The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => The Lounge => Topic started by: Tom Bishop on April 10, 2013, 02:14:14 PM
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Why is it that teachers, colleges, recruiters, and virtually everyone I've met recommends to keep a resume down to one page, or two pages at most?
If you are hiring a doctor, would you rather hire a doctor with a 1 page resume, or would you rather hire a doctor with a 10 page resume?
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If the doctor were good enough, his resume could just be his name on a piece of paper and people would hire him.
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If the doctor were good enough, his resume could just be his name on a piece of paper and people would hire him.
Not all doctors are... so without a nice long resume, you might say the doctor in question would be a bit of an... enigma. 8)
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If the doctor were good enough, his resume could just be his name on a piece of paper and people would hire him.
We'll have a test. On your next surgery you can pick a surgeon with a blank resume/bio and on mine I'll pick a surgeon with a 10+ page resume.
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Maybe those teachers/colleges/recruiters weren't talking about extremely successful doctors with plenty of qualifications. Maybe they assume those doctors already know how to write a resume appropriate for them.
It's about training people with little to no experience in the workforce how to get into it. Your average manager in a McDonald's isn't going to want to read through people's life stories.
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Why is it that teachers, colleges, recruiters, and virtually everyone I've met recommends to keep a resume down to one page, or two pages at most?
If you are hiring a doctor, would you rather hire a doctor with a 1 page resume, or would you rather hire a doctor with a 10 page resume?
Because no one hiring anyone wants to read a 10-page resume. No one hires anyone based on the length of her resume. That would be a rather stupid race to the bottom. Anyone can add pages to a resume. Why on Earth would you base your decision of surgeons solely on the length of her resume? I'd want to do what hospitals actually do: use the resumes of the most qualified applicants to make decisions about whom to interview.
Your resume isn't supposed to be something that provides a potential employer with everything she needs to make a hiring decision. It's supposed to help her decide whom to interview. No one needs a 10-page resume for that.
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Maybe those teachers/colleges/recruiters weren't talking about extremely successful doctors with plenty of qualifications. Maybe they assume those doctors already know how to write a resume appropriate for them.
It's about training people with little to no experience in the workforce how to get into it. Your average manager in a McDonald's isn't going to want to read through people's life stories.
If I were a manager hiring graduates out of college I would still prefer read a extended descriptions of projects the college kids worked on in school, to see if it is relevant to my needs, rather than be neglected entirely, with a summary and list of skills on the first page for quick sorting of qualified candidates. A table of contents would be ideal as well.
If I am interested in learning more about someone it is more of an inconvenience to set up an interview and organize time with my staff to pull out details. I would rather read about it right then and there, by flipping to page 6. Interviewing cost a lot of time and money, and the less time I have to spend interviewing lemons the better.
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A resumé is an ad that says "hire me." It has references and some indication that the person has been employed for the past few years.
The employer is to trust what's on the paper and usually has multiple resumés to compare.
Doctors are not hired based on resumés. They are not going around to hospitals turning in slips of paper that says their capabilities like "I'm really good at open heart surgeries."
Correct that you can't fit much onto 1 page. But its purpose is a first impression so the employer can look through lots of them quickly.
References, cover letters, interviews, and portfolios fill in missing data about the potential employee.
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Maybe those teachers/colleges/recruiters weren't talking about extremely successful doctors with plenty of qualifications. Maybe they assume those doctors already know how to write a resume appropriate for them.
It's about training people with little to no experience in the workforce how to get into it. Your average manager in a McDonald's isn't going to want to read through people's life stories.
If I were a manager hiring graduates out of college I would still prefer read a extended descriptions of projects the college kids worked on in school, to see if it is relevant to my needs, rather than be neglected entirely, with a summary and list of skills on the first page for quick sorting of qualified candidates. A table of contents would be ideal as well.
If I am interested in learning more about someone it is more of an inconvenience to set up an interview and organize time with my staff to pull out details. I would rather read about it right then and there, by flipping to page 6. Interviewing cost a lot of time and money, and the less time I have to spend interviewing lemons the better.
Since when are you concerned about how wisely your time is spent?
