The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: Overworld on December 23, 2016, 11:11:39 PM

Title: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 23, 2016, 11:11:39 PM
So if there is no direction in space then here's a simple way to prove it, the next time they go to space, if that's really even possible, take a carpenters level up there with them and when they go on a space walk they could take the level out with them and document what the bubble does, on film of course. With no gravity present it shouldn't react the same way it would normally, actually it shouldn't react at all, and they couldn't fake this in a pool.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Logick on December 23, 2016, 11:14:04 PM
if there is no direction in space
Sorry, I'm new here, but who has claimed there is "no direction in space?"
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 23, 2016, 11:22:37 PM
I asked the question in another post that what keeps the Earth from falling through space and someone replied that there is no up or down in space so where would it fall to.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 23, 2016, 11:26:02 PM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Woody on December 24, 2016, 12:14:15 AM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there?

Technically there is no such thing as zero-g.  I am not sure how the term zero-g originated, but it is describing things appearing to float in orbit.

What is happening when something is orbiting is it is falling.  Just falling fast enough and high enough above the Earth to continue falling.

When something passes the highest part of its orbit it begins to speed up.  It continues to do so until it reaches the low point.  Once it reaches the low point it begins to slow down as it travels back to the high point.

Imagine throwing a ball on Earth.  When you throw it it immediately begins to slow down and continues to do so until it reaches the high point.  Once it passes that point it begins to speed up as it heads towards the ground.

The more force I use the higher the ball will go.  Use enough force to get it high enough and traveling at or more than 7.8km/s it will continue to fall pass the Earth. Throw it with enough force that the ball reaches around 11 km/s it will escape the Earth's gravity and begin orbiting the Sun.

By escape Earth's gravity I mean it get's far enough away that the Earth's gravity will have less influence compared to the Sun's.  Earth's gravity will still have an influence along with the rest of the planets in our system.

As for your question about the level. yes it would behave differently since it is in free fall.  The bubble would be influenced more by the forces on it from being handled by the astronaut than anything else.

There are some problems with the experiment regarding the air bubble expanding and evaporation of the water, but we can just consider it a thought experiment and not consider the factors that would cause those issues.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 24, 2016, 12:16:37 AM
There is already plenty of evidence of 0g in space.
For example, this video here:


If this can be faked, then so can any experiment involving a spirit level.

It will still react to various things, like people pushing it.

Gravity is still present, there just isn't a normal force like from standing on something.

Earth is constantly "falling" through space, towards the sun. This results in us orbitting the sun due to our sideways motion.
The same applies to the moon orbitting Earth, and the ISS (and the water on it) orbitting Earth.

Gravity (alone) isn't what causes spirit levels to form the bubble or water to form a level.
It is caused by a solid object pressing against the water, and then the air pressing against the water and the water pressing back.

In orbit (not just in space), these normal forces dont exist as the water and air and everything else is falling together.

This also happens in free fall (note: need to overcome wind resistance if you are in free fall in Earth's atmosphere).
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Copper Knickers on December 24, 2016, 12:17:14 AM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?

Who says there's no gravity in space? There's plenty of gravity in space.

Astronauts, the ISS and satellites in general are 'weightless' because they are free-falling, that is they are yielding to gravity completely. An object only has weight when it resists gravity, not when it yields to it.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Logick on December 24, 2016, 12:21:15 AM
I asked the question in another post...
Could you maybe quote this post?

Technically there is no such thing as zero-g.  I am not sure how the term zero-g originated, but it is describing things appearing to float in orbit.
It's called microgravity.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: 29silhouette on December 24, 2016, 12:33:22 AM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon?
There is gravity.  The moon is in orbit.

Quote
It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there?
They are also in orbit.

Quote
I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc.
The object that is orbiting the larger object is falling toward that larger object.  It has enough lateral velocity though that it continuously misses.

Quote
So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there?
There is gravity.

Quote
Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?
No.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 24, 2016, 01:37:55 AM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?

There is gravity in space. The reason things float inside say the ISS is that the ISS is orbiting the earth, and thus is in a constant state of free fall. Essentially the ISS is constantly falling. Everything inside it is falling at the same rate, so there is no relative acceleration, and the impression that there is no gravity is given.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 24, 2016, 03:45:12 PM
if there is no direction in space
Sorry, I'm new here, but who has claimed there is "no direction in space?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   "There is no "up" in space. Earth has nowhere to fall to." this comment was made by "RocksEverywhere" on my post "I thought perpetual motion didn't exist"         
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 24, 2016, 04:04:31 PM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?
There is gravity in space. The reason things float inside say the ISS is that the ISS is orbiting the earth, and thus is in a constant state of free fall. Essentially the ISS is constantly falling. Everything inside it is falling at the same rate, so there is no relative acceleration, and the impression that there is no gravity is given.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay then what about when they are on space walks, they have to be tethered or they will just float out into space? Wouldn't the gravity hold them to the ISS? So gravity behaves differently in space? It seems gravity behaves like a selective tractor beam.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Space Cowgirl on December 24, 2016, 04:04:56 PM
If you could go out into space, far away from earth, which direction would be up?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: frenat on December 24, 2016, 04:39:24 PM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?
There is gravity in space. The reason things float inside say the ISS is that the ISS is orbiting the earth, and thus is in a constant state of free fall. Essentially the ISS is constantly falling. Everything inside it is falling at the same rate, so there is no relative acceleration, and the impression that there is no gravity is given.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay then what about when they are on space walks, they have to be tethered or they will just float out into space? Wouldn't the gravity hold them to the ISS? So gravity behaves differently in space? It seems gravity behaves like a selective tractor beam.
the gravitational attraction of the ISS to the astronauts is very small compared to the force they could push themselves away with.  Gravity does not behave differently.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 24, 2016, 04:47:46 PM
If you could go out into space, far away from earth, which direction would be up?
                                                                                                                                                            Well apparently there IS gravity in space so you could take a level with you, but then again from what I've heard so far gravity doesn't seem to behave in any kind of predictable manner so just take a wild guess. I mean according to the inverse square law the Earths gravity increases in strength the further out it goes but they don't mention if that is a constant or if it ever decreases, not to mention the sun's gravity which is holding all the planets in it's orbit, so apparently space is awash in gravity but it seems very selective in nature, it just holds everything perfectly in place except for astronauts on space walks, they have to be tethered. And why do meteors hit the Earth? Wouldn't Earth's gravity grab a hold of them and hold them in orbit? If it's because they have their own propulsion then what is propelling them? It's been said elsewhere in this forum that it's because there is no gravity in space so there is nothing to slow them, or anything else, down from their Big Bang inertia but we've just established that space is awash in gravity so...And apparently we are constantly falling toward the sun which means there is an up and down in space but nevertheless wherever you are on the "globe" everything is upright. And a if we are falling toward the sun eventually we have to slingshot around it, and again gravity seems to display selective, intelligent properties, instead of slinging us out into space it adjusts and holds us perfectly in place etc. etc.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 24, 2016, 04:57:13 PM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?
There is gravity in space. The reason things float inside say the ISS is that the ISS is orbiting the earth, and thus is in a constant state of free fall. Essentially the ISS is constantly falling. Everything inside it is falling at the same rate, so there is no relative acceleration, and the impression that there is no gravity is given.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay then what about when they are on space walks, they have to be tethered or they will just float out into space? Wouldn't the gravity hold them to the ISS? So gravity behaves differently in space? It seems gravity behaves like a selective tractor beam.
the gravitational attraction of the ISS to the astronauts is very small compared to the force they could push themselves away with.  Gravity does not behave differently.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay, what about Earth's gravitation? If it's holding the ISS in place why does it not hold the astronauts in place? And why would they push away? And if they did shouldn't the gravity pull them back to it? So it's strong enough to hold a massive structure in place but not an astronaut? And how does gravity decide exactly where to hold the ISS, the moon or satellites? Gravity seems to behave like an intelligent tractor beam.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: frenat on December 24, 2016, 05:08:51 PM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?
There is gravity in space. The reason things float inside say the ISS is that the ISS is orbiting the earth, and thus is in a constant state of free fall. Essentially the ISS is constantly falling. Everything inside it is falling at the same rate, so there is no relative acceleration, and the impression that there is no gravity is given.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay then what about when they are on space walks, they have to be tethered or they will just float out into space? Wouldn't the gravity hold them to the ISS? So gravity behaves differently in space? It seems gravity behaves like a selective tractor beam.
the gravitational attraction of the ISS to the astronauts is very small compared to the force they could push themselves away with.  Gravity does not behave differently.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay, what about Earth's gravitation? If it's holding the ISS in place why does it not hold the astronauts in place? And why would they push away? And if they did shouldn't the gravity pull them back to it? So it's strong enough to hold a massive structure in place but not an astronaut? And how does gravity decide exactly where to hold the ISS, the moon or satellites? Gravity seems to behave like an intelligent tractor beam.
they are still orbiting the Earth.  If they pushed away from the ISS, the gravitational attraction of the ISS to the astronauts is not great.  They would then have a slightly different orbit around the Earth.
There is no "deciding" where to hold the ISS, moon, or satellites.  Orbits are determined by the mass of the object being orbited and the speed of the orbiting object.  More speed gives you a bigger orbit.  Less speed a smaller orbit.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: TheRealBillNye on December 24, 2016, 05:24:44 PM
I mean according to the inverse square law the Earths gravity increases in strength the further out it goes

