-
Why Jesus is considered a God in Christianity? starts listing me all of your reasons, maybe one of the reasons is valid and I would say: "Yeah, he deserves to be worshiped for that" :)
I recommend atheists to save their time instead of wasting by reading and replying :)
-
Why Jesus is considered a God in Christianity? starts listing me all of your reasons, maybe one of the reasons is valid and I would say: "Yeah, he deserves to be worshiped for that" :)
I recommend atheists to save their time instead of wasting by reading and replying :)
Jesus is not a God. He is considered the son of God. He didn't have any superpowers such as being able to fly or X-ray vision.
You should know this. Do you worship Mohammed as a God?
-
Why Jesus is considered a God in Christianity? starts listing me all of your reasons, maybe one of the reasons is valid and I would say: "Yeah, he deserves to be worshiped for that" :)
I recommend atheists to save their time instead of wasting by reading and replying :)
Why is Mohammad a profit? Why he instead of other men. Why is his word higher than others?
-
Jesus is not a God. He is considered the son of God. He didn't have any superpowers such as being able to fly or X-ray vision.
You should know this. Do you worship Mohammed as a God?
I know he is considered the son of god, but there are many proves in Christianity that he is one with the Holy Ghost, God. There are many MANY!
I don't worship Mohammed a human who was eating and drinking and sleeping, I would be too stupid to worship someone who can be compared to others ^_^
Why is Mohammad a profit? Why he instead of other men. Why is his word higher than others?
Please create a topic for that and I will give you detailed reasons why he is messenger of Allah and no more than a prophet and messenger of god.
-
Jesus is not a God. He is considered the son of God. He didn't have any superpowers such as being able to fly or X-ray vision.
You should know this. Do you worship Mohammed as a God?
I know he is considered the son of god, but there are many proves in Christianity that he is one with the Holy Ghost, God. There are many MANY!
I don't worship Mohammed a human who was eating and drinking and sleeping, I would be too stupid to worship someone who can be compared to others ^_^
Why is Mohammad a profit? Why he instead of other men. Why is his word higher than others?
Please create a topic for that and I will give you detailed reasons why he is messenger of Allah and no more than a prophet and messenger of god.
The questions are parallels. One cannot be answered without the other. There is no more evidence of Mohammad being the messenger of god. Jesus as the son of God is God made flesh. This is no harder to understand than an earthly man claiming to speak to god. I believe this to be impossible.
-
JESUS IS GOD AND THE SON OF GOD.
The holy trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost are all God.
SOME STUPID PEOPLE ALSO THINK LOVE IS GOD AND EARTH IS GOD....
-
So there's some Oedipus thing going on? Jesus married Mary so he's his own stepdad?
-
Jesus is not a God. He is considered the son of God. He didn't have any superpowers such as being able to fly or X-ray vision.
You should know this. Do you worship Mohammed as a God?
I know he is considered the son of god, but there are many proves in Christianity that he is one with the Holy Ghost, God. There are many MANY!
I don't worship Mohammed a human who was eating and drinking and sleeping, I would be too stupid to worship someone who can be compared to others ^_^
So then you consider both Mohammed and Jesus on equal footing. Good. So let me ask you this next - look at this list:
1. Jesus
2. Mohammed
3. David Koresh
All three of these men claimed to be prophets and to receive messages directly from God. What criteria are you using to say that one is greater than the other, or has a more valid message?
-
SOME STUPID PEOPLE ALSO THINK LOVE IS GOD AND EARTH IS GOD....
In the context of the balance of your post, this made me lol.
-
Dam it, I wasted my time.
-
JESUS IS GOD AND THE SON OF GOD.
The holy trinity: The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost are all God.
Yeah this is what I know from Christians he is god and at the same time son of god :)
So then you consider both Mohammed and Jesus on equal footing. Good. So let me ask you this next - look at this list:
1. Jesus
2. Mohammed
3. David Koresh
All three of these men claimed to be prophets and to receive messages directly from God. What criteria are you using to say that one is greater than the other, or has a more valid message?
Yup in Islam Mohammed & Jesus are both messengers of God and both respected messengers have signs and proves from god they are messengers for example Jesus being able to revive the dead, cast out devils, heal people, tell people what they are saving in their house by the permission of God. Same goes for Mohammed and both great messengers were approved by the God Himself (In Bible & Quran). However David Koresh, prophet-wannabe he claimed he is messenger but he never had the signs, the god never claimed that he is his messenger but yeah he can only be approved if you consider yourself (Atheist) and consider him your messenger ^_^
Now why Mohammed is Prophet and messenger of God I will be posting that soon if no one is planning to create a topic but not to go away from this topic.
I want to know why Christians are believing that Jesus is god!? from the Bible ^_^
Mr. Ireland:
Hehehe :P
-
Yup in Islam Mohammed & Jesus are both messengers of God and both respected messengers have signs and proves from god they are messengers for example Jesus being able to revive the dead, cast out devils, heal people, tell people what they are saving in their house by the permission of God. Same goes for Mohammed and both great messengers were approved by the God Himself (In Bible & Quran). However David Koresh, prophet-wannabe he claimed he is messenger but he never had the signs, the god never claimed that he is his messenger but yeah he can only be approved if you consider yourself (Atheist) and consider him your messenger ^_^
Now why Mohammed is Prophet and messenger of God I will be posting that soon if no one is planning to create a topic but not to go away from this topic.
Well, David Koresh's followers claim he performed miracles and exhibited signs. Why should Mohammed's followers get to write about him and we take it as truth, and Jesus' followers get to write about him and we take it as truth, but we don't extend the same to David Koresh's followers?
Or maybe ALL the followers are lying to promote their religion.
-
Who was the mormon prophet?
-
Who was the mormon prophet?
Joseph Smith, Jr. Actually a much better example than David Koresh, thank you. He has his own followers, his own book and he exhibited all the signs of being a legitimate prophet. So why should we believe Mohammed or Jesus any more than we believe him?
-
Well, David Koresh's followers claim he performed miracles and exhibited signs. Why should Mohammed's followers get to write about him and we take it as truth, and Jesus' followers get to write about him and we take it as truth, but we don't extend the same to David Koresh's followers?
Or maybe ALL the followers are lying to promote their religion.
Claims is not fact, Mohammed's miracles has been approved by his companions, by christians of his time, by Jews of that time, by historians, Rome, Persians. Furthermore Mohammed was approved by his God (Allah), we are all aware that Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindus...etc all are the same one almighty god. Furthermore both Mohammed & Jesus has been prophesied in old books such as Hindu, Old Testament and New Testament as well (This is going to be proved in another topic in details) and so in the Quran the same god (Allah) approves that Jesus, Abraham, Noah, Mohammed, Moses were his messengers and he approved their miracles. There is no single contradiction in the Quran not even one! one tiny bit!? dream or wish, live another century and add 3 more centuries to find one contradiction in the Quran and you will fail. While am sure we can find many contradictions in David books. Mohammed's message has been delivered to the world and survived till now and it's the fastest growing religion in the world. While David's message I never heard of it but only now! Don't tell me he was a messenger of another god, because that would only be equal to denying the existence of god.
