The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Q&A => Topic started by: Alegoo92 on February 24, 2007, 08:58:12 PM

Title: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Alegoo92 on February 24, 2007, 08:58:12 PM
See, as I understand it Flat Earthers have a lot of theories explaining the way our universe is devised. This is probably the saddest part of your belief: you're contradicting the most basic laws of physics, making up excuses for giant theoretical flaws, and even disputing fact that came about hundreds of years ago.

First of all, you believe that the Earth is the center of the universe??? How? A guy by the name of Galileo disproved this theory almost 400 years ago! Check out the Copernican Theory of the Universe for the geometric undeniable proof that the Earth is not the center.

Secondly, in your FE model, stars are only a few thousand miles from the Earth? So then I guess that you think suns are half-pluto sized light bulbs that only produce enough energy to power Miami for a day... Wrong. The intense heat from stars being that close to us would immediately destory everything on the planet. Plus, have you ever heard of a supernova? (I know, all government nonsense, right?) If just one star died and it was the farthest star from us in your model the Earth would be engulfed in a wave of heat thousands of degrees above the sun's normal level!

Thirdly, I have heard it stated that you do not believe in gravity. Can this be true? Gravity's precense has been known since the BC era! The reason for gravity is spinning, every atom on Earth has forms of protons, neutrons, and electrons, which all spin. This causes the phenomena of all objects pulling towards each other.
There is alot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_universal_gravitation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_universal_gravitation)) of math behind this too... Either way, if you disagree with the basic laws of gravity, you are also in opposition to all of Quantam physics and much of nuclear physical explanation as well.

Fourthly, you have said that all heavenly bodies are observed in two dimensions, and thus are two dimensional bodies. This is further from the truth than fathomable! The reason for depth (the third dimension) appearing in a picture is because of shadow and lighting.
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m28/Alegoo92/Picture1.png)
In figure A, you see an image as seen through wash lighting, where depth can be shown with shadows on and casted from the object. In space however, depth cannot be observed, because the surroundings of any celestial body are empty and cannot contain light. Without surrounding light, the body's other sides do not reflect and do not appear to exist.
In either case with this, why would so many three dimensional objects exist on our planet while everything else is flat and 2D?

Back to gravity. Your explanation for the absense of gravity is that all bodies in the universe are accelerating upward at 9.8m/s/s. I do understand where your logic was when you formulated this explanation, but it is a completely impossible theory.
When you made this upward acceleration explanation you were basing it off of the current laws of physics.
--
For example, if a man is standing on a platform, and then the platform is sent into the sky, the man will be experience the sensation of becoming heavier due to the verticle air pressure rising. The vertical air pressure (air pressure above and below him, in this case above) is only rising because the air above him is sitting still while he rushes through it.. This combination of air pressure and gravity push and pull at the man so he wiil feel a downward attraction.
--
This is the logic formulated in your 'theory'. In your theory, however, everything is moving, so no downward attraction will be experienced since nothing is sitting to push down on objects. Because of this your theory is null. Also: I don't know where you pulled your numbers from. You said all objects are accelerating at 9.8 m/s/s. Why did you use this number, since it was formulated in coherance with the G-Force Scale (1G).

This is actually a small list of fundamental flaws I found in your beliefs. I also find it very, very odd that you call each other brothers... that's quite cultish of you...

Please! Respond with retorts, comments, support, opposition, idc, but dont leave questions unanswered. And if you find that people are proving you wrong...start to try to believe and let go of what your holding on to so hard...

Alex

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: roundearthforreals on February 24, 2007, 09:57:44 PM

First of all, you believe that the Earth is the center of the universe??? How? A guy by the name of Galileo disproved this theory almost 400 years ago! Check out the Copernican Theory of the Universe for the geometric undeniable proof that the Earth is not the center.


you are ignorant. everyone knows the sun is center of the galaxy, NOT UNIVERSE. get a grip.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Eisiger on February 24, 2007, 09:59:10 PM
Did somebody say universe? Cause I think I heard somebody say universe...

UNIVERSE, UNIVERSE, UNIVERSE!
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 24, 2007, 10:08:26 PM
The reason for gravity is spinning, every atom on Earth has forms of protons, neutrons, and electrons, which all spin. This causes the phenomena of all objects pulling towards each other.
There is alot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_universal_gravitation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_universal_gravitation)) of math behind this too.
What?  Show me some math that claims this.
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For example, if a man is standing on a platform, and then the platform is sent into the sky, the man will be experience the sensation of becoming heavier due to the verticle air pressure rising.
No, he will feel heavier due to acceleration of the platform.
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This is the logic formulated in your 'theory'. In your theory, however, everything is moving, so no downward attraction will be experienced since nothing is sitting to push down on objects. Because of this your theory is null.
Your analogy is null.
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Also: I don't know where you pulled your numbers from. You said all objects are accelerating at 9.8 m/s/s. Why did you use this number, since it was formulated in coherance with the G-Force Scale (1G).
Observation of the acceleration of objects not in contact with the earth.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Alegoo92 on February 25, 2007, 03:10:51 PM
What?  Show me some math that claims this.
Read up on wikipedia, thats just one page, some are filled with probably 20 pages of math...

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No, he will feel heavier due to acceleration of the platform.
Once again you are wrong. The reason that he feels heavier is because air pushing down on him is now an extra variable to gravity pulling down on him. In space, for example, no matter how much you accelerate or how fast you move you will not feel the presence of pressure because there are no forces acting on your body.

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Your analogy is null.

No it's not. And I'm telling you now that you are wrong bout that...

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Observation of the acceleration of objects not in contact with the earth.
Show me these observations... cause I know its not some big coincidence that your numbers in your acceleration theory just happen to look as if they're borrowed from laws of gravity..

Alex
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 25, 2007, 03:34:21 PM
What?  Show me some math that claims this.
Read up on wikipedia, thats just one page, some are filled with probably 20 pages of math...
The reason for gravity is due to centripetal force? Please show me where it says this.
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In space, for example, no matter how much you accelerate or how fast you move you will not feel the presence of pressure because there are no forces acting on your body.
If you are accelerating, you are experiencing a force. This is what makes you feel heavier, not air resistance.
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Show me these observations... cause I know its not some big coincidence that your numbers in your acceleration theory just happen to look as if they're borrowed from laws of gravity..
Let go of a pen.  There you go, direct evidence of acceleration.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 25, 2007, 03:37:53 PM
In space, for example, no matter how much you accelerate or how fast you move you will not feel the presence of pressure because there are no forces acting on your body.
If you are accelerating, you are experiencing a force. This is what makes you feel heavier, not air resistance.

I actually think he's talking about air pressure, that is a bit shaky (shake - shaky, did i get that right?), but i still think that we would feel air pressure if the earth pushed us into the air atop of us.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Caturday on February 25, 2007, 03:38:34 PM
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Let go of a pen.  There you go, direct evidence of acceleration.

or gravity
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: unclegravy on February 25, 2007, 03:39:01 PM
There's evidence of acceleration, but what he's saying is, how did you guys come up with the number 9.8.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Caturday on February 25, 2007, 03:40:40 PM
i can see where it came from, gravity accelerates objects at 9.8m/s2 (1G), the earth supposedly accelerates upward that fast.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 25, 2007, 03:41:22 PM
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Let go of a pen.  There you go, direct evidence of acceleration.

or gravity

Gravity is acceleration.

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There's evidence of acceleration, but what he's saying is, how did you guys come up with the number 9.8.

I measured it in a laboratory of the college I'm attending. And I'm not bullshiting you.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 25, 2007, 03:42:22 PM
There's evidence of acceleration, but what he's saying is, how did you guys come up with the number 9.8.
a = 2d/t^2.  Simple equations of motion.  Drop an object from a known height, measure the time it takes to traverse that distance, plug in the numbers, and poof! there's your acceleration.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Caturday on February 25, 2007, 03:43:04 PM
gravity and acceleration are related, but not the same.  if a car is accelerating horizontally, is gravity causing it to accelerate?  nope.  gravity only accelerates thing when they arent touching the ground.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 25, 2007, 03:44:31 PM
gravity and acceleration are related, but not the same.  if a car is accelerating horizontally, is gravity causing it to accelerate?  nope.  gravity only accelerates thing when they arent touching the ground.
Due to relativity, it is 'gravity' causing you to accelerate, as every acceleration, is 'gravity'.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Caturday on February 25, 2007, 03:44:57 PM
oh, and how come no FE'ers have commented on the diagram of the light and sphere?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 25, 2007, 03:45:45 PM
gravity and acceleration are related, but not the same.  if a car is accelerating horizontally, is gravity causing it to accelerate?  nope.  gravity only accelerates thing when they arent touching the ground.

You are seriously not normal!

Basic logic syllogisms - Every puddle is a dog, but not every dog is a puddle.

OR

Every gravity is acceleration, but not every acceleration is gravity.

It's simple.
Title: About gravity
Post by: Alegoo92 on February 25, 2007, 04:59:51 PM
When I mentioned gravity and the flaw of your acceleration theory, is that your theory said we accelerate upwards at 9.8m/s/s.

You said up because on Earth (due to gravity), when you jump up, you come down.

You said 9.8 m/s/s because that is the power of 1G.

You said acceleration because 1G is 9.8m/s/s, which is accelerating.

BUT:... Where your theory is flawed is that in space, again, no matter how fast you accelerate you experience only weighlessness and do not feel any type of pressure. You thought that when the earth/everything else moves up fast that we will experience verticle pressure and be pushed down... but you were wrong. In a weightless environment such as space, no matter how fast earth moves, nothing is pushing down on earth or its inhabitants to make them feel the phenomena of gravity. Earth's gravitational pull is caused by earth's spinning. This is why on earth no matter which direction you are facing (north or south pole, china or america), you are always drawn back to ground.

Plus im pretty sure gravity wasnt the only thing i mentioned.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Alegoo92 on February 25, 2007, 05:00:40 PM
gravity and acceleration are related, but not the same.  if a car is accelerating horizontally, is gravity causing it to accelerate?  nope.  gravity only accelerates thing when they arent touching the ground.

You are seriously not normal!

Basic logic syllogisms - Every puddle is a dog, but not every dog is a puddle.

OR

Every gravity is acceleration, but not every acceleration is gravity.

It's simple.

Btw... poodles? not puddles, thats water... :)
Title: Re: About gravity
Post by: TheEngineer on February 25, 2007, 05:09:50 PM
When I mentioned gravity and the flaw of your acceleration theory, is that your theory said we accelerate upwards at 9.8m/s/s.

You said up because on Earth (due to gravity), when you jump up, you come down.

You said 9.8 m/s/s because that is the power of 1G.

You said acceleration because 1G is 9.8m/s/s, which is accelerating.

Um, yes.
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BUT:... Where your theory is flawed is that in space, again, no matter how fast you accelerate you experience only weighlessness and do not feel any type of pressure.
You feel a force, as you are accelerating.  If you were to stop accelerating, you would feel 'weightless'.
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You thought that when the earth/everything else moves up fast that we will experience verticle pressure and be pushed down... but you were wrong. In a weightless environment such as space, no matter how fast earth moves, nothing is pushing down on earth or its inhabitants to make them feel the phenomena of gravity.
That's just dumb.
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Earth's gravitational pull is caused by earth's spinning. This is why on earth no matter which direction you are facing (north or south pole, china or america), you are always drawn back to ground.
I'm pretty sure that centripetal force acts opposite 'gravity', so no, that is not why you are drawn back to the ground.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Eisiger on February 25, 2007, 05:23:25 PM
If this was true, wouldn't anything that fly have to continually have to force itself from the gound (birds continually flapping, planes with thusters on the bottom)? I don't know any of this shit, just throw stuff at me and I'll learn.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 25, 2007, 06:21:36 PM
If this was true, wouldn't anything that fly have to continually have to force itself from the gound (birds continually flapping, planes with thusters on the bottom)? I don't know any of this shit, just throw stuff at me and I'll learn.
Yes, it is why they have wings.
Title: Re: About gravity
Post by: Mental on February 26, 2007, 06:16:31 AM
When I mentioned gravity and the flaw of your acceleration theory, is that your theory said we accelerate upwards at 9.8m/s/s.

You said up because on Earth (due to gravity), when you jump up, you come down.

You said 9.8 m/s/s because that is the power of 1G.

You said acceleration because 1G is 9.8m/s/s, which is accelerating.

BUT:... Where your theory is flawed is that in space, again, no matter how fast you accelerate you experience only weighlessness and do not feel any type of pressure. You thought that when the earth/everything else moves up fast that we will experience verticle pressure and be pushed down... but you were wrong. In a weightless environment such as space, no matter how fast earth moves, nothing is pushing down on earth or its inhabitants to make them feel the phenomena of gravity. Earth's gravitational pull is caused by earth's spinning. This is why on earth no matter which direction you are facing (north or south pole, china or america), you are always drawn back to ground.

Plus im pretty sure gravity wasnt the only thing i mentioned.

First things first, thanks for the heads up on the poodle matter XD , a hones mistake ;) .

Secondly, gravitation is caused by the gravitational force, Fg = G* (m1*m2)/(r^2), G being the gravitational constant, gravitational force exists between every two objects in space, but, as you can see from the formula, it's decaying rapidly with the distance.

That's why you are currently experiencing Mars gravity, but it's a force of some 0.00001 N :) .

The spinning has nothing to do with gravity, gravity acts as a centripetal force when we are talking about moving in orbit, because moving in orbit is moving on a circle pattern, and to do that you need a centripetal force.

When an object accelerates, it causes an effect similar to gravity, (On earth the formula for gravity is F = m*g, whilst the formula for acceleration is F = m*a, the first formula is derived from the gravitational force formula explained above) for instance, an astronaut is sitting in his chair, and the shuttle is not moving, the astronaut is floating and feeling no "gravity" (he is feeling gravity, but it's a force of some 10^-56 N, therefore neglect able), but when the shuttle starts to accelerate (not to move, it has to accelerate), the astronaut is pushed back into his chair, an effect similar to gravity.

I hope this explains a few things :) .

Title: Re: About gravity
Post by: Alegoo92 on February 26, 2007, 01:16:55 PM
When I mentioned gravity and the flaw of your acceleration theory, is that your theory said we accelerate upwards at 9.8m/s/s.

You said up because on Earth (due to gravity), when you jump up, you come down.

You said 9.8 m/s/s because that is the power of 1G.

You said acceleration because 1G is 9.8m/s/s, which is accelerating.

Um, yes.
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BUT:... Where your theory is flawed is that in space, again, no matter how fast you accelerate you experience only weighlessness and do not feel any type of pressure.
You feel a force, as you are accelerating.  If you were to stop accelerating, you would feel 'weightless'.
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You thought that when the earth/everything else moves up fast that we will experience verticle pressure and be pushed down... but you were wrong. In a weightless environment such as space, no matter how fast earth moves, nothing is pushing down on earth or its inhabitants to make them feel the phenomena of gravity.
That's just dumb.
Quote
Earth's gravitational pull is caused by earth's spinning. This is why on earth no matter which direction you are facing (north or south pole, china or america), you are always drawn back to ground.
I'm pretty sure that centripetal force acts opposite 'gravity', so no, that is not why you are drawn back to the ground.

I'm done arguing you about acceleration in a weightless environment. You are wrong. Okay? Like I've said, an object can move the speed of light just until atoms start separating , if its in a weightless environment it will never feel an opposing force. Plus you havent cleared up wats making it accelerate... anyway.. Any force, be it gravitational, static or magnetic, can act as a centripetal force. Centripetal force in itself is not why objects are drawn back to earth... its gravity acting as one. Centripetal forces do not oppose gravity, than with your logic we would all drift off into space.

You are wrong. Get over it. The Earth is round.
Title: Re: About gravity
Post by: TheEngineer on February 26, 2007, 01:22:46 PM
I'm done arguing you about acceleration in a weightless environment. You are wrong. Okay?
Let me ask a simple question:  Do you know what Newton's second law states?
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Like I've said, an object can move the speed of light just until atoms start separating , 
Well, Einstein says you are an idiot.
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Centripetal forces do not oppose gravity, than with your logic we would all drift off into space.
What direction does centripetal force act?
Title: Re: About gravity
Post by: Mental on February 26, 2007, 01:31:15 PM
I'm done arguing you about acceleration in a weightless environment. You are wrong. Okay?
Let me ask a simple question:  Do you know what Newton's second law states?
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Like I've said, an object can move the speed of light just until atoms start separating , 
Well, Einstein says you are an idiot.
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Centripetal forces do not oppose gravity, than with your logic we would all drift off into space.
What direction does centripetal force act?

It's a normal on the vector of velocity, and it's direction is away from the moving object. Unfortunatly, centripetal force has the same direction as gravity, centrifugal has the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 26, 2007, 01:46:35 PM
I see what I did there.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Caturday on February 26, 2007, 05:40:53 PM
um.. still no FEer gonna say anything about the diagram of the light and sphere?  how it proves day and night.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on February 26, 2007, 05:51:08 PM
I don't believe in a Flat Earth but seriously this guy is stupid. Or joking. Must be one or the other.
Title: Re: About gravity
Post by: Geoff on February 26, 2007, 06:09:16 PM

Like I've said, an object can move the speed of light just until atoms start separating , if its in a weightless environment it will never feel an opposing force.

You are wrong. Get over it. The Earth is round.

You are correct, an object can move at any constant velocity and not feel any force, but if any acceleration occurs then it's environment is no longer weightless.  You seem to be thinking that gravity is the only thing that can cause weight, and you are wrong.
Title: Re: About gravity
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on February 26, 2007, 06:17:10 PM
When I mentioned gravity and the flaw of your acceleration theory, is that your theory said we accelerate upwards at 9.8m/s/s.

You said up because on Earth (due to gravity), when you jump up, you come down.

You said 9.8 m/s/s because that is the power of 1G.

You said acceleration because 1G is 9.8m/s/s, which is accelerating.



Um, yes.
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BUT:... Where your theory is flawed is that in space, again, no matter how fast you accelerate you experience only weighlessness and do not feel any type of pressure.
You feel a force, as you are accelerating.  If you were to stop accelerating, you would feel 'weightless'.
Quote
You thought that when the earth/everything else moves up fast that we will experience verticle pressure and be pushed down... but you were wrong. In a weightless environment such as space, no matter how fast earth moves, nothing is pushing down on earth or its inhabitants to make them feel the phenomena of gravity.
That's just dumb.
Quote
Earth's gravitational pull is caused by earth's spinning. This is why on earth no matter which direction you are facing (north or south pole, china or america), you are always drawn back to ground.
I'm pretty sure that centripetal force acts opposite 'gravity', so no, that is not why you are drawn back to the ground.

I'm done arguing you about acceleration in a weightless environment. You are wrong. Okay? Like I've said, an object can move the speed of light just until atoms start separating , if its in a weightless environment it will never feel an opposing force. Plus you havent cleared up wats making it accelerate... anyway.. Any force, be it gravitational, static or magnetic, can act as a centripetal force. Centripetal force in itself is not why objects are drawn back to earth... its gravity acting as one. Centripetal forces do not oppose gravity, than with your logic we would all drift off into space.

You are wrong. Get over it. The Earth is round.

Please tell me what you think the following things are...

...Gravity;
Weight;
Weightlessness;
Acceleration;
Centripetal force...

...and maybe I can start trying to explain a few things to you. Bear in mind I am a REer and I find your knowledge of phsyics akin to that of a small dog.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Rick_James on February 26, 2007, 06:56:53 PM
If this was true, wouldn't anything that fly have to continually have to force itself from the gound (birds continually flapping, planes with thusters on the bottom)? I don't know any of this shit, just throw stuff at me and I'll learn.


They would work the same in both models.
Title: Re: About gravity
Post by: TheEngineer on February 26, 2007, 07:08:22 PM
Please tell me what you think the following things are...

...Gravity;
Weight;
Weightlessness;
Acceleration;
Centripetal force...

1. Acceleration
2. Acceleration*mass
3. Acceleration without mechanical resistance or being in an inertial frame not in a gravitational field.
4. The rate of change of velocity.
5. The external force required to make a body follow a curved path at a constant speed.
Title: Re: About gravity
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on February 26, 2007, 07:11:52 PM
Please tell me what you think the following things are...

...Gravity;
Weight;
Weightlessness;
Acceleration;
Centripetal force...

1. Acceleration
2. Acceleration*mass
3. Acceleration without mechanical resistance or being in an inertial frame not in a gravitational field.
4. The rate of change of velocity.
5. The external force required to make a body follow a curved path at a constant speed.

I don't think I quoted you did I? Why would you answer my question?
Title: Re: About gravity
Post by: TheEngineer on February 26, 2007, 07:13:46 PM
Please tell me what you think the following things are...

...Gravity;
Weight;
Weightlessness;
Acceleration;
Centripetal force...

1. Acceleration
2. Acceleration*mass
3. Acceleration without mechanical resistance or being in an inertial frame not in a gravitational field.
4. The rate of change of velocity.
5. The external force required to make a body follow a curved path at a constant speed.

I don't think I quoted you did I? Why would you answer my question?
Yes you did.  However it was an embedded quote, my bad.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on February 26, 2007, 07:16:03 PM
It helped in emphasising his stupidity if I quoted everything :)
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 27, 2007, 04:02:19 AM
um.. still no FEer gonna say anything about the diagram of the light and sphere?  how it proves day and night.

I don't see anywhere in his post where he explains day and night. Besides. Day and night are explained in the FE model if you took the time to read the FAQ.
What he is trying to prove is why things look 2D in Round-Earth space. I guess. Not sure how an Object not on this planet makes a difference whether or not this planet is flat or round, though
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mr. Ireland on February 27, 2007, 05:30:56 AM
I'm not sure if this even applies, but would the FE have a terminal velocity?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 07:04:31 AM
The speed of light.  Sadly, we will never reach it...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 07:21:48 AM
Can i make a point?

Gravity is a property of mass. An undenaibale law of physics... even down to the quantum level.

there is a force of g (9.81) acting on us because of the mass of the earth... which if you do the calculation and assume the earth is spherical works out PERFECTLY.... i suppose you FE-ers see that as coincidence?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 07:23:39 AM
There is an acceleration of 9.8m/s^2, which was determined through observation.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 07:25:48 AM
BTW engineer, it says under your name

"GPS does not require satellites."

