The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: lolz at trollz on August 19, 2008, 06:31:51 AM

Title: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: lolz at trollz on August 19, 2008, 06:31:51 AM
Ok FEers, when your ready, post it all here, no distractions please everyone, just the formulas for EA.  You guys get it done, get it agreed on, then we can do an experiment to see if it's consistent with observations. 

Now compute! 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 19, 2008, 06:34:26 AM
There is already a thread for this. (http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=21912.0) It is locked temporarily because it was being trolled. You are officially FES's most redundant citizen. To summarise: in b4 teh lock!
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 19, 2008, 06:39:36 AM
Robosteve hasn't really figured out how the EA works, so atm doing any proper maths is impossible.

Here are some speculative calculations:

First, I calculated that y = x2 / 2r if it is to approximate the effect of a round Earth at short distances (r being the radius of the RE). This means that dy / dx = x / r and therefore dy / dt = (x / r) * (dx / dt). Substituting x = f(t) and y = g(t), you get g'(t) = f(t) * f'(t) / r.

Next, if the speed is to remain constant, then by Pythagoras' theorem f'(t)2 + g'(t)2 = c2. Squaring the above equation, c2 - f'(t)2 = f(t)2 * f'(t)2 / r2. Rearranging this gives:

(http://i33.tinypic.com/fmjpeq.png)
And the solution:
f2 (df/dt)2 = r2 (c2 - (df/dt)2)

f2 = (rc)2 (dt/df)2 - r2

(f2 + r2)0.5 = +/- rc (dt/df)

Integrate (http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp?expr=sqrt(x^2+%2B+r^2)&random=false) w.r.t. f to get the equation in blue.

f * (f2-r2)0.5 - log[ f + (f2-r2)0.5] = +/- 2 r c t

Using a different set of postulates, it works out like this:
I used x(t) and y(t) instead of f(t) and g(t), just because it is more descriptive.

We know (if I understand EAT correctly):
y'(t)2 + x'(t)2 = c2                                       (speed of light is constant)
y''(t) = a                                                    (light accelerates upwards constantly with acceleration a)
y(0) = 0,  x(0) = 0,  y'(0) = 0                        (initial conditions)

y''(t) = a  =>  y'(t) = at  =>  y(t) = at2/2  This is assuming the EA is constant and directed upwards.

So, by pythagoras: (at)2 + x'(t)2 = c2
Re-arrange for x'(t) to get a difficult integral, type into the online integrator (http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp?expr=sqrt(c^2-(ax)^2)&random=false) to get:

x(t) = (c2/2a) arctan (at/{c2-(at)2}0.5) + (t/2)(c2-(at)2)0.5
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: lolz at trollz on August 19, 2008, 07:18:36 AM
There is already a thread for this. (http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=21912.0) It is locked temporarily because it was being trolled. You are officially FES's most redundant citizen. To summarise: in b4 teh lock!

I see no maths...
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: AmateurAstronomer on August 19, 2008, 07:26:29 AM
Robosteve hasn't really figured out how the EA works, so atm doing any proper maths is impossible.

Here are some speculative calculations:

First, I calculated that y = x2 / 2r if it is to approximate the effect of a round Earth at short distances (r being the radius of the RE). This means that dy / dx = x / r and therefore dy / dt = (x / r) * (dx / dt). Substituting x = f(t) and y = g(t), you get g'(t) = f(t) * f'(t) / r.

Next, if the speed is to remain constant, then by Pythagoras' theorem f'(t)2 + g'(t)2 = c2. Squaring the above equation, c2 - f'(t)2 = f(t)2 * f'(t)2 / r2. Rearranging this gives:

(http://i33.tinypic.com/fmjpeq.png)
And the solution:
f2 (df/dt)2 = r2 (c2 - (df/dt)2)

f2 = (rc)2 (dt/df)2 - r2

(f2 + r2)0.5 = +/- rc (dt/df)

Integrate (http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp?expr=sqrt(x^2+%2B+r^2)&random=false) w.r.t. f to get the equation in blue.

f * (f2-r2)0.5 - log[ f + (f2-r2)0.5] = +/- 2 r c t

Using a different set of postulates, it works out like this:
I used x(t) and y(t) instead of f(t) and g(t), just because it is more descriptive.

We know (if I understand EAT correctly):
y'(t)2 + x'(t)2 = c2                                       (speed of light is constant)
y''(t) = a                                                    (light accelerates upwards constantly with acceleration a)
y(0) = 0,  x(0) = 0,  y'(0) = 0                        (initial conditions)

y''(t) = a  =>  y'(t) = at  =>  y(t) = at2/2  This is assuming the EA is constant and directed upwards.

So, by pythagoras: (at)2 + x'(t)2 = c2
Re-arrange for x'(t) to get a difficult integral, type into the online integrator (http://integrals.wolfram.com/index.jsp?expr=sqrt(c^2-(ax)^2)&random=false) to get:

x(t) = (c2/2a) arctan (at/{c2-(at)2}0.5) + (t/2)(c2-(at)2)0.5

The speed of light was derived by sending a focused beam of light along a 1 mile long perfectly straight mineshaft. This beam did not bend. Does this fit with your calculations?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 19, 2008, 07:33:46 AM
The speed of light was derived by sending a focused beam of light along a 1 mile long perfectly straight mineshaft. This beam did not bend. Does this fit with your calculations?

First off, I don't believe FE or EAT, I just find this an interesting theory.

You say the mineshaft was straight. How was this straightness measured? Spirit level? A beam of light? Looking down the length of it and seeing it is straight?

Over 1 mile light wouldn't deviate enough to be significant.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 19, 2008, 07:34:15 AM
I see no maths...

When there is maths to post, it will be posted in that thread. Again, redundant thread is redundant.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: lolz at trollz on August 19, 2008, 07:34:35 AM
The speed of light was derived by sending a focused beam of light along a 1 mile long perfectly straight mineshaft. This beam did not bend. Does this fit with your calculations?

Wait wait, let everyone finish doing it, they will just squeal conspiracy on that experiment.  Once it's done, there will be a simple experiment to prove or disprove it.  


And hopefully provide some lolz. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: lolz at trollz on August 19, 2008, 07:35:11 AM
I see no maths...

When there is maths to post, it will be posted in that thread. Again, redundant thread is redundant.

No theory boy has no theory. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 19, 2008, 07:36:45 AM
There is already a thread for this. (http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=21912.0) It is locked temporarily because it was being trolled. You are officially FES's most redundant citizen. To summarise: in b4 teh lock!

It's locked because you have no idea what you are talking about. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: AmateurAstronomer on August 19, 2008, 07:39:51 AM
The speed of light was derived by sending a focused beam of light along a 1 mile long perfectly straight mineshaft. This beam did not bend. Does this fit with your calculations?

First off, I don't believe FE or EAT, I just find this an interesting theory.

You say the mineshaft was straight. How was this straightness measured? Spirit level? A beam of light? Looking down the length of it and seeing it is straight?

Over 1 mile light wouldn't deviate enough to be significant.

Do your own research... That's just a soundbite I remembered from high school.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 19, 2008, 08:09:55 AM
OK, I've come up with a way to test EAT theory, but it requires a fair bit of equipment.

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ghazwozza/EAT-test.png)

A and B are fibre optic cables. A is arranged so that it would be straight (but appear curved) on a FE with EAT. B is arranged so that it would be straight on a RE (and appear straight on a FE + EAT, but not actually be straight).

Simply split laser light to travel down both fibres. At the other end, the beams are combined in an inferometer. This allows you to see which beam arrived first.

FE+EAT predicts A will arrive first. RET predicts B will arrive first.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on August 19, 2008, 08:45:03 AM
Over 1 mile light wouldn't deviate enough to be significant.

According to the EAT, the light should bend away from the surface of the Earth over 1 foot.  That is a significant difference if you are expecting something to be accurate within fractions of an inch.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 19, 2008, 09:01:36 AM
OK, I've come up with a way to test EAT theory, but it requires a fair bit of equipment.

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ghazwozza/EAT-test.png)

A and B are fibre optic cables. A is arranged so that it would be straight (but appear curved) on a FE with EAT. B is arranged so that it would be straight on a RE (and appear straight on a FE + EAT, but not actually be straight).

Simply split laser light to travel down both fibres. At the other end, the beams are combined in an inferometer. This allows you to see which beam arrived first.

FE+EAT predicts A will arrive first. RET predicts B will arrive first.

I don't think this will work. If FE+EAT is correct, then the light in A will keep getting bent upwards and reflected back down away from the edge of the optic fibre. This will result in a path that zigzags through the fibre optic. Of course, the same effect will be observed if RET is true and the light tries to follow a straight line through a curved optic fibre. This zigzag effect will probably be of greater significance to the time it takes the light to go from one end to the other than will the shape of the Earth.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on August 19, 2008, 09:08:20 AM
OK, I've come up with a way to test EAT theory, but it requires a fair bit of equipment.

