The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Q&A => Topic started by: Alex Tomasovich on September 04, 2013, 09:35:40 AM

Title: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Alex Tomasovich on September 04, 2013, 09:35:40 AM
Hey, this question is for people who believe in / are working on the "Antarctica as a Continent (http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/images/c/c2/Altmap.png)" model where the sun, at the equinox, 'shifts gears' from the north pole to the south.

I'm assuming this happens when the sun transitions across the equator--that is, it passes 0° 00' latitude. The vernal equinox of 2015 happens at 10:39 PM UTC on 20 March. However, at that time, the sun is just south of Hawaii at 158° 26' West. On your map, that'd be around here:
(http://i.imgur.com/QWR4LY6.png)

Two hours later the sun is here:
(http://i.imgur.com/H7IbndQ.png)

My question is how does the sun get there? Does it teleport from one side of the globe to the other, or does it quickly zip around the southern circumference? If it's the latter, why don't people in New Zealand notice the sun flying across the sky?

Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Adolf Hipster on September 04, 2013, 01:37:13 PM
It could quickly zip under the earth.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: REphoenix on September 04, 2013, 01:40:59 PM
It could quickly zip under the earth.

Why would it randomly speed up while traveling under the earth?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 01:40:59 PM
It could quickly zip under the earth.

oooooh ok. So maybe it is like this:

UA pushes Earth up and the Sun as well.

The sun goes over the edge and since it doesn't have the Earth in the way anymore to block some part of the effects of UA anymore then the sun is forced to the other side. Sounds ridiculous enough.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Adolf Hipster on September 04, 2013, 01:45:00 PM
It could quickly zip under the earth.

oooooh ok. So maybe it is like this:

UA pushes Earth up and the Sun as well.

The sun goes over the edge and since it doesn't have the Earth in the way anymore to block some part of the effects of UA anymore then the sun is forced to the other side. Sounds ridiculous enough.
Not all of us subscribe to UA. Keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 01:46:47 PM
It could quickly zip under the earth.

oooooh ok. So maybe it is like this:

UA pushes Earth up and the Sun as well.

The sun goes over the edge and since it doesn't have the Earth in the way anymore to block some part of the effects of UA anymore then the sun is forced to the other side. Sounds ridiculous enough.
Not all of us subscribe to UA. Keep that in mind.

It doesn't matter who subscribes to what if it is all false.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: REphoenix on September 04, 2013, 01:47:55 PM
It could quickly zip under the earth.

oooooh ok. So maybe it is like this:

UA pushes Earth up and the Sun as well.

The sun goes over the edge and since it doesn't have the Earth in the way anymore to block some part of the effects of UA anymore then the sun is forced to the other side. Sounds ridiculous enough.
Not all of us subscribe to UA. Keep that in mind.
There really isn't an alternative.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Adolf Hipster on September 04, 2013, 01:48:18 PM
It could quickly zip under the earth.

oooooh ok. So maybe it is like this:

UA pushes Earth up and the Sun as well.

The sun goes over the edge and since it doesn't have the Earth in the way anymore to block some part of the effects of UA anymore then the sun is forced to the other side. Sounds ridiculous enough.
Not all of us subscribe to UA. Keep that in mind.

It doesn't matter who subscribes to what if it is all false.
It is all false? You mean FE theory or?
If so, you don't know that for sure.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: REphoenix on September 04, 2013, 01:49:30 PM
It could quickly zip under the earth.

oooooh ok. So maybe it is like this:

UA pushes Earth up and the Sun as well.

The sun goes over the edge and since it doesn't have the Earth in the way anymore to block some part of the effects of UA anymore then the sun is forced to the other side. Sounds ridiculous enough.
Not all of us subscribe to UA. Keep that in mind.

It doesn't matter who subscribes to what if it is all false.
Now now. Keep it nice.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 01:53:47 PM
Actually, I do know for sure. Look around on these forums. Especially the stuff that has been brought up in the last 2 or 3 days. Not acknowledging it at this point is just laughable. This is a lunatic forum.  ;) :) :D ;D :P ??? :( :'( >:( :o 8) :-X :-* ::) :-[ :-\ >o< :-B
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: REphoenix on September 04, 2013, 01:58:36 PM
Actually, I do know for sure. Look around on these forums. Especially the stuff that has been brought up in the last 2 or 3 days. Not acknowledging it at this point is just laughable. This is a lunatic forum.  ;) :) :D ;D :P ??? :( :'( >:( :o 8) :-X :-* ::) :-[ :-\ >o< :-B
You do have to admit that the quality of posts has gone seriously downhill lately. (Possibly EJ's fault?)
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 02:05:12 PM
You do have to admit that the level of posting has gone seriously downhill lately. (Possibly EJ's fault?)

The level of posting has increased by the RE side while it has simultaneously gone down on the FE side. This is just in the upper fora though. Do you think it is just a coincidence that those same people who would be posting all suddenly seem to be posting exclusively to the lower fora?

I could be wrong but it seems to me that the only one with the balls to challenge stuff (especially some of Alex's posts) is Tom Bishop, but Tom too just disappears after he can't find anything else to go on.

I doubt that this is the first time this has happened. I'm sure smart RE'ers have been here before and the top FE'ers are probably efficient at making convincing arguments to usually get them to give up but I doubt that always happens and I don't doubt this is the first time they haven't had a leg to stand on. They'll just wait til we get bored and go back to our RE lives. Until then they'll wait below.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Adolf Hipster on September 04, 2013, 02:20:07 PM
A lot of us FEers have retreated probably because this forum has quite a few noobs, some trolls, and it gets boring having the same questions/similar questions asked a lot.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 02:24:36 PM
A lot of us FEers have retreated probably because this forum has quite a few noobs, some trolls, and it gets boring having the same questions/similar questions asked a lot.

That's a convenient excuse. If that is true then attempt to contest one of the four newest posts in the debates section.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Adolf Hipster on September 04, 2013, 04:00:59 PM
A lot of us FEers have retreated probably because this forum has quite a few noobs, some trolls, and it gets boring having the same questions/similar questions asked a lot.

That's a convenient excuse. If that is true then attempt to contest one of the four newest posts in the debates section.
That not my field. Sure, I can post in the upper fora, like I am now, but I am not to familiar with the math and science behind it all.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: markjo on September 04, 2013, 05:17:21 PM
My question is how does the sun get there? Does it teleport from one side of the globe to the other, or does it quickly zip around the southern circumference? If it's the latter, why don't people in New Zealand notice the sun flying across the sky?
First of all, the flat earth is a disc, not a globe.  Secondly, some speculate that the higher dimensional aetherific warping of space-time near the edge of the disc causes the the rim to fold back onto itself in such a way that what seems like the western most point is actually connected to the eastern most point.  Sort of like how Pac Man can warp from one side of the maze to the other.  The 2D map looks flat, but a 5D or higher map would show the true nature of how the sun's path above earth is perfectly reasonable.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Pongo on September 04, 2013, 06:58:50 PM
Hey, this question is for people who believe in / are working on the "Antarctica as a Continent (http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/images/c/c2/Altmap.png)" model where the sun, at the equinox, 'shifts gears' from the north pole to the south.

