What would change your mind?

As honestly as you can "2. Find out , physically" let us see some of your tu-tube experiment photos proving a horizon isnt visible.

Draw, on a paper why the GEOMTRICAL representation of a circle and triangle on the round earth model doesnt work (not that it exists or not, but merely on its own goemetric merit of circle-triangle).

Then, please draw your representation of what light and where that light comes from, to reach our eyes, and create this theoretical horizon at eye level.    The eye level that can magically adapt at different heights to different vieweers.

There's only two ways to find the truth of something.

1.....To be told something from people who physically know the truth according to their own scientific endeavours.
Basically, it means you have the ability to go and check it out without being impeded.

2. You find out for yourself and verify, physically.

So applying this to the shape of the Earth, the vast majority of people would say they physically know that the Earth is a globe based on the data and information that has come about from the collective scientific endeavours of many, many generations. This scientific endeavour has been aided by technology which has itself been developed as a direct result and a direct consequence of this scientific endeavour. A lot of this data and information might be contrary to what flat Earthers believe so they either have to review whether their beliefs are accurate or simply turn to denial and ignorance as a way of side-stepping it.

It is impossible for any one person to personally find out for themselves and physically verify everything that we have learned to date.  We simply don't live long enough to do that. So a large part of normal learning must be accepting what we are told by others who have had opportunities to do things or go to places that we ourselves haven't. Or as Sceptimatic puts it:

most of which I could not definitively prove to be factual due to the physical nature of finding out would be extremely difficult to almost impossible.....and likely, impossible in some aspects.

Which I think sums up very nicely why this 'I won't accept it unless I can personally prove it' approach is pretty fruitless.

Sceptimatic said, "My point is very simple.

If you want to try and understand an alternative musing/hypothesis/theory or whatever you want to call it....then you can't tangle it with what you already believe.

You have to place whatever you believe to the side and try and see the alternative, even if you 100% disagree with every aspect of it.

If you don't or can't follow it, then you try a better way and try and coax me into providing better analogies and such.
If you want me to put experiments out for you to do and for you to follow,, then ask but don't expect me to put videos up of me doing them.

I'm just trying to be as honest as I can."

Ok, so you're open invitation is to entertain an alternative earth model, which heavily requires the suspension of disbelief. I've been looking hard to see what the advantages are to viewing the world as if the alternative model offered up, is correct.

Can you offer up any advantages?

I mean, a person's frame of mind is unique to the individual. We may empathize with others, but we can never truly understand exactly how another person interprets the world. Or even fully share that experience, even in a relationship with another person.

We can never experience another person's frame of mind, as hard as one might try, if that's what is being asked here. Your ultimate happy place is yours and yours alone, as it is for each of us.

Quote

However, I have many things which I do not accept and I question them

Why?

Because you don't trust anyone else other than yourself or because they are not telling you what you want to believe?

It's not a case of whoever not telling me what I want to believe. It's about asking myself if they actually know what they're telling me, is factual or just simple following a narrative and accepting it, so I must, in their eyes.

Quote

1.....To be told something from people who physically know the truth according to their own scientific endeavours.
Basically, it means you have the ability to go and check it out without being impeded.

2. You find out for yourself and verify, physically.

So going on that logic then every school teacher should be telling their kids at the end of each lesson 'This is what I am telling you but please don't just take my word for it, go and find out for yourself and verify it as true'.  That could get very expensive when it comes to geography lessons!

Every school teacher follows a curriculum. To follow a curriculum they must also study it themselves.
They simple teach kids based on that and anything different to that would render exam results as skewed.

I'm sure you're aware of this.

Quote

If you want to try and understand an alternative musing/hypothesis/theory or whatever you want to call it....then you can't tangle it with what you already believe.
You have to place whatever you believe to the side and try and see the alternative, even if you 100% disagree with every aspect of it.

There needs to be a reason for alternative theories in the first place.  For me one reason would be that existing theories do not explain adequately what we see or experience in the world.  Historically this has happened a lot in science.  That is natural progression and an inevitable consequence of evolution.

Exactly.
To you it's all fine. To me, it isn't.


 

For the majority of situations in the real world, Newtonian gravity is adequate but in certain situations it isn't.

Like what situations?

 That's what Einstein realised and he came up with general relativity.

Explain general relativity so i know it's real. Nice and simple.

  If you try and work out a problem using Einsteins equations you will come to the same answer as you do if you use Newtons equations.

And that is?

Quote

There's only two ways to find the truth of something.

1.....To be told something from people who physically know the truth according to their own scientific endeavours.
Basically, it means you have the ability to go and check it out without being impeded.