So Now here we have the following approvals for Mohammed or Jesus Miracles, signs that they are messengers:
God's Approval
Their Companion's Approval
Their Enemies
Historians
Prophesies Of The Old Books
The respected messengers prophesies are coming true (Details will be given in another topic)
other reasons that I would give if you want :)
Guys please go back to the original topic, I want to know the reasons why Christians believes that Jesus is god and his son?
-
Guys please go back to the original topic, I want to know the reasons why Christians believes that Jesus is god and his son?
Why or how?
-
So Now here we have the following approvals for Mohammed or Jesus Miracles, signs that they are messengers:
God's Approval
Their Companion's Approval
Their Enemies
Historians
Prophesies Of The Old Books
The respected messengers prophesies are coming true (Details will be given in another topic)
other reasons that I would give if you want :)
Guys please go back to the original topic, I want to know the reasons why Christians believes that Jesus is god and his son?
All these hold for Joseph Smith, Jr.
1. He said he had God's approval, via the angel Moroni appearing to him.
2. Obviously his fellow Mormons approved, or the religion would never have taken off.
3. He has many enemies, same as the other prophets.
4. Mormon historians believe that he is real. Atheist historians don't believe he has any special status, but then again they don't believe Mohammed has any special status either.
5. Prophecies just name A prophet. They don't mention a timeframe or a name. Maybe they were talking about Joseph Smith, Jr. For all we know, Joseph Smith, Jr. could actually be Kalki.
6. Specific prophecies coming true have to be discussed one by one. Most are too broad. For instance, in Islam the sky turning to rosy paint is taken way out to left field to supposedly be a prophecy for rose nebulae.
All this goes to the bigger question of why Christians accept Jesus as a prophet. There is no reason. You can pick anyone you want, they are all equally valid.
-
All this goes to the bigger question of why Christians accept Jesus as the son of God. There is no reason. You can pick anyone you want, they are all equally valid.
Fix'd :)
-
Well, David Koresh's followers claim he performed miracles and exhibited signs. Why should Mohammed's followers get to write about him and we take it as truth, and Jesus' followers get to write about him and we take it as truth, but we don't extend the same to David Koresh's followers?
Or maybe ALL the followers are lying to promote their religion.
Claims is not fact, Mohammed's miracles has been approved by his companions, by christians of his time, by Jews of that time, by historians, Rome, Persians. Furthermore Mohammed was approved by his God (Allah), we are all aware that Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindus...etc all are the same one almighty god. Furthermore both Mohammed & Jesus has been prophesied in old books such as Hindu, Old Testament and New Testament as well (This is going to be proved in another topic in details) and so in the Quran the same god (Allah) approves that Jesus, Abraham, Noah, Mohammed, Moses were his messengers and he approved their miracles. There is no single contradiction in the Quran not even one! one tiny bit!? dream or wish, live another century and add 3 more centuries to find one contradiction in the Quran and you will fail. While am sure we can find many contradictions in David books. Mohammed's message has been delivered to the world and survived till now and it's the fastest growing religion in the world. While David's message I never heard of it but only now! Don't tell me he was a messenger of another god, because that would only be equal to denying the existence of god.
So Now here we have the following approvals for Mohammed or Jesus Miracles, signs that they are messengers:
God's Approval
Their Companion's Approval
Their Enemies
Historians
Prophesies Of The Old Books
The respected messengers prophesies are coming true (Details will be given in another topic)
other reasons that I would give if you want :)
Guys please go back to the original topic, I want to know the reasons why Christians believes that Jesus is god and his son?
Jesus came back from the dead. He brought himself back to life. Mohammad had to ask god for any miracle he may or may not have performed, Jesus raised himself from the dead, because dead people can not perform miracles.
-
Zeroply
I will come back to you soon n_n
All these hold for Joseph Smith, Jr.
1. He said he had God's approval, via the angel Moroni appearing to him
He said, where is the written God's approval that exists till now? I wanna read what his god said, I did read what Moses, Mohammed, Jesus's god said, I wanna read what Joseph's god said.
Obviously his fellow Mormons approved, or the religion would never have taken off.
I never heard of his religion, his teachings, god wouldn't chose a prophet after Mohammed and would make his religion below Islam and there are more than 70% of the world didn't even heard his name?
He has many enemies, same as the other prophets.
Cool
Mormon historians believe that he is real.
None of Jews, Christians, Hindus, Islamic scriptures he is real :)
Jews, Christians, Muslims >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist
They believe one almighty God Exists ^_^
Atheist historians don't believe he has any special status, but then again they don't believe Mohammed has any special status either.
Lol they don't believe god exists ^_^
Prophecies just name A prophet. They don't mention a timeframe or a name. Maybe they were talking about Joseph Smith, Jr. For all we know, Joseph Smith, Jr. could actually be Kalki.
I love Shen-Long's quote from Bloody Roar game: "You have much to learn" there is by name, by attributes....etc
All this goes to the bigger question of why Christians accept Jesus as a prophet. There is no reason. You can pick anyone you want, they are all equally valid.
No Christians believe he is a prophet because if by any chance they believed they are no more Christians :)
Mohammad had to ask god for any miracle he may or may not have performed
Of course because Mohammed is no more than slave of Allah and his messenger :)
So now we have the following reasons why Jesus is considered son of God!?
Jesus came back from the dead. He brought himself back to life.
Any other!? is this the only reason why he is considered a god!?
-
All these hold for Joseph Smith, Jr.
1. He said he had God's approval, via the angel Moroni appearing to him
He said, where is the written God's approval that exists till now? I wanna read what his god said, I did read what Moses, Mohammed, Jesus's god said, I wanna read what Joseph's god said.
It's written out very clearly in the Book of Mormon. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will send you a free copy just for asking. Also, it's exactly the same as originally revealed since Joseph Smith, Jr. spoke English.
Obviously his fellow Mormons approved, or the religion would never have taken off.
I never heard of his religion, his teachings, god wouldn't chose a prophet after Mohammed and would make his religion below Islam and there are more than 70% of the world didn't even heard his name?
It's common in the U.S. 70% of the world haven't heard of Stephen Hawking, that doesn't mean that Stephen Hawking is wrong. Also, most of the world had never heard of Mohammed right after his life and death - it's just that Joseph Smith, Jr. hasn't had as long to get established.
