The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => The Lounge => Topic started by: beast on February 02, 2007, 04:25:00 AM
-
We left Islam
Who we are:
We are ex-Muslims. Some of us were born and raised in Islam and some of us had converted to Islam at some moment in our lives. We were taught never to question the truth of Islam and to believe in Allah and his messenger with blind faith. We were told that Allah would forgive all sins but the sin of disbelief (Quran 4:48 and 4:116). But we committed the ultimate sin of thinking and questioned the belief that was imposed on us and we came to realize that far from being a religion of truth, Islam is a hoax, it is hallucination of a sick mind and nothing but lies and deceits.
What we believe:
Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to follow a religion to be good. All we need to follow is the Golden Rule. All we have to do is to treat others they way we expect to be treated. This is the essence of all the goodness. All good religious teachings stem from this eternal principle. This is the ultimate guidance humanity need. This is the Golden Rule.
Why Mohammed was not a prophet:
One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives and their “right hand possessions” (Quran 33:50) He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way. Muhammad was a narcissist like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified.
Why Quran is not from God:
Muhammad produced no miracles and when pressed he claimed that his miracle is the Quran. Yet a cursory look at the Quran reveals that this book is full of errors. Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. It is badly compiled and it contradicts itself. There is nothing intelligent in this book let alone miraculous. Muhammad challenged people to produce a “Surah like it” or find an error therein, yet Muslims would kill anyone who dares to criticize it. In such a climate of hypocrisy and violence truth is the first casualty.
What is our goal?
We are apostates of Islam. We denounce Islam as a false doctrine of hate and terror. However we are not against Muslims who are our own kin and relatives. We do not advocate hate and violence. Muslims are the main victims of Islam. Our goal is to educate them and let them see the truth. We are against Islam and not the Muslims. We strive to bring the Muslims into the fold of humanity. Eradicate Islam so our people can be liberated, so they can prosper and break away from the pillory of Islam. We would like to see Islamic countries dedicate more time to science and less time to Quran and Sharia. We would like to see them prosper and contribute to human civilization. We would like to see the draconian laws of Islam eliminated and people are treated humanely. We strive for freedom of beliefs, for equality of gender and for oneness of mankind.
Mankind’s biggest challenge:
Today the humanity is facing a great danger. Islamic fundamentalism is on the rise and the hatred is brewing in the minds of millions of Muslims. This hatred must be contained or there would be disastrous consequences. We believe that the education is the only answer. Muslim intellectuals must realize that Islam is a false doctrine and they must let the rest of Islamic world know the truth. Islam is a religion that thrives on the arrogant assumption that it is the most logical, the most scientific and the most perfect religion. While the fact is that it is the stupidest doctrine — the most backward and absurd belief. Once the truth about Islam becomes common knowledge, it will be weakened and the Islamic fanaticism will lose its fangs. Hundreds of billions of dollars are being expended to combat Islamic terrorism, yet no effort is made to contain the ideology behind this terrorism. It is our belief that Islamic terrorism will not be eliminated unless and until the ideology behind it is exposed and eradicated. This is what we intend to do.
-
Yes, This Is About Islam
By SALMAN RUSHDIE
LONDON -- "This isn't about Islam." The world's leaders have been repeating this mantra for weeks, partly in the virtuous hope of deterring reprisal attacks on innocent Muslims living in the West, partly because if the United States is to maintain its coalition against terror it can't afford to suggest that Islam and terrorism are in any way related.
The trouble with this necessary disclaimer is that it isn't true. If this isn't about Islam, why the worldwide Muslim demonstrations in support of Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda? Why did those 10,000 men armed with swords and axes mass on the Pakistan-Afghanistan frontier, answering some mullah's call to jihad? Why are the war's first British casualties three Muslim men who died fighting on the Taliban side?
Why the routine anti-Semitism of the much-repeated Islamic slander that "the Jews" arranged the hits on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, with the oddly self-deprecating explanation offered by the Taliban leadership, among others, that Muslims could not have the technological know-how or organizational sophistication to pull off such a feat? Why does Imran Khan, the Pakistani ex-sports star turned politician, demand to be shown the evidence of Al Qaeda's guilt while apparently turning a deaf ear to the self-incriminating statements of Al Qaeda's own spokesmen (there will be a rain of aircraft from the skies, Muslims in the West are warned not to live or work in tall buildings)? Why all the talk about American military infidels desecrating the sacred soil of Saudi Arabia if some sort of definition of what is sacred is not at the heart of the present discontents?
Of course this is "about Islam." The question is, what exactly does that mean? After all, most religious belief isn't very theological. Most Muslims are not profound Koranic analysts. For a vast number of "believing" Muslim men, "Islam" stands, in a jumbled, half-examined way, not only for the fear of God — the fear more than the love, one suspects — but also for a cluster of customs, opinions and prejudices that include their dietary practices; the sequestration or near-sequestration of "their" women; the sermons delivered by their mullahs of choice; a loathing of modern society in general, riddled as it is with music, godlessness and sex; and a more particularized loathing (and fear) of the prospect that their own immediate surroundings could be taken over — "Westoxicated" — by the liberal Western-style way of life.
Highly motivated organizations of Muslim men (oh, for the voices of Muslim women to be heard!) have been engaged over the last 30 years or so in growing radical political movements out of this mulch of "belief." These Islamists — we must get used to this word, "Islamists," meaning those who are engaged upon such political projects, and learn to distinguish it from the more general and politically neutral "Muslim" — include the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, the blood-soaked combatants of the Islamic Salvation Front and Armed Islamic Group in Algeria, the Shiite revolutionaries of Iran, and the Taliban. Poverty is their great helper, and the fruit of their efforts is paranoia. This paranoid Islam, which blames outsiders, "infidels," for all the ills of Muslim societies, and whose proposed remedy is the closing of those societies to the rival project of modernity, is presently the fastest growing version of Islam in the world.
This is not wholly to go along with Samuel Huntington's thesis about the clash of civilizations, for the simple reason that the Islamists' project is turned not only against the West and "the Jews," but also against their fellow Islamists. Whatever the public rhetoric, there's little love lost between the Taliban and Iranian regimes. Dissensions between Muslim nations run at least as deep, if not deeper, than those nations' resentment of the West. Nevertheless, it would be absurd to deny that this self-exculpatory, paranoiac Islam is an ideology with widespread appeal.
Twenty years ago, when I was writing a novel about power struggles in a fictionalized Pakistan, it was already de rigueur in the Muslim world to blame all its troubles on the West and, in particular, the United States. Then as now, some of these criticisms were well-founded; no room here to rehearse the geopolitics of the cold war and America's frequently damaging foreign policy "tilts," to use the Kissinger term, toward (or away from) this or that temporarily useful (or disapproved-of) nation-state, or America's role in the installation and deposition of sundry unsavory leaders and regimes. But I wanted then to ask a question that is no less important now: Suppose we say that the ills of our societies are not primarily America's fault, that we are to blame for our own failings? How would we understand them then? Might we not, by accepting our own responsibility for our problems, begin to learn to solve them for ourselves?
Many Muslims, as well as secularist analysts with roots in the Muslim world, are beginning to ask such questions now. In recent weeks Muslim voices have everywhere been raised against the obscurantist hijacking of their religion. Yesterday's hotheads (among them Yusuf Islam, a k a Cat Stevens) are improbably repackaging themselves as today's pussycats.
An Iraqi writer quotes an earlier Iraqi satirist: "The disease that is in us, is from us." A British Muslim writes, "Islam has become its own enemy." A Lebanese friend, returning from Beirut, tells me that in the aftermath of the attacks on Sept. 11, public criticism of Islamism has become much more outspoken. Many commentators have spoken of the need for a Reformation in the Muslim world.
I'm reminded of the way noncommunist socialists used to distance themselves from the tyrannical socialism of the Soviets; nevertheless, the first stirrings of this counterproject are of great significance. If Islam is to be reconciled with modernity, these voices must be encouraged until they swell into a roar. Many of them speak of another Islam, their personal, private faith.
