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Other Discussion Boards => Philosophy, Religion & Society => Topic started by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on October 25, 2008, 07:15:16 AM

Title: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on October 25, 2008, 07:15:16 AM
Isn't a religion without a God redundant? Surely the lack of belief in a god is atheism.

Religion is not necessarily theistic.

Posts like these make me wonder how many people take what side on this.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Wendy on October 25, 2008, 07:18:14 AM
I don't feel that religion is synonymous with a belief in a god. Belief in something supernatural, yes, but not necessarily a deity. Take UFO religions, for example. They believe in aliens, but not in gods, per sé.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: AbdulAziz on October 25, 2008, 07:36:30 AM
Hi

I think Religion does have something to do with believe/faith. I am not sure but in my language if it doesn't include Believe/Faith in something you can't see they don't call it Religion but a law. I also agree with Wendy in what he said regarding the belief.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Chris Spaghetti on October 25, 2008, 07:50:43 AM
I think you can have belief in something spiritual without religion (eg Deists)
You can't have religion without a belief in something spiritual
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Althalus on October 25, 2008, 05:40:35 PM
Confucianism, Taoism.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: John Jackson on October 25, 2008, 06:00:22 PM
Atheism.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Althalus on October 25, 2008, 06:02:29 PM
Atheism.
Stop it.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: divito the truthist on October 25, 2008, 06:08:50 PM
Religion is not synonymous with a supernatural being.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: narcberry on October 25, 2008, 06:19:48 PM
I don't think God cares what you queers vote religion and God to be.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: divito the truthist on October 25, 2008, 07:40:47 PM
And I don't care whether he does or not.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Benocrates on October 26, 2008, 05:34:26 AM
he definition of religion is so broad and useless it is retarded for you people to debate it.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Chris Spaghetti on October 26, 2008, 07:33:29 AM
Atheism.

Is a lack of religion.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: John Jackson on October 26, 2008, 10:53:55 AM
Atheism.

Is a lack of religion.

I think is a belief in non-existence of a diety.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Wendy on October 26, 2008, 10:56:06 AM
Atheism lacks a "supreme moral code", and it lacks religious rites. Therefore, it is not a religion.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Benocrates on October 26, 2008, 11:11:54 AM
Atheism.

Is a lack of religion.

I think is a belief in non-existence of a diety.

that sounds religulous
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Wendy on October 26, 2008, 11:18:54 AM
Quote
re⋅li⋅gion
   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.    a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2.    a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3.    the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and
Quote
practices
: a world council of religions.
4.    the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5.    the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6.    something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7.    religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8.    Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Chris Spaghetti on October 26, 2008, 11:21:23 AM
Exactly, atheism has no set 'practices' or 'rituals'
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Benocrates on October 26, 2008, 11:22:09 AM
dictionaries only display common usage, they hold no further truth. Everyone, either decide on a coherent definition of religion and discuss it or end the debate. Pure semantic arguments are BORING.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Wendy on October 26, 2008, 11:23:56 AM
Well, semantics arguments are boring, but understand my point: Atheism isn't a religion, because it has no religious practices. Period. Now, we can discuss religions. Atheism kinds goes with it, though, because it's almost like an opposite.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Benocrates on October 26, 2008, 11:29:50 AM
It is better to talk of Weltanschauung (world-view) than "religion." Assume a beginning of complete ignorance and build from there, assign characteristics of 'religion' and declare certain types of world-views as that. 
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: John Jackson on October 26, 2008, 11:46:21 AM
I have yet to find a religious system without any kind of deities. Even Taoism and Buddhism that were pointed out above, have some form of deities in their religious beliefs. I pointed Atheism as a philosophical system that is explicitly based on the notion of non-existence of a god. If one considers it as a religion, than the answer to the poll is no. However, if it is the only example we can find and we know this term was specifically coined up with the intention to deny god(s), then it seems like a perverse example that has nothing to do with the true meaning of religion.

I think I started some thread were I wonder what is the objective of a religion, but it is not important. In my opinion, religion is a system of beliefs that try to answer the inexplicable. The differences between some religions occur because of the time of their inception. Newer religions were faced with fewer problems than soma ancient ones. This would correspond to the shift from polytheism to monotheism. If you look at the polytheistic religions, you would notice that there was a need to explain everyday natural and astronomical phenomena. With the advent of civilizations and science, it came to be known that most of these phenomena occur due to some more fundamental reason and that there is an underlying law that governs them. Attributing these characteristics to a single deity led to monotheism. Hence, the confidence of Moses in the God of Abraham over the polytheistic gods of ancient Egypt. In any case, the need for explaining the inexplicable and giving some reason behind it by invoking supernatural beings leads to the creations of some sort of deities.

