The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: Rayzor on October 05, 2021, 05:02:12 PM
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Brexit, Antivaxxers, Trumpism, Climate change denial, Qanon what do they all have in common?
Stephen Fry makes some good points, but misses the impact of self-reinforcing algorithms that prioritize engagement on Facebook and Youtube.
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Mostly related.
tldr;
Those things that Facebook swears up and down that it doesn't do that anybody with a brain in their head knows damn well that they do, they do in fact do it.
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And you can't blame it all on social media. The msm creates a lot of this bullshit for the clicks. They've helped make medicine political. I mean, people call someone who is vaccinated against every other disease "antivaxx" if they're worried about mrna vaccines, who caused that to happen?
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Polarization happens when news media needs money and ad revenue is plentiful.
When attention is they cornerstone to success, you make the grabbiest headline you can. The content is irrelevant.
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And you can't blame it all on social media. The msm creates a lot of this bullshit for the clicks. They've helped make medicine political. I mean, people call someone who is vaccinated against every other disease "antivaxx" if they're worried about mrna vaccines, who caused that to happen?
The vaccine skepticism is different. It's part of the liberals diabolical plan to liquidate conservatives.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/breitbart-conservatives-john-nolte-vaccine/620189/
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And you can't blame it all on social media. The msm creates a lot of this bullshit for the clicks. They've helped make medicine political. I mean, people call someone who is vaccinated against every other disease "antivaxx" if they're worried about mrna vaccines, who caused that to happen?
I think msm takes many liberties for profit. One of the liberties probably they argue away here is the part of the definition that no one really ever thinks of:
Definition of anti-vaxxer
: a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination
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I think we also need to recognize that its not just MSM, its all media. From the New York Times down to whatever website Tom digs up his trash from.
The difference is that if the NYTs makes a mistake/prints a falsehood, the public attacks them.
If www.TheTruthIsNews.org prints something false, no one cares.
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Stephen Fry should be made Emperor of the earth.
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And you can't blame it all on social media. The msm creates a lot of this bullshit for the clicks. They've helped make medicine political. I mean, people call someone who is vaccinated against every other disease "antivaxx" if they're worried about mrna vaccines, who caused that to happen?
I think msm takes many liberties for profit. One of the liberties probably they argue away here is the part of the definition that no one really ever thinks of:
Definition of anti-vaxxer
: a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination
But opposing regulations is different to opposing a vaccine
You can have an opinion on regulations, but you don't get to have an opinion on established facts (eg the effectiveness and safety of a vaccine).
Same with climate change. You can have an opinion on how to move forward to combat the issue (eg nuclear, renewable etc) but you don't get to have an opinion on if in fact it is happening at all.
Problem is lots of people seem to lack the ability to think critically. And even those that do are too 'proud' to admit they were wrong. Trump got vaccinated. He helped facilitate fast tracking hundreds of millions of doses available for the entire country to have. Yet.... He is awfully silent on their effectiveness and even as thousands of people every week who would otherwise vote for him die from a preventable disease (now), he still won't spruik them in an effort to save the people who love him
Too much self pride because in his mind to admit they work is being 'owned' by the libs. And the only way to 'own the libs' is to get sick or even die, refusing to take a vaccine the libs have no issue getting
Shit logic is shit
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And you can't blame it all on social media. The msm creates a lot of this bullshit for the clicks. They've helped make medicine political. I mean, people call someone who is vaccinated against every other disease "antivaxx" if they're worried about mrna vaccines, who caused that to happen?
I think msm takes many liberties for profit. One of the liberties probably they argue away here is the part of the definition that no one really ever thinks of:
Definition of anti-vaxxer
: a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination
But opposing regulations is different to opposing a vaccine
You can have an opinion on regulations, but you don't get to have an opinion on established facts (eg the effectiveness and safety of a vaccine).
Same with climate change. You can have an opinion on how to move forward to combat the issue (eg nuclear, renewable etc) but you don't get to have an opinion on if in fact it is happening at all.