The restoration of religion to the sphere of the personal, its depoliticization, is the nettle that all Muslim societies must grasp in order to become modern. The only aspect of modernity interesting to the terrorists is technology, which they see as a weapon that can be turned on its makers. If terrorism is to be defeated, the world of Islam must take on board the secularist-humanist principles on which the modern is based, and without which Muslim countries' freedom will remain a distant dream.
Salman Rushdie is the author, most recently, of "Fury: A Novel."
-
Islam
Mohammad, the founder of Islam saw that like previous 'prophets', he too could invent a religion and proclaim his thoughts to be from the 'Creator'. This would give him power over his relatively illiterate and dumb audience. One of the reason why he created Islam was that he wanted to control people and rule over them.
This is what Islam is in a nutshell - A collection of manipulative lies created by one of the most malicious men to have lived on Earth.
This clever system of lies (or Islam) capitalizes on (makes use of) several things.
1) Islam takes advantage of previous liars who pretended to be prophets of “God”.
Every new 'liar' would try to find better ways to deceive the public. One of the earliest liar was the caveman who boasted about being able to talk to the Rain God. If everyone obeyed him, he would make sure Rain would fall on their crops. Mohammed the Liar was an advanced version of this caveman- like Windows XP, as compared to MS DOS.
2) Islam makes use of mankind’s : - age old fear of fire: The (Un)Holy Quran keeps repeating threats of Hellfire to anyone who doesnt obey Allah, the false God.
- desire to live an eternal life after they have died (the survival instinct)
- desire to beleive in a God, who will listen to their problems, and provide justice to them if they have been violated in any way. Beleif in a God reassures mankind that there is someone who is powerful, responsible and 'good' who will take care of them, now in this life, and then in the 'afterlife'.
- men’s almost insatiable desire for sex - by promising beleiving men to be rewarded with beautiful women in paradise. (Quran 44:54)
3) Islam makes use of man's high vulnerability to develop low self-esteem and their tendency to keep it in the system.
The low self-esteem can be created by abuse in younger years, and is almost always passed on to next generations. Islam is a system that further degrades Humans and pushes them down the low self-esteem trap by:
a) telling the beleiver that they have no right to live life their own way, and are only infact, a slave of Allah, who they must obey in order to avoid Hellfire.
b) giving lesser self-esteem to women (advising a man to beat his wife[Quran 4:34], lesser testimonial rights [Quran 4:11], covering up in a veil as if she can only be a sex object [various hadith and quran] etc.). Women with low self-esteem will raise children who have low self-esteem as well. Once low self-esteem enters a family system, its hard to build it up, because nature shows that Destruction is easy, while Contruction is hard and takes more time.
Islam: A plague
Islam is the worst plague to have hit humanity. The Bubonic plague physically killed 25 million people in Europe in the 1300's. Islam is a more serious illness, which has mentally infected about 1 billion people and continues to effect the rest of the 5 billion population of Earth. The religion is very destructive and dangerous, and threatens peace on Earth.
-
Quran
To Muslims, Quran is a holy book, revealed directly to Mohammed through the angel Gibrael. To them, it the absolute truth, the last message to mankind from the Creator of this Universe.
In reality, Quran is a creation of Mohammed's mind and includes collections of stories, brainwashing techniques, general common sense and morals, and some "scientific" statements.
All these elements were either common sense, were borrowed from other religions and sources, or were invented by Mohammed.
A good study of what Mohammed borrowed from other sources, can be studied at the Answering Islam site.
The reason why Quran is not divine, is that, it contains many defects, contradictions, wrong morals and incorrect science, and on top of it, all this has been copied from other sources.
All of Quran's scientific miracles have been refuted many times, such as on the Faith Freedom International website.
Had "Allah" been a true God, He would have made the Quran infinitely strong in such a way that any human being, no matter how hard he/she tried, would never be able to point out any defect in it.
Instead, today, Islam is the World's most hatred and criticised religion, and Quran is being called the "manual of Terrorism".
So, could Quran truely be the "last" message to mankind by the Creator of this wonderful Universe?
Common sense replies with a firm negative.
As a summary of what the Quran actually is all about:
- In most of the verses, Quran keeps praising Allah the non-existent God. When you read the Quran, almost every now and then you'll see familiar verses like 'And Allah is merciful, forgiving' (SURE he is).
- It gives many threats of Hellfire, as well as gives promises of Heaven- this is to entice the believer into action, using this simple push/pull strategy which is used by other religions as well but not to the extent which is used in Islam.
- Quran contains orders for Muslims, how they should live their lives. Not all aspects of life are covered, an example being masterbation, or using your friends login information to access confidential information on company computers.
- Quran contains events and stories of the past. They were mostly copied from other religions. Check here for detailed information on this.
- Quran contains a sprinking of 'scientific' statements, which tried to impress the illiterate reader 1400 years ago. That was the era in which the Sun and the Moon were thought to go around the Earth. Today we know these 'scientific statements' to actually contain wrong science, as well as stuff copied from other religions and scientists of those time. An example is the idea of sperm being generated in the Backbone[Quran 86:6]. This idea was proposed by Greek scientists, and copied by Mohammed. If we had copyright laws 1400 years ago, Mohammed would have been jailed for copyright infringement and there would be no Islam today. Sadly, it was the era in which people buried their infant daughters and thus he took advantage of the fact that people around him were inhuman Arabs with *no* moral sense. Thus, Quran has *little* moral sense, when comparing to universal standards.
If the Quran was 100% bad, it would die out quickly. For this reason, Mohammed included some good things in Quran, so good people would support the Quran and keep Islam alive.
At the same, terrorists act out on the bad teachings of Quran, resulting in global terrorism whose painful effects have been and are being experienced by everyone.
It is these bad teachings of Quran that have jeapordized the Global peace process. One of the many excellent articles which illustrates this point while citing evidence from Quran, can be read here on the FFI web site.
Islamic terrorism will continue to injure mankind and create misery on Earth, until Islam ceases to exist.
-
Hadith (also known as Sunnah/Sunnat)
s in almost all religions, Mohammed was greatly revered by his followers. They wanted to live their life like he did. So when Mohammed was living, people noted and remembered what he did, and said. These stories and reports are called the Hadith (pronounced 'Hadees').
In most cases, the stories were true. There are reports of some hadith being fabricated (sites: *1, *2, *3) for political gain, but most hadith are true and beleived by most Muslims. Some of them have been incorporated into Islamic laws (Shariah), such as cutting of hands, stoning to death, half inferitance and testimonial rights of women, violation of women's rights such as compulsory veiliing, ban on driving, requirement of 4 witnesses in event of a woman being raped, etc.
Once I was in a mosque, when I was a muslim, and they told me, that the 'sunnat' way of sleeping was on your right side. Similarly, other hadith tell us about ways to do other things in life. Most of them dont make sense and often preach wrong moral ideas. Some do, but again, the clever Mohammed included good things in Islam to catch people's attention. If Islam was 100% evil, it would not have so many followers as it does today. An example of hadith not making sense is rubbing ourselves with an odd number of stones after we've attended a nature call.
Hadith that make sense talk about being good to your neighbour (Do we need a prophet to tell us this?). Other sensible stuff in Hadith is derived from common sense and other religions.
Many hadith teach wrong moral ideas, An example of one of the most violent ones is to order to kill anyone who has left Islam. Numerous hadith encourage hatred and violence against non-Muslims.
So this is hadith in a nutshell and we hope we have clarified enough in as short concise manner as possible. If you need more clarification, please dont hesitate to contact us. We'll answer your questions and include them in the FAQ section.
There is a growing number of Muslims who dont beleive in Hadith. Eventually, Muslims will let go of Quran as well and become apostates just like us.
There are some hadith which call for our killing, and this is what concerns apostates most. Mohammed knew apostates of Islam could easily shake up people's beleifs. For this reason, he ordered to kill us, as demonstrated in the following hadith:
"Whoever changes his religion, kill him."