I can tell you that other people concerned with their time are gonna throw out the resumés over 2 pages.
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Since when are you concerned about how wisely your time is spent?
I can tell you that other people concerned with their time are gonna throw out the resumés over 2 pages.
Lets say we have two identically skilled engineers with exact educational and professional backgrounds.
Engineer #1 has a summary of his education, a list of his technical skills, a list of the programming languages he knows, and a condensed list of his last 5 positions with 2 sentence descriptions each, all condensed into one single page.
Engineer #2 has the same first page, but also has a table of contents on the second page, with 15 further pages of in depth descriptions of his various projects, his depth of knowledge, and his successes. He could have one page dedicated entirely to C+, for example, with a referenced entry in the Table of Contents, where he can talk about his various C+ projects in his professional life and what kind of C+ courses he took in school.
Why should I call up Engineer #1 over Engineer #2? Each has a one page summary I can sort through. Engineer #2 provides the convenience of looking further into his skillset and experience for a comprehensive biography to see if it is applicable to my needs.
If you are arguing on matter of inconvenience of the employer to read 10+ pages, the table of contents provides the convenience they need to find which skills and positions he or she is interested in reading about.
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You gotta calm down about the table of contents...
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Since when are you concerned about how wisely your time is spent?
I can tell you that other people concerned with their time are gonna throw out the resumés over 2 pages.
Lets say we have two identically skilled engineers with exact educational and professional backgrounds.
Engineer #1 has a summary of his education, a list of his technical skills, a list of the programming languages he knows, and a condensed list of his last 5 positions with 2 sentence descriptions each, all condensed into one single page.
Engineer #2 has the same first page, but also has a table of contents on the second page, with 15 further pages of in depth descriptions of his various projects, his depth of knowledge, and his successes. He could have one page dedicated entirely to C+, for example, with a referenced entry in the Table of Contents, where he can talk about his various C+ projects in his professional life and what kind of C+ courses he took in school.
Why should I call up Engineer #1 over Engineer #2? Each has a one page summary I can sort through. Engineer #2 provides the convenience of looking further into his skillset and experience to see if it is applicable to my needs.
If you are arguing on matter of inconvenience of the employer "to read 10 pages", the table of contents provides the convenience they need to find which skills and positions he or she is interested in reading about.
It's too pretentious. As an employer, I would feel better about calling each engineer's previous employers and seeing what feedback they give than to base any value in the amount of fluff they give themselves.
As an employer, if I wanted a thorough explanation of skills I'd ask for a portfolio. If I asked for a resumé, and I got 10 pages of 'qualifications' I'm gonna throw it out because I don't want an engineer that spends that much time writing about his or her self when it's not necessary.
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Tom, do you need help with a resumé?
5 previous employers is too much. Narrow it down to 3. A whole page for C+?? You kidding??
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Okay, Tom, if you're desperate about having the employer know about all your C+ skills you need to have a website on the resumé. That way you save trees, you don't look like a pretentious prick, and you get your first impression across smoothly and efficiently and allow for more in depth info about you.
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I used to do a lot of the interviews for my company. Personally, I skim over cover letters and resumes and jot down a few notes for each applicant. If you gave me a 10 page resume, I would not spend any more time reading it than I would a 1 page resume.
I like to hear the details coming out of your mouth, not read them on a resume. To me, the resume is just the highlights of your qualifications.
Also, I have never hired anyone because they have a good resume. I hire people based on their interview and I interview people based on their resume.
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I make hiring decisons based on 10% resume 90% interview.
Being that most people can fit the most pertinant qualifications on an 8x10 sheet - the remaining pages are usually needless job history.
I dont really need to know what you did during your summers while in grade school.
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I did not say that hiring decisions were based on resumes. Interview decisions are based on the resume. If you don't have a good resume you don't get interviewed and you consequently don't get hired.
Nor did I say anything about including non-professionally related material on your resume.
If you are applying for a job as a front-line engineer, whose skillset is direct to the success and failure of a business, you want to be damn sure the employer knows the depth of your skills and previous projects, not a two sentence summary.