A and B are fibre optic cables. A is arranged so that it would be straight (but appear curved) on a FE with EAT. B is arranged so that it would be straight on a RE (and appear straight on a FE + EAT, but not actually be straight).

Simply split laser light to travel down both fibres. At the other end, the beams are combined in an inferometer. This allows you to see which beam arrived first.

FE+EAT predicts A will arrive first. RET predicts B will arrive first.

Of course, just setting up the experiment would give you the answer about which one was longer.  Just measure the amount of cable on each "leg" of the experiment as you string it up.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 19, 2008, 09:14:42 AM
Of course, just setting up the experiment would give you the answer about which one was longer.  Just measure the amount of cable on each "leg" of the experiment as you string it up.

True, if you make it large enough. I was thinking that my experiment could be performed in a lab, maybe over just a few metres.

I'm not sure what would be cheaper and easier -- getting hold of a laser and inferometer, or a few miles of cable.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: jdoe on August 19, 2008, 01:11:06 PM
Here's another approach regarding the OP.  Why don't you just Lorentz transform the straight-line path of light in an inertial frame to an accelerating frame?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 19, 2008, 01:13:33 PM
Here's another approach regarding the OP.  Why don't you just Lorentz transform the straight-line path of light in an inertial frame to an accelerating frame?

I do believe you may have simplified the necessary calculations quite considerably, good sir! :o
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: jdoe on August 19, 2008, 01:34:55 PM
Here's another approach regarding the OP.  Why don't you just Lorentz transform the straight-line path of light in an inertial frame to an accelerating frame?

I do believe you may have simplified the necessary calculations quite considerably, good sir! :o

Honestly, the calculations haven't simplified much at all.  I've been messing around with the equations, and I obtained an expression for the path of light in an accelerated reference frame.  The path is not parabolic and the expression is very complicated. 

Using the conditions of the height of the sun, ~4800km, and the radius of the spotlight, ~10000km, I'm trying to solve for the required acceleration.  It's going to require some numerical approximations, and I don't know if I get a precise value or not.  So far it, just by playing with numbers, it seems that an acceleration of around 10^10 m/s^2 will be required.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Hammod on August 19, 2008, 01:39:06 PM
Quote
Using the conditions of the height of the sun, ~4800km

Am I missing something, since when did the sun get that close to the earth? If it was that close, the heat would be so intense that the earth could not support life.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Mohnzh on August 19, 2008, 01:42:18 PM
OK, I've come up with a way to test EAT theory, but it requires a fair bit of equipment.

(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/ghazwozza/EAT-test.png)

A and B are fibre optic cables. A is arranged so that it would be straight (but appear curved) on a FE with EAT. B is arranged so that it would be straight on a RE (and appear straight on a FE + EAT, but not actually be straight).

Simply split laser light to travel down both fibres. At the other end, the beams are combined in an inferometer. This allows you to see which beam arrived first.

FE+EAT predicts A will arrive first. RET predicts B will arrive first.

I don't think this will work. If FE+EAT is correct, then the light in A will keep getting bent upwards and reflected back down away from the edge of the optic fibre. This will result in a path that zigzags through the fibre optic. Of course, the same effect will be observed if RET is true and the light tries to follow a straight line through a curved optic fibre. This zigzag effect will probably be of greater significance to the time it takes the light to go from one end to the other than will the shape of the Earth.

Umm...the concept of fiberoptic cables is that the difference in refractive index between the cable and the medium is such that light will bounce off the edges of the inside of the cable as it travels down. All light in fiberoptic cables travels in a zigzag fashion. In fact, if light were to bend, long-distance fiberoptic cables could not work as eventually the light would be too angled to continue reflecting. It would reach a point where its vector relative to the edge of the fiber is so direct that it would not reflect. Thank goodness light doesn't bend. Otherwise we wouldn't have fiberoptic technology.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 19, 2008, 01:47:55 PM
Umm...the concept of fiberoptic cables is that the difference in refractive index between the cable and the medium is such that light will bounce off the edges of the inside of the cable as it travels down. All light in fiberoptic cables travels in a zigzag fashion. In fact, if light were to bend, long-distance fiberoptic cables could not work as eventually the light would be too angled to continue reflecting. It would reach a point where its vector relative to the edge of the fiber is so direct that it would not reflect. Thank goodness light doesn't bend. Otherwise we wouldn't have fiberoptic technology.

You misunderstand the EA, and you fail to acknowledge that in a perfectly straight optical fibre light (if it travels in a straight line) would not need to zigzag to get to the other end.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 19, 2008, 01:51:05 PM
Honestly, the calculations haven't simplified much at all.  I've been messing around with the equations, and I obtained an expression for the path of light in an accelerated reference frame.  The path is not parabolic and the expression is very complicated. 

Using the conditions of the height of the sun, ~4800km, and the radius of the spotlight, ~10000km, I'm trying to solve for the required acceleration.  It's going to require some numerical approximations, and I don't know if I get a precise value or not.  So far it, just by playing with numbers, it seems that an acceleration of around 10^10 m/s^2 will be required.

I was using a different method of trying to figure it out. I worked out the concavity of the secant curve formed by plotting the height of a light ray tangential to the surface of the Earth at the point where it meets the Earth, and attempted to construct a parabolic arc with equal concavity to the secant curve at that point, such that it would approximate the effect of a round Earth over short distances.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Mohnzh on August 19, 2008, 01:58:43 PM
Umm...the concept of fiberoptic cables is that the difference in refractive index between the cable and the medium is such that light will bounce off the edges of the inside of the cable as it travels down. All light in fiberoptic cables travels in a zigzag fashion. In fact, if light were to bend, long-distance fiberoptic cables could not work as eventually the light would be too angled to continue reflecting. It would reach a point where its vector relative to the edge of the fiber is so direct that it would not reflect. Thank goodness light doesn't bend. Otherwise we wouldn't have fiberoptic technology.

You misunderstand the EA, and you fail to acknowledge that in a perfectly straight optical fibre light (if it travels in a straight line) would not need to zigzag to get to the other end.

It is only theoretically possible for a photon to enter a fiberoptic cable in perfect parallel to the cable (or perfectly orthogonal to the beginning of the cable). Because it is not practically possible, all light will zigzag inside of a fiberoptic cable - even a perfectly straight one. Suppose, however, that you do manage to get a photon to do this. It would be undetectable in relation to the numerous photons that will follow the "zigzag" pattern. The next argument would be LASER light, as all the photons should propagate parallel to each other. However, we do not have the technology to ensure perfectly ideal orthogonality. As such, even the LASER photons would be refracted, even if only slightly, upon entering the optic cable. Even supposing you managed a test where you did get perfect orthogonality, it would be virtually impossible to repeat. You simply cannot achieve such perfect conditions that this could work. Even vibrations of the earth or a single dust particle or even a handful of large molecules would cause light scattering so that perfect orthogonality could not be achieved. This would occur even if the LASER was in contact with the cable inside of the best vacuum achievable with our technology. Not to mention the variance in the synchronization of the LASER or tolerance level for non-simultaneous emission.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 19, 2008, 02:04:05 PM
It is only theoretically possible for a photon to enter a fiberoptic cable in perfect parallel to the cable (or perfectly orthogonal to the beginning of the cable). Because it is not practically possible, all light will zigzag inside of a fiberoptic cable - even a perfectly straight one. Suppose, however, that you do manage to get a photon to do this. It would be undetectable in relation to the numerous photons that will follow the "zigzag" pattern. The next argument would be LASER light, as all the photons should propagate parallel to each other. However, we do not have the technology to ensure perfectly ideal orthogonality. As such, even the LASER photons would be refracted, even if only slightly, upon entering the optic cable. Even supposing you managed a test where you did get perfect orthogonality, it would be virtually impossible to repeat. You simply cannot achieve such perfect conditions that this could work. Even vibrations of the earth or a single dust particle or even a handful of large molecules would cause light scattering so that perfect orthogonality could not be achieved. This would occur even if the LASER was in contact with the cable inside of the best vacuum achievable with our technology. Not to mention the variance in the synchronization of the LASER or tolerance level for non-simultaneous emission.

Okay, fair point. Still, the zigzag effect would be more pronounced in a curved optical fibre than a straight one.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Mohnzh on August 19, 2008, 02:21:19 PM
It is only theoretically possible for a photon to enter a fiberoptic cable in perfect parallel to the cable (or perfectly orthogonal to the beginning of the cable). Because it is not practically possible, all light will zigzag inside of a fiberoptic cable - even a perfectly straight one. Suppose, however, that you do manage to get a photon to do this. It would be undetectable in relation to the numerous photons that will follow the "zigzag" pattern. The next argument would be LASER light, as all the photons should propagate parallel to each other. However, we do not have the technology to ensure perfectly ideal orthogonality. As such, even the LASER photons would be refracted, even if only slightly, upon entering the optic cable. Even supposing you managed a test where you did get perfect orthogonality, it would be virtually impossible to repeat. You simply cannot achieve such perfect conditions that this could work. Even vibrations of the earth or a single dust particle or even a handful of large molecules would cause light scattering so that perfect orthogonality could not be achieved. This would occur even if the LASER was in contact with the cable inside of the best vacuum achievable with our technology. Not to mention the variance in the synchronization of the LASER or tolerance level for non-simultaneous emission.

