The Flat Earth Society
Other Discussion Boards => Technology, Science & Alt Science => Topic started by: joffenz on March 16, 2006, 08:58:46 AM
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In my opinion, no. Well, it does in some area but I don't find it acceptable to condemn abortion because of it.
There are many examples, too many to go through so if anyone is against abortion biblically then post your evidence here and I'll tell you why I don't agree with it (or possibly you'll change my mind)
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Hmmm... I can't think of any bit of the Bible specifically condoning abortion. What verses are you think of?
However, I can think of two episodes of near-filicide:
1) Abraham's being asked to, and being willing to, sacrifice his son Isaac.
2) Lot's readiness to toss his daughters to the Sodomite wolves.
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I don't really Like the bible personally, to many storys that are meant to be lessons, but people take them too seriously. Like there was ever a giant that david fought off...no.... But I believe abortions should be legal. Stem cell research could very vell help out people more then a crack baby.
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Like there was ever a giant that david fought off
Seems like a "late trimester abortion", wouldn't you say? Like, 70th trimester? Plus: abortion by sling shot? Such barbaric medicine in those days....
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But I believe abortions should be legal. Stem cell research could very vell help out people more then a crack baby.
By "crack baby" I suppose you are referring to humans of lesser intelligence or mental handicaps? Or by "crack baby" could it be a baby that ends up being normal as it grows up but just born of that type of parents? I'll assume the first, but if the latter please explain. I'm not sure if I agree with either though.
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But then again what if ?
You're mother was a victim of rape, out of which you were born ? The bible absolutely does not tell anything about these matters. My suggestion, take a lot of stories as a lesson, its a very very old book many processes have aged and are not applicable to modern times.
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The Bible is fairly clear on the subject of killing people (Thou shalt not kill) the contreversy around abortion really relies on where life begins. The Catholic Church for example says life begins at conception (I'm not sure the theology behind this but that reflects on my ignorance not Church doctrine) and thus views abortion as the killing of babies. Which is wrong because of a)it's killing (see above)
b)babys (while in the womb) are helpless and thus deserving of the protection of the strong.
This isn't to say that the fanatics who blow up abortion cclinics are right , since murdering to stop murder is hypocritical and self righteous.
However as a Catholic I believe abortion is murder and that murder is bad thus abortion is bad
An enraged
CInlef
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The Catholic Church for example says life begins at conception (I'm not sure the theology behind this but that reflects on my ignorance not Church doctrine) and thus views abortion as the killing of babies. Which is wrong because of a)it's killing (see above)
b)babys (while in the womb) are helpless and thus deserving of the protection of the strong.
a) If you read Exodus 21:22-25, you will see that if a man hits a pregnant woman and kills the baby, without causing serious harm to the mother, he is not considered a murderer. That would suggest that 'killing' an unborn baby is actually not murder.
b) Is that a biblical view?
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The Bible is fairly clear on the subject of killing people (Thou shalt not kill)
Funny how it's "Thou shalt not kill", and not, "Thou shalt not kill people." A prohibition against eating anything but seeds, nuts, and beans, perhaps?
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The Bible is fairly clear on the subject of killing people (Thou shalt not kill)
Funny how it's "Thou shalt not kill", and not, "Thou shalt not kill people." A prohibition against eating anything but seeds, nuts, and beans, perhaps?
Indeed, although as I pointed out God doesn't consider a fetus a fully grown human, so "Thou shalt not kill" does not apply.
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First off to Erasmus its sometimes translated as thou shalt not commit murder so I'm assuming that in Hebrew it's clearer that it refers to people. As to
cheesejoff Exodus quote it doesn actually say Exodus 21:22 "When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant women so that she suffers a miscarriage but no further injury the guilty one shall be fined as much as the women's husband demands of him and he shall pay in the presence of the judges"
This is situation is different than abortion as the man is not nessecarily intending to kill the baby (as opposed to an abortion where thats really the whole point) also he suffes as much of a fine as the husband demands which is basically unlimited potential punishment.
This is an example of something fairly close to abortion (but not strictly speaking the same) and it is definitly condemeing it, althought granted not equating it with murder. So the BIble is clearly not condoning it.
Anyway this isn't strctly the same as abortion if one consiedered abortion murdr 1 this would be like murder 2 or manslaughter 1
Any thoughts?
An argumentatvie
Cinlef
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I realise now that I meant condemn instead of condone, apologies. :roll:
cheesejoff Exodus quote it doesn actually say Exodus 21:22 "When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant women so that she suffers a miscarriage but no further injury the guilty one shall be fined as much as the women's husband demands of him and he shall pay in the presence of the judges"
This is situation is different than abortion as the man is not nessecarily intending to kill the baby (as opposed to an abortion where thats really the whole point) also he suffes as much of a fine as the husband demands which is basically unlimited potential punishment.
It also says "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life". So the penalty for accidently killing a woman is death, but there is only a fine for accidently killing an unborn baby. Wouldn't that mean that unborn babies are not considered fully human? And therefore killing them is not murder?
This is an example of something fairly close to abortion (but not strictly speaking the same) and it is definitly condemeing it, althought granted not equating it with murder. So the BIble is clearly not condoning it.
Anyway this isn't strctly the same as abortion if one consiedered abortion murdr 1 this would be like murder 2 or manslaughter 1
Any thoughts?
An argumentatvie
Cinlef
Hm...I could refer to Ecclesiastes 4:1-3. It basically says that someone who is never born is better off than someone who lives in misery. So surely a woman who cannot support her child should have an abortion for it's own sake?
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It also says "But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life". So the penalty for accidently killing a woman is death, but there is only a fine for accidently killing an unborn baby. Wouldn't that mean that unborn babies are not considered fully human? And therefore killing them is not murder?
Good point. I would definitely not say that the Bible views accidental killing of unborn fetuses the same way western society views manslaughter.