Could you please explain to me that (or post the link if you have already explained) as to how they work....
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 07:27:08 AM
They work by using very accurate clocks.  There is no part of the GPS location process that requires the transmitter to be in orbit.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 07:28:16 AM
yes, you can obtain the value 9.81 through observation AND by using newtons law of gravitation. Which fits in perfectly assuming the world is round.... another "coincidence" i suppose?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 07:29:16 AM
accurate clocks can tell you your location on earth? please do go into more detail....
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 27, 2007, 07:33:54 AM
yes, you can obtain the value 9.81 through observation AND by using newtons law of gravitation. Which fits in perfectly assuming the world is round.... another "coincidence" i suppose?
as i already said before, I did an experiment from which i could calculate earths acceleration.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 07:35:28 AM
yes, you can obtain the value 9.81 through observation AND by using newtons law of gravitation. Which fits in perfectly assuming the world is round.... another "coincidence" i suppose?
How do you think Newton's law of Gravitation was conceived?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 07:37:06 AM
An "experiment"?.... i am not denying the value of g on earth is not 9.81, but the reason why it is 9.81

Not only can it be done by observation (experiment) but by using newtons law of gravitation which assumes the world is round.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 07:40:00 AM
accurate clocks can tell you your location on earth? please do go into more detail....
By using a reference time, a receiver can calculate the distance an EM signal traveled using the time stamp embedded in the signal.  Knowing the location of the transmitter, which is also encoded in the signal, the receiver can calculate it's possible locations on a sphere whose radius is the distance the signal traveled before it reached the receiver.  Using three signals, the possible locations can be narrowed down to two, and using the earth as a fourth sphere, the location determined.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 27, 2007, 07:41:54 AM
An "experiment"?.... i am not denying the value of g on earth is not 9.81, but the reason why it is 9.81

Not only can it be done by observation (experiment) but by using newtons law of gravitation which assumes the world is round.

:D :D , what part did you not get?

i droped an object and measured how long it will take to hit the ground, then i repeated the process from a higher altitude, and then again, from the higher altitude, i used a stopping mechanism, and a clock with accuracy down to the fourth decimal spot. I observed the results, and with some calculus, came to the conclusion that the earth accelerated toward the object i dropped, with an acceleration of 9.82 m/s^2 .

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 07:46:44 AM
yeh, like i said... i am not disputing the value of g on earth.... which does vary slightly, as you found out in your experiment... for many reasons that support a round earth theory. But the fact that g= 9.81 assuming the earth is spherical.... engineer, i will get back to you with newtons law of gravitation..... and prove to you.... with maths..... the earth is spherical...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 27, 2007, 07:48:45 AM
yeh, like i said... i am not disputing the value of g on earth.... which does vary slightly, as you found out in your experiment... for many reasons that support a round earth theory. But the fact that g= 9.81 assuming the earth is spherical.... engineer, i will get back to you with newtons law of gravitation..... and prove to you.... with maths..... the earth is spherical...

Listen to me :D , i know that the earth is spherical, and i know newton's laws of gravitation, but that does not mean that the FE model of "gravity" is not possible.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 08:13:22 AM
Newtons Law of gravitation can be shown at fundemental levels and not only for earth but other smaler day to day objects, and says that


F is proportinal to M1*M2/r^2

F= gravitational force= 9.81

M1 is mass of earth
M2 is an object on the earth (i.e. a human)

and r is the distance between the centre of the earth and the person
i.e. the radius of the earth (assuming it is spherical)

therefore F on a person on a SPHERICAL earth = G*M1*M2/ r^2

G is gravitational constant

therefore: you do the maths and it works it...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 08:16:49 AM
accurate clocks can tell you your location on earth? please do go into more detail....
By using a reference time, a receiver can calculate the distance an EM signal traveled using the time stamp embedded in the signal.  Knowing the location of the transmitter, which is also encoded in the signal, the receiver can calculate it's possible locations on a sphere whose radius is the distance the signal traveled before it reached the receiver.  Using three signals, the possible locations can be narrowed down to two, and using the earth as a fourth sphere, the location determined.




ok...... but this does not explain how you get a reception from floating transmitters on ice bergs from the southpole, when you are in the middle of the sahara desert. Seeing as GPS uses microwave propagation which requires a line of sight link..... how do you get a signal?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 08:20:51 AM
No one ever said the only transmitters were floating in the ocean.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 27, 2007, 08:21:49 AM
Newtons Law of gravitation can be shown at fundemental levels and not only for earth but other smaler day to day objects, and says that


F is proportinal to M1*M2/r^2

F= gravitational force= 9.81

M1 is mass of earth
M2 is an object on the earth (i.e. a human)

and r is the distance between the centre of the earth and the person
i.e. the radius of the earth (assuming it is spherical)

therefore F on a person on a SPHERICAL earth = G*M1*M2/ r^2

G is gravitational constant

therefore: you do the maths and it works it...

9.81 is not gravitational force, it's the gravitational constant for earth, on mars, it's 7.5 or sth like that i think.

g = 9.81 N/kg OR g = 9.81 m/s^2

THAT is the same thing on round earth. It makes no difference if you say that the earth pulls things with a force proportional to it's mass via this constant, or if you say that things accelerate toward the center of the earth, producing a force proportional to it's mass via the gravity's acceleration.

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 08:24:40 AM
So where are the transmitters?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 08:25:28 AM
They can be in the atmosphere, on the ground, just about anywhere.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 08:28:42 AM
So if they are in the atmposhere how are they kept their without using some form of propulsion?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on February 27, 2007, 08:32:07 AM
lol another person pointing out how GPS needs satellites.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 08:33:03 AM
So if they are in the atmposhere how are they kept their without using some form of propulsion?
Lighter than air broadcasting platforms.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 08:37:16 AM
lighter then air braodcasting platforms? now that is going into the realm of science fiction... unless of course you have proof.... or even a fundemental explanation of how they work?

inwhich case we should see floating objects in space everyday,..
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 08:42:04 AM
Sure, do a google search on it.  Stratellites, for one.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on February 27, 2007, 08:42:42 AM
Where are all the GPS tower certified personnel who run them?  Why cant I see a floating platform?  Im starting tho think this whole site is a scam, no one actually thinks the Earth is flat they just like to argue.  I mean floating GPS platforms?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 08:44:03 AM
They are publicly being used in Korea, why don't you go over there and ask to speak with a balloon GPS tech? 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 08:46:28 AM

Back to newtons law:

F=gravitational force

F=9.81N for a mass of 1kg on the earth if you put in the values

since f=ma

therefore a=9.81/1
which is... 9.81 ms^-2

and is not constant but varies because the earth has different densities at different places affecting g, also because the earths surface is not flat so g is less as you increase altitude.

now that theory works assuming the earth is sphereical... and has a radius...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 08:47:44 AM
And if I use F=m*a and put in the values, I also get 9.81N.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 08:49:42 AM
another fundemental point..... WHY IS IT WE CAN'T SEE EVEREST? i mean it is the largest mountain in the world... and if the earth is "flat"

and also... why is there are a horizon if the earth is not curved?

I just feel FE-ers that the evidence is mounted against you... and you can't explain away everything?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 08:51:40 AM
And if I use F=m*a and put in the values, I also get 9.81N.

yeh and you should be able to the same with F= G*M1*M2/r^2 and get the same answer.....

which works assuming the earth is spherical and has a radius.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 08:52:41 AM
Mine works without assumptions and is based purely on experiments.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 08:55:41 AM
Mine works without assumptions and is based purely on experiments.

Good... then that proves newtons law is right and the earth is spherical, you can go about 2 ways to find the same answer and if they both match, then well.... something adds up.... the world is spherical...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 08:58:07 AM
Except your formula requires G, which is a constant that was made up so that the numbers would fit the data.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 09:00:12 AM
in other words

the "assumption" was that the earth was round.

Put it into the equation i.e. the earth has a radius and you get back to g = 9.81... which we know is right from experiments without assumptions.... as you said... so your experiment proves that the world is spherical....
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 09:02:38 AM
G is not made up, it is a constant found by experimental methods. G works not only for celestial bodies but for smaller day to day bodies... which was found by doing experiments with no assumptions because the masses would be easily known and the distance r easily measured.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 09:04:19 AM
G is not made up, it is a constant found by experimental methods. G works not only for celestial bodies but for smaller day to day bodies... which was found by doing experiments with no assumptions because the masses would be easily known and the distance r easily measured.
Yea, that's what I said.  They made it up so that the math fit the data.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 09:07:05 AM
G is not made up, it is a constant found by experimental methods. G works not only for celestial bodies but for smaller day to day bodies... which was found by doing experiments with no assumptions because the masses would be easily known and the distance r easily measured.
Yea, that's what I said.  They made it up so that the math fit the data.


its not made up, it is determined by experimental methods. In any law with proportionality there will always be a constant. The constant can be determined on smaller bodies by doing experiments, and as it is a constant it is the same for earth..
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 27, 2007, 09:08:13 AM
Mine works without assumptions and is based purely on experiments.

Good... then that proves newtons law is right and the earth is spherical, you can go about 2 ways to find the same answer and if they both match, then well.... something adds up.... the world is spherical...

You're blinding me with your logic.

As far as I'm concerned, you won this argument, because it looks to me as if you're just trying to provoke us.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 09:11:01 AM
i am not at all trying to provoke anyone.... i just want your opinions on evidence that supports a spherical earth theory


i mean FE-ers need to do a lot of explaining if their theories are going to stick...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 27, 2007, 09:14:10 AM
i am not at all trying to provoke anyone.... i just want your opinions on evidence that supports a spherical earth theory


i mean FE-ers need to do a lot of explaining if their theories are going to stick...

Yes, the newton's law of gravity supports the spherical earth theory.

The universal acceleration theory supports the flat earth theory.

They don't cancel themselves out, both theories are valid.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 09:16:03 AM
Universal acceleration... hmm.... but what it can't explain is why i can't see everest from my back yard with a telescope....

care to enlighten me?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 09:17:29 AM
Distance.  However, this is off topic.  Find a topic already about this and post there.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 09:19:55 AM
Afraid to go off topic?

distance??? ok lets take it down a bit, i am standing in london, why can't i see the ifle tower in paris?

Keeping in mind i have a telescope...

i mean we can see the furtherest stars...... but not something a few hundred miles away? wait how far away did you say the sun is in your theory??
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 27, 2007, 09:20:34 AM
Universal acceleration... hmm.... but what it can't explain is why i can't see everest from my back yard with a telescope....

care to enlighten me?

Yes, but first I'll point out that newton's law of gravity cannot explain that either :D .

You can't see everest because of the density of the atmosphere. The atmosphere gets thicker and thicker as you look further away, and at one point it gets too thick to look through.

That's the FE explanation.

My answer: You can't see Everest because you do not live on that part of the earth, and from, presumably, the States, you can't see Everest because of the curvature of the earth.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 09:22:21 AM
Horizon? which seems to be a costant 17 miles away or something like that also "coincidentily" ties in exactly with the curvature of a spherical earth...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 27, 2007, 09:24:57 AM
Horizon? which seems to be a costant 17 miles away or something like that also "coincidentily" ties in exactly with the curvature of a spherical earth...


At exactly 17 miles, the atmosphere is too thick to look through, the way FE explain it.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 09:26:08 AM
Universal acceleration... hmm.... but what it can't explain is why i can't see everest from my back yard with a telescope....

care to enlighten me?

Yes, but first I'll point out that newton's law of gravity cannot explain that either :D .

You can't see everest because of the density of the atmosphere. The atmosphere gets thicker and thicker as you look further away, and at one point it gets too thick to look through.

That's the FE explanation.

My answer: You can't see Everest because you do not live on that part of the earth, and from, presumably, the States, you can't see Everest because of the curvature of the earth.




newtons law of gravitation does explain why we can't see everest.... the earth is not flat. Newtons law of gravitation assumes the earth is spherical... and thus, if you are in the other side of the sphere.... you can't see it...


ALso about the atmosphere.... FE-ers believe the earth's atmosphere is more than 20 miles right? so how come we can see the sun without it being "blocked out?"

Well?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 09:29:08 AM
FE-ers i am sorry, but you havn't convinced me enough..... the earth to me remains spherical, there is just to much explaining to do on your part.....
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Dickov on February 27, 2007, 10:27:51 AM
-shydeny

This Earth is neither round nor flat. It's a square.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 02:26:49 PM
-shydeny

This Earth is neither round nor flat. It's a square.

typical, cannot form any valid arguements of your own so you seek attention by trying to be funny. The stadard is low. Really.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on February 27, 2007, 03:07:18 PM
fers just ingnore the hard questions like why you cant see the iffel tower and how you weigh less on Mt Everest then you do on a beach. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: bassmole on February 27, 2007, 03:16:20 PM
I'm interested as to how two orbs when hung side by side will pull towards each other if there is no such thang as gravity in the FE theory.

Also, if the earth is moving upwards at 9.81ms, and you believe in Newtons laws of physics, why when i throw a ball upwards at a greater velocity than 9.81ms does it not appear to "float" in mid-air?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on February 27, 2007, 03:22:13 PM
I'm interested as to how two orbs when hung side by side will pull towards each other if there is no such thang as gravity in the FE theory.

Also, if the earth is moving upwards at 9.81ms, and you believe in Newtons laws of physics, why when i throw a ball upwards at a greater velocity than 9.81ms does it not appear to "float" in mid-air?
lol they beieve the Earth is going up at 9.8m/s/s.  The Earth is going like 20 times the speed of light now according to them. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 27, 2007, 04:14:21 PM
I'm interested as to how two orbs when hung side by side will pull towards each other if there is no such thang as gravity in the FE theory.

Also, if the earth is moving upwards at 9.81ms, and you believe in Newtons laws of physics, why when i throw a ball upwards at a greater velocity than 9.81ms does it not appear to "float" in mid-air?
lol they beieve the Earth is going up at 9.8m/s/s.  The Earth is going like 20 times the speed of light now according to them. 

Lol, you don't know nothing about relativistic physics.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on February 27, 2007, 04:23:27 PM
I'm interested as to how two orbs when hung side by side will pull towards each other if there is no such thang as gravity in the FE theory.

Also, if the earth is moving upwards at 9.81ms, and you believe in Newtons laws of physics, why when i throw a ball upwards at a greater velocity than 9.81ms does it not appear to "float" in mid-air?
lol they beieve the Earth is going up at 9.8m/s/s.  The Earth is going like 20 times the speed of light now according to them. 

Lol, you don't know nothing about relativistic physics.

Lol you mean the term gamma?  1 over the square root of 1-v^2/c^2.  I know all about relativistic physics.  FEers don't. The relativistic Energy equation E=gamma m c^2 leads to the Earth requiring huge amounts for energy that comes from where?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: MooBs on February 27, 2007, 04:24:16 PM
I'm interested as to how two orbs when hung side by side will pull towards each other if there is no such thang as gravity in the FE theory.

Also, if the earth is moving upwards at 9.81ms, and you believe in Newtons laws of physics, why when i throw a ball upwards at a greater velocity than 9.81ms does it not appear to "float" in mid-air?
lol they beieve the Earth is going up at 9.8m/s/s.  The Earth is going like 20 times the speed of light now according to them. 

Lol, you don't know nothing about relativistic physics.

Lol you mean the term gamma?  1 over the square root of 1-v^2/c^2.  I know all about relativistic physics.  FEers don't. The relativistic Energy equation E=gamma m c^2 leads to the Earth requiring huge amounts for energy that comes from where?

The MooBs
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mental on February 27, 2007, 04:30:17 PM
I'm interested as to how two orbs when hung side by side will pull towards each other if there is no such thang as gravity in the FE theory.

Also, if the earth is moving upwards at 9.81ms, and you believe in Newtons laws of physics, why when i throw a ball upwards at a greater velocity than 9.81ms does it not appear to "float" in mid-air?
lol they beieve the Earth is going up at 9.8m/s/s.  The Earth is going like 20 times the speed of light now according to them. 

Lol, you don't know nothing about relativistic physics.

Lol you mean the term gamma?  1 over the square root of 1-v^2/c^2.  I know all about relativistic physics.  FEers don't. The relativistic Energy equation E=gamma m c^2 leads to the Earth requiring huge amounts for energy that comes from where?

Hmm, well, it looks like you do know something about relativistic physics, why did you spill out such a nonsense a few posts ago? In my opinion, the FE'ers don't know where does that energy come from, but they don't care. BTW, you could've also asked where does the Force that accelerates the universe come from, but you didn't, how come?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on February 27, 2007, 04:34:09 PM
The big bang .  Theres very little force acting to slow us down.     
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 05:07:26 PM
  I know all about relativistic physics. 
Really?  Then how can you think that the earth is going faster than light?  Please show the math you used to come to this conclusion.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 05:08:15 PM
The big bang .  Theres very little force acting to slow us down.     
Do you people not know that there is a difference between acceleration and velocity?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on February 27, 2007, 05:10:25 PM
  I know all about relativistic physics. 
Really?  Then how can you think that the earth is going faster than light?  Please show the math you used to come to this conclusion.
Did you even read?  It was a joke.  Since you are postign please go answer all my other questions.  You know the red shift thread and the GPS questions. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 05:12:11 PM
So...you don't know about relativity.

Gotcha.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on February 27, 2007, 05:12:43 PM
I cringe everytime he says "gotcha".
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 05:18:03 PM
I cringe everytime he says "gotcha".
It's fun to watch RE'ers resign to the fact that they have no idea what they are talking about.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on February 27, 2007, 05:19:05 PM
Well it's a good job you have fun doing that because you and the rest certainly have no joy in defending FE to RErs who do know what they're talking about.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on February 27, 2007, 05:25:54 PM
So...you don't know about relativity.

Gotcha.
So you can't read.  Once again I know all about relativity.  I have already stated anything with mass cannot go the speed of light, way before I posted in this thread.   
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on February 27, 2007, 05:28:04 PM
I cringe everytime he says "gotcha".

Funny, it gives me a little tingle of joy.   :D
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 06:04:19 PM
lol they beieve the Earth is going up at 9.8m/s/s.  The Earth is going like 20 times the speed of light now according to them. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on February 27, 2007, 06:06:47 PM

Lol you mean the term gamma?  1 over the square root of 1-v^2/c^2.  I know all about relativistic physics.  FEers don't. The relativistic Energy equation E=gamma m c^2 leads to the Earth requiring huge amounts for energy that comes from where?

I am waiting for the other threads to be answered. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 06:49:47 PM
Why is it i cannot get any comprehensive answers from any FE-ers about pretty much anything?

you say how RE's don't have any idea what they are talking about, but do you? don't you think it is a little far fetched to say what we call gravity is the earth accelerating upwards constantly?

If the earth does continue accelerating at 9.81 upwards

Eventually, we will reach the speed of light.. which....oops, is apparently not possible relavtive to anything.

And also could you please explain to me in the eyes of an FE-er why the value of g on earth 9.81 varies depending on your location of the earth, mainly to do with height? which is a fact and can be determined by experimental methods with no assumptions.

The RE-ers theory is that you are further away from what can be considered as the centre of mass of the earth, so the force is not as strong. Which i hope you FE-ers woul appreciete to make sense?

SO how do you plan to explain your way out of that one FE-ers if according to you the earth is "accelerating at a constant 9.81 m/s^2"????
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 06:56:31 PM
Why is it i cannot get any comprehensive answers from any FE-ers about pretty much anything?

you say how RE's don't have any idea what they are talking about, but do you? don't you think it is a little far fetched to say what we call gravity is the earth accelerating upwards constantly?

If the earth does continue accelerating at 9.81 upwards

Eventually, we will reach the speed of light.. which....oops, is apparently not possible relavtive to anything.

You are right, it's not possible to reach the speed of light.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Rick_James on February 27, 2007, 11:27:02 PM
Why is it i cannot get any comprehensive answers from any FE-ers about pretty much anything?

you say how RE's don't have any idea what they are talking about, but do you? don't you think it is a little far fetched to say what we call gravity is the earth accelerating upwards constantly?

If the earth does continue accelerating at 9.81 upwards

Eventually, we will reach the speed of light.. which....oops, is apparently not possible relavtive to anything.

And also could you please explain to me in the eyes of an FE-er why the value of g on earth 9.81 varies depending on your location of the earth, mainly to do with height? which is a fact and can be determined by experimental methods with no assumptions.

The RE-ers theory is that you are further away from what can be considered as the centre of mass of the earth, so the force is not as strong. Which i hope you FE-ers woul appreciete to make sense?

SO how do you plan to explain your way out of that one FE-ers if according to you the earth is "accelerating at a constant 9.81 m/s^2"????


WHy did you choose to post multiple questions in the same thread? Clearly you just picked a thread and started posting. Had you bothered to do a search, you would have found (believe it or not) pre-existing conversations about every question you just asked. Perhaps you may find them a little more "comprehensive".
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 27, 2007, 11:58:49 PM
Becuase FE-ers refuse to answer my questions....  They choose not to answer them, because they can't.

Can you answer them sir? all i want is an answer.... to the most basic of questions.... search function... haha, i don;t fancy to much looking through years of posting.... when i can shape the question i want and ask it now.....


BUT WAIT.... FE-ers choose not to answer them...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 27, 2007, 11:59:46 PM
I did.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on February 28, 2007, 12:27:27 AM
Becuase FE-ers refuse to answer my questions....  They choose not to answer them, because they can't.

Can you answer them sir? all i want is an answer.... to the most basic of questions.... search function... haha, i don;t fancy to much looking through years of posting.... when i can shape the question i want and ask it now.....


BUT WAIT.... FE-ers choose not to answer them...

You get few answers because no one likes to answer the same questions over and over again. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: bassmole on February 28, 2007, 12:28:48 AM
I'm interested as to how two orbs when hung side by side will pull towards each other if there is no such thang as gravity in the FE theory.

Please answer my question
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Nurev on February 28, 2007, 01:47:45 AM
Quote
You are right, it's not possible to reach the speed of light.

Ok to prove everything to you.

speed of light = 3*10^8m/s
acceleration= 9.81m/s^2

using the equation v=u +at
v= final velocity
u= initial velocity (taking u=0)
a= acceleration
t= time

3*10^8= 0 + 9.81t
3*10^8=9.81t
t=3*10^8 divide by 9.81
t=30581039.755351681957186544342508 seconds

=509683.99592252803261977573904179 minutes

=8494.7332653754672103295956506966 hours

=353.94721939064446709706648544569 days

=0.96971840928943689615634653546764 years

by calculation we should reach speed of light in less than a year.  And we have been living on this planet for ages. So by right we should have gone past the speed of light and you yourself said that it isn't possible.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 28, 2007, 01:48:31 AM
I am sorry where is the answer to my question? I don't see it?

Can you please tell me why g on earth, value around 9.81 varies depending upon height?

WHERE HERE HAS THIS BEEN ANSWERED?

NOT ONLY THIS BUT LIKE A HUNDRED OTHER QUESTIONS YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER?

I WONDER WHY?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 02:26:21 AM
Lucky,

your answer is in the FAQ. that thing at the top of the thread selection page that says "READ ME FIRST."

... Really.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 28, 2007, 03:35:02 AM
REALLY?


for your information solace, i have read the FAQ.

and no where does it explain why g varies at differnet points of the earth.

So would you like to be so kind and explain to me why?


No? i didn't think so..
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 28, 2007, 04:53:13 AM
Wow Solace.... suddenly your not so loud now are you?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 28, 2007, 04:57:33 AM

using the equation v=u +at

Your equation is wrong.

