Don't you already know the answer you're going to get? "well in both models, you're traveling in a circle, wouldn't it be easy to get confused between which one was real?" or maybe "well the magnetic pole will make you think you're traveling in a straight line". Probably something clever like that. Let's watch and see O.O
Don't you already know the answer you're going to get? "well in both models, you're traveling in a circle, wouldn't it be easy to get confused between which one was real?" or maybe "well the magnetic pole will make you think you're traveling in a straight line". Probably something clever like that. Let's watch and see O.O
I really wish I can explain this better. I hope people understand what I am trying to say. According to flat Earth theory you move in a circle, the problem is that on a flat pice of land moving in a circle means you are slowly turning in a circle and a magnetic compass along with your ships gyro would show this. On a sphere you can move in a circle while maintaining a set direction, such as west. Your ships gyro will stay at 270 as you move along the Earths curve. Your ships magnetic compass would change, but in a predictable way and should always show 270 or around 270 after factoring in variation and deviation.
in both models if you were traveling round the north pole you would be traveling in a circle. like roundy said, only at the equator are you traveling in the strait line.
it is said that if you walk in a strait line with no objects of reference you would actually walk in a big circle because one leg is stronger than the other. you wouldnt notice this circle. so if you follow a course with a compass on a flat earth do yuo think you would really notice the circle?
On a sphere you are standing parellel to a sphere so as you travel in one direction you can make a circle around it without changing your heading.
So my conclusion is that the notion of heading either east or west and never changing heading and inherently making a circle around the flat Earth can not be possible.Well, you're right. But neither would it be possible on a globe saving at the equator.
You cannot travel from california to japan going due west on a flat Earth... You have to change heading.As you would on a globe.
On a sphere you are standing parellel to a sphere so as you travel in one direction you can make a circle around it without changing your heading.
Stand twenty feet south of the north pole. Head west. How long are you still headed west if you walk in a straight line? Now thirty feet. How long? Now 60 feet. Extrapolate. "West" is not a straight line. One cannot head "west" without changing one's heading on a sphere or flat earth.
So my conclusion is that the notion of heading either east or west and never changing heading and inherently making a circle around the flat Earth can not be possible.
Well, you're right. But neither would it be possible on a globe saving at the equator.
You cannot travel from california to japan going due west on a flat Earth... You have to change heading.As you would on a globe.[/quote]
I understand what you are saying Boatswain, it's truly an interesting conundrum to contemplate. I will dedicate some time to thinking about this.
in both models if you were traveling round the north pole you would be traveling in a circle. like roundy said, only at the equator are you traveling in the strait line.
it is said that if you walk in a strait line with no objects of reference you would actually walk in a big circle because one leg is stronger than the other. you wouldnt notice this circle. so if you follow a course with a compass on a flat earth do yuo think you would really notice the circle?
Think about viewing a boat on a flat Earth from above. You know that the boat going to be at a heading of 090 true making way East at a longitude of 70.00.00N Do you think that you will see the vessel travel in that general direction (east) or do you think that the vessel will start to make a circle? If the vessel is then making a circle around a flat Earth do you think that you would see the vessel still moving in a easterly direction?
Now do the same thing on a sphere. Imagine you viewing a vessel making way easterly at 090 true starting at longitude 70.00.00N. That vessel is going to make a circle yes? as you watch that vessel travel around the sphere do you think that the vessel is having to change heading to complete the circle around the sphere? Now do you think that putting the vessel at any other longitude other then 85.00.00N/s + would change anything?
What I am trying to understand and possibly show and get some feedback on is the position of objects on a sphere vs a flat plane. I do understand that the circle around a sphere is not exactly straight due to the curve of Earth (rhumb line, giant circle is what we use in navigation, but not always as it makes simple track lines pretty complex and gives me a headache!)
On a flat plane you are always standing parellel to the deck so traveling in a circle is going to require multiple headings. On a sphere you are standing parellel to a sphere so as you travel in one direction you can make a circle around it without changing your heading. So my conclusion is that the notion of heading either east or west and never changing heading and inherently making a circle around the flat Earth can not be possible. Your ships gyro would detect your movement away from that heading. You cannot travel from california to japan going due west on a flat Earth... You have to change heading.
gosh I really am sorry if I am overcomplicating this concept or portraying my thoughts in an awkward/hard to understand way. I feel like this is more simple then what I am thinking, but that damned light bulb in my head seems to be flickering, but not staying on.
