My journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?”
Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
Based on what is admittedly a small sample size of comments I have inferred that most “helios” (as I will refer to those who think the earth orbits the sun) believe that Flat Earthers (Fes) are uneducated and ignorant. This indeed may be true- since I have no way of really knowing the bonafides of those FEs on the board, or elsewhere, (other than those who have published their views and their true identities). I want to make it clear that educated, and uneducated, people can be wrong headed or geniuses in equal proportion. Bill Gates is an uneducated (formally) genius who dropped out of Harvard. So education is no guarantor of either genius or stupidity; to be clear.
Although my professional life was becoming ever busier, I begin studying the matter at night and on the weekends- bringing out my old texts from university days to compare the two. I found myself taking long weekend trips to London to read books, long since forgotten by the present day, written by the scholastics as well as summaries of the great Greek Natural Philosophers. The more I read the more I became convinced that the helio-centric theory became predominate not because of science but because of politics and religious prejudice. It was a tool to further the power and careers of those that backed it. No more and no less. That does not make those who backed Copernicus evil only human. It became evident that the more I studied the pre- Copernicus theories the more I became convinced that those theories were correct.
I started a helio-centrist- but I became, through study and keeping an open mind, and guarding against my own prejudice, have ended as flat earth theorist.
Ah the ad hominem attack and ranting and a raving. My own view, sure shared by other flat earth's, is that your bombast and anger are actually very good signs indeed. At least for you and those who hold this theory close.My journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?”
Oh, hello Mr. Big Words! You don't need long words to seem smart, you need good ideas. Just getting that out of the way.
We don't storm and rant about how you challenge academia. The scientific community can be wrong in the theories it holds up, and there are normally rather large storms when said theories are debunked.
However, we are in a different situation. You are not challenging academia, rather you are challenging massive mounds of evidence which stands against your position (which you manage to dodge in some way or another.Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
No. It sounds like you're giving instructions of how to shackle yourself into a small worldview and ignorance.Based on what is admittedly a small sample size of comments I have inferred that most “helios” (as I will refer to those who think the earth orbits the sun) believe that Flat Earthers (Fes) are uneducated and ignorant. This indeed may be true- since I have no way of really knowing the bonafides of those FEs on the board, or elsewhere, (other than those who have published their views and their true identities). I want to make it clear that educated, and uneducated, people can be wrong headed or geniuses in equal proportion. Bill Gates is an uneducated (formally) genius who dropped out of Harvard. So education is no guarantor of either genius or stupidity; to be clear.
The reason we believe you are ignorant is that you ignore centuries of work and large amounts of evidence which point towards a round earth.Although my professional life was becoming ever busier, I begin studying the matter at night and on the weekends- bringing out my old texts from university days to compare the two. I found myself taking long weekend trips to London to read books, long since forgotten by the present day, written by the scholastics as well as summaries of the great Greek Natural Philosophers. The more I read the more I became convinced that the helio-centric theory became predominate not because of science but because of politics and religious prejudice. It was a tool to further the power and careers of those that backed it. No more and no less. That does not make those who backed Copernicus evil only human. It became evident that the more I studied the pre- Copernicus theories the more I became convinced that those theories were correct.
The reason they have been forgotten is because they are incorrect.I started a helio-centrist- but I became, through study and keeping an open mind, and guarding against my own prejudice, have ended as flat earth theorist.
It sounds like you kept your mind too open. Skepticism is very important.
My journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?”
Oh, hello Mr. Big Words! You don't need long words to seem smart, you need good ideas. Just getting that out of the way.
We don't storm and rant about how you challenge academia. The scientific community can be wrong in the theories it holds up, and there are normally rather large storms when said theories are debunked.
However, we are in a different situation. You are not challenging academia, rather you are challenging massive mounds of evidence which stands against your position (which you manage to dodge in some way or another.Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
No. It sounds like you're giving instructions of how to shackle yourself into a small worldview and ignorance.Based on what is admittedly a small sample size of comments I have inferred that most “helios” (as I will refer to those who think the earth orbits the sun) believe that Flat Earthers (Fes) are uneducated and ignorant. This indeed may be true- since I have no way of really knowing the bonafides of those FEs on the board, or elsewhere, (other than those who have published their views and their true identities). I want to make it clear that educated, and uneducated, people can be wrong headed or geniuses in equal proportion. Bill Gates is an uneducated (formally) genius who dropped out of Harvard. So education is no guarantor of either genius or stupidity; to be clear.
The reason we believe you are ignorant is that you ignore centuries of work and large amounts of evidence which point towards a round earth.Although my professional life was becoming ever busier, I begin studying the matter at night and on the weekends- bringing out my old texts from university days to compare the two. I found myself taking long weekend trips to London to read books, long since forgotten by the present day, written by the scholastics as well as summaries of the great Greek Natural Philosophers. The more I read the more I became convinced that the helio-centric theory became predominate not because of science but because of politics and religious prejudice. It was a tool to further the power and careers of those that backed it. No more and no less. That does not make those who backed Copernicus evil only human. It became evident that the more I studied the pre- Copernicus theories the more I became convinced that those theories were correct.
The reason they have been forgotten is because they are incorrect.I started a helio-centrist- but I became, through study and keeping an open mind, and guarding against my own prejudice, have ended as flat earth theorist.
It sounds like you kept your mind too open. Skepticism is very important.
Ah the ad hominem attack and ranting and a raving. My own view, sure shared by other flat earth's, is that your bombast and anger are actually very good signs indeed. At least for you and those who hold this theory close.
I suspect you are starting to develop cognitive dissonance as you slowly journey towards the truth of the Flat Earth. You are searching for truth ere why would you spend time on this site? I will be waiting to give you warm greetings when you finally agree that the Flat Earth is a simple and elegant theory for what we observe every day.
As for my language and corresponding choice or words I would simply say that I am a product of my education and time, as, unfortunately, are you and some of your compatriots. I find it hard to follow words like "dodge" when used in relation to ideas.
I also simply cannot imagine hurling a vituperative at an opponent in a debate. If that were to have happened whilst a student, at least at the schools I am aware of, I am fairly certain it would have ended in expulsion.
Perhaps this lashing out exhibited by the rounders on this board is a natural product of the rapidly degenerating American culture (already degenerated in the mid 20th century) as we sail into the 21st century- both nasty and brutish. It appears that your choice for President is betwixt a Ninny and a Fascist so I should not be surprised to see the same behavior presented on this fair board. OF course I am assuming that you are an American based your language and I do admit it is but a guess.
My journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?” Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
Based on what is admittedly a small sample size of comments I have inferred that most “helios” (as I will refer to those who think the earth orbits the sun) believe that Flat Earthers (Fes) are uneducated and ignorant. This indeed may be true- since I have no way of really knowing the bonafides of those FEs on the board, or elsewhere, (other than those who have published their views and their true identities). I want to make it clear that educated, and uneducated, people can be wrong headed or geniuses in equal proportion. Bill Gates is an uneducated (formally) genius who dropped out of Harvard. So education is no guarantor of either genius or stupidity; to be clear.
My maternal grandfather, born in Wales, was a mining engineer, having passed his technical licensure (including a surveyor’s license) just after the Great War. Whilst working in a mine he developed, and patented, an improved method for sorting coal at the tipple and subsequently founded a company that manufactured such improved equipment. Because of this my mother grew up in much improved circumstances. But although the family's new found wealth improved their conditions they remained stolidly middle class.
My mother, an early beneficiary of the 1944 Educational Act, was one of the first females to attend her public school (public school is the opposite of what is meant in North America) under a quota system established at this school, and others. My father’s father was a Civil Engineer who worked for a large construction company, which, amongst other things, built some of the last great shipyards in Glasgow. My parent’s marriage, and her family’s relative wealth, established the financial wherewithal to send my siblings (and me) to public school. Thus I was fortunate enough to attend a public school- and although interested in literature and the law, being a child of my father was sent from public school, after graduation, to matriculate for engineering degree at the University of Strathclyde.