Problem is lots of people seem to lack the ability to think critically. And even those that do are too 'proud' to admit they were wrong. Trump got vaccinated. He helped facilitate fast tracking hundreds of millions of doses available for the entire country to have. Yet.... He is awfully silent on their effectiveness and even as thousands of people every week who would otherwise vote for him die from a preventable disease (now), he still won't spruik them in an effort to save the people who love him
Too much self pride because in his mind to admit they work is being 'owned' by the libs. And the only way to 'own the libs' is to get sick or even die, refusing to take a vaccine the libs have no issue getting
Shit logic is shit
Oh no, Trump tried. He got booed, remember?
He's too afraid to be booed so he doesn't do it anymore.
Its not pride, its fear, that keeps him from promoting it.
Also: the issue is that what we see as facts, others see as lies. And you can't prove it. Like proving the earth revolves around the sun. You can go on about star movements, math, etc... But if the person you're explaining it to doesn't understand or care, its pointless. They can make up any story to fit the narrative.
"Your math is wrong."
"Your mad."
"Your telescope is rigged."
Etc...
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And you can't blame it all on social media. The msm creates a lot of this bullshit for the clicks. They've helped make medicine political. I mean, people call someone who is vaccinated against every other disease "antivaxx" if they're worried about mrna vaccines, who caused that to happen?
I think msm takes many liberties for profit. One of the liberties probably they argue away here is the part of the definition that no one really ever thinks of:
Definition of anti-vaxxer
: a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination
I wonder how long "regulations mandating vaccination" has been part of the definition of anti-vaxxer. It doesn't even make sense to combine anti vaccine with anti govt mandates.
I looked it up and found this https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/17/viral-image/no-merriam-webster-didnt-change-definition-anti-va/ The term "antivaxxer" was added in 2018. Still doesn't make sense to combine the meanings. I am not anti vaccine, but I am against some of the legislation being proposed in the US. Defining it this way means that anyone who questions the govt can be labeled antivaxx, and I imagine that is the intent. There's a certain strain of online politics that thrives on insulting people who don't toe the party line.
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I can sort of see why they'd include that as the definition. Antivaxxers have learned a lot of lessons from climate deniers. I see a lot of the same strategies. I believe there are good faith arguments against broad vaccine mandates though.
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And you can't blame it all on social media. The msm creates a lot of this bullshit for the clicks. They've helped make medicine political. I mean, people call someone who is vaccinated against every other disease "antivaxx" if they're worried about mrna vaccines, who caused that to happen?
I think msm takes many liberties for profit. One of the liberties probably they argue away here is the part of the definition that no one really ever thinks of:
Definition of anti-vaxxer
: a person who opposes the use of vaccines or regulations mandating vaccination
I wonder how long "regulations mandating vaccination" has been part of the definition of anti-vaxxer. It doesn't even make sense to combine anti vaccine with anti govt mandates.
I thought the same thing too as I had never heard (or thought) of that being a part of the definition. Seems very timely.
I looked it up and found this https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/may/17/viral-image/no-merriam-webster-didnt-change-definition-anti-va/ The term "antivaxxer" was added in 2018. Still doesn't make sense to combine the meanings. I am not anti vaccine, but I am against some of the legislation being proposed in the US. Defining it this way means that anyone who questions the govt can be labeled antivaxx, and I imagine that is the intent. There's a certain strain of online politics that thrives on insulting people who don't toe the party line.
It's such a complicated mess I don't even know where to begin. I get vaxx hesitancy from a real medical perspective - Emphasis on real. I don't get anti-mask/anti-vaxx from a "My Freedoms" standpoint. When you get too many of the "My Freedoms" jackholes, you get legislation - When you get legislation you get more "My Freedoms" jackholes.
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Hypothetical scenario....
Imaging what would happen if you invented technology that provided everyone on the planet easy access to the sum total of human knowledge, including history, science, medicine, politics, philosophy and any craft or skill you can imagine....
But, we haven't educated the majority of people as to how to understand and interpret all this readily accessible knowledge, as a consequence people misunderstand basic stuff and misinterpret facts, see connections where none exist.
What do you think will happen?
