The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Q&A => Topic started by: rottingroom on August 27, 2013, 01:46:12 PM
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Can a flat earther explain these tracks of hurricanes? This artist mock-up shows 170 hurricane tracks. Why would they behave this way on a flat earth?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4MGOLNaiFQg/Uh0GN-yOioI/AAAAAAAAOsk/bxcCjIGGGfw/w886-h499/photo.jpg)
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I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting that hurricanes travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska?
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Why doesn't South America get hurricanes?
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Why doesn't South America get hurricanes?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F)
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I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting that hurricanes travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska?
He posted a map tracking hurricanes. It seems you are suggesting they travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska.
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Why doesn't South America get hurricanes?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F)
that link is great.
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Why doesn't South America get hurricanes?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F)
So you don't know.
::)
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Why doesn't South America get hurricanes?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F)
So you don't know.
::)
no derailing plz.
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Why doesn't South America get hurricanes?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F)
So you don't know.
::)
no derailing plz.
If you don't have hurricane symmetry, how can you claim a symmetrical shape like a globe?
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Why doesn't South America get hurricanes?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Why+doesn%27t+South+America+get+hurricanes%3F)
So you don't know.
::)
no derailing plz.
If you don't have hurricane symmetry, how can you claim a symmetrical shape like a globe?
sigh...
There are three requirements for the formation of tropical revolving storms. They cannot form within 5° of the equator; there must be a pre-existing low pressure system; and the sea surface temperature must be above 26°C. It is this last that causes the problem.
If you look at the areas where these storms form most frequently - the South China Sea and the Caribbean Sea and the other areas like the seas around Australia and the northern Indian ocean, they are all large shallow seas with land or islands in close proximity. The sea surface reaches 26° easily. In the south Atlantic there is very little between the coast of South America and the coast of Africa. It is deep ocean that is on the move. The sea surface temperature seldom reaches 26°C and when it does, it doesn't stay there long enough for a storm to generate.
The warm seas provide the fuel for the system. Evaporation from the sea puts water vapour into the air which condenses as cloud and releases latent heat in doing so. It is the latent heat that fuels the hurricane. If the seas are not warm enough, there is insufficient fuel to get the system going.
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With all that in mind FEers, why do you suppose that hurricanes never form within 5 degrees of the equator?
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Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
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Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
It's like you ignored everything rottingroom wrote.
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Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
What? The water isn't warm enough guy. It may be warm and shallow enough over by Africa but then it has cross the freaking ocean. Just stay on topic.
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Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
It's like you ignored everything rottingroom wrote.
No I read it. I'm also well educated in climatology. I was not satisfied with the answer.
Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
What? The water isn't warm enough guy. It may be warm and shallow enough over by Africa but then it has cross the freaking ocean. Just stay on topic.
No, why are the hurricanes not forming over Africa and coming across the ocean in the southern hemisphere?
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Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
It's like you ignored everything rottingroom wrote.
No I read it. I'm also well educated in climatology. I was not satisfied with the answer.
Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
What? The water isn't warm enough guy. It may be warm and shallow enough over by Africa but then it has cross the freaking ocean. Just stay on topic.
No, why are the hurricanes not forming over Africa and coming across the ocean in the southern hemisphere?
Hurricanes form over water. For someone well educated in climatology it sure doesn't show. I'm an Aerographer's Mate for the US Navy. My job is Meteorology and Oceanography. I spend all day dealing with satellites and weather balloons. Just stop.
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I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting that hurricanes travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska?
He posted a map tracking hurricanes. It seems you are suggesting they travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska.
His map had lines over Kansas and Nebraska. Before moving forward, I would like for the OP to clarify that he believes that hurricanes have traveled as far inland as central USA.
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I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting that hurricanes travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska?
He posted a map tracking hurricanes. It seems you are suggesting they travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska.
His map had lines over Kansas and Nebraska. Before moving forward, I would like for the OP to clarify that he believes that hurricanes have traveled as far inland as central USA.
This is a classic attempt at derailing. The image doesn't look like it goes as far inland as Kansas and I can say without a doubt that it does not reach Nebraska. If it is going as far as Kansas then it would be nothing more than a hurricanes remnants. The point you are trying to make doesn't provide any value to the thread. The tracks shown are the typical tracks of hurricanes nevertheless. My question remains. Can you explain why hurricanes behave this way on a flat earth?
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Questions relevant to the thread. If these tracks are drawn on a flat earth then how do you explain:
1. Why there is no activity on the equator?
2. Why do the tracks go in opposite directions in the north and south hemispheres?
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I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting that hurricanes travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska?
He posted a map tracking hurricanes. It seems you are suggesting they travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska.
His map had lines over Kansas and Nebraska. Before moving forward, I would like for the OP to clarify that he believes that hurricanes have traveled as far inland as central USA.
If you look closely you can actually see that it stays on the coast and doesn't cover any land.
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I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting that hurricanes travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska?
He posted a map tracking hurricanes. It seems you are suggesting they travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska.
His map had lines over Kansas and Nebraska. Before moving forward, I would like for the OP to clarify that he believes that hurricanes have traveled as far inland as central USA.
If you look closely you can actually see that it stays on the coast and doesn't cover any land.
What? The tracks go across half of the continental US. I am not sure you understand how this map works.
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I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting that hurricanes travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska?
He posted a map tracking hurricanes. It seems you are suggesting they travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska.
His map had lines over Kansas and Nebraska. Before moving forward, I would like for the OP to clarify that he believes that hurricanes have traveled as far inland as central USA.
This is a classic attempt at derailing.
How? I asked a question about your picture. Seeing as the picture is 100% of the OP, clarification of the picture's implications is in no way derailing.
Anyways, it's no use talking to you if you are going to deny that there is a line going through central USA. But if you're feeling up to it, I'm curious which hurricane it was that seems to start in Maine and travel south southwest, hitting most of the northeast, southern Ontario/Quebec, Michigan, Wisconcin/Illinois, Iowa, and tailing off around Nebraska/Kansas. I'm not using this question as an argument. I just kinda want to know which of the 170 hurricanes that was.
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I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting that hurricanes travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska?
He posted a map tracking hurricanes. It seems you are suggesting they travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska.
His map had lines over Kansas and Nebraska. Before moving forward, I would like for the OP to clarify that he believes that hurricanes have traveled as far inland as central USA.
If you look closely you can actually see that it stays on the coast and doesn't cover any land.
What? The tracks go across half of the continental US. I am not sure you understand how this map works.
Look at it carefully. Quebec is clearly not covered and the map curves. The tracks just go up the coast.
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I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting that hurricanes travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska?
He posted a map tracking hurricanes. It seems you are suggesting they travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska.
His map had lines over Kansas and Nebraska. Before moving forward, I would like for the OP to clarify that he believes that hurricanes have traveled as far inland as central USA.
If you look closely you can actually see that it stays on the coast and doesn't cover any land.
What? The tracks go across half of the continental US. I am not sure you understand how this map works.
Look at it carefully. Quebec is clearly not covered and the map curves. The tracks just go up the coast.
What is your screen resolution?
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I don't quite understand. Are you suggesting that hurricanes travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska?
He posted a map tracking hurricanes. It seems you are suggesting they travel as far inland as Kansas and Nebraska.
His map had lines over Kansas and Nebraska. Before moving forward, I would like for the OP to clarify that he believes that hurricanes have traveled as far inland as central USA.
This is a classic attempt at derailing.
How? I asked a question about your picture. Seeing as the picture is 100% of the OP, clarification of the picture's implications is in no way derailing.
Anyways, it's no use talking to you if you are going to deny that there is a line going through central USA. But if you're feeling up to it, I'm curious which hurricane it was that seems to start in Maine and travel south southwest, hitting most of the northeast, southern Ontario/Quebec, Michigan, Wisconcin/Illinois, Iowa, and tailing off around Nebraska/Kansas. I'm not using this question as an argument. I just kinda want to know which of the 170 hurricanes that was.