I'm assuming this happens when the sun transitions across the equator--that is, it passes 0° 00' latitude. The vernal equinox of 2015 happens at 10:39 PM UTC on 20 March. However, at that time, the sun is just south of Hawaii at 158° 26' West. On your map, that'd be around here:
(http://i.imgur.com/QWR4LY6.png)

Two hours later the sun is here:
(http://i.imgur.com/H7IbndQ.png)

My question is how does the sun get there? Does it teleport from one side of the globe to the other, or does it quickly zip around the southern circumference? If it's the latter, why don't people in New Zealand notice the sun flying across the sky?

Why do you assume that there is only one sun?  There is more than one planet.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 07:01:00 PM
Hey, this question is for people who believe in / are working on the "Antarctica as a Continent (http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/images/c/c2/Altmap.png)" model where the sun, at the equinox, 'shifts gears' from the north pole to the south.

I'm assuming this happens when the sun transitions across the equator--that is, it passes 0° 00' latitude. The vernal equinox of 2015 happens at 10:39 PM UTC on 20 March. However, at that time, the sun is just south of Hawaii at 158° 26' West. On your map, that'd be around here:
(http://i.imgur.com/QWR4LY6.png)

Two hours later the sun is here:
(http://i.imgur.com/H7IbndQ.png)

My question is how does the sun get there? Does it teleport from one side of the globe to the other, or does it quickly zip around the southern circumference? If it's the latter, why don't people in New Zealand notice the sun flying across the sky?

Why do you assume that there is only one sun?  There is more than one planet.

Are you saying there is more than one sun?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Pongo on September 04, 2013, 07:10:09 PM
Are you saying there is more than one sun?

No, but neither am I saying their isn't.  I'm just wondering why you are assuming such.  It's assumptions like these that plague round-earth science.  In flat-earth science we look at the evidence and make conclusions based on the facts.  We do not make assumptions then try and make the facts fit the conclusion.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 07:13:05 PM
Are you saying there is more than one sun?

No, but neither am I saying their isn't.  I'm just wondering why you are assuming such.  It's assumptions like these that plague round-earth science.  In flat-earth science we look at the evidence and make conclusions based on the facts.  We do not make assumptions then try and make the facts fit the conclusion.

Well its actually a known fact... but go ahead with your blind skepticism. I'm not gonna entertain bull crap like this
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: REphoenix on September 04, 2013, 07:14:10 PM
We only see one sun so assuming that there are two is stupid.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Pongo on September 04, 2013, 07:30:15 PM
We only see one sun so assuming that there are two is stupid.

This is a textbook example of the argument from ignorance.  It's a logical fallacy and while it does prove stupidity, I'm afraid you've hit an unintended target.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: REphoenix on September 04, 2013, 07:32:41 PM
You look out your window and see a flat earth. You won't accept that the earth could be round. But when you look out your window and you see one sun you think it is possible that there are two. It makes no sense.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Pongo on September 04, 2013, 07:44:38 PM
You look out your window and see a flat earth. You won't accept that the earth could be round. But when you look out your window and you see one sun you think it is possible that there are two. It makes no sense.

You're putting words in my mouth.  I can admit that the earth could be round.  It's called having a falsifiable claim.  If sufficient proof was presented to me I would have to change my views.  You only assume that I cannot change because you think that I've reached my stance on the wings of delusion and myth likely steeped in dogmatic religion.  The irony of course being that you're the one saturated with indoctrination so fully that you cannot even fathom the possibility of the world being anything but round.  This is called having an unfalsifiable view and is as unscientific as Jesus was white.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 07:49:18 PM
Pongo, please view my Anelemma thread or either of Alex's threads debunking the flat earth models. I think all of those are a good start for proof.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 07:52:17 PM
You look out your window and see a flat earth. You won't accept that the earth could be round. But when you look out your window and you see one sun you think it is possible that there are two. It makes no sense.

You're putting words in my mouth.  I can admit that the earth could be round.  It's called having a falsifiable claim.  If sufficient proof was presented to me I would have to change my views.  You only assume that I cannot change because you think that I've reached my stance on the wings of delusion and myth likely steeped in dogmatic religion.  The irony of course being that you're the one saturated with indoctrination so fully that you cannot even fathom the possibility of the world being anything but round.  This is called having an unfalsifiable view and is as unscientific as Jesus was white.

And what do you call denial? Is intellectual dishonesty scientific? A conspiracy theory is likely in your view?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Pongo on September 04, 2013, 08:04:17 PM
Pongo, please view my Anelemma thread or either of Alex's threads debunking the flat earth models. I think all of those are a good start for proof.

You're anelemma thread failed to compel me for a couple reasons.  First, I fail to see how the formation of an anelemma necessitates a round-earth and second, all you're doing is trying to poke holes in flat-earth theory.  Even if tomorrow you demonstrated conclusively that the earth isn't flat, it does nothing to prove that it's round.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 08:22:44 PM
Pongo, please view my Anelemma thread or either of Alex's threads debunking the flat earth models. I think all of those are a good start for proof.

You're anelemma thread failed to compel me for a couple reasons.  First, I fail to see how the formation of an anelemma necessitates a round-earth and second, all you're doing is trying to poke holes in flat-earth theory.  Even if tomorrow you demonstrated conclusively that the earth isn't flat, it does nothing to prove that it's round.

The anelemma thread does demonstrate a spherical earth. If you can't wrap your mind around that then, well, shucks.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 04, 2013, 08:30:27 PM
My follow-up comments in the Anelmma thread address Tom Bishop. I ask him to provide a model of the FE that can account for this phenomenon. Those comments are against his responses. Before that I made two long statements that state nothing but observational, verifiable proof that the earth is round that even you can check for yourself if you have a camera and one minute each day to take a picture for a year.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 05, 2013, 04:05:15 AM
It could quickly zip under the earth.

Why would it randomly speed up while traveling under the earth?

Because the earth is round  8)
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 05, 2013, 04:11:48 AM
Pongo, please view my Anelemma thread or either of Alex's threads debunking the flat earth models. I think all of those are a good start for proof.

You're anelemma thread failed to compel me for a couple reasons.  First, I fail to see how the formation of an anelemma necessitates a round-earth and second, all you're doing is trying to poke holes in flat-earth theory.  Even if tomorrow you demonstrated conclusively that the earth isn't flat, it does nothing to prove that it's round.

My main reason being here is not to promote RE but to show that the FE is nonsense. So if you accept that the earth is not flat, that's enough for me.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: REphoenix on September 05, 2013, 04:13:17 AM
My main reason being here is not to promote RE but to show that the FE is nonsense. So if you accept that the earth is not flat, that's enough for me.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 05, 2013, 05:01:36 AM
My main reason being here is not to promote RE but to show that the FE is nonsense. So if you accept that the earth is not flat, that's enough for me.