Not an argument you want to pursue. Both IQ and educational level correlate highly to atheism. The smarter an individual the more likely they are to be an atheist.
None of Jews, Christians, Hindus, Islamic scriptures he is real :)
Jews, Christians, Muslims >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist
They believe one almighty God Exists ^_^
The Hindus don't believe in one almighty God. It is a pantheistic religion, and different Gods can act independently.
-
It's written out very clearly in the Book of Mormon. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will send you a free copy just for asking. Also, it's exactly the same as originally revealed since Joseph Smith, Jr. spoke English.
Give me a copy please :)
It's common in the U.S. 70% of the world haven't heard of Stephen Hawking, that doesn't mean that Stephen Hawking is wrong. Also, most of the world had never heard of Mohammed right after his life and death - it's just that Joseph Smith, Jr. hasn't had as long to get established.
Not an argument you want to pursue. Both IQ and educational level correlate highly to atheism. The smarter an individual the more likely they are to be an atheist.
Why you think Stephen Hawking is right :)
The Hindus don't believe in one almighty God. It is a pantheistic religion, and different Gods can act independently.
This proves you still have much to learn about Hinduism n_n however I am not too bad to leave you like that, I will give you a hint: ask learned Hindu about "Ekam evadvitiyam" what it means? ^_^ what I wrote is in the Upanishads! the Upanishads are considered sacred scriptures by the Hindus. If we want to learn we must read ourselves not only hear from x or y n_n so please read Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1
^_^
-
It's written out very clearly in the Book of Mormon. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will send you a free copy just for asking. Also, it's exactly the same as originally revealed since Joseph Smith, Jr. spoke English.
Give me a copy please :)
I just use an online copy. Go to:
http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/contents
and read away.
This proves you still have much to learn about Hinduism n_n however I am not too bad to leave you like that, I will give you a hint: ask learned Hindu about "Ekam evadvitiyam" what it means? ^_^ what I wrote is in the Upanishads! the Upanishads are considered sacred scriptures by the Hindus. If we want to learn we must read ourselves not only hear from x or y n_n so please read Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1
Well, let's just say that I'm a lot closer to Hinduism than the average guy on the street. You're completely misunderstanding Chandogya. There was only one in the beginning. It's like the trunk of a tree giving rise to branches. The branches can still move independently. The one that is being described would not qualify as sentient by most definitions. It is more like the fabric of the universe, not a thinking calculating individual.
-
Why Jesus is considered a God in Christianity? starts listing me all of your reasons, maybe one of the reasons is valid and I would say: "Yeah, he deserves to be worshiped for that" :)
I speak with a humble tongue and a kind heart to impart peace and love (Truth).
1 John.5:[20] He is the true God and eternal life.
Unfortunately Christianity is a false religion because of this very statement, GOD is alone and therefore anyone claiming to be GOD or [worse] putting themselves before GOD (acting as an obstacle) is truly of the Devil.
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6)
Although AbdulAziz Jesus did not lie when he said he is a son of GOD, he is a son (angel) but a fallen one for preaching the verses above like many of his brothers who too are sons, Satan, Azazel (Judaism) etc. So how does this help Islam? It doesn't, it means that religion too is false, GOD would never allow a fallen angel to hold a sacred status in another religion, and besides, (angel) whose root meaning is "messenger" would make Mohamed an angel also.
Ask yourself this brother; why would GOD wait so many years to send the true religion 600 A.D? Ask yourself this; why would the most intelligent Being in the Universe save Noah and keep Him in darkness by not giving Him the Holy Word? The Devil is very deceptive, many have been fooled by him even today and walk that wide path that leads to the Abyss, this is why there are so many followers in false religions, but GOD forgives, this is why these devils have to keep you in that frame of mind continuously (false religions) because once you break thru and see the lie, at that moment if you want to make it right GOD is right there with you (Truth).
-
So, which one is the truth then?
-
Well, let's just say that I'm a lot closer to Hinduism than the average guy on the street. You're completely misunderstanding Chandogya. There was only one in the beginning. It's like the trunk of a tree giving rise to branches. The branches can still move independently. The one that is being described would not qualify as sentient by most definitions. It is more like the fabric of the universe, not a thinking calculating individual.
If you have Upanishad please read 4:19 and 6:9 and there are many other verses as well. Also check Yajurveda 40:9 to know what god saying about worshiping other gods.
I speak with a humble tongue and a kind heart to impart peace and love (Truth).
1 John.5:[20] He is the true God and eternal life.
Unfortunately Christianity is a false religion because of this very statement, GOD is alone and therefore anyone claiming to be GOD or [worse] putting themselves before GOD (acting as an obstacle) is truly of the Devil.
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6)
Although AbdulAziz Jesus did not lie when he said he is a son of GOD, he is a son (angel) but a fallen one for preaching the verses above like many of his brothers who too are sons, Satan, Azazel (Judaism) etc. So how does this help Islam? It doesn't, it means that religion too is false, GOD would never allow a fallen angel to hold a sacred status in another religion, and besides, (angel) whose root meaning is "messenger" would make Mohamed an angel also.
Ask yourself this brother; why would GOD wait so many years to send the true religion 600 A.D? Ask yourself this; why would the most intelligent Being in the Universe save Noah and keep Him in darkness by not giving Him the Holy Word? The Devil is very deceptive, many have been fooled by him even today and walk that wide path that leads to the Abyss, this is why there are so many followers in false religions, but GOD forgives, this is why these devils have to keep you in that frame of mind continuously (false religions) because once you break thru and see the lie, at that moment if you want to make it right GOD is right there with you (Truth).
Man, your really great :) I am glad there are people who are ready to discuss
Jesus never lied in anything but some humans added or removed some words so he is contradicting himself. Jesus didn't lie when he was saying son of God but the son of god at his time was used the people, in the Bible you will realize many verses saying we are all his sons, should we all be considered gods? Jesus peace be upon him never claimed divinity, those who did read the people can easily tell that we all remember when he said: "My Father is greater than I or My Father is greater than all and here is exactly matching what the Islam says about him: "I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…." and "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." and we all believe in Islam that Jesus did these stuffs, and this is all mentioned in the Bible which supposed to be said by Jesus himself.
Son doesn't mean Angel, but at their time the word son was used like the one who is teaching and educating me, the one who is taking care of me...etc we all know the language of Jesus is closest to Arabic (My language) and we in Arabic use such terms like the "Rab El Bit" rab = god, el bite = house. It's like he is in charge of the house. Thats why they were using the word son of god.
Both Mohammed and Jesus were humans and messengers of the same god (Allah) and the prove is that Jesus himself in the Bible said: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou has sent." he is proving that he has been sent and there are many verses that proves his mission was as the mission of Mohammed.