Hm...I could refer to Ecclesiastes 4:1-3. It basically says that someone who is never born is better off than someone who lives in misery. So surely a woman who cannot support her child should have an abortion for it's own sake?
Another good point... but maybe taken out of context? Those verses refer to an oppressed and evil society. The author is clearly showing his low level of expectations for the quality of life of those yet unborn. The counterargument would be that you do not know that a child's life will be miserable; it's most likely to be average, and average quality of life in the West today is better than it was in the Middle East 2500 years ago... or 0 years ago, for that matter.
-Erasmus
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Another good point... but maybe taken out of context?
Yup, taken out of context deliberately in the same way that most of the anti-abortion verses are.
Such as Psalm 139:13-16 which is commonly taken out of context to support anti-abortion. The phrase "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" implies you are human before you are fully born. However this is talking about the pre-ordained King of Israel, so it's out of context.
If you want one that specifically relates to abortion, try Genesis 38:24.
About three months later Judah was told, "Your daughter-in-law Tamar is guilty of prostitution, and as a result she is now pregnant."
Judah said, "Bring her out and have her burned to death!"
The woman is to be killed despite the fact that the unborn baby would be also be killed. Clearly the bible does not consider an unborn baby a human.
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Another good point... but maybe taken out of context?
Yup, taken out of context deliberately in the same way that most of the anti-abortion verses are.
Such as Psalm 139:13-16 which is commonly taken out of context to support anti-abortion. The phrase "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" implies you are human before you are fully born. However this is talking about the pre-ordained King of Israel, so it's out of context.
Errr what are you talking about Psalm 139:13-16 is "Truly you have formed my inmost being you knit me in my mothers womb. I give you thanks that I am fearfully wonderfully made;wonderful are your works. My soul also you knew full well nor was my frame unknown to you. When I was made in secret when I was fashioned in the depths of the earth. Your eyes have seen my actions;in your book they are all written; my days were limited before one of them existed.
This is not talking about the preordained King of Israel, it's King David (who granted is the preordained King of Israel) praising Gods omnipotence. The key line is 139:15 My soul also you knew full well nor was my frame unknown to you.
There talking about the soul implies that an unborn baby does have a soul.
The context isn't particularly relevant unless your saying that line would apply only to King David and not to anyone else
A perplexed
Cinlef
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This is not talking about the preordained King of Israel, it's King David (who granted is the preordained King of Israel) praising Gods omnipotence. The key line is 139:15 My soul also you knew full well nor was my frame unknown to you.
There talking about the soul implies that an unborn baby does have a soul.
The context isn't particularly relevant unless your saying that line would apply only to King David and not to anyone else
A perplexed
Cinlef
Yes I am saying that it only applies to King David. Unless someone thinks that their child is the pre-ordained King of Israel, that verse cannot be used to support anti-abortion views.
(The edition I was using is different from yours, mine actually says "My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place", which makes no mention of a soul")
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Hmmmmm I think I understand your pont but I disagree ,however my explaining of why has been pretty weak, so I'm going to try again. The Psalm you cited is prasing the omnipotence of God. King David is talking about how God knew him even when he was in the womb. The reason the pro-life groups cite this is because it's saying that David has soul when he is in the womb. The fact that David was the pre-ordained King of Israel and wrote this Psalm in the first person isn't relevant (at least I don't see how). The Psalm is saying was a person in the eyes of God in the womb because even in the womb God knew of him. I sincerely fail to see the relevance of King David being the preordained King of Israel and how it would invalidate the most often used intepretation of this Psalm.
An perplexed
Cinlef
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King David is talking about how God knew him even when he was in the womb. The reason the pro-life groups cite this is because it's saying that David has soul when he is in the womb.
Yes indeed, but it says God knew David in the womb, not every human on the planet. David was pre-ordained to be King by God, so of course God would have to specially choose him in the womb. However not every human was chosen by God to be King. He is an exception, not the rule. Indeed he may have a soul, but if you take the fact that David had a soul in the womb and apply it to every human being, you are effectively taking it out of context.
If you do, I could take Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 which is talking about a society in the Middle East over 2000 years ago and apply it to today's society.
So that's why I don't think that verse is valid.
(I know you didn't bring that verse up, but I did a sort of "pre-emptive strike", George Bush style :D)
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King David is talking about how God knew him even when he was in the womb. The reason the pro-life groups cite this is because it's saying that David has soul when he is in the womb.
Yes indeed, but it says God knew David in the womb, not every human on the planet. David was pre-ordained to be King by God, so of course God would have to specially choose him in the womb. However not every human was chosen by God to be King. He is an exception, not the rule. Indeed he may have a soul, but if you take the fact that David had a soul in the womb and apply it to every human being, you are effectively taking it out of context.
If you do, I could take Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 which is talking about a society in the Middle East over 2000 years ago and apply it to today's society.
So that's why I don't think that verse is valid.
(I know you didn't bring that verse up, but I did a sort of "pre-emptive strike", George Bush style :D)
Okay well I now see your point. And yeah I was going to point out you brought this up, so you preemptive striked that as well :cry:
However I not sure David is a special case. Yes the Psalm only says that God knew David in the womb but is David so different from anyone else well I mean yeah he was a king and favored of the Lord but he was ultimatly a faillible human being like me and you and everyone else on the forum (that ostriches haven't replaced of course :wink: ) David is saying he had a soul in the womb.
So
Stament A) David is human
Stament B) David had a soul in the womb
Stament C)Humans have souls in the womb
Is a legitimate conclusion. Not the only conclusion granted but how exactly is it flawed
A intrigued
Cinlef
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Unless statement A is actually "David is the pre-ordained King of Isreal by God"...in which case the conclusion becomes "the Kings of Isreal pre-ordained by God have souls in the womb", and the conclusion is no longer relevant to abortion...
Which actually seems to be what the real argument seems to be about, not the logic by which you reached the conclusion.
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Unless statement A is actually "the David is the pre-ordained King of Isreal by God"...in which case the conclusion becomes "the Kings of Isreal pre-ordained by God have souls in the womb", and the conclusion is no longer relevant to abortion...
