The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: Sir-Phobos on April 27, 2007, 10:27:15 PM
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I'd like to hear someone attempt to explain Polaris.
Since it's positioned (approximately) exactly above the North Pole, according to your FAQ, it should be viewable from the extreme southern point of your flat Earth model with an angle of 12.45 degrees above the horizon:
tan-1(3000/12450) = 12.45
Using the same calculation, it should be viewable from the equator with an angle of
tan-1(3000/6225) = 25.73 degrees above the horizon
Both of which are clearly false. Polaris is not viewable at all from the Southern Hemisphere
Also, the angle from the Horizon to the North Star using a Round Earth is exactly equal to your latitude. Thus, myself at approximately 42 deg. N latitude can view Polaris at an angle of 42 degrees above the Horizon. Additionally, as you approach the equator, the angle of Polaris to the horizon will approach and eventually reach 0 degrees at the equator, which shouldn't happen in your model.
Explain away...
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I can guess what the explanation is going to be...
You have been tricked/bribed/blackmailed by the government/NASA to believe this!
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No, you just won't get an answer.
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I'd like to hear someone attempt to explain Polaris.
Since it's positioned (approximately) exactly above the North Pole, according to your FAQ, it should be viewable from the extreme southern point of your flat Earth model with an angle of 12.45 degrees above the horizon:
tan-1(3000/12450) = 12.45
Using the same calculation, it should be viewable from the equator with an angle of
tan-1(3000/6225) = 25.73 degrees above the horizon
Both of which are clearly false. Polaris is not viewable at all from the Southern Hemisphere
Also, the angle from the Horizon to the North Star using a Round Earth is exactly equal to your latitude. Thus, myself at approximately 42 deg. N latitude can view Polaris at an angle of 42 degrees above the Horizon. Additionally, as you approach the equator, the angle of Polaris to the horizon will approach and eventually reach 0 degrees at the equator, which shouldn't happen in your model.
Explain away...
Okay, I'll give it my best shot. It's because the earth is a sphere.
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Come on FE'rs this is a good question! Answer it for god's sake.
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Or don't. It's up to you.
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They can't explain because the earth is actually round
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We are still waiting for a response here. Or are you still working out the finer points of how this relates to the conspiracy?
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FE'ers have answered this question many times before. Like most astronomical observations that don't fit with their model, they attribute it to atmospheric distortion.
The FE'ers say that there must be some atmospheric effect at work. Otherwise, most astronomical objects (Not just Polaris, but the sun and the moon) should be visible from every point on Earth.
Obviously, this isn't a satisfactory answer. We understand pretty well how objects can distort light, and there is no possible mechanism proposed for how the atmosphere might accomplish something of this level, but the point is that FE'ers do have an answer to this question.
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There's an entire section on the declination of the pole star in Earth Not a Globe by Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham. Read it before starting ignorant threads declaring "FE doesn't answer this!"
Honestly, every question asked on this forum has been accurately answered over 150 years ago.
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Unfortunately Tom, not all of us have access to the book. So perhaps you could explain it for us, or are you incapable?
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You mean the book that says this?
The light of the moon is damp, cold, and powerfully septic; and animal and nitrogenous vegetable substances. exposed to it soon show symptoms of putrefaction. Even living creatures by long exposure to the moon's rays, become morbidly affected. It is a common thing on board vessels going through tropical regions, for written or printed notices to be issued, prohibiting persons from sleeping on deck exposed to full moonlight, experience having proved that such exposure is often followed by injurious consequences.
It is said that the moon has a pernicious effect upon those who, in the East, sleep in its beams; and that fish having been exposed to them for only one night, becomes most injurious to those who eat it.
At Peckham Rye, a boy named Lowry has entirely lost his sight by sleeping in a field in the bright moonlight.
If we place in an exposed position two pieces of meat, and one of them be subjected to the moon's rays, while the other is protected from them by a screen or a cover, the former will be tainted with putrefaction much sooner than the other.
Professor Tyndall describing his journey to the summit of the Alpine Mountain, Weisshorn, August 21st, 1861, says: "I lay with my face towards the moon (which was nearly full), and gazed until my face and eyes became so chilled that I was fain to protect them with a handkerchief."
Tom will probably respond by linking to an article which describes moonlight and human behavior. Does Rowbotham mention behavior in the above passage? I don't think so.
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Unfortunately Tom, not all of us have access to the book. So perhaps you could explain it for us, or are you incapable?
