The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: Franc T., Planar on March 25, 2007, 05:42:17 PM

Title: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 25, 2007, 05:42:17 PM
The burden of proof applies to anyone who makes a proposition about reality.

Both Flat Earthers and Round Earthers make propositions about reality.

Occam's Razor states that when two models propose to explain the same facts, the model with the most processes or entities is the one we should adopt, until further evidence comes in.

FE and RE propose to explain the same facts, but RE has the added problem of explaining how the Earth got to be the size it is, and how it got flatteny-round. The size, shape and formation of the Earth are all arbitrary factors, which do not jibe with a natural formation.

Therefore, for Round Earthism to be true, Occam's Razor must be false, as well. Therefore Round Earthers have the burden of proof to show that.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: narcberry on March 25, 2007, 05:53:32 PM
good luck getting them to say anything but, "prove it" even if the proofs are there.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: RAmenBrother on March 25, 2007, 06:55:20 PM
I'm double-posting here, but I'm proud of my argument, so here 'goes.

Being a Canadian, there's one thing I've learned about conservative Americans like yourself: you like your guns, tall buildings, and fast cars. I can provide strong indications of a round earth using these things.

For example, the CN tower in Canada is the world's largest freestanding structure. It's so tall in fact, that they had to plant lasers at the base of the tower when they were building it. Why, you ask? Well, due to the Coriolis effect, the farther away from the surface of the Earth you are, the faster you're rotating. In effect, if the construction workers built straight up without any references to the ground, the structure would corkscrew and be impossible to build totally straight. Ergo, the construction of tall buildings takes into account a round (and spinning) earth.

Now, guns. If you know any sniper specialists in the Army, they will back this up. When a sniper has to make a shot at extreme distances (over a mile), they cannot simply shoot straight at their target, due to wind and the arc of the bullet, obviously. However, they also need to take into account where on the Earth they are, so they can account for the rotation of the earth. If they do not, they cannot properly hit their target. Ergo, a round (and spinning) earth is a sniper's enemy, but one he has to contend with.

Cars are a little trickier, so I will use commercial airplanes. The proposed shape of the flat earth is like a dollar coin, with all the continents up top. Say a pilot wanted to get from Sydney Australia to Washington DC. In a flat earth, the most direct route will be roughly across the North Pole, but in reality they travel over the Pacific Ocean, which in a flat earth would equate to much more time and fuel wasted. I've seen this argument refuted in other posts as planes stopping at many cities along the way, but that's inapplicable here as there is nowhere to stop over the Pacific. And since commercial airliners like saving fuel, and money, they take the most direct route. So, pilots take a route that highly indicates a round earth, being the most efficient path.

One final morsel of food for thought is time zones. If you look on a map of the time zones, you will see they stretch from pole to pole. On a flat earth, they would need to all begin at true North and radiate outward like bicycle spokes. This analysis does not match the actual arrangement of the time zones, as then Australia and Africa would be one huge time zone, instead of several moderately sized ones, which they actually are.

I understand that a key tenet of Flat Earthers is a worldwide conspiracy to hide the true nature of the earth, in which case my argument, and by extension all others, are meaningless.

p.s.

There exists several basic items of proof of a round earth. I will not explain them in detail unless you really want me to, but here goes: pictures from space, pictures of other planets, pictures of the sun (tracing sunspots allows its rotation to be measured, making it round), seeing the Apollo landing site through a home telescope, seeing the International Space Station fly (orbit) over your house, the cyclic nature of hurricanes and large storms, weather in general (mostly wind), and the fact that nobody appears to have seen the gigantic ice walls that are at the "edge" of the earth, or the protective "dome" that keeps our atmosphere from floating away, even though rockets seem to have no trouble penetrating it.

The biggest item of proof is the number of pictures of a round Earth from space. This could all be false of course, assuming nobody has ever been in space. However, there is a great mirror on the moon that you can reflect a laser beam off of, thereby proving man's touch has graced the moon and simultaneously gauging the distance between the moon and the earth. Since man can throw a mirror at the moon, he can certainly send cameras a quarter of that distance to take a picture of the planet.

Though some of these items are not "proof" by the strictest definitions, being highly credible inferences, the pictures of a round Earth are the most credible proof you could possibly conceive.

Though I know that Flat Earthers seem so biased, that if you laid a picture of a round earth beside one of a flat earth, they would immediately claim the earth is flat, though there is equal proof for both conjectures in that point.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 25, 2007, 07:41:08 PM
I am Canadian.
I am a Market Anarchist.
You lose.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: SNB on March 25, 2007, 08:44:45 PM
How was the Earth formed?
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 25, 2007, 09:29:54 PM
How was the Earth formed?

From the Big Bang.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: CrackIs4Kids on March 25, 2007, 10:21:06 PM
So what if you have the burden of proof. Get used to it. I have plenty of experiences with the burden of proof. Take for example the time I urinated on a McDonald's employee while she was fixing my supper. Anyone could have urinated on her. But of course, she pointed and screamed at me, stupid bitch. Now the burden of proof is on me that I didn't pee on her. Ridiculous.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: pspunit on March 25, 2007, 10:28:39 PM
The burden of proof applies to anyone who makes a proposition about reality.