There I took the normal curriculum for technical studies including organic and inorganic chemistry, calculus, physics (including electricity and magnetism courses), mechanics, basic electrical engineering course, thermo-dynamics, structures, soils, surveying (including learning how to “shoot Polaris” at night for bearings), and other courses. I also loaded up on history and literature for my electives as much as I could- for this was my real love. Once out of university (having graduated) I worked for a while with a large energy company but my heart was not in engineering. Thus I returned to school and completed the course requirements in humanities to allowed me to take the BPTC and and from there I completed my pupilage to become a Barrister. I am old enough so that Latin and logic were still required at the public school I attended and this helped me immensely during my preparation for admission to the Bar Council. In fact I would say that my private reading and public school education made all this very easy when compared to the difficult course work required to earn my engineering degree.
During my course of studies at University I took no greater joy than spending hours of my free time amongst the stacks at the Library. Second only to girls this was my passion. I would roam the dusty stacks in my spare time (between studies) reading and browsing books- especially those from the 17th and 18th century (and those written in Latin). My University, although not amongst the oldest in Great Britain, is still ancient by most measures. I found my self fascinated by obscure works written by the Scholastics and I soon realized that their world view was completely antithetical to those of the modern world (this modern world being 1964 ). One incident that occurred the summer of 1964 is burned in my memory. I was in my maternal Grandfather’s study sitting in a leather arm chair discussing the ideas of the philosopher and lexicographer, Samuel Johnson, one afternoon. I can still remember the sun light streaming through the old fashioned wooden blinds of the windows and lighting up the dust particles in a warm glow. My Grandfather (Great Papa to me) gave me a quizzical look and said, right out of the blue, “You do KNOW that the earth is NOT a globe, Richard?”
I actually had no response to that unprovoked question other than thinking “well the old gentleman is in his dotage and his brain has finally untracked itself”. But he rummaged amongst the stacks of books littering his desk, and the floor beside it, and handed me a well worn green leather bound book with the title “The Earth is Not a Globe”. “Here”, he said, pushing it towards me, “read this and think upon what it says and it will place your engineering studies in an entire new light.”
I wish I could say that I read it immediately- but being young and foolish I did not. It lingered on my bookshelf for a number of years- until one day after I had been accepted to the bar, about a year after my grandfather’s death. I had been thinking about the old man and saw the book sitting in a nook in my study and I begin reading it. It aligned perfectly with ideas that had been swimming in my head, just out of sight, doubts and other interpretation of the phenomena and engineering principles I had studied in school.
Although my professional life was becoming ever busier, I begin studying the matter at night and on the weekends- bringing out my old texts from university days to compare the two. I found myself taking long weekend trips to London to read books, long since forgotten by the present day, written by the scholastics as well as summaries of the great Greek Natural Philosophers. The more I read the more I became convinced that the helio-centric theory became predominate not because of science but because of politics and religious prejudice. It was a tool to further the power and careers of those that backed it. No more and no less. That does not make those who backed Copernicus evil only human. It became evident that the more I studied the pre- Copernicus theories the more I became convinced that those theories were correct.
I started a helio-centrist- but I became, through study and keeping an open mind, and guarding against my own prejudice, have ended as flat earth theorist.
Oh and I forgot this tidbit- one of the rounders who posts here regularly chided me for using Feet/second squared rather than meters per second squared which is one of the most pedantic thing I have read in about a decade. Well, actually not pedantic as I consider it since 32 f/s/s actually the equivalent of 9 m/s/s. I will retract pedantic and substitute the word "silly" in its stead.
My journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when snip................... yada yaday yada.... TL:DR
One incident that occurred the summer of 1964 is burned in my memory. I was in my maternal Grandfather’s study sitting in a leather arm chair discussing the ideas of the philosopher and lexicographer, Samuel Johnson, one afternoon. I can still remember the sun light streaming through the old fashioned wooden blinds of the windows and lighting up the dust particles in a warm glow. My Grandfather (Great Papa to me) gave me a quizzical look and said, right out of the blue, “You do KNOW that the earth is NOT a globe, Richard?”That's why I'm here. Someday, if you don't turn away from the flat earth, you will be in the same place as your grandfather, teaching your children or grandchildren that the earth is flat, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and permanently poisoning their minds with your seeming wisdom. They will grow up to scorn our greatest achievements, and encourage others to do the same, living in constant paranoia of an organization they have no valid reason to distrust. They will be wrong, as you and your grandfather are wrong in ways beyond what either of you could comprehend. I can't afford not to try and set the record straight.
I actually had no response to that unprovoked question other than thinking “well the old gentleman is in his dotage and his brain has finally untracked itself”. But he rummaged amongst the stacks of books littering his desk, and the floor beside it, and handed me a well worn green leather bound book with the title “The Earth is Not a Globe”. “Here”, he said, pushing it towards me, “read this and think upon what it says and it will place your engineering studies in an entire new light.”
I wish I could say that I read it immediately- but being young and foolish I did not. It lingered on my bookshelf for a number of years- until one day after I had been accepted to the bar, about a year after my grandfather’s death. I had been thinking about the old man and saw the book sitting in a nook in my study and I begin reading it. It aligned perfectly with ideas that had been swimming in my head, just out of sight, doubts and other interpretation of the phenomena and engineering principles I had studied in school.
What are your greatest achievements that you speak of?Moon landings, space travel, and exploration of the universe.
What are your greatest achievements that you speak of?Moon landings, space travel, and exploration of the universe.
No, I'm an aerospace engineering student. But since you don't want to believe in what NASA does, and are actively working against them, we believers and supporters will keep the achievements to ourselves.What are your greatest achievements that you speak of?Moon landings, space travel, and exploration of the universe.
You're an astronaut?
What are your greatest achievements that you speak of?Moon landings, space travel, and exploration of the universe.
You're an astronaut?
No, I'm an aerospace engineering student. But since you don't want to believe in what NASA does, and are actively working against them, we believers and supporters will keep the achievements to ourselves.What are your greatest achievements that you speak of?Moon landings, space travel, and exploration of the universe.
You're an astronaut?
You know the story of the little red hen, where she goes through all the work to bake the bread, and then gets to eat it herself because nobody else helped her? You play the figurative fox that tries to accuse the hen of fraud for his own purposes. No bread for you!
I believe what the evidence supports.No, I'm an aerospace engineering student. But since you don't want to believe in what NASA does, and are actively working against them, we believers and supporters will keep the achievements to ourselves.What are your greatest achievements that you speak of?Moon landings, space travel, and exploration of the universe.
You're an astronaut?
You know the story of the little red hen, where she goes through all the work to bake the bread, and then gets to eat it herself because nobody else helped her? You play the figurative fox that tries to accuse the hen of fraud for his own purposes. No bread for you!
You probably just believe anything that your liberal teachers tell you. Perhaps, one day, you could try using your own mind for a change?
I believe what the evidence supports.No, I'm an aerospace engineering student. But since you don't want to believe in what NASA does, and are actively working against them, we believers and supporters will keep the achievements to ourselves.What are your greatest achievements that you speak of?Moon landings, space travel, and exploration of the universe.
You're an astronaut?
You know the story of the little red hen, where she goes through all the work to bake the bread, and then gets to eat it herself because nobody else helped her? You play the figurative fox that tries to accuse the hen of fraud for his own purposes. No bread for you!
You probably just believe anything that your liberal teachers tell you. Perhaps, one day, you could try using your own mind for a change?
You believe whatever your wiki says.
I don't trust them. Of course they would say they're aerospace engineers for credibility. But obviously they never encountered the SPACE part of AeroSPACE engineering.I believe what the evidence supports.No, I'm an aerospace engineering student. But since you don't want to believe in what NASA does, and are actively working against them, we believers and supporters will keep the achievements to ourselves.What are your greatest achievements that you speak of?Moon landings, space travel, and exploration of the universe.
You're an astronaut?
You know the story of the little red hen, where she goes through all the work to bake the bread, and then gets to eat it herself because nobody else helped her? You play the figurative fox that tries to accuse the hen of fraud for his own purposes. No bread for you!
You probably just believe anything that your liberal teachers tell you. Perhaps, one day, you could try using your own mind for a change?
You believe whatever your wiki says.
We have had several aerospace engineers here over the years who were flat Earthers. They saw the light, and gave very good evidence against the globular Earth. Do you think you are special or something?
I stand corrected- your post chiding me for using Imperial rather than metric was both silly AND pedantic[/list]Oh and I forgot this tidbit- one of the rounders who posts here regularly chided me for using Feet/second squared rather than meters per second squared which is one of the most pedantic thing I have read in about a decade. Well, actually not pedantic as I consider it since 32 f/s/s actually the equivalent of 9 m/s/s. I will retract pedantic and substitute the word "silly" in its stead.