I read this in "Earth Not a Globe" and it doesn't explain anything. It does not explain why the angle approaches zero at the equator (when it shouldn't, as I've shown why in my first post), and why the angle we view it at is EXACTLY equal to our position North latitude. The fact is the angle we can view Polaris at is completely inconsistent with what we should see it at under a "Flat Earth".\
Maybe I would give you guys more credit if you would actually support your beliefs with evidence rather than pointing to some text written 150 years ago.
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Maybe I would give you guys more credit if you would actually support your beliefs with evidence rather than pointing to some text written 150 years ago.
Which doesn't even address the appropriate point, even if it did have even a shred of scientific credibility.
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Tom will probably respond by linking to an article which describes moonlight and human behavior. Does Rowbotham mention behavior in the above passage? I don't think so.
My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that “Tom” is an experiment in human behavior. I’d be interested in the results of the study when it’s published. It’s got to be better reading than the Earth Not A Globe tract.
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Yeah I'm starting to think this site is fake. No way anyone could actually believe this crap.
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Another phenomenon supposed to prove rotundity, is thought to be the fact that Polaris, or the north polar star sinks to the horizon as the traveller approaches the equator, on passing which it becomes invisible. This is a conclusion fully as premature and illogical as that involved in the several cases already alluded to. It is an ordinary effect of perspective for an object to appear lower and lower as the observer goes farther and farther away from it. Let any one try the experiment of looking at a light-house, church spire, monument, gas lamp, or other elevated object, from a distance of only a few yards, and notice the angle at which it is observed. On going farther away, the angle under which it is seen will diminish, and the object will appear lower and lower as the distance of the observer increases, until, at a certain point, the line of sight to the object, and the apparently uprising surface of the earth upon or over which it stands, will converge to the angle which constitutes the "vanishing point" or the horizon; beyond which it will be invisible.
What can be more common than the observation that, standing at one end of a long row of lamp-posts, those nearest to us seem to be the highest; and those farthest away the lowest; whilst, as we move along towards the opposite end of the series, those which we approach seem to get higher, and those we are leaving behind appear to gradually become lower.
This lowering of the pole star as we recede southwards; and the rising of the stars in the south as we approach them, is the necessary result of the everywhere visible law of perspective operating between the eye-line of the observer, the object observed, and the plane surface upon which he stands; and has no connection with or relation whatever to the supposed rotundity of the earth.
That's what Rowbotham has to say, but sadly he is a little...well....wrong.
He does not, for example, account for the linear descent of the pole star with decreasing latitude, i.e. that it corresponds to one's latitude exactly or even approximately. Some calculations, using the fact that the pole star is at 54 degrees above the horizon at 54 N latitude (I can verify this personally, as can anyone else on this latitude) and almost directly above the North Pole puts the Pole Star at 5,505 km from the ground. However, doing this same calculation from Miami (26 N) puts the pole star at 9,787km in height.
Rowbotham does not notice these inconsistencies because he was based in England, and thus it was easy for him (as it is for Tom and others, US based) to discount southern measurements as false. The FE model, however, does not even adequately explain Northern Hemisphere phenomena, as shown here.
As to the site being fake, I reckon it started as real but may well be now populated almost entirely by fakers.
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There's an entire section on the declination of the pole star in Earth Not a Globe by Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham. Read it before starting ignorant threads declaring "FE doesn't answer this!"
Honestly, every question asked on this forum has been accurately answered over 150 years ago.
Tom Bishop cannot make his own arguments, so let's look at Rowbotham's:
You all should read the section mentioned by Tom Bishop, http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za37.htm (http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za37.htm), which clearly states that the principle of perspective makes stars impossible to see when the angle of a star above the horizon is lower than that of Polaris seen from the equator. We can all accept the calculation from the Opening Post as at least approximately right. But that means no stars can be seen if they are less than 5 degrees above the horizon!
As always, Tom Bishop cannot just buy a telescope and look at the stars. He has to look at a book with no numbers other than the page numbers, so he can understand it and declare it as undeniable truth!
Please, Tom, buy a telescope and look at the stars! In particular, look at the stars that are clearly visible right down to the horizon.
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The book is a pure phailure in explaining the above mentioned fact. This fact has been posted on the forums so many times and there is always the same BS about some perspective laws. The op clearly states that there will be a lowering in the attitude of Polaris as we go to the Equator from the North, but the angle will always be above zero (or above the horizon), which is not the case in reality. Polaris CAN NOT BE SEEN from points SOUTH of the EQUATOR!!!
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We are still waiting for a response here. Or are you still working out the finer points of how this relates to the conspiracy?
Raise kids, then check back.
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Polaris CAN NOT BE SEEN from points SOUTH of the EQUATOR!!!