You need the relativistic one.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 28, 2007, 05:05:34 AM
Engineer please shed some light on my question... i am dying for an answer....
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 06:23:49 AM
Wow Solace.... suddenly your not so loud now are you?

"Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?"

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull."


Ouch. Guess I don't need to be loud to be right, Do I?
Your reading skills impress me. No, really, they do.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: ChaosRequiem on February 28, 2007, 06:38:56 AM
It also says this:

Q:  Follow-up to previous question:  How is it that the Earth does not have a gravitational pull, but stars and the moon do?

A:  This argument is a non sequitur.  You might as well ask, "How is it that snakes do not have legs, but dogs and cats do?"  Snakes are not dogs or cats.  The Earth is not a star or the moon.  It doesn't follow that each must have exactly the properties of the others, and no more.

Pure BS, and nothing else, as that defies relativity completely, and your acceleration model requires it.

Fail.

Please try again.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 28, 2007, 06:39:48 AM
REALLY?


for your information solace, i have read the FAQ.

and no where does it explain why g varies at differnet points of the earth.

So would you like to be so kind and explain to me why?


No? i didn't think so..


Where there does it say altitude?

Yes solace..... VERY IMPRESSIVE READING SKILLS YOU HAVE!!!        

Because g does not only vary with altitude but your position on earth, due to the fact that the world is roughly a sphere but flattened at the poles. SO if you are closer to the centre of the earth i.e. at the poles as opposed to the equator you weight more.

As i have asked now, for what? the 4th time is it?

EXPLAIN
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on February 28, 2007, 06:45:21 AM
Wow Solace.... suddenly your not so loud now are you?

"Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?"

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull."


Ouch. Guess I don't need to be loud to be right, Do I?
Your reading skills impress me. No, really, they do.

The real answer is due to the graitational constant equation.
Fgravity=GMaMb/r^2. 
Gravity on MT Everest is less because the radius is bigger.  Thats why you weigh less not because the stars which are 1000's of lightyears away.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 06:49:44 AM
REALLY?


for your information solace, i have read the FAQ.

and no where does it explain why g varies at differnet points of the earth.

So would you like to be so kind and explain to me why?


No? i didn't think so..


Where there does it say altitude?

Yes solace..... VERY IMPRESSIVE READING SKILLS YOU HAVE!!!       

Because g does not only vary with altitude but your position on earth, due to the fact that the world is roughly a sphere but flattened at the poles. SO if you are closer to the centre of the earth i.e. at the poles as opposed to the equator you weight more.

As i have asked now, for what? the 4th time is it?

EXPLAIN

Ill quote you from your post, above that.
I am sorry where is the answer to my question? I don't see it?

Can you please tell me why g on earth, value around 9.81 varies depending upon height?

WHERE HERE HAS THIS BEEN ANSWERED?

NOT ONLY THIS BUT LIKE A HUNDRED OTHER QUESTIONS YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER?

I WONDER WHY?

I increased the size to show you where you DID include height in your question.  :'(
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: ChaosRequiem on February 28, 2007, 06:54:03 AM
I'd still like you to answer what I asked.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 06:57:04 AM
Wow Solace.... suddenly your not so loud now are you?

"Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?"

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull."


Ouch. Guess I don't need to be loud to be right, Do I?
Your reading skills impress me. No, really, they do.

The real answer is due to the graitational constant equation.
Fgravity=GMaMb/r^2. 
Gravity on MT Everest is less because the radius is bigger.  Thats why you weigh less not because the stars which are 1000's of lightyears away.

FE model doesnt have "Gravity". Which makes that formula sort of pointless.
May be good to note the Model your arguing against has the stars alot, alot closer then 1000's of lightyears. theres probably a thread detailing that better elsewhere.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: ChaosRequiem on February 28, 2007, 06:59:12 AM
A lot of things completely fall apart, failing gravity. Independently observed orbital systems, black holes, among others.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 28, 2007, 07:05:10 AM
Yeh, your height above the centre of the earth is relativly less if you are at the poles then at the equator.

Stars don't explain that. Because i don't think that there are a large concetration of stars directly above the north pole and your so called "icewall" that would generate this force acting against your acceleration upwards...

Even in your supposed model you have the sun no where near the ice wall or the northpole


HOWEVER the earth being spherical does explain this phenomeneom.


Please Solace do go on...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on February 28, 2007, 07:10:49 AM
Wow Solace.... suddenly your not so loud now are you?

"Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?"

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull."


Ouch. Guess I don't need to be loud to be right, Do I?
Your reading skills impress me. No, really, they do.

The real answer is due to the graitational constant equation.
Fgravity=GMaMb/r^2. 
Gravity on MT Everest is less because the radius is bigger.  Thats why you weigh less not because the stars which are 1000's of lightyears away.

FE model doesnt have "Gravity". Which makes that formula sort of pointless.May be good to note the Model your arguing against has the stars alot, alot closer then 1000's of lightyears. theres probably a thread detailing that better elsewhere.



WHAT? A CONTRADICTION?

FE-ers don't believe in gravity... ERR in your FAQ gravity is mentioned several times.... ESPECIALLY when the stars gravitational pull makes you lighter if you are "higher" up...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Vauxhall the Vampire on February 28, 2007, 07:13:41 AM
Wow Solace.... suddenly your not so loud now are you?

"Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?"

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull."


Ouch. Guess I don't need to be loud to be right, Do I?
Your reading skills impress me. No, really, they do.

The real answer is due to the graitational constant equation.
Fgravity=GMaMb/r^2. 
Gravity on MT Everest is less because the radius is bigger.  Thats why you weigh less not because the stars which are 1000's of lightyears away.

FE model doesnt have "Gravity". Which makes that formula sort of pointless.May be good to note the Model your arguing against has the stars alot, alot closer then 1000's of lightyears. theres probably a thread detailing that better elsewhere.



WHAT? A CONTRADICTION?

FE-ers don't believe in gravity... ERR in your FAQ gravity is mentioned several times.... ESPECIALLY when the stars gravitational pull makes you lighter if you are "higher" up...

(http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/rockman.gif)
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 07:20:43 AM
Wow Solace.... suddenly your not so loud now are you?

"Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?"

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull."


Ouch. Guess I don't need to be loud to be right, Do I?
Your reading skills impress me. No, really, they do.

The real answer is due to the graitational constant equation.
Fgravity=GMaMb/r^2. 
Gravity on MT Everest is less because the radius is bigger.  Thats why you weigh less not because the stars which are 1000's of lightyears away.

FE model doesnt have "Gravity". Which makes that formula sort of pointless.May be good to note the Model your arguing against has the stars alot, alot closer then 1000's of lightyears. theres probably a thread detailing that better elsewhere.



WHAT? A CONTRADICTION?

FE-ers don't believe in gravity... ERR in your FAQ gravity is mentioned several times.... ESPECIALLY when the stars gravitational pull makes you lighter if you are "higher" up...

Next line in the FAQ, you supposedly read, which, Chaos quoted. =D
My arguement with you was simply your answer was in the FAQ. You said it wasn't. I Proved you wrong. You tried to dodge the fact it's in there. I proved you wrong again. Yes, in the FE model, supposedly earth doesnt have gravity. Some acceleration.
*shrug*
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on February 28, 2007, 07:35:09 AM
Wow Solace.... suddenly your not so loud now are you?

"Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?"

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull."


Ouch. Guess I don't need to be loud to be right, Do I?
Your reading skills impress me. No, really, they do.

The real answer is due to the graitational constant equation.
Fgravity=GMaMb/r^2. 
Gravity on MT Everest is less because the radius is bigger.  Thats why you weigh less not because the stars which are 1000's of lightyears away.

FE model doesnt have "Gravity". Which makes that formula sort of pointless.May be good to note the Model your arguing against has the stars alot, alot closer then 1000's of lightyears. theres probably a thread detailing that better elsewhere.



WHAT? A CONTRADICTION?

FE-ers don't believe in gravity... ERR in your FAQ gravity is mentioned several times.... ESPECIALLY when the stars gravitational pull makes you lighter if you are "higher" up...

Next line in the FAQ, you supposedly read, which, Chaos quoted. =D
My arguement with you was simply your answer was in the FAQ. You said it wasn't. I Proved you wrong. You tried to dodge the fact it's in there. I proved you wrong again. Yes, in the FE model, supposedly earth doesnt have gravity. Some acceleration.
*shrug*



WRONG AS USUAL SOLACE

you said that FE-ers don't believe in gravity, full stop. WHICH IS WRONG. Yes you were wrong. I did read in the FAQ the FE-ers theory about the earth accelerating upwards, maybe you didn't?

And if you had the mental capaity to understnd my question that is clearly NOT explained indepth enough in the FAQ, you would appreciate that the value of g is more at the north pole and the south pole. WHICH IS NOT EXPLAINED IN THE FAQ. N00B.

Now prove me wrong.
 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 07:50:06 AM
Wow Solace.... suddenly your not so loud now are you?

"Q: "Why does gravity vary with altitude?"

A: The moon and stars have a slight gravitational pull."


Ouch. Guess I don't need to be loud to be right, Do I?
Your reading skills impress me. No, really, they do.

The real answer is due to the graitational constant equation.
Fgravity=GMaMb/r^2. 
Gravity on MT Everest is less because the radius is bigger.  Thats why you weigh less not because the stars which are 1000's of lightyears away.

FE model doesnt have "Gravity". Which makes that formula sort of pointless.May be good to note the Model your arguing against has the stars alot, alot closer then 1000's of lightyears. theres probably a thread detailing that better elsewhere.



WHAT? A CONTRADICTION?

FE-ers don't believe in gravity... ERR in your FAQ gravity is mentioned several times.... ESPECIALLY when the stars gravitational pull makes you lighter if you are "higher" up...

Next line in the FAQ, you supposedly read, which, Chaos quoted. =D
My arguement with you was simply your answer was in the FAQ. You said it wasn't. I Proved you wrong. You tried to dodge the fact it's in there. I proved you wrong again. Yes, in the FE model, supposedly earth doesnt have gravity. Some acceleration.
*shrug*



WRONG AS USUAL SOLACE

you said that FE-ers don't believe in gravity, full stop. WHICH IS WRONG. Yes you were wrong. I did read in the FAQ the FE-ers theory about the earth accelerating upwards, maybe you didn't?

And if you had the mental capaity to understnd my question that is clearly NOT explained indepth enough in the FAQ, you would appreciate that the value of g is more at the north pole and the south pole. WHICH IS NOT EXPLAINED IN THE FAQ. N00B.

Now prove me wrong.
 

I've pretty much had my fun playing with you in this thread, but since you seem so serious on the matter. ill go one more lil' step.

Your question:
Can you please tell me why g on earth, value around 9.81 varies depending upon height?

FE Answer:
The Moon and the Stars have a slight gravitational pull.

What does this mean? Simple. that ~9.81 number changes, depending on height. So. Lets put your question, and rephrase it as a sentence with the FE answer

the value of "g" on earth, varies depending on height due to a slight gravitational pull from the stars and the moon.

Seems easy enough. And its covered in the FAQ!
Yes. I wasn't specific enough in an answer to say that FE-ers don't believe in gravity on Earth. That's nice. Doesn't change the fact that doesn't in anyway affect your answer.

By the way, degenerating to personal insults is usually the first way to show you're losing an arguement. You shouldn't get so worked up over this. Yes, this last line applies to both FEers and REers alike.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 28, 2007, 07:59:42 AM
I really am sorry solace, i do get a little worked up at times. But it seems you have miss-understood my question.

The value for g varies not only on altitude but your position on earth. For instance the northpole and what you would call the icewall have higher values of g. But if the earth is truely flat, then they value of g should be constant at sea level regardless of location on the earth. But it is not.

Thats what i want to know, and that is not what is explained in the FAQ
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 08:03:21 AM
It's no problem.

Ill do a few quick searches and see if I can't find you an answer.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 08:11:28 AM
got one. Hope this helps Lucky.
http://theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=1372.0
Quote
Quote
Quote from: "dgw2"
This link talks about how gravity varies from the poles to the equator. I have never been to either to prove it one way or another, but assuming it is true how does the FE model explain this? The ground cannot be moving upwards at different speeds otherwise there would be great separations of land masses over time.

http://www.seed.slb.com/qa2/FAQView.cfm?ID=991


Firstly, one of the factors in variation that your site mentions is tides.  It could be that due to the different mechanism by which tides work on the flat Earth, the effect of tides on perceived gravity is different.  For example, if one half of the disc were wobbling upwards, it would create increased gravity.

Also, it is a touchy subject relying on meausurements made at the so-called poles.  Claims that gravity was measured at the south pole are nonsense in the FE; claims of meausrements taken at the north pole, while plausible, might have been faked.

I think refutations to the FE model really need to involve measurements that people can do without leaving the temperate region of N. America, Europe, or Australia (where most of the members seem to be living).

-Erasmus

So im going to go with a mix of wobble, tides, and conspiracy.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on February 28, 2007, 08:20:24 AM
These wobbling tides seem vague at best. But the dofference between the tides and g is that g at a certan place in constant, where as the tides are not.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 08:26:32 AM
Looking at the other threads, I'm going to say that the general response  past the wobble and tides is simply "have you gone out and measured this yourself, or taken the advice of people who may, or may not, have been influenced by the conspiracy."

Without thousands of dollars in sensitive equipment and probably a couple hundred in travel costs to effective locations to get meaningful difference in measurements, I'd chalk this one up to the "theres no homegrown experiment to prove this one easily in your own back yard." too.

Can't forget, things like poles don't really exist in the same sense on a flat earth. where along the ice wall would measurements be taken in accordance to south-pole measurements on a round earth?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on February 28, 2007, 09:13:27 AM
Here you go, just one of many sources that shows gravity changing.  An Earthquake can change it apparently.
http://pda.physorg.com/lofi-news-gravity-data-grace_73836406.html (http://pda.physorg.com/lofi-news-gravity-data-grace_73836406.html)

And a SATELLITE picture of it (http://www.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/1128661fig2a.jpg)
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 09:14:50 AM
Satellites don't exist.

So, Fake.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on February 28, 2007, 09:17:26 AM
lol tell that to your internet you are using right now,  And your cell phone in your pocket, and your TV, and your GPS in your 2007 Escalade.   
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 09:23:06 AM
My internet works on cable lines. I don't even own a Cell-phone. my TV is Cable also. I wish I owned a 2007 Escalade, but sadly I don't, and GPS doesn't require satellites.

Search for pretty much every other post/thread Engineer has responded in. GPS is his favorite argument, i believe
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on February 28, 2007, 09:29:44 AM
My internet works on cable lines. I don't even own a Cell-phone. my TV is Cable also. I wish I owned a 2007 Escalade, but sadly I don't, and GPS doesn't require satellites.

Search for pretty much every other post/thread Engineer has responded in. GPS is his favorite argument, i believe

Your ISP uses satellites, as does your TV provider.  The cell phone you don’t use can worth it other countries, you telling me they have wires everywhere?  Someone can tell me data that a satellite collected and then I can go to the spot of the data and get the same results, explain.  I have been arguing with Engineer on GPS, he is losing.  He ignores many questions.  GPS uses satellites.  The satellites in orbit never stray off there known position.  There is no way to get a known position with plays and balloons and all that other stuff.
  NASA is going to launch a shuttle in sometime soon, it has been delayed though.  Go watch it. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 09:34:16 AM
My internet works on cable lines. I don't even own a Cell-phone. my TV is Cable also. I wish I owned a 2007 Escalade, but sadly I don't, and GPS doesn't require satellites.

Search for pretty much every other post/thread Engineer has responded in. GPS is his favorite argument, i believe

 Someone can tell me data that a satellite collected and then I can go to the spot of the data and get the same results, explain.

Ok. Go to the spot of the "data" in that earthquake affects gravity photo, and then come on back with your gravity readings.

i'll wait here.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on February 28, 2007, 09:38:00 AM
I live here in Colorado so I cant.  Heres some more pictures are they all fake?http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Observatory/  (http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Observatory/)

And all these from a private company? http://www.spaceimaging.com/gallery/default.htm (http://www.spaceimaging.com/gallery/default.htm)

How do they take pictures of Area 51 and over countries that hate us? Fly a plane?  Just keep dreaming a plane can fly that high.   
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 09:43:58 AM
High altitude balloon could.
yes. they're fake.

And, why cant you go to that satellite picture location and take the same readings? or are you just nervous you wont get the same results as displayed in that picture?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on February 28, 2007, 09:46:41 AM
High altitude balloon could.
yes. they're fake.

And, why cant you go to that satellite picture location and take the same readings? or are you just nervous you wont get the same results as displayed in that picture?

I can because I’m in school right now.  Someone else could minus the fact that that picture is from 2004. I can go and compare data of new pictures.  Like those satellite that look for forest fires in places were none is even close too. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Solace on February 28, 2007, 09:48:32 AM
High altitude balloon could.
yes. they're fake.

And, why cant you go to that satellite picture location and take the same readings? or are you just nervous you wont get the same results as displayed in that picture?

I can because I’m in school right now.  Someone else could minus the fact that that picture is from 2004. I can go and compare data of new pictures.  Like those satellite that look for forest fires in places were none is even close too. 

So you can't do what you said you could. 'kay.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on February 28, 2007, 09:53:21 AM
Your right, I cant travel back in time.  If I could I could go there and detect the changed gravity. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Rick_James on February 28, 2007, 02:12:45 PM
lol tell that to your internet you are using right now,  And your cell phone in your pocket, and your TV, and your GPS in your 2007 Escalade.   


None of those thing require sattelites on FE.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on February 28, 2007, 05:59:18 PM
  I have been arguing with Engineer on GPS, he is losing.

I must have missed that.  Perhaps you can remind me of what thread that's in.


BTW, that satellite 'picture' of gravity is nothing of the kind.  It is a false color representation of data collected by 'satellites' on the density of the earth's crust.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 01:24:26 AM

So assuming that the value of g at the north and southpole is less than at the equator at sea level. You are still sure that the rocking motion causing the tides are also linked to that of the change in gravity at the diffeent locations?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Rick_James on March 01, 2007, 01:30:07 AM
(http://www.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/1128661fig2a.jpg)


Is it just me, or does that black spot seem to grow larger if you look around the picture then back at it? (like those email optical illusions)
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 01:30:37 AM

And on the subject of GPS, i remember earlier engineer you said about lighter then air transievers as to how we can propagate information, that would have the same purpose as a satellite, to relay information.

But to do this and cover the whole world would require a whole network of these lighter than air transievers. Does such a network exist?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Rick_James on March 01, 2007, 01:32:24 AM
Possibly - but on FE, large radio towers could also contribute well.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Theearthisafreakingsphere on March 01, 2007, 02:14:48 AM
Erm.. do all FE-ers use 'conspiracy' as a result of being unable to answer questions with definitive and evidencial theory?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Theearthisafreakingsphere on March 01, 2007, 02:24:30 AM
FE-ers say that the earth, sun, moon etc. are accelerating upwards at 9.81m/s^2; the moon and sun have gravititional pulls whereas the earth does not. If this is so then wouldn't the 'flat earth' eventually hit the sun or moon due the its diagonal motion- gravitional pull from the sun and moon and its apparent acceleration upward?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Rick_James on March 01, 2007, 02:57:20 AM
Erm.. do all FE-ers use 'conspiracy' as a result of being unable to answer questions with definitive and evidencial theory?

Where has that been claimed in this thread?  :-\
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 04:24:19 AM
FE-ers say that the earth, sun, moon etc. are accelerating upwards at 9.81m/s^2; the moon and sun have gravititional pulls whereas the earth does not. If this is so then wouldn't the 'flat earth' eventually hit the sun or moon due the its diagonal motion- gravitional pull from the sun and moon and its apparent acceleration upward?


An interesting theory, so you are saying that the stars pull the earth upwards slightly faster than 9.8 m/s^2 because of the gravitational attraction between, so we are accelerating slightly faster than the sun and moon??? So eventually we will crash into them?

But in the FAQ it says the earth does not generate its own gravity, and an FE-er would probably argue that it would be uneffected by the stars gravitational attraction.

But Wait. The earth does not have its own gravitational field? IS this not another vialation of a fundimental law of physics?

The earth has a mass, and gravity is a propery of all mass.

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: The Terror on March 01, 2007, 04:29:17 AM
How can the moon and the sun, which in the FE model are quite small, generate gravity, where the earth, which is massively bigger than them, doesn't?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 04:34:32 AM
Yeh, they say something about that in the FAQ, and i quote:

Q:  Follow-up to previous question:  How is it that the Earth does not have a gravitational pull, but stars and the moon do?

A:  This argument is a non sequitur.  You might as well ask, "How is it that snakes do not have legs, but dogs and cats do?"  Snakes are not dogs or cats.  The Earth is not a star or the moon.  It doesn't follow that each must have exactly the properties of the others, and no more.



Which violates a very fundimental law of physics. That every mass produces gravity.

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: The Terror on March 01, 2007, 04:37:14 AM
They seem to be saying "the universe doesn't make sense, which means we're right and you're wrong"
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 06:48:32 AM

But really, RE-ers can hardly say they understand the complete workings of the universe. It just seems to me that they can however explain a lot more with more consistant answers that all tie in with each other and make sense in the context of each other.

If this is not true then FE-ers please tell me how the earth does not have its own gravity? The earth obviously has a mass, therefore it MUST have its own gravity.

It is the a FUNDIMENTAL LAW OF PHYSICS.

If this is wrong we might aswell start all scientific theories from the stoneage. Seeing as almost everything in modern science is based on this.


Well can any FE-er help me out?

Really i want to believe the earth is flat.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 08:15:58 AM
Can i get an answer FE-ers? or is this beyond you? Proof that at at least some of your theory is wrong?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: akira on March 01, 2007, 08:25:40 AM
they'll just say "its already asked on other previous threads". trust me :P

for now, it's better to log out and come back after 12 hours, or else you'll just have a nonsense argument with one of the FE'ers.

YOU'RE WRONG, IM RIGHT.
IM RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG.

PS: Engineer is very stupid and brainwashed, probably from the tv show 'Teletubbies' -- when he was still in juvie.

Engineer, go back to school, or perhaps be smart enough to get in NASA and disprove what we believe in.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 08:48:17 AM

Well FE-ers are you going to take this?

Come on, you must have some come back, another theory, or conspiracy to this arguement. Well?

How can a mass not have/be effected by gravity? because that is what you are effectively saying in your FAQ.

So in theory the earth should be uneffected by a black hole? ..... according to you.

Have i understood you correctly?

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 01, 2007, 08:51:10 AM
Engineer, go back to school, or perhaps be smart enough to get in NASA and disprove what we believe in.

Based on what I have read on this forum I will say with much certainty that TheEngineer is more educated that yourself.  He has never said anything that is untrue -- at least to the best of my knowledge. 

Can i get an answer FE-ers? or is this beyond you? Proof that at at least some of your theory is wrong?
The Earth is not as massive as you think it is.  Thus, there is MUCH less acceleration due to gravity. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 03:00:10 PM

So you are telling me that the earth does produce gravity?