Which actually seems to be what the real argument seems to be about, not the logic by which you reached the conclusion.
Granted however both interpretations work. However this implies that the Kings of Israel are different from ordinary human beings, something for which I don't see he evidence. One could argue that everyone has a vocation (some job God calls them to do in life) and thus the King or Israel is no more or less preordained than a plumber.
YOur logic is akin to saying I set a history teacher on fire and conclude that history teachers burn. The correct conclusion would be I set a person on fire and people burn (my that came off kind of psycotic didn't it?)
An intrigued
Cinlef
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Stament A) David is human
Stament B) David had a soul in the womb
Stament C)Humans have souls in the womb
Is a legitimate conclusion.
I claim C is not a legitimate conclusion, which I think was cheesejoff's point. Consider an identically structured argument:
A) Sigmund is a flat-Earther.
B) Sigmund was anencephalic in the womb (his brain never developed).
C) Flat-Earthers are anencephalic in the womb (their brains never developed).
(who dares challenge my awesome powers of deduction?!?)
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Are we certain your Stament C is not a legitimate conclusion :wink: ?
Also my point was it's legitimate it's just not the only conclusion
Also isn't it odd the unpleseant fanatics have so far avoided this thread?
An intrigued
Cinlef
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Also my point was it's legitimate it's just not the only conclusion
My point was that C does not follow from A and B (even if it may happen to be true anyway). It makes for a "cogent" argument, but not a valid one. From a scientific standpoint, pointing out that David had a soul while in the womb can be considered evidence that all humans have souls in the womb.
Also isn't it odd the unpleseant fanatics have so far avoided this thread?
A little, yes.
-Erasmus
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Also my point was it's legitimate it's just not the only conclusion
My point was that C does not follow from A and B (even if it may happen to be true anyway). It makes for a "cogent" argument, but not a valid one. From a scientific standpoint, pointing out that David had a soul while in the womb can be considered evidence that all humans have souls in the womb.
Also isn't it odd the unpleseant fanatics have so far avoided this thread?
A little, yes.
-Erasmus
Wait are you agreeing with me. I'm confused
An puzzled
Cinlef
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Also isn't it odd the unpleseant fanatics have so far avoided this thread?
Not really, they can't discuss a serious topic in a civil manner, all they can do is go "0mg 0striches!"
Anyway, to the discussion-
"A red apple is red"
"An apple is a fruit"
"All fruit are red"
"David had a soul in the womb"
"David is a human"
"All humans have souls in the womb"
That's essentially what you're stating. As you say it's not the only possible outcome, but it's not necessarily true.
The only conclusions you can definately prove are that
A) The soul exists
B) Some humans have souls in the womb
The question is whether everyone has a soul in the womb and not just King David.
My opinion is that it doesn't. Since King David is pre-ordained, obviously he is chosen by God to be King before he is born. That is why God gives him a soul. If there was an ordinary person with a soul in the womb, then yes it would definately apply to everyone. But in my opinion David is a special case.
Of course I'm not necessarily right, your opinion is just as valid as mine. Unfortunately the bible is not clear on this (God should have added abortion into the ten commandments :D)
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My opinion is that it doesn't. Since King David is pre-ordained, obviously he is chosen by God to be King before he is born. That is why God gives him a soul. If there was an ordinary person with a soul in the womb, then yes it would definately apply to everyone.
Interesting... if it were referring to somebody other King David, and from that you concluded that the person was "ordinary" and that therefore it applied to everybody, I, just to play devil's advocate, would say that by definition, the person in question is *not* ordinary, since it is told to us that they have a soul in the womb, whereas it is not guaranteed that anybody else does.
I think just being mentioned in the bible probably makes a person some what out of the ordinary. And if we don't know whether or not people have souls in the womb, then being told that person X does indeed have a soul in the womb makes them special.
By way of analogy, certainly we don't know that everybody gets into heaven. But suppose we were told by a for-these-purposes-reliable source that a certain ordinary person did get into heaven. That property of that person, I suggests, makes it wrong to refer to them as ordinary.
Unfortunately the bible is not clear on this (God should have added abortion into the ten commandments :D)
Recall, Cinlef suggests that he *did* add abortion to the ten commandments...
-Erasmus
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I, just to play devil's advocate, would say that by definition, the person in question is *not* ordinary...
Actually I said that he's not ordinary as well: "But in my opinion David was a special case". Unless of course you are agreeing with me, in which case...er...good.
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Actually I said that he's not ordinary as well: "But in my opinion David was a special case". Unless of course you are agreeing with me, in which case...er...good.
I was disagreeing with you insofar as I suggest that even if it did *not* refer to King David, the person who's soul is guaranteed to exist even in the womb would still be a special case.
He would be special, not in that he is the preordained king of Israel, but in that he is one of the select few who have souls in the womb.
-Erasmus
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Actually I said that he's not ordinary as well: "But in my opinion David was a special case". Unless of course you are agreeing with me, in which case...er...good.
I was disagreeing with you insofar as I suggest that even if it did *not* refer to King David, the person who's soul is guaranteed to exist even in the womb would still be a special case.
He would be special, not in that he is the preordained king of Israel, but in that he is one of the select few who have souls in the womb.
-Erasmus
Ah, I see. You have a point, even if someone was not King David and had a soul in the womb, that still does not apply it to every human being.
However the fact that David is King is still an additional reason, because he's specially chosen by God to be King before he's born.
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However the fact that David is King is still an additional reason, because he's specially chosen by God to be King before he's born.
Certainly... in his case, there's a clear-cut "reason" why God might want him to have a soul as early as possible; in the case of the random-albeit-special person, we can't see anything else that's special about him.
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But I believe abortions should be legal. Stem cell research could very vell help out people more then a crack baby.