Do you have proof for this presumption? Can you back up your claim with observations?
In his excursions, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reports that on the 23rd of January 1862 the Pole Star was seen from a part of the earth 23 1/2 degrees beyond the equator.
Unless you have anything more than a frivolous model or assumptions, I'm more inclined to believe personal observations and statements from a man who has spent his life studying the shape of the earth.
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Polaris CAN NOT BE SEEN from points SOUTH of the EQUATOR!!!
Do you have proof for this presumption? Can you back up your claim with observations?
In his excursions, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reports that on the 23rd of January 1862 the Pole Star was seen from a part of the earth 23 1/2 degrees beyond the equator.
Unless you have anything more than a frivolous Round Earth model, I'm more inclined to believe personal observation and statements from a man who has spent his life studying the shape of the earth.
You know this statement disporves the fe right?
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In his excursions, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reports that on the 23rd of January 1862 the Pole Star was seen from a part of the earth 23 1/2 degrees beyond the equator.
And in one sentence, you just showed Rowbotham contradicting his entire FE argument. Like I said earlier, this guy has no credibility left. Try again.
{EDIT}Of course sok beats me to it. :'(
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In his excursions, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reports that on the 23rd of January 1862 the Pole Star was seen from a part of the earth 23 1/2 degrees beyond the equator.
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What does this beyond exaclty mean? And where was his excursion?
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Polaris CAN NOT BE SEEN from points SOUTH of the EQUATOR!!!
Do you have proof for this presumption? Can you back up your claim with observations?
In his excursions, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reports that on the 23rd of January 1862 the Pole Star was seen from a part of the earth 23 1/2 degrees beyond the equator.
Unless you have anything more than a frivolous Round Earth model, I'm more inclined to believe personal observation and statements from a man who has spent his life studying the shape of the earth.
You know this statement disporves the fe right?
Ok here is the math on how this disporves the fe.
To say he could see the north star means he could see for 90+23 degress so 113 degrees. That means I better be able to see the sky up to 113 degrees too. So that means that I can see to about 63 degrees past the north pole. so to 27 degrees north on the other side. Just shy of The tropic of cancer. So if I can see a star that far away I better be able to see the sun as in millions of times brighter. So therefore I would be able to see the sun for 24 hours at the June solstice. Which I cant. And I'm down here at around 40 degrees so people further north would be able to see the sun even longer.
Since I cant see the sun I know Rowbotham is lying. If he lied about this he probably lied about much more. Thats why no one can do his experiments. So this in turn disproves the Fe.
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(http://www.tonyspencer.com/mt/archives/borat.jpg)
Very nice!
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Seconded.
Some of Rowbotham's experiments were reproduced and shown to demonstrate RE. Before Tom jumps on this calling all those who reproduced the experiments 'quacks' and the like, this is just a side note. Please concentrate your refuting powers on sokarul's excellent post.
His logic is undeniable.
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Polaris CAN NOT BE SEEN from points SOUTH of the EQUATOR!!!
Do you have proof for this presumption? Can you back up your claim with observations?
In his excursions, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reports that on the 23rd of January 1862 the Pole Star was seen from a part of the earth 23 1/2 degrees beyond the equator.
Unless you have anything more than a frivolous Round Earth model, I'm more inclined to believe personal observation and statements from a man who has spent his life studying the shape of the earth.
You know this statement disporves the fe right?
Ok here is the math on how this disporves the fe.
To say he could see the north star means he could see for 90+23 degress so 113 degrees. That means I better be able to see the sky up to 113 degrees too. So that means that I can see to about 63 degrees past the north pole. so to 27 degrees north on the other side. Just shy of The tropic of cancer. So if I can see a star that far away I better be able to see the sun as in millions of times brighter. So therefore I would be able to see the sun for 24 hours at the June solstice. Which I cant. And I'm down here at around 40 degrees so people further north would be able to see the sun even longer.
Since I cant see the sun I know Rowbotham is lying. If he lied about this he probably lied about much more. Thats why no one can do his experiments. So this in turn disproves the Fe.
Sorry, I'm lost :-[
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Polaris CAN NOT BE SEEN from points SOUTH of the EQUATOR!!!
Do you have proof for this presumption? Can you back up your claim with observations?
In his excursions, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reports that on the 23rd of January 1862 the Pole Star was seen from a part of the earth 23 1/2 degrees beyond the equator.
Unless you have anything more than a frivolous Round Earth model, I'm more inclined to believe personal observation and statements from a man who has spent his life studying the shape of the earth.
You know this statement disporves the fe right?
Ok here is the math on how this disporves the fe.