How is this a classic attempt at derailing? As you can plainly see, you have succeeded, the thread is derailed.
The point of the OP was to talk about why hurricanes move the way they do. I only posted the picture as a reference. Now you want to talk about specific hurricanes as if that has anything to do with this thread or even this forum.
And what are you smoking? One starts in Maine? GTFO of my thread you troll.
The specific tracks are not that relevant. I think we can all agree that hurricanes in the northern hemisphere follow a clockwise (anti-cyclonic) track and hurricanes in the southern hemisphere follow a counter-clockwise (cyclonic) track. I think we can also agree that they don't form, not do they cross the equator. There is a round earth explanation that perfectly explains this and I'm asking for a flat earth explanation. If there is a flat earther that can take the topic seriously, then please try.
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It probably has to do with the air and sea currents near the equator. The Moon and Sun may play a role in the way that hurricanes move as well.
I know that you are going to say it is because the world turns.
Look at it carefully. Quebec is clearly not covered and the map curves. The tracks just go up the coast.
Here, I enlarged the US for you. Can you see the lines across half of the US and part of Canada now?
(http://i739.photobucket.com/albums/xx38/jorroa5990/tracks_zpscee0a5ab.png)
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It probably has to do with the air and sea currents near the equator. The Moon and Sun may play a role in the way that hurricanes move as well.
I know that you are going to say it is because the world turns.
Well of course that is what I think, I just want to hear a flat earth explanation for this well known phenomenon. Also, you are aware that according to round earthers (translation: everyone) the currents are caused by many things but at the equator the same forces effecting hurricanes are also effecting currents and winds.
Observations show that no hurricanes form within 5 degrees latitude of the equator. People argue that the Coriolis force is too weak there to get air to rotate around a low pressure rather than flow from high to low pressure, which it does initially. If you can't get the air to rotate you can't get a storm. This is a reason why genesis does not occur at low latitudes.
BTW fephoenix.... As much as I agree with nearly every point you've been making in these forums I think you are incorrect in this instance. It does appear to me that the image shows storms reaching over land. This is okay though because neither myself nor the image determined what level of tropical storm the tracks show before the line stops being drawn. Storms do go over land but then die off after some time and dissipate. As I mentioned before, the ends of these tracks could merely be the remnants of these storms. Also, as I mentioned earlier, this image is merely being used as a reference and bringing light to these specifics are not relevant to the reason why I started this thread in the first place.
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It probably has to do with the air and sea currents near the equator. The Moon and Sun may play a role in the way that hurricanes move as well.
I know that you are going to say it is because the world turns.
Well of course that is what I think, I just want to hear a flat earth explanation for this well known phenomenon. Also, you are aware that according to round earthers (translation: everyone) the currents are caused by many things but at the equator the same forces effecting hurricanes are also effecting currents and winds.
Observations show that no hurricanes form within 5 degrees latitude of the equator. People argue that the Coriolis force is too weak there to get air to rotate around a low pressure rather than flow from high to low pressure, which it does initially. If you can't get the air to rotate you can't get a storm. This is a reason why genesis does not occur at low latitudes.
BTW fephoenix.... As much as I agree with nearly every point you've been making in these forums I think you are incorrect in this instance. It does appear to me that the image shows storms reaching over land. This is okay though because neither myself nor the image determined what level of tropical storm the tracks show before the line stops being drawn. Storms do go over land but then die off after some time and dissipate. As I mentioned before, the ends of these tracks could merely be the remnants of these storms. Also, as I mentioned earlier, this image is merely being used as a reference and bringing light to these specifics are not relevant to the reason why I started this thread in the first place.
Yeah sorry. I was on my phone and it was small so I didn't see the thin lines. Either way it is irrelevant as you have mentioned before.
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In fact just recently tropical storm Iva just came across the gulf of mexico before hitting northern mexico and southern Texas. Its remnants reached as far as eastern California and that wasn't even a hurricane. It was only a tropical storm. So again, a moot point.
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Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
It's like you ignored everything rottingroom wrote.
No I read it. I'm also well educated in climatology. I was not satisfied with the answer.
Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
What? The water isn't warm enough guy. It may be warm and shallow enough over by Africa but then it has cross the freaking ocean. Just stay on topic.
No, why are the hurricanes not forming over Africa and coming across the ocean in the southern hemisphere?
Hurricanes form over water. For someone well educated in climatology it sure doesn't show. I'm an Aerographer's Mate for the US Navy. My job is Meteorology and Oceanography. I spend all day dealing with satellites and weather balloons. Just stop.
If you look at your own maps you ignorant idiot, you will see that hurricanes form from hot continental air that is subsequently driven over an ocean. No ocean is warm enough to create a hurricane by itself. >:(
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Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
It's like you ignored everything rottingroom wrote.
No I read it. I'm also well educated in climatology. I was not satisfied with the answer.
Hurricanes are not coming across the Soutern Atlantic from Africa, where all the criteria are met. Round Earth theory shudders to a halt.
What? The water isn't warm enough guy. It may be warm and shallow enough over by Africa but then it has cross the freaking ocean. Just stay on topic.
No, why are the hurricanes not forming over Africa and coming across the ocean in the southern hemisphere?
Hurricanes form over water. For someone well educated in climatology it sure doesn't show. I'm an Aerographer's Mate for the US Navy. My job is Meteorology and Oceanography. I spend all day dealing with satellites and weather balloons. Just stop.
If you look at your own maps you ignorant idiot, you will see that hurricanes form from hot continental air that is subsequently driven over an ocean. No ocean is warm enough to create a hurricane by itself. >:(
Warm continental air will create a land breeze. That's about it. Once again this is about the tracks and why they would do this on a flat earth model. Still have not seen one explanation. Just nit picking over the picture.
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I want to know on a round earth, why hurricanes do not occur in the Southern Atlantic. Something about your map/theory is wrong.
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I want to know on a round earth, why hurricanes do not occur in the Southern Atlantic. Something about your map/theory is wrong.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+hurricanes+do+not+occur+in+the+Southern+Atlantic (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+hurricanes+do+not+occur+in+the+Southern+Atlantic)
Here's one answer from about 30 seconds of research:
"They do but not very often. There are three requirements for the formation of tropical revolving storms. They cannot form within 5° of the equator; there must be a pre-existing low pressure system; and the sea surface temperature must be above 26°C. It is this last that causes the problem.
If you look at the areas where these storms form most frequently - the South China Sea and the Caribbean Sea and the other areas like the seas around Australia and the northern Indian ocean, they are all large shallow seas with land or islands in close proximity. The sea surface reaches 26° easily. In the south Atlantic there is very little between the coast of South America and the coast of Africa. It is deep ocean that is on the move. The sea surface temperature seldom reaches 26°C and when it does, it doesn't stay there long enough for a storm to generate.
The warm seas provide the fuel for the system. Evaporation from the sea puts water vapor into the air which condenses as cloud and releases latent heat in doing so. It is the latent heat that fuels the hurricane. If the seas are not warm enough, there is insufficient fuel to get the system going."
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World temperature maps suggest something is wrong with your maps or your theory. Why are hurricanes not hitting Brazil?
(http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0272771407004398-gr2.jpg)
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I want to know on a round earth, why hurricanes do not occur in the Southern Atlantic. Something about your map/theory is wrong.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+hurricanes+do+not+occur+in+the+Southern+Atlantic (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+hurricanes+do+not+occur+in+the+Southern+Atlantic)
Here's one answer from about 30 seconds of research:
"They do but not very often. There are three requirements for the formation of tropical revolving storms. They cannot form within 5° of the equator; there must be a pre-existing low pressure system; and the sea surface temperature must be above 26°C. It is this last that causes the problem.