By "crack baby" I suppose you are referring to humans of lesser intelligence or mental handicaps? Or by "crack baby" could it be a baby that ends up being normal as it grows up but just born of that type of parents? I'll assume the first, but if the latter please explain. I'm not sure if I agree with either though.
I meant the ones who grew up with parents who didnt want them.
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cheesejoff I understand that this is unclear and I do follow your point. However how do we know God doesn't preordain all of us for specific tasks (leaving aside for the moment free will vs determinis since in a free will scenario we are merely called to do certain tasks wheras in a deterministic scenario we have no choice for the purpose of the point I'm making it doens't matter). If so then King David isn't any more special than someone preordained to be a carpenter, except that King David did more important things and ths got space in the Bible. King David wasn't an everyman granted but Im not sure he's so different from anyone else. However your original point about this Psalm (ie the context matters) seems to have been borne out by the page of two of disscussion so well done
An intrigued
Cinlef
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so well done
Thank you :D
Some related points: In Numbers 3:15, the census only counts children above one month old.
In Leviticus 27:6 there is a value placed on children above one month old, but anything less is worthless.
Of course that doesn't mean that killing them would not be murder, it's just interesting to see that the bible doesn't strictly count them as people until they are one month old.
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Of course that doesn't mean that killing them would not be murder, it's just interesting to see that the bible doesn't strictly count them as people until they are one month old.
Interesting point: they're not members of the Covenant yet. Maybe "Thou shalt not kill" doesn't apply to them for that reason?
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Hmmm while I haven't checked those yet (but I will I just swamped with work at the moment) perhaps there aren't included in the census due to the high infant mortality rate at the time? If more than half (correct me if thats too high or low please) died before one month then perhaps thery just aren't recorded cause the census keeper are trying to "be more efficient" (a catch phrase of bureaucrates no of any period)
An intrigued
Cinlef
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Hmmm while I haven't checked those yet (but I will I just swamped with work at the moment) perhaps there aren't included in the census due to the high infant mortality rate at the time? If more than half (correct me if thats too high or low please) died before one month then perhaps thery just aren't recorded cause the census keeper are trying to "be more efficient" (a catch phrase of bureaucrates no of any period)
An intrigued
Cinlef
Interesting... definitely a possibility.
From the same standpoint, it would be considered quite wrong in such a society to intentionally kill an infant. Children are valuable to society and not trivial to produce.
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Hmmm while I haven't checked those yet (but I will I just swamped with work at the moment) perhaps there aren't included in the census due to the high infant mortality rate at the time? If more than half (correct me if thats too high or low please) died before one month then perhaps thery just aren't recorded cause the census keeper are trying to "be more efficient" (a catch phrase of bureaucrates no of any period)
An intrigued
Cinlef
From the same standpoint, it would be considered quite wrong in such a society to intentionally kill an infant. Children are valuable to society and not trivial to produce.
Perhaps, but consider that in Leviticus children under one month old have no value. Although, that could be because of said high mortality rate.
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Perhaps, but consider that in Leviticus children under one month old have no value. Although, that could be because of said high mortality rate.
That's an interesting "caveat"... don't know what to make of it, though you could be right about the infant mortality thing. Infants aren't *really* valuable until they've passed the "50% chance of death" stage.
-Erasmus
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the "50% chance of death" stage"
Are you sure it's 50%? According to this site it's 30%
http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~barilm/infant.html
Although it does say that it is impossible to give an accurate percentage of the mortality rate at that time.
Anyway, 30-50% is quite high, so it's still a possibility...
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Okay so we have consensus on the census thing (omigod that rhymes I'm so sorry)?
if so any other passages?
An intrigued
Cinlef
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The main one is Genesis 38:24, where a pregnant woman condemned to suffer capital punishment, but they seem to have no problem with killing the unborn baby along with the mother.
These next two verses are out of context: Ezekiel 37:8-10 which tells the story of Adam who is not alive until his first breath, and Genesis 2:7 when God turns bones into living humans but they are not alive until their first breath.
It would suggest that humans are not alive until their first birth but of course neither of them are born naturally, one is created by God and one is resurected from bones...
Just to recap the out of context point, Ecclesiastes 6:3-5, Ecclesiastes 4:1-3, Job 3:2-4, 11-19, Job 10:18-19, Ezekiel 37:8-10, Genesis 2:7 can be used to support abortion when out of context.
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Sorry if I'm changing subject here, but is it alright if I express any islamic views on the subject of abortion, or are we strictly talking about the bible and christians? Again, I'm sorry if this in any way changes the focus of this discussion, but I just can't help wanting to say something. If it's not alright I totally understand.
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Stem cell research could very vell help out people more then a crack baby.
yes and the skin of the fetuses can be used by plastic surgeons to complete cologen injections.personally i belive abortion is wrong,only acceptable in the case of rape.no one wants to be a child born out of rape...think of the classroom taunting.yet in other circumstances,not on your life.pro choice,my ass.you had a choice to tell your "man" to leave the condom on.that was your mistake,now live with it.thats all pro-choicers are,people who cant live with their mistakes.
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Sorry to butt in, but I asked a question and I'd like it to be answered please.
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personally i belive abortion is wrong only acceptable in the case of rape.no one wants to be a child born out of rape...think of the classroom taunting.
Why would the classroom even be brought into that?
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I suppose this is the point where I give up and quit bothering, right?
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No, you shouldn't leave, you're welcome to express your views and beliefs as you will, but it may be wise to wait until these troubled times of spam are over. Also, if I'm not mistaken, A good number of moderators reside in Europe, where it is still somewhat early in the morning, so that may have something to do with the slow response to the spamming.
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All right, I'll just try and wait until all this blows over. Oh, it's also early morning here in Qatar. It's around 3oclock, but I suppose you didn't mean that early, did you?
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I suppose this is the point where I give up and quit bothering, right?
sorry,just got caught up expressing my point of view as well.you dont really have to ask to express yourself.all you need to say is "i know you all are talking about the bible and abortion,yet id like to share the islamic view of abortion", then so on and so forth.just do it.were all ears.