2. You find out for yourself and verify, physically.

So applying this to the shape of the Earth, the vast majority of people would say they physically know that the Earth is a globe based on the data and information that has come about from the collective scientific endeavours of many, many generations. This scientific endeavour has been aided by technology which has itself been developed as a direct result and a direct consequence of this scientific endeavour. A lot of this data and information might be contrary to what flat Earthers believe so they either have to review whether their beliefs are accurate or simply turn to denial and ignorance as a way of side-stepping it.

It is impossible for any one person to personally find out for themselves and physically verify everything that we have learned to date.  We simply don't live long enough to do that. So a large part of normal learning must be accepting what we are told by others who have had opportunities to do things or go to places that we ourselves haven't. Or as Sceptimatic puts it:

Quote

most of which I could not definitively prove to be factual due to the physical nature of finding out would be extremely difficult to almost impossible.....and likely, impossible in some aspects.

Which I think sums up very nicely why this 'I won't accept it unless I can personally prove it' approach is pretty fruitless.

It's not about finding out everything we're told. It's about verifying one or two things.

When  person can state facts by showing facts, that's when it's basically nailed on.
All I see with this global stuff is, storylines, CGI and hollywood-esque type films.


You can argue this but you're only arguing based on following a narrative.

Sceptimatic said, "My point is very simple.

If you want to try and understand an alternative musing/hypothesis/theory or whatever you want to call it....then you can't tangle it with what you already believe.

You have to place whatever you believe to the side and try and see the alternative, even if you 100% disagree with every aspect of it.

If you don't or can't follow it, then you try a better way and try and coax me into providing better analogies and such.
If you want me to put experiments out for you to do and for you to follow,, then ask but don't expect me to put videos up of me doing them.

I'm just trying to be as honest as I can."

Ok, so you're open invitation is to entertain an alternative earth model, which heavily requires the suspension of disbelief. I've been looking hard to see what the advantages are to viewing the world as if the alternative model offered up, is correct.

Can you offer up any advantages?

I mean, a person's frame of mind is unique to the individual. We may empathize with others, but we can never truly understand exactly how another person interprets the world. Or even fully share that experience, even in a relationship with another person.

We can never experience another person's frame of mind, as hard as one might try, if that's what is being asked here. Your ultimate happy place is yours and yours alone, as it is for each of us.

Then keep to it and go about your life. Don't let me stop you.

I have no issue answering questions as long as you understand that answering them and you refusing to accept them, is not me refusing to answer.

However, you trying to answer a different question or just claiming to have answered without actually answering, isn't actually answering.

Likewise, providing a non-answer, which doesn't address the issue is not answering.

And you certainly seem to have very serious issues with answering simple questions, at least those which show you are wrong.
For example, a simple question about why the RE wouldn't have a horizon, which popped up right near the start of this thread, which you still can't answer.

To answer you You'd have to try and see the simple stuff from my side and push aside (for the time being) the stuff you believe of authority.

Like by asking you simple questions, to clarify your position and have you explain things in reality.
Unfortunately, as soon as that stars showing your claims are wrong, you see this as an attack.

I know I am getting no where with your nonsense because you can't seem to make it go past square 1.
You have been stuck there, right from the start.

I'm just trying to be as honest as I can.

Pure BS.
If you were, you would either clearly explain why you think the RE shouldn't have a horizon, or you would admit that you have no basis for your claim and that you were mistaken to have made it.
This entire thread has been an exercise in dishonesty for you, with you continually misrepresenting the RE and reality, and dismissing or ignoring everything that shows you are wrong.

When  person can state facts by showing facts, that's when it's basically nailed on.
All I see with this global stuff is, storylines, CGI and hollywood-esque type films.

You mean by showing facts you dismiss as fake or ignore entirely, because they don't fit your worldview.


Now again, can you explain why the RE doesn't have a horizon, when all logic shows it should?
The only reason this appears as an attack to you, is because you can't answer it and don't want to admit you are wrong.

Pure BS.

You're more than entitled to think that.

Quote from: JackBlack on March 27, 2021, 02:35:01 AM

Pure BS.

You're more than entitled to think that.

Yes, for the reasons I have explained, which you have ignored like usual.

Now again, have you figured out why the RE shouldn't have a horizon?
Again, if you were honest you would explain why or admit there is no reason to think that.

Again, if you were honest you would explain why or admit there is no reason to think that.

Think what?

Quote from: JackBlack on March 27, 2021, 02:45:47 AM

Now again, have you figured out why the RE shouldn't have a horizon?
Again, if you were honest you would explain why or admit there is no reason to think that.

Think what?

Stop playing dumb.
It is quite obvious what I was referring to.
It was made quite clear in the statement you dishonestly removed, which I have added back, highlighted in red.

Now again, can you justify your claim that the RE, i.e. the globe, should not have a horizon? If not, can you be honest enough to admit you have no basis for your claim?