Okay, fair point. Still, the zigzag effect would be more pronounced in a curved optical fibre than a straight one.

Congratulations on your first concession (at least that I have ever witnessed). As to the more pronounced effect, that seems intuitively correct, but I seem to recall that one of the nifty features of a fiberoptic cable is that it would actually average out so that the amount of time it takes light to travel a severely coiled fiberoptic cable (or any random pattern) is exactly the same as light traveling another cable of the exact same length (worked out mathematically, not experimentally). I cannot remember the details, as I am nearly certain the phrae "averaging out" conveys the wrong concept. I did this research about 4 years ago while preparing a patent. I was considering the use of fiberoptic cable in the design of an instrument. The design was abandoned for something that put the light source and detector in nearly direct contact with the sample, eliminating the need for fiberoptics, so my study of fiberoptics was only tangential to my work and not done with vigor.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 19, 2008, 02:24:36 PM
Congratulations on your first concession (at least that I have ever witnessed). As to the more pronounced effect, that seems intuitively correct, but I seem to recall that one of the nifty features of a fiberoptic cable is that it would actually average out so that the amount of time it takes light to travel a severely coiled fiberoptic cable (or any random pattern) is exactly the same as light traveling another cable of the exact same length (worked out mathematically, not experimentally). I cannot remember the details, as I am nearly certain the phrae "averaging out" conveys the wrong concept. I did this research about 4 years ago while preparing a patent. I was considering the use of fiberoptic cable in the design of an instrument. The design was abandoned for something that put the light source and detector in nearly direct contact with the sample, eliminating the need for fiberoptics, so my study of fiberoptics was only tangential to my work and not done with vigor.

I see. Well, if this is true, then the experiment would certainly work. Is there anyone here with more experience dealing with optic fibre?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Mohnzh on August 19, 2008, 02:41:14 PM
Congratulations on your first concession (at least that I have ever witnessed). As to the more pronounced effect, that seems intuitively correct, but I seem to recall that one of the nifty features of a fiberoptic cable is that it would actually average out so that the amount of time it takes light to travel a severely coiled fiberoptic cable (or any random pattern) is exactly the same as light traveling another cable of the exact same length (worked out mathematically, not experimentally). I cannot remember the details, as I am nearly certain the phrae "averaging out" conveys the wrong concept. I did this research about 4 years ago while preparing a patent. I was considering the use of fiberoptic cable in the design of an instrument. The design was abandoned for something that put the light source and detector in nearly direct contact with the sample, eliminating the need for fiberoptics, so my study of fiberoptics was only tangential to my work and not done with vigor.

I see. Well, if this is true, then the experiment would certainly work. Is there anyone here with more experience dealing with optic fibre?

I second that call. I am by no means an expert and only have understanding of some of the foundational elements of the technology.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 20, 2008, 06:58:07 AM
The reason I proposed using two fibre optic cables (rather than one cable and one laser beam) is that any slow-down due to the ligt zig-zagging in the cable would be present in both beams (A and B), so a camparison of arrival times would still be valid.

In a few days I'm going to see someone who is quite knowledgeable about fibre optics, so I'll put your questions to him.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 20, 2008, 07:31:57 AM
So I have a bending light math question.  In the FE, light makes it from the sun to the earth in as little as .01 seconds to around .04 seconds.  How do we not notice the EA as it would have to be super strong? 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: joelwyland on August 20, 2008, 10:50:41 AM
This zigzag effect will probably be of greater significance to the time it takes the light to go from one end to the other than will the shape of the Earth.

Oh, well, if it's "probably" going to be of greater significance, then let's just assume it does.

Again, this site is just satirical. You guys enjoy freaking all of these people out. People see that you "believe" the Earth is flat, their brains melt out of their ears when they see the sheer stupidity of the argument, and you enjoy a silent laugh for having trolled someone THAT hard.

Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 20, 2008, 01:05:48 PM
So I have a bending light math question.  In the FE, light makes it from the sun to the earth in as little as .01 seconds to around .04 seconds.  How do we not notice the EA as it would have to be super strong? 

We have nothing to compare it to. We have never seen the sun unaffected by the EA.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: markjo on August 20, 2008, 01:23:08 PM
So I have a bending light math question.  In the FE, light makes it from the sun to the earth in as little as .01 seconds to around .04 seconds.  How do we not notice the EA as it would have to be super strong? 

We have nothing to compare it to. We have never seen the sun unaffected by the EA.

Then it seems that you are going to have a lot of fun testing your theory.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 20, 2008, 05:05:14 PM
So I have a bending light math question.  In the FE, light makes it from the sun to the earth in as little as .01 seconds to around .04 seconds.  How do we not notice the EA as it would have to be super strong? 

We have nothing to compare it to. We have never seen the sun unaffected by the EA.

But I thought you claim vertical light is unaffected.
Also why did you not acknowledge the fact that the EA would have to be super strong?   
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 20, 2008, 05:10:13 PM
But I thought you claim vertical light is unaffected.
Also why did you not acknowledge the fact that the EA would have to be super strong?   

Vertical light is unaffected. And the EA is quite probably super strong, in terms of the acceleration it causes as a function of time.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 20, 2008, 05:19:11 PM
But I thought you claim vertical light is unaffected.
Also why did you not acknowledge the fact that the EA would have to be super strong?   

Vertical light is unaffected. And the EA is quite probably super strong, in terms of the acceleration it causes as a function of time.

Well, if the EA can bend light enough to cause a noticeable change at 10 km then it has to be super strong.  It would take light around .000033 seconds to go 10 km.  If I did any math close to correctly, its around a 3030 m/s^2 acceleration. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 20, 2008, 05:19:56 PM
Well, if the EA can bend light enough to cause a noticeable change at 10 km then it has to be super strong.  It would take light around .000033 seconds to go 10 km.  If I did any math close to correctly, its around a 3030 m/s^2 acceleration. 

That is horizontal light.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 20, 2008, 05:21:07 PM
Well, if the EA can bend light enough to cause a noticeable change at 10 km then it has to be super strong.  It would take light around .000033 seconds to go 10 km.  If I did any math close to correctly, its around a 3030 m/s^2 acceleration. 

That is horizontal light.

Yes. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 20, 2008, 05:21:49 PM
Yes. 

So we are in agreement that it can work.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 20, 2008, 05:22:00 PM
Yes. 

So we are in agreement that it can work.
no
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 20, 2008, 05:22:33 PM
no

Then what is your point?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 20, 2008, 05:22:56 PM
no

Then what is your point?

Your theory is unsound.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 20, 2008, 05:26:44 PM
Your theory is unsound.

Making unjustified claims is no way to debate.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 20, 2008, 05:28:00 PM
Your theory is unsound.

Making unjustified claims is no way to debate.

It was justified. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 20, 2008, 05:28:23 PM
It was justified. 

Show me your justification, then.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 20, 2008, 05:30:36 PM
It was justified. 

Show me your justification, then.

3030 m/s^2 would be noticeable.  There will also be more arguments to come. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 20, 2008, 05:31:48 PM
3030 m/s^2 would be noticeable.  There will also be more arguments to come. 

It is noticeable, when the light is horizontal.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 20, 2008, 05:35:26 PM
3030 m/s^2 would be noticeable.  There will also be more arguments to come. 

It is noticeable, when the light is horizontal.

You know it would also lead to a non linear horizon distance right? 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 20, 2008, 05:38:27 PM
You know it would also lead to a non linear horizon distance right? 

Be less ambiguous.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 20, 2008, 05:40:20 PM
I guess that could be an answer to my question.  A crappy answer though. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 20, 2008, 06:03:42 PM
I guess that could be an answer to my question.  A crappy answer though. 

Non linear with respect to what? Time? Angle at which horizon is being observed? Elevation of observer? The mass of the observer's genitals?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on August 20, 2008, 11:51:23 PM
It is noticeable, when the light is horizontal.

Except it isn't.  Do I have to post the picture of the interferometer again?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 21, 2008, 12:31:26 AM
Except it isn't.  Do I have to post the picture of the interferometer again?

I don't consider that adequate evidence against it. I shall expand on my reasoning when I create the official document outlining the EA.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: lolz at trollz on August 21, 2008, 04:48:42 AM
when I create the official document outlining the EA.

Oh, you mean never. 

Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: markjo on August 21, 2008, 07:27:20 AM
Except it isn't.  Do I have to post the picture of the interferometer again?

I don't consider that adequate evidence against it. I shall expand on my reasoning when I create the official document outlining the EA.

You do realize that it's bad form to argue an incomplete an incomplete hypothesis.  I believe your EA document falls under the category of "vaporware".
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 21, 2008, 07:44:37 AM
I guess that could be an answer to my question.  A crappy answer though. 

Non linear with respect to what? Time? Angle at which horizon is being observed? Elevation of observer? The mass of the observer's genitals?