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[/quote]
Why would the classroom even be brought into that?[/quote]
they're called bullies.they've been around for quite a while.like,since the invention of school.
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they're called bullies.they've been around for quite a while.like,since the invention of school.
I know what a bully is, but what business do they have knowing that someone was the product of a rape? I doubt that many people outside of immediate family wouldn't know all that.
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hmm i know this relates back to the first page but David did kill Goliath, admittedly he probably wasn't 40 foot tall or anything, but even if he were just 6 foot tall he would have seemed like a giant at that time.
I believe most historians of this era say that Goliath was most likely a phonecian general trying to conquer the hebrews.... one stone between the eyes later and David becomes king david
Now onto the actual topic, personally i bleeive the aboriton is distateful, and it almost disgusts me when it is used because a chile would not be "convienient" as is said somewhere above you had sex, what the hell did you think would happen?
But saying that i beleive that woman should have the choice. Just as i beleive someone has the right to vote for a neo-nazi group at a general election i think they have the right to an abortion. But i don't particualarly want to know someone who does either.
I also beleive that an abortion hurts you more in the long term than having the child would have done - most woman regret having an abortion after the fact, but i have yet to meet a mother who says that they regret choosing to have there child.
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Anyways, as I wanted to say earlier, abortion is a massive sin in Islamic faith, as it is essentially killing, and a Muslim can only kill under these circumstances;
1. The person that is killed was one who spread mischief around the land, and mischief in this context means disrupting the peace of the community, like murder, rape, stuff like that.
2. That person killed someone beloved to you and you want vengeance.
( Islam allows vengeance, but the punishment must not exceed the crime. And while vengeance is allowed, God gives you a lot of credit for forgiveness).
(EDIT: 3. In wartime.
4. As a form of justice ( execution).)
So as abortion is killing, and it does't fall under these four categories, it's pretty much counted as murder.
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I would like to elaborate on executions ( not being sadistic here), but I'm not bothered and this isn't the right thread.
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Feel free to create a thread on it. I'm sure it will be interesting to see what kind of discussion it sparks.
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I don't think this is the time for me to spark anything. But maybe I should start a thread.
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most woman regret having an abortion after the fact,
Wow, that's a sweeping statement. Anything to back it up?
Did anybody stop to think that it would be worse for some people to have the baby and either not be able to provide for it(Financially, as a parent, etc) or do a shitty job at it? And adoption appears to cause much pain for the child when it eventually finds out.
I know what a bully is, but what business do they have knowing that someone was the product of a rape? I doubt that many people outside of immediate family wouldn't know all that.
Agreed. I doubt it will be common knowledge that little billy from down the street was concieved due to his mother being raped.
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This all really pisses me off considering half of you are not even of legal age yet.
Who are you to judge what is right for a woman?
How would you kow what is "right" for the child in question?
Who made you god??
I AGREE with aboprtion becasue everyone SHOULD have a choice.
And rape is not the only case.
Imagine, you little 16 yr olds, that you were having sex with the woman you thought you loved, with a condom mind you, but that is only 99% safe. The condom breaks, she is now pregnant. Do you think as a 16 yr old with no job, no prospects, still living in your parents home that it is right to bring taht child into that kind of environment?
DO NOT accuse women who get abortions as "distasteful" that is f((kin ignorant and half witted to boot.
This thread has really annoyed me
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Until you have experienced it first hand, DO NOT talk as though you are some kind of f**kin expert.
I would love to see what these people who do not "believe" in abortion would do if they got their GF (if they even had one) pregnant.
Im sure it would be a different story then.
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Abortion is murder. I believe in the death penalty. Anyone who has an abortion should be chopped up like the baby they murdered, the clinic should be hit by nerve gas, they should cut the person's head open, then kill all of you idiots, cut your heads open, and see who has the smaller brain. First they need to make advances with electron microscopes to find your brains.
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I think you people need to calm down.
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Sarthos is one of the knobs from atheist forum.
Ive seen his photo, god what a nubcake *sigh*
Hes never had a GF and thinks abortion is when you whallop a donkey with a spoon.
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Sarthos is one of the knobs from atheist forum.
Ive seen his photo, god what a nubcake *sigh*
Hes never had a GF and thinks abortion is when you whallop a donkey with a spoon.
quixotic has performed numerous abortions in his day.
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He enjoys whalloping asses with spoons
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Both of you shut up you ignorant fucks.
I would love to see waht desu, being 15 would do if he got a girl pregnant...if hes ever even got his dick wet.
Its not as easy decision as you think dipshits. Would you really think that people just go, " awwww fuck, better shove a coat hanger up my girlfriends twat and rip this sucker out". IDIOTS
Your making the decision to terminate YOUR childs life, its not easy, so dont be little hypcrites
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Both of you shut up you ignorant fucks.
I would love to see waht desu, being 15 would do if he got a girl pregnant...if hes ever even got his dick wet.
Its not as easy decision as you think dipshits. Would you really think that people just go, " awwww fuck, better shove a coat hanger up my girlfriends twat and rip this sucker out". IDIOTS
Your making the decision to terminate YOUR childs life, its not easy, so dont be little hypcrites
When did I say I would abort my child if I got a girl pregnant?
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Who said it was an easy decision to make?
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Actually, if you really want to know, a good friend of mine did get pregnant, and I was one of the people who helped her decide whether or not to abort the child, she is twenty, so I actually do know what I'm talking about, don't call me ignorant, I would almost bet I have seen worse in my shorter time on this planet than you have in yours.
So dont underestimate my ability to empathize, asshole.
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Your friend.....
Ive had to deal with many friends goin through this, both male and female...but....
Im talking about your child, until you have to abort your OWN childs life, dont talk to me about empathy...
And Desu, im not saying taht you siad you did, i Just find it extremely annoying for you guys to say that you wouldnt do it if it happened, but yet, you've never been in that situation, so you are no authority on what is right for me, women, or the next person.