The burden of proof is on the party proposing a theory that is contradictory to the generally accepted one among the scientific community.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: [][][] on March 25, 2007, 10:45:33 PM
The burden of proof applies to anyone who makes a proposition about reality.

The burden of proof is on the party proposing a theory that is contradictory to the generally accepted one among the scientific community.
What if the scientific community is the Flat Earth Society, and that generally accepted theory is one of a flat Earth?
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: pspunit on March 25, 2007, 10:50:24 PM
The burden of proof applies to anyone who makes a proposition about reality.

The burden of proof is on the party proposing a theory that is contradictory to the generally accepted one among the scientific community.
What if the scientific community is the Flat Earth Society, and that generally accepted theory is one of a flat Earth?

If that were the case, the round earth theory would have the burden of proof. That's not the case though. No modern scientist has published support for the flat earth theory.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: silverhammermba on March 25, 2007, 11:11:33 PM
FE and RE propose to explain the same facts, but RE has the added problem of explaining how the Earth got to be the size it is, and how it got flatteny-round. The size, shape and formation of the Earth are all arbitrary factors, which do not jibe with a natural formation.
Therefore, for Round Earthism to be true, Occam's Razor must be false, as well. Therefore Round Earthers have the burden of proof to show that.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. First of all, Occam's Razor states that, all things being equal, we should adopt the model with the least assumptions. Verbatim, "Entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity". I assume you simply made a slip of the tongue. But even assuming so, your logic is wrong. Inventing arbitrary questions does not count as RE theory having more entities. For example the question "how the Earth got to be the size it is" can be asked with just as much validity to the FE'ers and thus falls into that "all things being equal" bit and so doesn't count. Also "flatteny-round" makes no sense whatsoever.

As an aside, Occam's Razor is not a matter of FEism or REism, it is of pure logic. To declare it false is sheer foolishness.

Back to the point, the most basic principles of RE theory have led to the development of physics that have further explained many aspects of the universe completely unrelated to the shape of the Earth. On the other hand, the most basic principles of FE theory would require throwing virtually all of commonly accepted physics out the window in favor of a bastardized version in which gravity doesn't exist and light behaves far differently than we currently think. Now consider the fact that FE theory has far more (as of yet) unexplained elements than RE theory and that a huge amount of FE theory depends upon a world-wide government conspiracy - now which theory is multiplying entities beyond necessity?

FE'ers, the burden of proof lies with you.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 25, 2007, 11:52:10 PM
The burden of proof applies to anyone who makes a proposition about reality.

The burden of proof is on the party proposing a theory that is contradictory to the generally accepted one among the scientific community.

This is not an issue of science. We are not scientists. The burden of proof applies to ALL claims about reality.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: RAmenBrother on March 26, 2007, 06:26:42 AM
Francerty, your logic is inherently flawed. Just like the guy trying to talk about identicl planes for bulldozing houses in Paris and Bulgaria (or something), your ideas only make sense if you already KNOW the earth is flat. Since you require to be true what you are trying to prove, your argument is one big fallacy. And claiming that Occam's razor must be false for the earth to be round is just silly, and indicates a complete lack of understanding for what you're trying to say.

The burden of proof now lies squarely on the shoulders of flat earthers. There has been a monumental amount of proof in favour of a round earth, and now for flat earthers to be taken seriously, you need an even greater volume of credible evidence than has been established for a round earth. Since none of you have actually produced this proof, but instead try to insult those who do posit quite convincing proof, you have done abolutely nothing to further your point, which I would think would be your first concern, since the round earth theory is obviously a worldwide lie between Commie hippies and dodge drafters.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Darkfrog on March 26, 2007, 06:57:23 AM
I think that Occam's Razor clearly supports the RE theory, only because of all of the contrivances that have to be made for a FE. FE REQUIRES that there is a massive worldwide conspiracy to keep people from the truth, but cannot explain the actual benefit this conspiracy would provide.  That satellite imagery, Mercury, Apollo, Shuttle missions are all faked. There is an unexplainable force that is able to keep a massive body accelerating constantly. The idea that the sun & moon are discs, and a truly impossible explanation for them setting below the horizon, in opposition to obvious earth-based evidence to the contrary. No ability to explain the earths magnetic field, which is easily explained by a RE's molten spinning iron core (and of course a necessity to keep us from being harmed by the observable solar winds). The lack of a FE map that follows the known and measurable shape of land masses and distances between them. Plus at least a half dozen other things.

The fact that a RE gives reasonable scientific explanations for all of these things without resorting to the ultimate cop-out, a conspiracy, puts Occam's Razor clearly on the RE side.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Red_Wyrm on March 26, 2007, 08:46:31 AM
You want proof? Space ship!
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 26, 2007, 02:29:43 PM
I think that Occam's Razor clearly supports the RE theory, only because of all of the contrivances that have to be made for a FE. FE REQUIRES that there is a massive worldwide conspiracy to keep people from the truth, but cannot explain the actual benefit this conspiracy would provide.

I have already explained the benefits. You lose.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 26, 2007, 02:49:17 PM
You can't answer one point and win you have to answer all points to win.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Darkfrog on March 26, 2007, 03:03:10 PM
I think that Occam's Razor clearly supports the RE theory, only because of all of the contrivances that have to be made for a FE. FE REQUIRES that there is a massive worldwide conspiracy to keep people from the truth, but cannot explain the actual benefit this conspiracy would provide.