If you look at the areas where these storms form most frequently - the South China Sea and the Caribbean Sea and the other areas like the seas around Australia and the northern Indian ocean, they are all large shallow seas with land or islands in close proximity. The sea surface reaches 26° easily. In the south Atlantic there is very little between the coast of South America and the coast of Africa. It is deep ocean that is on the move. The sea surface temperature seldom reaches 26°C and when it does, it doesn't stay there long enough for a storm to generate.
The warm seas provide the fuel for the system. Evaporation from the sea puts water vapor into the air which condenses as cloud and releases latent heat in doing so. It is the latent heat that fuels the hurricane. If the seas are not warm enough, there is insufficient fuel to get the system going."
Is it even debatable as to where hurricanes go and where they come from. Why is this guy asking such dumb questions that detract from the relevance of the thread. As I said, he is attempting to derail it.
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World temperature maps suggest something is wrong with your maps or your theory. Why are hurricanes not hitting Brazil?
(http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0272771407004398-gr2.jpg)
What? I don't dispute the map you are posting. What theory? Are the tracks of hurricanes controversial?
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Is it even debatable as to where hurricanes go and where they come from. Why is this guy asking such dumb questions that detract from the relevance of the thread. As I said, he is attempting to derail it.
You cannot say, "Here is our theory (which I can't explain). Now please explain yours."
World temperature maps suggest something is wrong with your maps or your theory. Why are hurricanes not hitting Brazil?
(http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0272771407004398-gr2.jpg)
What? I don't dispute the map you are posting. What theory? Are the tracks of hurricanes controversial?
Why no hurricanes hitting Brazil? The earth is a ball. You are claiming these patterns are driven by Coriolis. So why is Coriolis not driving hurricanes from Africa into Brazil? The conditions are perfect. Coriolis should take them that way. Why is it not working?
My answer is that you are wrong about earth being a spinning ball.
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Is it even debatable as to where hurricanes go and where they come from. Why is this guy asking such dumb questions that detract from the relevance of the thread. As I said, he is attempting to derail it.
You cannot say, "Here is our theory (which I can't explain). Now please explain yours."
World temperature maps suggest something is wrong with your maps or your theory. Why are hurricanes not hitting Brazil?
(http://origin-ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0272771407004398-gr2.jpg)
What? I don't dispute the map you are posting. What theory? Are the tracks of hurricanes controversial?
Why no hurricanes hitting Brazil? The earth is a ball. You are claiming these patterns are driven my Coriolis. So why is Coriolis not driving hurricanes from Africa into Brazil? The conditions are perfect. Coriolis should take them that way. Why is it not working?
My answer is that you are wrong about earth being a spinning ball.
24C is 75F, you need water to be 80F for a hurricane to generate. So the areas on your map that show red areas do not specifically correlate to water being hot enough for genesis. Also the areas near Africa shown in red are within about 5 degrees of the Equator which is, again... a place where genesis cannot occur. Now go away.
Edit: typo... water needs to be 80F not 80C... obviously.
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Your map actually drives my point home more than it helps you.
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24C is 75F, you need water to be 80F for a hurricane to generate. So the areas on your map that show red areas do not specifically correlate to water being hot enough for genesis. Also the areas near Africa shown in red are within about 5 degrees of the Equator which is, again... a place where genesis cannot occur. Now go away.
Edit: typo... water needs to be 80F not 80C... obviously.
::)
> means more than. Not equal to. Let me give you another map. This one is from NASA so you'll enjoy this.
(http://icp.giss.nasa.gov/research/ppa/1997/oceanchars/lev_t.gif)
Same bit of water is more than 28 degrees centigrade which is 82.4 degees farenheit. Hot enough for hurricanes. I'll also draw your attention to the fact that these are AVERAGE sea temperatures and that it gets very much hotter in the summer (our winter).
So, why no hurricanes in Brazil?
Your map actually drives my point home more than it helps you.
You only think that because you don't understand it.
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It is too close to the equator.
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It is too close to the equator.
The location of Sao Paulo is 23° 32' 0" S / 46° 37' 0" W.
It only needs to be 5°S. Its 18 degrees further than that. Its not too close to the equator.
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Why no hurricanes hitting Brazil? The earth is a ball. You are claiming these patterns are driven by Coriolis. So why is Coriolis not driving hurricanes from Africa into Brazil? The conditions are perfect. Coriolis should take them that way. Why is it not working?
My answer is that you are wrong about earth being a spinning ball.
You apparently ignored my previous answer, so I'll iterate.
Three things are required for a hurricane to form: the first being that it's not within 5 degrees of the equator; the second being a low-pressure system; the third being water warmer than 26 degrees.
Places that see the most hurricanes are where the ocean is pretty shallow, such as the Caribbean Sea, allowing the water to more easily reach the required temperature. The Atlantic Ocean between South America and Africa isn't shallow, and is thus usually colder than the Caribbean.
Brazil is also close to the equator, as are the parts of Africa that might get the required conditions for hurricanes. But hurricanes can't form close to the equator, so there wouldn't be any hurricanes to transfer from Africa to South America.
Third, I'm not sure how often the central Atlantic gets low-pressure systems in which hurricanes could form. So even if the other two conditions were met, evidence goes to show that there just isn't any low-pressure system available.
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Why no hurricanes hitting Brazil? The earth is a ball. You are claiming these patterns are driven by Coriolis. So why is Coriolis not driving hurricanes from Africa into Brazil? The conditions are perfect. Coriolis should take them that way. Why is it not working?
My answer is that you are wrong about earth being a spinning ball.
You apparently ignored my previous answer, so I'll iterate.
No, I read it, you must have missed my reply. I'll reiterate.
Three things are required for a hurricane to form: the first being that it's not within 5 degrees of the equator [check]; the second being a low-pressure system[check] ; the third being water warmer than 26 degrees.[check]
You're move.
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Why no hurricanes hitting Brazil? The earth is a ball. You are claiming these patterns are driven by Coriolis. So why is Coriolis not driving hurricanes from Africa into Brazil? The conditions are perfect. Coriolis should take them that way. Why is it not working?
My answer is that you are wrong about earth being a spinning ball.
You apparently ignored my previous answer, so I'll iterate.
No, I read it, you must have missed my reply. I'll reiterate.
Three things are required for a hurricane to form: the first being that it's not within 5 degrees of the equator [check]; the second being a low-pressure system[check] ; the third being water warmer than 26 degrees.[check]
You're move.
You make very good points but it seems cyclone formation is not dependent only on those three criteria. I found this after a short search:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Atlantic_tropical_cyclone (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Atlantic_tropical_cyclone)
Food for thought.
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Specifics aside about whether he makes good points or not I'm not sure what he is getting at.Is there a dispute about where hurricanes start and the tracks they make? Doesn't this map show generally what hurricanes do? Why are we arguing about hurricane criteria? These points are irrelevant.
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Specifics aside about whether he makes good points or not I'm not sure what he is getting at.Is there a dispute about where hurricanes start and the tracks they make? Doesn't this map show generally what hurricanes do? Why are we arguing about hurricane criteria? These points are irrelevant.
Sorry for feeding him. I thought if I pointed out there was more to it than his reductionist posting that he might go away. I hope someone attempts to address your post soon.
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So, why no hurricanes in Brazil?
Wind shear.
http://www.wunderground.com/education/shear.asp (http://www.wunderground.com/education/shear.asp)
In his classic 1968 paper, "Global View of the Origin of Tropical Disturbances and Storms", Dr. Gray writes:
"In the SW Atlantic and central Pacific, where tropical storms do not occur, the observed climatological tropospheric wind shear is large (i.e., 20-40 kt). This is believed to be the major inhibitor to development in these areas. Large vertical wind shears do not allow for area concentration of the tropospheric distributed cumulonimbus condensation. Large shears produce a large ventilation of heat away from the developing disturbance. The condensation heat released by the cumulus to the upper troposphere is adverted in a different direction relative to the released heat at lower levels. Concentration of heat through the entire troposphere becomes more difficult.