Now why he waited all these years to sent Mohammed after Jesus or sending Jesus after Moses that's I can't know because we have limited thinking and mind, we don't know what is God's plan but I can tell you that Jesus was sent to his people and after his death his companions were still on the right religion that is worshiping one god alone but then later on humans changed this, and there was so many other mistakes in the world so god sent Mohammed as the last messenger and the last warning to Humanity.
Now why there are many followers for a false religion, because people deny the truth for many reasons; They don't know about the true religion, their parents are forcing them, they are used to what they've been doing and can't change because of the social life, they are scared, they might have hatred against those new guys and many many other reasons.
I just want to collect all the reasons why Christians believes that Jesus is god so I can answer each point. Because if someone did read the Bible well from the first page till last he will realize that he is not the god.
-
Why God at all?
Why religion? If you had been brought up in a spiritual vacuum do you think you would believe in God? Religion is a artifact of mankind's fear of death and desire for validation.
Good for you if you need/want God. The rest of us find the things we need from other people.
-
The rest of us find the things we need from other people.
Or ourselves.
-
But masturbation is a sin! :-\
-
Yes but autoerotic asphyxiation is not.
-
I'm afraid so.
-
Why Jesus is considered a God in Christianity? starts listing me all of your reasons, maybe one of the reasons is valid and I would say: "Yeah, he deserves to be worshiped for that" :)
Yup in Islam Mohammed & Jesus are both messengers of God and both respected messengers have signs and proves from god they are messengers
“Worshiping Jesus” is an all or nothing thing, AbdulAziz. You can’t call him a ‘prophet’ and ‘respected’ without accepting everything he says. He himself gave indication he is God.* He also said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
So he is either God, and the ONLY way to the Father, meaning you have to denounce your belief in ‘Allah’ as God in order to accept Christ as God. OR he is a liar (or crazy) and you have to denounce him as a ‘respected prophet’.
You’re going to have to choose, Abdul.
*I can provide scripture if you’re interested. Trying to keep this short.
-
The rest of us find the things we need from other people.
Or ourselves.
I don't believe anyone can exist in a social vacuum. This is what turns priests into sickos.
People need people.
-
The rest of us find the things we need from other people.
Or ourselves.
I don't believe anyone can exist in a social vacuum. This is what turns priests into sickos.
People need people.
Not true.
-
Why Jesus is considered a God in Christianity? starts listing me all of your reasons, maybe one of the reasons is valid and I would say: "Yeah, he deserves to be worshiped for that" :)
Yup in Islam Mohammed & Jesus are both messengers of God and both respected messengers have signs and proves from god they are messengers
“Worshiping Jesus” is an all or nothing thing, AbdulAziz. You can’t call him a ‘prophet’ and ‘respected’ without accepting everything he says. He himself gave indication he is God.* He also said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
So he is either God, and the ONLY way to the Father, meaning you have to denounce your belief in ‘Allah’ as God in order to accept Christ as God. OR he is a liar (or crazy) and you have to denounce him as a ‘respected prophet’.
You’re going to have to choose, Abdul.
*I can provide scripture if you’re interested. Trying to keep this short.
He's already said that man put those words in Jesus' mouth, I think. If he's really Muslim, then it doesn't matter what it says in the Christian bible anyway.
-
The rest of us find the things we need from other people.
Or ourselves.
I don't believe anyone can exist in a social vacuum. This is what turns priests into sickos.
People need people.
Don't you remember Robert Neville? He grew a big beard and became a (sane) hermit, but in the end people were the death of him.
-
The rest of us find the things we need from other people.
Or ourselves.
I don't believe anyone can exist in a social vacuum. This is what turns priests into sickos.
People need people.
Don't you remember Robert Neville? He grew a big beard and became a (sane) hermit, but in the end people were the death of him.
I am Legend?......well a real life example would have been more appropriate.
-
He was a very realistic depiction of one of the better of the human race. How many real famous hermits are there?
-
“Worshiping Jesus” is an all or nothing thing, AbdulAziz. You can’t call him a ‘prophet’ and ‘respected’ without accepting everything he says. He himself gave indication he is God.* He also said “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
So he is either God, and the ONLY way to the Father, meaning you have to denounce your belief in ‘Allah’ as God in order to accept Christ as God. OR he is a liar (or crazy) and you have to denounce him as a ‘respected prophet’.
You’re going to have to choose, Abdul.
*I can provide scripture if you’re interested. Trying to keep this short.
[/quote]
I totally understand what your trying to say it's same thing here in Islam, we must believe everything said in the Quran otherwise its as if we are saying god lying. However we believe in the Quran because the Quran never contradicts itself and that's because the author is God. However in the Bible as the cowgirl said there are some of Jesus own words, there are some words of historians and god...etc thats why I can't believe in the Bible 100%
As for the scriptures thank you so much I have already the bible and went through it that's why I was asking why people believe Jesus is the god from the bible?
If he's really Muslim, then it doesn't matter what it says in the Christian bible anyway.
Well that's not true n_n I mean if I am talking to a Christian and tell him Jesus is not god because the Quran says he was only a messenger of course he wouldn't believe it and he might counter me saying but my Bible is saying otherwise. So what I am trying to do here, is to prove from the Bible (The Christian's book) themselves that Jesus shouldn't be worshiped as almighty god :) sadly many Christians don't read the bible, they only read few chapters and verses, why they are not reading their book from the first page to the last page to discover themselves?
I still ask people who said that the old testament was written by Moses, why in more than hundreds we find something like: "God said to Moses and Moses asked God, God told Moses while Moses did this and that." why he is not saying: "I asked God, and the God answered me" what's more interesting that when Moses died we read and Moses died and He (God) moved....etc Can a dead man do such a thing? if so then that's the greatest miracle of Moses ;D
-
If the koran was written by Allah it was pretty pretentious to do most of it in third person.
-
If the koran was written by Allah it was pretty pretentious to do most of it in third person.
I didn't get what you mean? but would you remove the IF because it's from Allah :)
And verily this Quran is a revelation from the Lord of all the worlds. The Spirit, faithful to the trust (Angel Gabrial), has descended with it. On thy heart, that thou mayest be a Warner (Prophet Mohammed)
-
Quoting a book as saying it is true does not make it true.
-
Quoting a book as saying it is true does not make it true.
Yeah I know that but I was describing what is the Quran when I quoted ;) from our point of view
But why Quran is from God because no humans no one can come up with the book like the Quran. For 14 centuries humans could find many contradictions in major books such as Bible, Unipashad...etc but they all failed to find 1!!!!!!! only 1 contradiction in the Quran. Let them live 1000000 centuries and they will not find a contradiction. "This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it".