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Your friend.....
Ive had to deal with many friends goin through this, both male and female...but....
Im talking about your child, until you have to abort your OWN childs life, dont talk to me about empathy...
And Desu, im not saying taht you siad you did, i Just find it extremely annoying for you guys to say that you wouldnt do it if it happened, but yet, you've never been in that situation, so you are no authority on what is right for me, women, or the next person.
Uh, I never tried to exert authority over you or anyone in this thread. I simply made a jest.
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And no Crimson, you have not seen more then me in your short life.
Ive seen thigns that the human eye should never see.
I ve done things i will regret always.
I ve been places that both amaze and disgust me.
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Then dont jest at something that is obviously not that important to you Desu. Its stupid to make random commetns about something you know nothing off when there are peopl who atek this shit to heart.
Its not a joke, where talking about a childs life and the future of its parents.
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And no Crimson, you have not seen more then me in your short life.
Ive seen thigns that the human eye should never see.
I ve done things i will regret always.
I ve been places that both amaze and disgust me.
Ill not made the supid sick joke I was going to, out of respect for the seriousness of your comments. Same here though, the kind of thing that just burns into your mind the evil that is the human race, and other times just shows how awesome people can be, the spectrum is amazing
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Then dont jest at something that is obviously not that important to you Desu. Its stupid to make random commetns about something you know nothing off when there are peopl who atek this shit to heart.
Its not a joke, where talking about a childs life and the future of its parents.
I can't hear you over my apathy.
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Then you dont deserve to be in this conversation.
You comment above just proves that you are a virgin and have no idea about what we're talking about.
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Then you dont deserve to be in this conversation.
You comment above just proves that you are a virgin and have no idea about what we're talking about.
That hurt my feelings.
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The truth hurts......
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Basically, this is nobody's business but the mother and father's. Only they can properly judge if it is viable to bring a child into the world. If they decide that they cannot provide for the child, and they they don't wish to subject the child to the pain of adoption/foster parents, then they should have the right to choose without fear of reprisal from conservative wankers.
If you were in that situation (despite the obvious set-backs in being able to judge what decision you'd make) wouldn't you prefer the right to choose for yourself? Wouldn't you prefer to make an informed decision with your partner, as opposed to having someone you've never met and will never meet, telling you what's right and wrong for you and your family?
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I just dont think people who have not had to make the decision themselves should be making comments about something that they have never have to do.
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I think you should be able to comment if you understand the implications of the actions, and the circumstances involved.
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But you dont, none of you obviously do, because you ahvent been faced with it.
It obvious now to all of you that I have had to do it in the past, and it hits close to home when you guys talk disrespectfully about it.
It was a very hard decision and one that i did not make lightly and one that had a very adverse effect on my life, I am a chnged man now, but i would not change my decision with hindsight.
It is impossible for anyone to understand the implications unless you yourself are put in the istuation.
Please do not be disrespectful.
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Once again, I have helped a good friend make the descision, the result directly impacted my life, in more ways than one, and I feel it every time I talk to her.
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Frankly Quix, I think it really respectable that you are willing to talk about it in an open forum.
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I should kill you just for calling me athiest. If you've paid attention, I've said (repeatedly) that people who are athiests, or don't believe in Christianity, should die. I'm not suicidal, n00b. You are, for being so retarded, and trying to start a fight with someone who could plead insanity, and get away with murder.
Quixtoxic, you couldn't have seen my photo, unless you were a gay stalker, and if you are, I'll hunt you down, chop your fingers off, force you to eat them, then butcher you within an inch of your life, but making sure you live to feel the pain.
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you sir, are an idiot.
So ignorant and trolltastic.
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Bring it Sarthos, I have no problem in coming to meet you to teach you a lesson you sorely deserve, i have the time, the money and the means to meet you where ever you want loser.
And please.....your poor attempt at a description of murder awas laughable, you obviously still read Roald Dahl and the likes of Paul Jennings.
Get a vocabulary and a get a life
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And Thank you Crimson.
Now you can understand why this is so personal to me.
I can respect that you helped your friend, but pls resepect that it is still very different when it is your own kid.
Toughest decision taht has ever need to be made.
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I should kill you just for calling me athiest. If you've paid attention, I've said (repeatedly) that people who are athiests, or don't believe in Christianity, should die. I'm not suicidal, n00b. You are, for being so retarded, and trying to start a fight with someone who could plead insanity, and get away with murder.
Quixtoxic, you couldn't have seen my photo, unless you were a gay stalker, and if you are, I'll hunt you down, chop your fingers off, force you to eat them, then butcher you within an inch of your life, but making sure you live to feel the pain.
Why do you feel the need to come here and "Threaten" ( :lol: ) our members?
You are free to think whatever you want on this subject (and any others covered in this forum) but there's no need to "Threaten" :roll: those with opposing views.
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I don't make threats, I make promises. NO weapons, fist fight, name the time and place, and you will not survive.
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I don't make threats, I make promises. NO weapons, fist fight, name the time and place, and you will not survive.
This is a topic for the discussion of whether the church condemns abortion/abortion related topics.
Please see here: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3734 for fights/fighting :D
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OK sarthos.....
You can see the above link, you know where I am.
Where you B I A T C H !!!
I don't make threats, I make promises. NO weapons, fist fight, name the time and place, and you will not survive.
Namgin Time and Place:
Meet me at Garema Place at 7:30 this Firday night 11th August, and bring some bandages...
There will only be three hits:
Me hitting you,
You hitting the floor,
And the ambulance hittin 100
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Ahahaha I doubt he's committed enough to come to us Quix.
Careful fighting in Garema place, you might get stabbed by a club owner: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200608/s1708509.htm
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Of course he wont come to me....he cant drive yet, so he would be an unaccompanied minor on the plane, so I guess I can meet him halfway....which would be where Sarthos??
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Right...I think everyone needs to chill out here and get back to the original topic.