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Ævan
If your well educated in climatology you should know that you can't use that to say your an expert in Meteorology which is the actual field that relates to the study of hurricanes.
Assuming you know something about the weather can you explain how any atmospheric circulation is possible on a flat earth experiencing universal acceleration??
As has been pointed out hurricanes are low pressure areas that are moving through the atmosphere.
An upward accelerating earth would cause a pressure wave, effectively pinning all air to it in continuous high pressure.
The fact the atmosphere circulates at all is strong evidence to disprove universal acceleration.
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Ævan
If your well educated in climatology you should know that you can't use that to say your an expert in Meteorology which is the actual field that relates to the study of hurricanes.
I have studied Meteorology (climatology being a sub-section that I excelled in). I actually got 97% in my commercial pilot exam in Meteorology. I also studied it at college. I was very good at it.
Assuming you know something about the weather can you explain how any atmospheric circulation is possible on a flat earth experiencing universal acceleration??
Are you suggesting you need Coriolis to have weather? This is silly. Weather is generated by moisture in the atmosphere, heat and pressure changes. None of which need a whirling spinning ball.
As has been pointed out hurricanes are low pressure areas that are moving through the atmosphere.
An upward accelerating earth would cause a pressure wave, effectively pinning all air to it in continuous high pressure.
Please study Einstein's equivalence principle. An acceleration upwards would no more create high pressure than gravity would by pulling air down. You are making wild and unsupported claims and destroying the credibility of your argument.
The fact the atmosphere circulates at all is strong evidence to disprove universal acceleration.
No. the atmosphere circulates because we have a diurnal cycle and some bits are hotter than other bits. I haven't needed any of my meteorology education up to this point because you are struggling with the basic principles of how weather systems work.
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Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.
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Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.
Thork does that. He derailed a question about the differences in constellations in the two hemispheres by complaining about the naming convention for the constellations. It's pretty poor behavior.
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Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.
??? Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?
Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.
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Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.
??? Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?
Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.
Which begs the question: Why do the trade winds follow the course they do? Here's a hint: It's the same cause.
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Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.
??? Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?
Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.
Which begs the question: Why do the trade winds follow the course they do? Here's a hint: It's the same cause.
Make a new thread. This one is about hurricanes.
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Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.
??? Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?
Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.
Which begs the question: Why do the trade winds follow the course they do? Here's a hint: It's the same cause.
Make a new thread. This one is about hurricanes.
Congratulations on lawyering your way out of a meaningful reply.
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Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.
??? Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?
Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.
Are you going to keep dodging everything that comes your way? I did not set out to prove Coriolis. The picture in the op shows the basic tracks of hurricanes. This is a depiction of recorded data. You don't have to believe in Coriolis to accept that these tracks are real. Can you just leave the thread, you are not contributing a thing okay Mr. I got a 97% in school and nobody gives a shit.
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Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.
??? Hurricanes follow the trade winds. Did you mean to make a thread about trade winds on a flat earth?
Your clumsy attempt to 'prove Coriolis' missed the mark because you didn't know enough about the example you picked.
Which begs the question: Why do the trade winds follow the course they do? Here's a hint: It's the same cause.
Make a new thread. This one is about hurricanes.
No this thread is not about hurricanes. It is about hurricane tracks. You have devolved this thread into being about hurricanes and gotten everyone to talk about hurricane criteria which for maybe 5th time, is irrelevant to the thread. You say hurricanes follow trade winds... That's relevant! So his question was completely on topic unlike all of your contentions.
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Well it appears this has been completely derailed. Zero attempts at explaining why hurricanes produce these tracks on a flat earth. Just some guy trying to talk about what causes hurricanes for some reason.
I did try to offer explanations. Take your fingers out of your ears and at least acknowledge that you got answers, even if you do not like the answers you got.
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Recap, and attempt to pull the thread back on-topic:
rottingroom: Can a flat earther explain these tracks of hurricanes? This artist mock-up shows 170 hurricane tracks. Why would they behave this way on a flat earth?
jroa: It probably has to do with the air and sea currents near the equator. The Moon and Sun may play a role in the way that hurricanes move as well.
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I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise. Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP. This is just an exercise in free thought.
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Recap, and attempt to pull the thread back on-topic:
rottingroom: Can a flat earther explain these tracks of hurricanes? This artist mock-up shows 170 hurricane tracks. Why would they behave this way on a flat earth?
jroa: It probably has to do with the air and sea currents near the equator. The Moon and Sun may play a role in the way that hurricanes move as well.
Right yes and I responded to that. That is when I brought up the coriolis. Jroa brought air and sea currents so I brought up what causes (or at least plays a major part) in those. So I appreciate that jroa did attempt to add something. It wasn't that I didn't like his answer, it just didn't say much. Hurricane tracks caused by winds and seas? Well like you said, it begs the question, "what causes those?"
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I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise. Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP. This is just an exercise in free thought.
Well to be honest that's what makes it a good topic in favor of round earthers. Cause on a flat earth it makes no sense. Its pretty darn good proof that something like the coriolis is happening and that the earth is spinning. So if I was a flat earther I would probably just say, "what the hell was I thinking? A flat earth.... Really?"
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I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise. Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP. This is just an exercise in free thought.
Well to be honest that's what makes it a good topic in favor of round earthers. Cause on a flat earth it makes no sense. Its pretty darn good proof that something like the coriolis is happening and that the earth is spinning. So if I was a flat earther I would probably just say, "what the hell was I thinking? A flat earth.... Really?"
That is the best you can come up with? You seem to be too lazy to try to come up with an original idea. Seriously, please give it a try.
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I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise. Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP. This is just an exercise in free thought.
I would probably just make something up involving aether or whatever.
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I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise. Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP. This is just an exercise in free thought.
I would probably just make something up involving aether or whatever.
That is very interesting. Please elaborate on this theory.
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Well does it make sense? The flat earth models with Antarctica as the ice wall give the equator no significance. There is nothing special about it at all. So how would you explain currents and winds going in opposite directions at that exact point? You would have to come up with something silly like UA or moonshrimp or bendy light or a spotlight sun or an ice dome. Its just nonsense and I really think that you know it.
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Well does it make sense? The flat earth models with Antarctica as the ice wall give the equator no significance. There is nothing special about it at all. So how would you explain currents and winds going in opposite directions at that exact point? You would have to come up with something silly like UA or moonshrimp or bendy light or a spotlight sun or an ice dome. Its just nonsense and I really think that you know it.
I said I was proposing a thought experiment. I just want to see what kind of answers RE'ers can come up with. They don't have to 100% accurate. Just, for one post, put yourself inside a FE mind and come up with something new.
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I am not trying to derail this thread, but since it is dead anyway, I want to ask our RE brothers to try a thought exercise. Imagine that you are an FE'er and give your best explanation for the OP. This is just an exercise in free thought.
Well to be honest that's what makes it a good topic in favor of round earthers. Cause on a flat earth it makes no sense. Its pretty darn good proof that something like the coriolis is happening and that the earth is spinning. So if I was a flat earther I would probably just say, "what the hell was I thinking? A flat earth.... Really?"
That is the best you can come up with? You seem to be too lazy to try to come up with an original idea. Seriously, please give it a try.
Okay, I'll try to be as zetetic as possible.
I see that hurricanes tend to travel westward until they turn away from the equator. Then they invariably head eastward. This matches the general wind patterns (http://www.clipart.dk.co.uk/DKImages/sci_earth/image_sci_earth055.jpg), which makes a lot of sense (a storm driven by wind? Who knew?!)
It begs the question of wind patterns, though. It seems as winds travel away from the equator they head east, and if they're moving away form the poles they head west. Now, air tends to flow from high-pressure to low-pressure, meaning the winds should be traveling from the poles (cold = higher pressure) to the equator (hot = lower pressure), which we see they do. But then the air warms and goes back up and probably heads back to the poles.