The only common question addressed by all of the religions that I know of is what happens after the death of a human being. Hence, the existence of some kind of burial rites in every religion. This is one question that is still not answered by modern science. Here, atheists make a ‘leap of faith’ and say that there is nothing  after our death, or the death of any living being, for that matter. Our body is a synergetic assembly of tissues, chemicals and electrical impulses that, at some point, seize to exist and the feeling of consciousness is lost. Whether you choose to believe in this stance or not is your right. However, notice that most of the monotheistic religions give an elaborate description of what is to happen after our death and, by projecting these events to our current life, they enact a moral code of conduct and a system of observances.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Chris Spaghetti on October 26, 2008, 11:48:55 AM
I have yet to find a religious system without any kind of deities. Even Taoism and Buddhism that were pointed out above, have some form of deities in their religious beliefs. I pointed Atheism as a philosophical system that is explicitly based on the notion of non-existence of a god. If one considers it as a religion, than the answer to the poll is no. However, if it is the only example we can find and we know this term was specifically coined up with the intention to deny god(s), then it seems like a perverse example that has nothing to do with the true meaning of religion.

I think I started some thread were I wonder what is the objective of a religion, but it is not important. In my opinion, religion is a system of beliefs that try to answer the inexplicable. The differences between some religions occur because of the time of their inception. Newer religions were faced with fewer problems than soma ancient ones. This would correspond to the shift from polytheism to monotheism. If you look at the polytheistic religions, you would notice that there was a need to explain everyday natural and astronomical phenomena. With the advent of civilizations and science, it came to be known that most of these phenomena occur due to some more fundamental reason and that there is an underlying law that governs them. Attributing these characteristics to a single deity led to monotheism. Hence, the confidence of Moses in the God of Abraham over the polytheistic gods of ancient Egypt. In any case, the need for explaining the inexplicable and giving some reason behind it by invoking supernatural beings leads to the creations of some sort of deities.

The only common question addressed by all of the religions that I know of is what happens after the death of a human being. Hence, the existence of some kind of burial rites in every religion. This is one question that is still not answered by modern science. Here, atheists make a ‘leap of faith’ and say that there is nothing  after our death, or the death of any living being, for that matter. Our body is a synergetic assembly of tissues, chemicals and electrical impulses that, at some point, seize to exist and the feeling of consciousness is lost. Whether you choose to believe in this stance or not is your right. However, notice that most of the monotheistic religions give an elaborate description of what is to happen after our death and, by projecting these events to our current life, they enact a moral code of conduct and a system of observances.

Nice.

I would like to add that atheism itself is no more a religion than theistm
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Benocrates on October 26, 2008, 11:51:47 AM
I disagree with a few things that guy said, but I'll deal with them later. Quickly, I think it is over-simplified and rather juvenile.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Wendy on October 26, 2008, 12:54:11 PM
Raëlism has no belief in any gods. Aliens, sure, but no gods.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on October 27, 2008, 02:54:17 PM
Religion is not synonymous with a supernatural being.
Yeah, rereading the title I messed up a bit with the wording, huh.  :-\
Luckily, they got the premise I was aiming for.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: britishgent on October 28, 2008, 07:05:25 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brights_movement
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Benocrates on October 28, 2008, 07:21:50 AM
ugh, either a religion is a subset of worldviews that contain a dogma or the supernatural. Pick your definition and there you go, the bright movement fits into neither of those.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: britishgent on October 28, 2008, 07:23:51 AM
A set belief based on faith about the supernatural:
God doesn't exist
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Benocrates on October 28, 2008, 07:30:46 AM
First, thats the farthest stretch of 'religion' I have ever heard. Second, faith has no part in it (for most people who I know as non-believers). I hope you're not a troll, because that would mean your just ignorant of the facts and can be corrected.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: britishgent on October 28, 2008, 07:34:22 AM
hey were arguing the same thing in two topics is it ok to just use the other one.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=24392.0
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: KingMan on November 02, 2008, 11:00:00 PM
Atheism.

Is a lack of religion.

I think is a belief in non-existence of a diety.
He is right. If it was not a religion, People would not call themselves anything. They would merely say they do not believe in any religion. But since you classify yourselves as atheist, you are a religion.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Benocrates on November 03, 2008, 03:54:03 AM
Atheism.

Is a lack of religion.