You walk around a sphere to make the circle. You cannot do that same on a flat plane. A flat plane circle is just like walking in a circle on any flat area, you walk north, then east, south, and west to create the 360 degree rotation. You have to move in that way to make a circle on a flat plane, I do not know of any other way aside from going under the flat plane then back up it to make the circle you would do comparatively to a sphere. That is my dilemma.
You walk around a sphere to make the circle. You cannot do that same on a flat plane. A flat plane circle is just like walking in a circle on any flat area, you walk north, then east, south, and west to create the 360 degree rotation. You have to move in that way to make a circle on a flat plane, I do not know of any other way aside from going under the flat plane then back up it to make the circle you would do comparatively to a sphere. That is my dilemma.
No. On a flat Earth go due east and you are walking in a circle. There's no walking north then east then south then west. The path is curved but it's still one direction. Go in one direction, travel in a circle, end up back where you started. Exactly the same as in RE. There's no change in heading. Unless I'm missing something you still seem to be having trouble grasping this?
You walk around a sphere to make the circle. You cannot do that same on a flat plane. A flat plane circle is just like walking in a circle on any flat area, you walk north, then east, south, and west to create the 360 degree rotation. You have to move in that way to make a circle on a flat plane, I do not know of any other way aside from going under the flat plane then back up it to make the circle you would do comparatively to a sphere. That is my dilemma.
No. On a flat Earth go due east and you are walking in a circle. There's no walking north then east then south then west. The path is curved but it's still one direction. Go in one direction, travel in a circle, end up back where you started. Exactly the same as in RE. There's no change in heading. Unless I'm missing something you still seem to be having trouble grasping this?
Well there might be some physics involved that I do not understand. Why, if I walk East, on a flat plane do I go in a circle? What is causing me to move in a circular path on a flat plane?
Well there might be some physics involved that I do not understand. Why, if I walk East, on a flat plane do I go in a circle? What is causing me to move in a circular path on a flat plane?
It's because of how we define "east" and "west". They are always oriented to the north pole, which is in the center in FE and at the top in RE. If you orient yourself east using a compass you are orienting yourself at a 90 degree angle in reference to the north pole. If you were to travel in a perfectly straight line from that point, you would not be traveling due east, you'd be veering toward the south. If you picture the Earth as a disk, with the north pole in the center and the south at the edges, this should be pretty easy to see. Keep going due east, on the other hand, and you travel the arc of a circle, just like in RE.
Also I think squevil is right on the money with his point. In FE the curve just keeps getting flatter and flatter the further south you start your journey due east. In RE it straightens out when you reach the equator, and then the curve starts getting more pronounced as your starting point goes more and more to the south.
Well there might be some physics involved that I do not understand. Why, if I walk East, on a flat plane do I go in a circle? What is causing me to move in a circular path on a flat plane?
It's because of how we define "east" and "west". They are always oriented to the north pole, which is in the center in FE and at the top in RE. If you orient yourself east using a compass you are orienting yourself at a 90 degree angle in reference to the north pole. If you were to travel in a perfectly straight line from that point, you would not be traveling due east, you'd be veering toward the south. If you picture the Earth as a disk, with the north pole in the center and the south at the edges, this should be pretty easy to see. Keep going due east, on the other hand, and you travel the arc of a circle, just like in RE.
Also I think squevil is right on the money with his point. In FE the curve just keeps getting flatter and flatter the further south you start your journey due east. In RE it straightens out when you reach the equator, and then the curve starts getting more pronounced as your starting point goes more and more to the south.
if there was a line that marked the path on a sphere the boat would follow it without going starboard or port etc
Well there might be some physics involved that I do not understand. Why, if I walk East, on a flat plane do I go in a circle? What is causing me to move in a circular path on a flat plane?
It's because of how we define "east" and "west". They are always oriented to the north pole, which is in the center in FE and at the top in RE. If you orient yourself east using a compass you are orienting yourself at a 90 degree angle in reference to the north pole. If you were to travel in a perfectly straight line from that point, you would not be traveling due east, you'd be veering toward the south. If you picture the Earth as a disk, with the north pole in the center and the south at the edges, this should be pretty easy to see. Keep going due east, on the other hand, and you travel the arc of a circle, just like in RE.