I have already explained the benefits. You lose.
I'm sorry, the benefits you have explained are all conjecture. You have no real evidence, IMO.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 26, 2007, 05:12:46 PM
I think that Occam's Razor clearly supports the RE theory, only because of all of the contrivances that have to be made for a FE. FE REQUIRES that there is a massive worldwide conspiracy to keep people from the truth, but cannot explain the actual benefit this conspiracy would provide.

I have already explained the benefits. You lose.
I'm sorry, the benefits you have explained are all conjecture. You have no real evidence, IMO.

That is your position.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: narcberry on March 26, 2007, 05:37:27 PM
I'm double-posting here, but I'm proud of my argument, so here 'goes.

Being a Canadian, there's one thing I've learned about conservative Americans like yourself: you like your guns, tall buildings, and fast cars. I can provide strong indications of a round earth using these things.

For example, the CN tower in Canada is the world's largest freestanding structure. It's so tall in fact, that they had to plant lasers at the base of the tower when they were building it. Why, you ask? Well, due to the Coriolis effect, the farther away from the surface of the Earth you are, the faster you're rotating. In effect, if the construction workers built straight up without any references to the ground, the structure would corkscrew and be impossible to build totally straight. Ergo, the construction of tall buildings takes into account a round (and spinning) earth.

Now, guns. If you know any sniper specialists in the Army, they will back this up. When a sniper has to make a shot at extreme distances (over a mile), they cannot simply shoot straight at their target, due to wind and the arc of the bullet, obviously. However, they also need to take into account where on the Earth they are, so they can account for the rotation of the earth. If they do not, they cannot properly hit their target. Ergo, a round (and spinning) earth is a sniper's enemy, but one he has to contend with.

Cars are a little trickier, so I will use commercial airplanes. The proposed shape of the flat earth is like a dollar coin, with all the continents up top. Say a pilot wanted to get from Sydney Australia to Washington DC. In a flat earth, the most direct route will be roughly across the North Pole, but in reality they travel over the Pacific Ocean, which in a flat earth would equate to much more time and fuel wasted. I've seen this argument refuted in other posts as planes stopping at many cities along the way, but that's inapplicable here as there is nowhere to stop over the Pacific. And since commercial airliners like saving fuel, and money, they take the most direct route. So, pilots take a route that highly indicates a round earth, being the most efficient path.

One final morsel of food for thought is time zones. If you look on a map of the time zones, you will see they stretch from pole to pole. On a flat earth, they would need to all begin at true North and radiate outward like bicycle spokes. This analysis does not match the actual arrangement of the time zones, as then Australia and Africa would be one huge time zone, instead of several moderately sized ones, which they actually are.

I understand that a key tenet of Flat Earthers is a worldwide conspiracy to hide the true nature of the earth, in which case my argument, and by extension all others, are meaningless.

p.s.

There exists several basic items of proof of a round earth. I will not explain them in detail unless you really want me to, but here goes: pictures from space, pictures of other planets, pictures of the sun (tracing sunspots allows its rotation to be measured, making it round), seeing the Apollo landing site through a home telescope, seeing the International Space Station fly (orbit) over your house, the cyclic nature of hurricanes and large storms, weather in general (mostly wind), and the fact that nobody appears to have seen the gigantic ice walls that are at the "edge" of the earth, or the protective "dome" that keeps our atmosphere from floating away, even though rockets seem to have no trouble penetrating it.

The biggest item of proof is the number of pictures of a round Earth from space. This could all be false of course, assuming nobody has ever been in space. However, there is a great mirror on the moon that you can reflect a laser beam off of, thereby proving man's touch has graced the moon and simultaneously gauging the distance between the moon and the earth. Since man can throw a mirror at the moon, he can certainly send cameras a quarter of that distance to take a picture of the planet.

Though some of these items are not "proof" by the strictest definitions, being highly credible inferences, the pictures of a round Earth are the most credible proof you could possibly conceive.

Though I know that Flat Earthers seem so biased, that if you laid a picture of a round earth beside one of a flat earth, they would immediately claim the earth is flat, though there is equal proof for both conjectures in that point.


long posters suck
this is a long post
therefore you suck

QED, world is flat.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: RAmenBrother on March 26, 2007, 05:41:30 PM
Once again, Frankis, you have polluted another post with your stubborn "I win, you lose" attitude. Like, seriously... what are you, six years old?

Not only can you not come up with ANY proof for any of your claims, but as soon as someone debates your points, you throw up this disgusting front about how everything you believe in is correct. Well, sorry pal, but it just isn't. And the fact that you can't, and are not willing to, back ANYTHING up shows that even you yourself don't understand what you talk about. Frankly (no pun intended), you're an embarrassment to this forum, as the only things you say are conjectural pieces of nothing, that are worth nothing and mean nothing.

And nobody cares if YOU believe in them, because I could tell you that I believe the sky is green, and then just say "I win, you lose" when you refute it. Do yourself a favour and cure your delusion; open your mind to things other than what Tom Bishop (or whatever the hell his name is) says.

p.s. narcberry, you've once again solidified your position as token douchebag.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Game_Guru777 on March 26, 2007, 05:54:52 PM
I think that Occam's Razor clearly supports the RE theory, only because of all of the contrivances that have to be made for a FE. FE REQUIRES that there is a massive worldwide conspiracy to keep people from the truth, but cannot explain the actual benefit this conspiracy would provide.