Actually the opposite is true. Earth's gravity becomes exponentially LESS strong the further away you travel.

Do you know how an inverse square works?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: rabinoz on December 24, 2016, 06:13:13 PM
And how does gravity decide exactly where to hold the ISS, the moon or satellites? Gravity seems to behave like an intelligent tractor beam.

Gravitation does not decide anything it is not "intelligent".

An astronaut in space has the combined gravitational fields of all objects acting together,
but the effect depends on the mass of the object and on the inverse square of the distance from the object.

The moon is about 384,000 km away from the astronaut and the centre of the earth about (radius of earth + 400 km), so the moon's effect is very small.
The ISS has a mass of about 400,000 kg and the earth has a mass of almost 6 × 1024 kg.

The huge mass of the earth wins out (about 133 kg force)  by a huge margin over the ISS (about 4 mg force) and the moon (about 0.5 g force) - If my calculations are correct.

If ISS and astronaut are in a stable orbit around the earth gravitation provides the centripetal acceleration needed to keep them there.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 25, 2016, 12:24:10 AM
if there is no direction in space
Sorry, I'm new here, but who has claimed there is "no direction in space?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   "There is no "up" in space. Earth has nowhere to fall to." this comment was made by "RocksEverywhere" on my post "I thought perpetual motion didn't exist"       

Note for those watching, this is the comment in question:
But weight is a force and the Earth is very heavy.
There is no "up" in space. Earth has nowhere to fall to.

The issue is that "up" in space is ambiguous.
I think what he meant was that there is no universal "up" direction where everything should be falling "down".
But yes, he was technically wrong.

Also, in that thread other people, including myself, answered you.
I pointed out 2 of your questions were related, effectively having the same answer.
That was your question about what is propelling Earth/keeping it in motion, and why Earth doesn't fall.

The answer was that Earth does "fall". That falling is what is propelling (and steering) Earth, keeping it in motion and keeping it orbiting the sun.
As it falls it also moves sideways. And as it moves sideways, the direction of "down" will change as well, as it will point to the barycenter of the Earth-Sun system (approximately).


                                                                                                                               Okay then what about when they are on space walks, they have to be tethered or they will just float out into space? Wouldn't the gravity hold them to the ISS? So gravity behaves differently in space? It seems gravity behaves like a selective tractor beam.
The gravitational attraction of the ISS is pretty much nothing.
Gravity is fairly predictable with a possible exception of very large distances (galactic scales).
The force due to gravity is given by the formula:
F=GMm/r^2, which G is a constant 6.67E-11 N m^2/kg^2=m^3/ s^2 kg, M is the mass of one object, m is the mass of the other object and r is the distance between them.
The acceleration due to gravity for the object with mass m is GM/r^2.

For someone just outside the ISS:
Earth has a mass of 5.97E+24 kg. The distance to the centre of Earth is roughly 6800 km (6400 km radius, 400 km orbital height) or 6 800 000 m (6.8E+6 m).
This means their acceleration due to Earth's gravity is 8.62 m/s^2. (On Earth, it is a lot higher).
For the ISS it is a lot less.
The ISS's mass is ~420 000 kg (4.2E+5 kg). So if you treat it as a point particle, with the astronaut 1m away from the centre (which would still be inside it), then the acceleration would be 2.8 E-5 m/s^2.

If you assume this magically stays constant (which it doesn't, it will drop as the astronaut drifts away), and an astronaut pushes themselves away at a staggering rate of 1 cm /s (which is VERY slow), then it would take them over 350 seconds just to stop, which is quite some time.
In those 350 seconds, the person would have moved an extra 178 cm, or 1.78 m. This will increase their distance from the centre to 2.78 m and thus their acceleration drops to 3.6E-6 m/s^2.