- Metric units are used in most of the world - apart from a few old-fashioned countries like the UK (Ireland uses Metric, Ulster uses Imperial) and one the most "old-fashioned" and conservative countries - the "good old" US of A!
- 32 ft/s2 is the equivalent of 9.7536 m/s2 NOT 9 m/s2
- The accepted "standard gravity" is 9.80665 m/s2 or if you live in a back-ward country, 32.174 ft/s2.
. [/b]
.
No self-respecting physicist, engineer, or scientist would be caught dead using ft/s^2. It doesn't matter where you are, you use metric for physics calculations. It's not silly or pedantic; it's good form and correct.I stand corrected- your post chiding me for using Imperial rather than metric was both silly AND pedantic[/list]Oh and I forgot this tidbit- one of the rounders who posts here regularly chided me for using Feet/second squared rather than meters per second squared which is one of the most pedantic thing I have read in about a decade. Well, actually not pedantic as I consider it since 32 f/s/s actually the equivalent of 9 m/s/s. I will retract pedantic and substitute the word "silly" in its stead.
- Metric units are used in most of the world - apart from a few old-fashioned countries like the UK (Ireland uses Metric, Ulster uses Imperial) and one the most "old-fashioned" and conservative countries - the "good old" US of A!
- 32 ft/s2 is the equivalent of 9.7536 m/s2 NOT 9 m/s2
- The accepted "standard gravity" is 9.80665 m/s2 or if you live in a back-ward country, 32.174 ft/s2.
. [/b]
.
I would suggest that we have different definitions of heated. Except for declasse football fans (football is a gentleman's game played by hooligans and rugby is a hooligans game played by gentleman's) it is considered bad form to lose one's temper in a debate. In fact in my grammar school, many years ago we learned a poem by rote which I think is a great help to still the passions which make us all over-wrought:
So you are saying that only Americans can become heated whilst debating? Then you are quite wrong with that.
As to Donald Trump, I still do not understand how he is in the running for president of the United States. You cannot use him to generalize the American public, however, as his unfavorable ratings have gone up, breaching 60% and continuing to rise rather quickly.
Why yes, I do live in America. However, I have been brought up with strong Hispanic roots (and an open, scientific mind I might add) and have rejected several American ideals.
['Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit umquam . "
At what age were you diagnosed with a mental illness? Did you ever receive treatment?
Sure, it's all well and good to keep one's temper during a debate. You know what's more important? Rationality. You have to remember to weigh each side fairly. This means not making things up if you don't have a good explanation. Either find a valid explanation, or concede.I would suggest that we have different definitions of heated. Except for declasse football fans (football is a gentleman's game played by hooligans and rugby is a hooligans game played by gentleman's) it is considered bad form to lose one's temper in a debate. In fact in my grammar school, many years ago we learned a poem by rote which I think is a great help to still the passions which make us all over-wrought:
So you are saying that only Americans can become heated whilst debating? Then you are quite wrong with that.
As to Donald Trump, I still do not understand how he is in the running for president of the United States. You cannot use him to generalize the American public, however, as his unfavorable ratings have gone up, breaching 60% and continuing to rise rather quickly.
Why yes, I do live in America. However, I have been brought up with strong Hispanic roots (and an open, scientific mind I might add) and have rejected several American ideals.
The Temper
"Oh do not lose your temper
For you have not a spare
It appears in abundance with no short supply
But the one the Lord gave you must last 'til you die.
You original temper came with a fine guarantee
But it must last for your lifetime
So use cautiously.
You have other devices
With such fine qualities
They are love, joy, and patience
or peace, self control
Assembled by your Maker and woven into a whole
Or you can chose kindness and goodness
Wrapped in faithfulness
You will find to your pleasure they will clean up any mess.
So use not your temper
Or if so, sparingly.
You will find life is sweeter
And your friends will agree."
I will generalize, because generalities are, in general true, even if not in the particular.
Americans are aggressive and tend to spout off as if expert on everything that comes into ones mind when compared to Brits. A Yank will give you their opinion even if unwanted or unasked. An exercise that a Yank should take would be as follows- take a New York City Subway and then ride the London tube. The difference is startling.
One other thing about language (the English Language) it is said that the "English and Americans are separated by a common language" and I would heartily concur with this statement.
First - I have no paranoia- or at least there is no evidence of any in the posts I have written. If you have evidence of such please paste it into this site and refer to it please. The reason I have no paranoia is because, as the poet wrote "I fear nothing with the sword of truth and light in my hand."That's why I'm here. Someday, if you don't turn away from the flat earth, you will be in the same place as your grandfather, teaching your children or grandchildren that the earth is flat, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and permanently poisoning their minds with your seeming wisdom. They will grow up to scorn our greatest achievements, and encourage others to do the same, living in constant paranoia of an organization they have no valid reason to distrust. They will be wrong, as you and your grandfather are wrong in ways beyond what either of you could comprehend. I can't afford not to try and set the record straight.
This is Simply not true. Look at any surveyors plot on the US or Civil Engineering Drawing or design and you will see that they use English or Imperial measures.No self-respecting physicist, engineer, or scientist would be caught dead using ft/s^2. It doesn't matter where you are, you use metric for physics calculations. It's not silly or pedantic; it's good form and correct.I stand corrected- your post chiding me for using Imperial rather than metric was both silly AND pedantic[/list]Oh and I forgot this tidbit- one of the rounders who posts here regularly chided me for using Feet/second squared rather than meters per second squared which is one of the most pedantic thing I have read in about a decade. Well, actually not pedantic as I consider it since 32 f/s/s actually the equivalent of 9 m/s/s. I will retract pedantic and substitute the word "silly" in its stead.
- Metric units are used in most of the world - apart from a few old-fashioned countries like the UK (Ireland uses Metric, Ulster uses Imperial) and one the most "old-fashioned" and conservative countries - the "good old" US of A!
- 32 ft/s2 is the equivalent of 9.7536 m/s2 NOT 9 m/s2
- The accepted "standard gravity" is 9.80665 m/s2 or if you live in a back-ward country, 32.174 ft/s2.
. [/b]
.
Listen, I mean no disrespect to your grandfather. I understand that you hold him close, and seeing his backstory, I can tell that he was obviously someone to look up to. But that demonstrates how potent and infectious flat earth theory can be: even the best of us are not immune. Just because someone was an exceptional person does not mean that they were always correct. Some of the greatest people we think of were actually deeply racist, sexist, homophobic, or any number of things that we find disgusting today. Von Braun, a personal hero of mine, actually worked with the Nazis. Your grandfather was a great man, who, at some point, neglected to give both sides their fair say, and as a result, gave over fully to the idea that the earth was flat. And he passed that on to you. Admire your heroes for their accomplishments and ideas, but recognize that they, too, are only human.First - I have no paranoia- or at least there is no evidence of any in the posts I have written. If you have evidence of such please paste it into this site and refer to it please. The reason I have no paranoia is because, as the poet wrote "I fear nothing with the sword of truth and light in my hand."That's why I'm here. Someday, if you don't turn away from the flat earth, you will be in the same place as your grandfather, teaching your children or grandchildren that the earth is flat, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and permanently poisoning their minds with your seeming wisdom. They will grow up to scorn our greatest achievements, and encourage others to do the same, living in constant paranoia of an organization they have no valid reason to distrust. They will be wrong, as you and your grandfather are wrong in ways beyond what either of you could comprehend. I can't afford not to try and set the record straight.
Let me say in all humility that I have nothing to boast or brag about with regards to my own achievements. My parents did all they could to prepare me (and subject to the human condition they made mistakes in rearing me; but blessedly few). However when you refer to my Grandfather and trying to save future generations from his "poisonous" knowledge I judge you lacking in credentials and standing to say such.