But this doesn't explain why they go west coming form the poles and east going to them.
But looking at these wind current maps, it's almost as if there's some kind of inertia happening. Like, maybe the poles are moving westward, and as the wind travels south it keeps this westward velocity, dragging it west. And the air from the equator, heading north, is lagging behind the poles, so it heads east.
No, but the poles are stationary. We know that because the stars don't move very much in those areas. What if it's the other way around--the equator's moving east. The hot air moving north from the equator overshoots the poles and is directed east, and air coming from the poles lags behind, heading west.
But on a flat Earth, that would mean air going south from the equator would also be directed west, as lands south of the equator are moving even faster. It almost looks like the south pole is also stationary, as the fast equatorial winds are carried ahead of the land.
But what shape can have two stationary places with a belt that moves relatively quickly? It's almost as if this happens on a rotating sphere!
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Okay I got it. Maybe the equator on a flat earth is like a drain. The earth swallows the oceans up and then it gets drained out the bottom of the earth. Then the water turns to ice and joins the ice dome. The icy dome on top releases water back onto the earth in the form of precipitation and the water it precipitates is replaced by drained water from the ocean. Is that nonsensical enough for you?
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Firstly on topic:
The reason these tracks are so long is because they seem to track the whole system from start to finish. This means beyond their classification as a hurricane which it may only be for a small part of its entire life span. See below and note where the warnings are. The system continues well inland and probably beyond the track shown, but its then only a low pressure system.
http://www.stormtracker.noaa.gov/stormtracker-frances-demo.htm (http://www.stormtracker.noaa.gov/stormtracker-frances-demo.htm)
(http://i.imgur.com/AWRqPGd.gif)
Secondly:
Ævan
If your well educated in climatology you should know that you can't use that to say your an expert in Meteorology which is the actual field that relates to the study of hurricanes.
I have studied Meteorology (climatology being a sub-section that I excelled in). I actually got 97% in my commercial pilot exam in Meteorology. I also studied it at college. I was very good at it.
Assuming you know something about the weather can you explain how any atmospheric circulation is possible on a flat earth experiencing universal acceleration??
Are you suggesting you need Coriolis to have weather? This is silly. Weather is generated by moisture in the atmosphere, heat and pressure changes. None of which need a whirling spinning ball.
As has been pointed out hurricanes are low pressure areas that are moving through the atmosphere.
An upward accelerating earth would cause a pressure wave, effectively pinning all air to it in continuous high pressure.
Please study Einstein's equivalence principle. An acceleration upwards would no more create high pressure than gravity would by pulling air down. You are making wild and unsupported claims and destroying the credibility of your argument.
The fact the atmosphere circulates at all is strong evidence to disprove universal acceleration.
No. the atmosphere circulates because we have a diurnal cycle and some bits are hotter than other bits. I haven't needed any of my meteorology education up to this point because you are struggling with the basic principles of how weather systems work.
IF you're a commercial airline pilot can you provide some answers to this thread please your the perfect person to answer.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,59549.0.html#.UiDzTDbvvO1 (http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,59549.0.html#.UiDzTDbvvO1)
For a start climatology is not a subsection of meteorology they are both separate areas of atmospheric study and whilst related, climatology is not a subsection. This is silly of you to suggest. Let me define climatology:
cli·ma·tol·o·gy [klahy-muh-tol-uh-jee] Show IPA
noun
the science that deals with the phenomena of climates or climatic conditions.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/climatology (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/climatology)
Weather, eg Meteorology relates and has an input into climate but is not all of it. Climate is the long term average of weather for an area. It does not require an in depth knowledge of hurricane formation.
Coriolis is what causes the weather to rotate. e.g. Low pressure systems, hurricanes and tornadoes to names a few. Rising heat and moisture are what drive them but they alone are not responsible for the spinning. We are talking about rotation and direction in this thread please read slowly and think.
As for Einstein here's a quote "The naïve picture of the earth as a flat disc, combined with obscure ideas about star-filled space and the motions of the celestial bodies, prevalent in the early Middle Ages, represented a deterioration of the much earlier conceptions of the Greeks, and in particular of Aristotles ideas and Ptolemys consistent spatial concept of the celestial bodies and their motions."
He is your worst enemy as far as your concerned, don't try to use he theories to support you ideas , same goes for Galileo. Besides you contradict yourself, equivalence means that the air would create an equal force back all the time, which is why we make things aerodynamic. Gravity relates to mass which is why the air does not need to push back with a force.
This is not the thread to argue about gravity.
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Firstly on topic:
The reason these tracks are so long is because they seem to track the whole system from start to finish. This means beyond their classification as a hurricane which it may only be for a small part of its entire life span. See below and note where the warnings are. The system continues well inland and probably beyond the track shown, but its then only a low pressure system.
Yes this is what I suggested when I mentioned that it is the remnants of a hurricane. Your explanation was easier to understand for the FEers and I thank you for that.
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Firstly on topic:
The reason these tracks are so long is because they seem to track the whole system from start to finish. This means beyond their classification as a hurricane which it may only be for a small part of its entire life span. See below and note where the warnings are. The system continues well inland and probably beyond the track shown, but its then only a low pressure system.
Yes this is what I suggested when I mentioned that it is the remnants of a hurricane. Your explanation was easier to understand for the FEers and I thank you for that.
Flat Earth science can not explain hurricane tracks.
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Firstly on topic:
The reason these tracks are so long is because they seem to track the whole system from start to finish. This means beyond their classification as a hurricane which it may only be for a small part of its entire life span. See below and note where the warnings are. The system continues well inland and probably beyond the track shown, but its then only a low pressure system.
Yes this is what I suggested when I mentioned that it is the remnants of a hurricane. Your explanation was easier to understand for the FEers and I thank you for that.
Flat Earth science can not explain hurricane tracks.
Nope, there is no good explanation. Hence, why hardly any FEers took on this thread and why the ones who did attempt it did everything they could to derail it.
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You know what, I'm an REer, so challenge accepted.
The charged atmospheric ions in the hurricane could possibly be attracted toward the magnetic north pole, and only hurricanes last long enough to be affected by earth's EMF because at lower altitudes it isn't quite as strong as say in the upper levels of the atmosphere.
If this sounds like bunk forgive me. I know little of charged particles within storms, but then again, I'm trying to argue a claim for the side I don't agree with, so it's probably not the strongest argument.
Edit-The charge could possibly strengthen with the storm, causing the sharp turn around, coincidently, just as it hits the American lands.
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You know what, I'm an REer, so challenge accepted.
The charged atmospheric ions in the hurricane could possibly be attracted toward the magnetic north pole, and only hurricanes last long enough to be affected by earth's EMF because at lower altitudes it isn't quite as strong as say in the upper levels of the atmosphere.
If this sounds like bunk forgive me. I know little of charged particles within storms, but then again, I'm trying to argue a claim for the side I don't agree with, so it's probably not the strongest argument.
Edit-The charge could possibly strengthen with the storm, causing the sharp turn around, coincidentally, just as it hits the American lands.
I'm sorry to throw a spanner in your works but the actual position of the magnetic north pole is mobile.
http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/GeomagneticPoles.shtml (http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/GeomagneticPoles.shtml)
But most importantly its not actually at the geographic north pole, which seems to be FE popular center of the earth. Under that theory the hurricanes / low pressure systems would go straight to Canada and stay there. In reality they do not and actually travel away from magnetic north at some points. Southern hemisphere cyclones turn away from magnetic north also.
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Ah, You're right. I thought magnetic north lies toward Greenland which nails the coffin in this theory. But corealis can't explain the northern path either. Corealis causes eastern drift on north or south moving objects, so to say it's causing an eastern moving body to drift north is wrong. Maybe it's just a combination of air pressure, climatic winds, and sea currents. Again, I'm no meteorologist.