Also I think squevil is right on the money with his point. In FE the curve just keeps getting flatter and flatter the further south you start your journey due east. In RE it straightens out when you reach the equator, and then the curve starts getting more pronounced as your starting point goes more and more to the south.
if there was a line that marked the path on a sphere the boat would follow it without going starboard or port etc
This is where you're mistaken. The only place a boat travels in a due east or west direction and travels in a straight line is at the equator. Everywhere else, there'd be that slight curving to port or starboard.
Well there might be some physics involved that I do not understand. Why, if I walk East, on a flat plane do I go in a circle? What is causing me to move in a circular path on a flat plane?
It's because of how we define "east" and "west". They are always oriented to the north pole, which is in the center in FE and at the top in RE. If you orient yourself east using a compass you are orienting yourself at a 90 degree angle in reference to the north pole. If you were to travel in a perfectly straight line from that point, you would not be traveling due east, you'd be veering toward the south. If you picture the Earth as a disk, with the north pole in the center and the south at the edges, this should be pretty easy to see. Keep going due east, on the other hand, and you travel the arc of a circle, just like in RE.
Also I think squevil is right on the money with his point. In FE the curve just keeps getting flatter and flatter the further south you start your journey due east. In RE it straightens out when you reach the equator, and then the curve starts getting more pronounced as your starting point goes more and more to the south.
if there was a line that marked the path on a sphere the boat would follow it without going starboard or port etc
This is where you're mistaken. The only place a boat travels in a due east or west direction and travels in a straight line is at the equator. Everywhere else, there'd be that slight curving to port or starboard.
the ark I am talking about is one that bisects a circle (usually called a great circle), you can have bisections anywhere (not just at the equator); what you are talking about is not a great circle, but a circle that runs parralell to a great circle (in this case the equator).
Immaterial
Immaterial
No it's not. This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses. Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.
Immaterial
No it's not. This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses. Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.
I came from an oblique angle, so what? my argument still holds. A circle only has one great circle: its circumference. we can test whether there is only one great circle on earth by choosing an arbitrary great circle and then choosing one that runs perpendicular to this, if a plan sets off on one and then the other, if on both runs it ends up back where it started: the earth is not flat, this talk about compassess muddies what is actually going on.
Immaterial
No it's not. This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses. Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.
I came from an oblique angle, so what? my argument still holds. A circle only has one great circle: its circumference. we can test whether there is only one great circle on earth by choosing an arbitrary great circle and then choosing one that runs perpendicular to this, if a plan sets off on one and then the other, if on both runs it ends up back where it started: the earth is not flat, this talk about compassess muddies what is actually going on.
What is actually going on is that we are discussing whether traveling due east or west would cause the traveler to curve on a round Earth. Welcome to the thread.
(http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r499/andrew_thompson2/Flatwestheading.jpg)
If I start to travel on that circular path. Tell me how and why my gyro would not detect that I am turning? Do you see my problem. Moving in that circular path on a flat plane goes against what a gyro is used for and how it works. My gyro would show that I am changing course, but according to FE my gyro should not show that I am changing course. MY magnetic compass might show that North is still in the same direction and that I am heading west, but my gyro is not going to show that. The gyro will sense the turn because I am on a flat plane and cause my true heading to not be 270 anymore. The gyro is not sensitive to the magnetic north it is basing my direction off of more or less exact north such as the north star. If you look at your gyro repeater on the bridge wing we have a sight glass that we use to see the stars while viewing our gyro's reading. That is the easiest way to obtain gyro error (using the north star since it is always at 000 north) my magnetic compass is independent off the gyro, factoring in magnetic deviation and variation should cause my true heading to match my magnetic heading. On a flat plane following that path my true heading would not match.
On a sphere this is completely possible because the circle that I am traveling in is not exactly horizontal to magnetic north. I am not traveling parellel to magnetic north and therefore the curve I am traveling on a sphere with causes my gyro and magnetic compass to match after factoring in deviation and variation.
Immaterial
No it's not. This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses. Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.
I came from an oblique angle, so what? my argument still holds. A circle only has one great circle: its circumference. we can test whether there is only one great circle on earth by choosing an arbitrary great circle and then choosing one that runs perpendicular to this, if a plan sets off on one and then the other, if on both runs it ends up back where it started: the earth is not flat, this talk about compassess muddies what is actually going on.