Even if you believe it's not from God (Allah) then isn't it a shame that someone like Mohammed writing a book with no contradiction while the Bible which is considered from God have countless contradictions? Isn't it shame that Mohammed a human is correcting the mistakes of science in the Bible? honestly guys don't you feel shame, if my god (Allah) was defeated or there was someone above him or greater than him I wouldn't worship him. Luckily am Worshiping the creator not the creations :)
-
30:26 says everything obeys Allah.
2:34 says Iblis disobeyed him.
-
30:26 says everything obeys Allah.
2:34 says Iblis disobeyed him.
ask the one who thought he could find contradiction :) in case if he can't answer I will save your time :)
In the first verse Allah is talking about the creations, that everything he has created and they are all below Allah and on the day of Judgment day would come obeying. That's why the Arabic word "Qanetoon" was used = قانتون
While the second verse is talking about the Satan (Iblis) when god told him to submit to Adam but he refused and disobeyed God. That's why the word "Istakbar" = استكبر was used
What other contradictions you think you can have? ;D
-
Jinn were spirits from a paganistic religion incorperated into Islam, they are a part of the heavens and earth in islam and thus should be obedient to allah.
-
Jinn were spirits from a paganistic religion incorperated into Islam, they are a part of the heavens and earth in islam and thus should be obedient to allah.
Jinn and Humans both are given the free will :) and that is exactly going as God will.
Athalus, you've wasted your time on lots of things, your even wasting your time trying to find contradiction that your grand grand grand grand son would fail to find, why not you waste your time and read the Quran from the first page to the last, even if you read 2 pages a day. If you can't get it in your country I think there are many sites that allows you to download it :) Humans are usually enemies of what they don't know ^_^
-
It doesn't matter, it is explicitly stated that "everything obeys Allah" and then the devil himself disobeys Allah. That is a direct contradiction, and no amount of interpretation will change that fact.
-
It doesn't matter, it is explicitly stated that "everything obeys Allah" and then the devil himself disobeys Allah. That is a direct contradiction, and no amount of interpretation will change that fact.
What are you talking about, Athalus never copied the verse he posted based on his understanding. What he did is exactly like saying this >>> Did Solomon have 40,000 stalls for his horses (1 Kings 4:26), or 4,000 stalls (2 Chronicles 9:25)?
The verse clearly in arabic says Qanetoon it means = they will all obey him standing on the day of judgment, they belong to Allah...etc they have no power but to be going as god wills they live they die, they live 10000 years they are still under god. Hara as I have recommended others I recommend you to read the Quran. God's words can never contradict but human's words can contradict and we are all aware of that :)
For example, we are all obedient to death, no matter what we do in the end we die wither we want or we don't want! while the second verse it means Allah ordered Satan to submit to Adam and he disobeyed god said that you created me from fire I am better. He had the choice but he have no choice in "Dying, day of judgment, being under god...etc" I don't know what exact word they use for this lol :$ sorry for my bad English after all my original language is Arabic which is the language of Quran
For 14 centuries greatest scholars couldn't find 1 signle contradiction in the Quran this has been admitted by many great scholars of Christianity not even one flaw. If you are interested in proving Quran wrong or contradiction that would be too great because try after another and third, 4th they will all be demolished "Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Verily, falsehood is bound to vanish." which will show the people around here that even "as you say" Mohammed who wrote the Book can write books without contradictions while other divine books can have countless contradictions.
"Woe, therefore, to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, `This is from ALLAH,' That they may take it for a paltry price. Woe, then, to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they earn. "
-
Why Jesus is considered a God in Christianity? starts listing me all of your reasons, maybe one of the reasons is valid and I would say: "Yeah, he deserves to be worshiped for that" :)
I recommend atheists to save their time instead of wasting by reading and replying :)
1. It is believed that He is the Son of God.
2. It is believed that He delivered mankind from eternal death.
3. It is believed that He will judge us on the Judgement Day.
-
Why religion?
-
Why religion?
Because this is the Religion and Philosophy forum.
-
What's wrong with philosophy?
-
It doesn't belong in this thread. Also, it cannot be proven right or wrong.
-
It doesn't belong in this thread. Also, it cannot be proven right or wrong.
Irony.
-
Irony.
Yeah, I like that series from Swatch too.
-
(http://holamun2.com/legacy/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/jesus-statue.jpg)
-
That's right, Jesus hates you.
-
Well then, is Jesus the son of God because he raised the dead? If so, then what about Ezekiel who is said to have raised many more dead bodies than Jesus ever did. Ezekiel is said to have raised a whole city from the dead (Ezekiel 37:1-9) :)
-
Well then, is Jesus the son of God because he raised the dead? If so, then what about Ezekiel who is said to have raised many more dead bodies than Jesus ever did. Ezekiel is said to have raised a whole city from the dead (Ezekiel 37:1-9) :)
God worked through Ezekiel. Jesus was God and raised the dead on his own.
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, "Son of man, can these bones live?"
I said, "O Sovereign LORD, you alone know."
4 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the LORD! 5 This is what the Sovereign LORD says to these bones: I will make breath [a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' "
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.
9 Then he said to me, "Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe into these slain, that they may live.' "
-
Beautiful but I am really surprised people still believing that he is god even though, the very Bible, which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity, clearly belies this claim. We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context:
1. God is All Knowing...but Jesus was not. When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.
2. God is All-Powerful...but Jesus was not. While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful; He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
3. God does not have a God...but Jesus did have a God. God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
4. According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans...but Jesus was flesh and blood. While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, " No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18) "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24, "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God ant any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.
5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him...but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own. Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a "good master" in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Further more, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done," and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
-
Protip: Jesus had both a divine and human nature, so your above points are moot.
-
Protip: Jesus had both a divine and human nature, so your above points are moot.
If I were you I wouldn't be saying that. Have you ever asked yourself this "Why I am Denying!?" the truth? :)
"In what discourse then, after this, will they believe?"
-
I wish you were me, then you wouldn't spam retarded shit nonstop.
-
I wish you were me, then you wouldn't spam retarded shit nonstop.
Too bad God didn't grant your wish and I really thank Allah he didn't, otherwise if I were you Allah's words would have been suitable for me:
"They have hearts wherewith they understand not and they have eyes wherewith they see not and they have ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle; nay, they are even more astray. They are indeed altogether heedless."
I prefer spamming with useful posts than posting useless posts full of insulting :)
Sometimes people believes goes beyond imagination!!! They worship a god who pray to himself... :)
-
How can your posts be useful for anything when they are all about fiction? If I wanted to entertainment about homosexuals running around in a desert I would watch Lawrence of Arabia.
-
How can your posts be useful for anything when they are all about fiction? If I wanted to entertainment about homosexuals running around in a desert I would watch Lawrence of Arabia.