To say he could see the north star means he could see for 90+23 degress so 113 degrees. That means I better be able to see the sky up to 113 degrees too. So that means that I can see to about 63 degrees past the north pole. so to 27 degrees north on the other side. Just shy of The tropic of cancer. So if I can see a star that far away I better be able to see the sun as in millions of times brighter. So therefore I would be able to see the sun for 24 hours at the June solstice. Which I cant. And I'm down here at around 40 degrees so people further north would be able to see the sun even longer.
Since I cant see the sun I know Rowbotham is lying. If he lied about this he probably lied about much more. Thats why no one can do his experiments. So this in turn disproves the Fe.
Sorry, I'm lost :-[
I think he needs a picture.
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Its simple. Tom is saying a person can see 113 degrees of latitude. So I should be able to see the same. Which makes me able to see the sun on the other side of the earth at the June solstice. But I can't so Rowbotham is lying.
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It doesn't contradict FE in the least.
If you guys had actually read Earth Not a Globe, you would have noticed that the North Star is at an altitude much higher than the sun.
Of course it would disappear at a greater distance.
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Buttttt the sun has to be 55,000 km away to be within 5 degrees of the horizon....
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It doesn't contradict FE in the least.
If you guys had actually read Earth Not a Globe, you would have noticed that the North Star is at an altitude much higher than the sun.
Of course it would disappear at a greater distance.
Which according to your blue air theory, the light would be even less visible. The sun is so much brighter it could easily over come the 1000 mile difference.
Not to mention I used 40 degrees latitude for my calcs, people in the north would be able to see even further
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In his excursions, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reports that on the 23rd of January 1862 the Pole Star was seen from a part of the earth 23 1/2 degrees beyond the equator.
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What does this beyond exaclty mean? And where was his excursion?
While posing as a scientologist poster, mattman624, Tom got chided for using the term "below the equator". Any real flat earth believer would adopt "beyond the equator". I guess he took it to heart.
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It doesn't contradict FE in the least.
If you guys had actually read Earth Not a Globe, you would have noticed that the North Star is at an altitude much higher than the sun.
Of course it would disappear at a greater distance.
According to Earth Not A Globe, rather than, you know, reality. I'll take that leap anyday. ::)
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Polaris CAN NOT BE SEEN from points SOUTH of the EQUATOR!!!
Do you have proof for this presumption? Can you back up your claim with observations?
In his excursions, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reports that on the 23rd of January 1862 the Pole Star was seen from a part of the earth 23 1/2 degrees beyond the equator.
Unless you have anything more than a frivolous Round Earth model, I'm more inclined to believe personal observation and statements from a man who has spent his life studying the shape of the earth.
You know this statement disporves the fe right?
Ok here is the math on how this disporves the fe.
To say he could see the north star means he could see for 90+23 degress so 113 degrees. That means I better be able to see the sky up to 113 degrees too. So that means that I can see to about 63 degrees past the north pole. so to 27 degrees north on the other side. Just shy of The tropic of cancer. So if I can see a star that far away I better be able to see the sun as in millions of times brighter. So therefore I would be able to see the sun for 24 hours at the June solstice. Which I cant. And I'm down here at around 40 degrees so people further north would be able to see the sun even longer.
Since I cant see the sun I know Rowbotham is lying. If he lied about this he probably lied about much more. Thats why no one can do his experiments. So this in turn disproves the Fe.
You know that your argument is based on a Round Earth, don't you? You are using this assumption to disprove another assumption about the shape of the Earth. It's like saying 'The Earth is not Flat, because it is Round'.
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You know that your argument is based on a Round Earth, don't you? You are using this assumption to disprove another assumption about the shape of the Earth. It's like saying 'The Earth is not Flat, because it is Round'.
Hmmm.........Sounds familiar..................
Q: "If you're not sure about the motive, why do you say there is a conspiracy?"
A: Well it's quite simple really; if the earth is in fact flat, then the governments must be lying when they say it isn't.
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Polaris CAN NOT BE SEEN from points SOUTH of the EQUATOR!!!
Do you have proof for this presumption? Can you back up your claim with observations?
In his excursions, Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reports that on the 23rd of January 1862 the Pole Star was seen from a part of the earth 23 1/2 degrees beyond the equator.
Unless you have anything more than a frivolous model or assumptions, I'm more inclined to believe personal observations and statements from a man who has spent his life studying the shape of the earth.
You'd think if Polaris was viewable from the Southern hemisphere one of the several billion people living down there would have noticed it by now...
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(http://beerbaron.kibblesnbits.net/SA/Macros/g1bson.jpg)