What is actually going on is that we are discussing whether traveling due east or west would cause the traveler to curve on a round Earth. Welcome to the thread.
bur, you are clearly not listening. a plane or boat on a flat earth would always curve, but on a round earth if you go on the path of a greatcircle (there are infintiy of these), you won't, it does not matter that the equater is the only one that runs from one compass point to another, like I said compass discussion = moot
(http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r499/andrew_thompson2/Flatwestheading.jpg)
If I start to travel on that circular path. Tell me how and why my gyro would not detect that I am turning? Do you see my problem. Moving in that circular path on a flat plane goes against what a gyro is used for and how it works. My gyro would show that I am changing course, but according to FE my gyro should not show that I am changing course. MY magnetic compass might show that North is still in the same direction and that I am heading west, but my gyro is not going to show that. The gyro will sense the turn because I am on a flat plane and cause my true heading to not be 270 anymore. The gyro is not sensitive to the magnetic north it is basing my direction off of more or less exact north such as the north star. If you look at your gyro repeater on the bridge wing we have a sight glass that we use to see the stars while viewing our gyro's reading. That is the easiest way to obtain gyro error (using the north star since it is always at 000 north) my magnetic compass is independent off the gyro, factoring in magnetic deviation and variation should cause my true heading to match my magnetic heading. On a flat plane following that path my true heading would not match.
On a sphere this is completely possible because the circle that I am traveling in is not exactly horizontal to magnetic north. I am not traveling parellel to magnetic north and therefore the curve I am traveling on a sphere with causes my gyro and magnetic compass to match after factoring in deviation and variation.
You are missing the point. The same thing would happen on a round Earth. You're traveling a curved path one way or the other. If a gyro should detect a curve, and it doesn't on a RE, it is failing as an instrument.Immaterial
No it's not. This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses. Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.
I came from an oblique angle, so what? my argument still holds. A circle only has one great circle: its circumference. we can test whether there is only one great circle on earth by choosing an arbitrary great circle and then choosing one that runs perpendicular to this, if a plan sets off on one and then the other, if on both runs it ends up back where it started: the earth is not flat, this talk about compassess muddies what is actually going on.
What is actually going on is that we are discussing whether traveling due east or west would cause the traveler to curve on a round Earth. Welcome to the thread.
bur, you are clearly not listening. a plane or boat on a flat earth would always curve, but on a round earth if you go on the path of a greatcircle (there are infintiy of these), you won't, it does not matter that the equater is the only one that runs from one compass point to another, like I said compass discussion = moot
This is a different argument from the one presented in the OP. I'm trying to help the guy who works on a boat understand that a boat will always curve when traveling due east or west on a round Earth, everywhere but at the equator itself. You are the one muddying the conversation by talking about infinite great circles.
(http://i1168.photobucket.com/albums/r499/andrew_thompson2/Flatwestheading.jpg)
If I start to travel on that circular path. Tell me how and why my gyro would not detect that I am turning? Do you see my problem. Moving in that circular path on a flat plane goes against what a gyro is used for and how it works. My gyro would show that I am changing course, but according to FE my gyro should not show that I am changing course. MY magnetic compass might show that North is still in the same direction and that I am heading west, but my gyro is not going to show that. The gyro will sense the turn because I am on a flat plane and cause my true heading to not be 270 anymore. The gyro is not sensitive to the magnetic north it is basing my direction off of more or less exact north such as the north star. If you look at your gyro repeater on the bridge wing we have a sight glass that we use to see the stars while viewing our gyro's reading. That is the easiest way to obtain gyro error (using the north star since it is always at 000 north) my magnetic compass is independent off the gyro, factoring in magnetic deviation and variation should cause my true heading to match my magnetic heading. On a flat plane following that path my true heading would not match.
On a sphere this is completely possible because the circle that I am traveling in is not exactly horizontal to magnetic north. I am not traveling parellel to magnetic north and therefore the curve I am traveling on a sphere with causes my gyro and magnetic compass to match after factoring in deviation and variation.
You are missing the point. The same thing would happen on a round Earth. You're traveling a curved path one way or the other. If a gyro should detect a curve, and it doesn't on a RE, it is failing as an instrument.Immaterial
No it's not. This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses. Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.
I came from an oblique angle, so what? my argument still holds. A circle only has one great circle: its circumference. we can test whether there is only one great circle on earth by choosing an arbitrary great circle and then choosing one that runs perpendicular to this, if a plan sets off on one and then the other, if on both runs it ends up back where it started: the earth is not flat, this talk about compassess muddies what is actually going on.