[Bukhari, Hakim, Ibn Abi Shaybah, Tabarani]
A web site which reports on what has actually happened to apostates in muslim countries is give here: http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/apostacy.html
-
Muhammed
Muhammed was an Arab man, who lived 1400 years ago.
To realize his desire to rule over people, and satisfy his above-average sexual desires, he lied to everyone that he was receiving revelations from God.
Comparing to his surrounding people who were immoral enough to bury their infant daughers, he was a relatively clever guy, intelligent, but evil to the core. Studying Islam almost makes one think Mohammed was the devil himself which he kept talking of.
From a muslim perspective, Mohammed was a kind truthful man, and the true last prophet of God.
Read the Quran and Hadith and decide for yourself.
This is all there is to him. He was an evil liar and a violent man with a larger than usual sexual appetite. He was a pedophile, because when he was 54 years old, he married a 9 year old little girl. He was old enough to be her grandfather.
If Mohammed was truelly a prophet, he would have set better examples.
If Allah was a true god, he would know that Mohammed would be called a pedophile in the future. How could Allah allow his last messenger to be called a pedophile in the future? Was it necessary for Mohammed to have married a 9 year old little girl and result in being called a pedophile later on?
Character defects like these and many other factors, such as the absence of miracles in Quran disqualify Mohammed as being the last messenger of God.
-
Why Allah cannot be a God
If you are a Muslim and can tell me why Allah is a God, please read my FAQ, and if your question is not answered there, contact me. I will answer your question and will include it in my FAQ section.
There are many reasons why Allah cannot be a God:
1) Quran shows no signs of being a divine book.
This can be subdivided into:
a) There are no miracles in Quran, and thus no sign that men or man could not have created this book.
b) Instead, Quran has wrong science in it, and wrong moral ideas.
c) If Quran was truely from God, it would contain knowledge that we are not aware of yet. You think Quran has science? Read about the pre-Islamic scientific World and the wonderful scientists who were born before Islam came. If Quran wanted to convey science, why did it not convey all the science we know of? Instead, it conveyed either common sense, OR ideas stolen from Greek scientists. There is every reason I can give to tell you how Mohammed stole from Greeks. Remember, you do not have to be educated to hear a scientists knowledge from far-away lands, and lie to people around you to claim the scientific knowledge as "revealed" from God!
Thus the claim that Mohammed was not educated and could not have known all this, is FALSE!
d) A real God would not allow his important message to be taken in a wrong way:
Quran is supposed to be an important message for humanity, rioght. If Quran was an important message to humanity from a real God, its Creator would have made SURE that the message would not be taken in a wrong way. The day is coming when more and more people are hating Islam. Assuming that Quran was from God, it is unfortunate to be born in such an era, where this important message of God is being hated so much.
Would the real creator (if he exists) allow any of His dear creation to be born in a place where His message was being hated so much, and thus not receive the message in the correct context? Ofcourse not.
The message of a Real God to his creation, would be very important and there would be NO one who would be able to tarnish the clean image of his message.
We have sane people finding faults with Quran and talking about using it as toilet paper. Would a real God allow this to happen to his message?
Not if he thought his message was important!
God wants to test us? For what? Are we the guineu pigs of the Universe? No, we're not! God doesnt even have any rights on us!
e) God would never declare his previous messages to be false, and only the latest one(Islam) to be true.
A real God would NEVER say this:
"And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" -Quran 48:13
This verse is clearly talking about Islam and not just any Messenger or religion. There is another verse which says that "no religion will be accepted of man except Islam". (3:85).
f) A real God would not violate our rights.
Besides the above reasons, there is another logical explanation of why Allah cannot be a God.
Allah is a God who becomes offended if you abuse or disobey him. What kind of weak God is that?
Here is an explanation, of why:
1) God cannot be offended when man abuses him. 2) Allah cannot be a true god. I will present two approaches to prove this. First, I will prove by logical reasoning that Allah cannot be a God. Then, I will present an analogy to support my claim further.
2) Logical Reasoning
God is supposed to be an infinitely powerful being. It is not possible to have any power or influence over an infinitely powerful being. It is not possible to effect God in any way.
I cannot make God angry, niether can I make him happy. If I could make God happy or angry, it would mean that I have some control over God's emotions. Thus, I would have some control over God. But such a God, whose emotions (anger) I can control, cannot be a God. When even a billion blackholes, which have the power to bend light, due to enormous gravitational attraction, cannot effect God, then can I, a 65 Kg man, effect God in any way? No.Now, let us study Allah, the God of Muslims. A muslim is told to worship Allah and praise him. Allah created man to worship him (Q:51.56). We know that Allah will punish all those who dont beleive in him Quran 48.13 "And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!" Thus, if Allah will punish anyone who does'nt beleive in him, he will also punish anyone who abuses him. But if Allah punishes anyone who abuses him, it means that Allah is offended when a human abuses him. This means that a human being can offend Allah, by either disobeying his orders, or abusing him. If a human can offend Allah, it means that the human being has control over Allah's emotions. A human being has control over Allah's anger and thus has partial control over Allah. But we know from our earlier discussion, that a being cannot be a God, if its emotions can be controlled by a human being.
Note: Abusing another human is a different matter, because a human can be effected by abuse, since she/he is not infinitely powerful, as God is. It makes sense to say that if God existed, he would provide justice to all those who were abused in any way, and would give punishment to those who abused the humans. BUT, God would not be angry at the criminals. The role of a good judge is to provide justice, without being effected by hate or anger, induced by the criminal. If Allah can become angry due to a human abusing him, the rule of Allah being the strongest entity is violated. Conclusion: Allah, the God of Muslims, can not be a God. Now I will present an analogy to make this explanation more clear.
Analogy
A guy whom we shall call 'X', is doing a study on social behaviors, decides to do an experiment. He wants to see the reaction of abuse on different types of people. He goes out on a street to meet people and chooses one guy whom he calls 'A'.
X says some verbal abuse and racial remarks to 'A'. But 'A' is a cool-headed guy and does not mind the abuse. Instead, he thinks to himself, that this guy must be insane. 'A' does not let his anger grow and just looks on to 'X' with amusement and raises his eyebrows and then ignores ‘X’, thinking its nothing to be serious about. X notes down the reaction of 'A' in his research journal and walks away to find another guy, whom he calls 'B'. Now, ‘B’ is a hot headed guy, who can become angry on the smallest of things. ‘X’ calls him some verbal abuse along with racial remarks. ‘B’'s anger shoots up very quickly and his blood begins to boil. He starts abusing ‘X’ in return, making even bigger and more vulgar abuse to ‘X’, telling him to '#$^@ off'. ‘B’ starts coming near ‘X’ and it looks like hes ready to punch X in the face. Before ‘B’ can do that, ‘X’ runs away for his life and disappears.
His study is complete. Which person, 'A' or 'B', has the greater character strength ? If you were to choose a leader for a group, who would you choose between 'A' and 'B' ? The vast majority of people would chose 'A' as the leader, who has more strong character, and has proven to be more resistant to attacks than ‘B’. Lets transfer this example to God’s. Suppose there are two God's.
One of them is God ‘B’, who is a sensitive God and for him, its easy to become angry when a human abuses him. So down on the planet, there is a man who abuses God B. God B becomes angry and he plans to punish the human for what he did. The God plans to burn the human and give him all sorts of pain when he dies. The other God, called God A, is cool-headed and when He sees a human being abuse Him, He doesn't mind, because his ego is not so sensitive as that of God B. God A loves humans unconditionally and infinitely. When He sees the human abuse Him, he thinks to himself that this human might be crazy and he forgives that human. He knows that abuse doesn't effect him. He still loves the human, and he knows that a human cannot harm Him in any way. When the human will die, he will see for himself, how loving God is.