I have already explained the benefits. You lose.
I'm sorry, the benefits you have explained are all conjecture. You have no real evidence, IMO.

That is your position.

True, you have shown the benefits... however that does not mean that is what is truly happening. As you have said in your first post that FE'ers have made the theory and it is up to the RE'ers to disprove it. But wouldn't it be the opposite way. Instead of the RE'ers having to disprove the theory, shouldn't FE'ers have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt before any disproving can take place? Also, I have yet to see definitive proof, only lame responses saying that we lose. Which leads me to believe that you have no proof. Well... in this world to make anyone believe you, you must have proof. Checkmate, Francy...
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: cmdshft on March 27, 2007, 03:56:42 AM
tl;dr

Anyone care to summarize?
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 02:41:52 PM
tl;dr

Anyone care to summarize?

Round Earthers are idiots.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Game_Guru777 on March 27, 2007, 02:49:06 PM
Hmm... no responce... just insults... I take it you have no proof. Well Francy... I suggest you explain something to the so called idiots. Like what you beleive and why you beleive it. By now I can already deside that it is not FE'ers that are ignorant, but you. You give FE'ers a bad name. Most back up what they say, not you though. You just kinda insult when people dont agree with you. That is the truth. Checkmate.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 03:23:54 PM
I was asked to summarize, and I did. Round Earthers have zero evidence. Any way you cut it, that makes you full of shit.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Darkfrog on March 27, 2007, 03:32:51 PM
I was asked to summarize, and I did. Round Earthers have zero evidence. Any way you cut it, that makes you full of shit.
You're a lying troll, get off this forum!
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 03:37:13 PM
I was asked to summarize, and I did. Round Earthers have zero evidence. Any way you cut it, that makes you full of shit.
You're a lying troll, get off this forum!

Get outta here.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Darkfrog on March 27, 2007, 03:41:19 PM
I was asked to summarize, and I did. Round Earthers have zero evidence. Any way you cut it, that makes you full of shit.
You're a lying troll, get off this forum!

Get outta here.
Just trying to beat you to the punch.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Game_Guru777 on March 27, 2007, 03:53:14 PM
tl;dr

Anyone care to summarize?

Round Earthers are idiots.

Wonderful summary... an insult... But I guess that was the most I should have expected from you. I have proof, yet you don't as I can see. Or else you would think up of more than just an insult as a summary. Earth is round because gravity pulls with equal strength in all directions; therefore any variations from a spherical shape will lead to gravitational forces that bring the shape back into that of a sphere. That is one shread of proof more than what you have.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: YourAverageJoe on March 27, 2007, 04:23:37 PM
Summary:

Franc spat out some technobabble that would make any sci-fi b-movie envious, then RAmen went ahead and posted numerous concrete proof that the Earth's round, then some other guys pointed out that Franc's technobabble was completely off. After that Franc started lashing out, and people wanted him to give out proof that if people thought the earth was round when it wasn't (I'm an REer btw) would benefit someone in any way, so instead of giving out a sensible response, Franc just lashed out some more.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Game_Guru777 on March 27, 2007, 04:31:36 PM
Beautiful summary, at last... some logic I cannot argue with.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: RAmenBrother on March 27, 2007, 05:39:06 PM
I agree with all of the above, especially the part that makes me look smart :)
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: cmdshft on March 27, 2007, 05:53:52 PM
I have zero evidence. Any way you cut it, that makes me full of shit.

Fix'd.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: WTF on March 27, 2007, 06:37:38 PM
This has got to be one of the dumbest OPs I've ever seen.  And this being a "Flat Earth" board sets the bar for that pretty high.
There is proof all over the freakin place for a round earth.  It's called science - physics, geology, astronomy for starters - ever heard of those?
How the world works is completely harmonious and only makes sense with a round earth.  That's why only the fringe (and in the case of this website, the fakers) argue for a flat earth.  When you have to invoke impossible worldwide conspiracy and suspend or re-write basic science to support your paradigm then *clearly* the burden of proof belongs on that end.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 06:54:17 PM
This has got to be one of the dumbest OPs I've ever seen.  And this being a "Flat Earth" board sets the bar for that pretty high.
There is proof all over the freakin place for a round earth.  It's called science - physics, geology, astronomy for starters - ever heard of those?

Please explain how any of these provide evidence for your religion.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: RAmenBrother on March 27, 2007, 06:54:59 PM
Commence ignoring of ridiculous statements... now.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: WTF on March 27, 2007, 06:56:04 PM
Please explain how any of these provide evidence for your religion.

If I were religious I could comment.  I'm not.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 07:00:25 PM
Please explain how any of these provide evidence for your religion.

If I were religious I could comment.  I'm not.

Stop your lying.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Game_Guru777 on March 27, 2007, 07:04:34 PM
Please explain how any of these provide evidence for your religion.

If I were religious I could comment.  I'm not.

Stop your lying.