This would also be enough for me.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Pongo on September 05, 2013, 07:58:01 AM
Pongo, please view my Anelemma thread or either of Alex's threads debunking the flat earth models. I think all of those are a good start for proof.

You're anelemma thread failed to compel me for a couple reasons.  First, I fail to see how the formation of an anelemma necessitates a round-earth and second, all you're doing is trying to poke holes in flat-earth theory.  Even if tomorrow you demonstrated conclusively that the earth isn't flat, it does nothing to prove that it's round.

My main reason being here is not to promote RE but to show that the FE is nonsense. So if you accept that the earth is not flat, that's enough for me.

Then I suppose the next step is demonstrating that the earth isn't flat.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 05, 2013, 08:36:40 AM
Pongo, please view my Anelemma thread or either of Alex's threads debunking the flat earth models. I think all of those are a good start for proof.

You're anelemma thread failed to compel me for a couple reasons.  First, I fail to see how the formation of an anelemma necessitates a round-earth and second, all you're doing is trying to poke holes in flat-earth theory.  Even if tomorrow you demonstrated conclusively that the earth isn't flat, it does nothing to prove that it's round.

My main reason being here is not to promote RE but to show that the FE is nonsense. So if you accept that the earth is not flat, that's enough for me.

Then I suppose the next step is demonstrating that the earth isn't flat.

Many threads in debate section are about this (sinking ship effect, sun distance etc). Most, if not all, threads end up in being abandoned by the FE believers.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: robintex on September 05, 2013, 09:52:36 AM
Pongo, please view my Anelemma thread or either of Alex's threads debunking the flat earth models. I think all of those are a good start for proof.

You're anelemma thread failed to compel me for a couple reasons.  First, I fail to see how the formation of an anelemma necessitates a round-earth and second, all you're doing is trying to poke holes in flat-earth theory.  Even if tomorrow you demonstrated conclusively that the earth isn't flat, it does nothing to prove that it's round.

My main reason being here is not to promote RE but to show that the FE is nonsense. So if you accept that the earth is not flat, that's enough for me.

Then I suppose the next step is demonstrating that the earth isn't flat.

Many threads in debate section are about this (sinking ship effect, sun distance etc). Most, if not all, threads end up in being abandoned by the FE believers.

It is called "The Hung Threads List." ;D
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Alex Tomasovich on September 05, 2013, 10:34:15 AM
Pongo, please view my Anelemma thread or either of Alex's threads debunking the flat earth models. I think all of those are a good start for proof.

You're anelemma thread failed to compel me for a couple reasons.  First, I fail to see how the formation of an anelemma necessitates a round-earth and second, all you're doing is trying to poke holes in flat-earth theory.  Even if tomorrow you demonstrated conclusively that the earth isn't flat, it does nothing to prove that it's round.

My main reason being here is not to promote RE but to show that the FE is nonsense. So if you accept that the earth is not flat, that's enough for me.

Then I suppose the next step is demonstrating that the earth isn't flat.

Many threads in debate section are about this (sinking ship effect, sun distance etc). Most, if not all, threads end up in being abandoned by the FE believers.

It is called "The Hung Threads List." ;D
That list hasn't been updated in a long while! Someone should get on tha ... oh, that'd be me. Right. Be right back.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Alex Tomasovich on September 05, 2013, 10:40:19 AM
Are you saying there is more than one sun?

No, but neither am I saying their isn't.  I'm just wondering why you are assuming such.  It's assumptions like these that plague round-earth science.  In flat-earth science we look at the evidence and make conclusions based on the facts.  We do not make assumptions then try and make the facts fit the conclusion.
Okay. Observation: A bright light in the sky we call "The sun" is, at one point in time, at the western edge of the Earth and moving west. Two hours later a bright light in the sky we call "The sun" is on the eastern edge of the Earth and moving west.

Possibility 1: These two lights are the same sun, as measurements of them are exactly identical (if it looks like a duck, etc.). The problem then is how does this singular object cross the Earth in 2 hours without anybody noticing? If it goes behind the Earth, why wouldn't UA make it crash into the Earth? What is causing the sun to spontaneously stop getting affected by UA to even get beneath the Earth in the first place? Does the sun teleport?

Possibility 2: These two lights, despite being identical, are in fact two separate objects. The problem then is why aren't these two ever seen at the same time? For instance, during a solstice when one of the suns is perpetually over the Earth and visible by humans, where is the other one? Why does it only come out at equinox time?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 23, 2013, 10:35:04 PM
I shall attempt to contribute to this discussion. Point 1: There is only one Sun. This much is obvious. Point 2: FEers need to be able to prove zetetically the thesis that the Earth is flat. Although Rowbotham is a good place to start, he cannot be the final word on the subject. I am willing to consider the FET (I am reading ENaG now), but some of Rowbotham's arguments will not hold up in light of today's knowledge. For example, we know that the Moon is not illumined of itself, but rather, reflects the light of the Sun. Point 3: The many and diverse ideas of what a FE looks like are a weakness rather than a strength. In another thread, I pointed out that, according to inductive logic, a Bipolar Map is more logical than a Unipolar Map. Point 4: FEers, in order to be taken seriously, must develop a thesis that all of them can accept. I am uncertain whether I am a REer or a FEer, but if FET is true, it should present the reader with sound argumentation based on zetetic studies, rather than theoretical jargon. See the other thread for details (Glad to See This! Interested in Finding out More). {That is the title of the other thread}.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 01:27:08 AM
3: The many and diverse ideas of what a FE looks like are a weakness rather than a strength.
4: FEers, in order to be taken seriously, must develop a thesis that all of them can accept.

There is one and only one thing where these guys can agree unanimously ; the earth is flat. They disagree on the rest. If a newbie can pick up this, then it means that FEers are in a serious disarray.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 06:30:01 AM
Cartesian, greeting: You would appear to be correct. There appears to be little agreement between the FEers as to whether the Earth is a disc or a square, whether it is Unipolar or Bipolar, what holds the water in, whether there is UA or gravity, and what the aetheric wind is. I am willing to consider a FET, but I would be more inclined if the FEers could agree on their own.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 06:51:52 AM
In RET, there disagreements as to what exactly gravity is.  Why it works on the scale of the Earth, but not on the scale of galaxies or molecules.  There is disagreement on the age of the Earth, solar system, and Universe.  There are disagreements on how, when, and why life started. 

Why are we held to one standard, but RET is not held to the same standards?  Oh, I see now.  The bias is very strong in the RE'ers.

It is like knowing that Coors is better, yet challenging your friend to prove the Bud is better.  You will not really listen to anything he has to say.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 07:04:58 AM
In RET, there disagreements as to what exactly gravity is.  Why it works on the scale of the Earth, but not on the scale of galaxies or molecules.  There is disagreement on the age of the Earth, solar system, and Universe.  There are disagreements on how, when, and why life started. 

Why are we held to one standard, but RET is not held to the same standards?  Oh, I see now.  The bias is very strong in the RE'ers.