So God A says to himself : “Nevermind, he's a human, my loved creation, it doesn’t matter to me if he believes in me or not. His belief or disbelief does not effect ME because I have infinite power over all things. I cannot be effected by even a million black holes, let alone a 65 kg 5’6” tall human, who will live only 70 years.” Which of the Gods, A or B, is more strong and loving ? Which of God do you think rules the universe?
A large majority of the people would choose God 'A', the one who is not affected by human abuse or love and loves his creation infinitely. If Allah is infinite in power, he is infinite in strength of personal character. If Allah can become angry due to a human abusing him, the rule of Allah being the strongest entity is violated.
Conclusion:
God, if exists, does not and cannot become angry when a human praises/abuses him. Thus, Allah, the god of Muslims, who can be offended by abuse, can NOT be a true god.
* * *
Abul Kasem
-
Islam's violation of Human Rights
Islam clashes severely with the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) in the following ways:
Violation of Article 1 and 2: Islam gives lesser rights to the females as compared to males.
Violation of Article 5 (& 18) : Islam gives cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment to those who dont beleive in Islam.
Violation of Article 18 : Islam does not give humans beings, the right to choose their religion.
There are other violations of human rights, which are being done by various muslim countries, such as:
Violation of Article 19 : In Pakistan and Afghanistan, Freedom of speech is prohibited and punishable by law.
Violation of Article 23 (1) & 26 (1): In Afghanistan, female employment and education is restricted and in some cases, banned.
Violation of Article 1 and 2 of the UDHR
Article 1 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 2:
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.
But the Quran declares that:
Men are created one step higher than women.
Good women should be obedient to their husbands.
Women inherit only half of what a man inherits.
Witness of 2 women equals Witness of 1 man.
Quran 4.34 : Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
Quran 2.228 : Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Quran 4.11 : Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females.
Quran 2.282 : O you who believe! when you deal with each other in contracting a debt for a fixed time, then write it down; and let a scribe write it down between you with fairness; and the scribe should not refuse to write as Allah has taught him, so he should write; and let him who owes the debt dictate, and he should be careful of (his duty to) Allah, his Lord, and not diminish anything from it; but if he who owes the debt is unsound in understanding, or weak, or (if) he is not able to dictate himself, let his guardian dictate with fairness; and call in to witness from among your men two witnesses; but if there are not two men, then one man and two women from among those whom you choose to be witnesses, so that if one of the two errs, the second of the two may remind the other
Violation of Article 5 (& 18) of the UDHR
Article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.
But the Quran says that:
Those who dont beleive in Islam will burn in hell forever.
Those who reject Islam will be forced to drink boiling fetid water, and they will still not die after going through this unthinkable torture.
Those who deny 'Allah' will be punished by pouring boiling water on their heads, and forcing them to wear clothes made from fire. This will cause their bodies to be scalded and burnt both from inside and outside. Their skin and whatever there is in their abdomens, will be melted.
Furthermore, they will be punished with chains and whips made from Iron.
And If they try to run from all these torturous suffering, they shall be forced to turn back into it.
Quran 14.16 : In front of such a one is Hell, and he is given, for drink, boiling fetid water.
Quran 14.17 : In gulps will he sip it, but never will he be near swallowing it down his throat: death will come to him from every quarter, yet will he not die: and in front of him will be a chastisement unrelenting.
Quran 22.19 : These twain (the believers and the disbelievers) are two opponents who contend concerning their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads,
Quran 22.20 : With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.
Quran 22.21 : And for them are whips of iron.
Quran 76.4 : For the Rejecters we have prepared chains, yokes, and a blazing Fire.
In Iran, and Afghanistan, brutal punishments are give for extra-marital sex.
Stoning to death was ordered by Mohammed, and is still used in Iran. This is a very cruel brutal punishment and its only aim is to inflict maximum pain on the individual.
Muslims in Afghanistan and Iran can be flogged for consuming alchohol, slandering or for adultery while they are not married.
Flogging is ordered by the Quran:
And those who accuse free women and bring not for witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes."59 For the adulterer, God says :"The adulteress and the adulterer, flog each of them with a hundred stripes." 60 s
These punishments are condemned by the International Community (Stonings: 1 2 3 4, Floggings: 1 2 3)
A video of flogging and stoning to death is available here.
Islam also orders cutting of hands and feet :
Quran 5.38 As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.
Violation of Article 18 of the UDHR
Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.
But the Quran says that:
Any religion except Islam will not be accepted
Quran 3.85 : If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost.
This is also mentioned in Violation 5, where those who dont beleive in Allah, will be tortured severely.
Violation of Article 19 of the UDHR
Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
Pakistan, Afghanistan and other muslim countries do not allow freedom of speech, regarding criticism on Mohammed, the prophet of Islam. This has taken the shape of a Blasphemy Law, where any person who speaks negatively about Mohammed, can be given death sentence or life imprisonment and/or fine.
An example of this is the recent death sentence given to Dr. Younus Shiekh (Info: 1 2 3 4) for correctly pointing out that the Prophet Mohammed did not become Muslim until the age of 40 (which was when he received his first revelation) and that his parents were non-Muslims (as they died before Islam was proposed by the Prophet).
Violation of Article 23 (1) and 26 (1) of the UDHR
Article 23 (1) of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:
Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
Article 26 (1) states:
Everyone has the right to education.
But in Afghanistan, a muslim country, girls are not allowed education (1 2 3) . Girls schools are banned and those caught running these schools, can be punished by law (Info: 1 2 3 video report ).
This continued for about 5 years, during the reign of the Taliban, the oppressive Islamic extremists, who were finally eliminated by the Americans. (Thankyou, America)
* * *
Abul Kasem
-
Burning in hell forever: Islam's absurd punishment
"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system." - Thomas Paine
In Islam, burning in hell forever is a punishment given to disbeleivers; those who dont beleive in the quran:
Quran 4.14 : And whoso disobeyeth Allah and His messenger and transgresseth His limits, He will make him enter Fire, where he will dwell for ever; his will be a shameful doom.
If Allah said that a certain person will burn in hell forever, this is a lie. It is not possible for someone to burn in hell forever.
Ask me why ? Here is the logic. I invite all Muslims to follow this ONE argument which I give here, and follow it step-by-step and tell me where I am wrong?
1) A human being is a finite being
2) Thus he can only commit a finite amount of sin in his entire life. The sin maybe a LOT, but it will NEVER be infinite sin. It would always be a certain definable quantity of sin.
3) Burning in hell forever is an Infinite sin.
4) It is NOT fair to punish a finite amount of sin with Infinite punishment.
5) Thus burning in hell forever is unfair and wrong.
Finite 'good' may be rewarded with infinite 'reward', and no one will object to that but to punish finite sin with infinite punishment is nothing but CRUELTY and insanity
Abul Kasem
-
FAQ's about the Apostates of Islam
1. Who are we?
We were Muslims and have left Islam. We're from all over the World. Click here to see which countries we are from.
2. Why this website, when there are so many other websites against Islam?
Till now, there has not been any website that creates an online community of Ex-Muslims. This site serves this important purpose.
3. Do you hate Muslims?
No we don't, but we do hate Islam, because it hates us and non-Muslims and threats peace on Earth.
Typical Muslims do not know and do not want to know that Islam is evil; they only see the good points in Islam. For fear of hellfear and the fear of losing the chance to get big breasted women with large eyes, they will not see the truth, no matter how much sense it may make.
4.If Islam is false, what IS the truth?
The truth is that Islam is a false religion. All religions are false and man made. No one knows whether or not God exists but certainly, He cannot be the God depicted in any of the religions.
5. What are your beliefs?
Most of us are agnostics and athiests. Some of us have have taken up other faiths like Christianity and Hinduism, but this site does not support any religion. It will only talk about Islam.
All religions are man made, and thus it doesnt make any sense to follow any one of them. The truth is only that we dont know if God exists or not. If he does, he is certainly not any of the Gods depicted in any religion on Earth, including Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Bhuddism and Hinduism. All these religions are manmade.
I can also claim to be a messenger of God. The only thing that can validate my claim is the fact that my "message" has qualities and characteristics that could not be created by Humans.