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I don't think it's the inability to understand and interpret all this knowledge causing the belief in conspiracy. I think it is manipulation. Someone (or some organization) can manufacture a narrative. If you question the narrative you will be accused of being a conspiracy theorist. By the time some of these actual conspiracies have unraveled it is too late. Now we have the impression that there are a bunch of wacko conspiracy theorists.
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Hypothetical scenario....
Imaging what would happen if you invented technology that provided everyone on the planet easy access to the sum total of human knowledge, including history, science, medicine, politics, philosophy and any craft or skill you can imagine....
But, we haven't educated the majority of people as to how to understand and interpret all this readily accessible knowledge, as a consequence people misunderstand basic stuff and misinterpret facts, see connections where none exist.
What do you think will happen?
That's exactly where we are. ::)
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I don't think it's the inability to understand and interpret all this knowledge causing the belief in conspiracy. I think it is manipulation. Someone (or some organization) can manufacture a narrative. If you question the narrative you will be accused of being a conspiracy theorist. By the time some of these actual conspiracies have unraveled it is too late. Now we have the impression that there are a bunch of wacko conspiracy theorists.
That's a valid point, but ultimately it's the inability of many people to see through the manufactured narrative that leads to problems.
Censorship is not the answer, which is the way we are currently heading, education might be the answer, but that takes generations and that might be too long.
The internet has opened pandoras box and we may never be able to close it.
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I don't think it's the inability to understand and interpret all this knowledge causing the belief in conspiracy. I think it is manipulation. Someone (or some organization) can manufacture a narrative. If you question the narrative you will be accused of being a conspiracy theorist. By the time some of these actual conspiracies have unraveled it is too late. Now we have the impression that there are a bunch of wacko conspiracy theorists.
That's a valid point, but ultimately it's the inability of many people to see through the manufactured narrative that leads to problems.
Censorship is not the answer, which is the way we are currently heading, education might be the answer, but that takes generations and that might be too long.
The internet has opened pandoras box and we may never be able to close it.
When people are told to 'do your own reasearch', it's not logging on to Facebook which is geared to only confirm your biases. Or listening to some podcast from some moron who doesn't know what the fuck he's on about (looking at you Joe Rogan). Or Googling a leading question which might lead you to the likes of Dr Oz or Mercola or that idiot from 'natural news' lol All crackpot pseudo-science bullshit artists trying to sell you shit with fear.
I do find using 'Google scholar' to be much better at linking to actual research done by career professionals where you can easily find data from collations of dozens of experiments and research. From people who know their shit.
But any time you 'do your own research', you should drop whatever biases or opinions you have and start from a blank slate. If your biased, you will only zero in on anything that confirms it and you won't learn anything
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I don't think it's the inability to understand and interpret all this knowledge causing the belief in conspiracy. I think it is manipulation. Someone (or some organization) can manufacture a narrative. If you question the narrative you will be accused of being a conspiracy theorist. By the time some of these actual conspiracies have unraveled it is too late. Now we have the impression that there are a bunch of wacko conspiracy theorists.
That's a valid point, but ultimately it's the inability of many people to see through the manufactured narrative that leads to problems.
Censorship is not the answer, which is the way we are currently heading, education might be the answer, but that takes generations and that might be too long.
The internet has opened pandoras box and we may never be able to close it.
The internet plus the competition for clicks really is making us all fucking insane. I can't help blaming the mainstream media for a lot of this. I think about this sort of thing a lot. Like, if you don't know much about a certain topic, it's easy to believe whatever the media says about it, but if you happen to know a lot about the topic the lies stand out. I think, well they might not be lying, it could be a mistake. Then I see them all repeat the lie, ignore corrections, and use other msm as the source. I wonder am I a conspiracy theorist or are they manufacturing the narrative. It is much more difficult to see the manufacturing if the narrative conforms to the biases we already hold.
Censorship is definitely not the answer. I don't know what the laws around the media are in your country, and I don't want the media censored, but I think going back to the way media used to be regulated (in the US) could help a lot. They need to be broken up and one mega corporation shouldn't be allowed to own huge chunks of the media. I think the tech giants should be included in that. I don't think democracy can survive if information and speech are controlled by a handful of wealthy corporations.