Again if what I am saying is fiction and my believes are only fiction I am in a better position. Are you really in a position to say this after knowing this about your god >>>
Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized
I swear in the name of Almighty God I would feel shame to show my face here if I was worshiping something like that!? :)
They are like cattle; nay, they are even more astray. They are indeed altogether heedless."
-
I'd rather worship someone with humility then follow a misogynistic murdering pedophile rapist slave owner.
-
I'd rather worship someone with humility then follow a misogynistic murdering pedophile rapist slave owner.
worshiping is different than following :) I am sorry to say this but the more you post the more you prove that some humans have very limited thinking ^_^ gotta go for now! wishing some Christians who can use their mind read what was posted before :)
-
I wish you were me, then you wouldn't spam retarded shit nonstop.
I sniggered. Sig'd.
-
By the way is the word trinity used in the Bible!? also The title "Son of man" which is a self designation of Jesus and occurs more than 80 times in the gospels is the clearest description and emphasis by Jesus on his humanity. The classical interpretation given to this title is that it is used to emphasize the human side of Jesus. Now the question which suggests itself is: Do contemporary Christians emphasize this aspect of Jesus?
-
By the way is the word trinity used in the Bible!? also The title "Son of man" which is a self designation of Jesus and occurs more than 80 times in the gospels is the clearest description and emphasis by Jesus on his humanity. The classical interpretation given to this title is that it is used to emphasize the human side of Jesus. Now the question which suggests itself is: Do contemporary Christians emphasize this aspect of Jesus?
No they just ramble pointless bollocks. And look for the image of Jesus in prawn crckers and the likes.
And its all astroligical imagary.
-
This is for someone who is still trying to defend after so many clear contradictions. If God raised the dead through the prophet mentioned in the previous then what do you say about this >>>
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (Acts 2:22)
Jesus, the man approved by God, and the man whom God used to show the miracles and signs. This passage makes it 100% clear that Jesus wasn't doing the miracles by his own supposed divine power, rather God did the work through him, which when you put with all the other verses I have showed you means that God granted the miracles to Jesus, and God was really the one in charge, Jesus was just the medium being used....
No they just ramble pointless bollocks. And look for the image of Jesus in prawn crckers and the likes.
And its all astroligical imagary.
Maybe that's why Allah said >>>
"Dost thou think that most of them hear or understand ? They are like cattle - nay, they are worst than cattle in their behaviour."
:)
-
They are like cattle - nay, they are worst than cattle in their behaviour.
That perfectly describes your penguinpasted ad hoc diatribes that you won't even discuss after two posts, just keep piling more shit on.
-
They are like cattle - nay, they are worst than cattle in their behaviour.
That perfectly describes your penguinpasted ad hoc diatribes that you won't even discuss after two posts, just keep piling more shit on.
That was a verse from the Quran :)
-
Beautiful but I am really surprised people still believing that he is god even though, the very Bible, which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity, clearly belies this claim. We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context:
1. God is All Knowing...but Jesus was not. When speaking of the Day of Judgment, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "but of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgment would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.
2. God is All-Powerful...but Jesus was not. While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own, but derived from God. He said, "Verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seethe the Father do..." (John 5:19) Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: As I hear I judge, and my judgment is just because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only all-powerful; He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.
3. God does not have a God...but Jesus did have a God. God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was one whom he worshipped and to whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17) He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?" Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's prayer (Luke 11:2-4) was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: Nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt 26:36-39) Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission, and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped and prayed to another being as God, is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.
4. According to the Bible, God is invisible to humans...but Jesus was flesh and blood. While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said, " No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18) "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24, "God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God ant any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.
5. No one is greater than God and no one can direct Him...but Jesus acknowledged someone greater than himself whose will was distinct from his own. Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a "good master" in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded, "Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God..." Further more, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but thine be done," and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
I hate muslims. Jesus was Gods son. He was Gods gift to us.
-
Well then, is Jesus the son of God because he raised the dead? If so, then what about Ezekiel who is said to have raised many more dead bodies than Jesus ever did. Ezekiel is said to have raised a whole city from the dead (Ezekiel 37:1-9) :)
Jesus was the son of God because he raised himself from the dead.
-
Jesus was a carpenter with a knack for theatrics.
-
Jesus was a magician con artist.
-
If you say so. I guess it isn't my place to defend him so I won't try anymore.
-
Why the others and not Jesus?
/thread
-
At last we agree about something. It isn't your place to defend a supposedly all powerful being, governing life, death, and being in all universes and at all times.
-
At last we agree about something. It isn't your place to defend a supposedly all powerful being, governing life, death, and being in all universes and at all times.
I don't believe that he governs what we do. If he did then everyone would be Christian. He gives us the freedom to choose.
-
He governs how everything will turn out in the end, but we still have free will.
-
We know what will happen in the end. It is all in Revelations. And yes we do have free will because we choose how to live our own life.
-
He governs how everything will turn out in the end, but we still have free will.
Which contradicts itself, obviously. If God knows how we will end, why send even one person to hell? A benevolent God would not do such a thing to his beloved creations.
/god
with a puff of logical, he's gone.
-
Not quite. God doesn't have to follow logic.
-
He governs how everything will turn out in the end, but we still have free will.
Which contradicts itself, obviously. If God knows how we will end, why send even one person to hell? A benevolent God would not do such a thing to his beloved creations.
/god
with a puff of logical, he's gone.
When I grab my dog by the collar I know he will try to run which lets me pull him up by the collar and steer him.
So does he lack free will because I know what he'll do? Is he forced to run?
-
He governs how everything will turn out in the end, but we still have free will.
Which contradicts itself, obviously. If God knows how we will end, why send even one person to hell? A benevolent God would not do such a thing to his beloved creations.
/god
with a puff of logical, he's gone.
When I grab my dog by the collar I know he will try to run which lets me pull him up by the collar and steer him.
So does he lack free will because I know what he'll do? Is he forced to run?
You excel at the use of straw-men, but why would God grab me by the collar?
-
When I grab my dog by the collar I know he will try to run which lets me pull him up by the collar and steer him.
So does he lack free will because I know what he'll do? Is he forced to run?
(http://soundbiteblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/scarecrow.gif)
-
He governs how everything will turn out in the end, but we still have free will.
Which contradicts itself, obviously. If God knows how we will end, why send even one person to hell? A benevolent God would not do such a thing to his beloved creations.
/god
with a puff of logical, he's gone.
When I grab my dog by the collar I know he will try to run which lets me pull him up by the collar and steer him.
So does he lack free will because I know what he'll do? Is he forced to run?
You excel at the use of straw-men, but why would God grab me by the collar?
Actually your statement is a straw man. You say that knowledge of what someone will do means they have no free will because they have to do what you know they'll do. I know what my dog will do, does he lack free will?
-
He governs how everything will turn out in the end, but we still have free will.