You can also calculate the escape velocity of an object. This is the velocity at which gravity (so ignoring with resistance) will slow the object down continually without stopping it. So it will lose speed as it goes away and the rate it will lose speed will also drop and it will forever be approaching a speed of 0, but never quite getting there. If you are below that velocity, then gravity alone is enough to stop you moving away from the object and bring you back to it. If you are above it, instead of approaching 0, you will approach some other speed with you continuing to move away from the object.
This is similar to the formula for acceleration, it is:
v=sqrt(2GM/r)

So for Earth (with an enlarged radius of 6400 km), the escape velocity is 11160.7 m/s or over 11 km/s. That is very fast. You would need some pretty decent rockets to achieve that.
For Earth, at ISS' orbit, it is lower, but not by much. It is still over 10.8 km/s.
For our hypothetical person location 1m away from the hypothetical point particle ISS, it is only ~0.0075 m/s or 7.5 mm/s.

What this means is that if an astronaut on the ISS, even in this best case hypothetical situation, manages to push themselves away at a speed of 7.5 mm/s, they will never be coming back unless they manage to intersect the orbit or are otherwise rescued.
That is why they are tethered.

Perhaps one thing to note is that the mass of an object (assuming the density stays the same) scales as r^3, which means the escape velocity scales as a function of sqrt(r^3/r), or r, and the acceleration will scale as a function of (r^3/r^2) or r. This means for something tiny like the ISS, it will have basically no gravity detectable by man. It is too small for us to feel it.
But for something massive like Earth, it will be very easy for us to notice it unless we are in free fall.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 25, 2016, 12:49:49 AM
Well apparently there IS gravity in space so you could take a level with you, but then again from what I've heard so far gravity doesn't seem to behave in any kind of predictable manner so just take a wild guess.
No. It behaves in a predictable manner, it can just be difficult to understand if you don't spend time to think about it and take note of all factors.

I mean according to the inverse square law the Earths gravity increases in strength the further out it goes but they don't mention if that is a constant or if it ever decreases,
It decreases the further out you go. If you double your distance then the force/acceleration due to gravity will be 1/4 of what it was.

The only part we aren't very sure if it does act the same is on the galactic scale of tens of thousands of light years.


not to mention the sun's gravity which is holding all the planets in it's orbit, so apparently space is awash in gravity but it seems very selective in nature, it just holds everything perfectly in place except for astronauts on space walks, they have to be tethered.
No. Nothing is held perfectly in place. This is what allows us to launch rockets and satellites.

Gravity isn't some sentient force guiding planets along a path.
And sometimes people don't even understand the true path.
For example, many think Earth's path is an ellipse. It isn't. It has an ellipse as a base, but it has sinusoidal perturbations due to the moon (and to a lesser extent by other objects).

Objects like the ISS are in orbit around Earth. You can consider this as falling towards Earth, while also moving sideways.
When you are falling, if you throw something away, gravity doesn't magically bring it back to you. It just keeps on making you both fall.
The same applies with the astronauts and the ISS.
As they are falling, if the astronaut pushes the ISS away, they get separated, gravity wont magically bring them back together.

And why do meteors hit the Earth? Wouldn't Earth's gravity grab a hold of them and hold them in orbit?
No. It won't. Some meteors can be "put" in "orbits" (or exist in them) such as at L4 and L5. But there are infinite possible orbits that exist (especially if you include hyperbolic and parabolic ones). Everything near Earth, which is just being affected by gravity (so no standing on things or air resistance or rockets) is in an orbit. It is just lots of these orbits intersect with Earth, at which point other forces act to bring it out of orbit.

So when a meteor does come near Earth, it will typically enter an orbit. If it is travelling fast enough that will be a hyperbolic orbit, meaning it will just pass us and leave.
If it is slow enough, it will be an elliptical orbit, often getting far enough away to be pulled away by another massive object. But like I said, some times these orbits will intersect Earth resulting in them hitting us.

If it's because they have their own propulsion then what is propelling them?
Not quite. It is more we specifically put the ISS into a specific orbit and made its velocity match that required for that particular orbit. For any particular altitude, there is only 1 velocity for a circular orbit. Any slower, and it is in an elliptical orbit which reaches a lower point, potentially crashing into Earth (such as whenever you throw a ball, ignoring the wind or release something in a vacuum chamber). If it is faster, it could be an elliptical orbit or a parabolic or hyperbolic one (and this is assuming your velocity is perpendicular to "down")

And apparently we are constantly falling toward the sun which means there is an up and down in space but nevertheless wherever you are on the "globe" everything is upright. And a if we are falling toward the sun eventually we have to slingshot around it, and again gravity seems to display selective, intelligent properties, instead of slinging us out into space it adjusts and holds us perfectly in place etc. etc.
Again, up and down is relative. Relative to the solar system, the sun can be considered down.
Earth, and everything on it, is falling towards the sun, and it is falling at pretty much the same speed so we don't notice any difference in the acceleration of us and Earth.
We are also constantly moving sideways, so we are constantly "slingshotting" around it. It is like a ball on a string being spun around.


Relative to Earth, the centre of Earth is down. This is because Earth's gravity is pulling us down. For the ISS, its mass is too low to have any significant gravity to pull the astronauts to it.

There is nothing selective or intelligent about it.

Okay, what about Earth's gravitation? If it's holding the ISS in place why does it not hold the astronauts in place? And why would they push away? And if they did shouldn't the gravity pull them back to it? So it's strong enough to hold a massive structure in place but not an astronaut? And how does gravity decide exactly where to hold the ISS, the moon or satellites? Gravity seems to behave like an intelligent tractor beam.
It isn't holding it in place.
It is causing it to continually alter course resulting in it orbiting Earth rather than flying off into space.
There isn't a magic path it tries to keep the ISS on.

Again, it is just like falling. If you push an object away while falling, it moves away. You both falling doesn't magically bring you together.

Due to the astronauts velocity, it will be "held" in orbit as well. But there is no intelligence making the orbits (other than man setting them up). So they won't be brought back together, they will have their own orbits.

It is just like a path of a falling object, actions that object does will affect the path it takes, gravity doesn't decide, it just results in an acceleration/force based upon a simple formula (which can get quite complex when you consider all bodies).

The same applies to other satellites including the moon (a natural satellite).
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: SkepticMike on December 25, 2016, 03:55:12 AM
If you could go out into space, far away from earth, which direction would be up?

The opposite direction to down.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 25, 2016, 05:14:32 AM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?
There is gravity in space. The reason things float inside say the ISS is that the ISS is orbiting the earth, and thus is in a constant state of free fall. Essentially the ISS is constantly falling. Everything inside it is falling at the same rate, so there is no relative acceleration, and the impression that there is no gravity is given.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay then what about when they are on space walks, they have to be tethered or they will just float out into space? Wouldn't the gravity hold them to the ISS? So gravity behaves differently in space? It seems gravity behaves like a selective tractor beam.