The distance to the horizon would depend on the angle of the light.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: lolz at trollz on August 21, 2008, 08:23:29 AM
All this arguing is completely pointless, because Robosteve still fails to deliver. 

I mean, he's saying all this stuff about what observations his EA can account for, but he still hasn't shown how it can even work. 

Untill some sort of equation is presented, then everything he says with regard to the EA is just meaning less fluff.

Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 21, 2008, 09:16:05 AM
The distance to the horizon would depend on the angle of the light.

As it does in RET.

All this arguing is completely pointless, because Robosteve still fails to deliver. 

I mean, he's saying all this stuff about what observations his EA can account for, but he still hasn't shown how it can even work. 

Untill some sort of equation is presented, then everything he says with regard to the EA is just meaning less fluff.

Here's an equation:

y = x2 / 2r

And another:

(dx/dt)2 + (dy/dt)2 = c2
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 21, 2008, 09:18:54 AM
y = x2 / 2r

How was this derived?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 21, 2008, 09:54:05 AM
y = x2 / 2r

How was this derived?

By calculating the concavity of the expected secant curve traced out by a light ray tangential to the surface of the round Earth at the point where it meets the Earth, and then using that to calculate the equation for the parabolic arc traced out by a light ray in FET with the EA, such that it will have the same concavity when horizontal. r is the radius of the round Earth.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 21, 2008, 10:27:26 AM
y = x2 / 2r

How was this derived?

By calculating the concavity of the expected secant curve traced out by a light ray tangential to the surface of the round Earth at the point where it meets the Earth, and then using that to calculate the equation for the parabolic arc traced out by a light ray in FET with the EA, such that it will have the same concavity when horizontal. r is the radius of the round Earth.

You're assuming light travels in parabolic arcs. I see no reason that this should be true.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 21, 2008, 10:53:44 AM
You're assuming light travels in parabolic arcs. I see no reason that this should be true.

I don't see a reason why it has to be true either. But I thought I'd pick a shape and run with it, and see what came of it. Perhaps the complexity of the calculations is a sign that it's a false assumption.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 21, 2008, 12:42:26 PM
What shape would a ray of light trace out in a uniform gravitational field in GR? I think this would be the most logical shape to assume. Maybe it is a parabola.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 21, 2008, 01:21:43 PM
The distance to the horizon would depend on the angle of the light.

As it does in RET.

All this arguing is completely pointless, because Robosteve still fails to deliver. 

I mean, he's saying all this stuff about what observations his EA can account for, but he still hasn't shown how it can even work. 

Untill some sort of equation is presented, then everything he says with regard to the EA is just meaning less fluff.

Here's an equation:

y = x2 / 2r

And another:

(dx/dt)2 + (dy/dt)2 = c2

You are still not getting it. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 21, 2008, 01:47:47 PM
What shape would a ray of light trace out in a uniform gravitational field in GR? I think this would be the most logical shape to assume. Maybe it is a parabola.

My educated guess would be some sort of conic section, depending on various factors. Of course, one possible conic section is indeed a parabola. I don't know enough about General Relativity to say whether this is true for light, although I'm almost certain that it's true (bar energy loss through gravitational radiation) for material objects.

You are still not getting it. 

Oh.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: lolz at trollz on August 21, 2008, 02:14:11 PM

Here's an equation:

y = x2 / 2r

And another:

(dx/dt)2 + (dy/dt)2 = c2

Ok, let's go with it. 

Now for an experiment to show if it's correct or not. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 21, 2008, 02:26:06 PM
Here's an equation:

y = x2 / 2r

And another:

(dx/dt)2 + (dy/dt)2 = c2

Ok, let's go with it. 

Now for an experiment to show if it's correct or not. 

I think the second one has been proven to be correct many times. Not so certain of the first.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 21, 2008, 02:43:36 PM
My educated guess would be some sort of conic section, depending on various factors. Of course, one possible conic section is indeed a parabola.

The more I think about it, the more a parabola makes sense, but it's by no means a dead cert.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 21, 2008, 02:52:51 PM
The more I think about it, the more a parabola makes sense, but it's by no means a dead cert.

That's pretty much my take on it too. A parabola seems to be the most likely shape, so I ran with that idea aware that it may not be entirely correct.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: jdoe on August 21, 2008, 04:33:50 PM
OK, let me give you guys my approach to the problem; it's long so be patient.

First, I assume a uniform gravitational field.  Uniform gravitational fields have the property that the force is directly proportional to the mass of an object by a constant a.  (This is a property of all fictitious forces.)

F=ma

We also have that

F=dp/dt=d(γmv)/dt=γ3mdv/dt.
(by the chain rule)

Mass cancels so we have the differential equation

a=γ3dv/dt.

Solving this differential equation for v with the initial condition of v(0)=0, we have

v(t)=at/√(1 + a2t2/c2).

With our uniform gravitational field, we are working in a non-inertial frame.  We want to work in an inertial frame because that's where light travels in straight lines.  So let's move to the frame where objects fall freely, that is, the frame that moves with speed v(t) with respect to our non-inertial rest frame.  To do this we need to perform a Lorentz transformation.

First we need to find the position of the non-inertial frame in our inertial frame as a function of time, x(t).  To find this we simply integrate -v(t) and obtain

x(t)= -c2/a (√(1 + a2t2/c2) - 1)

with the initial condition that x(0)=0.  We can now apply the Lorentz transform on the x coordinate.

x'=γ(x - x(t))

x is the position in the inertial frame, and x' is the position in our non-inertial rest frame.  In addition,

γ=1/√(1 - v(t)2/c2)=√(1+a2t2/c2),

so we have

x'=√(1 + a2t2/c2)(x + c2/a(√(1 + a2t2/c2) - 1))),

which simplifies to

x'=√(1 + a2t2/c2)(x - c2/a) + at2 + c2/a
.

Now consider a light beam which travels in a straight line from a height of h to the ground at some angle θ from the vertical.  Its x coordinate is given by

x=h - cos(θ)ct

and y coordinate is given by

y=sin(θ)ct.

We notice that the y component is perpendicular to the direction of motion so it is unaffected by Lorentz contraction and y=y'.  We solve this relationship for t,

t=y'/(sin(θ)c),

and plug in to the Lorentz transformation equation along with the previous equation for x.  We now have an equation for the path of light in terms of x' (the vertical height), y' (the horizontal distance), θ (the angle from which the light was emitted from the sun), h (the height of the sun) and a (the constant acceleration).

x'=√(1+a2y'2/(c4sin2(θ)))(h - y'/tan(θ) - c2/a) + ay'2/(c2sin2(θ)) + c2/a

In the more familiar xy coordinates where y is vertical and x is horizontal this is

y=√(1+a2x2/(c4sin2(θ)))(h - x/tan(θ) - c2/a) + ax2/(c2sin2(θ)) + c2/a
.

Clearly, this path is not parabolic, but is nearly so, as can be seen if one graphs it.  It only remains to choose the free parameters a, h, and θ to match observation.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 21, 2008, 04:45:56 PM
Very interesting approach. Thanks for that. I'll have a look at differentiating that function, that I may calculate acceleration as a function of velocity.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on August 21, 2008, 11:35:45 PM
OK, let me give you guys my approach to the problem; it's long so be patient...

and the answer is... four?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on August 21, 2008, 11:44:30 PM
Yup....that's what I got.  Definitely 4.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: jdoe on August 22, 2008, 09:23:06 AM
OK, let me give you guys my approach to the problem; it's long so be patient...

and the answer is... four?
Yup....that's what I got.  Definitely 4.

LOL.

But anyway, I don't like the idea of light being accelerated.  The only way the path of photons can be bent is through gravitation or interaction with a medium.  I've done the calculations for gravitation, and the field would have to be enormous.  We'd all be dead.

I have another idea that I think is more elegant.  I propose the existence of a quintessence permeating all space.  This quintessence has negative equation of state, P = wϵ, where w < -1/3.  (This is the same property of dark energy in RET)  This means that for any energy density of quintessence, there will be negative pressure.  This negative pressure is what makes dark energy so interesting.

Now I assume that there is a vertical gradient in the quintessence.  The energy density of the quintessence increases as one moves upwards.  By the equation above, there is also a pressure gradient.

Consider the earth trapped in this pressure gradient.  It feels a strong negative pressure pulling it upwards from the top.  On the bottom, the negative pressure is slightly less.  The difference between the two pressures gives rise to a buoyant force which pushes the earth upwards at 9.8m/s2.

Now, here is the interesting part.  The density of the quintessence increases with height, so presumably so does its index of refraction towards light, possibly in a nonlinear way.  The increase of refractive index with height is exactly what is needed to bend light to cause sunrises/sunsets, sinking ship effect, etc.   Keep in mind it was the negative pressure property of dark energy that made this possible.