It is like knowing that Coors is better, yet challenging your friend to prove the Bud is better.  You will not really listen to anything he has to say.

This is incorrect. FE likes to scrutinize Newtonian gravity even though it is well known that the commonly accepted view of how gravity works is Einsteins which works on the molecular and galactic scale. The only reason why Newton's gravitational laws are still widely used is for simplicities sake. Because they do work on the earth scale and they are far easier to work with than Einstein's.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Rama Set on September 24, 2013, 07:06:27 AM
In RET, there disagreements as to what exactly gravity is.  Why it works on the scale of the Earth, but not on the scale of galaxies or molecules.  There is disagreement on the age of the Earth, solar system, and Universe.  There are disagreements on how, when, and why life started.

You are making a false comparison.

Quote
Why are we held to one standard, but RET is not held to the same standards?  Oh, I see now.  The bias is very strong in the RE'ers.

It is like knowing that Coors is better, yet challenging your friend to prove the Bud is better.  You will not really listen to anything he has to say.

The Earth has been circled millions of times, explored, observed and documented for centuries. We are not talking about the frontiers of exploration when speaking of the present day Earth, neither the monopolar nor the bipolar model can answer some very basic questions about the reality of modern air travel and you compare this to the question of how life began?  How to measure Eons of age to extreme accuracy?  How to properly explain the large scale structure of the universe?

I sincerely hope you can appreciate that the complexity of these issues are far greater than measuring the distance from A to B. To me the difference is extremely obvious but if you do not think so I would love to know more, in another thread perhaps.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 07:08:49 AM
To JRoa, greeting! Touché, my good man! You are correct. What's good for the Goose ought to be good for the Gander. REers, any response to JRoa's valid point? If the REer insists that FEers agree on theory, then the FEer has the right to insist that Rounders also agree with themselves. Next point, what can FEers tell me about the Aetheric Wind? Please note that, at present, I am neither a REer or a FEer. I am weighing both theories before siding with either.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 07:10:02 AM
In RET, there disagreements as to what exactly gravity is.  Why it works on the scale of the Earth, but not on the scale of galaxies or molecules.  There is disagreement on the age of the Earth, solar system, and Universe.  There are disagreements on how, when, and why life started. 

Why are we held to one standard, but RET is not held to the same standards?  Oh, I see now.  The bias is very strong in the RE'ers.

It is like knowing that Coors is better, yet challenging your friend to prove the Bud is better.  You will not really listen to anything he has to say.

This is incorrect. FE likes to scrutinize Newtonian gravity even though it is well known that the commonly accepted view of how gravity works is Einsteins which works on the molecular and galactic scale. The only reason why Newton's gravitational laws are still widely used is for simplicities sake. Because they do work on the earth scale and they are far easier to work with than Einstein's.

There is no unified theory.  There is no one theory that explains gravity at every level.  Yes, some come close, and work really well at specific levels.  But, no, there is no unified theory.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 07:12:18 AM
To JRoa, greeting! Touché, my good man! You are correct. What's good for the Goose ought to be good for the Gander. REers, any response to JRoa's valid point? If the REer insists that FEers agree on theory, then the FEer has the right to insist that Rounders also agree with themselves. Next point, what can FEers tell me about the Aetheric Wind? Please note that, at present, I am neither a REer or a FEer. I am weighing both theories before siding with either.

There is no disagreement among RE'rs that have taken the time to understand gravity past the Newtonian explanation. Just because a normal, everyday, non-FES visiting round earther doesn't understand gravity doesn't mean that the scientific community doesn't agree about it.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 07:12:42 AM
To JRoa, greeting! Touché, my good man! You are correct. What's good for the Goose ought to be good for the Gander. REers, any response to JRoa's valid point? If the REer insists that FEers agree on theory, then the FEer has the right to insist that Rounders also agree with themselves. Next point, what can FEers tell me about the Aetheric Wind? Please note that, at present, I am neither a REer or a FEer. I am weighing both theories before siding with either.

Sorry, I had written my last response before you asked us to change gears.

I am not a big supporter of Aetheric Wind, however, it does answer a lot of questions.  It explains UA, the celestial movements, and some say it even explains why the atmoplane remains on the Earth.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Rushy on September 24, 2013, 07:24:05 AM
There is no disagreement among RE'rs that have taken the time to understand gravity past the Newtonian explanation. Just because a normal, everyday, non-FES visiting round earther doesn't understand gravity doesn't mean that the scientific community doesn't agree about it.

Would you kindly point me to the unified theory of gravity so that I may review it with joyous heart? It would certainly be news to me (and a great deal of theoretical physicists).
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 07:29:38 AM
There is no disagreement among RE'rs that have taken the time to understand gravity past the Newtonian explanation. Just because a normal, everyday, non-FES visiting round earther doesn't understand gravity doesn't mean that the scientific community doesn't agree about it.

Would you kindly point me to the unified theory of gravity so that I may review it with joyous heart? It would certainly be news to me (and a great deal of theoretical physicists).

I'm not saying that there is a unified theory of gravity. I'm saying that the FES tends to complain about the Newtonian model when that isn't even the accepted model.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 07:34:38 AM
There is no disagreement among RE'rs that have taken the time to understand gravity past the Newtonian explanation. Just because a normal, everyday, non-FES visiting round earther doesn't understand gravity doesn't mean that the scientific community doesn't agree about it.

Would you kindly point me to the unified theory of gravity so that I may review it with joyous heart? It would certainly be news to me (and a great deal of theoretical physicists).

I'm not saying that there is a unified theory of gravity. I'm saying that the FES tends to complain about the Newtonian model when that isn't even the accepted model.

Just out of curiosity, which of the scores of RET gravity models is the real, true one?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 07:37:05 AM
Just out of curiosity, which of the scores of RET gravity models is the real, true one?

Newtonian works fine up to our solar system level. Have you got something unified even at the earth level?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 07:38:11 AM
Yes, we all agree that the Earth is flat.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 07:40:35 AM
Yes, we all agree that the Earth is flat.

That's about it though right?

Try to take a stab at how many ideas are unified in the RE model.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 07:41:26 AM
Yes, we all agree that the Earth is flat.