Why would gravity hold them to the ISS? I don't understand what you mean...
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 25, 2016, 05:22:48 AM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?
There is gravity in space. The reason things float inside say the ISS is that the ISS is orbiting the earth, and thus is in a constant state of free fall. Essentially the ISS is constantly falling. Everything inside it is falling at the same rate, so there is no relative acceleration, and the impression that there is no gravity is given.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay then what about when they are on space walks, they have to be tethered or they will just float out into space? Wouldn't the gravity hold them to the ISS? So gravity behaves differently in space? It seems gravity behaves like a selective tractor beam.
the gravitational attraction of the ISS to the astronauts is very small compared to the force they could push themselves away with.  Gravity does not behave differently.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay, what about Earth's gravitation? If it's holding the ISS in place why does it not hold the astronauts in place? And why would they push away? And if they did shouldn't the gravity pull them back to it? So it's strong enough to hold a massive structure in place but not an astronaut? And how does gravity decide exactly where to hold the ISS, the moon or satellites? Gravity seems to behave like an intelligent tractor beam.

Gravity doesn't hold things together, it pulls them. The ISS isn't held together, it's just in orbit. It's similar to how athletes in hammer throw essentially pull the hammer towards them, and the result is the hammer moving in circles around them. Objects orbiting the earth are basically in a state of constant free fall, as I have already told you. How does that correspond to gravity holding astronauts together?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: 1on0ne on December 25, 2016, 10:07:16 AM
So if there is no direction in space then here's a simple way to prove it, the next time they go to space, if that's really even possible, take a carpenters level up there with them and when they go on a space walk they could take the level out with them and document what the bubble does, on film of course. With no gravity present it shouldn't react the same way it would normally, actually it shouldn't react at all, and they couldn't fake this in a pool.

they would put up a nice CGI and nobody would care anyway
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 25, 2016, 11:59:43 AM
If you could go out into space, far away from earth, which direction would be up?

The opposite direction to down.
And what way would be down?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 25, 2016, 12:05:27 PM
they would put up a nice CGI and nobody would care anyway
And that's the other issue.
People like you don't care about the truth. You just want to be right.
Any evidence provided that goes against your view, you will just dismiss.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 25, 2016, 12:35:36 PM
People like you don't care about the truth. You just want to be right.
Any evidence provided that goes against your view, you will just dismiss.

So, you wonder into a forum called The FLAT EARTH SOCIETY, of your own volition, and set forth to conquer that with which you disagree. Furthermore you expect FES to roll over and worship your ideas and opinions above their own.


People like you don't care about the truth.

People like you - I feel sorry for.


Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 25, 2016, 12:44:26 PM
People like you don't care about the truth. You just want to be right.
Any evidence provided that goes against your view, you will just dismiss.

So, you wonder into a forum called The FLAT EARTH SOCIETY, of your own volition, and set forth to conquer that with which you disagree. Furthermore you expect FES to roll over and worship your ideas and opinions above their own.


People like you don't care about the truth.

People like you - I feel sorry for.

No. I don't expect them to roll over and worship me or my opinions. I don't even expect them to give a damn about facts and evidence that is presented.

Some people may not be completely indoctrinated into the flat Earth cult. It is these people I am here for. To point out all the bullshit "supporting" a flat Earth so they dont' get indoctrinated.
All it takes for bullshit to triumph is for smart, rational people to say nothing.

I don't really care if pathetic people feel sorry for me. They have no reason to.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 25, 2016, 01:48:09 PM

Some people may not be completely indoctrinated into the flat Earth cult. It is these people I am here for. To point out all the bullshit "supporting" a flat Earth so they dont' get indoctrinated.



So, you view yourself as the Savior?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 25, 2016, 01:48:20 PM
If you could go out into space, far away from earth, which direction would be up?

The opposite direction to down.
And what way would be down?

The direction perpendicular to left.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 25, 2016, 02:14:14 PM

Some people may not be completely indoctrinated into the flat Earth cult. It is these people I am here for. To point out all the bullshit "supporting" a flat Earth so they dont' get indoctrinated.



So, you view yourself as the Savior?
No. One person alone is not enough to deal with all the bullshit that is said.
I just try my best to help.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 25, 2016, 02:16:38 PM
If you could go out into space, far away from earth, which direction would be up?

The opposite direction to down.
And what way would be down?

The direction perpendicular to left.
But isn't that up as well?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 25, 2016, 02:20:03 PM
If you could go out into space, far away from earth, which direction would be up?

The opposite direction to down.
And what way would be down?

The direction perpendicular to left.
But isn't that up as well?

Yes, but it's the other way.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Bullwinkle on December 25, 2016, 03:13:07 PM

But isn't that up as well?



(http://i.imgur.com/E7pFSuP.gif)
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 25, 2016, 05:35:39 PM

But isn't that up as well?



(http://i.imgur.com/E7pFSuP.gif)

But what if you are in intergalactic space?
What galaxy core do you use then?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 25, 2016, 06:35:48 PM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?
Who says there's no gravity in space? There's plenty of gravity in space.

Astronauts, the ISS and satellites in general are 'weightless' because they are free-falling, that is they are yielding to gravity completely. An object only has weight when it resists gravity, not when it yields to it.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay can you please explain this further? So is everything in freefall, including the sun? Or are we freefalling towards the sun and the sun is stationary? Because if we are freefalling towards the sun then when we slingshot around it and head in the opposite direction that would be the opposite of freefalling, we would be travelling upwards, and against the sun's gravity at that. Actually that would be true even if we were travelling towards the sun horizontally when we slingshot around it and travel in the opposite direction we would be resisting the sun's gravity.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 25, 2016, 09:08:44 PM
Okay can you please explain this further? So is everything in freefall, including the sun? Or are we freefalling towards the sun and the sun is stationary? Because if we are freefalling towards the sun then when we slingshot around it and head in the opposite direction that would be the opposite of freefalling, we would be travelling upwards, and against the sun's gravity at that. Actually that would be true even if we were travelling towards the sun horizontally when we slingshot around it and travel in the opposite direction we would be resisting the sun's gravity.
It gets more and more complicated as you consider more and more of reality.
The sun (the entire solar system actually) is in free fall around the galactic centre.
There are also various perterbations from other objects.

When just considering our solar system, the sun is effectively stationary (it actually wobbles a bit for each planet, which can be considered as the combination of the various orbits around the planet-sun barycenters, but that barycentre is well inside the sun).

And the sun determines what direction "down" is.

This means the sun is effectively in free fall around the sun.
But it isn't just falling down towards the sun, it is also moving sideways.
These movements combine to produce a roughly circular orbit.
Similar to how a ball on a string is constantly being pulled towards the centre by the string, but the sideways movement keeps it going in a circle instead of falling directly to it.