In this case your FAQ is wrong. Or misleading as it says:

Q: "If the Earth was indeed a flat disc, wouldn't the whole planet crunch up into itself and eventually transform into a ball?"

A1: If the Earth generated a gravitational field, yes, it would eventually happen, after a billion years maybe. FE assumes that the Earth does not generate a gravitational field. Also, I'm not sure what FE's stance on the age of the world is, but it's plausible that it's a younger estimation than the RE claim.




Q:  Follow-up to previous question:  How is it that the Earth does not have a gravitational pull, but stars and the moon do?

A:  This argument is a non sequitur.  You might as well ask, "How is it that snakes do not have legs, but dogs and cats do?"  Snakes are not dogs or cats.  The Earth is not a star or the moon.  It doesn't follow that each must have exactly the properties of the others, and no more.




Well is it wrong then?

and to Eviltoothpaste, therewill always be a force due to gravity on an object no matter how small the mass is.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 01, 2007, 03:56:21 PM
I believe the Earth does produce gravity, yes.  But that's just, like, my opinion, man. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Rick_James on March 01, 2007, 06:42:51 PM
Some members believe the Earth does not produce gravity, some believe it has a slight gravitational pull.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 06:48:05 PM
Some members believe the Earth does not produce gravity, some believe it has a slight gravitational pull.


CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN PLEASE. YOU IZ ALL NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.



HOW CAN THE EARTH HAVE NO GRAVITY, IT IS A MASS!!
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Rick_James on March 01, 2007, 06:54:15 PM
Some members believe the Earth does not produce gravity, some believe it has a slight gravitational pull.


CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN PLEASE. YOU IZ ALL NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.



HOW CAN THE EARTH HAVE NO GRAVITY, IT IS A MASS!!


I'd say it's safe to say that those who believe the Earth has no gravity probably challenge the accepted theory of gravity.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 07:00:15 PM
Some members believe the Earth does not produce gravity, some believe it has a slight gravitational pull.


CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN PLEASE. YOU IZ ALL NOT MAKE ANY SENSE.



HOW CAN THE EARTH HAVE NO GRAVITY, IT IS A MASS!!


I'd say it's safe to say that those who believe the Earth has no gravity probably challenge the accepted theory of gravity.



HEY DO YOU PLAY DOTA TOO???

And those who challenge gravity f33d.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Closso on March 01, 2007, 07:32:44 PM
The Earth would not shrivel up into a ball if it has a gravitational field because a flat earth does not have the majority of its mass located at the center, like a round Earth does (I'm fairly certain the round Earth does have most of its mass concentrated at the core, though it may be in the mantle.  Either way, its somewhat centralized, and therefore it makes sense that the mass of the Earth would scrunch up into a ball if it were not already spherical).  The mass of a flat earth is, more or less, equally spread out and therefore there is no reason for it all to be pulled to the center.  So, its perfectly reasonable for the Earth to have some gravitational field.

At least, that's how I think the FE'ers should explain it.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: astronomy101 on March 01, 2007, 07:50:29 PM
FE-ers say that the earth, sun, moon etc. are accelerating upwards at 9.81m/s^2; the moon and sun have gravititional pulls whereas the earth does not. If this is so then wouldn't the 'flat earth' eventually hit the sun or moon due the its diagonal motion- gravitional pull from the sun and moon and its apparent acceleration upward?


An interesting theory, so you are saying that the stars pull the earth upwards slightly faster than 9.8 m/s^2 because of the gravitational attraction between, so we are accelerating slightly faster than the sun and moon??? So eventually we will crash into them?

But in the FAQ it says the earth does not generate its own gravity, and an FE-er would probably argue that it would be uneffected by the stars gravitational attraction.

But Wait. The earth does not have its own gravitational field? IS this not another vialation of a fundimental law of physics?

The earth has a mass, and gravity is a propery of all mass.



Thje stars with their gravity pull the sun and the moon at the same force the moon and sun pull us thereby offsetting any net gain.
Damn fool.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 01, 2007, 11:56:19 PM
FE-ers say that the earth, sun, moon etc. are accelerating upwards at 9.81m/s^2; the moon and sun have gravititional pulls whereas the earth does not. If this is so then wouldn't the 'flat earth' eventually hit the sun or moon due the its diagonal motion- gravitional pull from the sun and moon and its apparent acceleration upward?


An interesting theory, so you are saying that the stars pull the earth upwards slightly faster than 9.8 m/s^2 because of the gravitational attraction between, so we are accelerating slightly faster than the sun and moon??? So eventually we will crash into them?

But in the FAQ it says the earth does not generate its own gravity, and an FE-er would probably argue that it would be uneffected by the stars gravitational attraction.

But Wait. The earth does not have its own gravitational field? IS this not another vialation of a fundimental law of physics?

The earth has a mass, and gravity is a propery of all mass.



Thje stars with their gravity pull the sun and the moon at the same force the moon and sun pull us thereby offsetting any net gain.
Damn fool.


Are you seriously stupid or something astronomy 101?

Firstly this is not my theory i am just commenting on it.

Secondly, based on the FE-ers theory in the FAQ it says the earth has no gravitational pull. Which if you choose to believe that you really do belong in a nursery, with astronomy101.

SO, assuming the earth does have gravity, the stars, the sun and the moon will have a gravitational force on the earth.

Now DamnFool101..... i mean astronomy101. This is where you should listen:

If the stars have a gravitational affect on the sun and the moon it will also have one on the earth.

Assuming the stars pull the earth, the moon and the sun at the same rate. There there would be no net change between the distance from the earth, the moon and the sun.

But seeing as the earth does have its own gravity, therefore would that not pull the moon and the sun towards the earth, which would mean they would eventually collide regardless of the stars???

Do you understand astronomy101 or should i draw you a nice felt tip pen colour picture, like the ones in your nursery?

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 02, 2007, 04:30:13 AM
ASTRONOMY101 WHY SUDDENLY NOT SO LOUD NOW??????


Well FE-ers i leave that question open to you all?   Can i get an answer??
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: astronomy101 on March 02, 2007, 05:28:07 AM
FE-ers say that the earth, sun, moon etc. are accelerating upwards at 9.81m/s^2; the moon and sun have gravititional pulls whereas the earth does not. If this is so then wouldn't the 'flat earth' eventually hit the sun or moon due the its diagonal motion- gravitional pull from the sun and moon and its apparent acceleration upward?

Your so smart. I wish I was a FEer so I could make up something to post again. I repeat, I usually believe the earth is a sphere.
Sayin'


An interesting theory, so you are saying that the stars pull the earth upwards slightly faster than 9.8 m/s^2 because of the gravitational attraction between, so we are accelerating slightly faster than the sun and moon??? So eventually we will crash into them?

But in the FAQ it says the earth does not generate its own gravity, and an FE-er would probably argue that it would be uneffected by the stars gravitational attraction.

But Wait. The earth does not have its own gravitational field? IS this not another vialation of a fundimental law of physics?

The earth has a mass, and gravity is a propery of all mass.



Thje stars with their gravity pull the sun and the moon at the same force the moon and sun pull us thereby offsetting any net gain.
Damn fool.


Are you seriously stupid or something astronomy 101?

Firstly this is not my theory i am just commenting on it.

Secondly, based on the FE-ers theory in the FAQ it says the earth has no gravitational pull. Which if you choose to believe that you really do belong in a nursery, with astronomy101.

SO, assuming the earth does have gravity, the stars, the sun and the moon will have a gravitational force on the earth.

Now DamnFool101..... i mean astronomy101. This is where you should listen:

If the stars have a gravitational affect on the sun and the moon it will also have one on the earth.

Assuming the stars pull the earth, the moon and the sun at the same rate. There there would be no net change between the distance from the earth, the moon and the sun.

But seeing as the earth does have its own gravity, therefore would that not pull the moon and the sun towards the earth, which would mean they would eventually collide regardless of the stars???

Do you understand astronomy101 or should i draw you a nice felt tip pen colour picture, like the ones in your nursery?


Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 02, 2007, 06:10:57 AM
whats your point?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 02, 2007, 07:09:02 AM
HELLO!! Calling all FE-ers please come and explain, i am taking your silence as a sign of defeat. Why do you refuse to explain? Can you explain?

DOES THIS PROVE YOU ARE WRONG? no?

IN THAT CASE GIVE MR AN ANSWER....
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 02, 2007, 07:39:05 AM
Here's my answer:  You are irritating to the point of contemptible silence. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Astérisque on March 02, 2007, 08:09:12 AM
If the stars have a gravitational affect on the sun and the moon it will also have one on the earth.

Assuming the stars pull the earth, the moon and the sun at the same rate. There there would be no net change between the distance from the earth, the moon and the sun.

But seeing as the earth does have its own gravity, therefore would that not pull the moon and the sun towards the earth, which would mean they would eventually collide regardless of the stars???

Do you understand astronomy101 or should i draw you a nice felt tip pen colour picture, like the ones in your nursery?

You're assuming that the earth, the sun and the moon react the same to the "pulling" of the stars. You're wrong.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 02, 2007, 08:38:07 AM
Here's my answer:  You are irritating to the point of contemptible silence. 

Here is my reply:     You cannot give me a proper answer so you are wrong to the point of laughter.

If the stars have a gravitational affect on the sun and the moon it will also have one on the earth.

Assuming the stars pull the earth, the moon and the sun at the same rate. There there would be no net change between the distance from the earth, the moon and the sun.

But seeing as the earth does have its own gravity, therefore would that not pull the moon and the sun towards the earth, which would mean they would eventually collide regardless of the stars???

Do you understand astronomy101 or should i draw you a nice felt tip pen colour picture, like the ones in your nursery?

You're assuming that the earth, the sun and the moon react the same to the "pulling" of the stars. You're wrong.

No, you see Asterisque, assuming if the moon the sun and the earth react the same to the "pulling" of the stars, YOU ARE WRONG.

Because the moon the earth and the sun will also have a pull regardless of the stars. So why has the earth not crashed into the moon or sun?

Will this is just a wild guess, but i would say because the earth is spherical.

Do ant of you FE-ers care to elaborate on that. OR  will just not reply and in your silence admit defeat?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheDoctor on March 02, 2007, 08:41:45 AM
If the stars have a gravitational affect on the sun and the moon it will also have one on the earth.

Assuming the stars pull the earth, the moon and the sun at the same rate. There there would be no net change between the distance from the earth, the moon and the sun.

But seeing as the earth does have its own gravity, therefore would that not pull the moon and the sun towards the earth, which would mean they would eventually collide regardless of the stars???

Do you understand astronomy101 or should i draw you a nice felt tip pen colour picture, like the ones in your nursery?

You're assuming that the earth, the sun and the moon react the same to the "pulling" of the stars. You're wrong.

The "Pulling", or gravity, is the same for all matter. The sun, moon, stars, and earth are all made of matter, and they all have a gravitational pull. Proof? For earth, there is gravity since we seem to "fall" towards it. The moon's gravity is seen in the ocean tides. The sun has a gravitational field since we orbit around it, and the sun also influences the tides to a degree. For the stars, look outside on a clear night and try to find the milky way "strip" of stars. Without gravity, stars would not form into galaxies. Also, look at the Andromeda galaxy, see how the star's gravity pulled it into the spiral galaxy that is so easy to spot? Oh and also, without gravity, stars, planets, everything we see would not form like it did, and the universe would be radically different.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Astérisque on March 02, 2007, 09:03:01 AM


Because the moon the earth and the sun will also have a pull regardless of the stars. So why has the earth not crashed into the moon or sun?

Will this is just a wild guess, but i would say because the earth is spherical.



You're actually saying that the Earth and the Sun are not crashing together because the Earth is "spherical" ?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Astérisque on March 02, 2007, 09:04:38 AM

The "Pulling", or gravity, is the same for all matter. The sun, moon, stars, and earth are all made of matter, and they all have a gravitational pull. Proof? For earth, there is gravity since we seem to "fall" towards it. The moon's gravity is seen in the ocean tides. The sun has a gravitational field since we orbit around it, and the sun also influences the tides to a degree. For the stars, look outside on a clear night and try to find the milky way "strip" of stars. Without gravity, stars would not form into galaxies. Also, look at the Andromeda galaxy, see how the star's gravity pulled it into the spiral galaxy that is so easy to spot? Oh and also, without gravity, stars, planets, everything we see would not form like it did, and the universe would be radically different.

No. We don't "fall" towards Earth, it's moving towards us. I understand that, in physics, it's the same and exact thing, but it's no "proof" that the Earth has a gravitational pull.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 02, 2007, 09:17:44 AM
You could easily proove that Earth had a gravitaional pull by suspending two large lumps of it on wires and measuring the distance by which they are pulled towards one another. If you did this with all known elements that occur naturally on earth then there you have your proof.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 02, 2007, 09:25:38 AM
You could easily proove that Earth had a gravitaional pull by suspending two large lumps of it on wires and measuring the distance by which they are pulled towards one another. If you did this with all known elements that occur naturally on earth then there you have your proof.

Have you read about the Tamarack Mine experiments (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/hollow/tamarack.htm)?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 02, 2007, 10:03:10 AM

The "Pulling", or gravity, is the same for all matter. The sun, moon, stars, and earth are all made of matter, and they all have a gravitational pull. Proof? For earth, there is gravity since we seem to "fall" towards it. The moon's gravity is seen in the ocean tides. The sun has a gravitational field since we orbit around it, and the sun also influences the tides to a degree. For the stars, look outside on a clear night and try to find the milky way "strip" of stars. Without gravity, stars would not form into galaxies. Also, look at the Andromeda galaxy, see how the star's gravity pulled it into the spiral galaxy that is so easy to spot? Oh and also, without gravity, stars, planets, everything we see would not form like it did, and the universe would be radically different.

No. We don't "fall" towards Earth, it's moving towards us. I understand that, in physics, it's the same and exact thing, but it's no "proof" that the Earth has a gravitational pull.



So you think the earth has no gravitational pull?

But it obviously has a mass, and therefore it has to be affected by a gravitational field. Therefore it has a gravitational pull.

This is one of the most basic laws that gravity is a property of mass. Do all FE-ers dispute this law?


Because the moon the earth and the sun will also have a pull regardless of the stars. So why has the earth not crashed into the moon or sun?

Will this is just a wild guess, but i would say because the earth is spherical.



You're actually saying that the Earth and the Sun are not crashing together because the Earth is "spherical" ?


What i am saying here is the standard model of the earth for RE-ers is spherical and in this model the earth orbits the sun. It is this orbit, which produces a centrifugal force between the earth and the sun that stops the earth crashing into the sun and the centripetal force stopping earth flying past the sun.

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Astérisque on March 02, 2007, 10:10:35 AM

So you think the earth has no gravitational pull?


I think you're mistaking the upwards thrust of the Earth for a "gravitational pull".


What i am saying here is the standard model of the earth for RE-ers is spherical and in this model the earth orbits the sun. It is this orbit, which produces a centrifugal force between the earth and the sun that stops the earth crashing into the sun and the centripetal force stopping earth flying past the sun.

We agree on this, in your so-called "standard model".
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 02, 2007, 10:16:02 AM
So you are saying the earth has no gravitional pull?

Therefore the earth would have no gravity due to mass.

That would mean that the earth is completely uneffected by gravity.

As gravity is the force between two masses in the universe, the earth does not have a mass then?


Well, according to FE-ers...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: TheDoctor on March 02, 2007, 10:17:50 AM
Think that it was mentioned before, but gravity is WAY different that acceleration.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 02, 2007, 10:25:29 AM

No, i did think you were an RE-er, my explaination was for asterisque who believes the earth has no gravity due to mass. Which is absurd. I mean at least give yourself a fighting chance by saying we feel "gravity" beause the earth is accelerating upwards coupled with its gravity due to mass. That makes the net acceleration 9.81 ms^-2.

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: TheDoctor on March 02, 2007, 10:28:45 AM

No, i did think you were an RE-er, my explaination was for asterisque who believes the earth has no gravity due to mass. Which is absurd. I mean at least give yourself a fighting chance by saying we feel "gravity" beause the earth is accelerating upwards coupled with its gravity due to mass. That makes the net acceleration 9.81 ms^-2.


Yes, sorry 'bout that, thought you were quouting me there for a second, but I realize my mistake now.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: astronomy101 on March 02, 2007, 11:17:30 AM
If the stars have a gravitational affect on the sun and the moon it will also have one on the earth.

Assuming the stars pull the earth, the moon and the sun at the same rate. There there would be no net change between the distance from the earth, the moon and the sun.

But seeing as the earth does have its own gravity, therefore would that not pull the moon and the sun towards the earth, which would mean they would eventually collide regardless of the stars???

Do you understand astronomy101 or should i draw you a nice felt tip pen colour picture, like the ones in your nursery?

You're assuming that the earth, the sun and the moon react the same to the "pulling" of the stars. You're wrong.

The "Pulling", or gravity, is the same for all matter. The sun, moon, stars, and earth are all made of matter, and they all have a gravitational pull. Proof? For earth, there is gravity since we seem to "fall" towards it. The moon's gravity is seen in the ocean tides. The sun has a gravitational field since we orbit around it, and the sun also influences the tides to a degree. For the stars, look outside on a clear night and try to find the milky way "strip" of stars. Without gravity, stars would not form into galaxies. Also, look at the Andromeda galaxy, see how the star's gravity pulled it into the spiral galaxy that is so easy to spot? Oh and also, without gravity, stars, planets, everything we see would not form like it did, and the universe would be radically different.

Equivalence Principle.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 02, 2007, 01:15:00 PM

As gravity is the force between two masses in the universe...

So how does gravity influence things without mass?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheDoctor on March 02, 2007, 01:23:56 PM

As gravity is the force between two masses in the universe...

So how does gravity influence things without mass?
Gravity can bend light, like when the powerful pull of a black hole does not let even light escape. Also, the sun bends starlight, during a solar eclipse you can see how the sun's gravity bends the starlight that goes around it. The less mass an object has, the less gravity affects it.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 02, 2007, 01:53:51 PM
But lucky was claiming gravity was a force between masses. ???
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: BOGWarrior89 on March 02, 2007, 02:17:33 PM

No, i did think you were an RE-er, my explaination was for asterisque who believes the earth has no gravity due to mass. Which is absurd. I mean at least give yourself a fighting chance by saying we feel "gravity" beause the earth is accelerating upwards coupled with its gravity due to mass. That makes the net acceleration 9.81 ms^-2.

What causes gravity?  Mass?  Then why doesn't General Relativity play nicely with Quantum Mechanics?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: TheDoctor on March 02, 2007, 03:26:39 PM

No, i did think you were an RE-er, my explaination was for asterisque who believes the earth has no gravity due to mass. Which is absurd. I mean at least give yourself a fighting chance by saying we feel "gravity" beause the earth is accelerating upwards coupled with its gravity due to mass. That makes the net acceleration 9.81 ms^-2.

What causes gravity?  Mass?  Then why doesn't General Relativity play nicely with Quantum Mechanics?
Quantum mechanics deals with really small particles, smaller than an atom, quarks. General relativity deals with big things, like planets and galaxies. It's hard to put these two theories together, since the small and large world are radically different. The subatomic world is random and chaotic, while the large world is calm and predictable. For example, a quark has a 2/5 chance to be HERE, a 1/9 chance to be THERE, a 1/10000 chance to be NEAR and THERE at the same time, and so on, very chaotic, literraly impossible to predict. Planets and stars are not like that, they are easily predicable. Jupiter can only be in one place, not THERE and HERE
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 02, 2007, 03:33:17 PM
Actually, Jupiter can be everywhere at once.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: BOGWarrior89 on March 02, 2007, 04:09:10 PM

No, i did think you were an RE-er, my explaination was for asterisque who believes the earth has no gravity due to mass. Which is absurd. I mean at least give yourself a fighting chance by saying we feel "gravity" beause the earth is accelerating upwards coupled with its gravity due to mass. That makes the net acceleration 9.81 ms^-2.

What causes gravity?  Mass?  Then why doesn't General Relativity play nicely with Quantum Mechanics?
Quantum mechanics deals with really small particles, smaller than an atom, quarks. General relativity deals with big things, like planets and galaxies. It's hard to put these two theories together, since the small and large world are radically different. The subatomic world is random and chaotic, while the large world is calm and predictable. For example, a quark has a 2/5 chance to be HERE, a 1/9 chance to be THERE, a 1/10000 chance to be NEAR and THERE at the same time, and so on, very chaotic, literraly impossible to predict. Planets and stars are not like that, they are easily predicable. Jupiter can only be in one place, not THERE and HERE

That's all well and good, but what about black holes?  Oops!
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 02, 2007, 04:12:13 PM
^and galactic rotation and distribution?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: TheDoctor on March 02, 2007, 04:31:58 PM

No, i did think you were an RE-er, my explaination was for asterisque who believes the earth has no gravity due to mass. Which is absurd. I mean at least give yourself a fighting chance by saying we feel "gravity" beause the earth is accelerating upwards coupled with its gravity due to mass. That makes the net acceleration 9.81 ms^-2.

What causes gravity?  Mass?  Then why doesn't General Relativity play nicely with Quantum Mechanics?
Quantum mechanics deals with really small particles, smaller than an atom, quarks. General relativity deals with big things, like planets and galaxies. It's hard to put these two theories together, since the small and large world are radically different. The subatomic world is random and chaotic, while the large world is calm and predictable. For example, a quark has a 2/5 chance to be HERE, a 1/9 chance to be THERE, a 1/10000 chance to be NEAR and THERE at the same time, and so on, very chaotic, literraly impossible to predict. Planets and stars are not like that, they are easily predicable. Jupiter can only be in one place, not THERE and HERE

That's all well and good, but what about black holes?  Oops!
Oops? Why oops? Because I didnt mention black holes? Wows, not mentioning black holes cracked the entire round earth theory to pieces, o noes!
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Wolfwood on March 02, 2007, 06:16:14 PM
Once again you are wrong. The reason that he feels heavier is because air pushing down on him is now an extra variable to gravity pulling down on him. In space, for example, no matter how much you accelerate or how fast you move you will not feel the presence of pressure because there are no forces acting on your body.

I'm sorry but you are a fucking idiot. Peter Griffon looks like a genius next to you!

IF your statement was true then you would NOT feel a gravitational pull backwards while accelerating in a fucking car.

BUT you would feel a gravitational pull while traveling at a constant speed in a fucking motorcycle.

Why? Because the car isolates the passengers from the air outside so you have no air pressure against you while the motorcyclist is subjected to constant air pressure.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Wolfwood on March 02, 2007, 06:19:52 PM

No, i did think you were an RE-er, my explaination was for asterisque who believes the earth has no gravity due to mass. Which is absurd. I mean at least give yourself a fighting chance by saying we feel "gravity" beause the earth is accelerating upwards coupled with its gravity due to mass. That makes the net acceleration 9.81 ms^-2.