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In a way, this is nothing new, just perhaps exacerbated by the internet's immediate and vast access to "info" and methods of monetization coupled with a 24 hour news cycle (Thx Ted Turner...)
Yellow Journalism:
W. Joseph Campbell describes yellow press newspapers as having daily multi-column front-page headlines covering a variety of topics, such as sports and scandal, using bold layouts (with large illustrations and perhaps color), heavy reliance on unnamed sources, and unabashed self-promotion. The term was extensively used to describe certain major New York City newspapers around 1900 as they battled for circulation.[4] One aspect of yellow journalism was a surge in sensationalized crime reporting to boost sales and excite public opinion.[5]
Frank Luther Mott identifies yellow journalism based on five characteristics:[6]
- scare headlines in huge print, often of minor news
- lavish use of pictures, or imaginary drawings
- use of faked interviews, misleading headlines, pseudoscience, and a parade of false learning from so-called experts
- emphasis on full-color Sunday supplements, usually with comic strips
- dramatic sympathy with the "underdog" against the system.
It all sounds prescient in 2021.
I mean Hearst got us into the Spanish-American war back at the turn of the last century purely by sensationalizing events through his newspapers. Literally, we went to war because of the media.
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- lavish use of pictures, or imaginary drawings
MEMES!
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Precisely!
My personal favorite Tucker Carlson reference: use of faked interviews, misleading headlines, pseudoscience, and a parade of false learning from so-called experts
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Tucker Carlson is too easy.
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He's just one example. It pretty much applies to all of the opinion talking heads, left, right, and center.
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Ok, I'm not Catholic, but the Pope of all people gets it better than most...
In the name of God, I ask the technology giants to stop exploiting human weakness, people’s vulnerability, for the sake of profits without caring about the spread of hate speech, grooming, fake news, conspiracy theories, and political manipulation.
In the name of God, I ask the telecommunications giants to ease access to educational material and connectivity for teachers via the internet so that poor children can be educated even under quarantine.
In the name of God, I ask the media to stop the logic of post-truth, disinformation, defamation, slander and the unhealthy attraction to dirt and scandal, and to contribute to human fraternity and empathy with those who are most deeply damaged.
https://techpolicy.press/pope-calls-for-tech-and-media-reforms/
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Ok, I'm not Catholic, but the Pope of all people gets it better than most...
In the name of God, I ask the technology giants to stop exploiting human weakness, people’s vulnerability, for the sake of profits without caring about the spread of hate speech, grooming, fake news, conspiracy theories, and political manipulation.
In the name of God, I ask the telecommunications giants to ease access to educational material and connectivity for teachers via the internet so that poor children can be educated even under quarantine.
In the name of God, I ask the media to stop the logic of post-truth, disinformation, defamation, slander and the unhealthy attraction to dirt and scandal, and to contribute to human fraternity and empathy with those who are most deeply damaged.
https://techpolicy.press/pope-calls-for-tech-and-media-reforms/
The current pope is an amazing guy. While I don't align with everything he says or does, his heart is in the right place and he acts more like a Christian than most christians.
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The current pope is an amazing guy. While I don't align with everything he says or does, his heart is in the right place and he acts more like a Christian than most christians.
Yeah, and he is utterly detested in the Vatican for it.
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The current pope is an amazing guy. While I don't align with everything he says or does, his heart is in the right place and he acts more like a Christian than most christians.
Yeah, and he is utterly detested in the Vatican for it.
The Vatican would rather a greedy homophobic hate monger who would dig up the remains of his predecessor and put the rotting corpse on trial in a court. The entire catholic institution is disgusting.
Some even regard that Benedict guy before Francis to be 'the last true Pope'.... Regressive arsehole's who can't stand the idea of progressive values.