My grandfather started life in a Welsh coal mine at the age of 8 gathering coal in tubs. He was lowered via a bucket into a deep mine shaft and sent pulling a tub, on a track. into the crevices. The mine owners favored small children because they the could squeeze into small coal seams that adults could not get fit into. Accidents were common and included flooding, cave ins and explosions. These accidents were all to common and a visit to these old mining town's graveyards would show you the number of young who died whilst working for less than a shilling a day. However my grandfather's personality, despite these trials, was ebullient and his mind brilliant and creative. He had a mechanical aptitude bordered on genius or perhaps strayed over that border. According to a story he told me one afternoon after his shift (for he worked a 12 hour shift that ended at noon)- the conveyor on the tipple broke. This made it impossible to move the coal to the waiting railway lorries. Like a monkey he scampered up it and had the foreman throw him some tools. Within 10 minutes fixed the problem before you could say "Jack be Quick". The foreman took notice of this an pulled him out of the "scamper work" as it was called. Eventually at age 15 he was leading the mine repair team and, making friends with the head mine engineer,, begin learning to use the surveyors transit as work on the mines expanded. He was apparently so engaging that the owner of the mine allowed him to sit for his technical licensure and earn his a surveyor.'s license Along the way he devised a better mechanical method for sorting coal (important in those days since the higher grade of coal was sold for home heating earnings the mine higher profits) and had enough sense (and had saved enough money) to apply for a patent. He learned to read by attending Methodist Sunday School each week and honed those skills by reading technical manuals (relating to coal production) at night; apparently subsiding on less than three hours of sleep per night (a habit that persisted until the day he died).
His acumen was so impressive that four mine owners invested in his new enterprise which he started at age 20 to manufacture this new sorting apparatus and by age 25 his company employed over 200 people with enough annual turnover and profits to make him wealthy (a relative term I must admit). His own regret was his own lack of formal educational and he insisted that his daughter (his only issue) and grand children (that would include me) receive the finest education possible. This in a time when women were considered fit only for laughing and batting their eyes and having babies. His home (now sadly out of the family due to the Inland Revenue Services demand that exorbitant Estate Taxes be paid) had a library (which I mentioned earlier) that was full to the brim with volumes on every subject. How I loved that room with the shelves overflowing with tomes and stacks of papers and books laying haphazardly everywhere.
I assume your moniker as "student" is correct and that your age, most probably, is under one score. Youth has the habit over overestimating their knowledge and import. There is nothing wrong with this, it is simply a truism. But having said this I suspect you would do better than to call my grandfather's knowledge poison since he had accomplished more at the age of 25 than you, or most people, especially given his humble starting circumstances. I say this humbly knowing that my own accomplishments pale next to his.
I would suggest that we have different definitions of heated. Except for declasse football fans (football is a gentleman's game played by hooligans and rugby is a hooligans game played by gentlemen) it is considered bad form to lose one's temper in a debate. In fact in my grammar school, many years ago we learned a poem by rote which I think is a great help to still the passions which make us all over-wrought:
So you are saying that only Americans can become heated whilst debating? Then you are quite wrong with that.
As to Donald Trump, I still do not understand how he is in the running for president of the United States. You cannot use him to generalize the American public, however, as his unfavorable ratings have gone up, breaching 60% and continuing to rise rather quickly.
Why yes, I do live in America. However, I have been brought up with strong Hispanic roots (and an open, scientific mind I might add) and have rejected several American ideals.
The Temper
"Oh do not lose your temper
For you have not a spare
It appears in abundance with no short supply
But the one the Lord gave you must last 'til you die.
You original temper came with a fine guarantee
But it must last for your lifetime
So use cautiously.
You have other devices
With such fine qualities
They are love, joy, and patience
or peace, self control
Assembled by your Maker and woven into a whole
Or you can chose kindness and goodness
Wrapped in faithfulness
You will find to your pleasure they will clean up any mess.
So use not your temper
Or if so, sparingly.
You will find life is sweeter
And your friends will agree."
I will generalize, because generalities are, in general true, even if not in the particular.
Americans are aggressive and tend to spout off as if expert on everything that comes into ones mind when compared to Brits. A Yank will give you their opinion even if unwanted or unasked. An exercise that a Yank should take would be as follows- take a New York City Subway and then ride the London tube. The difference is startling.
One other thing about language (the English Language) it is said that the "English and Americans are separated by a common language" and I would heartily concur with this statement.
I suspect that Sir Richard may well be posting from the 19th century.To quote the Bard
Thank you for the very kind post. It demonstrates that we can disagree vehemently yet treat each other with respect. Thank you very sincerely for those comments.Listen, I mean no disrespect to your grandfather. I understand that you hold him close, and seeing his backstory, I can tell that he was obviously someone to look up to. But that demonstrates how potent and infectious flat earth theory can be: even the best of us are not immune. Just because someone was an exceptional person does not mean that they were always correct. Some of the greatest people we think of were actually deeply racist, sexist, homophobic, or any number of things that we find disgusting today. Von Braun, a personal hero of mine, actually worked with the Nazis. Your grandfather was a great man, who, at some point, neglected to give both sides their fair say, and as a result, gave over fully to the idea that the earth was flat. And he passed that on to you. Admire your heroes for their accomplishments and ideas, but recognize that they, too, are only human.First - I have no paranoia- or at least there is no evidence of any in the posts I have written. If you have evidence of such please paste it into this site and refer to it please. The reason I have no paranoia is because, as the poet wrote "I fear nothing with the sword of truth and light in my hand."That's why I'm here. Someday, if you don't turn away from the flat earth, you will be in the same place as your grandfather, teaching your children or grandchildren that the earth is flat, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and permanently poisoning their minds with your seeming wisdom. They will grow up to scorn our greatest achievements, and encourage others to do the same, living in constant paranoia of an organization they have no valid reason to distrust. They will be wrong, as you and your grandfather are wrong in ways beyond what either of you could comprehend. I can't afford not to try and set the record straight.
Let me say in all humility that I have nothing to boast or brag about with regards to my own achievements. My parents did all they could to prepare me (and subject to the human condition they made mistakes in rearing me; but blessedly few). However when you refer to my Grandfather and trying to save future generations from his "poisonous" knowledge I judge you lacking in credentials and standing to say such.
My grandfather started life in a Welsh coal mine at the age of 8 gathering coal in tubs. He was lowered via a bucket into a deep mine shaft and sent pulling a tub, on a track. into the crevices. The mine owners favored small children because they the could squeeze into small coal seams that adults could not get fit into. Accidents were common and included flooding, cave ins and explosions. These accidents were all to common and a visit to these old mining town's graveyards would show you the number of young who died whilst working for less than a shilling a day. However my grandfather's personality, despite these trials, was ebullient and his mind brilliant and creative. He had a mechanical aptitude bordered on genius or perhaps strayed over that border. According to a story he told me one afternoon after his shift (for he worked a 12 hour shift that ended at noon)- the conveyor on the tipple broke. This made it impossible to move the coal to the waiting railway lorries. Like a monkey he scampered up it and had the foreman throw him some tools. Within 10 minutes fixed the problem before you could say "Jack be Quick". The foreman took notice of this an pulled him out of the "scamper work" as it was called. Eventually at age 15 he was leading the mine repair team and, making friends with the head mine engineer,, begin learning to use the surveyors transit as work on the mines expanded. He was apparently so engaging that the owner of the mine allowed him to sit for his technical licensure and earn his a surveyor.'s license Along the way he devised a better mechanical method for sorting coal (important in those days since the higher grade of coal was sold for home heating earnings the mine higher profits) and had enough sense (and had saved enough money) to apply for a patent. He learned to read by attending Methodist Sunday School each week and honed those skills by reading technical manuals (relating to coal production) at night; apparently subsiding on less than three hours of sleep per night (a habit that persisted until the day he died).
His acumen was so impressive that four mine owners invested in his new enterprise which he started at age 20 to manufacture this new sorting apparatus and by age 25 his company employed over 200 people with enough annual turnover and profits to make him wealthy (a relative term I must admit). His own regret was his own lack of formal educational and he insisted that his daughter (his only issue) and grand children (that would include me) receive the finest education possible. This in a time when women were considered fit only for laughing and batting their eyes and having babies. His home (now sadly out of the family due to the Inland Revenue Services demand that exorbitant Estate Taxes be paid) had a library (which I mentioned earlier) that was full to the brim with volumes on every subject. How I loved that room with the shelves overflowing with tomes and stacks of papers and books laying haphazardly everywhere.