Thoughts, criticisms?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: oldsoldier on August 22, 2008, 09:45:09 AM

Now, here is the interesting part.  The density of the quintessence increases with height, so presumably so does its index of refraction towards light, possibly in a nonlinear way.  The increase of refractive index with height is exactly what is needed to bend light to cause sunrises/sunsets, sinking ship effect, etc.   Keep in mind it was the negative pressure property of dark energy that made this possible.

Thoughts, criticisms?

jdoe... perhaps you can do this math... here's my issue with bendy light. It's a gut feeling and I'm kinda waiting on robosteve's equations, but in the mean time perhaps you can shed some light.

Consider the bendy light pictures shown here so far. All the rays appear to hit emanate from the sun at what I'm calling an "90 degree" angle. Furthermore all those curves have no inflection point. (This will be important.)

Now, consider what happens to a beam of light emanating from the sun at "89 degrees" or... lower angles if necessary.
Either all light that hits the earth from the sun comes from that "90 degree corridor" and consequently no light at even 89.9999 degrees hits the earth, or some light emanating at less than 90 degrees hits the earth.

I strongly believe that the models you and robosteve are kicking around imply that light emanating from the sun at something other than 90 degrees takes a path that does have an inflection point in it. And that just seems crazy to me. The only way that can happen is if the sun exerts its own component of EA and where the solar EA and the terrestrial EA are "equal" in strength is where this inflection point occurs.

And if you do the math there... explain the moon too as it will similarly need its own EA for similar reasons.

And if you do that... explain how we don't see any wobble in stellar positions when the moon occults them.

Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on August 23, 2008, 11:43:59 PM
Consider the bendy light pictures shown here so far. All the rays appear to hit emanate from the sun at what I'm calling an "90 degree" angle. Furthermore all those curves have no inflection point. (This will be important.)

Now, consider what happens to a beam of light emanating from the sun at "89 degrees" or... lower angles if necessary.
Either all light that hits the earth from the sun comes from that "90 degree corridor" and consequently no light at even 89.9999 degrees hits the earth, or some light emanating at less than 90 degrees hits the earth.

I strongly believe that the models you and robosteve are kicking around imply that light emanating from the sun at something other than 90 degrees takes a path that does have an inflection point in it. And that just seems crazy to me. The only way that can happen is if the sun exerts its own component of EA and where the solar EA and the terrestrial EA are "equal" in strength is where this inflection point occurs.

This is where the "spotlight" model of the Sun comes in.  They need the Sun to only shine light straight at the ground in order for this model to be viable.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Penispoop agogo on August 23, 2008, 11:53:44 PM
So, there currently is no math to explain it, therefore you make it up because it doesn't actually exist/happen right?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on August 24, 2008, 12:38:40 AM
So, there currently is no math to explain it, therefore you make it up because it doesn't actually exist/happen right?

No, they have math to explain it, but no physics or other mechanism.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: trig on August 24, 2008, 07:02:01 AM

Now, here is the interesting part.  The density of the quintessence increases with height, so presumably so does its index of refraction towards light, possibly in a nonlinear way.  The increase of refractive index with height is exactly what is needed to bend light to cause sunrises/sunsets, sinking ship effect, etc.   Keep in mind it was the negative pressure property of dark energy that made this possible.

The more intriguing properties of the quintessence (or whatever) are:
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 24, 2008, 03:14:34 PM
^ Can we get this guy (Candleja) banned please?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: General Douchebag on August 24, 2008, 03:19:14 PM
And you. It's an IP ban, all of your alts will die.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Daniel on August 24, 2008, 04:57:27 PM
^ Can we get this guy (Candleja) banned please?

Done.  All of his posts are gone too.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: General Douchebag on August 24, 2008, 04:57:48 PM
Yay!
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on August 25, 2008, 04:56:26 AM
Does bendy light affect all things EM?

Magnetic fields?
X-rays?
Gamma rays?

What about particles?

Neutron radiation?
Electrons?

What about particle colliders? These things are built flat right? With the LHC does that mean we can't see the end because the light has curved up? By end I mean before it curves around. Apparently it is supposed to appear straight
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 25, 2008, 05:03:00 AM
Does bendy light affect all things EM?

Only electromagnetic radiation.

Magnetic fields?

Only in the special case where they form half of a photon, along with an electric field.

X-rays?

Yes.

Gamma rays?

Yes.

What about particles?

Only photons.

Neutron radiation?

No.

Electrons?

No.

What about particle colliders? These things are built flat right? With the LHC does that mean we can't see the end because the light has curved up? By end I mean before it curves around. Apparently it is supposed to appear straight

These don't exist. They are part of the conspiracy. Imagine how much money people could make from funding intended to build a particle accelerator!
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Sir_Drainsalot on August 25, 2008, 05:15:52 AM
These don't exist. They are part of the conspiracy. Imagine how much money people could make from funding intended to build a particle accelerator!

So you mean everyone has been worrying about the LHC creating a black hole and destroying the universe for nothing? Damn conspiracy.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 25, 2008, 05:18:16 AM


These don't exist. They are part of the conspiracy. Imagine how much money people could make from funding intended to build a particle accelerator!

I could comment on the rest of your shit but I will just comment on this.  

You have no idea what you are talking about.  There is A guy I have know for a while, his sister is over in France right now working on The Large Hadron Collider.  It is real so stop making shit up.  
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 25, 2008, 05:28:40 AM
You have no idea what you are talking about.  There is A guy I have know for a while, his sister is over in France right now working on The Large Hadron Collider.  It is real so stop making shit up.

So a guy you have know [sic] for a while having a sister who is working on something lends it credibility, does it? How about you show me some primary evidence for its existence instead?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 25, 2008, 08:34:25 AM
What about particle colliders? These things are built flat right? With the LHC does that mean we can't see the end because the light has curved up? By end I mean before it curves around. Apparently it is supposed to appear straight

These don't exist. They are part of the conspiracy. Imagine how much money people could make from funding intended to build a particle accelerator!

Hold that thought until the LHC is producing 1.8 GB/s, then tell me the government can produce this much hard scientific data that will stand up to rigorous scientific scrutiny.

Also, the 8000 scientists from all nations working at CERN must be part of the conspiracy. When people (like journalists) are given tours of the LHC, what are they being shown?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: markjo on August 25, 2008, 10:01:20 AM
You have no idea what you are talking about.  There is A guy I have know for a while, his sister is over in France right now working on The Large Hadron Collider.  It is real so stop making shit up.

So a guy you have know [sic] for a while having a sister who is working on something lends it credibility, does it? How about you show me some primary evidence for its existence instead?

I have some pictures of the particle accelerator at Cornell University that I personally took.  If I were to post them, would that be credible evidence that particle accelerators exist?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 25, 2008, 01:13:05 PM
I have some pictures of the particle accelerator at Cornell University that I personally took.  If I were to post them, would that be credible evidence that particle accelerators exist?

TB reply: Did you personally log the RGB values from each pixel of the CCD yourself?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on August 25, 2008, 05:16:35 PM
Whoah....RS, that was an unexpected response.

Playing the conspiracy card is beneath you. You are more imaginative that that.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 25, 2008, 05:19:35 PM
Quote
What about particle colliders? These things are built flat right? With the LHC does that mean we can't see the end because the light has curved up? By end I mean before it curves around. Apparently it is supposed to appear straight

What makes you think that they're build flat? Particle Accelerators are several miles long and allegedly bend along the curvature of the earth.

So yes, a photon emitted from one end would arrive at a higher altitude at the other end in both RE and FE + EA.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 26, 2008, 03:03:06 AM
Quote
What about particle colliders? These things are built flat right? With the LHC does that mean we can't see the end because the light has curved up? By end I mean before it curves around. Apparently it is supposed to appear straight

What makes you think that they're build flat? Particle Accelerators are several miles long and allegedly bend along the curvature of the earth.

So yes, a photon emitted from one end would arrive at a higher altitude at the other end in both RE and FE + EA. The physicists just compensate by placing the detector where the particles arrive.

You don't really seem to understand how particle accelerators work.

They're circular, the particles travel in a beam and travel around the accelerator several hundred or thousand times before emerging. This wouldn't be possible if light were constantly accelerating upwards. You can't claim they're part of the conspiracy either -- most universities (including mine) have a cyclotron.

On the basis of circular particle accelerators, I think we can declare EAT dead.

EDIT: CHanged synchrotron to cyclotron.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 26, 2008, 03:15:42 AM
Quote
They're circular, the particles travel in a beam and travel around the accelerator several hundred or thousand times before emerging. This wouldn't be possible if light were constantly accelerating upwards.

Those particles are traveling through something similar to fiber optic cables, where if the beam or particle deviates from its course, it just bounces back into its correct path.

Those particles aren't exactly traveling in a free open environment to the detector.

Quote
On the basis of circular particle accelerators, I think we can declare EAT dead.

Obviously the particles are bouncing against the sides of something to follow the layout of the particle accelerator. Did you think that particles naturally traveled in big circles?

There goes your argument.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 26, 2008, 03:25:56 AM
I have some pictures of the particle accelerator at Cornell University that I personally took.  If I were to post them, would that be credible evidence that particle accelerators exist?