If God chooses to reveal a religion, he will make SURE that it contains super-human qualities, otherwise, it may be mistaken for a Human message.
Quran does not have ANY super human qualities and infact has defects of all kinds.
This shows, that Quran is not a book from God, but a lie from Mohammed.
-
Those are the main articles; there is a lot more, of course. Read every word Northrider - you have nothing to lose, and a world to gain. I'm sorry for the formatting problems.
-
good writeup. I suggest reading Islam Unveiled By Robert Spencer. It exposes a lot of the bullshit in Islam and why it is dire that we confront it now.
-
You have too much time on your hands anymore, beast.
-
Great posts, I will show them to as many Muslims as I can.
-
Northrider: try accessing http://www.apostatesofislam.com/ from http://proxy.org/
-
'Why I am Not A Muslim: The Origins of Islam' by Ibn Warraq
is a particularly informative source as it contains an English language translation (or at least paraphrase) of the 'Doctrina Jacobi,' the earliest Greek language history of the ishmaelite movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_I_Am_Not_a_Muslim
-
Beast is trapped in non-sequitur logic. :(
-
Beast is trapped in non-sequitur logic.
What we believe:
Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to follow a religion to be good.
Beast's attitude towards islam is different than mine in an important way because his anti-islam is purely negative. Beast intends to replace islam with something worse than islam - atheistic humanism, or no religion at all. This kind of anti-islamic sentiment has become popular since the breakup of the Soviet Union as it has to a large extent replaced anti-communism as the fools' mania-of-the-day.
-
Beast is trapped in non-sequitur logic.
What we believe:
Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to follow a religion to be good.
Beast attitude towards islam is different than mine in an important way because his anti-islam is purely negative. Beast intends to replace islam with something worse than islam - atheistic humanism, or no religion at all. This kind of anti-islamic sentiment has become popular since the breakup of the Soviet Union as it has to alarge extent replaced anti-communism as the fools' mania-of-the-day.
Atheistic humanism isn't a bad thing. In fact, it's a good thing for the most part. Islam is also a good thing. It's just some people tend to perverse the beliefs. The belief itself is good, it's the people who use it, they are the ones who are bad.
-
Islam is also a good thing. It's just some people tend to perverse the beliefs. The belief itself is good, it's the people who use it, they are the ones who are bad.
That's like saying poison gas chambers are good, but the people who use them are bad. The existence of an instrument of torment and death is still considered a negative impact on human beings of its own right.
-
Islam is also a good thing. It's just some people tend to perverse the beliefs. The belief itself is good, it's the people who use it, they are the ones who are bad.
That's like saying poison gas chambers are good, but the people who use them are bad. The existence of an instrument of torment and death is still considered a negative impact on human beings of its own right.
How is religion synonymous with a gas chamber? A gas chamber is a concrete object, religion is an abstraction. Do you have to make yourself look like a quasi-intellectual at every turn? If this is what all atheists are like, I might just turn theistic just so I can stop being compared to you idiots. You're dumber than a Mormon, and they believe some really crazy shit.
-
Atheistic humanism isn't a bad thing.
Islam is also a good thing.
This is where we would (agree to) disagree.
I considre the pan-religious ecumenical movement to be the chief heresy of this age as it is the one heresy that unites all the heresies - unites all the religions. This was the case both during the Cold War and today, and it is both a more perennial and important issue than either communist or islamic politics.
http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/index.html
-
How is religion synonymous with a gas chamber? A gas chamber is a concrete object, religion is an abstraction. Do you have to make yourself look like a quasi-intellectual at every turn? If this is what all atheists are like, I might just turn theistic just so I can stop being compared to you idiots. You're dumber than a Mormon, and they believe some really crazy shit.
You've got me laughing. I have to hand it to you, SPrinkZ. You are the more reasonable man there.
-
Atheistic humanism isn't a bad thing.
Islam is also a good thing.
This is where we would (agree to) disagree.
I considre the pan-religious ecumenical movement to be the chief heresy of this age as it is the one heresy that unites all the heresies - unites all the religions. This was the case both during the Cold War and today, and it is both a more perennial and important issue than either communist or islamic politics.
http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/index.html
You're entitled to believe that. We'll see what happens. I think at the root of it, men seek to do good. Unfortunately some men also seek to do bad, and play upon the anxiety of the weak-minded, and then when you get enough idiots in large numbers they can do serious damage.
-
Islam is also a good thing. It's just some people tend to perverse the beliefs. The belief itself is good, it's the people who use it, they are the ones who are bad.
That's like saying poison gas chambers are good, but the people who use them are bad. The existence of an instrument of torment and death is still considered a negative impact on human beings of its own right.
How is religion synonymous with a gas chamber?
It's analogous, not synonymous.
A gas chamber is a concrete object, religion is an abstraction. Do you have to make yourself look like a quasi-intellectual at every turn? If this is what all atheists are like, I might just turn theistic just so I can stop being compared to you idiots. You're dumber than a Mormon, and they believe some really crazy shit.
Your ad-hominem attacks are mildly humourous, but they do not further your argument. Islam has a long history of human rights abuses, including the treatment of women as second class citizens, Islamic countries which have the death penalty for apotasy, homosexuality and theft, the fact that the Qu'ran supports slavery, allows men to hit their wives, etc.
-
Islam is also a good thing. It's just some people tend to perverse the beliefs. The belief itself is good, it's the people who use it, they are the ones who are bad.
That's like saying poison gas chambers are good, but the people who use them are bad. The existence of an instrument of torment and death is still considered a negative impact on human beings of its own right.
How is religion synonymous with a gas chamber?
It's analogous, not synonymous.
A gas chamber is a concrete object, religion is an abstraction. Do you have to make yourself look like a quasi-intellectual at every turn? If this is what all atheists are like, I might just turn theistic just so I can stop being compared to you idiots. You're dumber than a Mormon, and they believe some really crazy shit.
Your ad-hominem attacks are mildly humourous, but they do not further your argument. Islam has a long history of human rights abuses, including the treatment of women as second class citizens, Islamic countries which have the death penalty for apostasy, homosexuality and theft, the fact that the Qu'ran supports slavery, allows men to hit their wives, etc.
It's not analogous either. A concrete object and an abstraction are not even remotely close.
Especially one designed with the EXPLICIT purpose to kill. Religion has caused a lot of good as well. I am a native American, if I am defending religion, trust me...I have a very good reason. My entire tribe was pretty much put to extinction over divine right.
Still, religion has done good. It's safe to say that it does more good than bad, or we'd all be dead, correct?
Also, what is humourous?
[edit]
We have the death penalty here, and this nation was forged on secularism essentially. What's wrong with religion again?
-
I am a native American, if I am defending religion, trust me...I have a very good reason. My entire tribe was pretty much put to extinction over divine right.
The wicked British and american empires which perverted religion were not Christian at all.
I have the deepest respect for the First Nations, the only legitimate and genuine owners of 'North America' though that is not its real name (the ancient Hellenes seem to have called it hyperborea which means Land betond the North).
Ever read any Ward Churchill?
http://www.citylights.com/pub/catalog/BClittlematter.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Churchill
http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read.html?id=2739
We have the death penalty here, and this nation was forged on secularism essentially.
Exactly.
The death penalty was not the law in Christian Orthodox Tsarist Russia. I am not saying there are no exceptions, but I have not come across any, and more importantly - the more Christian a civilization, the more extinct and illegal is the death penalty.
During the past few centuries, the death penalty has gradually gained legal status worldwide as Christian laws were simutaneously abandoned.
Anyone who does not believe in God at all is a fool.
-
It's not analogous either. A concrete object and an abstraction are not even remotely close.
The analogy is between their harmful effects.
Especially one designed with the EXPLICIT purpose to kill. Religion has caused a lot of good as well. I am a native American, if I am defending religion, trust me...I have a very good reason. My entire tribe was pretty much put to extinction over divine right.