Stop playing dumb.

I'm always playing dumb, according to you, which you're well entitled to think, so why are you telling me to stop, which you're also entitled to say. I'm just asking for a friend.

Quote from: JackBlack on March 27, 2021, 02:54:08 AM

Stop playing dumb.

I'm always playing dumb, according to you, which you're well entitled to think, so why are you telling me to stop, which you're also entitled to say. I'm just asking for a friend.

Because I want you to actually defend your claims.
The real question is why do you continue to play dumb?
Why are you here at all if you just continually play dumb to pretend there is a problem for RE when there is not?
Why don't you be honest for once and admit the RE does have a horizon?
Otherwise, justify your blatant lie that it shouldn't.

Because I want you to actually defend your claims.

You just want an argument.

Quote from: JackBlack on March 27, 2021, 03:10:33 AM

Because I want you to actually defend your claims.

You just want an argument.

No, I care about the truth.
So if people make a bold, outrageous claim, I want them to back it up.
If they can, I will accept it.
If they can't, and instead continually deflect, I will keep pushing for a justification.

Again, why are you so against defending your own claims?
Why do you continually refuse to back them up?

Why are you apparently incapable of justifying your claim that the RE would not have a horizon?

No, I care about the truth.
So if people make a bold, outrageous claim, I want them to back it up.

I agree. If people push out something as being fact they should back it up.
I'm no doing that but I am calling out the global ideals and you are backing them by saying they are facts.
So how about you back them up without using appeals to authority.

Quote from: JackBlack on March 27, 2021, 11:56:27 PM

No, I care about the truth.
So if people make a bold, outrageous claim, I want them to back it up.

I agree. If people push out something as being fact they should back it up.
I'm no doing that but I am calling out the global ideals and you are backing them by saying they are facts.
So how about you back them up without using appeals to authority.

Can you provide some examples of how perceiving the earth as a giant cell, is useful? Ok, how has it been useful to you?

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 28, 2021, 12:14:10 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on March 27, 2021, 11:56:27 PM

No, I care about the truth.
So if people make a bold, outrageous claim, I want them to back it up.

I agree. If people push out something as being fact they should back it up.
I'm no doing that but I am calling out the global ideals and you are backing them by saying they are facts.
So how about you back them up without using appeals to authority.

Can you provide some examples of how perceiving the earth as a giant cell, is useful? Ok, how has it been useful to you?

I'll let you use your own logic to understand that.
Here's a clue:
If I believe it to be a cell then I believe I live in that cell. I'll let you go to your logical brain and decipher why that would be useful to me.

If people push out something as being fact they should back it up.

So when you push out a claim that the RE doesn't have a horizon as a fact, as you have done repeatedly, you should back it up.

Unless you would like to explicitly state that you are not giving that out as a fact and instead it is an entirely baseless claim from you?

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 28, 2021, 12:14:10 AM

If people push out something as being fact they should back it up.

So when you push out a claim that the RE doesn't have a horizon as a fact, as you have done repeatedly, you should back it up.

Unless you would like to explicitly state that you are not giving that out as a fact and instead it is an entirely baseless claim from you?

You should be able to back up your claims but you can't.

Quote from: JackBlack on March 28, 2021, 04:34:48 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 28, 2021, 12:14:10 AM

If people push out something as being fact they should back it up.

So when you push out a claim that the RE doesn't have a horizon as a fact, as you have done repeatedly, you should back it up.

Unless you would like to explicitly state that you are not giving that out as a fact and instead it is an entirely baseless claim from you?

You should be able to back up your claims but you can't.

Stop deflecting.
Are you claiming that it is a fact that the RE shouldn't have a horizon, or is this just your baseless claim?

If you are claiming it as a fact, then justify it.
If you are not claiming it as a fact, then admit you are not, by explicitly stating it is not a fact.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on March 28, 2021, 12:32:39 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 28, 2021, 12:14:10 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on March 27, 2021, 11:56:27 PM

No, I care about the truth.
So if people make a bold, outrageous claim, I want them to back it up.

I agree. If people push out something as being fact they should back it up.
I'm no doing that but I am calling out the global ideals and you are backing them by saying they are facts.
So how about you back them up without using appeals to authority.

Can you provide some examples of how perceiving the earth as a giant cell, is useful? Ok, how has it been useful to you?

I'll let you use your own logic to understand that.
Here's a clue:
If I believe it ot be a cell then I believe I live in that cell. I'll let you go to your logical brain and decipher why that would be useful to me.

I'm not the best when it comes to puzzles. I'm too impatient.

Could you please explain how your perception of living inside a giant cell, is useful to to you? If I take a stab in the dark and guess it's because everything inside a cell which would include each of us, is programmed to perform a specific function for the cell, I just know you are going to tell me I'm wrong.

