think you misunderstand. i am not saying all RE'ers are much more bitter etc than Narc, just that the people who are more bitter etc than Narc are all RE'ers, and I think there is more than ample evidence of that on this board.

Nah.. They are more angry and frustrated. :)

Why, though?  What's the point of getting angry and frustrated on an internet forum?  Do REers really think they're going to blind FEers with science and turn them around on the debate?  Do they get angry and frustrated because FEers actually defend their position instead of meekly backing away and proclaiming that REer an intellectual god for finally making them see the light?

I mean, really, what do you REers expect when you come here?  ???
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Josef on August 12, 2008, 10:04:11 AM
I think you misunderstand. i am not saying all RE'ers are much more bitter etc than Narc, just that the people who are more bitter etc than Narc are all RE'ers, and I think there is more than ample evidence of that on this board.

Nah.. They are more angry and frustrated. :)

Do REers really think they're going to blind FEers with science and turn them around on the debate?  Do they get angry and frustrated because FEers actually defend their position instead of meekly backing away and proclaiming that REer an intellectual god for finally making them see the light?


Yes to all those questions. hehe.

I mean, really, what do you REers expect when you come here?  ???

For me, this forum is a way to open my mind, learn how other people think... And also to have an argument. Like the Monty Python sketch, but its free.

It's easy to get frustrated though, because its impossible to win. For either side. But one has to remind himself/herself that its how a internet forum works. No one ever "wins", and thus it cant be the goal.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Colonel Gaydafi on August 12, 2008, 10:04:49 AM
RE'ers smell funny too
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on August 12, 2008, 10:10:50 AM
For me, this forum is a way to open my mind, learn how other people think... And also to have an argument. Like the Monty Python sketch, but its free.

Then you're ahead of the pack.  The average REer seems to come here to be insulting and to get a false sense of superiority.  I think the anger and frustration mostly stems from the fact that they end up feeling like idiots because they realize that (by and large) they had no idea what the fuck they were talking about.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 12, 2008, 10:25:26 AM
Very mature..

I think you misunderstand. i am not saying all RE'ers are much more bitter etc than Narc, just that the people who are more bitter etc than Narc are all RE'ers, and I think there is more than ample evidence of that on this board.

Nah.. They are more angry and frustrated. :)


I've said it many times before- those RE'ers who come here with an open mind and are polite always earn my respect, if not my agreement, and that is usually the case with all FE'ers. I came here a RE'er, and I am proud to say I was always respectful and polite. It's just we get a lot of very ignorant people here, and 99% of the time, they're here to tell us the earth is round and that we're stupid.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 13, 2008, 01:03:03 AM
The earth is round, but your not stupid.  ;)
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Igetaround on August 13, 2008, 04:45:45 AM
1: A bubble will go up in China
2: A bubble will go up in the United States
3: If the earth is round, bubbles will rise outwards from the earth
4: Since bubbles always rise up, the earth cannot be round



Before I begin, I am a RE moron. No concept of physics, laws of motion, gravity E=MC2 etc etc.... but allow me to try and engage in a semi sensible discussion.

The earth is flat and constantly moving upwards in the same direction according to FET. So, if I use a telescope to look at stars in Scotland I should be seeing exactly the same stars and constellations as if i was using the telescope in Australia. The stars would never change position relative to my own position as FE and the universe are moving in same direction.

However, the constellations do change relative to my position and new stars and constellations appear depending on the time of year I am observing.

Dont refer me to FAQ, because, as with many questions raised on this forum, the answers are vague and are based on speculation rather than fact. I am merely interested in your theory, scientifically difficult or not.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: ProofIsInThePudding on August 13, 2008, 11:11:05 AM
I personally think that we should all refer to Robotsteve's argument.  He seems the most levelheaded in the forum.  Narc, you should listen to your fellow FEr in this case.

Asking which way is "up" on a Round Earth is like asking which way is "out" from the centre of a ball. If you attempt to use this reasoning to prove that a Round Earth can't exist, then one could also attempt to use it to show that a ball can't exist.

One has to remember words can have arbitrary meanings attached to them, especially in a different frame of reference.  We simply assign common meanings to them IF YOU THINK OF THINGS THE SAME WAY.  If you say, "hey look, this is a GREEN apple" to a colour blind person, what you're seeing is not the same as what they're seeing.  Similarly saying the same sentence makes even less sense if you say it to someone who only understands, say, French.

In FE, "up" is defined as the direction of Earth acceleration.  In this case, EXPRESSION = DEFINITION
In RE, "up" is defined as the vector formed by starting at the observer and continuing with the sky.  So yes, the EXPRESSION of what "up" is changes depending on location but the DEFINITION does not. 

Just because one cannot determine the orientation all the time is meaningless.  Using Narc's example only:

Nobody can tell me the orientation of an FE Earth model in respect to the galaxy / the entirety of Space (I believe even your FAQ mentions this possibility; that only our local known space is known to move your definition of "up").  There may be an another Flat Planet that is moving the opposite direction.  Their definition of up, according to you, would contradict ours.  You must admit the possibility of this alternate planet if you believe in Newtonian physics:  Anything action (force) has an equal and opposite reaction ("negative" force).  The energy to move a FE earth "up" (your def) must necessitate energy moving in the opposite direction.