Still, religion has done good. It's safe to say that it does more good than bad, or we'd all be dead, correct?
Also, what is humourous?
[edit]
We have the death penalty here, and this nation was forged on secularism essentially. What's wrong with religion again?
Religion? The original discussion was about Islam. You said "the belief is good, it's the people who use it, they are the ones who are bad."
The belief is not inherently good as I pointed out. That was my argument, feel free to respond to it as you wish.
-
Anyone who does not believe in God at all is a fool.
And what right do you have to judge us if we don't? How does that make anyone a worse person?
-
Anyone who does not believe in God at all is a fool.
And what right do you have to judge us if we don't?
Apologize if that came off as judging people as I should have either included the reference or made clear that it is the decision to disbelieve rather than certain people themselves which I consıdre foolish. In this case, that was a quote from Solomon's proverbs.
How does that make anyone a worse person?
I genuinely prefer to avoid referring to and thinking of others as worse people, but I do believe that aside from the matter of false belief that atheistic belief is not in anyone's best interest. God did give people the ability to believe or even disbelieve in Him so it is an atheist's own choice to disbelieve in God as it is mine to believe. I am just saying that I do not recommend it, and I do not have anything to gain from saying so.
I do believe that more often than not many atheists and agnostics are closer to God than the small believers. I do not say that atheists are in the right, and I am not mentioning anyone specifically, but the deepest enemies of God are the 'small' believers (i.e. hypocrites who use religion) rather than those who are exterior unbelievers.
-
Atheistic humanism isn't a bad thing.
Islam is also a good thing.
Orthodox Christians have been at the forefront of opposition to Islam since Islam began, and humanist (especially atheistic) opposition to Islam is much more recent. Never the less, both are enemies of Islam albeit to a large extent for different reasons.
We'll see what happens.
The Ishmaelite power (Islam) will be destroyed by the West in a successful military war led by a Christian monarch, but not until the West first destroys itself by infighting so violent as to form a river of blood running through Constantinople and to such an extent that not a solitary sinner or non-Christian remains in the entire West. Then the West will be ready to conquer the Ishmaelites. What is requıred to defeat islam is not numbers or military might, but righteousness.
This statement is not a policy proposal. It is the essence of a tenth century prophecy. I intend to post a full translation.
-
It's my belief that atheists are the level headed ones. We don't go out and destroy people's homes, or kill other people themselves because someone doesn't agree with what we believe in.
Religious people are some of the most ignorant "fools" I have ever seen in my life, and the middle east is the basic proof of that.
In the end, it's my conscience that rules how I live my life, and as such, when the hour of atonement comes, I shall be judged upon that, and will have no other choice but to accept the graces of God... If he does exist, which I don't believe he does anyway, so why should I waste my time putting into something that logically doesn't exist? Or something that actually makes fools out of people. Radicals. Terrorists.. etc.
-
It's my belief that atheists are the level headed ones. We don't go out and destroy people's homes, or kill other people themselves because someone doesn't agree with what we believe in.
Religious people are some of the most ignorant "fools" I have ever seen in my life, and the middle east is the basic proof of that.
In the end, it's my conscience that rules how I live my life, and as such, when the hour of atonement comes, I shall be judged upon that, and will have no other choice but to accept the graces of God... If he does exist, which I don't believe he does anyway, so why should I waste my time putting into something that logically doesn't exist? Or something that actually makes fools out of people. Radicals. Terrorists.. etc.
Stalin.
-
It's not analogous either. A concrete object and an abstraction are not even remotely close.
The analogy is between their harmful effects.
Especially one designed with the EXPLICIT purpose to kill. Religion has caused a lot of good as well. I am a native American, if I am defending religion, trust me...I have a very good reason. My entire tribe was pretty much put to extinction over divine right.
Still, religion has done good. It's safe to say that it does more good than bad, or we'd all be dead, correct?
Also, what is humourous?
[edit]
We have the death penalty here, and this nation was forged on secularism essentially. What's wrong with religion again?
Religion? The original discussion was about Islam. You said "the belief is good, it's the people who use it, they are the ones who are bad."
The belief is not inherently good as I pointed out. That was my argument, feel free to respond to it as you wish.
A gas chamber has the explicit purpose to kill. It does nothing else.
Religion does many things, it creates order, or chaos. It can help, it can hurt.
-
Stalin.
Did not do what he did because he was an atheist. You should know that.
-
Stalin.
Did not do what he did because he was an atheist. You should know that.
He still was an atheist. Atheists can do evil too, let's not forget it. Plus, secularism has been used to justify murder before.
Social Darwinism.
-
We never said they couldn't. We just said that no atheist performs evil in the name of atheism.
-
He did not do what he did in the name of religion. Get it right, asstart.
-
We never said they couldn't. We just said that no atheist performs evil in the name of atheism.
I'm sure someone will find a way. :)
-
I have yet to see it.
-
I have yet to see it.
You're absolutely right, but it seems that any good intention can be perverted. Even Darwin's completely scientific belief, which is non-partisan to, and which has nothing to do with violence. It was later used to justify the extirpation of the Jewish and other people of non-Teutonic blood.
-
You're absolutely right, but it seems that any good intention can be perverted. Even Darwin's completely scientific belief, which is non-partisan to, and which has nothing to do with violence. It was later used to justify the extirpation of the Jewish and other people of non-Teutonic blood.
Too bad they didn't use science. Please, if you want to talk about this, make your own thread. This wasn't even supposed to be a discussion thread; it's a repository for Apostates of Islam articles. What you are doing is essentially spamming all across all the threads and it's getting increasingly wasteful to our time and patience.
-
You're absolutely right, but it seems that any good intention can be perverted. Even Darwin's completely scientific belief, which is non-partisan to, and which has nothing to do with violence. It was later used to justify the extirpation of the Jewish and other people of non-Teutonic blood.
Too bad they didn't use science. Please, if you want to talk about this, make your own thread. This wasn't even supposed to be a discussion thread; it's a repository for Apostates of Islam articles. What you are doing is essentially spamming all across all the threads and it's getting increasingly wasteful to our time and patience.
Science was used, it just happened to be pseudoscience. Anyways, if it's that wasteful to your time and patience, then don't reply. Isn't that easier than being abrasive?
-
Science was used, it just happened to be pseudoscience.
"They did drive a car, it just happened to be a boat."
Anyways, if it's that wasteful to your time and patience, then don't reply. Isn't that easier than being abrasive?
No, get out of this thread. It's not the place.
-
Science was used, it just happened to be pseudoscience.
"They did drive a car, it just happened to be a boat."
Anyways, if it's that wasteful to your time and patience, then don't reply. Isn't that easier than being abrasive?
No, get out of this thread. It's not the place.
Well, because you've been such a dick. I don't think I am going to leave. I am sorry, ass. You can choose to not reply, and then I'll stop. It's up to you.
Pseudoscience isn't science (entirely, but it comes from science), but a thought was perversed. I made my point, but you think that atheism has a flawless track record. It won't for long, I am sure some moron will get people rallied behind some concept of it with fervor. It's already starting to take on an ugly form with all these organizations.
I thought atheists were stand alone types.
-
Redirect: http://theflatearthsociety.org/forums/posting.php?mode=reply&t=8975
-
A gas chamber has the explicit purpose to kill. It does nothing else.
Religion does many things, it creates order, or chaos. It can help, it can hurt.
The topic was Islam, not religion in general. The Qu'ran treats women as second class citizens, supports slavery, demands the death penalty for apostasy, etc.
Islam may have its redeeming points, but overall it's like a gas chamber that gives a free happy meal with every execution.
-
A gas chamber has the explicit purpose to kill. It does nothing else.
Religion does many things, it creates order, or chaos. It can help, it can hurt.
The topic was Islam, not religion in general. The Qu'ran treats women as second class citizens, supports slavery, demands the death penalty for apostasy, etc.
Islam may have its redeeming points, but overall it's like a gas chamber that gives a free happy meal with every execution.
Then that's the analogy that should be used!