I assume your moniker as "student" is correct and that your age, most probably, is under one score. Youth has the habit over overestimating their knowledge and import. There is nothing wrong with this, it is simply a truism. But having said this I suspect you would do better than to call my grandfather's knowledge poison since he had accomplished more at the age of 25 than you, or most people, especially given his humble starting circumstances. I say this humbly knowing that my own accomplishments pale next to his.
Sir Richard,You speak with the a surety of one who has yet to be tested in life. I would suggest a very fine contemporary book (there are few books written after 1957 or so that I would highly recommend- but this is one) entitled:
I'm not going to disparage your world view, it's you opinion and you are entitled to think what you like. I found you story way too twee, and I think it's a product of your delusional state of mind that you probably genuinely believe your own stories.
News flash, the earth is not flat, never has been. Ptolemy ( a famous geocentrist) never believed the earth to be flat. You can argue heliocentric vs geocentric, and ultimately it doesn't change the relative motions of the sun earth and the planets. Either one will do the same job. Occams Razor prefers heliocentric.
I encourage you to continue your research, be sure to let us know it you find conclusive proof of a flat earth.
Sir Richard,This could have been well said of me (Born in the 20th Century but a Victorian in both temperament and outlook) I do admit freely:
... it's you opinion and you are entitled to think what you like. I found you story way too twee, and I think it's a product of your delusional state of mind that you probably genuinely believe your own stories.
We can learn many things to a certain degree of certainty. After a certain point of certainty, the scientific community certainly accepts certain things as certain for the sake of simplicity.You would do well to purchase the book mentioned afore, used for a nice price, and read it most carefully.
We can learn many things to a certain degree of certainty. After a certain point of certainty, the scientific community certainly accepts certain things as certain for the sake of simplicity.You would do well to purchase the book mentioned afore, used for a nice price, and read it most carefully.
My journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?” Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
Sir Richard,You speak with the a surety of one who has yet to be tested in life. I would suggest a very fine contemporary book (there are few books written after 1957 or so that I would highly recommend- but this is one) entitled:
I'm not going to disparage your world view, it's you opinion and you are entitled to think what you like. I found you story way too twee, and I think it's a product of your delusional state of mind that you probably genuinely believe your own stories.
News flash, the earth is not flat, never has been. Ptolemy ( a famous geocentrist) never believed the earth to be flat. You can argue heliocentric vs geocentric, and ultimately it doesn't change the relative motions of the sun earth and the planets. Either one will do the same job. Occams Razor prefers heliocentric.
I encourage you to continue your research, be sure to let us know it you find conclusive proof of a flat earth.
"Your Deceptive Mind" by Professor Steven Novella MD. a fellow at Yale University and apparently, a neuro-surgeon of some renown in the United States.
The book begins with Aristotle and really explores "what can we know?" It turns out we can know NOTHING, with any certainty at all. The book ends at the same place it begins... with Aristotle. A must read book for many on this board who are enthralled with the 'certainty of science" who do not realize that their "brains" are not reliable- not at all and cognition of this is the first step in curing the "Chronic Disease of certainty" so rampant here and other places beside.
My journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?” Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
In defense of the heliocentric Point of view I propose a crude model where we use a soccer field place a lantern in center field the light is omni directional, elevate the lantern to I level. We mark 12 points in the fashion of a clock face from the radius of centerfield to edge the field each mark representing the months of the year.
1. the lantern represents Player one the sun.
2. you the earth will be player two starting on one of the points, to have a 24 hour day, you rotate in place, night time is when you are facing away from the lantern. day time is when you are facing the lantern. At night as you face away from the lantern at each point you are looking at a different set of bleachers, that represent the zodiac.
3. Player three will be a soccer ball, Mark the ball with a face, the face will always face you, this will represent the moon. Holding the ball in your outstretched hand, as the moon is seen in the daylight Time as often as it is seen in the nighttime if you look for it. Facing the lantern
move the ball from right to left watching the lights cast upon the ball, this being the phases of the Moon as seen during the daytime, to have a solar eclipse, move the ball directly in front of the lantern. At night facing away from the lantern Holy the ball out stretched moving it to right to left watching the light on the ball, you will see the phases on the ball representing the phases of the Moon. now you can move ball to a place where your head cast a shadow on the ball, hence a lunar eclipse.
This can be repeated at each point, but I do not see that being necessary but you should at least go to each point and do one day.
Now for the flat Earth, I lay myself down on the field just outside the center circle. As I do not know how the flat Earth works. I will leave it to you, to put it the details.
To have a believable model you must have the causes of the eclipses both solar and lunar, the changes from day tonight, changes of The zodiac, and the phases of the Moon. As I have represented with my crewed model.
Are you up to the challenge?
It seems you are describing football and a most dizzying analogy. Simply put the aether rotatesMy journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?” Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
In defense of the heliocentric Point of view I propose a crude model where we use a soccer field place a lantern in center field the light is omni directional, elevate the lantern to I level. We mark 12 points in the fashion of a clock face from the radius of centerfield to edge the field each mark representing the months of the year.
1. the lantern represents Player one the sun.
2. you the earth will be player two starting on one of the points, to have a 24 hour day, you rotate in place, night time is when you are facing away from the lantern. day time is when you are facing the lantern. At night as you face away from the lantern at each point you are looking at a different set of bleachers, that represent the zodiac.
3. Player three will be a soccer ball, Mark the ball with a face, the face will always face you, this will represent the moon. Holding the ball in your outstretched hand, as the moon is seen in the daylight Time as often as it is seen in the nighttime if you look for it. Facing the lantern
move the ball from right to left watching the lights cast upon the ball, this being the phases of the Moon as seen during the daytime, to have a solar eclipse, move the ball directly in front of the lantern. At night facing away from the lantern Holy the ball out stretched moving it to right to left watching the light on the ball, you will see the phases on the ball representing the phases of the Moon. now you can move ball to a place where your head cast a shadow on the ball, hence a lunar eclipse.
This can be repeated at each point, but I do not see that being necessary but you should at least go to each point and do one day.
Now for the flat Earth, I lay myself down on the field just outside the center circle. As I do not know how the flat Earth works. I will leave it to you, to put it the details.
To have a believable model you must have the causes of the eclipses both solar and lunar, the changes from day tonight, changes of The zodiac, and the phases of the Moon. As I have represented with my crewed model.
Are you up to the challenge?
I can only assume that you missed this, can you see how it works?
It seems you are describing football and a most dizzying analogy. Simply put the aether rotatesMy journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?” Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
In defense of the heliocentric Point of view I propose a crude model where we use a soccer field place a lantern in center field the light is omni directional, elevate the lantern to I level. We mark 12 points in the fashion of a clock face from the radius of centerfield to edge the field each mark representing the months of the year.
1. the lantern represents Player one the sun.
2. you the earth will be player two starting on one of the points, to have a 24 hour day, you rotate in place, night time is when you are facing away from the lantern. day time is when you are facing the lantern. At night as you face away from the lantern at each point you are looking at a different set of bleachers, that represent the zodiac.
3. Player three will be a soccer ball, Mark the ball with a face, the face will always face you, this will represent the moon. Holding the ball in your outstretched hand, as the moon is seen in the daylight Time as often as it is seen in the nighttime if you look for it. Facing the lantern
move the ball from right to left watching the lights cast upon the ball, this being the phases of the Moon as seen during the daytime, to have a solar eclipse, move the ball directly in front of the lantern. At night facing away from the lantern Holy the ball out stretched moving it to right to left watching the light on the ball, you will see the phases on the ball representing the phases of the Moon. now you can move ball to a place where your head cast a shadow on the ball, hence a lunar eclipse.
This can be repeated at each point, but I do not see that being necessary but you should at least go to each point and do one day.
Now for the flat Earth, I lay myself down on the field just outside the center circle. As I do not know how the flat Earth works. I will leave it to you, to put it the details.
To have a believable model you must have the causes of the eclipses both solar and lunar, the changes from day tonight, changes of The zodiac, and the phases of the Moon. As I have represented with my crewed model.
Are you up to the challenge?
I can only assume that you missed this, can you see how it works?
Certainly but rather than plough this ground for the 1,000 th time on the entire theory why don't you first read through the wiki on the site and then focus on aspect to debate. You are asking me to eat six main courses at once which will be neither pleasurable nor possible. The, admittedly, unwritten convention on the Debate section is that we debate one thing at a time.