To quote John Paul I
this morning, I flushed my toilet with a solid gold lever edged with diamonds and at this very moment, bishops and cardinals are using a bathroom on the second floor of the papal palace which trappings, I am told, would draw more than fifty million dollars at auction . . . Believe me, one day, we who live in opulence, while so many are dying because they have nothing, will have to answer to Jesus as to why we have not carried out His instruction, "Love thy neighbor as thyself.' We, the clergy of the Church together with our congregations, who substitute gold and pomp and ceremony in place of Christ's instruction, who judge our masquerade of singing His praises to be more precious than human life, will have the most to explain."
Pope's... The successor to Jesus. Yet, did Jesus walk around with a sceptor worth a mint? A throne? Nice silk robes? A fancy crown? The Pope's are a joke
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Interesting vid from Wired regarding "How Online Conspiracy Groups Compare to Cults".
The Sociologist teases out 4 main elements of a cult:
- A transcendent belief system
- Systems of control
- Systems of influence
- A charismatic leader
Nothing really new here, just an interesting summarization and comparison.
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Conspiracy is not a theory, theory is something that is not a fact, but it is indeed a fact that the elites and government is lying to us. Whenever you have half truth or misleading information to protect the real objective then it becomes a conspiracy. 9/11 was an obvious conspiracy that has been proven. If you listen to the major news from other countries they openly say that 9/11 was an inside job. Used to just Alex Jones and other non conventional journalists but now they say this on Russian new stations publicly. And there are many many so called conspiracies. Every government of every nation have conspiracies. Every county is hiding information and giving us fake news. Covid is a conspiracy mainly because its not a virus.
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Conspiracy is not a theory, theory is something that is not a fact, but it is indeed a fact that the elites and government is lying to us. Whenever you have half truth or misleading information to protect the real objective then it becomes a conspiracy. 9/11 was an obvious conspiracy that has been proven.
Proven? How so?
If you listen to the major news from other countries they openly say that 9/11 was an inside job. Used to just Alex Jones and other non conventional journalists but now they say this on Russian new stations publicly.
Is Alex Jones a journalist? You trust Russian state sponsored news?
And there are many many so called conspiracies. Every government of every nation have conspiracies. Every county is hiding information and giving us fake news. Covid is a conspiracy mainly because its not a virus.
What's your evidence that it's not a virus? Is this coming from one of your "visions"?
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No, don't shit up every thread again.
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https://www.axios.com/soros-hoffman-disinformation-tara-mcgowan-b1e7cb89-a4f7-4281-8e0a-3877fe8a3944.html
A new public benefit corporation backed by billionaires Reid Hoffman, George Soros, and others is launching Tuesday to fund new media companies and efforts that tackle disinformation.
Why it matters: Good Information Inc. aims to fund and scale businesses that cut through echo chambers with fact-based information. As part of its mission, it plans to invest in local news companies.
The group will be led by Tara McGowan, a former Democratic strategist who previously ran a progressive non-profit called ACRONYM.
Having a disinfo corporation funded by George Soros won't cause any conspiracy theories at all, imo!
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https://www.axios.com/soros-hoffman-disinformation-tara-mcgowan-b1e7cb89-a4f7-4281-8e0a-3877fe8a3944.html
A new public benefit corporation backed by billionaires Reid Hoffman, George Soros, and others is launching Tuesday to fund new media companies and efforts that tackle disinformation.
Why it matters: Good Information Inc. aims to fund and scale businesses that cut through echo chambers with fact-based information. As part of its mission, it plans to invest in local news companies.
The group will be led by Tara McGowan, a former Democratic strategist who previously ran a progressive non-profit called ACRONYM.
Having a disinfo corporation funded by George Soros won't cause any conspiracy theories at all, imo!
God help me, now I'm looking for the ACRONYM for ACRONYM....... I think I just got trapped in an infinite loop....
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https://www.foxnews.com/media/reid-hoffman-george-soros-bankroll-media-company-disinformation
Meanwhile, the new company that claims it intends to prevent disinformation is already the owner of a company known for its bogus news. As part of the deal, Good Information Inc. will acquire the controversial Courier Newsroom, according to Axios.
Last year, Facebook was forced to announce a new policy "differentiating a straight news outlet from a political persuasion operation" to prevent operations from driving one-sided messaging and provide transparency about who funds the operation.