Oh, there are structures that are supposed to resemble particle accelerators. They're duds; they don't perform any functions whatsoever. So no, pictures will not prove anything.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on August 26, 2008, 03:40:44 AM
Oh, there are structures that are supposed to resemble particle accelerators. They're duds; they don't perform any functions whatsoever. So no, pictures will not prove anything.

Must be another part of the conspiracy.  Nefarious universities building fake accelerators to get government funding.  Of course, it makes you wonder why the international community, which "knows" about the conspiracy ever approved funding for the super-collider in Switzerland.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 26, 2008, 03:55:45 AM
Of course, it makes you wonder why the international community, which "knows" about the conspiracy ever approved funding for the super-collider in Switzerland.

To make the conspiracy seem more plausible.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: markjo on August 26, 2008, 06:32:13 AM
I have some pictures of the particle accelerator at Cornell University that I personally took.  If I were to post them, would that be credible evidence that particle accelerators exist?

Oh, there are structures that are supposed to resemble particle accelerators. They're duds; they don't perform any functions whatsoever. So no, pictures will not prove anything.

But Tom seems to think that particle accelerators exist.  And you say RE'ers can't keep their stories straight.   ::)
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 26, 2008, 07:53:56 AM
Lol@Tom's understanding of physics.

Quote
They're circular, the particles travel in a beam and travel around the accelerator several hundred or thousand times before emerging. This wouldn't be possible if light were constantly accelerating upwards.

Those particles are traveling through something similar to fiber optic cables, where if the beam or particle deviates from its course, it just bounces back into its correct path.

Those particles aren't exactly traveling in a free open environment to the detector.

What kind of cable could contain a beam of high energy particles? This is madness!

The reason particles travel in circular paths is because they are being directed by powerful magnetic fields. Ever noticed particle accelerators only accelerate ions?
The LHC uses 96 tonnes of liquid helium to keep the supeconducting magnets cool.

Quote
On the basis of circular particle accelerators, I think we can declare EAT dead.

Obviously the particles are bouncing against the sides of something to follow the layout of the particle accelerator. Did you think that particles naturally traveled in big circles?

Particles do not "bounce" when they're travelling at significant fractions of the speed of light. As I've said, they're path is circular because of magnets.

There goes my argument.

fix'd
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Alienfreak on August 26, 2008, 08:58:14 AM
Quote
So a guy you have know [sic] for a while having a sister who is working on something lends it credibility, does it? How about you show me some primary evidence for its existence instead?

(http://www.physik.tu-muenchen.de/einrichtungen/department/luftbild03.jpg)

I happen to be there at the TUM. It looks quite real to me ;)


P.S. did i mention i have just been granted a new BMW 535d for saying that!? Yay me :D
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 26, 2008, 09:16:33 AM
Quote
What kind of cable could contain a beam of high energy particles? This is madness!

The reason particles travel in circular paths is because they are being directed by powerful magnetic fields. Ever noticed particle accelerators only accelerate ions?

Well there's your answer. The particles in a particle accelerator don't travel upwards and escape the facility by EA because they're being constantly pulled to follow the layout of the facility by strong magnetic fields all around them.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Moon squirter on August 26, 2008, 09:30:18 AM
Quote
What kind of cable could contain a beam of high energy particles? This is madness!

The reason particles travel in circular paths is because they are being directed by powerful magnetic fields. Ever noticed particle accelerators only accelerate ions?

Well there's your answer. The particles in a particle accelerator don't travel upwards and escape the facility by EA because they're being constantly pulled to follow the layout of the facility by strong magnetic fields all around them.

Sorry if this as been said before but...

Tom, isn't this whole upward bendy effect completely incompatible with you own observations?   You have said that you can see children playing on a beach 30 miles away.

Surely your observations falsify this bendy hypotheses?  Or are your own observations now in doubt?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Tom Bishop on August 26, 2008, 09:59:23 AM
Quote
Tom, isn't this whole upward bendy effect completely incompatible with you own observations?   You have said that you can see children playing on a beach 30 miles away.

Surely your observations falsify this bendy hypotheses?  Or are your own observations now in doubt?

If EA is correct, then it just makes such observations of being able to see past the curvature of the earth nothing more than a curiosity.

Perhaps refraction did it, as I'm so very often told.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: markjo on August 26, 2008, 11:07:12 AM
Quote
Tom, isn't this whole upward bendy effect completely incompatible with you own observations?   You have said that you can see children playing on a beach 30 miles away.

Surely your observations falsify this bendy hypotheses?  Or are your own observations now in doubt?

If EA is correct, then it just makes such observations of being able to see past the curvature of the earth nothing more than a curiosity.

Perhaps refraction did it, as I'm so very often told.

In other words, you don't know and don't care what did it.  You'll just go with whatever FE nonsense is first on your cut and paste list.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Hammod on August 26, 2008, 11:12:39 AM
Quote from: markjo
In other words, you don't know and don't care what did it.  You'll just go with whatever FE nonsense is first on your cut and paste list.

I concur, of all the nonsense I read on here, Toms is legendary in it's sheer buffoonary!
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Moon squirter on August 26, 2008, 12:17:59 PM
Quote
Tom, isn't this whole upward bendy effect completely incompatible with you own observations?   You have said that you can see children playing on a beach 30 miles away.

Surely your observations falsify this bendy hypotheses?  Or are your own observations now in doubt?

If EA is correct, then it just makes such observations of being able to see past the curvature of the earth nothing more than a curiosity.

Perhaps refraction did it, as I'm so very often told.

The fact is (and not wishing to sound too dramatic) that FET is now a theory in crisis.

FE followers are now admitting (via the bendy hypotheses) that the world does indeed "look" round, even if it does not.  This is a complete departure from the traditional line (a la Rowothem) that the earth is found to be flat through simple observation.


Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: General Douchebag on August 26, 2008, 12:45:23 PM
No crisis, just change.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Hammod on August 26, 2008, 12:48:42 PM
No crisis, just change.

The next change will be that flat is actually a synonym for round, and therefore flat earth theory, is in fact claiming that the earth is round.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: General Douchebag on August 26, 2008, 12:59:22 PM
That would require a somewhat significant change, so no.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: ghazwozza on August 26, 2008, 02:58:14 PM
Quote
What kind of cable could contain a beam of high energy particles? This is madness!

The reason particles travel in circular paths is because they are being directed by powerful magnetic fields. Ever noticed particle accelerators only accelerate ions?

Well there's your answer. The particles in a particle accelerator don't travel upwards and escape the facility by EA because they're being constantly pulled to follow the layout of the facility by strong magnetic fields all around them.

Shoot, just realised my argument is worthless. EA doesn't affect particles! That was silly of me.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on August 26, 2008, 07:23:47 PM
Yeah realised it also.


So Robosteve... if EA doesn't affect PA......why are they fake?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 26, 2008, 08:12:07 PM
Quote
So a guy you have know [sic] for a while having a sister who is working on something lends it credibility, does it? How about you show me some primary evidence for its existence instead?

(http://www.physik.tu-muenchen.de/einrichtungen/department/luftbild03.jpg)

I happen to be there at the TUM. It looks quite real to me ;)


P.S. did i mention i have just been granted a new BMW 535d for saying that!? Yay me :D

How can you prove that what is shown in that picture performs any sort of function whatsoever?

So Robosteve... if EA doesn't affect PA......why are they fake?

For people to make money.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on August 27, 2008, 01:29:01 AM
But you are saying they are part of a conspiracy to make money separate from the FE conspiracy?

How many of these are there?

What about the AIDS virus? Is that a conspiracy to generate funding? I'm just interested in why you believe a conspiracy is the most likely reason for something to exist.

If they wanted money then a casino would be an easier way to do it. Open enough of them. You don't even have to fight for funding.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on August 27, 2008, 01:34:02 AM
If they wanted money then a casino would be an easier way to do it. Open enough of them. You don't even have to fight for funding.

Isn't that a lottery?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Josef on August 27, 2008, 05:25:15 AM
A conspiracy only exists if you believe in it. Stop believe in the conspiracy and it will go away.

ps. FE is a conspiracy too. Motive? To make money. How? Generating traffic, pr, exposure and getting followers.. What sick cult are you planning to build FE'ers?!
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: General Douchebag on August 27, 2008, 06:52:39 AM
How do any of us make money? There are no ads or donations or anything, and hosting costs mean poor Daniel has to pay hundreds of quid for you to spam with this shit.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on August 27, 2008, 06:57:46 AM
How do any of us make money? There are no ads or donations or anything, and hosting costs mean poor Daniel has to pay hundreds of quid for you to spam with this shit.

But that has to be the motive.  Isn't money always the motive behind things?  What else could explain it?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Alienfreak on August 27, 2008, 07:53:19 AM
Quote
How can you prove that what is shown in that picture performs any sort of function whatsoever?

I and my brother have experiments there... as well as in the FRM II :)
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 27, 2008, 07:11:00 PM
You have no idea what you are talking about.  There is A guy I have know for a while, his sister is over in France right now working on The Large Hadron Collider.  It is real so stop making shit up.