Which contradicts itself, obviously. If God knows how we will end, why send even one person to hell? A benevolent God would not do such a thing to his beloved creations.
/god
with a puff of logical, he's gone.
When I grab my dog by the collar I know he will try to run which lets me pull him up by the collar and steer him.
So does he lack free will because I know what he'll do? Is he forced to run?
You excel at the use of straw-men, but why would God grab me by the collar?
Actually your statement is a straw man. You say that knowledge of what someone will do means they have no free will because they have to do what you know they'll do. I know what my dog will do, does he lack free will?
How is my statement a strawman? I was responding to your fallacy.
-
He governs how everything will turn out in the end, but we still have free will.
Which contradicts itself, obviously. If God knows how we will end, why send even one person to hell? A benevolent God would not do such a thing to his beloved creations.
/god
with a puff of logical, he's gone.
When I grab my dog by the collar I know he will try to run which lets me pull him up by the collar and steer him.
So does he lack free will because I know what he'll do? Is he forced to run?
You excel at the use of straw-men, but why would God grab me by the collar?
Actually your statement is a straw man. You say that knowledge of what someone will do means they have no free will because they have to do what you know they'll do. I know what my dog will do, does he lack free will?
I disagree with your argument. I think the possibility of exact future prediction implies determinism, therefore eliminating free will. So, if you could know exactly what your dog will do, then he has no free will, nor does anyone or anything else.
-
He governs how everything will turn out in the end, but we still have free will.
Which contradicts itself, obviously. If God knows how we will end, why send even one person to hell? A benevolent God would not do such a thing to his beloved creations.
/god
with a puff of logical, he's gone.
When I grab my dog by the collar I know he will try to run which lets me pull him up by the collar and steer him.
So does he lack free will because I know what he'll do? Is he forced to run?
You excel at the use of straw-men, but why would God grab me by the collar?
Actually your statement is a straw man. You say that knowledge of what someone will do means they have no free will because they have to do what you know they'll do. I know what my dog will do, does he lack free will?
I disagree with your argument. I think the possibility of exact future prediction implies determinism, therefore eliminating free will. So, if you could know exactly what your dog will do, then he has no free will, nor does anyone or anything else.
I think ability to predict does not prohibit free will. Free will does not require randomness. Simply it means you are not forced to do something.
-
If God knows the outcome of your life before you are even born, how is anything you do a choice?
-
If God knows the outcome of your life before you are even born, how is anything you do a choice?
Thank you.
-
That is the exact argument I just made, but raist just disagreed with no justification.
-
I took out all those nasty big words.
-
If there is a God that is omnipotent, then he knows everything. If he knows everything then he knows the future. If he knows the future then your path is determined already. Even if he chooses to ignore it, you still have no free will because your path has already been determined. There's the illusion of freewill, but there is no freewill.
Reasonable argument? Flaws?
-
I guess I should start talking dumber
-
It's not your fault. You've been away for too long.
-
I guess I should start talking dumber
Oh, sorry. I just read your argument about determinism.
-
I understand what you guys are saying. I just don't believe that because your path is determined you didn't choose it. Yes people are predictable. Maybe I misunderstand the definition of free will. I don't believe that the human brain is capable of making random decisions anyways. The human brain is wired by the things that happened. So the sum of your experienced in life wire your brain in a way that if you knew enough you could figure out every choice a person will make. Does this mean the choice is not made? Maybe it is because I focus more on biology than on spirituality. I think free will is more about making a choice, and less about freedom. Sure you can't choose what you won't choose, but this is more a redundant statement, because if you are destined to choose choice a and you choose choice b an omnipotent being would have known you would choose choice b.
Sorry if i'm rambling, to sum it up, i think free will is more about the freedom to make a dumb choice, than about the ability for your choice to be unknown.
-
I would argue that determination is the absolute antithesis of a free will. There is no ability not to choose, and only one choice is possible, therefore there is an unfree will. There is no 'ability' in that system, the will is essentially impotent.
-
I would argue that determination is the absolute antithesis of a free will. There is no ability not to choose, and only one choice is possible, therefore there is an unfree will. There is no 'ability' in that system, the will is essentially impotent.
Would we have free will if we could go back in time and change our decisions somehow?
-
Not if your decision to go back in time was part of a deterministic system.
-
Not if your decision to go back in time was part of a deterministic system.
Good point.
So... what's the topic again? Why Jesus, not others?
-
I would argue that determination is the absolute antithesis of a free will. There is no ability not to choose, and only one choice is possible, therefore there is an unfree will. There is no 'ability' in that system, the will is essentially impotent.
I disagree, there is an ability to choose, it is simply the choice is known. You are using choice out of context. Choice is a decision made based on the merits of each side. How do we decide these merits? Our brain. Our brain is completely wired and the choice could be known with enough information. Therefore the word choice is meaningless, with your definition.
-
I would argue that determination is the absolute antithesis of a free will. There is no ability not to choose, and only one choice is possible, therefore there is an unfree will. There is no 'ability' in that system, the will is essentially impotent.
I disagree, there is an ability to choose, it is simply the choice is known. You are using choice out of context. Choice is a decision made based on the merits of each side. How do we decide these merits? Our brain. Our brain is completely wired and the choice could be known with enough information. Therefore the word choice is meaningless, with your definition.
You are under the illusion that you are choosing, but you do not have free will under this system.
-
I would argue that determination is the absolute antithesis of a free will. There is no ability not to choose, and only one choice is possible, therefore there is an unfree will. There is no 'ability' in that system, the will is essentially impotent.
I disagree, there is an ability to choose, it is simply the choice is known. You are using choice out of context. Choice is a decision made based on the merits of each side. How do we decide these merits? Our brain. Our brain is completely wired and the choice could be known with enough information. Therefore the word choice is meaningless, with your definition.
You are under the illusion that you are choosing, but you do not have free will under this system.
What is the definition of free will? I state that may brain does exactly as it wishes. I am the sum of my brain at least intellectually. So I do exactly what I want. Therefore everything i do is my will.
-
I would argue that determination is the absolute antithesis of a free will. There is no ability not to choose, and only one choice is possible, therefore there is an unfree will. There is no 'ability' in that system, the will is essentially impotent.
I disagree, there is an ability to choose, it is simply the choice is known. You are using choice out of context. Choice is a decision made based on the merits of each side. How do we decide these merits? Our brain. Our brain is completely wired and the choice could be known with enough information. Therefore the word choice is meaningless, with your definition.
You are under the illusion that you are choosing, but you do not have free will under this system.
What is the definition of free will? I state that may brain does exactly as it wishes. I am the sum of my brain at least intellectually. So I do exactly what I want. Therefore everything i do is my will.
Yes, but I thought we were arguing theology... not biology?