I agree with the person who wrote the following (http://findmyjobnow.com/how-to-discover-a-job/#):
Having looked over hundreds of resumes myself, I can recite you that longer resumes seem more impressive. It’s beneficial to part of a fuller description of your previous positions and your knowledge transfer credentials.
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I'd like to know why 'resumes' (or CV's to the rest of the civilised world) are no longer accepted in the United Kingdom? Now you have to spend an hour or two filling in an online application form before doing some aptitude testing, a skills test, a preliminary interview, a group exercise, a presentation, a psychometric test, a formal interview, a meeting with the directors, a CRB check and presenting a history of everything you have done and every where you have been for the last 10 years spread over several day sessions over several weeks only to be told "Due to the vast number and incredible calibre of applicants you have not been successful in your bid to become a junior dogsbody".
It should be illegal to ask for anything more than a simple CV and one half day of interviewing without paying the person. You can waste weeks and weeks jumping through all them hoops, incur all kinds of travelling costs and have sod all to show at the end of it. Employment law needs a kick in the pants.
Worse still are the likes of Ryan Air. An interview actually costs you. Its £260 for the privilege of being interviewed by them and then £20 for them to check if you are a criminal! Imagine going for 4 interviews like that and not getting a job. >o<
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I did not say that hiring decisions were based on resumes. Interview decisions are based on the resume. If you don't have a good resume you don't get interviewed and you consequently don't get hired.
Nor did I say anything about including non-professionally related material on your resume.
If you are applying for a job as a front-line engineer, whose skillset is direct to the success and failure of a business, you want to be damn sure the employer knows the depth of your skills and previous projects, not a two sentence summary.
I agree with the person who wrote the following (http://findmyjobnow.com/how-to-discover-a-job/#):
Having looked over hundreds of resumes myself, I can recite you that longer resumes seem more impressive. It’s beneficial to part of a fuller description of your previous positions and your knowledge transfer credentials.
Tom, the bottom line is what the employer prefers.
So if you're doing the hiring, then screw everyone else and choose the person that turns in a 10 page resumé. However, if you're the one looking for a job, you better turn in what you think the employer is looking for. It doesn't matter if you're right and the employer is wrong; you're the one in need of a job.
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Having rethought my previous position I think it is safe to say that if your resume is one of a handful of exceptionally skilled individuals you should sell your life in as much detail as possible.
Employers having to sift through thousands may value brevity.
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Why is it that teachers, colleges, recruiters, and virtually everyone I've met recommends to keep a resume down to one page, or two pages at most?
Because that's the system. The system must be obeyed.
If you are hiring a doctor, would you rather hire a doctor with a 1 page resume, or would you rather hire a doctor with a 10 page resume?
Well, then it's a good thing that this limit is inapplicable to academics, medics, and other high-value specialists, isn't it?
I give this thread half a Parsifal. The OP is irrelevant to itself.
(http://i.omgomg.eu/halfparsifal)
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I'm pretty sure meta-irrelevance is worth more than that on the Parsifal scale.
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I can just hear Tom calling the company/hospital that didn't interview him:
"But my resumé said I'm really good at open-heart surgeries and I have 10 pages detailing how to do said surgery, proof that I have the knowledge and skillset to go above and beyond being an asset to your company, also if you read the next 10 pages you'll see that I'm fluent in C+!"
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C+
Get out of here.
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Lets say we have two identically skilled engineers with exact educational and professional backgrounds.
No Tom, let's try a more realistic scenario and say that you have 50 applicants for one engineering job. Do you really want to read through 500 pages to figure out who to interview or would you rather have a one page summary and cover letter highlighting relevant experience?
Also, don't assume that the first people to read those resumes are engineers. Generally, HR people are not very technical and 10 pages of detailed technical prowess would be wasted on them.
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Lets say we have two identically skilled engineers with exact educational and professional backgrounds.
No Tom, let's try a more realistic scenario and say that you have 50 applicants for one engineering job. Do you really want to read through 500 pages to figure out who to interview or would you rather have a one page summary and cover letter highlighting relevant experience?