At the time, Axios' Sara Fischer, who broke the news, said, "The biggest and most sophisticated example of this type of website is Courier Newsroom."
Let the games begin!
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https://www.foxnews.com/media/reid-hoffman-george-soros-bankroll-media-company-disinformation
Meanwhile, the new company that claims it intends to prevent disinformation is already the owner of a company known for its bogus news. As part of the deal, Good Information Inc. will acquire the controversial Courier Newsroom, according to Axios.
Last year, Facebook was forced to announce a new policy "differentiating a straight news outlet from a political persuasion operation" to prevent operations from driving one-sided messaging and provide transparency about who funds the operation.
At the time, Axios' Sara Fischer, who broke the news, said, "The biggest and most sophisticated example of this type of website is Courier Newsroom."
Let the games begin!
In fairness, what better way to fix disinformation then at a source?
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https://www.foxnews.com/media/reid-hoffman-george-soros-bankroll-media-company-disinformation
Meanwhile, the new company that claims it intends to prevent disinformation is already the owner of a company known for its bogus news. As part of the deal, Good Information Inc. will acquire the controversial Courier Newsroom, according to Axios.
Last year, Facebook was forced to announce a new policy "differentiating a straight news outlet from a political persuasion operation" to prevent operations from driving one-sided messaging and provide transparency about who funds the operation.
At the time, Axios' Sara Fischer, who broke the news, said, "The biggest and most sophisticated example of this type of website is Courier Newsroom."
Let the games begin!
In fairness, what better way to fix disinformation then at a source?
The ideal way would probably be to establish credibility before bringing in a known source of bad information.
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I don't think the media on the left care about credibility anymore. They will publish lies, and then pretend there isn't video proving they're lying. For instance, The Daily Beast have reported that Ted Cruz is defending the Nazi salute, the video shows him saying that the parents did the Nazi salute because they were suggesting the school board are Nazis. Followers of this kind of media also don't care that it's a lie. This whole atmosphere of distrust only creates more conspiracy feelings.
It was probably better (for our mental health, and belief in institutions) before everyone carried a camera, and before everyone could publish on the internet. The media has been slow to adjust to the new normal.
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Birth of a conspiracy theory https://twitter.com/holmes_reports/status/1454094826824212485?s=20
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Hmm... it appears that modern racist attire doesn't fare well in the rain.
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The Lincoln Project is taking credit for the Nazis. I wonder if they would have if the internet hadn't figured out who some of the people in the picture are. https://www.mediaite.com/politics/the-lincoln-project-claims-credit-for-tiki-torch-nazi-stunt-at-youngkin-campaign-bus/
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The Lincoln Project is taking credit for the Nazis. I wonder if they would have if the internet hadn't figured out who some of the people in the picture are. https://www.mediaite.com/politics/the-lincoln-project-claims-credit-for-tiki-torch-nazi-stunt-at-youngkin-campaign-bus/
Oh, that’s disappointing. Had quite a lot of respect for being mostly republicans (or ex-republicans) making stand against hyper partisan bullshit and disinformation.
Not so sure about the Ted Cruz thing though. Maybe they overplayed it, but Cruz saying that people make Nazi salutes to suggest others are fascists seems weird to me. Surely no one does that, do they? Although it’s possible Cruz thinks they do, I guess.
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Think about it, if you are Nazi saluting someone, then you think that person is a Nazi!
Also, the conspiracy theory brewing about the LP stunt is that the Lincoln Project is taking the fall because the Dems got caught.
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I could definitely see someone doing a Nazi salute to try to get their point across that they believe the person they are saluting is a Nazi. I've seen people sarcastically do a military salute quite a bit.
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This seems pretty well right on the money.
Brandolini's law, also known as the bullshit asymmetry principle, is an internet adage that emphasizes the difficulty of debunking false, facetious, or otherwise misleading information:[1] "The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is needed to produce it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law
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This seems pretty well right on the money.
Brandolini's law, also known as the bullshit asymmetry principle, is an internet adage that emphasizes the difficulty of debunking false, facetious, or otherwise misleading information:[1] "The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude larger than is needed to produce it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law)
bullshit ;D