The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth General => Topic started by: Silicon on February 26, 2017, 04:17:55 PM

Title: Moon rise
Post by: Silicon on February 26, 2017, 04:17:55 PM
I'd like to know if anyone has proof (picture or video timelapse) where the moon rises vertically to the overhead position.
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: Alpha2Omega on February 26, 2017, 06:55:32 PM
I'd like to know if anyone has proof (picture or video timelapse) where the moon rises vertically to the overhead position.

It won't. The moon would do that only if it's on the celestial equator and observed from the equator. But, since the moon doesn't stay on the celestial equator, it can't ever do that perfectly. In the 6+ hours that it takes to move from horizon to zenith, its declination would change by about 1°, so it wouldn't rise perfectly vertically to the zenith, or it could start rising perfectly vertically, but would drift slowly north or south and miss the zenith by about 1°, or you could split the difference. Maybe that's close enough for your purpose. 

Why?
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: Silicon on February 26, 2017, 08:18:46 PM
1° difference should be ok.  I'm working on a theory or an idea about what the moon really is. For the idea to be true, a near perfect vertical rise of the moon could not occur in reality.
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: Alpha2Omega on February 26, 2017, 09:00:28 PM
1° difference should be ok.  I'm working on a theory or an idea about what the moon really is. For the idea to be true, a near perfect vertical rise of the moon could not occur in reality.

That sounds interesting.

A good test for your model would be to determine the closest to a perfectly vertical rise (or set) it could explain, but closer to vertical would invalidate it. With that information, if it's sufficiently different from the extant model, it should be possible to predict a situation using the currently-accepted model that could disprove it. Then observe the moon under that situation to see which model works better.

Note that the currently-accepted model would predict a nearly-perfect vertical rise only twice in a sidereal month (~27.3 days) and only from near the equator. How much "slop" in location and timing could be tolerated, and the precision of the equipment necessary to provide unambiguous results, depends on how different the predictions of the models are.

Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: Sam Hill on February 26, 2017, 10:41:32 PM
1° difference should be ok.  I'm working on a theory or an idea about what the moon really is. For the idea to be true, a near perfect vertical rise of the moon could not occur in reality.
I applaud you for having an idea that is susceptible to being proven wrong!  That's good scientific method there!
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: JimmyTheCrab on February 27, 2017, 02:53:45 AM
I'd like to know if anyone has proof (picture or video timelapse) where the moon rises vertically to the overhead position.

(http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1077463/images/o-MOON-RISE-TIME-LAPSE-facebook.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: JimmyTheCrab on February 27, 2017, 02:55:18 AM
(http://www.universetoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/2013-07-22_supermoon_TL_LR_wm.jpg)
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: BillClinton on February 27, 2017, 08:15:54 AM
I'd like to know if anyone has proof (picture or video timelapse) where the moon rises vertically to the overhead position.
Bill Clinton here
The moon is a hologram to help us fool you to think that the world is round.
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: Silicon on February 27, 2017, 06:46:38 PM
1° difference should be ok.  I'm working on a theory or an idea about what the moon really is. For the idea to be true, a near perfect vertical rise of the moon could not occur in reality.

That sounds interesting.

A good test for your model would be to determine the closest to a perfectly vertical rise (or set) it could explain, but closer to vertical would invalidate it. With that information, if it's sufficiently different from the extant model, it should be possible to predict a situation using the currently-accepted model that could disprove it. Then observe the moon under that situation to see which model works better.

Note that the currently-accepted model would predict a nearly-perfect vertical rise only twice in a sidereal month (~27.3 days) and only from near the equator. How much "slop" in location and timing could be tolerated, and the precision of the equipment necessary to provide unambiguous results, depends on how different the predictions of the models are.

Thanks, this was helpful
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: Silicon on February 27, 2017, 06:48:53 PM


Not even close



Not even close
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: JimmyTheCrab on February 28, 2017, 04:00:37 AM


Not even close



Not even close
Yes, that's the point.   ::)
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: markjo on February 28, 2017, 10:15:07 AM
1° difference should be ok.  I'm working on a theory or an idea about what the moon really is. For the idea to be true, a near perfect vertical rise of the moon could not occur in reality.
Does anyone claim that a vertical moonrise does happen?  Given the geometry of the earth-moon system, I doubt that it is possible.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Earth-Moon.PNG)
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: Alpha2Omega on February 28, 2017, 01:24:59 PM
1° difference should be ok.  I'm working on a theory or an idea about what the moon really is. For the idea to be true, a near perfect vertical rise of the moon could not occur in reality.
Does anyone claim that a vertical moonrise does happen?  Given the geometry of the earth-moon system, I doubt that it is possible.

Earth-Moon Image (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Earth-Moon.PNG)

Actually, it is possible - at least very close - in certain circumstances.

When observed from a point on the earth's equator, the celestial equator goes from the horizon due east or west of the observer vertically to the zenith. Any celestial object on the celestial equator would appear to rise straight up from due east, pass directly overhead, and set vertically due west. If the moon were exactly on the celestial equator, it would do so. Since the moon is on an inclined orbit, it crosses, but doesn't stay on, the celestial equator twice each orbit. Because it doesn't stay on the equator, it wont track perfectly vertically. Over the 6-hour period from rise to culmination, it will drift about 1° in declination. It might be closer to vertical than that if you're about 1° north or south of the equator, depending on whether the moon is at its ascending or descending node; I need to think about that.

If you have stellarium or a similar planetarium program, set your location for latitude 0°, longitude E 59° 24' 55" and date & time 2017/03/13 15:02:48 (UTC), and center the view with east in the middle left to right. The moon should be just rising directly east, then go straight up and drift slightly to the south.
Title: Re: Moon rise
Post by: IonSpen on February 28, 2017, 03:29:15 PM
1° difference should be ok.  I'm working on a theory or an idea about what the moon really is. For the idea to be true, a near perfect vertical rise of the moon could not occur in reality.
Does anyone claim that a vertical moonrise does happen?  Given the geometry of the earth-moon system, I doubt that it is possible.

Earth-Moon Image (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Earth-Moon.PNG)

Actually, it is possible - at least very close - in certain circumstances.

When observed from a point on the earth's equator, the celestial equator goes from the horizon due east or west of the observer vertically to the zenith. Any celestial object on the celestial equator would appear to rise straight up from due east, pass directly overhead, and set vertically due west. If the moon were exactly on the celestial equator, it would do so. Since the moon is on an inclined orbit, it crosses, but doesn't stay on, the celestial equator twice each orbit. Because it doesn't stay on the equator, it wont track perfectly vertically. Over the 6-hour period from rise to culmination, it will drift about 1° in declination. It might be closer to vertical than that if you're about 1° north or south of the equator, depending on whether the moon is at its ascending or descending node; I need to think about that.

If you have stellarium or a similar planetarium program, set your location for latitude 0°, longitude E 59° 24' 55" and date & time 2017/03/13 15:02:48 (UTC), and center the view with east in the middle left to right. The moon should be just rising directly east, then go straight up and drift slightly to the south.
You're like, a moon genius or something..