What is actually going on is that we are discussing whether traveling due east or west would cause the traveler to curve on a round Earth. Welcome to the thread.
bur, you are clearly not listening. a plane or boat on a flat earth would always curve, but on a round earth if you go on the path of a greatcircle (there are infintiy of these), you won't, it does not matter that the equater is the only one that runs from one compass point to another, like I said compass discussion = moot
This is a different argument from the one presented in the OP. I'm trying to help the guy who works on a boat understand that a boat will always curve when traveling due east or west on a round Earth, everywhere but at the equator itself. You are the one muddying the conversation by talking about infinite great circles.
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.
Again, if your gyro would sense that turn, and it doesn't, then it is not functioning properly. That turn exists whether the Earth is round or flat.
I apologize for my failure in helping you understand here. I just don't see any way to make the point more lucid. :(
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.are you arguing whether the curve matches, or whether there is one; the curving on a round earth would be a lot less than one on a flat earth. or so I assume.
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.are you arguing whether the curve matches, or whether there is one; the curving on a round earth would be a lot less than one on a flat earth. or so I assume.
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.are you arguing whether the curve matches, or whether there is one; the curving on a round earth would be a lot less than one on a flat earth. or so I assume.
The curve you do on a sphere is of course going to be different then one you would make on a flat Earth. They are two completely different shapes and have two completely different navigational properties. Let me try to explain how navigators view True headings, magnetic headings, and the Earth.
True headings are independent of Earth in a way. I am not saying that we can judge north, south, east, and west in space, but true north is based on celestial objects that do not change with the Earth. Magnetic north is always changing, the rotation of the Earth on it's tilted axis. We use true headings so that we can maintain our track line easier. I do not know what you think you know, but if we have a track line that is at 086 true we will follow that track line at 086 true, we will not go in any other direction. If I need to sail from San francisco to Mito I know that I need to travel west. Mito is around a 250 true from San Fran, I can now make a series of leg's in that general direction ranging from 280-220, is it not possible to just go straight to Mito because the Earth is of course a sphere, I will curve in an arc like fashion as I travel around it. In no way will I make a circle just an arc. and A pretty small arc at that. If you try to do the same thing on a flat Earth map your semi circle that you have to make is flippen crazy. You basically are keeping your prop at right standard for the duration of the voyage.
I know that because on a flat plane you cannot make a circle without turning. It is geometrically impossible to make a circle on a flat object without turning. On a sphere, however, it is completely possible to travel in an arc without needing to turn, it is simply the shape of a sphere that allows this to happen. Can you say that on a flat plane you can make a semi circle or a full circle without turning? you can walk in one direction and create a circle? Do you understand how silly that sounds. Now ask yourself if walking around a sphere you can make a circle yes? If you walk around a portion of that sphere you more or less walk in an arc yes? not quite creating a circle, but you would if you walk in the same general direction without changing it dramatically (that would skew your circle and cause it to change paths on a sphere) If you are on a flat plane and you walk in a circle you are always changing your direction dramatically. If you decided to just keep walking as straight as you can possible make yourself walk you would now break that circle.
Now if you had a gyro in your hand calibrated to true north and you followed true north on a flat plan, why would you create a circle by stay at 000 true? on a sphere it makes perfect sense, you are going around an object, on a flat earth what are you going around to make that circle? the center of the flat plane? that is laughable because you have to turn to create that circle. True north is not some magical thing that defies the laws of geometry.
So just to clarify, to you Burt, no matter what these people say to you, take it from a navigator. If I tell you that if I am traveling to Mito Japan and on a westerly course of 250 true I am always going to be able to maintain 250 true, my magnetic compass should always come out to be 250 true after variation and deviation. I will not make a circle to get there, I will travel in a small arc only because I am on a sphere. If I were traveling on a flat Earth even though magnetic north is at the center making a semi circle as prominent as they show is not possible. The circle that you travel around a sphere is different from the circle you would travel on a flat plane.
If magnetic north/true north at the center of the flat plane no matter what you do, you have to turn. Even if your magnetic compass is showing that you are still going 270, you have to turn! that is such a conundrum it is not even funny. How do you explain turning without changing heading? impossible. On a tilted sphere going 270 you will travel in an arc (or curve whatever you want to call it that would eventually cause a circle) because 270 true is not 270 magnetic on Earth. the earth itself cuases you to create the arc,curve whatever great circle. so what the hell would cause you to do a circle on a flat plane without turning? Do you see what I am saying here burt? how is that possible to turn on a flat plane without changing heading... what is that flat plane doing? is it wobbling? tilting? rotating? flipping? what in the world is going on with that flat plane?