I am talking about the FE explanation that replaces RE gravity model. Isn't that what you asked? I sense a derailment attempt in progress here

Just out of curiosity, which of the scores of RET gravity models is the real, true one?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 07:49:54 AM
Greetings:

I would like to make two points. Point One, can anyone explain the concept of the Aetheric Wind? I am completely ignorant of the concept and would like to understand what it is, what it does, and why it exists. Point Two, perhaps a Rounder could explain to me, in bullet point fashion (or some equally understandable method), the concepts of both Newtonian and Einsteinian gravity theories. Then perhaps they could explain how to two are similar, and how they are different one from the other. And furthermore, which theory are we using and why? If we are expected to use both, why is that? To be blunt, it doesn't make a lot of sense to say that we have to use Newton's theory to a point, but after that we have to use Einstein's. One theory should be good enough to explain gravity at the level of our Earth and Solar System, as well as on the Galactic scale. It makes no sense to have a mishmash of both theories. How are we to know where to start with one and where to leave off with it? Rounders, its only fair to ask that you be as logical in your theories as you are asking the Flatters to be.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 08:32:44 AM
Greetings:

I would like to make two points. Point One, can anyone explain the concept of the Aetheric Wind? I am completely ignorant of the concept and would like to understand what it is, what it does, and why it exists. Point Two, perhaps a Rounder could explain to me, in bullet point fashion (or some equally understandable method), the concepts of both Newtonian and Einsteinian gravity theories. Then perhaps they could explain how to two are similar, and how they are different one from the other. And furthermore, which theory are we using and why? If we are expected to use both, why is that? To be blunt, it doesn't make a lot of sense to say that we have to use Newton's theory to a point, but after that we have to use Einstein's. One theory should be good enough to explain gravity at the level of our Earth and Solar System, as well as on the Galactic scale. It makes no sense to have a mishmash of both theories. How are we to know where to start with one and where to leave off with it? Rounders, its only fair to ask that you be as logical in your theories as you are asking the Flatters to be.

It's complicated and surely you can just wikipedia terms such as: Gravitation, Relativity, Newton and Einstein.

Basically it is this though, Newtonian gravity says that:

First law: When viewed in an inertial reference frame, an object either is at rest or moves at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force.

The inertial reference frame part is an addition that Newton did not originally apply. Our solar system is an inertial reference frame and that came to light because of Einstein's discoveries.

All inertial frames are in a state of constant, rectilinear motion with respect to one another; an accelerometer moving with any of them would detect zero acceleration. In general relativity, in any region small enough for the curvature of spacetime to be negligible, one can find a set of inertial frames that approximately describe that region. This is why it is acceptable for us to use Newtonian gravity for our reference frame. It all works within that reference.

Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 08:34:50 AM
perhaps a Rounder could explain to me, in bullet point fashion (or some equally understandable method), the concepts of both Newtonian and Einsteinian gravity theories.

I can try to explain this to you. As far as I know, although RE model is happy with Netwtonian/Kepler gravity theory to explain how objects interact among them at least up to the solar system scale, there are still some mysteries surrounding how stars orbit around the centre of the galaxy. Something beyond your or my day to day life. But some RE scientists still try to explain this by introducing dark matters whereas others introduce other theories such as modified Netwtonian dynamics etc. Maybe Newtonian theory of gravity is not perfect yet for a scale beyond this solar system and needs some refinements to be able to work elsewhere but FEers always use this fact to blame the entire theory although they don't even have a single theory that works on the surface of the earth at all.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 08:39:33 AM
perhaps a Rounder could explain to me, in bullet point fashion (or some equally understandable method), the concepts of both Newtonian and Einsteinian gravity theories.

I can try to explain this to you. As far as I know, although RE model is happy with Netwtonian/Kepler gravity theory to explain how objects interact among them at least up to the solar system scale, there are still some mysteries surrounding how stars orbit around the centre of the galaxy. Something beyond your or my day to day life. But some RE scientists still try to explain this by introducing dark matters whereas others introduce other theories such as modified Netwtonian dynamics etc. Maybe Newtonian theory of gravity is not perfect yet for a scale beyond this solar system and needs some refinements to be able to work elsewhere but FEers always use this fact to blame the entire theory although they don't even have a single theory that works on the surface of the earth at all.

Dark matter receives its name from the fact that when observing stars in distant regions, those stars appear to be influenced by gravity from apparently dark regions of space. The theory is that we cannot see what could be causing this because those objects are dark or not emitting any light. So it follows that there is some gravitational force caused by matter in these dark regions but they are just not emitting light. Hence the name, dark matter.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 08:44:40 AM
If you don't know an answer, just say so.  Your theory makes up all kinds of crap to explain away why it should not, but does work.  If it does not work, then come up with a new theory that is based on reality.  Don't just say, "fairies and magic and black stuff you can't see did it."
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 08:47:24 AM
If you don't know an answer, just say so.  Your theory makes up all kinds of crap to explain away why it should not, but does work.  If it does not work, then come up with a new theory that is based on reality.  Don't just say, "fairies and magic and black stuff you can't see did it."

We know the answer up to solar system scale. Do you even have one for the surface of the earth?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 08:47:37 AM
If you don't know an answer, just say so.  Your theory makes up all kinds of crap to explain away why it should not, but does work.  If it does not work, then come up with a new theory that is based on reality.  Don't just say, "fairies and magic and black stuff you can't see did it."

What are you talking about?

The theory doesn't imply that we even know what it is.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 08:51:24 AM
Before I accept that Flatters don't have a theory that explains gravitation, I shall ask them first. So, to you FEers, how is the affect of gravitation explained? Please tell me about the Aetheric Wind and UA. How do they work? And what, if any connection does the upward acceleration of the Earth at 9.8 meters per second squared have to do with Terminal Velocity, which is also 9.8 meters per second squared? Granted, the latter is explained  through Newtonian gravity, but is there any connection between the two? And Rounders, I don't think you can have it both ways. Either you have Newtonian physics, or Einsteinian physics. I don't see how two different theories of gravitation can BOTH be correct. If they can be, please explain.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 08:52:09 AM
If you don't know an answer, just say so.  Your theory makes up all kinds of crap to explain away why it should not, but does work.  If it does not work, then come up with a new theory that is based on reality.  Don't just say, "fairies and magic and black stuff you can't see did it."

We know the answer up to solar system scale. Do you even have one for the surface of the earth?

Yes, we do.  UA provides us with this force, and it accelerates us at 9.8 m/s/s. 

Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 08:52:53 AM
Before I accept that Flatters don't have a theory that explains gravitation, I shall ask them first. So, to you FEers, how is the affect of gravitation explained? Please tell me about the Aetheric Wind and UA. How do they work? And what, if any connection does the upward acceleration of the Earth at 9.8 meters per second squared have to do with Terminal Velocity, which is also 9.8 meters per second squared? Granted, the latter is explained  through Newtonian gravity, but is there any connection between the two? And Rounders, I don't think you can have it both ways. Either you have Newtonian physics, or Einsteinian physics. I don't see how two different theories of gravitation can BOTH be correct. If they can be, please explain.

Terminal velocity is not what you seem to think it means. 
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 08:56:06 AM
Before I accept that Flatters don't have a theory that explains gravitation, I shall ask them first. So, to you FEers, how is the affect of gravitation explained? Please tell me about the Aetheric Wind and UA. How do they work? And what, if any connection does the upward acceleration of the Earth at 9.8 meters per second squared have to do with Terminal Velocity, which is also 9.8 meters per second squared? Granted, the latter is explained  through Newtonian gravity, but is there any connection between the two? And Rounders, I don't think you can have it both ways. Either you have Newtonian physics, or Einsteinian physics. I don't see how two different theories of gravitation can BOTH be correct. If they can be, please explain.