So why don't you pick one phenomena or aspect of either the helio-centric theory or the FE theory and lets us discuss it in the particulars and then in how it fits, or does not.
Sir Richard,You speak with the a surety of one who has yet to be tested in life. I would suggest a very fine contemporary book (there are few books written after 1957 or so that I would highly recommend- but this is one) entitled:
I'm not going to disparage your world view, it's you opinion and you are entitled to think what you like. I found you story way too twee, and I think it's a product of your delusional state of mind that you probably genuinely believe your own stories.
News flash, the earth is not flat, never has been. Ptolemy ( a famous geocentrist) never believed the earth to be flat. You can argue heliocentric vs geocentric, and ultimately it doesn't change the relative motions of the sun earth and the planets. Either one will do the same job. Occams Razor prefers heliocentric.
I encourage you to continue your research, be sure to let us know it you find conclusive proof of a flat earth.
"Your Deceptive Mind" by Professor Steven Novella MD. a fellow at Yale University and apparently, a neuro-surgeon of some renown in the United States.
The book begins with Aristotle and really explores "what can we know?" It turns out we can know NOTHING, with any certainty at all. The book ends at the same place it begins... with Aristotle. A must read book for many on this board who are enthralled with the 'certainty of science" who do not realize that their "brains" are not reliable- not at all and cognition of this is the first step in curing the "Chronic Disease of certainty" so rampant here and other places beside.
I have just one question for you, do you believe in objective reality?
PS. What was your summation of chapters 19 and 20 of "Your Deceptive MInd"?
So why don't you pick one phenomena or aspect of either the helio-centric theory or the FE theory and lets us discuss it in the particulars and then in how it fits, or does not.Without resorting to hand wavey explanations such as "it's the aether wot done it", explain how sunsets occur on a flat earth. Let's have some detail, rather than your usual rambling about your family and how modern technology apparently baffles you.
Yes I believe in objective reality. Of course that begs the question, as we say, of what is objective reality. I shall start another thread on this subject alone of course.Sir Richard,You speak with the a surety of one who has yet to be tested in life. I would suggest a very fine contemporary book (there are few books written after 1957 or so that I would highly recommend- but this is one) entitled:
I'm not going to disparage your world view, it's you opinion and you are entitled to think what you like. I found you story way too twee, and I think it's a product of your delusional state of mind that you probably genuinely believe your own stories.
News flash, the earth is not flat, never has been. Ptolemy ( a famous geocentrist) never believed the earth to be flat. You can argue heliocentric vs geocentric, and ultimately it doesn't change the relative motions of the sun earth and the planets. Either one will do the same job. Occams Razor prefers heliocentric.
I encourage you to continue your research, be sure to let us know it you find conclusive proof of a flat earth.
"Your Deceptive Mind" by Professor Steven Novella MD. a fellow at Yale University and apparently, a neuro-surgeon of some renown in the United States.
The book begins with Aristotle and really explores "what can we know?" It turns out we can know NOTHING, with any certainty at all. The book ends at the same place it begins... with Aristotle. A must read book for many on this board who are enthralled with the 'certainty of science" who do not realize that their "brains" are not reliable- not at all and cognition of this is the first step in curing the "Chronic Disease of certainty" so rampant here and other places beside.
I have just one question for you, do you believe in objective reality?
PS. What was your summation of chapters 19 and 20 of "Your Deceptive MInd"?
I'll take the failure to answer as a no. Then follow up with another question, have you actually read and understood the book you are referencing?
Why do you think modern technology baffles me. I have made no such statement nor do I hold such sentiment. Your habit of putting words in the mouths of your debate opponents (or more aptly typing words into the key board of ones opponents) does you, nor your arguments, no credit. This is tendency I have observed, for which I am now making a general statement about, is only exceeded by your lack of willingness to understand the exact meaning of words/phrases you and others use, and the related tendency of making an argument against propositions that have not been offered nor even considered by your opponent (perhaps you might do a Google Internet Search of the term "Straw man argument for a fuller explanation of my point."So why don't you pick one phenomena or aspect of either the helio-centric theory or the FE theory and lets us discuss it in the particulars and then in how it fits, or does not.Without resorting to hand wavey explanations such as "it's the aether wot done it", explain how sunsets occur on a flat earth. Let's have some detail, rather than your usual rambling about your family and how modern technology apparently baffles you.
Why do you think.... ****waffle waffle waffle****[/i]
Without resorting to hand wavey explanations such as "it's the aether wot done it", explain how sunsets occur on a flat earth
First, although fully retired, I have responsibilities other than one of checking this forum every odd minute to determine whether you have asked a question that must be answered post haste.Why do you think.... ****waffle waffle waffle****[/i]
Duly noted how you didn't even attempt to answer a simple direct question:QuoteWithout resorting to hand wavey explanations such as "it's the aether wot done it", explain how sunsets occur on a flat earth
Instead we get endless blathering. It sounds like you're trying to espouse a philosophy of some kind, not explain how your FE 'model' works. If so, kindly take your pretentious facade to the Complete Nonsense sub-forum.
I think modern technology baffles you, because you keep going on about it. You say that you can't operate a scanner without your daughter being present.Why do you think modern technology baffles me.So why don't you pick one phenomena or aspect of either the helio-centric theory or the FE theory and lets us discuss it in the particulars and then in how it fits, or does not.Without resorting to hand wavey explanations such as "it's the aether wot done it", explain how sunsets occur on a flat earth. Let's have some detail, rather than your usual rambling about your family and how modern technology apparently baffles you.
blah...blah...blah..blah...copy paste....
tl&dr
First, although full retired,You are full something, I'll give you that.
“Although the Sun is at all times above and parallel to the Earth’s surface......We are all familiar with "Earth Not a Globe" here, there is no need to copy pasta Rowbotham's nonsense. How about you try to debate in your own words? He explanation does not tell us why anything should ever drop below the horizon. Even at 10,000 miles away, the sun would still be clearly 17 degrees above the horizon. How far away do you think it has to be to be before it actually drops below it?
...more copy paste
I have explained such at least 30 times on this fair board.I think modern technology baffles you, because you keep going on about it. You say that you can't operate a scanner without your daughter being present.Why do you think modern technology baffles me.So why don't you pick one phenomena or aspect of either the helio-centric theory or the FE theory and lets us discuss it in the particulars and then in how it fits, or does not.Without resorting to hand wavey explanations such as "it's the aether wot done it", explain how sunsets occur on a flat earth. Let's have some detail, rather than your usual rambling about your family and how modern technology apparently baffles you.
blah...blah...blah..blah...copy paste....
tl&drQuoteFirst, although full retired,You are full something, I'll give you that.Quote“Although the Sun is at all times above and parallel to the Earth’s surface......We are all familiar with "Earth Not a Globe" here, there is no need to copy pasta Rowbotham's nonsense. How about you try to debate in your own words? He explanation does not tell us why anything should ever drop below the horizon. Even at 10,000 miles away, the sun would still be clearly 17 degrees above the horizon. How far away do you think it has to be to be before it actually drops below it?
...more copy paste
What Rowbotham also doesn't explain is how the sun stays the same apparent size all day, whether it is directly overhead or thousands of miles away. Why doesn't the sun get small at sunset? How do you explain this:
(http://www.hoydalsvik.net/astrofoto/sun/sunset_20101201.jpg)
My journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?”
Oh, hello Mr. Big Words! You don't need long words to seem smart, you need good ideas. Just getting that out of the way.
We don't storm and rant about how you challenge academia. The scientific community can be wrong in the theories it holds up, and there are normally rather large storms when said theories are debunked.
However, we are in a different situation. You are not challenging academia, rather you are challenging massive mounds of evidence which stands against your position (which you manage to dodge in some way or another.Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
No. It sounds like you're giving instructions of how to shackle yourself into a small worldview and ignorance.Based on what is admittedly a small sample size of comments I have inferred that most “helios” (as I will refer to those who think the earth orbits the sun) believe that Flat Earthers (Fes) are uneducated and ignorant. This indeed may be true- since I have no way of really knowing the bonafides of those FEs on the board, or elsewhere, (other than those who have published their views and their true identities). I want to make it clear that educated, and uneducated, people can be wrong headed or geniuses in equal proportion. Bill Gates is an uneducated (formally) genius who dropped out of Harvard. So education is no guarantor of either genius or stupidity; to be clear.