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.are you arguing whether the curve matches, or whether there is one; the curving on a round earth would be a lot less than one on a flat earth. or so I assume.
The curve you do on a sphere is of course going to be different then one you would make on a flat Earth. They are two completely different shapes and have two completely different navigational properties. Let me try to explain how navigators view True headings, magnetic headings, and the Earth.
True headings are independent of Earth in a way. I am not saying that we can judge north, south, east, and west in space, but true north is based on celestial objects that do not change with the Earth. Magnetic north is always changing, the rotation of the Earth on it's tilted axis. We use true headings so that we can maintain our track line easier. I do not know what you think you know, but if we have a track line that is at 086 true we will follow that track line at 086 true, we will not go in any other direction. If I need to sail from San francisco to Mito I know that I need to travel west. Mito is around a 250 true from San Fran, I can now make a series of leg's in that general direction ranging from 280-220, is it not possible to just go straight to Mito because the Earth is of course a sphere, I will curve in an arc like fashion as I travel around it. In no way will I make a circle just an arc. and A pretty small arc at that. If you try to do the same thing on a flat Earth map your semi circle that you have to make is flippen crazy. You basically are keeping your prop at right standard for the duration of the voyage.
I know that because on a flat plane you cannot make a circle without turning. It is geometrically impossible to make a circle on a flat object without turning. On a sphere, however, it is completely possible to travel in an arc without needing to turn, it is simply the shape of a sphere that allows this to happen. Can you say that on a flat plane you can make a semi circle or a full circle without turning? you can walk in one direction and create a circle? Do you understand how silly that sounds. Now ask yourself if walking around a sphere you can make a circle yes? If you walk around a portion of that sphere you more or less walk in an arc yes? not quite creating a circle, but you would if you walk in the same general direction without changing it dramatically (that would skew your circle and cause it to change paths on a sphere) If you are on a flat plane and you walk in a circle you are always changing your direction dramatically. If you decided to just keep walking as straight as you can possible make yourself walk you would now break that circle.
Now if you had a gyro in your hand calibrated to true north and you followed true north on a flat plan, why would you create a circle by stay at 000 true? on a sphere it makes perfect sense, you are going around an object, on a flat earth what are you going around to make that circle? the center of the flat plane? that is laughable because you have to turn to create that circle. True north is not some magical thing that defies the laws of geometry.
So just to clarify, to you Burt, no matter what these people say to you, take it from a navigator. If I tell you that if I am traveling to Mito Japan and on a westerly course of 250 true I am always going to be able to maintain 250 true, my magnetic compass should always come out to be 250 true after variation and deviation. I will not make a circle to get there, I will travel in a small arc only because I am on a sphere. If I were traveling on a flat Earth even though magnetic north is at the center making a semi circle as prominent as they show is not possible. The circle that you travel around a sphere is different from the circle you would travel on a flat plane.
If magnetic north/true north at the center of the flat plane no matter what you do, you have to turn. Even if your magnetic compass is showing that you are still going 270, you have to turn! that is such a conundrum it is not even funny. How do you explain turning without changing heading? impossible. On a tilted sphere going 270 you will travel in an arc (or curve whatever you want to call it that would eventually cause a circle) because 270 true is not 270 magnetic on Earth. the earth itself cuases you to create the arc,curve whatever great circle. so what the hell would cause you to do a circle on a flat plane without turning? Do you see what I am saying here burt? how is that possible to turn on a flat plane without changing heading... what is that flat plane doing? is it wobbling? tilting? rotating? flipping? what in the world is going on with that flat plane?
Even using the north pole as your guide means you are orienting yourself to the center. Magnetic or celestial north, it makes no difference. This has nothing to do with navigating east or west using ground-based guides vs celestial guides. It makes no difference. It's a matter of geometry. If you travel due east or due west on a sphere, anywhere but right on the equator, you are not traveling in a straight line. You are traveling in a curve. Your craft is subtly turning left or right the whole time.
now tell me why we travel in a circle on a flat plane!
now tell me why we travel in a circle on a flat plane!