I just explained it to you. In our inertial reference frame, Newtonian gravity is fine. In that reference frame it is not necessary to consider the aspects defined by Einstein in relativity.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 09:00:33 AM
Yes, we do.  UA provides us with this force, and it accelerates us at 9.8 m/s/s.

Then explain why we observe that the gravity or UA in your case is not uniformly 9.9 m/s² everywhere on the earth. It is 9.78 m/s² (minimum) at the equator and 9.83 m/s² at the poles (maximum). See the travelling gnome experiment (http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/travelling-gnome-experiment-visits-world-s-deepest-lab-1.1294979 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/travelling-gnome-experiment-visits-world-s-deepest-lab-1.1294979))

You know what would happen to the flat earth if it is not accelerated at the same value? The pole would have left the equator behind since long ago
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 09:05:33 AM
I doubt that is true.  The discrepancies are likely do to either the moon or other celestial objects having an affect on the local force. 
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 09:07:25 AM
I doubt that is true.  The discrepancies are likely do to either the moon or other celestial objects having an affect on the local force.

Caused by gravity? Newtonian one? Or something else? Please post evidence.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 09:08:04 AM
I doubt that is true.  The discrepancies are likely do to either the moon or other celestial objects having an affect on the local force.

Take notice Yaakov ben Avraham. FE often invokes gravity to explain things that can't be explained. I coined this term "selective gravity".
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 09:18:01 AM
So is there gravity or not? And if so, where? If the Earth has UA, what do the other bodies have? Does the Sun have gravity? What about the Moon? The other planets? I am not sure that Flatters can have it both ways either. Either there is gravity, or there is not, I would think. Do explain.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 09:23:18 AM
I did not say "Gravity", you disingenuous little gits.  I described a force, whether it is electromagnetic, gravitational, or just describes an unknown energy.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 09:24:32 AM
I did not say "Gravity", you disingenuous little gits.  I described a force, whether it is electromagnetic, gravitational, or just describes an unknown energy.

Hey, it's not like I've never heard a flat earth say "celestial gravity".
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 09:28:31 AM
I described a force, whether it is electromagnetic, gravitational, or just describes an unknown energy.

What is this unknown force jroa? Do you need the equivalent of dark matter to explain what's going on even on Earth?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 09:29:01 AM
I did not say "Gravity", you disingenuous little gits.  I described a force, whether it is electromagnetic, gravitational, or just describes an unknown energy.

Hey, it's not like I've never heard a flat earth say "celestial gravity".
Fair enough.  Let's not argue about what this energy is.  Some may  claim celestial gravity, some claim magnetism, and some say they are not sure.  However, all we know is that the Heavens likely affect the Earth as we know it. 
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 09:29:48 AM
Well, lets make sure that what we say JRoa said, he actually DID say. It is unfair to him (or her, gender uncertain) to accuse him/her of saying things that he/she did not say. So, to be clear, what is gravity according to Rounders? Do we have proof of it? According to Flatters, what is UA? What is Aetheric Wind? do we have proof of either?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 09:31:43 AM
Well, lets make sure that what we say JRoa said, he actually DID say. It is unfair to him (or her, gender uncertain) to accuse him/her of saying things that he/she did not say. So, to be clear, what is gravity according to Rounders? Do we have proof of it? According to Flatters, what is UA? What is Aetheric Wind? do we have proof of either?

According to rounders gravity is simply defined as "the apparent attraction of objects toward each other". The mechanism by which this works is not completely known but Einstein did provide a satisfying theory that has to do with mass causing spacetime to curve.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 09:33:54 AM
I described a force, whether it is electromagnetic, gravitational, or just describes an unknown energy.

What is this unknown force jroa? Do you need the equivalent of dark matter to explain what's going on even on Earth?

Please explain to me the exact way a Higgs Boson field works.  It could not possibly be real if you can not explain every little detail.  If you can not explain that, then your whole theory just goes to shit, no does it not?

I am saying this in a rhetorical way.  I don't give a shit for you to copy and past wikipedia crap here.  I am just proving a point.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 09:35:56 AM
Fair enough.  Let's not argue about what this energy is.  Some may  claim celestial gravity, some claim magnetism, and some say they are not sure.  However, all we know is that the Heavens likely affect the Earth as we know it. 

This is exactly what OP meant when he said:

3: The many and diverse ideas of what a FE looks like are a weakness rather than a strength.
4: FEers, in order to be taken seriously, must develop a thesis that all of them can accept.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 09:39:22 AM
I described a force, whether it is electromagnetic, gravitational, or just describes an unknown energy.

What is this unknown force jroa? Do you need the equivalent of dark matter to explain what's going on even on Earth?

Please explain to me the exact way a Higgs Boson field works.  It could not possibly be real if you can not explain every little detail.  If you can not explain that, then your whole theory just goes to shit, no does it not?

I am saying this in a rhetorical way.  I don't give a shit for you to copy and past wikipedia crap here.  I am just proving a point.

Not until at least you have a unified theory that is working on the surface of the earth as good as Newtonian gravity on RE model.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 09:45:23 AM
It seems to me that both Rounders and Flatters have some trouble with being Zetetic. According to Rowbotham, the goal of Zeteticism was to only accept beliefs that could be verified by experiments. He argued that theoreticals were just that, theoreticals, and had no value for actual belief. And yet, in his book ENaG, he posits a lot of ideas based on the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. That, at least to me, is NOT being Zetetic. As a Traditional Jew, I do not accept the New Testament as having any value in terms of religious truth, though I shall accept it for its historical value. But Rowbotham's attempt to explain everything he could not explain by experiments by using the Christian Bible seems to me to be a copout.

Rounders, on the other hand, seem to have just as much trouble. When they do experiments, they get results that they do not understand, so they create theories that explain the experiments. For example, the traditional apple falling from the tree which Newton observed, he could not understand. So he said it was gravity. Is there any proof that gravity exists? It seems to me that there is as much proof for gravity as there is for UA and the Aetheric Wind, namely, very little. Furthermore, it seems to me that attempting to categorically prove either idea is bound to fail, at least in the literal sense. It further seems that Rounders and Flatters are both rather "stuck" in their own framework of reference, and thus have a hard time getting out of that in order to see the other framework of reference employed by the other side.

This post is not designed to poke fun at either Rounders or Flatters. Rather, it is intended to make clear that both sides use theories that cannot be proven empirically. I think its only fair to say that, given that both sides accuse the other of using off-the-wall ideas that are unprovable. I don't know if you all get the hang of what I'm saying. I seem to be saying it rather badly, so I'll just shut up now. Any thoughts on what I just wrote?

PS. What does OP mean?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 09:47:21 AM
I described a force, whether it is electromagnetic, gravitational, or just describes an unknown energy.

What is this unknown force jroa? Do you need the equivalent of dark matter to explain what's going on even on Earth?

Please explain to me the exact way a Higgs Boson field works.  It could not possibly be real if you can not explain every little detail.  If you can not explain that, then your whole theory just goes to shit, no does it not?

I am saying this in a rhetorical way.  I don't give a shit for you to copy and past wikipedia crap here.  I am just proving a point.