I think is a belief in non-existence of a diety.
He is right. If it was not a religion, People would not call themselves anything. They would merely say they do not believe in any religion. But since you classify yourselves as atheist, you are a religion.
We are forced to use the label atheist because there are a lot of theists. If a large percent of the population believed in fairies, we would (at least I would) be forced to consider myself an afariest.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Wendy on November 03, 2008, 07:34:44 AM
Also, that is the weakest argument I've ever heard. I'm a capitalist, and classify myself as a capitalist. Therefore, capitalism is a religion.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: KingMan on November 03, 2008, 03:18:05 PM
Also, that is the weakest argument I've ever heard. I'm a capitalist, and classify myself as a capitalist. Therefore, capitalism is a religion.
No, Capitalism is a belief.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 03, 2008, 04:10:15 PM
Also, that is the weakest argument I've ever heard. I'm a capitalist, and classify myself as a capitalist. Therefore, capitalism is a religion.
No, Capitalism is a belief.

I'm sure he agrees, but he is showing the problems with your definition:
But since you classify yourselves as atheist, you are a religion.

Also,
Religion is dependent on faith.
Atheism is structured on a lack of evidence for a deity.
Atheism is not a form of religion.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: KingMan on November 03, 2008, 04:14:53 PM
Also, that is the weakest argument I've ever heard. I'm a capitalist, and classify myself as a capitalist. Therefore, capitalism is a religion.
No, Capitalism is a belief.

I'm sure he agrees, but he is showing the problems with your definition:
But since you classify yourselves as atheist, you are a religion.

Also,
Religion is dependent on faith.
Atheism is structured on a lack of evidence for a deity.
Atheism is not a form of religion.
No, Atheists have faith that there is no God, because you really can't know.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Parsifal on November 03, 2008, 04:18:00 PM
No, Atheists have faith that there is no God, because you really can't know.

Just like you have faith that when you step outside there won't be a mad gunman waiting to fill you with bits of lead?
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Althalus on November 03, 2008, 04:40:57 PM
No, Atheists have faith that there is no God, because you really can't know.

Just like you have faith that when you step outside there won't be a mad gunman waiting to fill you with bits of lead?
Sure is straw man around here.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Parsifal on November 03, 2008, 04:43:01 PM
No, Atheists have faith that there is no God, because you really can't know.

Just like you have faith that when you step outside there won't be a mad gunman waiting to fill you with bits of lead?
Sure is straw man around here.

Not really. There's no evidence for or against either, so by his logic both require faith to either believe in or not believe in. Why don't you never go outside in case somebody is waiting to kill you?
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Althalus on November 03, 2008, 04:44:25 PM
Because there is no reason to believe there is someone waiting to kill me.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Parsifal on November 03, 2008, 04:45:48 PM
Because there is no reason to believe there is someone waiting to kill me.

Precisely. Thanks for proving my point.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on November 03, 2008, 04:46:32 PM
Also, that is the weakest argument I've ever heard. I'm a capitalist, and classify myself as a capitalist. Therefore, capitalism is a religion.
No, Capitalism is a belief.

I'm sure he agrees, but he is showing the problems with your definition:
But since you classify yourselves as atheist, you are a religion.

Also,
Religion is dependent on faith.
Atheism is structured on a lack of evidence for a deity.
Atheism is not a form of religion.
No, Atheists have faith that there is no God, because you really can't know.

Wrong.  If suddenly scientists found evidence of the existence of God, atheists would change their minds.  Fundamental difference between atheists and theists: atheists demand evidence before they believe anything.  Theists believe anything certain people tell them without question.  Atheists' thoughts and opinions are shaped by reliable evidence; theists' thoughts and opinions are shaped by ancient superstition.  You think atheists believe there is no god, period, and you're wrong.  They just don't believe things for which there is no evidence.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Parsifal on November 03, 2008, 04:48:49 PM
Wrong.  If suddenly scientists found evidence of the existence of God, atheists would change their minds.  Fundamental difference between atheists and theists: atheists demand evidence before they believe anything.  Theists believe anything certain people tell them without question.  Atheists' thoughts and opinions are shaped by reliable evidence; theists' thoughts and opinions are shaped by ancient superstition.  You think atheists believe there is no god, period, and you're wrong.  They just don't believe things for which there is no evidence.

That's not entirely true. The majority of atheists would do that, but you would get some fundamentalists who would refuse to change their position. Those atheists are just as bad as the fundamentalist theists.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Roundy the Truthinessist on November 03, 2008, 04:53:31 PM
Wrong.  If suddenly scientists found evidence of the existence of God, atheists would change their minds.  Fundamental difference between atheists and theists: atheists demand evidence before they believe anything.  Theists believe anything certain people tell them without question.  Atheists' thoughts and opinions are shaped by reliable evidence; theists' thoughts and opinions are shaped by ancient superstition.  You think atheists believe there is no god, period, and you're wrong.  They just don't believe things for which there is no evidence.

That's not entirely true. The majority of atheists would do that, but you would get some fundamentalists who would refuse to change their position. Those atheists are just as bad as the fundamentalist theists.