For essentially the same reason. North is oriented at the center of the disk and east and west are at right angles to it.
you guys have got this wrong. the fes has a strong point here. i said at the start that you cant prove it either way.
now remember the point about only walking 20 feet from the pole and you walk in a circle? well you said in a greater distance its different. well its not, the only difference is that the circle is sooo big you wouldnt notice it. now we have established that you will turn on a round earth now understand that if a ship sailed from liverpool to new york it wouldnt even notice the curve.
now here is a thought experiment;
take a ship with sensitive enough equipment to detect this curve. measure it at 20 degrees north and then at 20 degrees south over a length of say 200 miles. if both curves match you have a round earth. however if the southern curve is flatter then so is the earth (flat that is).
you guys have got this wrong. the fes has a strong point here. i said at the start that you cant prove it either way.
now remember the point about only walking 20 feet from the pole and you walk in a circle? well you said in a greater distance its different. well its not, the only difference is that the circle is sooo big you wouldnt notice it. now we have established that you will turn on a round earth now understand that if a ship sailed from liverpool to new york it wouldnt even notice the curve.
now here is a thought experiment;
take a ship with sensitive enough equipment to detect this curve. measure it at 20 degrees north and then at 20 degrees south over a length of say 200 miles. if both curves match you have a round earth. however if the southern curve is flatter then so is the earth (flat that is).
boaty do you not agree with this? both curve, yes slightly differently because the sphere as essentially 2 arks. however from a navigational point of view (or not as the point im trying to make) they both curve equally in the northern hemisphere. only by doing the thought experiment will you actually gather the data you will need to prove either theory. try to remember the circle 20 yards from the north pole, that will help you understand what im trying to say.
this would be so much easier to talk about with a real ball and hand gestures :P preferably at the local inn over a shandy
do you follow a compass heading? because that will remain the same. as i havnt sailed the seven seas i maybe misunderstanding you.
Are you talking about traveling in a great circle in this thread, or not? Because the pictures you've drawn don't always show you traveling in a great circle.
I'm kind of confused what exactly it is you're talking about at any given point.
Are you talking about traveling in a great circle in this thread, or not? Because the pictures you've drawn don't always show you traveling in a great circle.
I'm kind of confused what exactly it is you're talking about at any given point.
Ok here is what I am trying to say in this thread.
1. We travel in a circle around a sphere in a great circle path.
2. The reasoning behind it is due to Earth being a sphere and how this particular sphere is set up (titled and so on, you know)
3. We can make the circle around Earth without needing to turn ourselves the shape of Earth does that for us because just like Squevil put way better then I can, we are at an angle on the sphere minus at the equator.
Gotcha, I am just going to not bring up the sphere thing anymore. I am describing it horribly and everything you guys are saying I know, but I am not expressing it in the best way. So for now let us focus on my concerns.
1. In FE the Earth is a flat plane.
2. On a flat plane we do not stand at an angle.
3. The circle you make on a flat plane is not the same as you would make on a sphere.
4. To make a circle around a point on a flat plane you have to turn.
5. How can you make a circle on this flat plane without turning. What affect is causing this to happen?
6. The circle that you make on a flat Earth map to get from California to Japan is upside down compared to the great circle path you would follow on spherical Earth because you are traveling in the northern hemisphere.
Now those are what I am really confused about. The one thing I would want an answer to more so then the rest is the great circle we follow on a sphere, how is that applied to a flat plane. IT seems to me the shortest distance on a flat plane is a straight line. Why do we travel in a circle on a flat plane? and if so how is that we do not turn to mak that circle?
Hey Burt, having a rough time understanding exactly what that is reference to. Is what you say how we would do a circle on a flat plane?
I understand what you are saying, just need some clarification on if it answers any of my questions and if so wich one?
Ok, I am going to write a few things now. Bare with me burt as this is kind of how I analyze things.
So, I draw a line in front of me for the path of a great circle.
It curves towards the horizon at the equator (because at the equator you are standing at a right angel correct?)
If I move up in longitude it now curves Towards that pole because I am at an angel on the sphere.
To maintain a true heading I must turn to correct my course or I will now be following the great circle path.
Now I have a couple questions, Burt.
1. If I do not want to do a circle around a sphere I will need to turn or els I will follow the path of a great circle around the sphere, but I am talking about how circles work on a sphere compared to a flat plane. how would what your wrote apply on a flat plan, Burt?
2. Why would a great circle path be applied to a flat plane?
3. Is the reason we travel in a circle the way we do on a sphere because of the angle we are positioned at on the sphere? And if so How can that be applied to a flat plane?
Now if we cannot apply great circle path's and our angels to a flat plane then why do we travel in circles on a flat plane without turning?