The reason we believe you are ignorant is that you ignore centuries of work and large amounts of evidence which point towards a round earth.
well said there are very many scholastics who absolutely support, in the most unequivocal way, the theory of the flat earth.My journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?”
Oh, hello Mr. Big Words! You don't need long words to seem smart, you need good ideas. Just getting that out of the way.
We don't storm and rant about how you challenge academia. The scientific community can be wrong in the theories it holds up, and there are normally rather large storms when said theories are debunked.
However, we are in a different situation. You are not challenging academia, rather you are challenging massive mounds of evidence which stands against your position (which you manage to dodge in some way or another.Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
No. It sounds like you're giving instructions of how to shackle yourself into a small worldview and ignorance.Based on what is admittedly a small sample size of comments I have inferred that most “helios” (as I will refer to those who think the earth orbits the sun) believe that Flat Earthers (Fes) are uneducated and ignorant. This indeed may be true- since I have no way of really knowing the bonafides of those FEs on the board, or elsewhere, (other than those who have published their views and their true identities). I want to make it clear that educated, and uneducated, people can be wrong headed or geniuses in equal proportion. Bill Gates is an uneducated (formally) genius who dropped out of Harvard. So education is no guarantor of either genius or stupidity; to be clear.
The reason we believe you are ignorant is that you ignore centuries of work and large amounts of evidence which point towards a round earth.
Yet, on the other hand, you refuse centuries of pre-Copernican studies.
The kingdom of heavens will be yours.
I think modern technology baffles you, because you keep going on about it. You say that you can't operate a scanner without your daughter being present.Why do you think modern technology baffles me.So why don't you pick one phenomena or aspect of either the helio-centric theory or the FE theory and lets us discuss it in the particulars and then in how it fits, or does not.Without resorting to hand wavey explanations such as "it's the aether wot done it", explain how sunsets occur on a flat earth. Let's have some detail, rather than your usual rambling about your family and how modern technology apparently baffles you.
blah...blah...blah..blah...copy paste....
tl&drQuoteFirst, although full retired,You are full something, I'll give you that.Quote“Although the Sun is at all times above and parallel to the Earth’s surface......We are all familiar with "Earth Not a Globe" here, there is no need to copy pasta Rowbotham's nonsense. How about you try to debate in your own words? He explanation does not tell us why anything should ever drop below the horizon. Even at 10,000 miles away, the sun would still be clearly 17 degrees above the horizon. How far away do you think it has to be to be before it actually drops below it?
...more copy paste
What Rowbotham also doesn't explain is how the sun stays the same apparent size all day, whether it is directly overhead or thousands of miles away. Why doesn't the sun get small at sunset? How do you explain this:
(http://www.hoydalsvik.net/astrofoto/sun/sunset_20101201.jpg)
I have explained such at least 30 times on this fair board.If by "30 times" you mean "never", then that would be accurate.
You really must read Johnson's "Life of Savage" it would be of great help to you in your life I can assure you. Based on what I have read of your writings here it really would be a good tonic for you.I have explained such at least 30 times on this fair board.If by "30 times" you mean "never", then that would be accurate.
Most of your posts are just copy and paste blather, with little attempt to explain anything at all. If you can't answer the question, it is acceptable to just say "I don't know".
My journey to the Flat Earth
Our human frailty displays most itself vituperatively when we are confronted with ideas that contradict those closely beliefs that we have invested our lives in. This frailty is on display daily at the Flat Earth Society Forum as helio-centrists storm and rant at those who dare challenge mainstream academia. One question that seem to be asked over and over is “how can you believe such (expletive deleted)?”
Oh, hello Mr. Big Words! You don't need long words to seem smart, you need good ideas. Just getting that out of the way.
We don't storm and rant about how you challenge academia. The scientific community can be wrong in the theories it holds up, and there are normally rather large storms when said theories are debunked.
However, we are in a different situation. You are not challenging academia, rather you are challenging massive mounds of evidence which stands against your position (which you manage to dodge in some way or another.Although I am certain that this question is merely rhetorical for most I am going to attempt to answer it for the minority who are sincerely interested in how one makes the journey form helio-centrist ( a “helio”) to a flat earther (a “FE”). Perhaps this will assist those who earnestly desire to break off the shackles of ignorance and see the world as it truly is!
No. It sounds like you're giving instructions of how to shackle yourself into a small worldview and ignorance.Based on what is admittedly a small sample size of comments I have inferred that most “helios” (as I will refer to those who think the earth orbits the sun) believe that Flat Earthers (Fes) are uneducated and ignorant. This indeed may be true- since I have no way of really knowing the bonafides of those FEs on the board, or elsewhere, (other than those who have published their views and their true identities). I want to make it clear that educated, and uneducated, people can be wrong headed or geniuses in equal proportion. Bill Gates is an uneducated (formally) genius who dropped out of Harvard. So education is no guarantor of either genius or stupidity; to be clear.
The reason we believe you are ignorant is that you ignore centuries of work and large amounts of evidence which point towards a round earth.
Yet, on the other hand, you refuse centuries of pre-Copernican studies.
The kingdom of heavens will be yours.
Actually I have answered this question myself.No, you just continually avoid it. Like you're doing now....
In addition it is addressed in the wiki on this fair site if one but took the trouble to do a bit of work.Do your own work.
How do "Pre-Copernican" studies help when we already have Satellites, the ISS, 50 years of space travel...we know the earth is round so I'm not exactly sure what your "ancient" knowledge could shed any light on this argument. However there are many of the ancient scientists and knowledge seekers were well aware that the earth was round and that it revolved around the sun...go figure...You say "we" but as you well know that does not include myself and others so there most likely a better way to express your sentiment rather than relying on what "we know", as if "we knowing it" proves that something is so. This violates basic rules of logical argument that is the reliance on "commonly held beliefs" to make such a belief true.
Yes there were some ancient natural philosophers the supported the round earth spinning globe theory but there were also many who did not.
| You say "some ancient natural philosophers the supported the round earth spinning globe theory". I will agree that until after Copernicus most (at least Western) almost all "natural philosophers" took the earth as the centre of the universe. That was an "Article of Faith" in "The Church" (the Roman Catholic Church). But the shape of the earth is quite another matter! While the shape of the earth was never an "Article of Faith" and in the first couple of centuries there was considerable debate, the globe earth was generally accepted. Even in the Islamic world around 1,000 AD there were certainly prominent people that took it for granted that the earth is a globe. One such is Abu Rayhan al-Biruni referred to in AL BIRUNI’S MEASUREMENT ON THE EARTH (https://albasairislamicmedia.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/al-birunis-measurement-on-the-earth/). He not only "measured the earth", but gave his theories on the moon phases and lunar eclipses. See picture on right: For explanation of text etc, look at Abū Rayḥān al-Bīrūnī (973–1048) (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lunar_eclipse_al-Biruni.jpg) | (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Lunar_eclipse_al-Biruni.jpg/800px-Lunar_eclipse_al-Biruni.jpg) |
I believe what the evidence supports.No, I'm an aerospace engineering student. But since you don't want to believe in what NASA does, and are actively working against them, we believers and supporters will keep the achievements to ourselves.What are your greatest achievements that you speak of?Moon landings, space travel, and exploration of the universe.
You're an astronaut?
You know the story of the little red hen, where she goes through all the work to bake the bread, and then gets to eat it herself because nobody else helped her? You play the figurative fox that tries to accuse the hen of fraud for his own purposes. No bread for you!
You probably just believe anything that your liberal teachers tell you. Perhaps, one day, you could try using your own mind for a change?
You believe whatever your wiki says.
We have had several aerospace engineers here over the years who were flat Earthers. They saw the light, and gave very good evidence against the globular Earth. Do you think you are special or something?
Why do you think modern technology baffles me. I have made no such statement nor do I hold such sentiment.
Why do you think modern technology baffles me. I have made no such statement nor do I hold such sentiment.
You can't work a scanner.
You know my friend, we get accused of being pedantic and obtuse but Dear God in Heaven I am not sure where these people come up with such statements. My daughter, after years of cajoling me to "join the computer age" purchased for me as a gift, an Apple Mac book computer (and Air Mac) and presented it this past Boxing Day. The entire family (not large but it is mine!) thought this a great sort of joke since I had steadfastly refused to "get on the web" or read books electronically (why should I when I possess two library memberships to two most excellent libraries and get the Times delivered, albeit at an exorbitant charge).Why do you think modern technology baffles me. I have made no such statement nor do I hold such sentiment.
