The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Q&A => Topic started by: mikanch on March 04, 2007, 04:46:53 AM

Title: private satellites
Post by: mikanch on March 04, 2007, 04:46:53 AM
what about them? are private societies ( like this one http://www.spaceimaging.com/gallery/ ) providing images from space part of the conspiracy too? so how come there's the problem of some places on earth that some satellites are not allowed to picture? conspirers fighting other conspirers?

get a life...
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: Matthais on March 04, 2007, 05:36:32 AM
satalite of love :P
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 04, 2007, 12:04:26 PM
They still say companies like Space Imaging are a conspiracy.  Even though you can see pictures they have taken and stuff.  Then they just ignore over half the argument.  Kinda like the GPS argument.  It just died because they didnt have any comebacks. 
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: Rick_James on March 05, 2007, 06:36:00 PM
They still say companies like Space Imaging are a conspiracy.  Even though you can see pictures they have taken and stuff.  Then they just ignore over half the argument.  Kinda like the GPS argument.  It just died because they didnt have any comebacks. 


Those companies are clearly part of the conspiracy - they post pictures depicting a Round Earth and claim they're for real.

It has been shown time and time again that GPS does not prove anything regarding RE theory.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 07:26:33 PM
GPS has to use satellites.  You have shown anything.  The GPS stations need an exact know position.  A GPS receiver has a built in almanac par HOWSTUFFWORKS to calculate the satellites position.  How could a GPS unit know where a plane  or a balloon is? So once again GPS requires satellites.   
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 07:42:52 PM
In the primary navigation signal, the 'orbital' information is sent in the ephemeris. 
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 07:44:44 PM
That how does a balloon floating in the wind know where it is?  Or a plane?  They cant know where they are.  Look it, the satellites are in know orbits, thus making it easy to tell where they are.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 05, 2007, 07:47:03 PM
That how does a balloon floating in the wind know where it is?  Or a plane?  They cant know where they are.  Look it, the satellites are in know orbits, thus making it easy to tell where they are.

That's why the lighter than air vehicles for GPS are geostationary.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 07:48:49 PM
Or a plane?  They cant know where they are.
Then how come when I fly, I always end up where I intended to go, if it's not possible for an aircraft to know where it is, in flight?  Do all these commercial flights make it to their destination by pure luck?
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 07:51:27 PM
Because the plane uses GPS which runs on satellites.  No need for charts anymore.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 07:57:43 PM
None of the aircraft I fly have GPS, yet I still know where I am at every point in my flight.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 08:03:09 PM
Down to the foot?
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 08:05:56 PM
Yep.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 08:07:13 PM
what do you use?
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 08:35:55 PM
VOR, DME, and NDB's.  Not to mention INS.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 08:57:40 PM
VOR, DME, and NDB's.  Not to mention INS.
None of those have a accuracy of one foot.  Not to mention the NDBs definition says its better because it follows the curvature of the Earth.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 09:10:52 PM
Neither does GPS.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 09:12:53 PM
Yeah but is around 9 feet, and it will still pick up changes that are only a foot or two.  These are much better then those instruments.   
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 09:22:29 PM
It's actually about 50 feet and upwards of 200 feet vertically.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 09:23:48 PM
It's actually about 50 feet and upwards of 200 feet vertically.

Read the box, its 3 meters.  So a little more then 9 feet. 
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 09:26:39 PM
Ephemeris errors alone will give you an error of almost 3 meters.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 09:32:58 PM
yup.  And like I said, that is way better then the instruments you use. 

So once again GPS using satellites 1 balloons and planes 0
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 11:25:10 PM
yup.  And like I said, that is way better then the instruments you use. 


Plus another 12 meters in other errors, and you are up to 50 feet.  Also, the receiver often times calculates a 'probable' area, due to sphere overlap.  This will get you even less accuracy.

Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 06, 2007, 07:28:30 AM
GPS uses satellites.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: Mr. Ireland on March 06, 2007, 09:00:36 AM
GPS uses satellites.