Fair well all... I'm through posting on this website.  Wasted enough time. 

Nothing is ever a complete waste of time, solar wind. Thanks for sticking in there so long!

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 28, 2021, 12:37:20 AM

Quote from: Smoke Machine on March 28, 2021, 12:32:39 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 28, 2021, 12:14:10 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on March 27, 2021, 11:56:27 PM

No, I care about the truth.
So if people make a bold, outrageous claim, I want them to back it up.

I agree. If people push out something as being fact they should back it up.
I'm no doing that but I am calling out the global ideals and you are backing them by saying they are facts.
So how about you back them up without using appeals to authority.

Can you provide some examples of how perceiving the earth as a giant cell, is useful? Ok, how has it been useful to you?

I'll let you use your own logic to understand that.
Here's a clue:
If I believe it ot be a cell then I believe I live in that cell. I'll let you go to your logical brain and decipher why that would be useful to me.

I'm not the best when it comes to puzzles. I'm too impatient.

Could you please explain how your perception of living inside a giant cell, is useful to to you? If I take a stab in the dark and guess it's because everything inside a cell which would include each of us, is programmed to perform a specific function for the cell, I just know you are going to tell me I'm wrong.

If you really want to jump right down the rabbit hole then just think of yourself as being one part of a bacterial spread among many like you and you also consisting of cells that are also holding similar.

It's just a case of how small do they go and how big do they grow.

The cell we are in is possibly a tiny one in the grand scheme of things that we will never find out, in terms of what this Earth cell is actually part of.

My best guess is, it's part of more cells like it, holding similar stuff as mentioned.

What do all those make up?
Maybe another huge organism.

I could go on but it doesn't really solve anything from our perspective.

You see, I don't put any of this out as factual but simple experiments and a lot of what we gather about life can be pieced together like a jigsaw to show potential fits and in time, a real potential outline as to what reality can be, in terms of gathered evidence that makes a better fit.


This may be gobbledygook to you and I have no issue with that.
You go with an oblate spheroid in a vacuum with scattered particles, among other spheres among scattered particles and yet this spheroid is doing elliptical orbits around a burning ball of fire with a ball of rock just orbiting the spheroid...and so on and so on and so on....for no apparent reason.


Stuff argued about vacuums creating zero resistance to anything but some amazing force managing to keep everything moving and orbiting in elliptical travel...and so on and so on.


You feel free to accept that. This is what you're taught so, in a way, why wouldn't you think that way?



People can look around and argue about us having houses and building grids for power and factories and what not...and argue that we can't be just a bacterial spread in a cell growth/decay.

It's all about how each individual wants to look at it and how much of a step outside of the box a person is willing to make against peers pushing that person back in.

If you really want to jump right down the rabbit hole

In order to do that, you would need to start explaining, and you still haven't explained what magic prevents the RE from having a horizon; unless you are willing to admit that that claim of yours is not factual.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 29, 2021, 02:09:07 AM

If you really want to jump right down the rabbit hole

In order to do that, you would need to start explaining, and you still haven't explained what magic prevents the RE from having a horizon; unless you are willing to admit that that claim of yours is not factual.

What claim?

Quote from: JackBlack on March 29, 2021, 04:12:11 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 29, 2021, 02:09:07 AM

If you really want to jump right down the rabbit hole

In order to do that, you would need to start explaining, and you still haven't explained what magic prevents the RE from having a horizon; unless you are willing to admit that that claim of yours is not factual.

What claim?

The claim clearly placed directly before, where you falsely claim that the RE (i.e. the globe), can't have a horizon.
Stop playing dumb and address this.
Either justify the claim that the RE can't have a horizon, or admit that it is not a factual claim.

Sceptimatic, what makes you think I'm so narrow minded?

You see the world as a hierarchy. I see the world as a hierarchy.

That's something we share in common.

The difference is, I don't see it as necessary for this hierarchy to physically resemble cells of living organisms here on earth.

I see the hierarchy as a hierarchy of invisible energy behind the physical world.

Your body, for instance, while it is made of cells, those cells form 78 organs of your body which work in coordination to form organ systems.

Then, you. You are part of a group of humans on the earth, which is part of larger groups, and so on.

If you choose to continue to look at earth as a living entity which functions as part of a larger system it's a small step for you to see the larger system as our solar system. The sun is the nucleus. Our solar system which is part of a group of solar systems.....

Life then becomes all about function.

The claim clearly placed directly before, where you falsely claim that the RE (i.e. the globe), can't have a horizon.
Stop playing dumb and address this.
Either justify the claim that the RE can't have a horizon, or admit that it is not a factual claim.

Already been addressed. You don't accept it and fair enough.