Stop your posting... bring proof... maybe people will listen to you if you stop ranting like a drunk.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 07:05:36 PM
You have the burden of proof, not me.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Game_Guru777 on March 27, 2007, 07:06:46 PM
Gravity pulls with equal strength in all directions; therefore any variations from a spherical shape will lead to gravitational forces that bring the shape back into that of a sphere. There... now where is yours?
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: WTF on March 27, 2007, 07:06:55 PM
Which are you anyway, Franc - a nutjob or a faker?  My standard assumption is faker, which can further be divided into bored devil's advocate who actually knows a thing or two and punk troll who gets kicks doing this on probably most forums they visit.  I think you're probably the latter variety of faker but I've been known to be wrong.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: WTF on March 27, 2007, 07:07:53 PM
Gravity pulls with equal strength in all directions; therefore any variations from a spherical shape will lead to gravitational forces that bring the shape back into that of a sphere. There... now where is yours?

Yup that is true - I'm curious what the mechanism is that produced a flat earth and that keeps it that way.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 07:09:18 PM
Which are you anyway, Franc - a nutjob or a faker?  My standard assumption is faker, which can further be divided into bored devil's advocate who actually knows a thing or two and punk troll who gets kicks doing this on probably most forums they visit.  I think you're probably the latter variety of faker but I've been known to be wrong.

Stop projecting, faker.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: CommonCents on March 27, 2007, 07:10:44 PM
I think I know how Franc makes his replies...He has a script he that generates one out of around 10 I think I've seen different insults or responses and he just runs said script whenever anyone proves him wrong or asks him a question...
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: WTF on March 27, 2007, 07:12:33 PM
It's hard to consider the mainstream position "trolling" so it's unlikely I'm projecting.  Maybe I'm wrong - you could always be a post-count whore, too.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on March 27, 2007, 07:18:15 PM
To start, I am in fact a Round Earther.

Bickering isn't going to resolve these issues. :-\ I am referring to both sides of this argument.

Anyways, the burden of proof is in fact placed on the Flat Earthers due to their claims. It is a widely accepted "fact" that the Earth is round and thus, any claims otherwise such as FE theory, need to be approached with scientific evidence. A wide variety of evidence has in fact already been presented on these forums for RE. Attempts to counter them have been made, but the explanations for why this evidence is flawed or discredited themselves cannot be proven.

Gravity, the sun, weather patterns, NASA, satellites, horizon lines, magnetic poles, physics in the creation of the Earth, the moon, seasons, pendulums, celestial bodies (including other planets), the Coriolis effect, etc. were all presented by Round Earthers as existing evidence for an RE model.

To my knowledge, every case was either adapted to fit FE or discredited by being considered part of a massive pointless worldwide conspiracy.

These are simple and ideal forms of evidence. It is simply time for Flat Earthers to step up to the plate. Should there be no substantial evidence, no reason to believe in a FE would arise. This is only proof that the FE theory was invented by someone with a creative imagination which would make RE infinitely more likely.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 07:18:56 PM
It's hard to consider the mainstream position "trolling" so it's unlikely I'm projecting.  Maybe I'm wrong - you could always be a post-count whore, too.

On this board, the mainstream position is the Flat Earth. Or did you not notice... um... THE NAME OF THIS BOARD?!?!
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: WTF on March 27, 2007, 07:21:56 PM
It's hard to consider the mainstream position "trolling" so it's unlikely I'm projecting.  Maybe I'm wrong - you could always be a post-count whore, too.

On this board, the mainstream position is the Flat Earth. Or did you not notice... um... THE NAME OF THIS BOARD?!?!

Well then why don't you answer game_guru's post which was one of the many evidences for a round earth?  If the burden of proof is on RE then why don't you reply when evidence is presented?
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 07:23:19 PM
There is no evidence for Round Earthist dogma. That's like saying there is evidence for Christianity. Religions are based on faith, not facts.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: WTF on March 27, 2007, 08:24:05 PM
It's hard to consider the mainstream position "trolling" so it's unlikely I'm projecting.  Maybe I'm wrong - you could always be a post-count whore, too.

On this board, the mainstream position is the Flat Earth. Or did you not notice... um... THE NAME OF THIS BOARD?!?!

Don't you advocate an infinite-plane earth?  That isn't mainstream any more than a round earth is by your standard.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 08:40:33 PM
It's hard to consider the mainstream position "trolling" so it's unlikely I'm projecting.  Maybe I'm wrong - you could always be a post-count whore, too.

On this board, the mainstream position is the Flat Earth. Or did you not notice... um... THE NAME OF THIS BOARD?!?!

Don't you advocate an infinite-plane earth?  That isn't mainstream any more than a round earth is by your standard.

It is a Flat Earth position, so yes.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Flat Earth Master Mint on March 27, 2007, 10:57:10 PM
This has got to be one of the dumbest OPs I've ever seen.  And this being a "Flat Earth" board sets the bar for that pretty high.
There is proof all over the freakin place for a round earth.  It's called science - physics, geology, astronomy for starters - ever heard of those?

Please explain how any of these provide evidence for your religion.
religion - n. 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Neither Round Earth nor Flat Earth does anything to prove the cause, nature, or purpose of the universe, involve any superhuman agency, or provide any moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. I don't think you know what words mean.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 11:05:02 PM
Yes, obviously I was referring to the philosophical definition of religion, and not the sociological one. Thank you for completely misrepresenting what I said.