You can't work a scanner.
He said he needed help setting up a scanner, not operating it. ::)
You could make a separate email account and fake name for any sites you don't trust with your real name.My daughter bought my computer with all manner of programs from Microsoft including a program called Microsoft Outlook which contains my email address (this works much like a postal code is my understanding). I see no mechanism (granted I would apparently have to go to the Microsoft site) to install a secondary email address other than the one that I have with the Outlook program.
It'd be more like renting a second box at a postal office. The two addresses are separate, but you can still receive mail in both.You could make a separate email account and fake name for any sites you don't trust with your real name.My daughter bought my computer with all manner of programs from Microsoft including a program called Microsoft Outlook which contains my email address (this works much like a postal code is my understanding). I see no mechanism (granted I would apparently have to go to the Microsoft site) to install a secondary email address other than the one that I have with the Outlook program.
I will ask my daughter when she next comes to visit whether I could indeed change my email on the Outlook program. It seems to me it would be akin to changing ones postal address. How would anyone know to forward or send you email. I grant you I get but one or two per day but you see my point I suspect.-
Well my friend, you certainly proved the Bible's Dictum "Let no man despise thy youth".It'd be more like renting a second box at a postal office. The two addresses are separate, but you can still receive mail in both.You could make a separate email account and fake name for any sites you don't trust with your real name.My daughter bought my computer with all manner of programs from Microsoft including a program called Microsoft Outlook which contains my email address (this works much like a postal code is my understanding). I see no mechanism (granted I would apparently have to go to the Microsoft site) to install a secondary email address other than the one that I have with the Outlook program.
I will ask my daughter when she next comes to visit whether I could indeed change my email on the Outlook program. It seems to me it would be akin to changing ones postal address. How would anyone know to forward or send you email. I grant you I get but one or two per day but you see my point I suspect.-
As to Outlook, I do not use that software. I tend to check my email through a browser instead of a separate software.
Well my friend, you certainly proved the Bible's Dictum "Let no man despise thy youth".It'd be more like renting a second box at a postal office. The two addresses are separate, but you can still receive mail in both.You could make a separate email account and fake name for any sites you don't trust with your real name.My daughter bought my computer with all manner of programs from Microsoft including a program called Microsoft Outlook which contains my email address (this works much like a postal code is my understanding). I see no mechanism (granted I would apparently have to go to the Microsoft site) to install a secondary email address other than the one that I have with the Outlook program.
I will ask my daughter when she next comes to visit whether I could indeed change my email on the Outlook program. It seems to me it would be akin to changing ones postal address. How would anyone know to forward or send you email. I grant you I get but one or two per day but you see my point I suspect.-
As to Outlook, I do not use that software. I tend to check my email through a browser instead of a separate software.
How is it possible to check your email through an internet browser? Is this possible with the Outlook program? Could I use the internet browser (I assume by Internet Browser you mean the safari disc that I click on to get to the internet).
What is the approximate cost of this per month do you think (I know it will vary betwixt the US and Britain, but the US cost would be fine)? Although financially I am in a good place, I am no longer earning pounds, but only spending pounds, so you must trust me that this retirement equation changes ones outlook on extra expenses!Well my friend, you certainly proved the Bible's Dictum "Let no man despise thy youth".It'd be more like renting a second box at a postal office. The two addresses are separate, but you can still receive mail in both.You could make a separate email account and fake name for any sites you don't trust with your real name.My daughter bought my computer with all manner of programs from Microsoft including a program called Microsoft Outlook which contains my email address (this works much like a postal code is my understanding). I see no mechanism (granted I would apparently have to go to the Microsoft site) to install a secondary email address other than the one that I have with the Outlook program.
I will ask my daughter when she next comes to visit whether I could indeed change my email on the Outlook program. It seems to me it would be akin to changing ones postal address. How would anyone know to forward or send you email. I grant you I get but one or two per day but you see my point I suspect.-
As to Outlook, I do not use that software. I tend to check my email through a browser instead of a separate software.
How is it possible to check your email through an internet browser? Is this possible with the Outlook program? Could I use the internet browser (I assume by Internet Browser you mean the safari disc that I click on to get to the internet).
There are several websites that offer email hosting services. By far the most popular is GMail, a service provided by google. You go to their website (https://mail.google.com/), create an account, and then sign in.
What is the approximate cost of this per month do you think (I know it will vary betwixt the US and Britain, but the US cost would be fine)? Although financially I am in a good place, I am no longer earning pounds, but only spending pounds, so you must trust me that this retirement equation changes ones outlook on extra expenses!Well my friend, you certainly proved the Bible's Dictum "Let no man despise thy youth".It'd be more like renting a second box at a postal office. The two addresses are separate, but you can still receive mail in both.You could make a separate email account and fake name for any sites you don't trust with your real name.My daughter bought my computer with all manner of programs from Microsoft including a program called Microsoft Outlook which contains my email address (this works much like a postal code is my understanding). I see no mechanism (granted I would apparently have to go to the Microsoft site) to install a secondary email address other than the one that I have with the Outlook program.
I will ask my daughter when she next comes to visit whether I could indeed change my email on the Outlook program. It seems to me it would be akin to changing ones postal address. How would anyone know to forward or send you email. I grant you I get but one or two per day but you see my point I suspect.-
As to Outlook, I do not use that software. I tend to check my email through a browser instead of a separate software.
How is it possible to check your email through an internet browser? Is this possible with the Outlook program? Could I use the internet browser (I assume by Internet Browser you mean the safari disc that I click on to get to the internet).
There are several websites that offer email hosting services. By far the most popular is GMail, a service provided by google. You go to their website (https://mail.google.com/), create an account, and then sign in.
Also I get a bit nervy about exposing my credit card on line after reading some of the horror stories about credit and cheque theft because of Online thieving (although my daughter purchases from Tesco using her computer via the internet with seemingly no problems). I am sure you youngsters get a laugh from us older folks nervousness about this! :)
Thank you for teaching an old dog new tricks.What is the approximate cost of this per month do you think (I know it will vary betwixt the US and Britain, but the US cost would be fine)? Although financially I am in a good place, I am no longer earning pounds, but only spending pounds, so you must trust me that this retirement equation changes ones outlook on extra expenses!Well my friend, you certainly proved the Bible's Dictum "Let no man despise thy youth".It'd be more like renting a second box at a postal office. The two addresses are separate, but you can still receive mail in both.You could make a separate email account and fake name for any sites you don't trust with your real name.My daughter bought my computer with all manner of programs from Microsoft including a program called Microsoft Outlook which contains my email address (this works much like a postal code is my understanding). I see no mechanism (granted I would apparently have to go to the Microsoft site) to install a secondary email address other than the one that I have with the Outlook program.
I will ask my daughter when she next comes to visit whether I could indeed change my email on the Outlook program. It seems to me it would be akin to changing ones postal address. How would anyone know to forward or send you email. I grant you I get but one or two per day but you see my point I suspect.-
As to Outlook, I do not use that software. I tend to check my email through a browser instead of a separate software.
How is it possible to check your email through an internet browser? Is this possible with the Outlook program? Could I use the internet browser (I assume by Internet Browser you mean the safari disc that I click on to get to the internet).
There are several websites that offer email hosting services. By far the most popular is GMail, a service provided by google. You go to their website (https://mail.google.com/), create an account, and then sign in.
Also I get a bit nervy about exposing my credit card on line after reading some of the horror stories about credit and cheque theft because of Online thieving (although my daughter purchases from Tesco using her computer via the internet with seemingly no problems). I am sure you youngsters get a laugh from us older folks nervousness about this! :)
Free! It is supported through small advertisements that may appear from time to time, but these can be easily disabled with an ad-blocker.
EDIT: Yes, my mother's credit-card was recently hacked. Fortunately, our credit company has a special fraud protection program that was able to deal with the fraudulent transactions and return our money.
Just go to gmail.com, click sign up or create an account, and follow the instructions given there.Thank you very kindly. Well it is almost dinner time and tonight, if you care to know, I am having a lovely pastie that I will pop out of the oven in a bit along with a fine Cornish Beer.