Didn't the last arguement about GPS with satellites or compasses end with no replies?
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 06, 2007, 09:50:35 AM
Well what usually happens is we get the same stupid straw-man argument "GPS does not require satellites". What this has to do with the fact that GPS does in fact use satellites is beyond me. I've compared it in the past to arguing against the existence of boats and planes by saying "Crossing the atlantic does not require boats and planes". I don't see many people swimming across the ocean though.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 06, 2007, 10:11:22 AM
yup.  And like I said, that is way better then the instruments you use. 


Plus another 12 meters in other errors, and you are up to 50 feet.  Also, the receiver often times calculates a 'probable' area, due to sphere overlap.  This will get you even less accuracy.



Nope, multiple satellites will allow the spheres to line up at one point.  The error is 3 meters on my bros unit.  Not more not less.  New receivers take into account time dilation and all that good stuff.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: Mr. Ireland on March 06, 2007, 10:44:30 AM
Well what usually happens is we get the same stupid straw-man argument "GPS does not require satellites". What this has to do with the fact that GPS does in fact use satellites is beyond me. I've compared it in the past to arguing against the existence of boats and planes by saying "Crossing the atlantic does not require boats and planes". I don't see many people swimming across the ocean though.

Nice comparison.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 12:18:01 PM
Nope, multiple satellites will allow the spheres to line up at one point.  The error is 3 meters on my bros unit.  Not more not less.  New receivers take into account time dilation and all that good stuff.
You obviously don't understand how integrated systems work.  You don't just have an ephemeris error and that's it.  You also have a clock error, a multipath error, calculation error, and atmospheric errors.  Due to the uncertainty in the calculation, the receiver often won't have spheres that align at only one point, therefore, the unit must calculate a numerically probable location.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: astronomy101 on March 06, 2007, 12:29:19 PM
Nope, multiple satellites will allow the spheres to line up at one point.  The error is 3 meters on my bros unit.  Not more not less.  New receivers take into account time dilation and all that good stuff.
You obviously don't understand how integrated systems work.  You don't just have an ephemeris error and that's it.  You also have a clock error, a multipath error, calculation error, and atmospheric errors.  Due to the uncertainty in the calculation, the receiver often won't have spheres that align at only one point, therefore, the unit must calculate a numerically probable location.

Good Job, :o
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 12:32:28 PM
Well what usually happens is we get the same stupid straw-man argument "GPS does not require satellites". What this has to do with the fact that GPS does in fact use satellites is beyond me. I've compared it in the past to arguing against the existence of boats and planes by saying "Crossing the atlantic does not require boats and planes". I don't see many people swimming across the ocean though.
Actually, it's more like someone saying, "How can you possibly cross the atlantic without a boat or a plane?"  Well, you can swim it.  Having a boat or a plane is not required to cross the atlantic.  Would it make it easier?  Sure, but it's not required.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: _MarquisDeSade on March 06, 2007, 12:34:36 PM
Someone should have astronomy101 deleted :-[
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 06, 2007, 01:53:18 PM
Well what usually happens is we get the same stupid straw-man argument "GPS does not require satellites". What this has to do with the fact that GPS does in fact use satellites is beyond me. I've compared it in the past to arguing against the existence of boats and planes by saying "Crossing the atlantic does not require boats and planes". I don't see many people swimming across the ocean though.
Actually, it's more like someone saying, "How can you possibly cross the atlantic without a boat or a plane?"  Well, you can swim it.  Having a boat or a plane is not required to cross the atlantic.  Would it make it easier?  Sure, but it's not required.

Actually it's more like what i said.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 06, 2007, 03:42:07 PM
Nope, multiple satellites will allow the spheres to line up at one point.  The error is 3 meters on my bros unit.  Not more not less.  New receivers take into account time dilation and all that good stuff.
You obviously don't understand how integrated systems work.  You don't just have an ephemeris error and that's it.  You also have a clock error, a multipath error, calculation error, and atmospheric errors.  Due to the uncertainty in the calculation, the receiver often won't have spheres that align at only one point, therefore, the unit must calculate a numerically probable location.

The receiver does make the calculations to line up the 4 spheres.  Like I said the accuracy of my brothers receiver is 3 meters.  Thats what it is.  Its not 3 meters plus other error.  All error is accounted for. 

You cannot compare swimming across a the ocean to a GPS clock.  You are comparing apples to Oranges.