Why would you need to read through them all? You read the first page and save the ones which catch your interest, just like you do with everyone else. Except now that your interest is caught, you have the added convenience of reading more in depth about the applicant's skill set and another chance to be impressed. Everyone else with their single page resumes do not have that advantage.
Also, don't assume that the first people to read those resumes are engineers. Generally, HR people are not very technical and 10 pages of detailed technical prowess would be wasted on them.
Technical people will see it when HR passes on the resume. You seem to lack an argument.
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If you are hiring a doctor, would you rather hire a doctor with a 1 page resume, or would you rather hire a doctor with a 10 page resume?
Well, then it's a good thing that this limit is inapplicable to academics, medics, and other high-value specialists, isn't it?
Long resumes are better in almost every field. If you're a welder you probably want to go in depth about the types of welding you know, what materials you've welded with, some information on past projects, courses taken, etc., to give the client a better understanding about your capabilities. Far better than "Worked as a welder in a local shop for 8 years where I welded all necessary materials."
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Why is it that teachers, colleges, recruiters, and virtually everyone I've met recommends to keep a resume down to one page, or two pages at most?
If you are hiring a doctor, would you rather hire a doctor with a 1 page resume, or would you rather hire a doctor with a 10 page resume?
Because the sort of people that teachers, colleges, recruiters, etc. make these recommendations to aren't usually applying for those sorts of positions.
Edit: wait, how did I end up here?
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He could have one page dedicated entirely to C+, for example, with a referenced entry in the Table of Contents, where he can talk about his various C+ projects in his professional life and what kind of C+ courses he took in school.
C+
Get out of here.
If I go I'm taking Tom with me.
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If you are hiring a doctor, would you rather hire a doctor with a 1 page resume, or would you rather hire a doctor with a 10 page resume?
Well, then it's a good thing that this limit is inapplicable to academics, medics, and other high-value specialists, isn't it?
Long resume are better in almost every field. If you're a welder you probably want to go in depth about the types of welding you know, what materials you've welded with, some information on past projects, courses taken, etc., to give the client a better understanding about your capabilities. Far better than "Worked as a welder in a local shop for 8 years where I welded all necessary materials."
Tom, why don't you add to your OP: "everyone thinks this way and I will tell you why everyone is wrong."
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The skill of writing a CV to reflect all your relevant talents and qualifications is also something to compare.
If I read the CV of engineer 1 who tells me he can do X Y and Z and was recognised by authority A I'm going to be more interested in inviting him for an interview to see if he really does know X, Y and Z than engineer 2 who tells me the minunatae of everything he knows because not only is my time limited, writing War and Peace no more proves you can do X than writing 'I can do 'X' because you could simply have someone who really does do 'X' to write your CV for you.
Keep it short, relevant and personal and be ready to back up any claim you make in the interview.
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Why would you need to read through them all? You read the first page and save the ones which catch your interest, just like you do with everyone else. Except now that your interest is caught, you have the added convenience of reading more in depth about the applicant's skill set and another chance to be impressed. Everyone else with their single page resumes do not have that advantage.
Any more than 2 pages and it looks like you're long winded and full of crap.
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And seriously, how many words does it take to say all the types of welds an experienced welder can do?
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Why is it that teachers, colleges, recruiters, and virtually everyone I've met recommends to keep a resume down to one page, or two pages at most?
If you are hiring a doctor, would you rather hire a doctor with a 1 page resume, or would you rather hire a doctor with a 10 page resume?
There is something to be said for being concise with your top accomplishments. Packing your resume with mildly impressive to mediocre filler, wastes everyone's time and paper. I cannot imagine a single instance in which including only absolutely incredible credentials would take up more than a page unless you suck at formatting.
A few Nobel prizes, a few PhD's from certain institutes, invented holographic simulation technology, cured cancer while rescuing a baby from a burning house filled with bears... 7-10 lines. ;)
Circling back to programmer examples, he can briefly describe his proficiencies within certain languages. Knowing exactly what he knows and exactly what he has done is pointless, because you only need to know his general area of expertise and if he can learn new skills relevant to the job. No programmer is ever hired to write a program they've already written. Programming jobs are all about having a base knowledge, and doing R&D post-hire.