Not until at least you have a unified theory that is working on the surface of the earth as good as Newtonian gravity on RE model.

Does RE have a unified theory yet?  I never said that Newtonian Calculations do not work, at least not here on Earth.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 09:54:01 AM
We have Newtonian gravity that works fine not only on Earth but up to the scale of our solar system.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 09:57:01 AM
We have Newtonian gravity that works fine not only on Earth but up to the scale of our solar system.

Newtonian gravity only works if you are not very close or very far.  It is the Three Bears story of science.  It only works when it is just right.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 10:01:00 AM
Newtonian gravity only works if you are not very close or very far.  It is the Three Bears story of science.  It only works when it is just right.

What example can you give for the scale of our solar system?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 10:02:27 AM
It seems to me that both Rounders and Flatters have some trouble with being Zetetic. According to Rowbotham, the goal of Zeteticism was to only accept beliefs that could be verified by experiments. He argued that theoreticals were just that, theoreticals, and had no value for actual belief. And yet, in his book ENaG, he posits a lot of ideas based on the Judeo-Christian Scriptures. That, at least to me, is NOT being Zetetic. As a Traditional Jew, I do not accept the New Testament as having any value in terms of religious truth, though I shall accept it for its historical value. But Rowbotham's attempt to explain everything he could not explain by experiments by using the Christian Bible seems to me to be a copout.

Rounders, on the other hand, seem to have just as much trouble. When they do experiments, they get results that they do not understand, so they create theories that explain the experiments. For example, the traditional apple falling from the tree which Newton observed, he could not understand. So he said it was gravity. Is there any proof that gravity exists? It seems to me that there is as much proof for gravity as there is for UA and the Aetheric Wind, namely, very little. Furthermore, it seems to me that attempting to categorically prove either idea is bound to fail, at least in the literal sense. It further seems that Rounders and Flatters are both rather "stuck" in their own framework of reference, and thus have a hard time getting out of that in order to see the other framework of reference employed by the other side.

This post is not designed to poke fun at either Rounders or Flatters. Rather, it is intended to make clear that both sides use theories that cannot be proven empirically. I think its only fair to say that, given that both sides accuse the other of using off-the-wall ideas that are unprovable. I don't know if you all get the hang of what I'm saying. I seem to be saying it rather badly, so I'll just shut up now. Any thoughts on what I just wrote?

PS. What does OP mean?

Gravity isn't defined as being anymore than an observation. I'm not sure why you are insisting that it isn't real because there is no explanation (mind you, Einstein DID provide an explanation). It is obviously real because it happens. Things fall. You are falling into the same trap many FE'rs do by insisting there isn't an explanation by saying that Newtonian gravity is the accepted model.

Your comments about reference frame are odd. A reference frame is a real thing. It's not a hypothetical way to talk about world views.

We can have it both ways with gravity (Newton and Einstein) and I have shown you why. In the inertial reference frame of our solar system, it works the way Newton suggested, but then it breaks apart at a galactic scale. Einstein provided a way that works in both systems but the reason why we still invoke Newton despite Einstein's superior work is because it works here and most of all it's SIMPLE, unlike relativity.

I feel like I've typed this already.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 10:04:42 AM
Newtonian gravity only works if you are not very close or very far.  It is the Three Bears story of science.  It only works when it is just right.

What example can you give for the scale of our solar system?

Uh, everything move at the same speed?  Yes, that would be my answer. 
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 24, 2013, 10:05:57 AM
Newtonian gravity only works if you are not very close or very far.  It is the Three Bears story of science.  It only works when it is just right.

What example can you give for the scale of our solar system?

Uh, everything move at the same speed?  Yes, that would be my answer.

Galactical scale? I said what example can you give for the scale of our solar system?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 10:07:52 AM
Well, if Einstein was able to give an account that worked in BOTH systems, then  it seems silly to invoke Newton. I would think that he would be passe, once Einstein had spoken, if indeed Einstein's theory is superior. It may be hard to explain, but if it can account for all observed phenomena both local and galactic, it seems that it would be worth explaining. Does that make sense? And WHAT does OP mean?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 10:12:50 AM
Einstein was a smart man.  He was just wrong about the shape of the Earth. 
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 10:13:20 AM
Well, if Einstein was able to give an account that worked in BOTH systems, then  it seems silly to invoke Newton. I would think that he would be passe, once Einstein had spoken, if indeed Einstein's theory is superior. It may be hard to explain, but if it can account for all observed phenomena both local and galactic, it seems that it would be worth explaining. Does that make sense? And WHAT does OP mean?

We do invoke Einstein. It is more complete but it is unnecessary to do so when working with things in this inertial frame. For instance, we use calculators. I can bother to learn about how to do all the work necessary to do mathematics by using scratch paper if I want to but it is unnecessary when I can just use the calculator for the simple stuff. When things get more complex though you have to pull out the paper and pencil.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 10:15:34 AM
WHAT DOES OP MEAN?????????!!!!!!!!! >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o<
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: markjo on September 24, 2013, 10:17:46 AM
Newtonian gravity only works if you are not very close or very far.  It is the Three Bears story of science.  It only works when it is just right.

What example can you give for the scale of our solar system?
The precession of the perihelion of Mercury's orbit can not be explained by Newtonian gravity.  However, it was one of the first successful tests of Einstein's General Relativity.

WHAT DOES OP MEAN?????????!!!!!!!!! >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o<
OP = Original Post
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 24, 2013, 10:18:19 AM
Yaakov ben Avraham, I know you are new, but these are the upper fora and I will ask you to please refrain from low content posting here.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 10:26:40 AM
Thank you for answering that question. I shall attempt to refrain from asking less intelligent questions in future. I must admit, this whole FE/RE debate is utterly fascinating to me. I could bury myself in it, I think. I wish I could get "The Inconsistency of Modern Astronomy" on my Nook, but as it was only a pamphlet, it hasn't been published there. I am still uncertain of which theory I believe. Both sides seem to have valid points. However, there is one thing I should say. Rounders do have one leg up on Flatters. This leg up is the fact that if you assume a RE, that explains the movement of the stars, the other planets, the Earth, and everything else. Flatters have to go to a lot more trouble, it seems, to come up with reasons for things happening the way they do. If we apply Occam's Razor, the Rounders would seem to win simply based on the statement that "the simplest answer is usually the truth." However, in science, as we have seen, nothing is simple. So Occam's Razor may not even be appropriate to invoke here. What say you all?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 24, 2013, 11:35:20 AM
Thank you for answering that question. I shall attempt to refrain from asking less intelligent questions in future. I must admit, this whole FE/RE debate is utterly fascinating to me. I could bury myself in it, I think. I wish I could get "The Inconsistency of Modern Astronomy" on my Nook, but as it was only a pamphlet, it hasn't been published there. I am still uncertain of which theory I believe. Both sides seem to have valid points. However, there is one thing I should say. Rounders do have one leg up on Flatters. This leg up is the fact that if you assume a RE, that explains the movement of the stars, the other planets, the Earth, and everything else. Flatters have to go to a lot more trouble, it seems, to come up with reasons for things happening the way they do. If we apply Occam's Razor, the Rounders would seem to win simply based on the statement that "the simplest answer is usually the truth." However, in science, as we have seen, nothing is simple. So Occam's Razor may not even be appropriate to invoke here. What say you all?