What causes gravity?  Mass?  Then why doesn't General Relativity play nicely with Quantum Mechanics?
Quantum mechanics deals with really small particles, smaller than an atom, quarks. General relativity deals with big things, like planets and galaxies. It's hard to put these two theories together, since the small and large world are radically different. The subatomic world is random and chaotic, while the large world is calm and predictable. For example, a quark has a 2/5 chance to be HERE, a 1/9 chance to be THERE, a 1/10000 chance to be NEAR and THERE at the same time, and so on, very chaotic, literraly impossible to predict. Planets and stars are not like that, they are easily predicable. Jupiter can only be in one place, not THERE and HERE

That's all well and good, but what about black holes?  Oops!

For the sake of being an idiot I have to ask...

Do you mean black holes are a singularity?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 02, 2007, 07:47:15 PM
Black holes include a singularity.
BTW, with all that complexity about quarks, probability as in previous post, together with other quantum weirdness, singularities and the like,  I think that gives FE a certain latitude in explaining things before RE physics complains about FE requiring a lot of ad hoc explanation.
Personally, I think the apparent wall of ice is a singularity at the South Pole.  If conventional physics can have wormholes and point singularities in black holes, why can't FE have a singularity too?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 02, 2007, 09:32:28 PM
Black holes include a singularity.
BTW, with all that complexity about quarks, probability as in previous post, together with other quantum weirdness, singularities and the like,  I think that gives FE a certain latitude in explaining things before RE physics complains about FE requiring a lot of ad hoc explanation.
Personally, I think the apparent wall of ice is a singularity at the South Pole.  If conventional physics can have wormholes and point singularities in black holes, why can't FE have a singularity too?


Because RE-ers usually have something called proof.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 02, 2007, 10:00:52 PM
But lucky was claiming gravity was a force between masses. ???


Gravity is a force between two point masses. That is a fundimental law of physics. Whats more, the heavier the masses the stronger the force between them.

e.g. a blackhole, which is supposed to have an enourmous gravitational pull because it is so massive.

Gravity can bend light, because it has an equivilent mass. But the equvilent mass of  photon is relatively small so it would require a large mass (blackhole) to bend light significantly.

You may question me about light having an equvilent mass, just like how a fast traveling electron can have an equivilant wavelength. If you want some sort of an explaination:

the famous "E=mc^2"                   (1)
Where

E=energy
m=mass
c=speed of light

Also the wavelength of a wave: λ= c/f                  (2)
Where

λ=wavelength
c=speed of light
f=frequency of wave


Planc's Equation E=hf                         (3)
Where

E=energy of a photon
h=planc's constant
f=frequncy of the wave       

Ok, from these 3 equations we can derive the eqivalent mass of a photon.

if    E=mc^2     (1)

then by sub-ing in (3) into (1) we get

hf=mc^2    ---(4)

Equation (2) can be rearranged so that  f=c/λ
Therefore sub that into the above equation (4).

h(c/λ)=mc^2

we can divide both sides by c to get

h/λ=mc

since momentum is mass*velocity, shown in the above equation as mc

the momentum of a photon of light = h/λ

So, if a photon of light has a momentum it must have a mass.



Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 02, 2007, 10:46:21 PM
Sorry light still doesn't have mass.  It can have momentum without mass since energy is mass.  The experiment with some type of wheel in a glass bulb will show that light is able to spin the wheel. 

The equation

E=squareroot of p^2c^2+m^2c^4   since light has energy it has momentum, m^2c^4 is zero.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 02, 2007, 10:58:55 PM
Sorry light still doesn't have mass.  It can have momentum without mass since energy is mass.  The experiment with some type of wheel in a glass bulb will show that light is able to spin the wheel. 

The equation

E=squareroot of p^2c^2+m^2c^4   since light has energy it has momentum, m^2c^4 is zero.


In modern physics it is accepted that light has particle-wave duality. Which means it is both a particle and wave depending on how you measure it.

the formula for momentum
is:     momentum = mass* velocity

if mass =0
then the momentum is also zero. It is as simple as that.

please don't try and defy the laws of maths aswell as physics.

And you are hardly being precise by saying "The experiment with some type of wheel"

Anyway, is what you are describing the proof that light has an equivalent mass?

considering the law of conservation of momentum

initial momentum = final momentum

therefore

mv=mv

mass of light * speed of light = mass of wheel * speed of wheel

which proves light needs to have an equivalent momentum.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 02, 2007, 11:01:50 PM
I never thought I would say this, but sokarul is right.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: BOGWarrior89 on March 02, 2007, 11:13:30 PM

No, i did think you were an RE-er, my explaination was for asterisque who believes the earth has no gravity due to mass. Which is absurd. I mean at least give yourself a fighting chance by saying we feel "gravity" beause the earth is accelerating upwards coupled with its gravity due to mass. That makes the net acceleration 9.81 ms^-2.

What causes gravity?  Mass?  Then why doesn't General Relativity play nicely with Quantum Mechanics?
Quantum mechanics deals with really small particles, smaller than an atom, quarks. General relativity deals with big things, like planets and galaxies. It's hard to put these two theories together, since the small and large world are radically different. The subatomic world is random and chaotic, while the large world is calm and predictable. For example, a quark has a 2/5 chance to be HERE, a 1/9 chance to be THERE, a 1/10000 chance to be NEAR and THERE at the same time, and so on, very chaotic, literraly impossible to predict. Planets and stars are not like that, they are easily predicable. Jupiter can only be in one place, not THERE and HERE

That's all well and good, but what about black holes?  Oops!
Oops? Why oops?

Because you said this:
Quantum mechanics deals with really small particles, smaller than an atom, quarks. General relativity deals with big things, like planets and galaxies.

Remember?  And, last time I checked, a "black hole" was something very tiny (Quantum Mechanics) and also very massive (General Relativity).  Since GR and QM don't play well together, there's a hole in your theory.  Hence the "Oops".
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: BOGWarrior89 on March 02, 2007, 11:20:08 PM
Sorry light still doesn't have mass.  It can have momentum without mass since energy is mass.  The experiment with some type of wheel in a glass bulb will show that light is able to spin the wheel. 

The equation

E=squareroot of p^2c^2+m^2c^4   since light has energy it has momentum, m^2c^4 is zero.


In modern physics it is accepted that light has particle-wave duality. Which means it is both a particle and wave depending on how you measure it.

the formula for momentum
is:     momentum = mass* velocity

if mass =0
then the momentum is also zero. It is as simple as that.

please don't try and defy the laws of maths aswell as physics.

And you are hardly being precise by saying "The experiment with some type of wheel"

Anyway, is what you are describing the proof that light has an equivalent mass?

considering the law of conservation of momentum

initial momentum = final momentum

therefore

mv=mv

mass of light * speed of light = mass of wheel * speed of wheel

which proves light needs to have an equivalent momentum.

Sorry for being the asshole that says, "Um ... you're wrong, and here's why", but someone has to do it.

Light has momentum, but it's not based on it's mass - if it was, then light wouldn't have momentum. 

p = E/c  (zero rest mass)
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 12:16:53 AM
Sorry you are contridicting the laws of physics. But

momentum= mass*velocity

therefore light needs to have an equivalent mass.

basically we can go on argue for this forever because even in modern physics it is still unclear the nature of light. But i still maintian that light has an equalivalent mass. Just as an electron has an equivalent wavelength. Such as when you fire an electron beam at a diffraction grating it produces bright and dark fringes that is what happens to waves because of superposition.

Regardless of light having a mass or not. How can the earth not have a mass? Because that is what FE-ers are saying when they say the earth has no gravitational pull. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Wolfwood on March 03, 2007, 12:33:11 AM
Sorry you are contridicting the laws of physics. But

momentum= mass*velocity

therefore light needs to have an equivalent mass.

basically we can go on argue for this forever because even in modern physics it is still unclear the nature of light. But i still maintian that light has an equalivalent mass. Just as an electron has an equivalent wavelength. Such as when you fire an electron beam at a diffraction grating it produces bright and dark fringes that is what happens to waves because of superposition.

Regardless of light having a mass or not. How can the earth not have a mass? Because that is what FE-ers are saying when they say the earth has no gravitational pull. 

About the only thing FE'ers have done is thrown out the mass generates gravity aspect of relativity in favor of acceleration. And I have to agree with them because of the existence of Black Holes.

And you are essentially attempting to disprove the existence of Lasers.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 03, 2007, 12:41:32 AM
I will submit that light has momentum and a relativistic mass, but zero rest mass.  This is a direct result of the general equation of energy (E2 = m2c4 + p2c2) and the observation that light travels at the speed of light (surprise!!!) thus must have zero rest mass.  So instead of:

momentum= mass*velocity
we have Energy = p[momentum] * c[speed of light] when [m]mass equals zero. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: BOGWarrior89 on March 03, 2007, 12:46:09 AM
Sorry you are contridicting the laws of physics.

Sorry, but you are showing your lack of understanding of Relativity.  Once you know Relativity, come back and see me.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 12:47:30 AM
I will submit that light has momentum and a relativistic mass, but zero rest mass.  This is a direct result of the general equation of energy (E2 = m2c4 + p2c2) and the observation that light travels at the speed of light (surprise!!!) thus must have zero rest mass.  So instead of:

momentum= mass*velocity
we have Energy = p[momentum] * c[speed of light] when [m]mass equals zero. 

Sorry you are contridicting the laws of physics. But

momentum= mass*velocity

therefore light needs to have an equivalent mass.

basically we can go on argue for this forever because even in modern physics it is still unclear the nature of light. But i still maintian that light has an equalivalent mass. Just as an electron has an equivalent wavelength. Such as when you fire an electron beam at a diffraction grating it produces bright and dark fringes that is what happens to waves because of superposition.

Regardless of light having a mass or not. How can the earth not have a mass? Because that is what FE-ers are saying when they say the earth has no gravitational pull. 

About the only thing FE'ers have done is thrown out the mass generates gravity aspect of relativity in favor of acceleration. And I have to agree with them because of the existence of Black Holes.

And you are essentially attempting to disprove the existence of Lasers.

Ok, i don't like to dwell to much in the realm of quantumn mechanics. But regardless of this.... i am still confussed as to how you think gravity is not a property of mass.

And how does the existance of blackholes disprove this. And how do lasers also disprove this? you need to explain more..

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Wolfwood on March 03, 2007, 01:00:07 AM
I will submit that light has momentum and a relativistic mass, but zero rest mass.  This is a direct result of the general equation of energy (E2 = m2c4 + p2c2) and the observation that light travels at the speed of light (surprise!!!) thus must have zero rest mass.  So instead of:

momentum= mass*velocity
we have Energy = p[momentum] * c[speed of light] when [m]mass equals zero. 

Sorry you are contridicting the laws of physics. But

momentum= mass*velocity

therefore light needs to have an equivalent mass.

basically we can go on argue for this forever because even in modern physics it is still unclear the nature of light. But i still maintian that light has an equalivalent mass. Just as an electron has an equivalent wavelength. Such as when you fire an electron beam at a diffraction grating it produces bright and dark fringes that is what happens to waves because of superposition.

Regardless of light having a mass or not. How can the earth not have a mass? Because that is what FE-ers are saying when they say the earth has no gravitational pull. 

About the only thing FE'ers have done is thrown out the mass generates gravity aspect of relativity in favor of acceleration. And I have to agree with them because of the existence of Black Holes.

And you are essentially attempting to disprove the existence of Lasers.

Ok, i don't like to dwell to much in the realm of quantumn mechanics. But regardless of this.... i am still confussed as to how you think gravity is not a property of mass.

And how does the existance of blackholes disprove this. And how do lasers also disprove this? you need to explain more..



Can you explain HOW mass generates gravity?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 01:58:19 AM
Its a law of the universe that you will just have to accept. Every mass generates its own gravity providing it is a gravitational field, i.e. in the presence of another mass.

This is accepted by modern physics, so to say this is wrong is calling einsten, newton and countless other scientists idiots.

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 03, 2007, 04:17:20 AM
Its a law of the universe that you will just have to accept.

Sounds like an assumption to me.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 04:53:40 AM
Its a law of the universe that you will just have to accept.

Sounds like an assumption to me.

This so called assumption is the basis of most modern physics.

Not only has it been used to calculate the trajectory of planets, moons and suns but it plays a role in many applications of physics. This law has been seen to be true on all levels from the atom to the galaxies. And has proved to be correct time and time again. But sure, go and dispute this and spit on the last 300 years of scientific understanding. I mean, the earth is flat after all.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 05:11:35 AM
Sorry you are contridicting the laws of physics.

Sorry, but you are showing your lack of understanding of Relativity.  Once you know Relativity, come back and see me.


Relativity? i suppose you have a degree in it. Would you be so kind to point out where i have clearly gone wrong? or where i have misunderstood something? because i can't see where i have and its not like you spelt it out.


Or heres an idea, instead of getting side tracked and trying to look for excuses to not answer me question. WHY DON'T YOU ACTUALLY ANSWER IT.


"Regardless of light having a mass or not. How can the earth not have a mass? Because that is what FE-ers are saying when they say the earth has no gravitational pull." 

i await your reply.



Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 06:59:46 AM

What silence from FE-ers???


what can i say...?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: TheDoctor on March 03, 2007, 07:32:55 AM

No, i did think you were an RE-er, my explaination was for asterisque who believes the earth has no gravity due to mass. Which is absurd. I mean at least give yourself a fighting chance by saying we feel "gravity" beause the earth is accelerating upwards coupled with its gravity due to mass. That makes the net acceleration 9.81 ms^-2.

What causes gravity?  Mass?  Then why doesn't General Relativity play nicely with Quantum Mechanics?
Quantum mechanics deals with really small particles, smaller than an atom, quarks. General relativity deals with big things, like planets and galaxies. It's hard to put these two theories together, since the small and large world are radically different. The subatomic world is random and chaotic, while the large world is calm and predictable. For example, a quark has a 2/5 chance to be HERE, a 1/9 chance to be THERE, a 1/10000 chance to be NEAR and THERE at the same time, and so on, very chaotic, literraly impossible to predict. Planets and stars are not like that, they are easily predicable. Jupiter can only be in one place, not THERE and HERE

That's all well and good, but what about black holes?  Oops!
Oops? Why oops?

Because you said this:
Quantum mechanics deals with really small particles, smaller than an atom, quarks. General relativity deals with big things, like planets and galaxies.

Remember?  And, last time I checked, a "black hole" was something very tiny (Quantum Mechanics) and also very massive (General Relativity).  Since GR and QM don't play well together, there's a hole in your theory.  Hence the "Oops".
Might as well bring up the big bang, what happened then? What about souls, sicence cant explain weathet or not we have souls, so it must be wrong! Faster than light travel! We dont know how that works, in ohter words, all science is wrong!
You know what? Science is wrong. It is not perfect. Just like Newton's theory got replaced by Einsteins, science changes. And it is still not perfect, it cnat explain black holes, or time zero, or souls, or time travel, and many, many other things. But it is still better than still believing that the earth is flat! That theory is old, and it was thrown out long ago. It's like, again, comparing Newton's gravity with Einstein's relativity. We know that Einstein has a better picture than Newton, but Einstein is still not perfect. THIS is the concep that flat-earthers can't accept, change. Science changes, it is not perfect, deal with it.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 09:03:42 AM
Silence is golden.... in the case of FE-ers anyway....
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 03, 2007, 09:45:46 AM
The RE makes an assumption of the fundamental interaction of a hypothetical fundamental particle, the FE simply does not make this assumption.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 03, 2007, 11:48:20 AM
Makes me laugh FEers always trying to be clever asking everyone to explain gravity. Well wise guys don't forget that gravity exists in FE theory too. Think about that the next time you're about to smugly ask someone to explain gravity.

The other problem is that in FE theory you have that second magical force, the UA, to contend with too. The difference is that in FE theory you're stuck with having to explain why gravity and the UA seem to be totally selective in their manifestation. Not forgetting the inconsitencies with gravity (Sun and Moon are orbiting what now?).

Good luck guys!
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 03, 2007, 12:52:59 PM
Makes me laugh FEers always trying to be clever asking everyone to explain gravity. Well wise guys don't forget that gravity exists in FE theory too. Think about that the next time you're about to smugly ask someone to explain gravity.
The only reason I ask people to explain gravity is, is because they claim that either the RE has no holes in the model, or that it can explain everything. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheDoctor on March 03, 2007, 01:50:56 PM
Makes me laugh FEers always trying to be clever asking everyone to explain gravity. Well wise guys don't forget that gravity exists in FE theory too. Think about that the next time you're about to smugly ask someone to explain gravity.
The only reason I ask people to explain gravity is, is because they claim that either the RE has no holes in the model, or that it can explain everything. 
Oh RE does have holes, just a LOT less than FE does.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 03, 2007, 02:10:31 PM
Makes me laugh FEers always trying to be clever asking everyone to explain gravity. Well wise guys don't forget that gravity exists in FE theory too. Think about that the next time you're about to smugly ask someone to explain gravity.
The only reason I ask people to explain gravity is, is because they claim that either the RE has no holes in the model, or that it can explain everything. 
Oh RE does have holes
Which is my point.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 03, 2007, 02:32:24 PM
Physics has holes. I don't see any holes in Round Earth theory though. At least not ones that are in FE theory too.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 03, 2007, 02:53:30 PM
Physics has holes. I don't see any holes in Round Earth theory though. At least not ones that are in FE theory too.
I agree. But in the curved light theory I have proposed, the same facts and same laws apply except for the local curvature close to the Earth.  So there are no holes in FE theory either, or at least no more than one more than RE theory (that I know of).
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 03, 2007, 03:05:20 PM
Its a law of the universe that you will just have to accept. Every mass generates its own gravity providing it is a gravitational field, i.e. in the presence of another mass.

This is accepted by modern physics, so to say this is wrong is calling einsten, newton and countless other scientists idiots.

Except Einstein and almost all physicists after him say that the "gravitational field" is just curvature of spacetime, which just means that paths of light (which they define as straight) can be observed to diverge close to massive objects.
My curved light theory just defines the Earth as flat and of course it then follows (to preserve all the observations and laws of physics) that light curves.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 03, 2007, 03:15:55 PM
Doesn't light bending away from Earth go against the curvature of space time theory? I mean a good source of evidence of the curvature is light being affected by large masses. Why would Earth have the opposite effect? I think this is the one major hole. It works of you just look at Earth but once you tilt your telescope to space it kind of falls apart. Well as far as I can see anyway.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 03, 2007, 03:27:37 PM
Doesn't light bending away from Earth go against the curvature of space time theory? I mean a good source of evidence of the curvature is light being affected by large masses. Why would Earth have the opposite effect? I think this is the one major hole. It works of you just look at Earth but once you tilt your telescope to space it kind of falls apart. Well as far as I can see anyway.
Good question.  To believe in FE and (most of) modern physics, you have to believe the Earth is a bit special.  Its actually OK, I think to believe in the gravity generated by flat earth of sufficient thickness to have enough mass to generate the local gravitational field - if it were a flat disk, it would have a vertical field.  All I need is an explanation of the local electromagnetic curvature.  It took about 400 years from Newton to get even Einstein's explanation of gravity, and even he got only part-way - there is still no explanation of how mass curves spacetime, and I've only spent about 3 hours on the curved theory, as opposed to an army of really smart people thinking for centuries, so please give us a bit of a break on demanding explanations.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 03, 2007, 03:37:32 PM
The gravitational field would still come from the centre even on a disk. If I'm at the edge facing the centre of the disk then there is more mass diagonally infront/downard of me than beneath me.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 03, 2007, 03:42:05 PM
The gravitational field would still come from the centre even on a disk. If I'm at the edge facing the centre of the disk then there is more mass diagonally infront/downard of me than beneath me.
Only for uniform density - if the Earth was slightly denser, or thicker, towards the Rim, that would compensate.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 03, 2007, 03:48:04 PM
If it were concave that might have the desired effect.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Geoff on March 03, 2007, 03:48:14 PM
The gravitational field would still come from the centre even on a disk. If I'm at the edge facing the centre of the disk then there is more mass diagonally infront/downard of me than beneath me.
Only for uniform density - if the Earth was slightly denser, or thicker, towards the Rim, that would compensate.
If it were thicker toward the outside, it would just create two forces, one toward the center of the earth and one down, and thus the vectors together would put the force toward the earths center of gravity, a flat earth which is more dense on the outside would be marginally more plausible, but gravity would still act toward the center of the earth.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 03, 2007, 03:59:15 PM
The gravitational field would still come from the centre even on a disk. If I'm at the edge facing the centre of the disk then there is more mass diagonally infront/downard of me than beneath me.
Only for uniform density - if the Earth was slightly denser, or thicker, towards the Rim, that would compensate.
If it were thicker toward the outside, it would just create two forces, one toward the center of the earth and one down, and thus the vectors together would put the force toward the earths center of gravity, a flat earth which is thicker on the outside would be marginally more plausible, but gravity would still act toward the center of the earth.
I don't quite follow.  From the hub of the Earth, you would feel vertical pull because everything would be symmetric.
From closer to the rim, facing Hubwards, you would feel vertical pull because the backwards pull of the closer part of the wall would offset the pull from the greater area in front of you.  It would take careful arrangement of the mass, but that just happens automatically because of the rotation of the Earth around the hub: centrifugal force effect.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Geoff on March 03, 2007, 04:07:33 PM
The gravitational field would still come from the centre even on a disk. If I'm at the edge facing the centre of the disk then there is more mass diagonally infront/downard of me than beneath me.
Only for uniform density - if the Earth was slightly denser, or thicker, towards the Rim, that would compensate.
If it were thicker toward the outside, it would just create two forces, one toward the center of the earth and one down, and thus the vectors together would put the force toward the earths center of gravity, a flat earth which is thicker on the outside would be marginally more plausible, but gravity would still act toward the center of the earth.
I don't quite follow.  From the hub of the Earth, you would feel vertical pull because everything would be symmetric.
From closer to the rim, facing Hubwards, you would feel vertical pull because the backwards pull of the closer part of the wall would offset the pull from the greater area in front of you.  It would take careful arrangement of the mass, but that just happens automatically because of the rotation of the Earth around the hub: centrifugal force effect.
If you were standing at the edge of the earth everything would be hubward of you, and thus you would be pulled toward the center.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 03, 2007, 04:21:14 PM
The gravitational field would still come from the centre even on a disk. If I'm at the edge facing the centre of the disk then there is more mass diagonally infront/downard of me than beneath me.
Only for uniform density - if the Earth was slightly denser, or thicker, towards the Rim, that would compensate.
If it were thicker toward the outside, it would just create two forces, one toward the center of the earth and one down, and thus the vectors together would put the force toward the earths center of gravity, a flat earth which is thicker on the outside would be marginally more plausible, but gravity would still act toward the center of the earth.
I don't quite follow.  From the hub of the Earth, you would feel vertical pull because everything would be symmetric.
From closer to the rim, facing Hubwards, you would feel vertical pull because the backwards pull of the closer part of the wall would offset the pull from the greater area in front of you.  It would take careful arrangement of the mass, but that just happens automatically because of the rotation of the Earth around the hub: centrifugal force effect.
If you were standing at the edge of the earth everything would be hubward of you, and thus you would be pulled toward the center.
Yes, though not by a huge amount.  But I don't think anyone has stood on the edge of the Earth and done the experiment; do you?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 03, 2007, 04:30:24 PM
In fact, that's such a good point, we should check: could someone on this site who has been close to the edge tell us if they felt as if they leaning slightly out?  Or is the ground always too rough to tell?  If the ground were slightly rounded at the edge, it would be difficult to check.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Geoff on March 03, 2007, 04:35:38 PM
In fact, that's such a good point, we should check: could someone on this site who has been close to the edge tell us if they felt as if they leaning slightly out?  Or is the ground always too rough to tell?  If the ground were slightly rounded at the edge, it would be difficult to check.
You wouldn't have to be that close to tell, you could definitely tell in southern Chile, and there is no nonmagnetic force toward the north pole anywhere.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Marvin the Martian on March 03, 2007, 04:37:01 PM
 >:(

BAN him, hes a Heritic of Satans !!!
Lets KILL HIIIMMMMMMMM
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 03, 2007, 04:45:54 PM
In fact, that's such a good point, we should check: could someone on this site who has been close to the edge tell us if they felt as if they leaning slightly out?  Or is the ground always too rough to tell?  If the ground were slightly rounded at the edge, it would be difficult to check.
You wouldn't have to be that close to tell, you could definitely tell in southern Chile, and there is no nonmagnetic force toward the north pole anywhere.
Not if it was dense enough at the edge.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Geoff on March 03, 2007, 04:50:48 PM
In fact, that's such a good point, we should check: could someone on this site who has been close to the edge tell us if they felt as if they leaning slightly out?  Or is the ground always too rough to tell?  If the ground were slightly rounded at the edge, it would be difficult to check.
You wouldn't have to be that close to tell, you could definitely tell in southern Chile, and there is no nonmagnetic force toward the north pole anywhere.
Not if it was dense enough at the edge.
I'm pretty sure you would still be pulled toward the earth's center of gravity, and there is also the problem that it isn't made of exponentially more dense material.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: BOGWarrior89 on March 03, 2007, 06:03:27 PM
Sorry you are contridicting the laws of physics.