If I need to clarify anything please feel free to let me know.
Now if we cannot apply great circle path's and our angels to a flat plane then why do we travel in circles on a flat plane without turning?
If I need to clarify anything please feel free to let me know.
I have preformed various experiments with a kick ball and micro machines and I cannot replicate a rhumb line without turning the micro machine.
I have preformed various experiments with a kick ball and micro machines and I cannot replicate a rhumb line without turning the micro machine.
That's because a rhumb line on a sphere (except at the equator) is actually a spiral. A rhumb line is straight only on a Mercator (or similar) projection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhumb_line (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhumb_line)
Ok, I see well I really was not making much sense back then.
You'll follow a great circle if you don't turn, not a rhumb line.Not necessarily. Great circles, by definition, exactly bisect the RE.
Ok, I see well I really was not making much sense back then.
So, now, can you extract for me how you are currently making sense, and how it relates to the OP?
You'll follow a great circle if you don't turn, not a rhumb line.Not necessarily. Great circles, by definition, exactly bisect the RE.
(http://geeks.netindonesia.net/blogs/zeddy/qibsat_mecca_6A52B0F2.jpg)
You'll follow a great circle if you don't turn, not a rhumb line.Not necessarily. Great circles, by definition, exactly bisect the RE.
(http://geeks.netindonesia.net/blogs/zeddy/qibsat_mecca_6A52B0F2.jpg)
Mhmmm, which is accomplished by not turning, as you can verify with a ball and a toy car. Obviously the earth isn't perfectly smooth or round, but you'll still generally follow a great circle path if you somehow never turn.
You'll follow a great circle if you don't turn, not a rhumb line.Not necessarily. Great circles, by definition, exactly bisect the RE.
(http://geeks.netindonesia.net/blogs/zeddy/qibsat_mecca_6A52B0F2.jpg)
Mhmmm, which is accomplished by not turning, as you can verify with a ball and a toy car. Obviously the earth isn't perfectly smooth or round, but you'll still generally follow a great circle path if you somehow never turn.
have you done this? because you shouldnt be able to. in fact im sure you cant.
unless the path you take cuts the sphere exactly in half you will always need to ark the path you take
Ok, I see well I really was not making much sense back then.
Ok, I see well I really was not making much sense back then.
I would like some clarification on your question before I can continue with this discussion. Perhaps a rephrasing of what you wanted answered?
ok ill try and explain, even though all the information has been discussed in this thread and if you did wish to add to it you should of read it all first. anyway...
as stated if you walk around the pole 20 m away you will walk in a circle and have to turn. this turn is still there although very slight until you reach the equator. only when you bisect the sphere in exactly half will you be able to circumnavigate without turning.
if i am wrong then explain to me why you require to turn at 20 m from the pole but not at 1000 km.
The equator is a great circle, the path 20 m from the north pole isn't. I'm talking about following the path of a great circle, and in fact said that in my post, so I'm not sure what your objection is.
And thank you for implying that i haven't read the thread. I have, and what you're writing now makes no sense as a rebuttal to what I was just writing about great circles.
ok ill try and explain, even though all the information has been discussed in this thread and if you did wish to add to it you should of read it all first. anyway...
as stated if you walk around the pole 20 m away you will walk in a circle and have to turn. this turn is still there although very slight until you reach the equator. only when you bisect the sphere in exactly half will you be able to circumnavigate without turning.
if i am wrong then explain to me why you require to turn at 20 m from the pole but not at 1000 km.
Circumnavigating is not walking in a circle 40m wide. Circumnavigating is going around the circumference (hence, circum) starting at point A, and ending at point A. Not a 40m wide circle by the north pole, or anywhere else.
oh is the diagram bisecting the earth in 2 halves? sorry my bad i didnt realize. i thought it was cutting it by a 3rd. you should of corrected me strait away instead of just arguing about it.
You'll follow a great circle if you don't turn, not a rhumb line.Not necessarily. Great circles, by definition, exactly bisect the RE.
(http://geeks.netindonesia.net/blogs/zeddy/qibsat_mecca_6A52B0F2.jpg)
Mhmmm, which is accomplished by not turning, as you can verify with a ball and a toy car. Obviously the earth isn't perfectly smooth or round, but you'll still generally follow a great circle path if you somehow never turn.
have you done this? because you shouldnt be able to. in fact im sure you cant.
I have, and I'm curious why you think it's impossible.