You're right.  I agree.  There is a small proportion of atheists who are just as dogmatic and rigid in their beliefs as fundamental theists.  But the majority of atheists will admit that if evidence presented itself they would change their opinion.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Althalus on November 03, 2008, 05:00:24 PM
Because there is no reason to believe there is someone waiting to kill me.

Precisely. Thanks for proving my point.
How so?
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Parsifal on November 03, 2008, 05:22:35 PM
Because there is no reason to believe there is someone waiting to kill me.

Precisely. Thanks for proving my point.
How so?

There is no good reason to believe in either unless you're batshit insane.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Althalus on November 03, 2008, 05:29:06 PM
Because there is no reason to believe there is someone waiting to kill me.

Precisely. Thanks for proving my point.
How so?

There is no good reason to believe in either unless you're batshit insane.
http://www.reasons.org/ (http://www.reasons.org/)
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Parsifal on November 03, 2008, 05:33:57 PM
There is no good reason to believe in either unless you're batshit insane.
http://www.reasons.org/ (http://www.reasons.org/)

Very good. Now, can you come up with reasons for those of us who aren't batshit insane?
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Althalus on November 03, 2008, 05:45:22 PM
http://www.reasons.org/ (http://www.reasons.org/)
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Parsifal on November 03, 2008, 06:08:10 PM
Very good. Now, can you come up with reasons for those of us who aren't batshit insane?
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Althalus on November 03, 2008, 06:16:34 PM
http://www.reasons.org/ (http://www.reasons.org/)
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: cmdshft on November 03, 2008, 06:18:56 PM
Very good. Now, can you come up with reasons for those of us who aren't batshit insane?
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Althalus on November 03, 2008, 06:23:52 PM
See my previous post.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: cmdshft on November 03, 2008, 06:31:46 PM
Very good. Now, can you come up with reasons for those of us who aren't batshit insane?
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Althalus on November 03, 2008, 06:34:46 PM
See my previous post.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Johan on November 03, 2008, 06:36:38 PM
http://www.reasons.org/ (http://www.reasons.org/)
This site is rather difficult to navigate. Is there a specific section to which we should be directing our attention?
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Sexual Harassment Panda on November 03, 2008, 07:19:15 PM
that website is fail
i demand real reasons

Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Recusant on November 03, 2008, 07:49:24 PM
I would say that religion is a belief that the universe has some preceding essence or objective meaning to it - whether in the form of a god or not.

It is ultimately an attempt to absolve oneself of the responsibility of choice.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Wendy on November 03, 2008, 10:34:52 PM
Wrong.  If suddenly scientists found evidence of the existence of God, atheists would change their minds.  Fundamental difference between atheists and theists: atheists demand evidence before they believe anything.  Theists believe anything certain people tell them without question.  Atheists' thoughts and opinions are shaped by reliable evidence; theists' thoughts and opinions are shaped by ancient superstition.  You think atheists believe there is no god, period, and you're wrong.  They just don't believe things for which there is no evidence.

That's not entirely true. The majority of atheists would do that, but you would get some fundamentalists who would refuse to change their position. Those atheists are just as bad as the fundamentalist theists.

Like that guy in abdul's thread, who gave the following reason for being an atheist:
Quote
I am an atheist because I've always been, and I always will be.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 04, 2008, 03:20:34 AM
Quote
I am an atheist because I've always been, and I always will be.
meh. I don't belief atheism is justified by indoctrination, any more than any theistic belief.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 04, 2008, 03:34:46 AM
http://www.reasons.org/ (http://www.reasons.org/)

What about it?
btw, we were also dependent on plate tectonics and an active core, to provide the majority of our atmosphere. See 'outgassing'.


For those of you you didn't read the top article, it is another classic argument following this flawed structure:
"Earth is a special special place. Therefore God exists."
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Wendy on November 04, 2008, 09:46:28 AM
Good job repeating my opinion.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 07, 2008, 11:15:50 PM
Good job repeating my opinion.
Huh what?
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Wendy on November 08, 2008, 12:45:11 AM
Your post about atheism by indoctrination being just as incorrect as religion by indoctrination.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on November 08, 2008, 10:44:00 AM
Your post about atheism by indoctrination being just as incorrect as religion by indoctrination.
Originally, I thought you were agreeing with the person you quoted. I guess that's what I get for not reading everything.
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: narcberry on February 24, 2022, 10:18:13 AM
Hey mods can we reopen this poll? I voted but forgot to hit submit and now the vote is closed.

Thanks,
Narcberry
Official Flatearth Spokesman
Moderator
Admin
Owner cum laude
Title: Re: Religion vs Belief in god(s)?
Post by: Bullwinkle on February 26, 2022, 04:15:18 AM
Hey mods can we reopen this poll? I voted but forgot to hit submit and now the vote is closed.

OMG, I'm not the most we todd it pusern on the internet.