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Ah, You're right. I thought magnetic north lies toward Greenland which nails the coffin in this theory. But corealis can't explain the northern path either. Corealis causes eastern drift on north or south moving objects, so to say it's causing an eastern moving body to drift north is wrong. Maybe it's just a combination of air pressure, climatic winds, and sea currents. Again, I'm no meteorologist.
Those are things affected by the coriolis too.
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Oh yeah. So hurricanes are indirectly affected by corealis?
At this point I'm not even thinking flat vs. round. I wanna know how those storms change direction so suddenly.
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Oh yeah. So hurricanes are indirectly affected by corealis?
At this point I'm not even thinking flat vs. round. I wanna know how those storms change direction so suddenly.
I'd always heard they just follow low-pressure corridors. That's why we can (kinda) predict where they're going to go. Maybe something about a coastal area creates low-pressure areas, and so when the hurricane falls into one it will continue following it, like a car in a rut.
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Oh yeah. So hurricanes are indirectly affected by corealis?
At this point I'm not even thinking flat vs. round. I wanna know how those storms change direction so suddenly.
The hurricane is generated in warm waters near the equator (but not within 5°). In the northern hemisphere they initially start heading west because that is the direction of currents near the equator. The whole ocean current system itself is constantly effected by the coriolis and is basically in a constant predictable pattern along with the winds as well so this (and of course land masses changing the direction of currents) is what drives it away from the equator along with the high pressure systems associated with this warm weather as well. Once it gets far enough from the equator coriolis then pushes it eastward. This also explains the typically anti cyclonic (or clockwise) rotation of a hurricane in the northern hemisphere.
Imagine it like this. Say you and a friend are on opposite sides of a merry go round going clockwise and throwing a ball at each other. The ball is like the hurricane. As you and this other person toss the ball toward each other the ball stays with you as you are holding it but each time you toss it it gets deflected to the right. So you can imagine and expect that to catch the ball you would have to move your arms to the left as the ball is coming toward you.
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To add... In the southern hemisphere objects get deflected to the left. Using the merry go round example, imagine the same scenario but you and your friend are upside tossing the ball. Now you can see why the ball gets deflected to the left. This is pretty hard evidence of a spherical earth.
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Imagine it like this. Say you and a friend are on opposite sides of a merry go round going clockwise and throwing a ball at each other. The ball is like the hurricane. As you and this other person toss the ball toward each other the ball stays with you as you are holding it but each time you toss it it gets deflected to the right. So you can imagine and expect that to catch the ball you would have to move your arms to the left as the ball is coming toward you.
What does this have to do with anything? All this proves is that the person didn't throw the ball fast enough to reach the other person spinning. ::)
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The hurricane is generated in warm waters near the equator (but not within 5°). In the northern hemisphere they initially start heading west because that is the direction of currents near the equator. The whole ocean current system itself is constantly effected by the coriolis and is basically in a constant predictable pattern along with the winds as well so this (and of course land masses changing the direction of currents) is what drives it away from the equator along with the high pressure systems associated with this warm weather as well. Once it gets far enough from the equator coriolis then pushes it eastward. This also explains the typically anti cyclonic (or clockwise) rotation of a hurricane in the northern hemisphere.
They spin counter-clockwise in the Northern hemi.
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Imagine it like this. Say you and a friend are on opposite sides of a merry go round going clockwise and throwing a ball at each other. The ball is like the hurricane. As you and this other person toss the ball toward each other the ball stays with you as you are holding it but each time you toss it it gets deflected to the right. So you can imagine and expect that to catch the ball you would have to move your arms to the left as the ball is coming toward you.
What does this have to do with anything? All this proves is that the person didn't throw the ball fast enough to reach the other person spinning. ::)
You don't get it?
(http://)
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I want to know on a round earth, why hurricanes do not occur in the Southern Atlantic. Something about your map/theory is wrong.
For the same reason they don't occur on the flat map. They may not occur close to the Equator but they do form where the cooler water meets the warmer water. And the water near South Africa and Brazil is too cool to form one.
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You don't get it?
(http://)
No, I do get it. But I think this is a bad example. Are you using this example to show the merry-go-round is the Earth or the hurricane?
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You don't get it?
(http://)
No, I do get it. But I think this is a bad example. Are you using this example to show the merry-go-round is the Earth or the hurricane?
The merry go round is like the earth. It's a perfectly good example. It shows what happens when an object (the ball) is sent at a velocity perpendicular to the velocity of the rotating object (merry go round). The ball deflects in the same direction as the rotation. Whether you are in the northern or southern hemisphere hurricanes deflect in the same direction as rotation. In the north they deflect right and in the south, to the left. Since (in both the north and south) hurricanes move away from the equator, deflecting right in the north and left in the south is toward the east which is with rotation. Not only do they deflect in this manner but the spins being cyclonic or anti-cyclonic are appropriate as well.
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On RE, the Coriolis effect only explains how a hurricane swirls but I don't think it explains where it is heading. On FE, the Coriolis effect is absent therefore theoretically hurricane cannot even build up (just like the areas near the equator on RE).
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In my opinion, on RE the Coriolis effect only explains how a hurricane swirl but I don't think it explains where it is heading. In FE, the Coriolis effect is absent therefore theoretically hurricane cannot even build up.
How does it not explain it? They start near the equator since that is where the correct conditions for cyclone development are. Initially their direction is caused by currents and trade winds which coincidentally are mostly cause by rotation as well. Six belt-like Hadley Cells circulate air from pole to pole and establish patterns of climate over the planet. The cells are characterized by specific patterns of wind flow, a function of the Coriolis force generated by the spin of the Earth. In the temperate zone between the 30° and 60° latitudes, the prevailing westerlies dominate air circulation. In the tropics, the easterly trade winds dominate. Winds around the poles are also easterly.
(http://www.atmos.washington.edu/gfd_exp/exp_e/doc/bc/images/bc01.gif)
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My point is this. Knowing just Coriolis effect, I can predict with 100% certitude that if there is a hurricane anywhere in the northern hemisphere anytime then it will swirl counterclockwise. Whereas using the same knowledge, I cannot tell exactly where a storm would hit. There are many factors involved in determining the trajectory of a storm, and all these can only be roughly predicted with some degrees of certainty within the next few hours.
For example, this is the path of Katrina in 2005
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Katrina_2005_track.png/800px-Katrina_2005_track.png)
National Hurricane Center did not even mention New Orleans or Louisiana when the storm was first detected (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2005/pub/al122005.public.004.shtml (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2005/pub/al122005.public.004.shtml))
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My point is this. Knowing just Coriolis effect, I can predict with 100% certitude that if there is a hurricane anywhere in the northern hemisphere anytime then it will swirl counterclockwise. Whereas using the same knowledge, I cannot tell exactly where a storm would hit. There are many factors involved in determining the trajectory of a storm, and all these can only be roughly predicted with some degrees of certainty within the next few hours.
For example, this is the path of Katrina in 2005
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Katrina_2005_track.png/800px-Katrina_2005_track.png)
National Hurricane Center did not even mention New Orleans or Louisiana when the storm was first detected (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2005/pub/al122005.public.004.shtml (http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2005/pub/al122005.public.004.shtml))
Yes of course there are other factors, but notice that Coriolis really starts to take effect once it starts to dissipate. That means that other forces are not as prevalent at this point.
Also, the northern hemisphere has swirls in an anti-cyclonic rotation. That is the same as clockwise, not counter-clockwise.
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Yes of course there are other factors, but notice that Coriolis really starts to take effect once it starts to dissipate. That means that other forces are not as prevalent at this point.
Also, the northern hemisphere has swirls in an anti-cyclonic rotation. That is the same as clockwise, not counter-clockwise.
Coriolis effect started as soon as it formed cyclone.
Regarding anticyclones, as far as I know they don't cause hurricanes.
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Yes of course there are other factors, but notice that Coriolis really starts to take effect once it starts to dissipate. That means that other forces are not as prevalent at this point.