Do you agree that the G in GPS stands for global?  And if so, how is GPS global when Cellphones are not?  That act of being global means GPS has to use satellites.  The act that it doesnt take a day to figure out your spot means GPS uses satellites.     
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: MooBs on March 06, 2007, 03:46:19 PM
wut about da pplz whoz no the technology??? They can trinangle da position where da signal commeth and work out from space!! R they conspiracy toop?
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 07:45:25 PM
The receiver does make the calculations to line up the 4 spheres.  Like I said the accuracy of my brothers receiver is 3 meters.  Thats what it is.  Its not 3 meters plus other error.  All error is accounted for. 
 
You seem to be confusing 'theoretical land' with the real world.  Theoretically, if you had a perfectly clean, noiseless signal, which contained perfectly clean, noiseless data, obtained from noiseless sensors, theoretically, the GPS unit could calculate your position to three meters due to it's internal calculation and clock errors.  However, in the real world, the signal is not clean.  You can't just wave your hand and say, "all error is taken into account, it's just three meters."  There are at least 12 meters of uncertainty contained within the signal itself.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 06, 2007, 08:06:28 PM
The receiver does make the calculations to line up the 4 spheres.  Like I said the accuracy of my brothers receiver is 3 meters.  Thats what it is.  Its not 3 meters plus other error.  All error is accounted for. 
 
You seem to be confusing 'theoretical land' with the real world.  Theoretically, if you had a perfectly clean, noiseless signal, which contained perfectly clean, noiseless data, obtained from noiseless sensors, theoretically, the GPS unit could calculate your position to three meters due to it's internal calculation and clock errors.  However, in the real world, the signal is not clean.  You can't just wave your hand and say, "all error is taken into account, it's just three meters."  There are at least 12 meters of uncertainty contained within the signal itself.

I see your reading wiki.  Here is some more reading

Quote
GPS Accuracy
The accuracy of a position determined with GPS depends on the type of receiver. Most hand-held GPS units have about 10-20 meter accuracy. Other types of receivers use a method called Differential GPS (DGPS) to obtain much higher accuracy. DGPS requires an additional receiver fixed at a known location nearby. Observations made by the stationary receiver are used to correct positions recorded by the roving units, producing an accuracy greater than 1 meter.


The world is Round. 
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 06, 2007, 08:27:32 PM
Do you agree that the G in GPS stands for global?  And if so, how is GPS global when Cellphones are not?  That act of being global means GPS has to use satellites.  The act that it doesnt take a day to figure out your spot means GPS uses satellites.     

Or stratalites. 
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 06, 2007, 08:29:54 PM
Do you agree that the G in GPS stands for global?  And if so, how is GPS global when Cellphones are not?  That act of being global means GPS has to use satellites.  The act that it doesnt take a day to figure out your spot means GPS uses satellites.     

Or stratalites. 

What are those again? 
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 08:32:06 PM
The receiver does make the calculations to line up the 4 spheres.  Like I said the accuracy of my brothers receiver is 3 meters.  Thats what it is.  Its not 3 meters plus other error.  All error is accounted for. 
 
You seem to be confusing 'theoretical land' with the real world.  Theoretically, if you had a perfectly clean, noiseless signal, which contained perfectly clean, noiseless data, obtained from noiseless sensors, theoretically, the GPS unit could calculate your position to three meters due to it's internal calculation and clock errors.  However, in the real world, the signal is not clean.  You can't just wave your hand and say, "all error is taken into account, it's just three meters."  There are at least 12 meters of uncertainty contained within the signal itself.

I see your reading wiki.  Here is some more reading

Quote
GPS Accuracy
The accuracy of a position determined with GPS depends on the type of receiver. Most hand-held GPS units have about 10-20 meter accuracy. Other types of receivers use a method called Differential GPS (DGPS) to obtain much higher accuracy. DGPS requires an additional receiver fixed at a known location nearby. Observations made by the stationary receiver are used to correct positions recorded by the roving units, producing an accuracy greater than 1 meter.


The world is Round. 

Sorry, but what does that have to do with anything?
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 06, 2007, 08:35:52 PM
Read it slower.  Then try to comprehend it. Here is some more help.