Sorry, but you are showing your lack of understanding of Relativity.  Once you know Relativity, come back and see me.


Relativity? i suppose you have a degree in it.

I've taken a course for it.

Would you be so kind to point out where i have clearly gone wrong?
Well, here:
So, if a photon of light has a momentum it must have a mass.

"Regardless of light having a mass or not. How can the earth not have a mass? Because that is what FE-ers are saying when they say the earth has no gravitational pull."

Well, you see, it is assumed (in the RE model) that all mass has gravity, but it can't be proven.  Why?  The properties of the hypothetical messenger particle for gravity (the graviton) are unkown, for it is a hypothetical particle.  Meaning, we believe it exists, but we're not entirely sure.

In FE, we merely replace gravity on Earth for a constantly-accelerating reference frame.  Had you known General Relativity, you would have known that this does not violate the laws of physics, and is acceptable.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 06:32:00 PM
So the earth has no gravity what so ever and the force we feel is just it accelerating upwards?

Well despite the uncertainty of the "graviton particle" is that just one theory? There are many more proposed such as gravity waves, and most are not generally accepted in modern physics because we have not put together the uniform field theory that links magnetic and gravitational fields?

Despite the "graviton" existing at all. Which you are right, has not yet been proven. We can still see the earth has gravity not acceleration by observation.

Such as the Cavendish's torsion balance which takes two masses and measures the gravitational attraction between them, generated by their mass. Although it is small it can be measured accurately. And if the earth is made up of masses that can be shown to have a gravitational attraction between them, it is only logical to come to the conclusion that the earth has gravity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_experiment









btw, was the course in general relativity taught by an FE-er?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 03, 2007, 07:58:31 PM
Gravity does not exist as a force.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 08:01:33 PM
Gravity does not exist as a force.


And your proof for this is where?

I mean that is what defines gravity, a force between two masses.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 03, 2007, 08:20:59 PM
Gravity is a psudoforce.  Well, I read that that's what some guy at a patent office many years ago believed.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 08:27:47 PM
I am not formiliar with the term "psudoforce" so i checked the definition and found nothing. So assuming you ment psedi force i found this:

pseudo force
n.
The physically apparent but nonexistent force needed by an observer in a noninertial frame to make Newton's laws of motion hold true. The centrifugal force is a pseudo force. Also called fictitious force.

right? this explains how grivity does not exist how?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 03, 2007, 08:31:39 PM
Because the patent clerk said so.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 08:36:57 PM
Because the patent clerk said so.

forgive me if i am misunderstanding something but are you trying to tell me einstien does not believe in gravity?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 03, 2007, 08:40:53 PM
Yep.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: The Government on March 03, 2007, 08:42:43 PM
wow, i think we just hit an all time low here
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 03, 2007, 08:44:51 PM
Are you saying that Einstein believed in gravity as a force?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: The Government on March 03, 2007, 08:47:36 PM
yea he said it himself

(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4781/187617gy1.jpg)
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 03, 2007, 08:48:54 PM
I will admit that made me chuckle.  Too bad he didn't say that.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 03, 2007, 08:49:53 PM
hahahahah funny man
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: The Government on March 03, 2007, 09:01:05 PM
to be honest, i really cannot say because i dont know the guys history or his studies, nor do i know him personally.. so i remain open minded on what he believes
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 04, 2007, 12:20:23 AM
Are you saying that Einstein believed in gravity as a force?


IF gravity is not a force what is it then? a word?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: BOGWarrior89 on March 04, 2007, 01:53:33 AM
(http://photos-699.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v67/114/85/14835699/n14835699_34050534_739.jpg)
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 04, 2007, 03:56:50 AM
A FE-er calling me stupid? please.

Lets take it down a step. I can't help but feel you are refusing to answer the obvious. How is it that i can get masses on the earth and show that they have a gravitational pull?

Would this not mean the earth has a gravitational pull, seeing as it is made up of these masses?

Well answer that in plain english, instead of getting all side tracked.

k.thx.bb.



ow and btw i found this:


"Einstein's theory is exactly analogous to this. In Newton's theory, gravity makes particles leave their straight paths. In Einstein's theory of general relativity, gravity is a distortion of space-time. Particles still follow the straightest possible paths in that space-time. But because space-time is now distorted, even on those straightest paths, particles accelerate as if they were under the influence of what Newton called the gravitational force."

but at the end of the day, to put it in plain english, masses attract each other no matter how you want to explain it.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 04, 2007, 04:08:24 AM
btw, taking into account general relativity:

Fundamental principles
General relativity is based on the following set of fundamental principles which guided its development.[2][6] These principles are:

The general principle of relativity: The laws of physics must be the same for all observers (accelerated or not).


so is this not saying we can't be accelerating upwards forever because we will reach the speed of light? no matter how we look at it?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 04, 2007, 08:34:24 AM
btw, taking into account general relativity:

Fundamental principles
General relativity is based on the following set of fundamental principles which guided its development.[2][6] These principles are:

The general principle of relativity: The laws of physics must be the same for all observers (accelerated or not).

so is this not saying we can't be accelerating upwards forever because we will reach the speed of light? no matter how we look at it?
No.  GR allows you to accelerate forever, without reaching the speed of light, you just get closer to it.  You don't even need GR, Special Relativity (a simpler part of GR) will do it.  The reason is that space is not Euclidean, rigid bodies shrink when in relative motion and clocks tick more slowly.  Read any book on relativity for the explanation.

BTW, Einstein in one sense believed in gravity - of course he knew things fall down, have orbits etc - he just explained it away as being really just acceleration relative to a  curved spacetime which gives the illusion of gravity.  In the same way as explaining away centrifugal force as really being acceleration towards the centre. 
When we say an astronaut is feeling 'g'(ravitational) forces as she accelerates, it is exactly that: GR says you cannot distinguish between acceleration and gravity.  They are the same thing, and all gravity is, is acceleration.  Any popular science book on general relativity will explain this in more detail.  For recent ones I recommend Brian Greene "The Elegant Universe" of "The Fabric of the Cosmos"
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Pablo the Incredible on March 04, 2007, 08:52:57 AM
What then, makes things (with mass) bend space-time hmm?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: BOGWarrior89 on March 04, 2007, 10:01:34 AM
What then, makes things (with mass) bend space-time hmm?

Answer that question correctly and with observational backing and you get a Nobel prize and instant superstar status.  Truth is, we don't know, for we can only speculate.

A FE-er calling me stupid? please.

Yes, because intelligence is often associated with beliefs.  This is why Fred Phelps is as intelligent and logical as Einstein.

Lets take it down a step. I can't help but feel you are refusing to answer the obvious. How is it that i can get masses on the earth and show that they have a gravitational pull?

Your question is too vague, or else obviously flawed - you shouldn't be able to get two masses on Earth to attract each other (with gravity alone), because the Earth's "gravitational field" cancels out the miniscule force between the two objects (For GTR, Earth bends spacetime in such a way that smaller masses barely contribute and can be seen as negligible).

Would this not mean the earth has a gravitational pull, seeing as it is made up of these masses?

Just like how insulators should be affected by electricity the same way conductors are affected?  Some chemicals blow up when placed in water - does this mean that all chemicals blow up when placed in water?  Gravity could be a selective "force".  You need to acknowledge that we know little about gravity and we're just making up shit to fit the observations.

"Einstein's theory is exactly analogous to this. In Newton's theory, gravity makes particles leave their straight paths. In Einstein's theory of general relativity, gravity is a distortion of space-time. Particles still follow the straightest possible paths in that space-time. But because space-time is now distorted, even on those straightest paths, particles accelerate as if they were under the influence of what Newton called the gravitational force."

R_uv - (1/2) * g_uv * R = (8 * Pi * G/c^4) * T_uv , in other words.

but at the end of the day, to put it in plain english, masses attract each other no matter how you want to explain it.

Or "matter tells spacetime how to bend, and spacetime tells matter how to behave," as depicted in the above equation.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EricTheRed on March 04, 2007, 10:21:51 AM
I am not formiliar with the term "psudoforce" so i checked the definition and found nothing. So assuming you ment psedi force i found this:

pseudo force
n.
The physically apparent but nonexistent force needed by an observer in a noninertial frame to make Newton's laws of motion hold true. The centrifugal force is a pseudo force. Also called fictitious force.

right? this explains how grivity does not exist how?
Because the patent clerk said so.
Or more specifically, Einstein said that just as centrifugal force is really an illusion due to the observer being in a non-inertial frame (accelerating towards the centre), so gravity is an illusion due to the observer being in a noninertial frame (accelerating relative to the local inertial frames in curved spacetime).  The acceleration is felt as pressure from beneath from the Earth pushing us up, just as an accelerating spacecraft or elevator causes the illusion of gravity.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 05, 2007, 02:23:18 AM
"Your question is too vague, or else obviously flawed - you shouldn't be able to get two masses on Earth to attract each other (with gravity alone), because the Earth's "gravitational field" cancels out the miniscule force between the two objects (For GTR, Earth bends spacetime in such a way that smaller masses barely contribute and can be seen as negligible)."

Hey, I am getting a little confussed. Now FE-ers believe the earth has a gravitational Field? This is not the impression i got from the FAQ.

Also there is an experiment that shows two masses attracting each other by their gravitational force. I believe the canvendish's torsion balance demonstrats this.

www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavendish_experiment

Lets say you agree with this, it still all comes down to the fact that the earth has a gravitational field, or what we can interperet as a gravitational field. Basically things that have a mass attract each other. Right?

Which would mean that the earth and the sun and the moon are accelerating towards the earth, assuming they also have gravity which you state they do in your FAQ.

In this case, we are all clearly going to die, or should be dead already because the moon and the sun are going to crash into the earth. Because of this attraction. An intelligent FE-er could you explain please.

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Dr Smith pHD PPE Oxon on March 05, 2007, 04:19:06 AM
Penis
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 05, 2007, 06:05:40 AM
errr.... right.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mr. Ireland on March 05, 2007, 06:12:07 AM
Are you saying that Einstein believed in gravity as a force?


IF gravity is not a force what is it then? a word?

Yes, it is.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 05, 2007, 08:27:53 AM
Funny lah you.... but i can't help think that FE-ers are refusing to answer my question......

Silence says 1000 words in some cases... In this case it is telling me that FE-ers physics is fundimentally wrong.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 09:02:55 AM
Are you saying that Einstein believed in gravity as a force?


IF gravity is not a force what is it then? a word?

Yes, it is.
Gravity is a fictitious force.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 09:13:21 AM
Basically things that have a mass attract each other. Right?

But what about things without mass?

Quote
In this case, we are all clearly going to die, or should be dead already because the moon and the sun are going to crash into the earth. Because of this attraction. An intelligent FE-er could you explain please.
The sun/moon/earth can be modeled by a second order, underdamped, differential equation, whose solution would lead to harmonics that would have died out billions of years ago.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: BOGWarrior89 on March 05, 2007, 10:12:50 AM
"Your question is too vague, or else obviously flawed - you shouldn't be able to get two masses on Earth to attract each other (with gravity alone), because the Earth's "gravitational field" cancels out the miniscule force between the two objects (For GTR, Earth bends spacetime in such a way that smaller masses barely contribute and can be seen as negligible)."

Hey, I am getting a little confussed. Now FE-ers believe the earth has a gravitational Field? This is not the impression i got from the FAQ.

No - in FE, the Earth is constantly accelerating upwards.  I was using RE in the above explanation.  Stop mixing your models.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Pablo the Incredible on March 05, 2007, 10:13:32 AM
This thread shall never die. : ;D
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: astronomy101 on March 05, 2007, 12:39:35 PM
This thread shall never die. : ;D

gravity = acceleration
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 12:44:00 PM
You guys do know to say gravity=acceleration, you would also be saying the moon and the Earth would have the same gravity right?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 05, 2007, 12:45:00 PM
I'd just like to know what causes the oceans to accelerate towards the moon.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 05, 2007, 12:47:36 PM
You guys do know to say gravity=acceleration, you would also be saying the moon and the Earth would have the same gravity right?

Why is that, and how do you know whether or not they do? 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 05, 2007, 12:50:04 PM
Well when astronauts landed there they experienced a lower acceleration than when they walked on Earth.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 12:51:22 PM
Well if the Earth is going up at 9.8m/s/s and we never lose the moon, so it to would be going at 9.8m/s/s. Thus having a gravity of 9.8m/s/s.  
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Earth is flat consult faq on March 05, 2007, 12:54:04 PM
I'd just like to know what causes the oceans to accelerate towards the moon.

This effect was created with a machine made by the government, we dont know the location of this machine however it is most likely hidden in the icewall.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 05, 2007, 03:06:12 PM
I'd just like to know what causes the oceans to accelerate towards the moon.

This effect was created with a machine made by the government, we dont know the location of this machine however it is most likely hidden in the icewall.

LOL



Are you saying that Einstein believed in gravity as a force?


IF gravity is not a force what is it then? a word?

Yes, it is.
Gravity is a fictitious force.


But at the end of the day there is an effect due to this fictious force that forces things with a mass to attract each other. Why is it you are refusing to accept this fact? is it because it disagrees with your model??

Basically things that have a mass attract each other. Right?

But what about things without mass?

Quote
In this case, we are all clearly going to die, or should be dead already because the moon and the sun are going to crash into the earth. Because of this attraction. An intelligent FE-er could you explain please.
The sun/moon/earth can be modeled by a second order, underdamped, differential equation, whose solution would lead to harmonics that would have died out billions of years ago.

Tell me on object without a mass.

underdamped differential equation?? whose solution would lead to harmonics? HOW?
Please stop making this way more complicated than it needs to be, basically, if the earth has a gravitational field the earth will collide with the sun and the moon.

I thought all we were desputing now is whether the earth has gravity.?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 03:24:46 PM

But at the end of the day there is an effect due to this fictious force that forces things with a mass to attract each other. Why is it you are refusing to accept this fact? is it because it disagrees with your model??
There is no force.  That is why I said it was a fictious force.  Gravity as a force does not exist.

Tell me on object without a mass.
A photon.


Quote
underdamped differential equation?? whose solution would lead to harmonics? HOW?
That's what happens to second order, under damped, differential equations.

Quote
Please stop making this way more complicated than it needs to be, basically, if the earth has a gravitational field the earth will collide with the sun and the moon.
Exactly.  Which can be modeled by that 2nd order ODE.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 03:52:18 PM
So you dont have an answer for my question?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 05:46:14 PM
So you dont have an answer for my question?
What was it?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 06:53:16 PM
You guys do know to say gravity=acceleration, you would also be saying the moon and the Earth would have the same gravity right?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 07:37:24 PM
Gravity=acceleration doesn't mean what you think it means, apparently.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 07:38:42 PM
Yeah apparently not.  Apparently the moon has more acceleration yet never accelerates away from the Earth.  Please explain how the moon has less gravity then the Earth. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 07:44:09 PM
Why would the moon accelerate faster than the earth?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 07:50:35 PM
Its not accelerating faster.  So by what you say its gravity is 9.8m/s/s.  Which is wrong, it has less gravity then the Earth.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 07:56:24 PM
Its not accelerating faster. 
Quote
Apparently the moon has more acceleration yet never accelerates away from the Earth.
It seems to me like that's what you are saying.

Quote
So by what you say its gravity is 9.8m/s/s.  Which is wrong, it has less gravity then the Earth.
It can't have less 'gravity' than the earth, as the earth doesn't have any.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 07:59:53 PM
You cant read can you.  I'm saying the Moon has the same acceleration as the Earth yet it has less gravity.  You claim the Earth accelerates upwards at 9/8m/s/s, so the moon would be doing the same.  Still with me?  So that would make the moon have 9.8m/s/s of gravity. Yes?  So why does the moon actually have less gravity then the Earth?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 08:05:23 PM
The moon would only experience the 9.8m/s^2 on the surface which was 'seen' by it's direction of travel.  The rest of the moon would have less gravitation.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 08:09:03 PM
So the surface has an acceleration of 9.8m/s/s on the surface?  But in reality it doesn't.  Explain without asking a question.  You are still sidestepping.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 08:37:27 PM
I answered the question.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 08:59:09 PM
Well then you answered it wrong.  The inside of the moon and Earth have the same gravity as the outside according to the FE model.  I know you know you are wrong.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 09:01:22 PM
The inside?  What are you talking about?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Tom Bishop on March 05, 2007, 09:01:36 PM
Well then you answered it wrong.  The inside of the moon and Earth have the same gravity as the outside according to the FE model.  I know you know you are wrong.

Are you aware that you're arguing physics with a mechanical engineer?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 09:06:15 PM
The moon would only experience the 9.8m/s^2 on the surface which was 'seen' by it's direction of travel.  The rest of the moon would have less gravitation.

You said right here the surface of the moon has 9.8m/s/s of gravity.  Yet thats wrong.  And you said the rest has less, which would have to be inside the moon.  Are you still lost?  Do I still need to explain what you said? 

Well then you answered it wrong.  The inside of the moon and Earth have the same gravity as the outside according to the FE model.  I know you know you are wrong.

Are you aware that you're arguing physics with a mechanical engineer?

Yeah I am, I'm also aware he thinks the Earth is flat.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 09:20:42 PM
The moon would only experience the 9.8m/s^2 on the surface which was 'seen' by it's direction of travel.  The rest of the moon would have less gravitation.

You said right here the surface of the moon has 9.8m/s/s of gravity.  Yet thats wrong.  And you said the rest has less, which would have to be inside the moon.  Are you still lost?  Do I still need to explain what you said? 

No, but maybe I was going to fast for you.  Let me slow it down.  If the moon is spherical, then the only part of the moon that will have a 1g acceleration at the surface will be at the point in which a vector normal to the sphere is in the same direction as the moon's travel.  All other points will have less than 1g of acceleration normal to the surface due to the moon's movement.  The moon itself will have a gravitation associated with all other points on it's surface, lower than 1g.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 09:25:01 PM
And the moon rocks dont fall off because?   
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 09:27:20 PM
Gravitation.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 05, 2007, 09:30:03 PM
wow just wow. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 05, 2007, 11:19:01 PM
Do you have something against gravitation?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 04:19:17 AM
Before i go on to the main topic of my post i would like to question why my thread on clouds got removed. It was not fully answered to me, as to how the clouds are also constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81 ms^-2 when there is clearly no force acting on them to accelerate them.

 

About the earths gravity...

I still feel that you have not fully answered my question. You see right i do realise that general relativity took the place of newtonian physics, but i read somewhere that even Nasa scientist use newtonian physics to work out things such as the trajectories of shuttles and other complex calculations.
It is still a law of physics that applies if you put the right values in, or else they would not still be teaching it/ using it still. And general relativity is a way of explaining how newtonian physics works and the reason why objects attract each other. But at the end of the day newtonian physics still works and should be considered in your FE model.

**before i go on, to avoid 20 posts on nasa being a fraud i would like to say, even if you think Nasa is one big conspiracy, newtonian physics still applies and is an accurate way of predicting the movement of bodies, regardless.

Now, here comes the in-escapable question that you will eventually have to answer.

The earth has a mass, therefore it has a gravitational field... or it bends "time space" if you like.
But at the end of the day, it still attracts other masses (i.e. the moon and the sun) in newtonian physics and in Einstiens theory of general relativity.

Therefore the sun and the moon will eventually be pulled towards the earth due to gravity or the bending of time space. How do FE-ers explain this??
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Theearthisafreakingsphere on March 06, 2007, 06:32:00 AM
Steven Hawkings: What do these elephants rest on?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Mr. Ireland on March 06, 2007, 06:39:37 AM
Before i go on to the main topic of my post i would like to question why my thread on clouds got removed. It was not fully answered to me, as to how the clouds are also constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81 ms^-2 when there is clearly no force acting on them to accelerate them.

Clouds aren't "outside" of the earth.  They are within the atmosphere so what holds them up there on a RE would do the same for them on a FE.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 07:14:14 AM
Before i go on to the main topic of my post i would like to question why my thread on clouds got removed. It was not fully answered to me, as to how the clouds are also constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81 ms^-2 when there is clearly no force acting on them to accelerate them.

Clouds aren't "outside" of the earth.  They are within the atmosphere so what holds them up there on a RE would do the same for them on a FE.


In the RE model of the earth the reason for the atmosphere staying on the earth is because of the very shape of the earth, a rough sphere. The denser elements are drawn towards the core of the earth (dense iron core), and the lighter elements are in the atmosphere, the outer sphere of the earth. They are prevented from going into space because of the earths gravity.