I say that Occam's Razor actually supports FET: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Occam%27s_Razor (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Occam%27s_Razor)
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 11:58:45 AM
Well, Tom, I must admit I don't have a response to that.  But the ultimate question is "WHY"? Why would NASA spend so much time faking everything they have done? What would be the point? What would they gain from it? In fact, if the Earth is flat, then why bother to have organisations like NASA at all? Since our eyes do show us a flat Earth (I won't argue that; when one looks at the horizon with one's eyes, it does appear the the sky comes down to meet the Earth. The Earth does indeed look flat). But if it is flat, in accordance with what most of the ancients believed, then why challenge that belief? Where would be the value in spending so much time and effort in trying to prove that the Earth is round when in fact it is not, and most people would agree with what their eyes are showing them? I just don't get what motive the REers could possibly have for upsetting the entire apple cart.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: rottingroom on September 24, 2013, 12:06:44 PM
Thank you for answering that question. I shall attempt to refrain from asking less intelligent questions in future. I must admit, this whole FE/RE debate is utterly fascinating to me. I could bury myself in it, I think. I wish I could get "The Inconsistency of Modern Astronomy" on my Nook, but as it was only a pamphlet, it hasn't been published there. I am still uncertain of which theory I believe. Both sides seem to have valid points. However, there is one thing I should say. Rounders do have one leg up on Flatters. This leg up is the fact that if you assume a RE, that explains the movement of the stars, the other planets, the Earth, and everything else. Flatters have to go to a lot more trouble, it seems, to come up with reasons for things happening the way they do. If we apply Occam's Razor, the Rounders would seem to win simply based on the statement that "the simplest answer is usually the truth." However, in science, as we have seen, nothing is simple. So Occam's Razor may not even be appropriate to invoke here. What say you all?

I say that Occam's Razor actually supports FET: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Occam%27s_Razor (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Occam%27s_Razor)

IMO the wiki is not using Occam's razor correctly. Who wrote that crackery

Quote from: wikipedia
Occam's razor is not an embargo against the positing of any kind of entity, or a recommendation of the simplest theory come what may. Occam's razor is used to adjudicate between theories that have already passed "theoretical scrutiny" tests, and which are equally well-supported by the evidence.

The other things in question are the evidential support for the theory. Therefore, a simpler but less correct theory should not be always preferred over a more complex but more correct one. It is this fact which gives the lie to the common misinterpretation of Occam's razor that "the simplest" one is usually the correct one. "Preferred" doesn't necessarily mean "correct".
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 24, 2013, 12:15:17 PM
Regrettably, I have to log off. But Rotting, you do have a point about Occam's Razor. And the argument that NASA faked all their research seems to me to unnecessarily complicate matters. However, that having been said, I am still avidly reading ENaG to try and see if there is any support for FET. I am not averse to changing my previously held views (in a RE) if there is need to do so. At present, I shall continue my state of research, acknowledging that either FE or RE may be accurate. It is time to find out. I shall try to come back on my phone later to answer any posts that I find. The difficulty with that is that all the quoted passages take up ALOT  of time for me to get through them on my phone. Perhaps if you could all skip over quoting each other, it might make it easier for me to read and post replies. Thanks. And, if this is a low content post, please accept my apologies. I shall try to refrain from more of those.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 25, 2013, 01:45:43 AM
Newtonian gravity only works if you are not very close or very far.  It is the Three Bears story of science.  It only works when it is just right.

What example can you give for the scale of our solar system?
The precession of the perihelion of Mercury's orbit can not be explained by Newtonian gravity.  However, it was one of the first successful tests of Einstein's General Relativity.

You're absolutely right. We should have been more specific by using the term Newton/Einstein theory rather than just Newtonian.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 25, 2013, 01:48:43 AM
I say that Occam's Razor actually supports FET: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Occam%27s_Razor (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Occam%27s_Razor)

FES wiki doesn't count unless it is peer reviewed. Can I be a contributor to FES wiki?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Son of Orospu on September 25, 2013, 05:47:31 AM
No, but you can review it and make suggestions. 
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 25, 2013, 06:37:36 AM
Then  it is biased isn't it?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Rama Set on September 25, 2013, 06:39:39 AM
Then  it is biased isn't it?

Just because you can't contribute, does not mean REers in principle cannot contribute I think. 
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 25, 2013, 06:42:37 AM
Is there any example of an REers suggestion which makes it to the wiki?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 25, 2013, 08:04:13 AM
I say that Occam's Razor actually supports FET: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Occam%27s_Razor (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Occam%27s_Razor)

FES wiki doesn't count unless it is peer reviewed. Can I be a contributor to FES wiki?

Peer review is a review by peers. You are not our peer.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 25, 2013, 08:40:58 AM
What I meant by being a contributor was obviously an intention to become a peer. Can I be a peer? Do you have an RE peer?
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 25, 2013, 09:23:12 AM
It is a good question. Can a Rounder contribute to the Wiki? What about a person who is neither a Rounder nor a Flatter yet (yet being the key word for both)?  I would understand if the answer was no, since the Flat Earth Wiki is intended to give information regarding a Flat Earth, not a Round Earth.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Yaakov ben Avraham on September 25, 2013, 10:01:41 AM
Question: I've been looking at a Bipolar map of the Flat Earth. How does one circumnavigate the Earth in that model? One could leave Palos, Spain, and return there in a circle... Ah, I see. On a globular Earth one would do the same. However, in this map, I see that its impossible to circumnavigate the world at the equator. Any other latitude, one can do, but not the equator. Query: how does one explain the circumnavigations of the Earth at the equator by sea or air? I don't get it.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Tom Bishop on September 25, 2013, 02:55:01 PM
What I meant by being a contributor was obviously an intention to become a peer. Can I be a peer? Do you have an RE peer?

Markjo is a peer, and an RE'er. I trust him not to destroy the Wiki. As a non-peer, if you would like to see changes made to the wiki I would suggest making threads which put article in it up for discussion and we can all make changes as a group consensus.
Title: Re: Shifting Gears and the Bipolar Model
Post by: Cartesian on September 27, 2013, 04:04:15 AM
What I meant by being a contributor was obviously an intention to become a peer. Can I be a peer? Do you have an RE peer?

Markjo is a peer, and an RE'er. I trust him not to destroy the Wiki. As a non-peer, if you would like to see changes made to the wiki I would suggest making threads which put article in it up for discussion and we can all make changes as a group consensus.

Thank you for the information. My point actually was to show that the wiki is biased towards the FE. I don't mind it being biased because that's your own wiki. What I mind was that you were using it as if it was the truth.

I say that Occam's Razor actually supports FET: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Occam%27s_Razor (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Occam%27s_Razor)