Also you did not do the simple search that would have let you find this thread I made:
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=11618.0

Congratulations, you = ideot.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Flat Earth Master Mint on March 27, 2007, 11:07:02 PM
Congratulations, you = ideot.
No results found for ideot.
Did you mean IDET (in dictionary) or I-dot (in encyclopedia)?

Dictionary suggestions:
IDET
IDOT
IDIOT
Ideat
idiot
ide ot
ide-ot
IDTO
AEDOT
ID10T
IDT
IEOT
ideo-
ADET
ADOT
ID D&T
ID'ed
IDAT
IDDT
IDE/ATA
IDED
IDENT
IDIT
IDSOT
IDTT
IDWT
ITET
ITOT
ODET
ODOT
UDOT
id est
id'ed
ideata
ideate
ided
ident
ADEHT
E-DIOT
IDART
IDERD
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 11:09:58 PM
 ::)

Wow, I made a misspelling.

I can edit away misspellings, but you'll always be an idiot.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Flat Earth Master Mint on March 27, 2007, 11:12:43 PM
I can edit away misspellings, but you'll always be an idiot.
And yet you haven't. I'm not sure why I'm the enemy here.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Franc T., Planar on March 27, 2007, 11:21:13 PM
You seriously have to ask?

Jesus.

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother.

I think all the REers on this board are played by a 12-year-old boy named Hierophant.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Flat Earth Master Mint on March 27, 2007, 11:27:04 PM
You seriously have to ask?
Yes. Why do you assume I'm here as an enemy of your cause?
Jesus.
I thought we weren't supposed to bring up silly religions. ???
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother.
Bother with what?
I think all the REers on this board are played by a 12-year-old boy named Hierophant.
Are there no hierophants on your side of the fence?
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: cmdshft on March 28, 2007, 05:09:26 AM
Hey guys, just so you are clear:

1. Francoise doesn't represent the concensous of FET. So there's no point in trying to put in any rebuttles, you'll only receive ill comments and immaturity.
2. Francoise is a troll. Trolls come in two flavors: Trolls like me, and bad trolls. Francoise is a bad troll (really horrible at being a bad troll to boot, but a bad troll non the less).
3. He obviously has not seen a certain site (http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2005/2005-07-01/feature1/index.html) and video (http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2005/2005-07-01/feature1/images/vid_1.avi).
4. You're battling a retard. And falling for it.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: RAmenBrother on March 28, 2007, 05:12:50 AM
Now that's awfully convincing evidence. An infinite earth cannot rotate (or move at all, for that matter), ergo that experiment proves the earth's rotation. And by extension, disproves everything frankis says.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: cmdshft on March 28, 2007, 05:23:37 AM
Now that's awfully convincing evidence. An infinite earth cannot rotate (or move at all, for that matter), ergo that experiment proves the earth's rotation. And by extension, disproves everything frankis says.

The experiment was actually to prove that gravity exists.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Miss M. on March 28, 2007, 06:22:24 AM
You have the burden of proof, not me.
how so? From what I understand, the burden of proof lies with the person who is claiming something that is contrary to the common belief. You, sir, are claiming that not only is the earth flat, but there are other planes beyond the 'ice wall', thus contradicting both flat earth and round earth theories. Therefore, you have the burden of proof, not us. I have not seen one shred of evidence for your arguments. You haven't even bothered to copy and paste the beloved 'FAQ'.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: cmdshft on March 28, 2007, 06:59:44 AM
Did you not see my most recent post in this thread?
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Flat Earth Master Mint on March 28, 2007, 07:00:55 AM
Hey guys, just so you are clear:

1. Francoise doesn't represent the concensous of FET. So there's no point in trying to put in any rebuttles, you'll only receive ill comments and immaturity.
2. Francoise is a troll. Trolls come in two flavors: Trolls like me, and bad trolls. Francoise is a bad troll (really horrible at being a bad troll to boot, but a bad troll non the less).
3. He obviously has not seen a certain site (http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2005/2005-07-01/feature1/index.html) and video (http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2005/2005-07-01/feature1/images/vid_1.avi).
4. You're battling a retard. And falling for it.
I dunno. Franc seems to make a lot of sense to me, really.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on March 28, 2007, 10:30:18 AM
It's hard to consider the mainstream position "trolling" so it's unlikely I'm projecting.  Maybe I'm wrong - you could always be a post-count whore, too.

On this board, the mainstream position is the Flat Earth. Or did you not notice... um... THE NAME OF THIS BOARD?!?!

lol. Lashing out randomly huh? The name of this board is not important considering it is a biased sample of the population. Nearly all people are capable of supporting one side or the other. In order to get an unbiased group for determining who has the burden of proof is to include the whole world. Coming as close as we can to that end, the FE still carry the burden. Anyways, even if we decided to include the site, there are more RE supporters on these forums than FE supporters.

By the way, we were invited to debate this issue. I am only accepting the invitation.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on March 28, 2007, 10:42:00 AM
You have the burden of proof, not me.
how so? From what I understand, the burden of proof lies with the person who is claiming something that is contrary to the common belief. You, sir, are claiming that not only is the earth flat, but there are other planes beyond the 'ice wall', thus contradicting both flat earth and round earth theories. Therefore, you have the burden of proof, not us. I have not seen one shred of evidence for your arguments. You haven't even bothered to copy and paste the beloved 'FAQ'.