FE-ers cannot use this explaination, 1 because they do not believe in gravity on the earth and 2, if they do believe the earth has gravity, the very nature of the earth accelerating upwards would mean that the atmosphere would just be left behind in space, and the fact the believe the earth is flat would mean that the atmosphere would only exist in the middle of thier earth (the nort pole) anyway.. if there was no acceleration.

I have told you my truth, now you tell me yours. FE-ers i mean.


Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 06, 2007, 07:40:35 AM
Well then you answered it wrong.  The inside of the moon and Earth have the same gravity as the outside according to the FE model.  I know you know you are wrong.

Are you aware that you're arguing physics with a mechanical engineer?

Yeah you're always going to come up against problems when you argue Physics with a non-physicist. Especially Engineers who think they know physics.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 07:48:34 AM
Especially Engineers who think they know physics.
Do you realize that physics is the entirety of engineering?


Find something I have said that is not consistent with physics as we know it.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 07:53:22 AM
Before i go on to the main topic of my post i would like to question why my thread on clouds got removed. It was not fully answered to me, as to how the clouds are also constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81 ms^-2 when there is clearly no force acting on them to accelerate them.

How do airplanes fly when there is clearly no force acting on them, making them accelerate upwards?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 08:11:25 AM
Before i go on to the main topic of my post i would like to question why my thread on clouds got removed. It was not fully answered to me, as to how the clouds are also constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81 ms^-2 when there is clearly no force acting on them to accelerate them.

How do airplanes fly when there is clearly no force acting on them, making them accelerate upwards?


The force is called lift, it is due to the different pressures of air that flow under and over the wing. Surely an "Engineer" would know that?

i guess you didn't do a degree in aeronautical engineering...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 08:14:03 AM
Before i go on to the main topic of my post i would like to question why my thread on clouds got removed. It was not fully answered to me, as to how the clouds are also constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81 ms^-2 when there is clearly no force acting on them to accelerate them.

How do airplanes fly when there is clearly no force acting on them, making them accelerate upwards?


The force is called lift, it is due to the different pressures of air that flow under and over the wing. Surely an "Engineer" would know that?

i guess you didn't do a degree in aeronautical engineering...
But you said that the clouds can't be accelerating as there is no visible force acting on them.  How can you believe that airplanes fly, as there is no visible force acting on them?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 08:23:27 AM
Before i go on to the main topic of my post i would like to question why my thread on clouds got removed. It was not fully answered to me, as to how the clouds are also constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81 ms^-2 when there is clearly no force acting on them to accelerate them.

How do airplanes fly when there is clearly no force acting on them, making them accelerate upwards?



The force is called lift, it is due to the different pressures of air that flow under and over the wing. Surely an "Engineer" would know that?

i guess you didn't do a degree in aeronautical engineering...
But you said that the clouds can't be accelerating as there is no visible force acting on them.  How can you believe that airplanes fly, as there is no visible force acting on them?

Please don't play on words, if you want the force that accelerates a plane to be visible go to any wind tunnel with a model aeroplane. Its basic aerodynamics, however being able to accelerate individual particles that make up the atmosphere, is neither visible or explain-able in the FE model.. unless you care to enlighten me...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 08:24:48 AM

I still feel that you have not fully answered my question. You see right i do realise that general relativity took the place of newtonian physics, but i read somewhere that even Nasa scientist use newtonian physics to work out things such as the trajectories of shuttles and other complex calculations.
It is still a law of physics that applies if you put the right values in, or else they would not still be teaching it/ using it still. And general relativity is a way of explaining how newtonian physics works and the reason why objects attract each other. But at the end of the day newtonian physics still works and should be considered in your FE model.

Newtonian physics are inaccurate.  While his three laws of motion are still used today and are the basis for most of modern science, they become increasingly wrong as velocities increase.  At slow speeds, Newton's laws are simple to use and the error is very small.  As velocities approach fractions of c, the errors become extreme.  SR is always accurate, and is sometimes used in place of Newton's works, even though the math of SR is much more complicated.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 06, 2007, 08:25:15 AM
Lucyk I'm not sure what you expect the air to do other than be pushed by the Earth?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 08:26:54 AM
however being able to accelerate individual particles that make up the atmosphere, is neither visible or explain-able in the FE model.. unless you care to enlighten me...
How am I able to breathe in an airplane that is taking off?  According to you, the aircraft can not accelerate the air inside, so everyone should suffocate.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 08:30:02 AM
however being able to accelerate individual particles that make up the atmosphere, is neither visible or explain-able in the FE model.. unless you care to enlighten me...
How am I able to breathe in an airplane that is taking off?  According to you, the aircraft can not accelerate the air inside, so everyone should suffocate.

Sorry, i am not quite sure what you mean by this. The air inside most aeroplanes is pressurised anyway...

but why would air need to be accelerated so that you can breathe? its the pressure that matters.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 08:32:33 AM
The aircraft I fly are not pressurized. According to you, the aircraft cannot accelerate the air inside, so as I increase the throttle, all the air in the aircraft should be left behind, leaving me nothing to breathe.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 08:36:15 AM
The aircraft I fly are not pressurized. According to you, the aircraft cannot accelerate the air inside, so as I increase the throttle, all the air in the aircraft should be left behind, leaving me nothing to breathe.

Ok, say you fly unpressurised air craft... you accelerate leaving air behind you, but what do you accerate into?? more air right?



I mean 100 years ago, they thought if you went faster then 30 mph you would suffocate, seriously.... and now...

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 08:39:32 AM

Ok, say you fly unpressurised air craft... you accelerate leaving air behind you, but what do you accerate into?? more air right?

So why is it not windy in airplanes or cars?  I would be lucky if I didn't crash due to being in a 200mph air stream.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mr. Ireland on March 06, 2007, 08:42:23 AM
Before i go on to the main topic of my post i would like to question why my thread on clouds got removed. It was not fully answered to me, as to how the clouds are also constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81 ms^-2 when there is clearly no force acting on them to accelerate them.

Clouds aren't "outside" of the earth.  They are within the atmosphere so what holds them up there on a RE would do the same for them on a FE.


In the RE model of the earth the reason for the atmosphere staying on the earth is because of the very shape of the earth, a rough sphere. The denser elements are drawn towards the core of the earth (dense iron core), and the lighter elements are in the atmosphere, the outer sphere of the earth. They are prevented from going into space because of the earths gravity.

FE-ers cannot use this explaination, 1 because they do not believe in gravity on the earth and 2, if they do believe the earth has gravity, the very nature of the earth accelerating upwards would mean that the atmosphere would just be left behind in space, and the fact the believe the earth is flat would mean that the atmosphere would only exist in the middle of thier earth (the nort pole) anyway.. if there was no acceleration.

I have told you my truth, now you tell me yours. FE-ers i mean.

Uhhm, wasn't the question about CLOUDS not the ATMOSPHERE?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 08:44:21 AM

Ok, say you fly unpressurised air craft... you accelerate leaving air behind you, but what do you accerate into?? more air right?

So why is it not windy in airplanes or cars?  I would be lucky if I didn't crash due to being in a 200mph air stream.

It is not windy in cars or aeroplanes... Well it depends what you fly/drive

I think you'll find it is pretty windy in a convertable or a first world war red barron.

However if you are in a car/aeroplane with a roof obviously the air inside the cabin is under some pressure.

200mph air stream? is that not the equavilent of flying an air speed 200 m.p.h? I mean jet planes can do what 10 times that much now?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 08:46:28 AM
Before i go on to the main topic of my post i would like to question why my thread on clouds got removed. It was not fully answered to me, as to how the clouds are also constantly accelerating upwards at 9.81 ms^-2 when there is clearly no force acting on them to accelerate them.

Clouds aren't "outside" of the earth.  They are within the atmosphere so what holds them up there on a RE would do the same for them on a FE.


In the RE model of the earth the reason for the atmosphere staying on the earth is because of the very shape of the earth, a rough sphere. The denser elements are drawn towards the core of the earth (dense iron core), and the lighter elements are in the atmosphere, the outer sphere of the earth. They are prevented from going into space because of the earths gravity.

FE-ers cannot use this explaination, 1 because they do not believe in gravity on the earth and 2, if they do believe the earth has gravity, the very nature of the earth accelerating upwards would mean that the atmosphere would just be left behind in space, and the fact the believe the earth is flat would mean that the atmosphere would only exist in the middle of thier earth (the nort pole) anyway.. if there was no acceleration.

I have told you my truth, now you tell me yours. FE-ers i mean.

Uhhm, wasn't the question about CLOUDS not the ATMOSPHERE?

Clouds comprise of the atmosphere, so i am sure you will forgive the inconsistancy as i assume what happens to the clouds also happens to the atmosphere under the effects of g.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mr. Ireland on March 06, 2007, 08:49:57 AM
Well, I guess it makes sense to bring the atmosphere into the issue, but it was originally JUST about clouds.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 08:52:48 AM

However if you are in a car/aeroplane with a roof obviously the air inside the cabin is under some pressure.

That doesn't answer as to why it is not windy.  If the airplane itself cannot accelerate the air inside, it must also not accelerate the air outside, therefore the air should pass right into the cockpit, at whatever speed the aircraft is flying, e.g. 200mph.
Quote
200mph air stream? is that not the equavilent of flying an air speed 200 m.p.h? I mean jet planes can do what 10 times that much now?
And?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 08:53:04 AM

I still feel that you have not fully answered my question. You see right i do realise that general relativity took the place of newtonian physics, but i read somewhere that even Nasa scientist use newtonian physics to work out things such as the trajectories of shuttles and other complex calculations.
It is still a law of physics that applies if you put the right values in, or else they would not still be teaching it/ using it still. And general relativity is a way of explaining how newtonian physics works and the reason why objects attract each other. But at the end of the day newtonian physics still works and should be considered in your FE model.

Newtonian physics are inaccurate.  While his three laws of motion are still used today and are the basis for most of modern science, they become increasingly wrong as velocities increase.  At slow speeds, Newton's laws are simple to use and the error is very small.  As velocities approach fractions of c, the errors become extreme.  SR is always accurate, and is sometimes used in place of Newton's works, even though the math of SR is much more complicated.

Newtonian physics are accurate enough to predict the mass of the earth to 5 sig. figs, and predict g to alot alot more.
SO, we can sure as the earth being round use it to do basic modelling of the FE world.

But OK, if you are so against it... we ll use general relativity.

The earth is a mass.
It bends time and space.
The same is for the sun and the moon.
Why have we not crashed into the moon or sun?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 08:53:51 AM
I told you:  Refer to that 2nd order ODE.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 08:57:04 AM

However if you are in a car/aeroplane with a roof obviously the air inside the cabin is under some pressure.

That doesn't answer as to why it is not windy.  If the airplane itself cannot accelerate the air inside, it must also not accelerate the air outside, therefore the air should pass right into the cockpit, at whatever speed the aircraft is flying, e.g. 200mph.
Quote
200mph air stream? is that not the equavilent of flying an air speed 200 m.p.h? I mean jet planes can do what 10 times that much now?
And?

the aeroplane is accelerating the air inside, there is pressure inside the cabin. If you have a basic grasp of gas laws, you will know that the pressure inside the plane is pressing against the cabin walls, the cabin is part of the plane, the plane is accelerating, therefore the gas is accelerating.

I told you:  Refer to that 2nd order ODE.

I don't see how a 2nd order Differential Equation can defy the laws of physics.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 08:59:09 AM
About the 200 mph air speed thing. Did you not say you would crash in a plane if you did that speed?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 06, 2007, 09:47:37 AM

the aeroplane is accelerating the air inside, there is pressure inside the cabin. If you have a basic grasp of gas laws, you will know that the pressure inside the plane is pressing against the cabin walls, the cabin is part of the plane, the plane is accelerating, therefore the gas is accelerating.

What you really meant to ask from the begining is what stops the air being pushed to the sides am I right? If there was something encasing the Earth or at least stopping the air getting out the sides then it would be accelerated just as you have described in this quote.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 06, 2007, 09:58:18 AM
FE-ers cannot use this explaination, 1 because they do not believe in gravity on the earth and 2, if they do believe the earth has gravity, the very nature of the earth accelerating upwards would mean that the atmosphere would just be left behind in space, and the fact the believe the earth is flat would mean that the atmosphere would only exist in the middle of thier earth (the nort pole) anyway.. if there was no acceleration.

This is why I think there has to be some kind of dome over the FE atmosphere. It's hard to say what this dome actually consists of, but it must be there or else we would not be alive. 

Acceleration of the FE and gravity on the RE result in very similar pressure and density gradients.  The differences are negligible at 'human' altitudes. 

Why are you talking about "If there was no acceleration"? 

Edit, sorry this is so old.  I didn't realize there had been two new pages since this post. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 06, 2007, 10:03:39 AM
Lucky what do you think the air should be doing in Flat Earth theory? Assuming it cannot escape over the edge some how.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on March 06, 2007, 10:14:47 AM
Do you have something against gravitation?
Stop contradicting yourself.  The rocks on the moon would fall off if Gravity=acceleration.  But since the rocks stay on Gravity = force do to something (most likely mass).
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 12:06:36 PM
the aeroplane is accelerating the air inside, there is pressure inside the cabin.
You said it was not possible.  But now it is?

Quote
I don't see how a 2nd order Differential Equation can defy the laws of physics.
It demonstrates those laws, and the interaction of them.

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 12:09:46 PM
Do you have something against gravitation?
Stop contradicting yourself.  The rocks on the moon would fall off if Gravity=acceleration.  But since the rocks stay on Gravity = force do to something (most likely mass).
I didn't contradict myself.  Gravity does not exist.  Gravitation does.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 12:11:05 PM
About the 200 mph air speed thing. Did you not say you would crash in a plane if you did that speed?
If I had to fly with a 200 mph wind in my face, it would make the act of flying a very difficult one.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 06, 2007, 03:10:45 PM
the aeroplane is accelerating the air inside, there is pressure inside the cabin.
You said it was not possible.  But now it is?

Quote
I don't see how a 2nd order Differential Equation can defy the laws of physics.
It demonstrates those laws, and the interaction of them.




I never said this was not possible. Only on the scale of the earth, where there is no apparent dome to keep gas at a constant pressure.

Anyway Eviltoothpaste and kasroa, even this idea is flawed, because there is not a constant pressure throughout the atmosphere. The pressure is greater at the surface. If there was a dome or some container that kept the earths atmosphere in, it would need to be pressurised, and the pressure would need to be constant, which it clearly isn't, as pressure varies at altitudes. ANd if there is a dome around the earth what are asteriods? The dome falling apart? Arn't you concerned FE-ers your 2 minute old theory has just predicted our deaths.

Think of the analogy of putting a divers oxygen tank in a car and accerlerating. The pressure in the tank will remain constant, although it will be accelerating.
SO FE-ers, the question still is.... explain your model ...

And could you please explain this equation Engineer that defies the laws of physics, as to how the gravitational attraction between the sun, the moon and earth can be rendered null?

Honestly, i can't see how... and its like me saying... Elvis's assasination can be explained by the second derivative. Could you put your explaination in clear concise words instead of hiding behind maths.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 06, 2007, 04:14:54 PM
If there was a dome or some container that kept the earths atmosphere in, it would need to be pressurised, and the pressure would need to be constant, which it clearly isn't, as pressure varies at altitudes.

Yes, the dome would need to be pressurized, but pressure would not be constant if it were accelerating...

Think of the analogy of putting a divers oxygen tank in a car and accerlerating. The pressure in the tank will remain constant, although it will be accelerating.
SO FE-ers, the question still is.... explain your model ...

The average pressure in the tank will remain constant, but not local pressures. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 05:18:57 PM

I never said this was not possible. Only on the scale of the earth, where there is no apparent dome to keep gas at a constant pressure.

Quote from: lucky
is flawed, because there is not a constant pressure throughout the atmosphere. The pressure is greater at the surface.

Uh, which one is it?

By the way, due to Einstein and the Equivalence Principle, there is no local example that is explained by gravity, that cannot be explained by acceleration.  One would think you would have figured that out by now.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 06, 2007, 05:33:09 PM
One would think you would learn the Earth is round by now.  You do realize you don't believe in millions of pictures and lots of data, and believe in a giant ice wall that no one ever saw.   

Einstein didn't think the Earth was flat.

If you did a experiment on top of a "flat earth" and then tried to do it on the bottom there would be a problem according to you. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Rick_James on March 06, 2007, 06:48:56 PM
One would think you would learn the Earth is round by now.  You do realize you don't believe in millions of pictures and lots of data, and believe in a giant ice wall that no one ever saw.   

Einstein didn't think the Earth was flat.

If you did a experiment on top of a "flat earth" and then tried to do it on the bottom there would be a problem according to you. 


Getting to the bottom would be the first problem.....
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 06:52:44 PM
One would think you would learn the Earth is round by now.  You do realize you don't believe in millions of pictures and lots of data, and believe in a giant ice wall that no one ever saw.     
Hmm, I didn't realize that.

Quote

Einstein didn't think the Earth was flat.
Who said he did?

Quote
If you did a experiment on top of a "flat earth" and then tried to do it on the bottom there would be a problem according to you.
Not really.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 06, 2007, 08:09:06 PM
Umm according to you, you would fall off the other side of Earth.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 08:33:37 PM
Yep, it would be just like having 'gravity' pull you off the surface.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on March 06, 2007, 08:36:49 PM
Yep, it would be just like having 'gravity' pull you off the surface.

Except gravity pulls you to surfaces, not away. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 06, 2007, 09:05:22 PM
Yep, it would be just like having 'gravity' pull you off the surface.

Except gravity pulls you to surfaces, not away. 
Not on the underside of the FE.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 07, 2007, 12:47:32 AM

I never said this was not possible. Only on the scale of the earth, where there is no apparent dome to keep gas at a constant pressure.

Quote from: lucky
is flawed, because there is not a constant pressure throughout the atmosphere. The pressure is greater at the surface.

Uh, which one is it?

By the way, due to Einstein and the Equivalence Principle, there is no local example that is explained by gravity, that cannot be explained by acceleration.  One would think you would have figured that out by now.

You have taken two different explanations and merged them into one.

I did not say it was impossible to accelerate a gas. But it is hard to imagine being able to accelerate the atmosphere with no visible force acting on it, gas does not accerate for no apparent reason... But now suddenly a dome has been brought in this.

What is the dome made out of? Does this mean your model in the FAQ is wrong? what is holding the dome up?

 You have just opened a pandoras box of questions, i mean honestly, it seems to me there is no founding fundimental FE model. It just seems to me you are making it up to get round fundimental flaws that i point out.



Equivalence principle, look call it what you want. But at the end of the day masses like the earth and the sun will attract/accelerate towards each other. In newtonian physics and in general relativity. And this harmonics equation is a myth, how... if you understand it so well do masses not attract each other in plane english????


And yes engineer i do realise that the units for g are the same as acceleration. The question still remains the same.

if you like : Why are we not accelerating towards the sun if there is additional acceleration from the attraction of two masses due to the bending of space time???

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 07, 2007, 01:10:25 AM
I did not say it was impossible to accelerate a gas. But it is hard to imagine being able to accelerate the atmosphere with no visible force acting on it, gas does not accerate for no apparent reason... But now suddenly a dome has been brought in this.

So once again, is it hard to imagine being able to accelerate an airplane upwards with no visible force acting on it?

The atmosphere accelerates due to the fact that it is in contact with the earth.
Title: Re: omg
Post by: lucky on March 07, 2007, 02:11:13 AM
suck it
you guys r retards.  what about satilite tv a consiricy too omg
but i guess you all are uneducated retards

Look guy, if you come and make a post like that on these forums, people who think the earth is flat will ignore you.

I personally believe the earth is shperical. But try telling them that... the only way to get through to them is to tell them the flaws in their model of the flat earth. Which are in abudence.

Wanna try a different approach guy? or issit you who is uneducated enough to make a valid arguement?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 07, 2007, 02:17:44 AM
I did not say it was impossible to accelerate a gas. But it is hard to imagine being able to accelerate the atmosphere with no visible force acting on it, gas does not accerate for no apparent reason... But now suddenly a dome has been brought in this.

So once again, is it hard to imagine being able to accelerate an airplane upwards with no visible force acting on it?

The atmosphere accelerates due to the fact that it is in contact with the earth.

Look, stop playing on my english, i know it is not perfect... But at the end of the day... their is a valid reason why a plane accelerates upwards... lift. No such thing is true for the atmosphere in the FE model. Anyway, the aeroplane is a solid not a gas.

The atmosphere accelerates because it is in contact with the earth? What kind of reasoning is that??

For that to happen It needs to be pressurised.... like the air plane analagy. Or else it would just be left behind in space.So some FE-ers have proposed a dome theory... that contains the atmosphere and keeps it pressurised. Which i can't see as being a viable model for FE-ers...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 07, 2007, 02:46:57 AM
The atmosphere accelerates because it is in contact with the earth? What kind of reasoning is that??
The same kind of reasoning Newton did.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: DJFICO on March 07, 2007, 03:49:16 AM
Imagine the earth was a half dome (like a spoon) positioned as a
'U'. Now flip the atmospheric dome upside down, in the 'U' position also, and press it against the earth 13,000,000.00 ft away from the surface. This should answer how pressure and gravity actually function.

D.J.-F.I.C.O.

"There is no path to enlightenment --> Enlightenment is the path!"
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 07, 2007, 05:42:46 AM
Imagine the earth was a half dome (like a spoon) positioned as a
'U'. Now flip the atmospheric dome upside down, in the 'U' position also, and press it against the earth 13,000,000.00 ft away from the surface. This should answer how pressure and gravity actually function.

D.J.-F.I.C.O.

"There is no path to enlightenment --> Enlightenment is the path!"

Sorry i don;t get what you are trying to say. Please explain a bit more..


I did not say it was impossible to accelerate a gas. But it is hard to imagine being able to accelerate the atmosphere with no visible force acting on it, gas does not accerate for no apparent reason... But now suddenly a dome has been brought in this.

So once again, is it hard to imagine being able to accelerate an airplane upwards with no visible force acting on it?

The atmosphere accelerates due to the fact that it is in contact with the earth.

Look, stop playing on my english, i know it is not perfect... But at the end of the day... their is a valid reason why a plane accelerates upwards... lift. No such thing is true for the atmosphere in the FE model. Anyway, the aeroplane is a solid not a gas.

The atmosphere accelerates because it is in contact with the earth? What kind of reasoning is that??

For that to happen It needs to be pressurised.... like the air plane analagy. Or else it would just be left behind in space.So some FE-ers have proposed a dome theory... that contains the atmosphere and keeps it pressurised. Which i can't see as being a viable model for FE-ers...