Either way, any arguments using these definitions of "up" to prove either FE or RE is flawed, as numerous people have pointed out on both RE / FE sides.  There's no relationship between the two definitions of "up", so you can't (easily) use one definition of "up" to prove itself or disprove the opposite.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: markjo on August 13, 2008, 11:13:19 AM
Can't we all just agree that this thread is a typical Narcberry troll and just let it die.

Please.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Parsifal on August 13, 2008, 12:52:52 PM
I personally think that we should all refer to Robotsteve's argument.  He seems the most levelheaded in the forum.

Fucking sig'd!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: markjo on August 13, 2008, 12:59:09 PM
DIE THREAD SPAWNED FROM HELL!!  DIE, DIE, DIE!!!   >:(
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 13, 2008, 03:23:25 PM
Progression of the RE argument:
1) Denial
2) Bad example that usually proves FE
3) Personal attacks
4) Attempts to get thread locked


All the while, the earth remains flat and bubbles go up.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Penispoop agogo on August 13, 2008, 03:24:13 PM
This forums was much better when narc was banned
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Sir_Drainsalot on August 13, 2008, 03:28:03 PM
This forums was much better when narc was banned

Nah, he is great comic relief. And he keeps the RE noobs/trolls occupied.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 13, 2008, 10:46:23 PM
Well, in conclusion, thanks everyone for participating. This voyage into the absurdity of RE was fun, but it'll be nice to start talking about real science again.

Another victory for FE!!!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Lord Wilmore on August 14, 2008, 01:24:26 AM
This forums was much better when narc was banned

Nah, he is great comic relief. And he keeps the RE noobs/trolls occupied.

Agreed. Narc forever!
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: funkcmc on August 14, 2008, 03:32:19 AM
Since when did bubbles go up? Bubbles are a small sphere of a liquid therefore heavier than air and fall down.  You should of used helium balloons Narcbery.

So based on the fact you also believe that bubbles go up AND the earth is flat I will no longer be taking on board anything you say, unless of course you offer me free lollypops from the lollypop forest?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: narcberry on August 14, 2008, 01:22:26 PM
Bubbles are spheres of liquid?
Of course you can't take anything I say, what would you do with it if you could?
Are you offering to take my words if I offer you free lollypops from the lollypop forest, or are you really asking me if I will?

Posts like your really tire me. FES needs more quality posters.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Theorist on August 15, 2008, 10:49:18 AM
FES needs more quality posters.

I tried to disprove FE, but couldn't.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 15, 2008, 02:57:27 PM
Since when did bubbles go up? Bubbles are a small sphere of a liquid therefore heavier than air and fall down.  You should of used helium balloons Narcbery.

So based on the fact you also believe that bubbles go up AND the earth is flat I will no longer be taking on board anything you say, unless of course you offer me free lollypops from the lollypop forest?

Bubbles can be spheres of air.  :-\
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Josef on August 15, 2008, 03:33:16 PM
Another victory for FE!!!

Youre really keen on "winning" arent you? Why is that?
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: monkeybradders on August 15, 2008, 03:36:23 PM
Look at the ceiling.

There ya go. There ya go. There's up.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Mohnzh on August 15, 2008, 03:40:27 PM
Yeah, I think the RE'ers are using a poor definition of up. In their definition, if they were standing on the moon, whatever counter gravity is up. But when they consider their own satellites they believe to be leaving the solar system, away from the suns gravitational pull, they do not call that up, they call it out. Up from the sun is its "north pole". What it boils down to is that RE'ers define up based on their sense of balance. Up is extremely subjective. If I stand on my head, the organs of my inner ear invert and tell me that my head is the direction of gravitational pull, therefore up is towards my feet. However, it has been shown that interpretation of that sensation strongly depends on visual cues as well. This is why when someone is buried in an avalanche, for example, they cannot tell which way is "up". Up is a physiological sensation dependent on the inner ear and visual cues, not a direction. It is most commonly used to refer to a direction, but it is in fact simply the description of sensation taken from inner ear balance and visual cues as to what is the opposite of the most severe gravitational pull being experienced by the person at any given time. This is consistent with both a RE and a FE model. Using "up" or "down" to describe the direction of the bubble does not disprove or prove either model. It is only relating an observation to your own sensation.
Title: Re: Which way is up again?
Post by: Josef on August 15, 2008, 03:45:38 PM
Yeah, I think the RE'ers are using a poor definition of up. In their definition, if they were standing on the moon, whatever counter gravity is up. But when they consider their own satellites they believe to be leaving the solar system, away from the suns gravitational pull, they do not call that up, they call it out. Up from the sun is its "north pole". What it boils down to is that RE'ers define up based on their sense of balance. Up is extremely subjective. If I stand on my head, the organs of my inner ear invert and tell me that my head is the direction of gravitational pull, therefore up is towards my feet. However, it has been shown that interpretation of that sensation strongly depends on visual cues as well. This is why when someone is buried in an avalanche, for example, they cannot tell which way is "up". Up is a physiological sensation dependent on the inner ear and visual cues, not a direction. It is most commonly used to refer to a direction, but it is in fact simply the description of sensation taken from inner ear balance and visual cues as to what is the opposite of the most severe gravitational pull being experienced by the person at any given time. This is consistent with both a RE and a FE model. Using "up" or "down" to describe the direction of the bubble does not disprove or prove either model. It is only relating an observation to your own sensation.

Thats a good explanation.

Ive said it before and I say it again: I feel very lucky that the Earth is being pushed straight upwards!