As I have said before (but not necessarily here):
Imagine an object following a circular path, which for simplicity of analysis is broken into 360 pieces.
It starts off half way along one of these peices travelling at a velocity of [0,100,0], at say a position of [100,0,0], and the direction of down is towards the centre, so in the direction [-1, 0, 0].
At the end of that piece, it needs to change direction to travel at a speed of 100 at a slight angle (1 degree off course).
This means it would now be travelling at [-1.74524064372835, 99.9847695156391, 0].
This represents a change in velocity of [-1.74524064372835, -0.0152304843608704, 0].
This is a change of 1.7453071, in the direction towards the centre of the circle.
So it has been accelerated towards the centre, or "down", to maintain a circular path.

This is simply how uniform circular motion works. In general, the acceleration required to maintain a circular path is given by v^2/r.

When Earth is on the other side of its orbit (corresponding to the hypothetical example having a velocity of [0, -100, 0], at a position [-100,0,0]) down is still towards the sun. This is a different direction to when Earth was on the other side. (the hypothetical example now has down being [1,0,0]).

As Earth travels around its orbit, down continues to point in the direction of the sun.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 26, 2016, 02:29:56 AM
Which brings up a new question, if there is no gravity in space then how is the Earth's gravity holding the moon? It holds the moon in place but astronauts just float around up there? I hear that there is no gravity in space but then I hear that the Earth's gravity holds the moon, satellites, the ISS etc. in place, and the sun holds all the planets in orbit etc. etc. So which one is it? Is there gravity in space or isn't there? Or are astronauts just immune to gravity in space?
Who says there's no gravity in space? There's plenty of gravity in space.

Astronauts, the ISS and satellites in general are 'weightless' because they are free-falling, that is they are yielding to gravity completely. An object only has weight when it resists gravity, not when it yields to it.
                                                                                                                                                          Okay can you please explain this further? So is everything in freefall, including the sun? Or are we freefalling towards the sun and the sun is stationary? Because if we are freefalling towards the sun then when we slingshot around it and head in the opposite direction that would be the opposite of freefalling, we would be travelling upwards, and against the sun's gravity at that. Actually that would be true even if we were travelling towards the sun horizontally when we slingshot around it and travel in the opposite direction we would be resisting the sun's gravity.

We are in a state of free fall towards the sun and sun is in a state of free fall towards the centre of the galaxy.

"when we slingshot around it and head in the opposite direction that would be the opposite of freefalling, we would be travelling upwards, and against the sun's gravity at that."

That's still considered free fall in physics.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 26, 2016, 06:27:30 PM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 26, 2016, 06:32:40 PM
I mean according to the inverse square law the Earths gravity increases in strength the further out it goes

Actually the opposite is true. Earth's gravity becomes exponentially LESS strong the further away you travel.

Do you know how an inverse square works?
                                                                                                                                                          Honestly I got it wrong before, I revisited it and understand it now, I think I was pretty tired when I looked at it the first time.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Pezevenk on December 27, 2016, 02:27:01 AM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.

"How fast" is the wrong question. Free fall in this case doesn't necessarily mean the object is going down (meaning towards the object that is attracting it). In circular orbits, the object keeps a fixed distance forever. You should be asking what the acceleration is. In the case of the ISS, it's probably a bit less than 9.8 m/s^2.

If you want a more in depth explanation, it will require some math.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 27, 2016, 03:36:24 AM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.
Do you mean how fast is Earth travelling, or do you mean what is the free fall itself?
Earth is currently travelling around the sun at a rate of roughly 30 km/s.
We can determine the acceleration in 2 ways.
One is by using our orbit, the other is by using calculations for gravity.
Using our orbital velocity of 30 km/s, and our radius of 150 000 000 km, this gives an acceleration of 0.006 m/s^2.
Using more precise values, it gives 0.00593 m/s^2.
Using gravity, we get a value of 0.00593 m/s^2.

Does that answer your question?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: dans on December 27, 2016, 02:10:08 PM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.
Do you mean how fast is Earth travelling, or do you mean what is the free fall itself?
Earth is currently travelling around the sun at a rate of roughly 30 km/s.
We can determine the acceleration in 2 ways.
One is by using our orbit, the other is by using calculations for gravity.
Using our orbital velocity of 30 km/s, and our radius of 150 000 000 km, this gives an acceleration of 0.006 m/s^2.
Using more precise values, it gives 0.00593 m/s^2.
Using gravity, we get a value of 0.00593 m/s^2.

Does that answer your question?
Or ssomething like this:
(http://)
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: totallackey on December 27, 2016, 02:52:36 PM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.
Do you mean how fast is Earth travelling, or do you mean what is the free fall itself?
Earth is currently travelling around the sun at a rate of roughly 30 km/s.
We can determine the acceleration in 2 ways.
One is by using our orbit, the other is by using calculations for gravity.
Using our orbital velocity of 30 km/s, and our radius of 150 000 000 km, this gives an acceleration of 0.006 m/s^2.
Using more precise values, it gives 0.00593 m/s^2.
Using gravity, we get a value of 0.00593 m/s^2.

Does that answer your question?
Or ssomething like this:
(http://)

Anybody who believes that bullshit video is actually taking place needs their _ _ _ _ _ _ _ head examined.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: dans on December 27, 2016, 03:11:09 PM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.
Do you mean how fast is Earth travelling, or do you mean what is the free fall itself?
Earth is currently travelling around the sun at a rate of roughly 30 km/s.
We can determine the acceleration in 2 ways.
One is by using our orbit, the other is by using calculations for gravity.
Using our orbital velocity of 30 km/s, and our radius of 150 000 000 km, this gives an acceleration of 0.006 m/s^2.
Using more precise values, it gives 0.00593 m/s^2.
Using gravity, we get a value of 0.00593 m/s^2.

Does that answer your question?
Or ssomething like this:
(http://)

Anybody who believes that bullshit video is actually taking place needs their _ _ _ _ _ _ _ head examined.

Hello totallackey (i like the irony of your nickname anyway... :P),

So...are you telling me that we're living in something like this?

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_o9BLyKHDLd8/TGD_1389nEI/AAAAAAAACI0/GmkpmzVxaRY/s1600/3313wic4.jpg)


Oh my... ::)
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Space Cowgirl on December 27, 2016, 03:21:10 PM
Those columns look a lot like elephant legs!
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: dans on December 27, 2016, 03:25:39 PM
Those columns look a lot like elephant legs!

I know right? ;D

Those Hindu must be right... ::)
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 27, 2016, 06:27:25 PM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.
Do you mean how fast is Earth travelling, or do you mean what is the free fall itself?
Earth is currently travelling around the sun at a rate of roughly 30 km/s.
We can determine the acceleration in 2 ways.
One is by using our orbit, the other is by using calculations for gravity.
Using our orbital velocity of 30 km/s, and our radius of 150 000 000 km, this gives an acceleration of 0.006 m/s^2.
Using more precise values, it gives 0.00593 m/s^2.
Using gravity, we get a value of 0.00593 m/s^2.