Also, the northern hemisphere has swirls in an anti-cyclonic rotation. That is the same as clockwise, not counter-clockwise.
Coriolis effect started as soon as it formed cyclone.
Regarding anticyclones, as far as I know they don't cause hurricanes.
eh, turns out your right about cyclones, I don't know what I was thinking.
As far as Coriolis, I agree that coriolis is working as soon as the cyclone is formed. I'm just suggesting that that it has an easier time diverting to the right in the northern hemisphere once it hits land. This is also where the westerlies are, which coincidentally are the result of convection cells which in turn are caused by divergence and convergence aloft and at the surface as well as Coriolis.
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The Earth isn't spinning. The reason hurricanes spin in opposite directions is because the SUN acts like a jet engine, stirring up the air behind it as it orbits above Earth.
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The Earth isn't spinning. The reason hurricanes spin in opposite directions is because the SUN acts like a jet engine, stirring up the air behind it as it orbits above Earth.
Way to disregard basic observation. Why do you even try to think about this kind of stuff? You obviously don't even care.
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The Earth isn't spinning. The reason hurricanes spin in opposite directions is because the SUN acts like a jet engine, stirring up the air behind it as it orbits above Earth.
I am sure you, or someone who told you about this, are able to provide more detailed explanation why the Sun - while rotating daily to produce day and night and moving up and down the equator to produce summer and winter - always stirs the air counterclockwise anywhere in the northern hemisphere, and clockwise in the southern hemisphere 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Of course you will include a diagram too, won't you.
And also, if it stirs the air like you said then why don't we have hurricane all the time?
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Cartesian,
The warm air from the Equator is drawn toward the colder air in the North and South, creating a counter-clockwise spiral in the North and a clockwise spiral in the South. It's caused by the sun circling, not the Earth spinning.
Rottingman stated in the Google Doodle FP thread:
"Cyclone development is dependent on the temperature of water, yes. They develop all year along the equator, but as far as N. America is concerned, those same cyclone's usually only reach our coasts during the summer months because it is during that time that it is warm enough for those cyclone's to be sustained. During the winter, they still develop near the equator and work their way up toward our east coast but simply dissipate before ever reaching land.
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Cartesian,
The warm air from the Equator is drawn toward the colder air in the North and South, creating a counter-clockwise spiral in the North and a clockwise spiral in the South. It's caused by the sun circling, not the Earth spinning.
I am sorry but I still don't get it. How is it counterclockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere? A diagram for the benefit of all please.
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Cartesian,
The warm air from the Equator is drawn toward the colder air in the North and South, creating a counter-clockwise spiral in the North and a clockwise spiral in the South. It's caused by the sun circling, not the Earth spinning.
Rottingman stated in the Google Doodle FP thread:
"Cyclone development is dependent on the temperature of water, yes. They develop all year along the equator, but as far as N. America is concerned, those same cyclone's usually only reach our coasts during the summer months because it is during that time that it is warm enough for those cyclone's to be sustained. During the winter, they still develop near the equator and work their way up toward our east coast but simply dissipate before ever reaching land.
How does this contradict what Cartesian has said?
They still develop in the winter in the northern hemisphere. You just don't hear about it on the news because they don't come to N. America because they dissipate before getting there. The opposing turning that we observe (which is what we are talking about) and the paths of these tracks are still opposite depending on which side of the equator they develop.
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Rottingman stated in the Google Doodle FP thread:
"Cyclone development is dependent on the temperature of water, yes. They develop all year along the equator, but as far as N. America is concerned, those same cyclone's usually only reach our coasts during the summer months because it is during that time that it is warm enough for those cyclone's to be sustained. During the winter, they still develop near the equator and work their way up toward our east coast but simply dissipate before ever reaching land.
If you are trying to explain the swirling direction based on the hemisphere then I can't see it.
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The warm air from the Equator mixes with the cold air to the North....one direction.
The warm air from the Equator mixes with the cold air to the South...the other direction.
Hence, OPPOSITE directions.
Opposite spirals.
Rottingman's (and the mainstream's) explanation makes less sense for the simple fact that hurricanes wouldn't tend to be "seasonal" if it was caused by the Earth supposedly spinning. If that were the case, they'd occur more often year round.
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The warm air from the Equator mixes with the cold air to the North....one direction.
The warm air from the Equator mixes with the cold air to the South...the other direction.
Hence, OPPOSITE directions.
Opposite spirals.
Rottingman's (and the mainstream's) explanation makes less sense for the simple fact that hurricanes wouldn't tend to be "seasonal" if it was caused by the Earth supposedly spinning. If that were the case, they'd occur more often year round.
Where do you get your info from? There are more places in the world than N. America.
- Atlantic Hurricane Season officially begins on June 1st and ends on November 30th each year. 97% of all tropical cyclones in the Atlantic fall within this period of time. The month most likely to have a hurricane is September.
- Northeast Pacific Hurricane Season begins on May 15th and ends on November 30th each year.
- Northwest Pacific Typhoon Season has no official start or end date since storms commonly occur all year long.
- The North Indian Cyclone Season begins in April and lasts until June. There is typically another heightened period of activity from late September to early December.
Worldwide, tropical cyclone activity peaks in late summer, when the difference between temperatures aloft and sea surface temperatures is the greatest. However, each particular basin has its own seasonal patterns. On a worldwide scale, May is the least active month, while September is the most active. It has more to do with the temperature of the water than it does the heat of the sun on a given day.
Water temperate caused by the sun is a factor in tropical storm development but it is not the only factor. While six factors appear to be necessary, tropical cyclones may occasionally form without meeting all of the following conditions:
- In most situations, water temperatures of at least 79.7 °F are needed down to a depth of at least 50 m (160 ft), waters of this temperature cause the overlying atmosphere to be unstable enough to sustain convection and thunderstorms.
- Another factor is rapid cooling with height, which allows the release of the heat of condensation that powers a tropical cyclone.
- High humidity is needed, especially in the lower-to-mid troposphere; when there is a great deal of moisture in the atmosphere, conditions are more favorable for disturbances to develop.
- Low amounts of wind shear are needed, as high shear is disruptive to the storm's circulation.
- Tropical cyclones generally need to form more than 345 mi (or five degrees of latitude) away from the equator, allowing the Coriolis effect to deflect winds blowing towards the low pressure center and creating a circulation. Because the Coriolis effect initiates and maintains their rotation, tropical cyclones rarely form or move within 5 degrees of the equator, where the effect is weakest.
- Lastly, a formative tropical cyclone needs a pre-existing system of disturbed weather. Tropical cyclones will not form spontaneously.
From wikipedia regarding Coriolis:
"The Earth's rotation imparts an acceleration known as the Coriolis effect, Coriolis acceleration, or colloquially, Coriolis force. This acceleration causes cyclonic systems to turn towards the poles in the absence of strong steering currents. The poleward portion of a tropical cyclone contains easterly winds, and the Coriolis effect pulls them slightly more poleward. The westerly winds on the equatorward portion of the cyclone pull slightly towards the equator, but, because the Coriolis effect weakens toward the equator, the net drag on the cyclone is poleward. Thus, tropical cyclones in the Northern Hemisphere usually turn north (before being blown east), and tropical cyclones in the Southern Hemisphere usually turn south (before being blown east) when no other effects counteract the Coriolis effect."
So yes... it is about the sun's heat, or rather the accumulation of heat by the end of summer combined with the colder temperatures aloft creating this inversion. Hurricanes are dependent on that but they are also dependent on Coriolis and it is the Coriolis that gives them their rotation. Not the sun.
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I wasn't talking about just N. America. All you did by cut and pasting all that was reiterate that the TEMPERATURE causes them, not the Earth spinning. Also, I do not care what Wikipedia says about the Coriolis effect because right off the top it says Earth rotates, which is does not.