-
I would argue that determination is the absolute antithesis of a free will. There is no ability not to choose, and only one choice is possible, therefore there is an unfree will. There is no 'ability' in that system, the will is essentially impotent.
I disagree, there is an ability to choose, it is simply the choice is known. You are using choice out of context. Choice is a decision made based on the merits of each side. How do we decide these merits? Our brain. Our brain is completely wired and the choice could be known with enough information. Therefore the word choice is meaningless, with your definition.
You are under the illusion that you are choosing, but you do not have free will under this system.
What is the definition of free will? I state that may brain does exactly as it wishes. I am the sum of my brain at least intellectually. So I do exactly what I want. Therefore everything i do is my will.
Yes, but I thought we were arguing theology... not biology?
Your point being? Theology still has to base itself within fact.
-
in a deterministic system, there is no choice. Choice is simply an illusion, a product of a mind that experiences linear time.
-
I would argue that determination is the absolute antithesis of a free will. There is no ability not to choose, and only one choice is possible, therefore there is an unfree will. There is no 'ability' in that system, the will is essentially impotent.
I disagree, there is an ability to choose, it is simply the choice is known. You are using choice out of context. Choice is a decision made based on the merits of each side. How do we decide these merits? Our brain. Our brain is completely wired and the choice could be known with enough information. Therefore the word choice is meaningless, with your definition.
You are under the illusion that you are choosing, but you do not have free will under this system.
What is the definition of free will? I state that may brain does exactly as it wishes. I am the sum of my brain at least intellectually. So I do exactly what I want. Therefore everything i do is my will.
Yes, but I thought we were arguing theology... not biology?
Your point being? Theology still has to base itself within fact.
No theology is based within fact.
-
in a deterministic system, there is no choice. Choice is simply an illusion, a product of a mind that experiences linear time.
That only says that from an outside perspective we do not choose. Since we lack that perspective you can not prove that.
I am arguing that we do have choice.
-
We're running around in circles here.
-
not necessarily a circle. I think that time can be viewed from a non-linear context via reason, i.e. we can remove ourselves from our condition and extrapolate truth. Therefore, in a nonlinear context of time, a deterministic system would eliminate choice as a selection between possibilities. There are no possibilities, only realities.
-
not necessarily a circle. I think that time can be viewed from a non-linear context via reason, i.e. we can remove ourselves from our condition and extrapolate truth. Therefore, in a nonlinear context of time, a deterministic system would eliminate choice as a selection between possibilities. There are no possibilities, only realities.
A cone?
-
not necessarily a circle. I think that time can be viewed from a non-linear context via reason, i.e. we can remove ourselves from our condition and extrapolate truth. Therefore, in a nonlinear context of time, a deterministic system would eliminate choice as a selection between possibilities. There are no possibilities, only realities.
I like this statement. I could see how from an outside reference it all becomes input output. No real choice. Just a beginning and a predetermined output.
I've never thought of free will in the ridiculous way. I've always thought of it in a more reserved way. There is no outside force driving the decision.
-
well, in a linear context it is useless to talk of the will being anything other than free. However, the freedom of the will is a very important concept in many philosophical and metaphysical systems.
-
well, in a linear context it is useless to talk of the will being anything other than free. However, the freedom of the will is a very important concept in many philosophical and metaphysical systems.
I don't doubt this. I haven't studies much into this. Any basic theology/philosophy courses you'd recommend?
-
I went into university as a sociology major, until I took intro to phil and intro to poli sci. I realized that the possible world of truth was far greater than I had ever imagined, and was in a constant state of mind blow. I suggest getting an intro to philosophy book, like this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wWgCsbryL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Big-Questions-Introduction-Philosophy-Source/dp/0534625509 (http://www.amazon.com/Big-Questions-Introduction-Philosophy-Source/dp/0534625509)
-
well, in a linear context it is useless to talk of the will being anything other than free. However, the freedom of the will is a very important concept in many philosophical and metaphysical systems.
I don't doubt this. I haven't studies much into this. Any basic theology/philosophy courses you'd recommend?
http://www.philosophy.com/ (http://www.philosophy.com/)
-
So then you consider both Mohammed and Jesus on equal footing. Good. So let me ask you this next - look at this list:
1. Jesus
2. Mohammed
3. David Koresh
All three of these men claimed to be prophets and to receive messages directly from God. What criteria are you using to say that one is greater than the other, or has a more valid message?
You forgot David Icke. He is at least worthy of a top 3 place.
-
roffle
(http://www.urbanhonking.com/universe/Reptoid.jpg)
-
Is that reptilian... Stroking his nipple? :O
-
Haha, I didn't even notice the nipple molestation.
-
Shhh the Anti defamation league will have you for that.
-
I did not read all this thread. I do know that Jesus himself actually claimed to be God.
Now whether or not you believe him is another question.
-
We got really sidetracked on this one.
-
I did not read all this thread. I do know that Jesus himself actually claimed to be God.
Now whether or not you believe him is another question.
Yes Jesus was God in the flesh. But he was also his son. Wait I am confused? I need to read my Bible more often.
-
No no, you nailed it. That's what it says.
-
God in the flesh is referred to as The Son of God. Though they are the same person. Just as the Holy Spirit is God.
The Trinity is hard enough to explain and I think the best way for God to explain it was to call Jesus his son and for Jesus to call himself the son.
Jesus actually claiming to be Yahweh refutes all other claims that he was just the son. If Jesus would have never made this claim then I could see where the confusion would lie.
-
Homoiousianism which maintained that the Son was "like in substance" but not necessarily to be identified with the essence of the Father.
Homoianism which declared that the Son was similar to God the father, without reference to substance or essence. Some supporters of Homoian formulae also supported one of the other descriptions. Other Homoians declared that God the father was so incomparable and ineffably transcendent that even the ideas of likeness, similarity or identity in substance or essence with the subordinate Son and the Holy Spirit were heretical and not justified by the Gospels. They held that the Father was like the Son in some sense but that even to speak of ousia was impertinent speculation.
Heterousianism (including anomoeanism) which held that God the father and the son were unlike in substance and/or attributes.
As a whole christians don't all agree there are more theories
-
No no, the Jews nailed it. That's what it says.
fix'd
-
Haha, I didn't even notice the nipple molestation.
That's the greatest real picture of a reptillian I have ever seen... so arousing.
-
http://furaffinity.net (http://furaffinity.net)
Go there with your faggotry.
-
http://furaffinity.net (http://furaffinity.net)
Go there with your faggotry.
OH YES!
-
http://furaffinity.net (http://furaffinity.net)
Go there with your faggotry.
reported for porn linking. Also for arousing me my interest.
-
http://furaffinity.net (http://furaffinity.net)
Go there with your faggotry.
How did you know about this site? ;)
-
4chan trolls.