This argument is in fact correctly established on a solid foundation. Good work!  :)
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Sonic_Moronic on March 28, 2007, 10:55:55 AM
RamenBrother, a marvelous post. LOTS of arguments. FE'rs don't have arguments, and i think that they are the core of a teory. If you just talk about conspiracy and avoid all good-argumented posts, you will never get accepted.

Therefore, i challenge Fe'rs to counter RamenBrother's post.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on March 28, 2007, 11:01:53 AM
I agree. I want a response to that wonderful piece of brilliance. :)
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Game_Guru777 on March 28, 2007, 02:34:27 PM
Francy... now your proof, I showed my proof. Where is yours? If the Earth is truely flat you should be able to come up with some proof. If you want more proof I can supply it... only if you provide at least one shred of proof.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on March 28, 2007, 02:54:53 PM
The burden of proof applies to anyone who makes a proposition about reality.

Both Flat Earthers and Round Earthers make propositions about reality.

Occam's Razor states that when two models propose to explain the same facts, the model with the most processes or entities is the one we should adopt, until further evidence comes in.

FE and RE propose to explain the same facts, but RE has the added problem of explaining how the Earth got to be the size it is, and how it got flatteny-round. The size, shape and formation of the Earth are all arbitrary factors, which do not jibe with a natural formation.

Therefore, for Round Earthism to be true, Occam's Razor must be false, as well. Therefore Round Earthers have the burden of proof to show that.

Wouldn't Occam's Razor also suggest that all the governments in the world are not involved in a conspiracy, though?  If you accept that as a fact, then don't you have to explain why every nation in the world, many of whom hate each other and have conflicting philosophies, would work together to make everybody believe that the earth is round?  And also what their motivation is?

Based on your own argument about Occam's Razor, isn't it more reasonable to think that all the nations in the world just see the simple facts of science, unburdened by the suggestions of a work of fantasy written thousands of years ago, and this is why the say the earth is round?  Because it's actually true?

You invoked Occam's Razor.  Please explain what motivates the world's many governments to all work together to make people believe the world is round, and why they are working together in the first place.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: CommonCents on March 28, 2007, 03:07:12 PM
#1 Talking to Franc T., Planar

Don't do it. Franc changes how he sees the world more often than (normal) people change their underwear.  He always contradicts himself and never presents evidence of his claims.  Whenever someone has a point about something he just says something along the lines of "Get out of here troll" or "Stop listening to your 'round earthism' religion and use your eyes"

#2 Asking what motivates the conspiracy

FE'ers always seem to say that the conspiracy is motivated by money...Somehow keeping this under wraps and bribing people brings a profit to them...I don't know really it just sounds like more BS spewed at a good point.

Anyway those are 2 of the things I learned not to do here because they'll only result in either Franc's insanity or some half-assed idea.

And for your question about Occam's Razor Franc'll say what he said before...
You have the burden of proof, not me.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Darkfrog on March 28, 2007, 03:12:12 PM
The burden of proof applies to anyone who makes a proposition about reality.

Both Flat Earthers and Round Earthers make propositions about reality.

Occam's Razor states that when two models propose to explain the same facts, the model with the most processes or entities is the one we should adopt, until further evidence comes in.

FE and RE propose to explain the same facts, but RE has the added problem of explaining how the Earth got to be the size it is, and how it got flatteny-round. The size, shape and formation of the Earth are all arbitrary factors, which do not jibe with a natural formation.

Therefore, for Round Earthism to be true, Occam's Razor must be false, as well. Therefore Round Earthers have the burden of proof to show that.

Wouldn't Occam's Razor also suggest that all the governments in the world are not involved in a conspiracy, though?  If you accept that as a fact, then don't you have to explain why every nation in the world, many of whom hate each other and have conflicting philosophies, would work together to make everybody believe that the earth is round?  And also what their motivation is?

Based on your own argument about Occam's Razor, isn't it more reasonable to think that all the nations in the world just see the simple facts of science, unburdened by the suggestions of a work of fantasy written thousands of years ago, and this is why the say the earth is round?  Because it's actually true?

You invoked Occam's Razor.  Please explain what motivates the world's many governments to all work together to make people believe the world is round, and why they are working together in the first place.
Franc doesn't understand the concept of Occam's Razor, or many other concepts for that matter. He doesn't even agree with most of the other FE'ers on here.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The claim that goes against thousands of years of observation and science of a RE requires evidence that can prove all of the things discussed in this thread. The most impossible claim to prove is the conspiracy aspect with all of the incredible images, let alone the various missions that are undertaken every year. If there really was a FE conspiracy, it would be so much easier not to reveal such details of every space mission. It would be much easier to have failed launches, and more general experiments, never coming to such specific conclusions about the findings. Things like Voyager, Hubble, the Spacedust project wouldn't exist as about 100 other projects. If all of it was fake, there would have been no reason to have the mistake in the mirror that Hubble initially had requiring a lens to fix it for example. They would have just continued to fake the pictures as they always have.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on March 28, 2007, 03:42:01 PM
I love the assertion that REers have to explain  "how the Earth got to be the size it is, and how it got flatteny round". ::)  My guess is he was raised in a Christian Science household (or something) and has never even opened a science textbook, where such explanations can be found quite easily.