Quote
GPS Accuracy
The accuracy of a position determined with GPS depends on the type of receiver. Most hand-held GPS units have about 10-20 meter accuracy. Other types of receivers use a method called Differential GPS (DGPS) to obtain much higher accuracy. DGPS requires an additional receiver fixed at a known location nearby. Observations made by the stationary receiver are used to correct positions recorded by the roving units, producing an accuracy greater than 1 meter.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 09:06:58 PM
Again, what does that have to do with anything?  How would that be any different for something on the FE?
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 06, 2007, 11:08:11 PM
Do you agree that the G in GPS stands for global?  And if so, how is GPS global when Cellphones are not?  That act of being global means GPS has to use satellites.  The act that it doesnt take a day to figure out your spot means GPS uses satellites.     

Or stratalites. 

What are those again? 

http://www.sanswire.com/stratellite.htm (http://www.sanswire.com/stratellite.htm)
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 07, 2007, 06:50:31 AM
I stopped reading here

Quote
Due to their operating altitudes of 12-13 miles from earth, as opposed to satellites that operate from a distant 22,000 miles away, Stratellites™ can provide a superior and fully reclaimable method for operating advanced wireless communications and monitoring services


Stratalites couldnt have a known posssiton as it floats around. 
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 07, 2007, 07:16:12 AM
Many of them are geostationary.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 07, 2007, 07:26:12 AM
I stopped reading here

Quote
Due to their operating altitudes of 12-13 miles from earth, as opposed to satellites that operate from a distant 22,000 miles away, Stratellites™ can provide a superior and fully reclaimable method for operating advanced wireless communications and monitoring services


Stratalites couldnt have a known posssiton as it floats around. 

I think your conclusion has nothing to do with that quote.  Why could they not have a known position?
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 07, 2007, 08:11:41 AM
Why is everyone arguing over how GPS would or wouldn't work without satellites when everyone knows it uses satellites whether it needs to or not.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: Mr. Ireland on March 07, 2007, 09:05:27 AM
Why is everyone arguing over how GPS would or wouldn't work without satellites when everyone knows it uses satellites whether it needs to or not.

Because FE'ers know it contradicts the fact that satellites don't exist in FE.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 07, 2007, 09:23:43 AM
I stopped reading here

Quote
Due to their operating altitudes of 12-13 miles from earth, as opposed to satellites that operate from a distant 22,000 miles away, Stratellites™ can provide a superior and fully reclaimable method for operating advanced wireless communications and monitoring services


Stratalites couldnt have a known posssiton as it floats around. 

I think your conclusion has nothing to do with that quote.  Why could they not have a known position?

They are floating around.  Air currents and so forth are not 100 percent predicable.  There is no way to know where a balloon is going with any useful accuracy.  Not to mention floating balloons still don’t cover the Earth to make the Global part still global.   
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 07, 2007, 10:23:52 AM
They are floating around.  Air currents and so forth are not 100 percent predicable.  There is no way to know where a balloon is going with any useful accuracy. 

I think there is little air current where there is little air. 

Not to mention floating balloons still don’t cover the Earth to make the Global part still global.   

...on the RE. 
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 07, 2007, 01:07:03 PM
Balloons float on air, where there is a balloon there is air.  Weather ballons dont just sit there, they move. 

Like i said, there is no way to use a balloon in GPS.  I would believe in GPS towers before I believed in GPS balloons.   Yet both are wrong.   

Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: edlloyd on March 07, 2007, 03:33:55 PM
They are floating around.  Air currents and so forth are not 100 percent predicable.  There is no way to know where a balloon is going with any useful accuracy. 

I think there is little air current where there is little air. 

Not to mention floating balloons still don’t cover the Earth to make the Global part still global.   

...on the RE. 

Little is some...and so that some is too much to keep a geostationary stratelite geostationary. Isn't it?

Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: TheEngineer on March 07, 2007, 05:05:53 PM
Balloons float on air, where there is a balloon there is air.  Weather ballons dont just sit there, they move. 

Like i said, there is no way to use a balloon in GPS.  I would believe in GPS towers before I believed in GPS balloons.   Yet both are wrong.   


The Japanese are doing it publicly.
Title: Re: private satellites
Post by: sokarul on March 07, 2007, 05:26:39 PM
link?