Does that answer your question?
                                                                                                                                                          Yes, that and the video gives me a much better understanding of what you are trying to convey, thanks.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 27, 2016, 06:29:51 PM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.
Do you mean how fast is Earth travelling, or do you mean what is the free fall itself?
Earth is currently travelling around the sun at a rate of roughly 30 km/s.
We can determine the acceleration in 2 ways.
One is by using our orbit, the other is by using calculations for gravity.
Using our orbital velocity of 30 km/s, and our radius of 150 000 000 km, this gives an acceleration of 0.006 m/s^2.
Using more precise values, it gives 0.00593 m/s^2.
Using gravity, we get a value of 0.00593 m/s^2.

Does that answer your question?
Or ssomething like this:
(http://)
                                                                                                                                                          Thanks, that makes it a lot more clear.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: rabinoz on December 27, 2016, 06:51:09 PM
Those columns look a lot like elephant legs!
Here this better?

The late Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" shows why they look like elephant's legs.
(http://geeklyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Great-ATuin.jpg)
Don't ask me what supports the turtle,  :P probably dark energy :P!
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: rabinoz on December 27, 2016, 06:59:15 PM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.
Do you mean how fast is Earth travelling, or do you mean what is the free fall itself?
Earth is currently travelling around the sun at a rate of roughly 30 km/s.
We can determine the acceleration in 2 ways.
One is by using our orbit, the other is by using calculations for gravity.
Using our orbital velocity of 30 km/s, and our radius of 150 000 000 km, this gives an acceleration of 0.006 m/s^2.
Using more precise values, it gives 0.00593 m/s^2.
Using gravity, we get a value of 0.00593 m/s^2.

Does that answer your question?
Or something like this:
]The true actual motion of planets and sun through space (http://)
                                                                                                                                                          Thanks, that makes it a lot more clear.
I think JackBlack likes to confuse things. Showing things relative to right frame of reference can simplify things a lot.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 27, 2016, 07:40:43 PM
Those columns look a lot like elephant legs!
Here this better?

The late Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" shows why they look like elephant's legs.
(http://geeklyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Great-ATuin.jpg)
Don't ask me what supports the turtle,  :P probably dark energy :P!
                                                                                                                                                          It's an artistic rendering, just like NASA's pictures of the Globe. Amazing how they have differed so much over the years except for one thing...it retains it's absolutely perfect globe shape.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: disputeone on December 27, 2016, 07:48:07 PM
Those columns look a lot like elephant legs!
Here this better?

The late Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" shows why they look like elephant's legs.
(http://geeklyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Great-ATuin.jpg)
Don't ask me what supports the turtle,  :P probably dark energy :P!

It's turtles all the way down, silly.

                                                                                                                                                      It's an artistic rendering, just like NASA's pictures of the Globe. Amazing how they have differed so much over the years except for one thing...it retains it's absolutely perfect globe shape.

Incorrect.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: rabinoz on December 27, 2016, 08:47:22 PM
It's an artistic rendering, just like NASA's pictures of the Globe. Amazing how they have differed so much over the years except for one thing...it retains it's absolutely perfect globe shape.
Ever think what you are saying? Obviously not. You mean this sort of thing?
(https://www.metabunk.org/sk/NASA_Blue_Marbles_Comparison_-_1600.jpg)
Quote from: Mick West, Metabunk
This month NASA released a new photo of the Earth from space (http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-satellite-camera-provides-epic-view-of-earth), taken from the DSCOVER satellite, 930,000 miles above the Earth. Some people have claimed that this new image shows an increasingly hazy Earth, and that this is evidence of an increase in pollution, or a secret geoengineering program (using "chemtrails"). Some more extreme theorist have suggested that the image is fake because the continents (particularly North America) appear to be a different size to earlier photos.

The misconception comes from a misunderstanding about how the photos are taken. This new 2015 image is noteworthy because it's the first time since 1972 that a good quality single image photograph has been taken of the Earth. The previous last image (in 1972) was taken by an astronaut from on board the Apollo 17 spacecraft during the last manned mission to the Moon. This was the first image called the "Blue Marble", although there had been similar images taken before (such as the 1967 images taken by the ATS3 satellite), the 1972 Blue Marble image became iconic, and remains the last such image taken by an actual person.

From Debunked: "Blue Marble" Photos show a Changing Earth (https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-blue-marble-photos-show-a-changing-earth.t6616/)
Yes, the continents that are visible depends on which part of the globe is facing the camera and their relative size depends on the distance from Earth that the photo was taken. To get most of the globe in the photograph the distance needs to be at least 20,000 miles, and even there almost 8° is missing, usually near the poles. See this simulation using a desktop globe:
(https://www.metabunk.org/sk/globe_comparison_with_distance.jpg)
From Debunked: "Blue Marble" Photos show a Changing Earth (https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-blue-marble-photos-show-a-changing-earth.t6616/)

Any more complaints?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: rabinoz on December 27, 2016, 08:55:06 PM
The late Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" shows why they look like elephant's legs.
(http://geeklyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Great-ATuin.jpg)
Don't ask me what supports the turtle,  :P probably dark energy :P!

It's turtles all the way down, silly.

I don't see any more turtles, and by my Zetetic reasoning that means that there can't be any more! That proves that it  :P probably is dark energy :P!
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: disputeone on December 27, 2016, 10:48:27 PM
The late Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" shows why they look like elephant's legs.
(http://geeklyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Great-ATuin.jpg)
Don't ask me what supports the turtle,  :P probably dark energy :P!

It's turtles all the way down, silly.

I don't see any more turtles, and by my Zetetic reasoning that means that there can't be any more! That proves that it  :P probably is dark energy :P!

Touchè.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Space Cowgirl on December 28, 2016, 01:28:03 PM
The late Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" shows why they look like elephant's legs.
(http://geeklyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Great-ATuin.jpg)
Don't ask me what supports the turtle,  :P probably dark energy :P!

It's turtles all the way down, silly.

I don't see any more turtles, and by my Zetetic reasoning that means that there can't be any more! That proves that it  :P probably is dark energy :P!

I loved Discworld, but you do know that he didn't come up with the idea that the world rests on the back of a turtle?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: TheRealBillNye on December 28, 2016, 02:59:54 PM
The late Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" shows why they look like elephant's legs.
(http://geeklyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Great-ATuin.jpg)
Don't ask me what supports the turtle,  :P probably dark energy :P!

It's turtles all the way down, silly.

I don't see any more turtles, and by my Zetetic reasoning that means that there can't be any more! That proves that it  :P probably is dark energy :P!

I loved Discworld, but you do know that he didn't come up with the idea that the world rests on the back of a turtle?