For FEers:  How do you explain the fact that wherever we look, we see a curved horizon?  The fact is, if the earth was flat, we would be able to look in any direction that's not blocked by some kind of obstruction and see forever.  There would be no horizon.  But there is.  Which is the first proof that we had (thousands of years ago, when it was first stated) that the Earth is round.  The only rational explanation for a horizon is a curved surface.

But FEers like to ignore facts in favor of outlandish fantasy, don't they?  They are the flesh-and-blood embodiment of Stephen Colbert's "truthiness".

If somebody had told me yesterday that there were still people who believed that the earth was flat, I would have said "No fucking way.  I don't believe that.  Nobody's that stupid."  Now there's a whole group of them on the internet? :D
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: SNB on March 28, 2007, 04:50:28 PM
Well, here's my arguement: Proof isn't a burden. It's a priviledge!
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on March 29, 2007, 06:04:32 PM
It's hard to consider the mainstream position "trolling" so it's unlikely I'm projecting.  Maybe I'm wrong - you could always be a post-count whore, too.

On this board, the mainstream position is the Flat Earth. Or did you not notice... um... THE NAME OF THIS BOARD?!?!

lol. Lashing out randomly huh? The name of this board is not important considering it is a biased sample of the population. Nearly all people are capable of supporting one side or the other. In order to get an unbiased group for determining who has the burden of proof is to include the whole world. Coming as close as we can to that end, the FE still carry the burden. Anyways, even if we decided to include the site, there are more RE supporters on these forums than FE supporters.

By the way, we were invited to debate this issue. I am only accepting the invitation.

Still waiting Franc...  :(
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: silverhammermba on March 29, 2007, 08:20:36 PM
By the way, this thread is completely pointless.

Essentially by definition: whenever someone proposes a theory that challenges the norm, the "burden of proof" is upon them to prove their theory rather than for those in the norm to disprove it.

So, since a vast majority of the world believes that the Earth is round, and this whole resurfacing in FE belief challenges that, the burden of proof (regardless of how much evidence supports either side) lies with the FE'ers until they convince a majority of the world that the Earth is flat. Simply: since a round Earth is the currently accepted model, it is up to you flat Earthers to prove your theory - not up to round Earthers to disprove it (since our model is currently accepted as fact).

You can say that more evidence lies with FEism but to say that REers have the burden of proof is to redefine the term.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: CommonCents on March 30, 2007, 07:55:19 AM
I was under the impression that Occam's Razor said that "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."   meaning the solution which makes the fewest assumptions.   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

And because people hate Wiki for some reason:
Occam's razor (also spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating, or "shaving off", those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.
http://www.reference.com/search?q=occam's%20razor
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Darkfrog on March 31, 2007, 07:13:06 AM
I was under the impression that Occam's Razor said that "All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one."   meaning the solution which makes the fewest assumptions.   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

And because people hate Wiki for some reason:
Occam's razor (also spelled Ockham's razor) is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar William of Ockham. The principle states that the explanation of any phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, eliminating, or "shaving off", those that make no difference in the observable predictions of the explanatory hypothesis or theory.
http://www.reference.com/search?q=occam's%20razor
That is why I posted a bunch of the assumptions that an FE'er has to make
here http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=11937.msg165657#msg165657
Everything they come up with is a contrivance that is much more easily explained by the simpler model of a spherical earth (not to mention we have the ultimate proof now, observation from space).
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on March 31, 2007, 02:43:03 PM
RE'ers do not have the burden of proof.  The FE theory is endorsed by the Bible.  End of debate.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Game_Guru777 on March 31, 2007, 02:46:13 PM
RE'ers do not have the burden of proof.  The FE theory is endorsed by the Bible.  End of debate.

The Bible also said a virgin had a baby...
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Saddam Hussein on March 31, 2007, 02:51:26 PM
A virgin DID have a baby!  It was immaculate conception!  Why doesn't everyone understand that everything in the Bible is true!  It says so itself!
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Mr. Ireland on April 01, 2007, 01:20:39 PM
A virgin DID have a baby!  It was immaculate conception!  Why doesn't everyone understand that everything in the Bible is true!  It says so itself!

You're retarded.  Being I say that is true, it makes it true;  through your reasoning at least.
Title: Re: Round Earthers have the burden of proof.
Post by: Cartog on November 07, 2016, 10:01:45 PM
I don't really care about some rule of who has the burden of proof.  For all I care, both sides have to provide proof.  For the Round Earth, lots of evidence:  The change of perspective as the viewer's altitude rises, the shadow of the earth in lunar eclipses, the timing and effect of tides, the angular effects of views of the stars as we travel north or south, measurements that work only on a sphere, views from space vehicles, etc. etc.  On the side of the Flat Earth, not so much:  Accusing all scientists of taking bribes, accusing all governments of being part of some vast ancient conspiracy, etc.

The Flat Earth side cannot even provide a reliable map on flat paper of what is supposedly an equally flat earth. 
To me, the debate is decisively over.