So a guy you have know [sic] for a while having a sister who is working on something lends it credibility, does it? How about you show me some primary evidence for its existence instead?

Give it up. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 28, 2008, 01:05:25 AM
You have no idea what you are talking about.  There is A guy I have know for a while, his sister is over in France right now working on The Large Hadron Collider.  It is real so stop making shit up.

So a guy you have know [sic] for a while having a sister who is working on something lends it credibility, does it? How about you show me some primary evidence for its existence instead?

I have no primary evidence for its existence.

That's all you needed to say.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Alienfreak on August 28, 2008, 07:39:32 AM
And let me guess... I'm a goverment agent? ^^
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 28, 2008, 08:11:21 AM
You have no idea what you are talking about.  There is A guy I have know for a while, his sister is over in France right now working on The Large Hadron Collider.  It is real so stop making shit up.

So a guy you have know [sic] for a while having a sister who is working on something lends it credibility, does it? How about you show me some primary evidence for its existence instead?

I have no primary evidence for its existence.

That's all you needed to say.

I can link to unpublished photos or I can say I am in direct contact with a conspirator. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 28, 2008, 08:13:40 AM
I can link to unpublished photos or I can say I am in direct contact with a conspirator. 

I don't think you understand what is meant by "primary evidence".
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 28, 2008, 08:15:01 AM
I can link to unpublished photos or I can say I am in direct contact with a conspirator. 

I don't think you understand what is meant by "primary evidence".
Like I said, I am not in direct contact with a conspirator as she would of told her brother.

Also where is your evidence that particle colliders don't work? 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 28, 2008, 08:21:26 AM
Like I said, I am not in direct contact with a conspirator as she would of told her brother.

I don't think you understand what is meant by "primary evidence".


Also where is your evidence that particle colliders don't work? 

I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims here. I have yet to see a shred of direct evidence that they do work.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 28, 2008, 08:24:04 AM

I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims here. I have yet to see a shred of direct evidence that they do work.

So the world has to revolve around you?  It's not their job to make sure you do research.  Everyone already knows you can't.  All the information you need to know they exist is out there.  Go find it or stop making false claims. 
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 28, 2008, 08:44:23 AM
So the world has to revolve around you?  It's not their job to make sure you do research.  Everyone already knows you can't.  All the information you need to know they exist is out there.  Go find it or stop making false claims. 

So you're all out of evidence? Good, then I can stop wasting my time here.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: sokarul on August 28, 2008, 08:46:57 AM

So you're all out of evidence? Good, then I can stop wasting my time here.

Quote
All the information you need to know they exist is out there.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Alienfreak on August 28, 2008, 09:14:51 AM
Quote
I'm not the one making unsubstantiated claims here. I have yet to see a shred of direct evidence that they do work.

Just saying they dont work is just as well a baseless claim as saying they do. Except for the fact all data accessible implies that in fact they DO work.


If you dont believe they work just talk to a laboratory which has one that you CRAVE to stand right in the ray of particles.
And then you will have your proof by enjoying your own little demise :)
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 28, 2008, 09:16:40 AM
If you dont believe they work just talk to a laboratory which has one that you CRAVE to stand right in the ray of particles.
And then you will have your proof by enjoying your own little demise :)

Or they will just shoot me and nobody would know the difference.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Alienfreak on August 29, 2008, 04:45:44 AM
Quote
I was born in South Africa, now shut the fuck up.


I work at one. So please move this topic to complete bullshit :)



And shooting somebody and standing in the ray of a particle accelerator is quite a differene even at the eyes of a non professional forensic guy ;)
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 29, 2008, 04:50:06 AM
And shooting somebody and standing in the ray of a particle accelerator is quite a differene even at the eyes of a non professional forensic guy ;)

And if they pay him three times his usual rate to keep quiet, do you really think the information will leak?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on August 29, 2008, 04:53:34 AM
And if they pay him three times his usual rate to keep quiet, do you really think the information will leak?

And really hope that you never piss the guy off.  And there is also the question of what happens around retirement time, do you keep paying the guy huge sums in addition to now having to "bribe" his replacement?  Not to mention having to pay people to generate all of that "fake" data that is being analyzed by numerous independent groups.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on August 29, 2008, 05:10:36 AM
And really hope that you never piss the guy off.  And there is also the question of what happens around retirement time, do you keep paying the guy huge sums in addition to now having to "bribe" his replacement?

No, he just becomes his replacement's first job.

Not to mention having to pay people to generate all of that "fake" data that is being analyzed by numerous independent groups.

Computers don't demand very large salaries these days, I hear.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on August 29, 2008, 05:19:44 AM
What about cyclotrons and linear accelerators?

A hell of a lot of universities have these. Linear accelerators are used for nuclear medicine. Are people receiving cancer treatment in on the conspiracy as well? What about the doctors treating them? The university students studying physics?

Where does it end?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: lolz at trollz on August 29, 2008, 07:47:01 AM
And really hope that you never piss the guy off.  And there is also the question of what happens around retirement time, do you keep paying the guy huge sums in addition to now having to "bribe" his replacement?

No, he just becomes his replacement's first job.

Why yes, that's why we always see those stories of theoretical physicists disappearing all the time. 
Title: Earth doesnt look flat?
Post by: Josef on August 31, 2008, 03:11:27 PM
So how is the bent light theory (BLT hehe) going? How many FE-followers?

I just wanted to remind everyone that if you do believe in BLT, then you also admit that earth looks like a sphere. So if you support BLT, which I think is a great theory btw, be careful with your basic arguments like "earth looks flat, therefore its probably flat".
Title: Re: Earth doesnt look flat?
Post by: Parsifal on August 31, 2008, 09:32:02 PM
So how is the bent light theory (BLT hehe) going? How many FE-followers?

I just wanted to remind everyone that if you do believe in BLT, then you also admit that earth looks like a sphere. So if you support BLT, which I think is a great theory btw, be careful with your basic arguments like "earth looks flat, therefore its probably flat".

Please don't make any more threads about this. I merged your post into this thread, as there is no point having many threads about the same topic, particularly when your post didn't bring anything new to the discussion.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on August 31, 2008, 11:09:20 PM
What is the fundamental property of the UA that accelerates the FE matter, penetrates and then affects light without affecting other matter?

How does one establish what is perfectly flat in this world of bendy light? How can you attempt to measure something on a level plane when there is no agreement on how to determine if the plane is flat?

With bendy light a slightly upwardly curved tunnel would appear dead straight.

I was wondering about a particle beam vs laser test to establish a flat line.

Has anyone come back to answer the Michelson-Morley inferometer yet?

Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on September 01, 2008, 02:17:30 AM
What is the fundamental property of the UA that accelerates the FE matter, penetrates and then affects light without affecting other matter?

This is not known.

How does one establish what is perfectly flat in this world of bendy light? How can you attempt to measure something on a level plane when there is no agreement on how to determine if the plane is flat?

The surface of a large body of water is flat in FET.

With bendy light a slightly upwardly curved tunnel would appear dead straight.

Correct.

I was wondering about a particle beam vs laser test to establish a flat line.

A particle beam would measure a geodesic in spacetime, not in space.

Has anyone come back to answer the Michelson-Morley inferometer yet?

No.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on September 01, 2008, 03:26:06 AM
There should be some reservoirs long enough for this purpose. Since they are normally situated in valleys they should offer a measure of protection from wind.

Although anything involving lasers has inherent problems when using open space. Scattering will be problematic. I'm not sure how much divergence a beam would suffer over a kilometer or two of atmosphere.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on September 01, 2008, 03:27:41 AM
There should be some reservoirs long enough for this purpose. Since they are normally situated in valleys they should offer a measure of protection from wind.

They are only flat in FET, though. If the Earth is round, they will not be flat.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Josef on September 01, 2008, 06:10:58 AM
A particle beam would measure a geodesic in spacetime, not in space.

Interresting. How would the laser meassure?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on September 01, 2008, 08:29:45 AM
Interresting. How would the laser meassure?

In RET, they would measure a geodesic in spacetime. In FET with the EA, they would trace out a parabolic path in space. I am not certain what geometric shape this would correspond to in spacetime.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Algol on September 01, 2008, 10:04:16 AM
Quote
Tom, isn't this whole upward bendy effect completely incompatible with you own observations?   You have said that you can see children playing on a beach 30 miles away.

Surely your observations falsify this bendy hypotheses?  Or are your own observations now in doubt?

If EA is correct, then it just makes such observations of being able to see past the curvature of the earth nothing more than a curiosity.

Perhaps refraction did it, as I'm so very often told.

perhaps ??? or perhaps it was the pixies and the little elves showing you a magical world over the horizon that only you can see? ::)
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Josef on September 01, 2008, 10:30:03 AM
Interresting. How would the laser meassure?

In RET, they would measure a geodesic in spacetime. In FET with the EA, they would trace out a parabolic path in space. I am not certain what geometric shape this would correspond to in spacetime.