Quix, calm yourself down; yes, you've had to deal with this and it's very personal to you, that gives you no right to tell other people that their opinions on it are worthless. Simply because they have not had to deal with it does not mean that their opinions are wrong, to imply such is merely an ad hominem attack, and thus a logical fallacy, and the last two pages of this thread are an example of where such comments lead.
So, virgin or not, and regardless of whether you have had to decide whether you or someone you care about had an abortion, feel free to post your opinion. Of course, quixotic, feel equally free to disagree, just don't use thier age, or life experience to disqualify their arguments.
That all said, I think the issue at hand is a complicated one. On the one hand, I have my belief that freedom of choice should be as unhindered as possible, while on the other lies my concern that abortions could prevent lives that could have shaped the world from ever seeing the light of day, as well as my disgust for the taking of human life.
Personally, I feel, though I haven't explored my feelings or rationale as to why I do so, that abortions should be allowed, up to the point where the baby is developped enough to be aware of the fact that it exists, how we guage this, however, I don't know.
Anyways, that's just my two cents, however, feel free to continue you your worthless threats.
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Strings...this thread is about life experience....
I have HAD to do it, they have not, i was in pain for weeks, they were not, i watched my girlfriend slowly fall aprt, they did not.
So Please do not tell me that life experience counts for nothing.
And to me their opinions on the matter are relatively worthless, because you do not know what it is like.
Its like when i was young and i said to everyone "pfft ill never do anything harder then choog (marijuana for those who dont know choof), but the fact was, i hadnt been exposed to it yet, and when i was, i did take other drugs...
Im not saying other people would change their mind if put in the situation, but you cannot comment on "how you would feel at the time' unless you actually had to walk into an abortion clinic, past all those fuckin portesters who taunt poor women and sit there while your girlfriend goes through possibly the worst experience of her life. Oh and yea, she really wanted to get it done and risk that fact that she could never have kids again...
Good Job...
Plus im only riling Sarthos, coz he insulted people on a prefectly normal discussion.
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Oh, sorry, I forgot that murder is normal. I say teachers should just stuff the children they don't like into a blender. How's that for you?
I live in Canada, and if you can get over here, I'll gladly kill you. I've put people better than you in intensive care, and they were armed. See what happens when you're not armed, retard.
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Oh, sorry, I forgot that murder is normal. I say teachers should just stuff the children they don't like into a blender. How's that for you?
I live in Canada, and if you can get over here, I'll gladly kill you. I've put people better than you in intensive care, and they were armed. See what happens when you're not armed, retard.
Can I buy the best bits of you on DVD? You're priceless! :D
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God....you are u believable....
Your teacher can do waht ever the fuck she wants, but when she gets pregnant from you you little skinner, lets how wellshe does then
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Abortion is murder. I believe in the death penalty. Anyone who has an abortion should be chopped up like the baby they murdered, the clinic should be hit by nerve gas, they should cut the person's head open, then kill all of you idiots, cut your heads open, and see who has the smaller brain. First they need to make advances with electron microscopes to find your brains.
thats very christian,"belive what i belive or ill hurt you".blowing up an abortion clinic is one of the most hypocritical things you can do.killing someone because you belive in life.obviously someone that has that kind of a train of thought as yourself could never be called a real christian.you speak of nerve gas,beheadings,killings.is that what jesus thought of? i didnt think so.this is why i hate the typical modern day christian.theyre such hypocrites.theyll gladly scream and run around church yet theyre bad people.if jesus does exist,he will certainly not save people like you,sarthos.in fact you sound satanic.i hope quixotic beats the shit out of you with an iron broom handle.
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The bible cannot condemn the act of abortion, as in it is an inanimate object. The children are not chopped up, some places just throw them away, some incinerate them, and some are sent to legalized stem cell research.
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Abortion is murder. I believe in the death penalty. Anyone who has an abortion should be chopped up like the baby they murdered, the clinic should be hit by nerve gas, they should cut the person's head open, then kill all of you idiots, cut your heads open, and see who has the smaller brain. First they need to make advances with electron microscopes to find your brains.
thats very christian,"belive what i belive or ill hurt you".blowing up an abortion clinic is one of the most hypocritical things you can do.killing someone because you belive in life.obviously someone that has that kind of a train of thought as yourself could never be called a real christian.you speak of nerve gas,beheadings,killings.is that what jesus thought of? i didnt think so.this is why i hate the typical modern day christian.theyre such hypocrites.theyll gladly scream and run around church yet theyre bad people.if jesus does exist,he will certainly not save people like you,sarthos.in fact you sound satanic.i hope quixotic beats the shit out of you with an iron broom handle.
Agreed regarding anti-abortionists blowing up clinics. Ridiculously hypocritical. Almost comically. However, I wouldn't lob all modern day Christians in together - that's not really fair. I do agree that their are more than one with these sorts of views.
and some are sent to legalized stem cell research.
Ooh I feel another thread coming on - but would it go in here or everything else?
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Abortion is murder. I believe in the death penalty. Anyone who has an abortion should be chopped up like the baby they murdered, the clinic should be hit by nerve gas, they should cut the person's head open, then kill all of you idiots, cut your heads open, and see who has the smaller brain. First they need to make advances with electron microscopes to find your brains.
thats very christian,"belive what i belive or ill hurt you".blowing up an abortion clinic is one of the most hypocritical things you can do.killing someone because you belive in life.obviously someone that has that kind of a train of thought as yourself could never be called a real christian.you speak of nerve gas,beheadings,killings.is that what jesus thought of? i didnt think so.this is why i hate the typical modern day christian.theyre such hypocrites.theyll gladly scream and run around church yet theyre bad people.if jesus does exist,he will certainly not save people like you,sarthos.in fact you sound satanic.i hope quixotic beats the shit out of you with an iron broom handle.
Rick James said
"Agreed regarding anti-abortionists blowing up clinics. Ridiculously hypocritical. Almost comically. However, I wouldn't lob all modern day Christians in together - that's not really fair. I do agree that their are more than one with these sorts of views."
i said typical modern day christian.not all of them.