A gas chamber with a happy meal.
-
It's my belief that atheists are the level headed ones. We don't go out and destroy people's homes, or kill other people themselves because someone doesn't agree with what we believe in.
Religious people are some of the most ignorant "fools" I have ever seen in my life, and the middle east is the basic proof of that.
The decidedly secularist Young Turks and Kemalists who threw out the muslim religion and founded modern Turkey, easily the most secular muslim country, are precisely the people who implemented the Armenian genocide. They did indeed destroy their homes and killed them in large numbers significantly more than their Ottoman predecessors.
I do not disagree with you that islam is a murderous religion, but it is murderous largely because of its atheistic qualities. Muslims do not believe in the existence of the Devil. Yes, they believe in jinn (angels), but it is far from the Christian understanding as they do not distinguish as much between good and bad jinn or between good and evil for that matter. And muslims do not believe in Hell as Christians understand it. The expansion of islam at the expense of Christian Orthodoxy was a boon to atheism.
-
The decidedly secularist Young Turks and Kemalists who threw out the muslim religion and founded modern Turkey, easily the most secular muslim country, are precisely the people who implemented the Armenian genocide. They did indeed destroy their homes and killed them in large numbers significantly more than their Ottoman predecessors.
Sorry, "secular Muslims"? Weren't we talking about atheists, moreover, the majority of us ("atheists are the most level headed ones" - my italics)?
The need to exercise reason and rationality supersede any theological opinion. In a universe where God existed, they would lead us to him.
-
Sorry, "secular Muslims"?
The need to exercise reason and rationality supersede any theological opinion. In a universe where God existed, they would lead us to him.
It is primarily your purist atheism (and possible lack of historical and philosophical knowledge) which are obstacles in your reasoning preventing you from understanding the connection between the two and atheism's debt to islam.
-
It is primarily your purist atheism...
My spidey senses are tingling... are you a YEC?
-
are you a YEC?
You'll have to spell that one out. I am not familiar with the term. However, after you mentioned it, I did a search and located the following website.
http://www.yecheadquarters.org/index.html
I had never heard of this website before, but it's a good one. There is a book which has appeared during the course of the past year with a similiar theme entitled 'Ascendancy of the Scientific Dictatorship.' A welcome but interesting trend as it makes one wonder whether these kind of serious minded protestants will some day enter some form of "catacombs." Protestantism is transforming into three major groups:
1) The main stream denominations which are dead and dying
2) the kind of protestants mentioned above which are a more serious minded minority
3) pentecostals
-
YEC = Young Earth Creationist
Requirements: 1) Believe glue is 1000 years older than the Universe
2) Pretend the light speed barrier doesn't exist
3) Check into an asylum
-
YEC = Young Earth Creationist
Got it. Yes, of course.
Requirements: 1) Believe glue is 1000 years older than the Universe
You lost me on that one. If that is a requirement, then I do not qualify.
the light speed barrier doesn't exist
True enough, but I am interested in exactly who did you catch asserting this (since an average creationist is not quite that hard core)?
-
Requirements: 1) Believe glue is 1000 years older than the Universe
You lost me on that one. If that is a requirement, then I do not qualify.
It means that most YECs think that the earth was created approximately 6,000 years ago, while the Sumerians invented glue at least a thousand years before that.
-
It is primarily your purist atheism...
My spidey senses are tingling... are you a YEC?
I think you already knew that and were avoiding the similarities which I pointed out between atheism and islam.
By the way, I follow the Septuagint which places us at 7515 years since the Creation of the World and the deluge of Noah in the year 3213 Before Christ. This definitely contradicts your millions, but unlike the jews' and protestants' fıgures which are both close to 6000 years, the Septuagint adequately accounts for the antiquity of Egyptian civilization as demonstrated in the Chronicon of Eusebius which harmonizes Hebrew and Egyptian history and like all the Church Fathers follows the Septuagint chronology.
-
That's good that you keep in mind the rationality of the Egyptian civilisation. Otherwise we would think you're a nutter.
-
Otherwise we would think you're a nutter.
We don't think that anyway? Or are we being sarcastic?
-
Requirements: 1) Believe glue is 1000 years older than the Universe
You lost me on that one. If that is a requirement, then I do not qualify.
It means that most YECs think that the earth was created approximately 6,000 years ago, while the Sumerians invented glue at least a thousand years before that.
Cool. I'll have to remember that one.
-
Otherwise we would think you're a nutter.
We don't think that anyway? Or are we being sarcastic?
We do not use sarcasm.
-
Help stop Terrorist Attacks!
Dear concerned non-Muslim,
Your effort can help stop the spread of Islam, and will thus reduce the chances of a terrorist attack on your home country, hometown or even your own house!
To stop Islamic terrorism, Islam itself must be stopped and this can be done by creating awareness about its truth, which is that Islam is a violent, irrational, intolerant and dangerous cult that must be stopped.
Here are some things you can do to help stop Islam.
They are listed in the order of ease:
Inform your friends, family, colleagues and area politicians/congressmen of this site. Spreading awareness about the truth of Islam will help to stop the spread of this disease. Tell them about Islam and email this website’s URL to them.
Take part in discussions (online or real life) with Muslims. If you know a newly converted Muslim, tell them of this site, and ask them questions about Islam so it makes them feel uncomfortable. Do not hesitate to do this. Remember that Islam is already teaching them to hate you and support the terrorists.
$pend your money against Islam.
ARTICLES
Mohammad The Pedophile - Parvin Darabi
Breaking the manacles of Islam
Buy books that expose the truth of Islam, and donate them to public libraries, or if you are a student, donate them to your college library.
If you cannot donate the books, fill-out book requests, and talk to your Librarians requesting them to include one or more of these books in the library.
List of Islam-exposing books.
Support Humanist and Anti-Islamic organizations. An example of a humanist organization is Humanists.net, which provides free webhosting for many other humanist websites besides this one.
American Humanist Association
FaithFreedomInternational (Anti-Islamic website by former Muslims with extensive research on Islam)
Support Human Rights in other countries. According to Imam Khomeini himself, the Supreme Islamic leader of Islam, ‘Those Who Spread Slogans of Reform, Liberty, Democracy, and Human Rights Are Fighting Islam’.
Spend your money against Islam today
and prevent Terrorist Attacks tomorrow!
http://terrorizethis.org/2007/02/18/apostates-of-islamcom-what-do-you-think/
These people are fucked up..
-
Describe why you feel that way. What's wrong with them? Considering their involvement with Islam, don't you think they don't know what they're talking about?
-
Your effort can help stop the spread of Islam, and will thus reduce the chances of a terrorist attack on your home country, hometown or even your own house!
To stop Islamic terrorism, Islam itself must be stopped and this can be done by creating awareness about its truth, which is that Islam is a violent, irrational, intolerant and dangerous cult that must be stopped.
Here are some things you can do to help stop Islam.
They are listed in the order of ease:
Demonizing the Muslim religion...
This article is bullshit. Islam is not a "violent, irrational, intolerant and dangerous cult that must be stopped". Doesn't take much to figure that one out.
And what the fuck?:
$pend your money against Islam.
Sad that people seem to like this kind of crap..
For some real News:
http://terrorizethis.org
-
Got this great PM from R:FOM - not really sure what it was specifically that motivated it, perhaps this topic. Anyway thought I would share it, as it is a great example of how peaceful and tolerant some Muslims are;
YOUR FUCKING STUPID..Islam does not teach that it is ok to ape people..The prophet was not a gangster you dumb shit....Islam allows people to think for them selves....we are not tought to ? our religion.....we have to ? it that way we can earn more abouti t and other religions....you FUCKING DUMB SHIT.....YOU WERE A SUNNI MOST LIKLY AND SUNNIS ARE DUMB SHITS TO........FOR GODSAKES YOU BELIVE THE EARTH IS FUCKING FLAT......WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU......GO TO FUCKING HELL SHIT HEAD.....