EA? Earth Accelerator?
Speaking of which, does this affect time as well?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on September 01, 2008, 05:19:54 PM
So are you effectively saying there is no way to observe if something is flat?

Everything should appear curved.

Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on September 01, 2008, 10:56:19 PM
Anyway, getting off topic.

How long before we see some refined bendy light theories from the FEs.

Quantifiable predictions. When can we see some?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 02, 2008, 04:44:46 AM
Anyway, getting off topic.

How long before we see some refined bendy light theories from the FEs.

Quantifiable predictions. When can we see some?

Maybe some experimental data that verifies the theory that can be tested?
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on September 02, 2008, 09:10:30 PM
Well with the images i took in the sinking ship experiment

The distance was 20.0km from a height of 1m.

The lighthouse has an elevation of 80.5m and is 38.7m tall.
http://www.lighthouse.net.au/lights/WA/Rottnest%20Main/Rottnest%20Main.htm (http://www.lighthouse.net.au/lights/WA/Rottnest%20Main/Rottnest%20Main.htm)

There is something like 40m hidden behind the curve of the Earth.
Or the light has bent 40m over 20km.

Thats 2m per kilometer.

Cmon FEs. Put something together. It's been weeks.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Parsifal on September 02, 2008, 11:42:57 PM
Well with the images i took in the sinking ship experiment

The distance was 20.0km from a height of 1m.

The lighthouse has an elevation of 80.5m and is 38.7m tall.
http://www.lighthouse.net.au/lights/WA/Rottnest%20Main/Rottnest%20Main.htm (http://www.lighthouse.net.au/lights/WA/Rottnest%20Main/Rottnest%20Main.htm)

There is something like 40m hidden behind the curve of the Earth.
Or the light has bent 40m over 20km.

Thats 2m per kilometer.

Cmon FEs. Put something together. It's been weeks.

Converting units from my earlier calculation of the curve in inches per mile per mile, the light should have bent by about 15.7 metres over a distance of 20 kilometres.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: dyno on September 11, 2008, 07:36:12 PM
Resurrection

http://bovitz.com/photo/traditional/jpgphotos/2005/Rays-of-light-through-cloud.jpg

What about sunbeams like these? There should be noticeable curvature of the light beams.

FE explanation please.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: AmateurAstronomer on September 11, 2008, 09:10:35 PM
Resurrection

http://bovitz.com/photo/traditional/jpgphotos/2005/Rays-of-light-through-cloud.jpg

What about sunbeams like these? There should be noticeable curvature of the light beams.

FE explanation please.

That's an awesome pic. That's going on my desktop, curve or not...

Is that DRM, do you know? It looks it. I don't think you can pull off DRM with waves though, and the waves are very prominent. Most likely a wide aperture shot.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: AmateurAstronomer on September 11, 2008, 09:27:07 PM
Well with the images i took in the sinking ship experiment

The distance was 20.0km from a height of 1m.

The lighthouse has an elevation of 80.5m and is 38.7m tall.
http://www.lighthouse.net.au/lights/WA/Rottnest%20Main/Rottnest%20Main.htm (http://www.lighthouse.net.au/lights/WA/Rottnest%20Main/Rottnest%20Main.htm)

There is something like 40m hidden behind the curve of the Earth.
Or the light has bent 40m over 20km.

Thats 2m per kilometer.

Cmon FEs. Put something together. It's been weeks.

Converting units from my earlier calculation of the curve in inches per mile per mile, the light should have bent by about 15.7 metres over a distance of 20 kilometres.

Can you post your light bending formula, and any proofs of said formula that you have already performed? I want to try to reproduce your results.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 12, 2008, 04:37:49 AM
Resurrection

http://bovitz.com/photo/traditional/jpgphotos/2005/Rays-of-light-through-cloud.jpg

What about sunbeams like these? There should be noticeable curvature of the light beams.

FE explanation please.

To head off possible Tom Bishop explanations...

No it isn't glare in the camera lens.  Here is a picture that I took showing the same effect.

(http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/4479/godsfingersza7.jpg)

It is definitely something that you can see without holding a camera to your eye.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Stabler12 on September 12, 2008, 04:53:23 AM
You can see that on the West coast...as well as in places like...oh...everywhere.  But that's a very nice picture.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Moon squirter on September 12, 2008, 05:04:32 AM
To head off possible Tom Bishop explanations...

No it isn't glare in the camera lens.  Here is a picture that I took showing the same effect.

    http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/4479/godsfingersza7.jpg

It is definitely something that you can see without holding a camera to your eye.

It's not because the earth is flat.  It's because of perspective    (not Robothiem perspective I might add(!)).

Firstly bare in mind that the "rays" are not the original photons moving towards the ground, but light which has been scattered by particles in the atmosphere on its way to the ground.

The observed rays of light *are* in fact running ~parallel, as you might expect from the distant sun.  Except the rays are travelling partly in our direction.  Therefore perspective makes the rays converge to the sun.   Light rays will always appear to come radially from the sun, no matter how far away it is.  (i.e. it is observer dependent).

To think of it another way. If you were to go to a point near to horizon (say 20 miles out), the sun would still be in the same position in the sky, and not overhead as the image would suggest.  Also, you would see a new set of rays (and not the old ones behind you).

I have seen speeded up films of this effect:  Video makes it more obvious that the rays are coming towards us  (cannot find any examples at the moment).

This has been used to great effect by artists over the centuries.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: WardoggKC130FE on September 12, 2008, 09:39:39 PM
Take two flashlights at night and cross them. You know that the light beams pass right through each other, right? As we all know, this is because Maxwell's equations (the equations of light) are linear. Light cannot interact with light -- usually.

But it can under the right circumstances.

Now take a single laser and split it into two coherent beams of photons. If these laser beams cross inside a type of a nonlindar crystal, they mutually influence each others propagation. In some cases, one beam will donate its photons to the other beam. This results in nonreciprocal energy transfer between the beams, and constitutes one of the few instances of optical amplification without stimulated emission.

The control of light by light is the optical analog of the control of electgrons by electrons in transistors. One of the great challenges facing quantum optics today is the search for the appropriate medium in which photons can control photons. The discovery of such a medium would open to way for photonic computers.

The electronic revolution of the 1960's is now giving way to the photonics revolution. Almost all high-data-rate systems in use today use photons to carry information. Even microprocessors in your personal computers are on the verge of using photonics to bus information and to provide masssively parallel interconnections. Hybrid electronic/photonic microprocessors are only about 5 years away from the marketplace.

Still, there are (almost) no good optical analogs of the transistor. All the current photonics technology uses electronics to generate and detect photons, without letting the photons control themselves. But with the appropriate nonlinear optical material, this may just be a step away.

An electronic computer can be divided into two roles, that of memory, which needs to hold information for as long as possible, and that of processing, which needs to use information as fast as possible. Static holograms perform the role of memory in the optical analogy to the electronic computer, while dynamic holograms perform the role of the central processor.

Holographic optical memories are a technology that have been pursued for several decades. On the other hand, dynamic holographic processors -- that have speeds compatible with image processing applications -- have only come about in the past ten years through the discovery of photorefractive semiconductor materials. Semiconductors, like GaAs, can act as dynamic holographic media. They have high carrier mobilities, that make the refresh rate of the holograms fast enough for video applications.

Photorefractive quantum wells represent the culmination of developments in photorefractive semiconductors. They have all the advantages of high mobility and speed for dynamic hologram recording, while relying on quantum-confined enhancements of optical properties to produce the highest-sensitivity dynamic holographic films currently known. While photorefractive quantum wells cannot yet be used as optical analogs to the transistor, they provide new avenues for the control of light by light in wide areas of new applications.

 

 

The photorefractive effect is an effective optical nonlinearity in which the coherent interference of the two beams produces a pattern of bright and dark fringes. These fringes cause electrical charge to separate inside the photorefractive crystal, producing space-charge field patterns that mimic the light patterns. The electric fields, in turn, modify the refractive index of the material, creating a diffraction grating. This light-induced diffraction grating diffracts light from the two laser beams, redirecting the photons in the direction of the other beam. When the phase relationship is just right between the transmitted and diffracted beams, then net constructive interference will occur in one transmitted beam, but destructive interference will occur in the opposite beam. The optical amplification is therefore a simple consequence of diffraction and interference -- two aspects of classical optics -- but in a unique combination.

The photorefractive effect is a type of dynamic holography. Holograms that move and change in time in response to changing light images are called dynamic holograms. They are recorded in real-time just as an ordinary hologram is, using two laser beams. One laser beam carries the information from the object, while the other laser beam acts as a reference. The use of two light beams rather than one (in rodinary photography) that makes it possible for a hologram to record phase as well as intensity.

Dynamic holograms are constantly changing, or updating, as the information on the signal beam changes. This means that dynamic holographic films perform an information processing function.
Title: Re: Bendy light: The maths
Post by: Rig Navigator on September 14, 2008, 06:26:54 PM
This is one of the reasons I like this site.  I learn new things every day.