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I wasn't talking about just N. America. All you did by cut and pasting all that was reiterate that the TEMPERATURE causes them, not the Earth spinning. Also, I do not care what Wikipedia says about the Coriolis effect because right off the top it says Earth rotates, which is does not.
Water temperature. Not direct heat from the sun. Incidentally this water temp has nothing to do with the rotation. Also that temperature is only 1 of 6 criteria. What source would you like? NOAA? NWS? JTWC? Your pick.
Even in N. America, why is that the most active part of the season in September instead of a hotter time in the summer? Why are they active all year long in the Indian Ocean?
Your hypothesis that it is directly by the sun is silly.
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The warm air from the Equator mixes with the cold air to the North....one direction.
The warm air from the Equator mixes with the cold air to the South...the other direction.
Hence, OPPOSITE directions.
Opposite spirals.
Mixing warm and cold air on a stationary flat earth doesn't explain why the hurricanes spiral in one direction or another.
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The warm air from the Equator mixes with the cold air to the North....one direction.
The warm air from the Equator mixes with the cold air to the South...the other direction.
Hence, OPPOSITE directions.
Opposite spirals.
Mixing warm and cold air on a stationary flat earth doesn't explain why the hurricanes spiral in one direction or another.
I am skeptical about them spinning one direction or the other.
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I am skeptical about them spinning one direction or the other.
When the sun is in the Northern hemisphere, hurricanes spin in one direction and when the sun is in the Southern hemisphere, hurricanes spin the opposite direction.
If you are that certain with your claim then I am sure you are able to provide us with two aerial photos of hurricanes taken from the same hemisphere showing two different spinning direction. It has to be from the same hemisphere. We also need to see the source of your pictures just to verify that both pictures are indeed from the same hemisphere.
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Cartesian,
I see that you took that post from the Google Doodle thread. I clearly stated in my following post on that thread that I did not mean spirals in opposite directions in the SAME hemisphere. Here is my post from that thread:
Re: Google Doodle - 9/18 - Foucault Pendulum
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2013, 05:17:54 AM »
"I guess I should've been clearer. I didn't mean they spin opposites directions in the same hemisphere. I meant they spin in opposite directions in opposite hemispheres only because the sun MOVES closer to one hemisphere than the other, depending on the season. The weather channel is always saying "hurricane season" so naturally, I figured they only occur in the given hemisphere at the given season. Am I wrong?"
Most people here are fully aware that hurricanes spin in opposite directions respectively, not in the same hemisphere.
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That was intended for jroa who is still not convinced that hurricanes spin in the same direction depending on the hemisphere they are located.
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That was intended for jroa who is still not convinced that hurricanes spin in the same direction depending on the hemisphere they are located.
Oh, I see. Faked photos maybe? Well, I guess it's possible.
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Let's wait for what he'll come up with. Anyway, I also specifically mentioned that I needed the source of the pictures as well.
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I haven't posted any photos.
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Cartesian, I have yet to see any credible evidence that hurricanes spin at all, let alone the way you are describing.
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Cartesian, I have yet to see any credible evidence that hurricanes spin at all, let alone the way you are describing.
You doubt that hurricanes rotate?
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Cartesian, I have yet to see any credible evidence that hurricanes spin at all, let alone the way you are describing.
You doubt that hurricanes rotate?
They might rotate, but I am not convinced that they rotate in the manner that RET says they do.
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Cartesian, I have yet to see any credible evidence that hurricanes spin at all, let alone the way you are describing.
I know you don't believe in satellites and all but do you realize that meteorologists depend on the imagery provided by those so called satellites? Where ever they are from they are an extremely valuable tool. The imagery from hurricanes in north hemisphere compared to the south shows some obvious differences.
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Have you seen anything to indicate hurricanes do not rotate in opposite directions depending on whether you are north or south of the equator?
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Cartesian, I have yet to see any credible evidence that hurricanes spin at all, let alone the way you are describing.
I know you don't believe in satellites and all but do you realize that meteorologists depend on the imagery provided by those so called satellites? Where ever they are from they are an extremely valuable tool. The imagery from hurricanes in north hemisphere compared to the south shows some obvious differences.
Doppler radar can be ground based can't it?
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Cartesian, I have yet to see any credible evidence that hurricanes spin at all, let alone the way you are describing.
I know you don't believe in satellites and all but do you realize that meteorologists depend on the imagery provided by those so called satellites? Where ever they are from they are an extremely valuable tool. The imagery from hurricanes in north hemisphere compared to the south shows some obvious differences.
Doppler radar can be ground based can't it?
Absolutely but thats a completely different kind of product compared to a VIS, IR, Microwave, or water vapor image that we get from satellites. The product is overlayed onto a map, showing reflected returns of the radial component of a targets velocity relative to a radar. on the other hand, satellite images (besides microwave satellites, which are like radars) are literally snapshots.
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Cartesian, I have yet to see any credible evidence that hurricanes spin at all, let alone the way you are describing.
Just saying that even someone who does not believe in satellites has ample sources of meteorological data to be convinced of hurricane rotation in the various hemispheres.
I know you don't believe in satellites and all but do you realize that meteorologists depend on the imagery provided by those so called satellites? Where ever they are from they are an extremely valuable tool. The imagery from hurricanes in north hemisphere compared to the south shows some obvious differences.
Doppler radar can be ground based can't it?
Absolutely but thats a completely different kind of product compared to a VIS, IR, Microwave, or water vapor image that we get from satellites. The product is overlayed onto a map, showing reflected returns of the radial component of a targets velocity relative to a radar. on the other hand, satellite images (besides microwave satellites, which are like radars) are literally snapshots.
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Rama,
Why did you repost Rotting's post? Did you forget to type your comment? You creating a longer thread.
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My post was cut off. I was saying that ground based Doppler radar is a good source of data for people who do not believe in satellites.
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Cartesian, I have yet to see any credible evidence that hurricanes spin at all, let alone the way you are describing.
You doubt that hurricanes rotate?
They might rotate, but I am not convinced that they rotate in the manner that RET says they do.
Are you not interested to find out the truth?
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Cartesian, I have yet to see any credible evidence that hurricanes spin at all, let alone the way you are describing.
You doubt that hurricanes rotate?
They might rotate, but I am not convinced that they rotate in the manner that RET says they do.
Are you not interested to find out the truth?
Of course I am. I just have not seen credible proof one way or the other.
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There is abundant proof. Whether you accept it or not is a different matter.
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Here is a Quikscat weather product showing wind barbs. Each wind barb represents a velocity showing both direction and speed of the wind in a given area. This is hurricane Rita as it went through the gulf of Mexico. This is an unmistakably counter-clockwise rotation.
(http://www.philip-lutzak.com/weather/Meteo%20241/PROJECT_1%20files/Quickscat%20Rita%202005-09-21%201104%20-%20704AM.png)
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This is why they spin in opposite directions:
Experiment showing how electrons are deflected in a magnetic field (http://#ws)
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This is why they spin in opposite directions:
Experiment showing how electrons are deflected in a magnetic field (http://#ws)
Can you prove that the air is attracted by magnet in one direction in the northern hemisphere and in another direction in the southern hemisphere?
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This is why they spin in opposite directions:
Experiment showing how electrons are deflected in a magnetic field (http://#ws)
This is nonsense. The magnetic field is farthest away from the Earth at the Equator.
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Scroll down to see the drawing of the electric current of Earth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity)
Keep in mind that on the FE model, the current flows outward to the SP and inward to the NP....opposite directions.
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Scroll down to see the drawing of the electric current of Earth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_electricity)
Keep in mind that on the FE model, the current flows outward to the SP and inward to the NP....opposite directions.
Can you prove that the air is attracted by magnet in one direction in the northern hemisphere and in another direction in the southern hemisphere?
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Take a guess as to why Earth has a magnetic field.
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Don't worry. He just talked BS. He cannot even prove that the air is attracted by magnet at all, let alone deflected in different direction depending on the hemisphere.