Newton thought the earth was round. And by saying what you are saying has no context or meaning here. You cannot deny the in-escapable physics. unless the atmosphere is kept in by some container in your FE-model it will just fall off the sides of the earth.

i.e. imagine a plane that could fly into space, this plane has no roof, it is an open top. As you accelerate upwards into space, you will leave the atmosphere behind. Now imagine the plane is the earth. The same thing would happen!!!

i.e. the FE model is flawed.... and yes a dome would be somowhat more viable than what the engineer is saying, at least it has some founding physics. But the idea of it is still a little impluadable...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Mr. Ireland on March 07, 2007, 05:50:48 AM
I GOT IT! The earth is surrounded by a giant glass dome that holds in the atmosphere.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 07, 2007, 07:14:29 AM

i.e. imagine a plane that could fly into space, this plane has no roof, it is an open top. As you accelerate upwards into space, you will leave the atmosphere behind. Now imagine the plane is the earth. The same thing would happen!!!

Why would the air escape if you are accelerating?  How is your example any different than the RE?

Quote
Newton thought the earth was round. And by saying what you are saying has no context or meaning here.
I didn't say Newton thought otherwise.  By Newton's third law, the air is in contact with the earth, therefore, the earth provides a force to the air.  Again, gravity and acceleration are locally indistinguishable.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 07, 2007, 07:50:22 AM

i.e. imagine a plane that could fly into space, this plane has no roof, it is an open top. As you accelerate upwards into space, you will leave the atmosphere behind. Now imagine the plane is the earth. The same thing would happen!!!

Why would the air escape if you are accelerating?  How is your example any different than the RE?

Quote
Newton thought the earth was round. And by saying what you are saying has no context or meaning here.
I didn't say Newton thought otherwise.  By Newton's third law, the air is in contact with the earth, therefore, the earth provides a force to the air.  Again, gravity and acceleration are locally indistinguishable.



Look, this is basic physics... i don't see why you are having such a hard time grapsing it.

A body will stay at rest or constant motion unless another force acts upon it.

The earth is "accelerating" according to you.

IF we take the atmosphere, which is a gas and consider each gas particle serperately.

The earth is moving into the particle because it is accelerating, and the particle is at rest or constant motion as no force is acting on it. But relative to the particle no matter what speed, the earth is moving towards the particle at 9.81 ms^-2.

Agreed?

Therefore when the particle hits the surface of the earth, it will initially be accelerated by the earth, but then as there is a build up of particles they will eventually run off the side of the earth, leaving the atmosphere behind.

In simple terms imagine the gas particles like marbles suspended in space, a surface is accerating towards the marbles at 9.81 ms^-2, the marbles are going to hit the surface and be accelerated temporarily, untill it runs of the surface.

Look i ll draw you a picture  (http://C:\Documents and Settings\Kit\My Documents\My Pictures)

how do i link pictures? this one seems to of not worked.

Understand?

And this does not happen in the RE model because the earth is a sphere. And RE believes the earth has its own gravity, that is roughly uniform on the surface of the sphere, so atmosphere is "accerated" towards the centre of the earth, thus keeping it there.


I GOT IT! The earth is surrounded by a giant glass dome that holds in the atmosphere.

glass dome? very plauseable, i mean technically when an asteroid hits the earth, it should shatter the dome and we will all suffocate.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: Kasroa Is Gone on March 07, 2007, 08:08:30 AM
As far as I know there is no FE explanation for why the air doesn't escape over the sides. The atmosphere is hundreds of miles thick so there would have to be something keeping it there. Maybe it's another mysterious force like the UA and selective gravity.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 07, 2007, 08:51:27 AM
As far as I know there is no FE explanation for why the air doesn't escape over the sides. The atmosphere is hundreds of miles thick so there would have to be something keeping it there. Maybe it's another mysterious force like the UA and selective gravity.

Look engineer, this is someone who knows what i am talking about. There needs to be something containing the atmosphere.

selective gravity? hhaha. such a thing exists? Is there any proof of this?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 07, 2007, 09:26:08 AM
lol @ lucky trying to host a pic off his computer
Quote
http://c:/Documents%20and%20Settings/Kit/My%20Documents/My%20Pictures

lol@ Engineer being blind to the fact that the atmosphere would leave in a gravity not due to mass and the Earth being flat.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 07, 2007, 09:47:51 AM
so i can't load from my computer??? I need to save it to a URl address?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 07, 2007, 09:48:45 AM
so i can't load from my computer??? I need to save it to a URl address?

yeah, like imageshack or something.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Earth is flat consult faq on March 07, 2007, 09:58:55 AM
lmao wat a retard haha
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: kinereoj on March 07, 2007, 10:06:20 AM
I assume from your FAQ that you are generally familiar with both special and general relativity. I assume that you believe that we are not living in a gravitational field, but in fact an accelerated reference frame. I understand the Equivalence Principle very well. Locally, you cannot do any physical experiment to test the difference between an accelerated reference frame or a gravitational field. However, over large regions you definitely can tell a difference. If the entire earth were an accelerated reference frame, the gravitational field would not vary at all. It wouldn't vary across the surface of the earth, and it wouldn't vary with height. I am a physicist, and I have tested both of these things experimentally. The gravitational field varies across the surface of the earth, due to the different densities of material beneath. The more dramatic field change is that it varies with height. It seems to me that you are also denying that gravity exists at all, which means you are denying the second half of general relativity which explains how mass-energy distorts space-time.

There are also experiments you can do to prove that the earth is spinning. There are measurable Coriolis and Centrifugal forces that change with latitude. These affect projectile motion and are essential in calculating such things as missile trajectories. The direction and magnitude of the measured forces are perfectly consistent with a body the shape of an oblate spheroid rotating about a central axis with a period of one rotation every 24 hours.

I'm not sure if you are denying gravitational affects or not, but don't forget that it is completely possible to measure the gravitational "force" between two masses in a laboratory. I know this, I have done it myself. It's a fairly sophisticated procedure, but it can be done.

The easiest test of geometry would be to measure the circumference and radius of a circle that is confined to the surface of the earth. We should measure the distance around the earth at the equator (circumference), and the radius from the equator to the north pole (radius). If the circumference is exactly 2pi (6.28 . . .) times the radius, we are living on a flat earth. If the circumference is closer to 4 times the radius, we are living on what is close to a spherically shaped earth. If you want to prove to the world that you are correct, you should do this experiment. I would recommend flying in an airplane around the equator at a constant speed and measuring the time it takes to circle it once. Then I would fly from the equator to the North Pole and time that at a constant speed. Does it take 1/4 or 1/6 the amount of time. I'm guessing that it takes you longer to get to the North Pole than you think it would.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Earth is flat consult faq on March 07, 2007, 10:07:37 AM
I assume from your FAQ that you are generally familiar with both special and general relativity. I assume that you believe that we are not living in a gravitational field, but in fact an accelerated reference frame. I understand the Equivalence Principle very well. Locally, you cannot do any physical experiment to test the difference between an accelerated reference frame or a gravitational field. However, over large regions you definitely can tell a difference. If the entire earth were an accelerated reference frame, the gravitational field would not vary at all. It wouldn't vary across the surface of the earth, and it wouldn't vary with height. I am a physicist, and I have tested both of these things experimentally. The gravitational field varies across the surface of the earth, due to the different densities of material beneath. The more dramatic field change is that it varies with height. It seems to me that you are also denying that gravity exists at all, which means you are denying the second half of general relativity which explains how mass-energy distorts space-time.

There are also experiments you can do to prove that the earth is spinning. There are measurable Coriolis and Centrifugal forces that change with latitude. These affect projectile motion and are essential in calculating such things as missile trajectories. The direction and magnitude of the measured forces are perfectly consistent with a body the shape of an oblate spheroid rotating about a central axis with a period of one rotation every 24 hours.

I'm not sure if you are denying gravitational affects or not, but don't forget that it is completely possible to measure the gravitational "force" between two masses in a laboratory. I know this, I have done it myself. It's a fairly sophisticated procedure, but it can be done.

The easiest test of geometry would be to measure the circumference and radius of a circle that is confined to the surface of the earth. We should measure the distance around the earth at the equator (circumference), and the radius from the equator to the north pole (radius). If the circumference is exactly 2pi (6.28 . . .) times the radius, we are living on a flat earth. If the circumference is closer to 4 times the radius, we are living on what is close to a spherically shaped earth. If you want to prove to the world that you are correct, you should do this experiment. I would recommend flying in an airplane around the equator at a constant speed and measuring the time it takes to circle it once. Then I would fly from the equator to the North Pole and time that at a constant speed. Does it take 1/4 or 1/6 the amount of time. I'm guessing that it takes you longer to get to the North Pole than you think it would.

Stop posting huge retarded posts!! No one reads them cause:
1) theyre long
2) theyre boring
3) THEYRE WRONG

now read the faq+ earth: not a globe and GTFO
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 07, 2007, 12:36:45 PM
Therefore when the particle hits the surface of the earth, it will initially be accelerated by the earth, but then as there is a build up of particles they will eventually run off the side of the earth, leaving the atmosphere behind.
You finally got it.  That's what we have been saying all along.  Since we can breathe at altitude, there must be some type of container that restricts the movement of air out of the system.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 07, 2007, 12:37:59 PM

lol@ Engineer being blind to the fact that the atmosphere would leave in a gravity not due to mass and the Earth being flat.

See above.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: sokarul on March 07, 2007, 01:08:33 PM
lol @ container. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 08, 2007, 12:05:52 AM
Therefore when the particle hits the surface of the earth, it will initially be accelerated by the earth, but then as there is a build up of particles they will eventually run off the side of the earth, leaving the atmosphere behind.
You finally got it.  That's what we have been saying all along.  Since we can breathe at altitude, there must be some type of container that restricts the movement of air out of the system.

Finally i got it? What?? i have said the above non stop from the beginning of the subject. And now suddenly you decide a container comes into it?.. which is what i have said FE-ers would need for there theory to be a little pluasable. And as sokural said earlier, a glass dome. What is this "container" according to you?


And btw..
I assume from your FAQ that you are generally familiar with both special and general relativity. I assume that you believe that we are not living in a gravitational field, but in fact an accelerated reference frame. I understand the Equivalence Principle very well. Locally, you cannot do any physical experiment to test the difference between an accelerated reference frame or a gravitational field. However, over large regions you definitely can tell a difference. If the entire earth were an accelerated reference frame, the gravitational field would not vary at all. It wouldn't vary across the surface of the earth, and it wouldn't vary with height. I am a physicist, and I have tested both of these things experimentally. The gravitational field varies across the surface of the earth, due to the different densities of material beneath. The more dramatic field change is that it varies with height. It seems to me that you are also denying that gravity exists at all, which means you are denying the second half of general relativity which explains how mass-energy distorts space-time.

There are also experiments you can do to prove that the earth is spinning. There are measurable Coriolis and Centrifugal forces that change with latitude. These affect projectile motion and are essential in calculating such things as missile trajectories. The direction and magnitude of the measured forces are perfectly consistent with a body the shape of an oblate spheroid rotating about a central axis with a period of one rotation every 24 hours.

I'm not sure if you are denying gravitational affects or not, but don't forget that it is completely possible to measure the gravitational "force" between two masses in a laboratory. I know this, I have done it myself. It's a fairly sophisticated procedure, but it can be done.

The easiest test of geometry would be to measure the circumference and radius of a circle that is confined to the surface of the earth. We should measure the distance around the earth at the equator (circumference), and the radius from the equator to the north pole (radius). If the circumference is exactly 2pi (6.28 . . .) times the radius, we are living on a flat earth. If the circumference is closer to 4 times the radius, we are living on what is close to a spherically shaped earth. If you want to prove to the world that you are correct, you should do this experiment. I would recommend flying in an airplane around the equator at a constant speed and measuring the time it takes to circle it once. Then I would fly from the equator to the North Pole and time that at a constant speed. Does it take 1/4 or 1/6 the amount of time. I'm guessing that it takes you longer to get to the North Pole than you think it would.

Stop posting huge retarded posts!! No one reads them cause:
1) theyre long
2) theyre boring
3) THEYRE WRONG

now read the faq+ earth: not a globe and GTFO

Nice post kinereoj  :D, already in this thread alone lots of those topics have been brought up, and somehow FE-ers try to explain their way out of them.

And to "The Earth is flat consult FAQ", it is you who is the retard. Seeing as you cannot come up with an answer to any of these EXTREMELY VALID arguements. That make perfect sense and are part of what i have trying to tell you throught this 19 page thread.

Now, FE-ers it looks like you have ALOT of explaining to do.

 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: TheEngineer on March 08, 2007, 07:11:22 AM
Finally i got it? What?? i have said the above non stop from the beginning of the subject.
What you have said from the beginning was that air can't be accelerated and that invisible forces can't exist.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 08, 2007, 07:57:51 AM
Finally i got it? What?? i have said the above non stop from the beginning of the subject.
What you have said from the beginning was that air can't be accelerated and that invisible forces can't exist.

Stop putting words in my mouth engineer.

IF your english/ phyics understanding is weak don't put the blame on me.

I did not say that air could not be accelerated. You just read what you wanted to.

 In the FE model the atmosphere would just fall off as the earth is accelerating into it, that it what i maintaned throught my arguement. Therefore there would be no atmosphere left in the FE model. Which is FURTHER PROOF the FE model is flawed.

NOR did i say that invisible forces can't exist. For one i am a strong believer of gravity, which is more than i can say for some people. Did i not give the example of a plane and lift?

But, what force can accelerate gas without being in contact with another body except for gravity?. WHAT IS GIVING THE ATMOSPHERE ENERGY TO ACCELERATE WITH THE EARTH?

Anyway, engineer it seems to me that you have been proven that the earth is spherical by kinereoj. Care to explain how FE gets its way out of this one? Well??? or do you give up?

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 08, 2007, 10:12:41 AM
In the FE model the atmosphere would just fall off as the earth is accelerating into it, that it what i maintaned throught my arguement. Therefore there would be no atmosphere left in the FE model. Which is FURTHER PROOF the FE model is flawed.
DOME. 

But, what force can accelerate gas without being in contact with another body except for gravity?
It sounds like you are saying the Earth is not exerting a force on the atmosphere again.  The Earth is in contact with the atmosphere.  The Earth is accelerating the atmosphere. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on March 08, 2007, 10:47:28 AM
Invisible ice wall invisible dome, good to know.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: MooBs on March 08, 2007, 12:31:28 PM
What is the dome made of? How high is it? Do you have ANY proof of a dome or did u just pull it out of your ass to fit the FE model? Find out NEVER on the FES forums!
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 08, 2007, 02:20:13 PM
The dome is the only possibility for a constant atmosphere over history on a flat Earth, unless all of space is also full of air. 

Do astrophysicists have any proof of dark matter and energy or is it the only possible explanation of galactic rotation and distribution while still keeping the current laws of physics? 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: MooBs on March 08, 2007, 02:39:43 PM
The dome is the only possibility for a constant atmosphere over history on a flat Earth, unless all of space is also full of air. 

Do astrophysicists have any proof of dark matter and energy or is it the only possible explanation of galactic rotation and distribution while still keeping the current laws of physics? 

Do FEers have any proof of dark matter the shadow object or this dome you speak of? Obviously, the dome is easily measurable, send something high into the sky, if it hits something then theres a dome.

Obviously there are many things unknown, people cant measure or observe these and make up theories based on information at the time, unlike a dome.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 08, 2007, 03:06:11 PM
The dome is the only possibility for a constant atmosphere over history on a flat Earth, unless all of space is also full of air. 

Do astrophysicists have any proof of dark matter and energy or is it the only possible explanation of galactic rotation and distribution while still keeping the current laws of physics? 

Then doesn't asteroid = hole in dome = we all should be dead.

i mean... suddenly a "dome" comes into it... when you have a problem with your model. You FE-ers are just making it up as you go along.....

And for some reason FE-ers still refuse to answer the post by kinereoj. I WONDER WHY?

this is just a guess... but maybe because you can't... because the earth is not flat?

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 08, 2007, 05:41:41 PM
Do a search.  The dome idea has been around for a long time.  It is also much bigger than you are assuming.  Here is a to-scale diagram of the FE and sun.  The little speck in the left of center is the sun.  Asteroids are near or above the level of the sun, putting them inside the dome to begin with. 
(http://mattm.zapto.org/images/assem1.jpg)

Do FEers have any proof of dark matter the shadow object or this dome you speak of? Obviously, the dome is easily measurable, send something high into the sky, if it hits something then theres a dome.

Obviously there are many things unknown, people cant measure or observe these and make up theories based on information at the time, unlike a dome.
Do we really have to tell you guys all this stuff over and over again?  Dark matter is your mess, not ours.  Evidence of the shadow object can be seen by looking at the moon.  Evidence of the dome is there every time you breath. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on March 08, 2007, 08:16:05 PM
Do a search.  The dome idea has been around for a long time.  It is also much bigger than you are assuming.  Here is a to-scale diagram of the FE and sun.  The little speck in the left of center is the sun.  Asteroids are near or above the level of the sun, putting them inside the dome to begin with. 
(http://mattm.zapto.org/images/assem1.jpg)

Do FEers have any proof of dark matter the shadow object or this dome you speak of? Obviously, the dome is easily measurable, send something high into the sky, if it hits something then theres a dome.

Obviously there are many things unknown, people cant measure or observe these and make up theories based on information at the time, unlike a dome.
Do we really have to tell you guys all this stuff over and over again?  Dark matter is your mess, not ours.  Evidence of the shadow object can be seen by looking at the moon.  Evidence of the dome is there every time you breath. 

And how did venus cross in front of the sun? 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 08, 2007, 08:43:17 PM
I've never seen it happen so I have little reason to believe it is true. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: sokarul on March 08, 2007, 08:54:15 PM
I've never seen it happen so I have little reason to believe it is true. 

I saw it happen.  I was at school.  They had telescopes set out for people to watch it. 
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 08, 2007, 09:06:20 PM
My telescope would melt.   :(

Luckily I found a NASA photoshoped image of the event for my avatar.
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 09, 2007, 01:05:40 AM
Do a search.  The dome idea has been around for a long time.  It is also much bigger than you are assuming.  Here is a to-scale diagram of the FE and sun.  The little speck in the left of center is the sun.  Asteroids are near or above the level of the sun, putting them inside the dome to begin with. 
(http://mattm.zapto.org/images/assem1.jpg)


If this is true how come it is possible to obtain an asteroid made of iron, that has a different molecular structure to iron formed on the earth? The structure of iron formed in space can be observed to have a differnet arrangement to iron formed on earth because the iron was formed with no oxygen present.

And what exactly do you think asteroids are?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 09, 2007, 07:18:18 PM
looks like the earth is round to me...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: Vauxhall the Vampire on March 09, 2007, 07:19:11 PM
wtf is this thread about?
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lucky on March 10, 2007, 02:39:15 AM
definative proof that the earth is not flat.

And as posted above.... are the many many problems with the FE model that FE-ers cannot explain. Which od further proof the earth is not flat

which means right. The FE model is a load of puppy cock.

And those of yu who think the earth is flat... well, i am not going to try and persuade you otherwise.. but please... open your eyes to the obvious holes inthe FE model that you cannot explain.

Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: EvilToothpaste on March 10, 2007, 07:49:07 AM
And those of yu who think the earth is flat... well, i am not going to try and persuade you otherwise.. but please... open your eyes to the obvious holes inthe FE model that you cannot explain. 

That sounds like attempted persuasion.   :D
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign
Post by: lucky on March 10, 2007, 04:15:44 PM
And those of yu who think the earth is flat... well, i am not going to try and persuade you otherwise.. but please... open your eyes to the obvious holes inthe FE model that you cannot explain. 

That sounds like attempted persuasion.   :D


Well.... obviously FE-ers lose lah... so many flaws in their FE model. Might as well of come out of a science fiction book.... and a cheap one at that...
Title: Re: Do you believe in just about evry astronomical definition, law, or anythign evr?
Post by: lolita18 on June 10, 2009, 07:40:40 PM
See, as I understand it Flat Earthers have a lot of theories explaining the way our universe is devised. This is probably the saddest part of your belief: you're contradicting the most basic laws of physics, making up excuses for giant theoretical flaws, and even disputing fact that came about hundreds of years ago.

First of all, you believe that the Earth is the center of the universe??? How? A guy by the name of Galileo disproved this theory almost 400 years ago! Check out the Copernican Theory of the Universe for the geometric undeniable proof that the Earth is not the center.

Secondly, in your FE model, stars are only a few thousand miles from the Earth? So then I guess that you think suns are half-pluto sized light bulbs that only produce enough energy to power Miami for a day... Wrong. The intense heat from stars being that close to us would immediately destory everything on the planet. Plus, have you ever heard of a supernova? (I know, all government nonsense, right?) If just one star died and it was the farthest star from us in your model the Earth would be engulfed in a wave of heat thousands of degrees above the sun's normal level!

Thirdly, I have heard it stated that you do not believe in gravity. Can this be true? Gravity's precense has been known since the BC era! The reason for gravity is spinning, every atom on Earth has forms of protons, neutrons, and electrons, which all spin. This causes the phenomena of all objects pulling towards each other.
There is alot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_universal_gravitation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_universal_gravitation)) of math behind this too... Either way, if you disagree with the basic laws of gravity, you are also in opposition to all of Quantam physics and much of nuclear physical explanation as well.

Fourthly, you have said that all heavenly bodies are observed in two dimensions, and thus are two dimensional bodies. This is further from the truth than fathomable! The reason for depth (the third dimension) appearing in a picture is because of shadow and lighting.
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m28/Alegoo92/Picture1.png)
In figure A, you see an image as seen through wash lighting, where depth can be shown with shadows on and casted from the object. In space however, depth cannot be observed, because the surroundings of any celestial body are empty and cannot contain light. Without surrounding light, the body's other sides do not reflect and do not appear to exist.
In either case with this, why would so many three dimensional objects exist on our planet while everything else is flat and 2D?

Back to gravity. Your explanation for the absense of gravity is that all bodies in the universe are accelerating upward at 9.8m/s/s. I do understand where your logic was when you formulated this explanation, but it is a completely impossible theory.
When you made this upward acceleration explanation you were basing it off of the current laws of physics.
--
For example, if a man is standing on a platform, and then the platform is sent into the sky, the man will be experience the sensation of becoming heavier due to the verticle air pressure rising. The vertical air pressure (air pressure above and below him, in this case above) is only rising because the air above him is sitting still while he rushes through it.. This combination of air pressure and gravity push and pull at the man so he wiil feel a downward attraction.
--
This is the logic formulated in your 'theory'. In your theory, however, everything is moving, so no downward attraction will be experienced since nothing is sitting to push down on objects. Because of this your theory is null. Also: I don't know where you pulled your numbers from. You said all objects are accelerating at 9.8 m/s/s. Why did you use this number, since it was formulated in coherance with the G-Force Scale (1G).

This is actually a small list of fundamental flaws I found in your beliefs. I also find it very, very odd that you call each other brothers... that's quite cultish of you...

Please! Respond with retorts, comments, support, opposition, idc, but dont leave questions unanswered. And if you find that people are proving you wrong...start to try to believe and let go of what your holding on to so hard...

Alex




Yes, we learned that in our Physics. The law of physics, That the Earth is flat rather than a sphere. But I don't know better what is real.



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