He may be shocked to know that I've never been a Muslim, but that those articles that I posted, were written by the person whose name it says they were written by. Shocking as it may seem, I am actually not Salman Rushdie.
"YOU WERE A SUNNI MOST LIKLY[sic} AND SUNNIS ARE DUMB SHITS TO[sic]"
What F:ROM has expressed is not a radical view that a few extremist Muslims believe, he's expressing a commonly held view. Islam is a religion that does not tolerate anything outside of Islam. A great example is Ayatollah al-Sistani - who is one of the most "moderate" and left wing Islamic leaders in Iraq. He also believes that homosexual people, who do nothing that harms him in anyway, should be "killed in the worst, most severe way of killing." source (http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid28049.asp)
Like all religion, Islam is not a rational belief. Any good it offers can be gained without religion, and it also offers division and intolerance. The Left, and I am very left, try to pretend that it's only a few radicals that bring Islam down, but it's not. It's the whole religion. From America, to Europe, to Asia to the Middle East, the only impacts we see religion having are retarding the quest for knowledge, oppressing women and causing death, violence and war.
-
ISLAM is the translated Arabic word for PEACE. It is Gods' definition of Peace. What is your definition of PEACE? Write books about it, I will read every word.
-
The golden rule has a dark side. If you like pain and abuse, you will cause pain and abuse.
-
I view the basic Tenets of Islam as, well, Mein Kampf from Antiquity. I have read the Quran cover to cover, several times, versions, and I see an overall theme of "We are right. Believe or be liquidated." I'd rather be liquidated.
-
The golden rule has a dark side. If you like pain and abuse, you will cause pain and abuse.
That is a good point. However, I think the point of the "golden rule" is to treat others with respect and you will get respect back. I don't think anyone wants to live in a world where everyone steals each others shit and kills each other. That's the point of the golden rule; not necessarily to behave how you wish others to behave to you in that sense, but to behave in an appropriate and respectful manner in which everyone can benefit.
-
It is Gods' definition of Peace.
What evidence do you have that this statement is true?
What is your definition of PEACE? Write books about it, I will read every word.
I would define "peace" as an absence of violence. A peaceful world is one where people live in harmony with one another. I do not see war, holy or otherwise, as having any support of peace. If Muslims really were peaceful, they would not use physical violence at all - either in conflict or in response to oppression against them. Sure groups like the Palestinians have had a rough deal, but that doesn't justify their use of violence and it certainly doesn't support a claim that Islam is a religion of peace. If Islam really taught peace then we would hear a great outcry from Islam against every instances of violence that is committed in the name of their religion. Clearly that outcry comes only from a very small minority.
-
You can't handle peace
-
You can't handle peace
Wow. I think you lose.
-
...................
-
<snip>
I love you....
I think that all religions are false and it's a shame they can't be abolished - but I don't believe in discriminating against a person because I think they are idiotic. You just have to accept that people have different beliefs.
Preachers, extremeists and all the people who try to force their beliefs upon other people are wrong, and should not be allowed to speak. That is my opinion. Look at America. Evangelists are so anti-creationism, that they have banned it in schools in some states. Homosexuals are excluded and subject to abuse.
In other countries, people are blowing themselves up - either because they are being occupied (Iraq) or they are making a religious statement.
But let me just let you consider this: Have you noticed how Christianity takes the piss out of it all the time, and does not complain? And other religions I am sure have jokes made about it. But when some dude draws some pictures of Mohammed (Allah preserve him) there are riots, censures and distructive behaviour? Muslims take themselves so seriously it's almost as scary as having evangelists in the white house.
-
There is some truth in that last line...... If you don't like it, say it, but don't fucking kill people over it.
-
A good philosophy, but unfortunately religion is not based on any rational ideals, and if people are to run their lives based on irrational beliefs, how can we expect them to carry out rational actions? All people who tolerate the notion of irrational beliefs, or defend irrational beliefs are surely culpable for the irrational actions that occur in the name of those irrational beliefs.
-
There is some truth in that last line...... If you don't like it, say it, but don't fucking kill people over it.
my last line?
If so, then I'm glad you agree. I know plenty of muslims who were unhappy about those drawings - even I thought they went a bit far, but that's only cause people don't generally take the piss out of islam I guess - but they didn't run to the nearest danish embassy and destory it.
-
We never said they couldn't. We just said that no atheist performs evil in the name of atheism.
Technically Stalin killed lots of people for having a religion. Wouldn't this be considered killing in the name of Atheism?
-
Only if you've never studied 20th Century Russian History.
I would say that Stalin killed people in the name of Communism, not atheism. I would also say that atheists oppose religion because it is a dogmatic and unfounded belief. I would also say that the communism practiced by Stalin was also a dogmatic and unfounded belief, so for the reasons atheists oppose religion, I am sure that most would also oppose Stalinism.
-
If so, then I'm glad you agree. I know plenty of muslims who were unhappy about those drawings - even I thought they went a bit far
The two most offensive drawings were never published in Denmark. They were of "mysterious origin." A Muslim militant created them to fuel pandemonium.
-
Only if you've never studied 20th Century Russian History.
I would say that Stalin killed people in the name of Communism, not atheism. I would also say that atheists oppose religion because it is a dogmatic and unfounded belief. I would also say that the communism practiced by Stalin was also a dogmatic and unfounded belief, so for the reasons atheists oppose religion, I am sure that most would also oppose Stalinism.
Hm Communism, in theory, is a nice concept. No inequality, and all that (I know there's a little more to it lol) but I agree, communism's bad in practice...Stalinism was very bad...
-
T.H. pointed this out: how on Earth can you have equality in a system with an omnipotent state?
-
I don't really think that communism is even nice in theory. I think communism clearly leads to authoritarianism. If you are preventing people from having organised religion (and Karl Marx) and you're preventing people from owning property, you are going to have to have power over those people. Sure communism would be great if everybody just decided to follow it, without a need for enforcement, but not only is that not reality, science shows us that you would actually expect at least a small amount of dissent to any political system, no matter how perfect it is. One of the reasons capitalism works so well is because people who oppose it have no capital, so no power. Perhaps you could argue that the founding idea behind communism; that all people are equal - is a good one, but how can you follow that belief and enforce your form of government onto other people without some form of hypocrisy?
I think, of political systems, I'm probably strongest in favour of a strongly socially minded capitalist system; a government with high taxes, high social services, but also the rights to acquire capital.
-
communism; that
I IS GRAMMAR NAZI
-
u r wanker
-
I don't really think that communism is even nice in theory. I think communism clearly leads to authoritarianism. If you are preventing people from having organised religion (and Karl Marx) and you're preventing people from owning property, you are going to have to have power over those people. Sure communism would be great if everybody just decided to follow it, without a need for enforcement, but not only is that not reality, science shows us that you would actually expect at least a small amount of dissent to any political system, no matter how perfect it is. One of the reasons capitalism works so well is because people who oppose it have no capital, so no power. Perhaps you could argue that the founding idea behind communism; that all people are equal - is a good one, but how can you follow that belief and enforce your form of government onto other people without some form of hypocrisy?
I think, of political systems, I'm probably strongest in favour of a strongly socially minded capitalist system; a government with high taxes, high social services, but also the rights to acquire capital.
yeah, that's true, but then it would be nice if everyone went along with it...however, as you've pointed out, there's going to be hypocracy and it will lead to capitalism.
Too expensive to try it out now anyway. :P
-
Fuck the NWO
-
I actually missed one of beast's posts by accident in the beginning, my bad beast. The peadophile allegations have no proof whatsoever, the Hadith that give mention of our Prophet ( PBUH) was provided by a man that had no clue what he was talking about, and was very incoherent with his dates. Looking at other Hadiths provided by him, you can conclude using the dates mentioned that the supposed nine-year-old could have been 16 or even older.
Sorry for bringing it up so late, but I missed that post I guess...... And I KNOW it's not much of a rebuttal for the whole thing, but I just thought I'd point it out. The nine-year-old thing is a myth.