No, I used to debate with a Jehovas Witness who insisted there were turtles all the way down. I believe this story has religious roots.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: totallackey on December 28, 2016, 03:25:45 PM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.
Do you mean how fast is Earth travelling, or do you mean what is the free fall itself?
Earth is currently travelling around the sun at a rate of roughly 30 km/s.
We can determine the acceleration in 2 ways.
One is by using our orbit, the other is by using calculations for gravity.
Using our orbital velocity of 30 km/s, and our radius of 150 000 000 km, this gives an acceleration of 0.006 m/s^2.
Using more precise values, it gives 0.00593 m/s^2.
Using gravity, we get a value of 0.00593 m/s^2.

Does that answer your question?
Or ssomething like this:
(http://)

Anybody who believes that bullshit video is actually taking place needs their _ _ _ _ _ _ _ head examined.

Hello totallackey (i like the irony of your nickname anyway... :P),

So...are you telling me that we're living in something like this?

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_o9BLyKHDLd8/TGD_1389nEI/AAAAAAAACI0/GmkpmzVxaRY/s1600/3313wic4.jpg)


Oh my... ::)

No.I am telling you the animated bullshit in that video is not taking place. The Earth is not hurtling through space chasing around the Sun.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: rabinoz on December 28, 2016, 03:34:55 PM
No.I am telling you the animated bullshit in that video is not taking place. The Earth is not hurtling through space chasing around the Sun.

You are telling us me!  ;D What wonderful evidence  ;D !
Your trying to convince me that the sky was blue, would be enough to send me racing outside to double check!

Simply you saying somethings means nothing at all. Your not believing something is no evidence that is not true.

<< Fixed for His Royal Highness Totally Crappy >>
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Space Cowgirl on December 28, 2016, 03:49:11 PM
The late Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" shows why they look like elephant's legs.
(http://geeklyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Great-ATuin.jpg)
Don't ask me what supports the turtle,  :P probably dark energy :P!

It's turtles all the way down, silly.

I don't see any more turtles, and by my Zetetic reasoning that means that there can't be any more! That proves that it  :P probably is dark energy :P!

I loved Discworld, but you do know that he didn't come up with the idea that the world rests on the back of a turtle?

No, I used to debate with a Jehovas Witness who insisted there were turtles all the way down. I believe this story has religious roots.

Even the Jehovah's didn't come up with that saying. The World Turtle is a more ancient belief, Terry Pratchett just borrowed it.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: totallackey on December 28, 2016, 04:03:54 PM
No.I am telling you the animated bullshit in that video is not taking place. The Earth is not hurtling through space chasing around the Sun.

You are telling us!  ;D What wonderful evidence  ;D !
Your trying to convince me that the sky was blue, would be enough to send me racing outside to double check!

Simply you saying somethings means nothing at all. Your not believing something is no evidence that is not true.
No.I am telling you the animated bullshit in that video is not taking place. The Earth is not hurtling through space chasing around the Sun.

You are telling us!  ;D What wonderful evidence  ;D !
Your trying to convince me that the sky was blue, would be enough to send me racing outside to double check!

Simply you saying somethings means nothing at all. Your not believing something is no evidence that is not true.

Was the post written to you Geoff?

Was it?

Did I write, "I am telling you and Geoff and everyone else here the animated bullshit in that video is not taking place."?

The answer to that question is, "no."

Once more with clarity. Despite your assertions to the contrary, I do not accept the idea you are writing for each and every member here. When you write and use the word, "we," you are communicating that impression; that, or perhaps signifying you are royalty. Either way, it is poor form to claim the ability to answer for every member here or brag about your current order of precedence.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: kiwhen on December 28, 2016, 04:38:28 PM
You did actually write "Anybody who believes that bullshit video is actually taking place needs their _ _ _ _ _ _ _ head examined.". And I for one assume that when you write "anybody", you do mean anybody in the strictest and quite frankly only meaning of the word.


Why exactly do you think that I need my head examined?
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 28, 2016, 04:40:58 PM
So how fast is the freefall? The speed of revolution and orbit notwithstanding.
Do you mean how fast is Earth travelling, or do you mean what is the free fall itself?
Earth is currently travelling around the sun at a rate of roughly 30 km/s.
We can determine the acceleration in 2 ways.
One is by using our orbit, the other is by using calculations for gravity.
Using our orbital velocity of 30 km/s, and our radius of 150 000 000 km, this gives an acceleration of 0.006 m/s^2.
Using more precise values, it gives 0.00593 m/s^2.
Using gravity, we get a value of 0.00593 m/s^2.

Does that answer your question?
Or ssomething like this:
(http://)

Anybody who believes that bullshit video is actually taking place needs their _ _ _ _ _ _ _ head examined.

Hello totallackey (i like the irony of your nickname anyway... :P),

So...are you telling me that we're living in something like this?

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_o9BLyKHDLd8/TGD_1389nEI/AAAAAAAACI0/GmkpmzVxaRY/s1600/3313wic4.jpg)


Oh my... ::)

No.I am telling you the animated bullshit in that video is not taking place. The Earth is not hurtling through space chasing around the Sun.
Well, you are somewhat right.
Those trails aren't left. The sun goes up and down in the galactic plane as well as its circular path.
I'm not sure if they get the angle right either.

But that pretty much does happen.

If you wish to assert those those that believe it does need to have their head examined, you will need to back up your claim.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: Overworld on December 28, 2016, 06:06:02 PM
It's an artistic rendering, just like NASA's pictures of the Globe. Amazing how they have differed so much over the years except for one thing...it retains it's absolutely perfect globe shape.
Ever think what you are saying? Obviously not. You mean this sort of thing?
(https://www.metabunk.org/sk/NASA_Blue_Marbles_Comparison_-_1600.jpg)
Quote from: Mick West, Metabunk
This month NASA released a new photo of the Earth from space (http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-satellite-camera-provides-epic-view-of-earth), taken from the DSCOVER satellite, 930,000 miles above the Earth. Some people have claimed that this new image shows an increasingly hazy Earth, and that this is evidence of an increase in pollution, or a secret geoengineering program (using "chemtrails"). Some more extreme theorist have suggested that the image is fake because the continents (particularly North America) appear to be a different size to earlier photos.

The misconception comes from a misunderstanding about how the photos are taken. This new 2015 image is noteworthy because it's the first time since 1972 that a good quality single image photograph has been taken of the Earth. The previous last image (in 1972) was taken by an astronaut from on board the Apollo 17 spacecraft during the last manned mission to the Moon. This was the first image called the "Blue Marble", although there had been similar images taken before (such as the 1967 images taken by the ATS3 satellite), the 1972 Blue Marble image became iconic, and remains the last such image taken by an actual person.