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Abortion is murder. I believe in the death penalty. Anyone who has an abortion should be chopped up like the baby they murdered, the clinic should be hit by nerve gas, they should cut the person's head open, then kill all of you idiots, cut your heads open, and see who has the smaller brain. First they need to make advances with electron microscopes to find your brains.
thats very christian,"belive what i belive or ill hurt you".blowing up an abortion clinic is one of the most hypocritical things you can do.killing someone because you belive in life.obviously someone that has that kind of a train of thought as yourself could never be called a real christian.you speak of nerve gas,beheadings,killings.is that what jesus thought of? i didnt think so.this is why i hate the typical modern day christian.theyre such hypocrites.theyll gladly scream and run around church yet theyre bad people.if jesus does exist,he will certainly not save people like you,sarthos.in fact you sound satanic.i hope quixotic beats the shit out of you with an iron broom handle.
Rick James said
"Agreed regarding anti-abortionists blowing up clinics. Ridiculously hypocritical. Almost comically. However, I wouldn't lob all modern day Christians in together - that's not really fair. I do agree that their are more than one with these sorts of views."
i said typical modern day christian.not all of them.
That's just as lame as saying they're all like that. How can you say a "typical" modern-day Christian is anything but a modern-day Christian? You can hardly say the typical Christian wants to blow up a clinic. Especially went the sheer number of "modern day christians" that exists. This is a dumb generalisation which adds nothing to your argument.
(I'm not Christian) and on the whole I agree with you, but these statements detract from the rest of your post.
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I am also a modern Christian, as are many of my friends, the action is not typical, it is in fact hardcore extreemism. It would be about the same as saying all Muslims strap bombs to themselves (anyone going to flame should read the post again.)
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Namgin Time and Place:
Oh hey, speaking of naming times and places, have you pretty much given up on our Antarctic adventure? I never got the a copy of the contract - or indeed any word from you at all.
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I sent it to you......
Does your email have filters??
Send me an email and I will reply.
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The Cathars were abortionists and used birth control because they didn't want to bring more children into the world. They were described as having "unnatural sex practises." Innocent III wiped them out.
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WTF? Do you use Linux? You must be extremely n00bian.
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Abortion is murder. I believe in the death penalty. Anyone who has an abortion should be chopped up like the baby they murdered, the clinic should be hit by nerve gas, they should cut the person's head open, then kill all of you idiots, cut your heads open, and see who has the smaller brain. First they need to make advances with electron microscopes to find your brains.
thats very christian,"belive what i belive or ill hurt you".blowing up an abortion clinic is one of the most hypocritical things you can do.killing someone because you belive in life.obviously someone that has that kind of a train of thought as yourself could never be called a real christian.you speak of nerve gas,beheadings,killings.is that what jesus thought of? i didnt think so.this is why i hate the typical modern day christian.theyre such hypocrites.theyll gladly scream and run around church yet theyre bad people.if jesus does exist,he will certainly not save people like you,sarthos.in fact you sound satanic.i hope quixotic beats the shit out of you with an iron broom handle.
Rick James said
"Agreed regarding anti-abortionists blowing up clinics. Ridiculously hypocritical. Almost comically. However, I wouldn't lob all modern day Christians in together - that's not really fair. I do agree that their are more than one with these sorts of views."
i said typical modern day christian.not all of them.
That's just as lame as saying they're all like that. How can you say a "typical" modern-day Christian is anything but a modern-day Christian? You can hardly say the typical Christian wants to blow up a clinic. Especially went the sheer number of "modern day christians" that exists. This is a dumb generalisation which adds nothing to your argument.
(I'm not Christian) and on the whole I agree with you, but these statements detract from the rest of your post.
i said the typical modern day christian is a hypocrite.i said nothing about typical christians blowing up abortion clinics.reread the post and at least attempt to process the information i typed before you make stupid little pre-processed garbage.in fact we should be channeling our anger at hypocrite sarthos.
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reading that, i conclude that sarthos has to be american.
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hee sed hee iz a Canadien, nübz
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*url removed*
stop posting that.
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thats very christian,"belive what i belive or ill hurt you".blowing up an abortion clinic is one of the most hypocritical things you can do.killing someone because you belive in life.obviously someone that has that kind of a train of thought as yourself could never be called a real christian.you speak of nerve gas,beheadings,killings.is that what jesus thought of? i didnt think so.this is why i hate the typical modern day christian.theyre such hypocrites.theyll gladly scream and run around church yet theyre bad people.if jesus does exist,he will certainly not save people like you,sarthos.in fact you sound satanic.i hope quixotic beats the shit out of you with an iron broom handle.
The bolded part must have "confused" me.
But I agree. Sights now aimed at sarthos.
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iff Quixtoxic uses un iron broom, he onlee proves he's a n00bly little coward, like you r
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WTF???
Who r u nOObian, the sweat on thenunderside of my scrot??
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Quix, he's just a worthless troll; don't worry about it.
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WTF???
Who r u nOObian, the sweat on thenunderside of my scrot??
Naw he got fired from that job. Wouldn't show up for work on time. Kept hanging around assholes lol. LETS GET BACK ON TOPIC!!!
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LOL
i think topic has petaed out.....
still, abortion is a choice of though who have to make the choice, no one can make that choice for you or on behalf of you.
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iff Quixtoxic uses un iron broom, he onlee proves he's a n00bly little coward, like you r
i have no problem with using an iron broom handle on you.we'll see how important your little "coward" opinion is when youre in ER.where is sarthos?
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The Cathars were abortionists and used birth control because they didn't want to bring more children into the world. They were described as having "unnatural sex practises." Innocent III wiped them out.
Innocent wiped them out because it was a rogue religion. Simple, Catholics didn't take the crap back then, simple as that, they wiped out paganism, cathars, etc.
and n00bian needs to be castrated, 'twould be fun.