From Debunked: "Blue Marble" Photos show a Changing Earth (https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-blue-marble-photos-show-a-changing-earth.t6616/)
Yes, the continents that are visible depends on which part of the globe is facing the camera and their relative size depends on the distance from Earth that the photo was taken. To get most of the globe in the photograph the distance needs to be at least 20,000 miles, and even there almost 8° is missing, usually near the poles. See this simulation using a desktop globe:
(https://www.metabunk.org/sk/globe_comparison_with_distance.jpg)
From Debunked: "Blue Marble" Photos show a Changing Earth (https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-blue-marble-photos-show-a-changing-earth.t6616/)

Any more complaints?
Well it wasn't a complaint it was a statement, but yeah I've got one...How can the size of the continents change but the size of the globe doesn't? This was obviously staged, just like the NASA "photos", they are probably still laughing about it.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: rabinoz on December 28, 2016, 06:32:57 PM
No.I am telling you the animated bullshit in that video is not taking place. The Earth is not hurtling through space chasing around the Sun.

You are telling us me!  ;D What wonderful evidence  ;D !
Your trying to convince me that the sky was blue, would be enough to send me racing outside to double check!

Simply you saying somethings means nothing at all. Your not believing something is no evidence that is not true.

Was the post written to you Geoff?

Was it?

Did I write, "I am telling you and Geoff and everyone else here the animated bullshit in that video is not taking place."?
The answer to that question is, "no."

Once more with clarity. Despite your assertions to the contrary, I do not accept the idea you are writing for each and every member here. When you write and use the word, "we," you are communicating that impression; that, or perhaps signifying you are royalty. Either way, it is poor form to claim the ability to answer for every member here or brag about your current order of precedence.
There now Your Royal Highness, Totally Crappy I fixed that offending post. Always happy to oblige the local Royalty!

You do read an awful lot into one word! I do not "claim the ability to answer for every member here or brag about" my "current order of precedence."

Climb down off you high horse!

The post may not have been written TO me, to Geoff or even to Uncle Tom Cobley and all, but it was written on a public forum in answer to a post on a public forum.

But when you write utter crap in answer to anybody, I'll answer if I see fit and not be stopped by such as you!

Bye bye,

have a  :) nice day!  :)

PS As I told you before:
      "Clancy's gone to Queensland droving, and we don't know where he are." Geoff's gone with him and last I heard he they met up with a
      "Jolly swagman camped by a billabong,
       Under the shade of a Coolibah tree, singin' Waltzing Matilda."
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: TheRealBillNye on December 28, 2016, 06:39:20 PM
The late Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" shows why they look like elephant's legs.
(http://geeklyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Great-ATuin.jpg)
Don't ask me what supports the turtle,  :P probably dark energy :P!

It's turtles all the way down, silly.

I don't see any more turtles, and by my Zetetic reasoning that means that there can't be any more! That proves that it  :P probably is dark energy :P!

I loved Discworld, but you do know that he didn't come up with the idea that the world rests on the back of a turtle?

No, I used to debate with a Jehovas Witness who insisted there were turtles all the way down. I believe this story has religious roots.

Even the Jehovah's didn't come up with that saying. The World Turtle is a more ancient belief, Terry Pratchett just borrowed it.

I wasn't trying to say it originated with the Jehova's, I was illustrating the fact that this belief predates Pratchett's writings
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: rabinoz on December 28, 2016, 07:28:16 PM
Yes, the continents that are visible depends on which part of the globe is facing the camera and their relative size depends on the distance from Earth that the photo was taken. To get most of the globe in the photograph the distance needs to be at least 20,000 miles, and even there almost 8° is missing, usually near the poles. See this simulation using a desktop globe:
(https://www.metabunk.org/sk/globe_comparison_with_distance.jpg)
From Debunked: "Blue Marble" Photos show a Changing Earth (https://www.metabunk.org/debunked-blue-marble-photos-show-a-changing-earth.t6616/)

Any more complaints?
Well it wasn't a complaint it was a statement, but yeah I've got one...How can the size of the continents change but the size of the globe doesn't? This was obviously staged, just like the NASA "photos", they are probably still laughing about it.

Do you mean to say that you really don't know the answer to "How can the size of the continents change but the size of the globe doesn't?"

The "the size of the continents" do not change and the "the size of the globe" does not change.

What changes is the sizes of the images of the continents. The focal length of the cameras used is set to give a suitable size of the whole globe.

Do you have a camera with a zoom lens?  Those photos of the desk globe were taken with the lens set to different focal lengths so as to keep the Globe about the same size.

Here are a couple of photos I took, not as good as those desk globe ones, but I know that these are just as taken - and you could easily do the same.
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w433/RabDownunder/Perspective/Tennis%20Ball%20-%20near_zpsx7ec6f9f.jpg)
Tennis Ball - 35 mm equiv focal length = 24 mm
     
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w433/RabDownunder/Perspective/Tennis%20Ball%20-%20far_zpsvvllncjk.jpg)
Tennis Ball - 35 mm equiv focal length = 500 mm

If you regard the seam on the tennis ball as a "continent", you can see how its proportion of the globe changes drastically from the close photo (24 mm) to the far one (500 mm). Yes, I know I didn't get the outsides of the ball exactly the same size, but I tried!

And I can imagine that in NASA it would be a case of "they are probably still laughing about it", if they only realised the absolute ignorance of FE earthers comments!

Well, I honestly tried to explain this simply concept to you. Please go and read up on focal length and perspective!

Maybe read up a bit in Learn My Shot, TELEPHOTO LENS PERSPECTIVE COMPRESSION AND THE ANGLE OF VIEW. (http://learnmyshot.com/telephoto-lens-perspective-compression-and-the-angle-of-view/)

It has this video: Telephoto Lens Compression Photography Technique (http://) that might be worth a look.
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: rabinoz on December 28, 2016, 07:34:49 PM
The late Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" shows why they look like elephant's legs.
(http://geeklyinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Great-ATuin.jpg)
Don't ask me what supports the turtle,  :P probably dark energy :P!

That image of "Discworld" does not come directly from any of Terry Pratchett's work, but from a fan club for Terry Pratchett's "Discworld".

The site was Geekly Inc, ENTER THE DISCWORLD: GOODBYE TO SIR TERRY PRATCHETT (http://geeklyinc.com/?s=Discworld&x=0&y=0)
Title: Re: A Simple Level.
Post by: JackBlack on December 28, 2016, 07:52:21 PM
Well it wasn't a complaint it was a statement, but yeah I've got one...How can the size of the continents change but the size of the globe doesn't? This was obviously staged, just like the NASA "photos", they are probably still laughing about it.
It is called scaling.

The photos are scaled to show the object in question.
In some cases zooms are applies, potentially before the photo is even taken.

So no, they are not obviously staged or fake or the like.

And they don't actually change size, just apparent size.