What would change your mind?

I would be interested to know where Scepti thinks lava and magma comes from.  The fact that rock is molten when it reaches the surface from deep underground offers us some information what what conditions are like underneath I would have thought...

What are we supposed to do, stick a long pole into the ground, pull it back up and then touch the end to see if its hot or not?

What would be helpful is if he could draw what we see as the "horizon"


Or
If he could identify just what is wrong with ciecles and triangles.

Well its obvious to me and probably everyone else apart from you.  I can't help you with your own ignorance or denial issues.

It appears you don't know what it's evidence of, this is why you're sidestepping it.

What would be helpful is if he could draw what we see as the "horizon"


Or
If he could identify just what is wrong with ciecles and triangles.

It might be wiser if you can identify what you're trying to say.

It appears you don't know what it's evidence of, this is why you're sidestepping it.

By all means enlighten me.  Sorry for appearing to be so dumb but I simply don't have the same imagination that you do.

Quote

It appears you don't know what it's evidence of, this is why you're sidestepping it.

By all means enlighten me.  Sorry for appearing to be so dumb but I simply don't have the same imagination that you do.

You claim, it's evidence. Evidence of what?
You appear to know and call me for saying I don't. So tell me what the evidence is?

Well lets see now.  Thermometers in the lift shaft, at the surface and and at the bottom of the pit indicate a rise in temperature as you go downwards.  That is evidence I would say that as you go further underground the temperature rises.

What could you attribute that to given that there are no radiators at the bottom of the pit?

Evidence is not about knowing or not knowing. It's about reaching a hypothesis. What we do know is that the temperature rises as you go further and further underground.  What is that evidence for?  Well it would appear that there is a heat source even further underground.

Next we have to identify what other evidence is available to either support or dis-spell that hypothesis.  Our current models for the origin of the Earth include the hypothesis that early in its history the Earth was much hotter than it is today with the heat focused or concentrated in the core where the pressures and densities were greatest.  The fact that temperature measurements as you go down into a coal mine show a gradual rise in temperature would seem to be consistent with what we would expect from that model.

Well lets see now.  Thermometers in the lift shaft, at the surface and and at the bottom of the pit indicate a rise in temperature as you go downwards.  That is evidence I would say that as you go further underground the temperature rises.

What could you attribute that to given that there are no radiators at the bottom of the pit?

So, basically you're just assuming it gets hotter the deeper you go and you are of the understanding that we can't seem to drill deeper than a few miles, right?


Admit you have no clue about what is below a few miles.

It's all acceptance on what people tell you, who also have no clue but stories to tell.


If you actually know then explain to me how you know?

So, basically you're just assuming it gets hotter the deeper you go

No I'm not assuming.  I have measured a consistent rise in temperature as I have gone deeper down the coal mine.  So that would indicate a heat source further down (as I have just said). 

So can you offer me a logical reason why that trend should not continue the deeper you go?

Lava and magma from volcanoes comes up from deeper down than any coal mine would and that is clearly very hot.  So that would also be evidence that the heating trend continues.

Quote

So, basically you're just assuming it gets hotter the deeper you go

No I'm not assuming.  I have measured a consistent rise in temperature as I have gone deeper down the coal mine.  So that would indicate a heat source further down (as I have just said). 

So can you offer me a logical reason why that trend should not continue the deeper you go?

Lava and magma from volcanoes comes up from deeper down than any coal mine would and that is clearly very hot.  So that would also be evidence that the heating trend continues.

How deep was the mine?

I must admit I didn't measure it at the time but a quick check on the website tells me 300 ft.

I must admit I didn't measure it at the time but a quick check on the website tells me 300 ft.

So, basically you're not collecting data on the deeper you go the more you know about Earth, except for 300 feet at depth of your mine.

A few miles drilling and that's about it for the rest of humanity in knowing what's beyond. Obviously guesswork can ensue but that's all it is .


Feel free to believe what's further down, obviously. I'm simply just saying there's no evidence of what we are told about Earth as in the diagrams to the supposed core, go.

Whatever you say buddy...  whatever you say.  How would you account for the rise in temperature?  I'm sure it has got something to do with air or atmospheric pressure as it always does.

Whatever you say buddy...  whatever you say.  How would you account for the rise in temperature?  I'm sure it has got something to do with air or atmospheric pressure as it always does.

Just accept you don't know.

Quote from: Solarwind on March 25, 2021, 07:30:38 AM

I must admit I didn't measure it at the time but a quick check on the website tells me 300 ft.

So, basically you're not collecting data on the deeper you go the more you know about Earth, except for 300 feet at depth of your mine.

A few miles drilling and that's about it for the rest of humanity in knowing what's beyond. Obviously guesswork can ensue but that's all it is .


Feel free to believe what's further down, obviously. I'm simply just saying there's no evidence of what we are told about Earth as in the diagrams to the supposed core, go.

Replace solars claims with your claims and then followed by your response.

see any hypocrisy?
None?
No issue?

try a search of [ deep borehole ] to see how far we have gone and why we stoped.

Quote from: Solarwind on March 25, 2021, 07:30:38 AM

I must admit I didn't measure it at the time but a quick check on the website tells me 300 ft.

So, basically you're not collecting data on the deeper you go the more you know about Earth, except for 300 feet at depth of your mine.

A few miles drilling and that's about it for the rest of humanity in knowing what's beyond. Obviously guesswork can ensue but that's all it is .


Feel free to believe what's further down, obviously. I'm simply just saying there's no evidence of what we are told about Earth as in the diagrams to the supposed core, go.

The deepest mines are around 4 km deep and are around 150 degrees. They have to be cooled.
When I was 1,500 feet down it was warmer than outside but air was also forced in for ventilation. Plus water would seep in.

Just accept you don't know.

According to you I don't know anything.  Well if that's what you want to think then fair enough.  But that's coming from someone who 'knows' that the Sun and Moon are holographic projections.  So I won't take your comments too seriously.  You will no doubt insist that you have never presented that as 'fact' but rather just what you believe. But if anyone tries to offer any alternatives you dismiss it as silly nonsense.

So what is your view on why the temperature goes up as you travel down a mine shaft then eh?  If I don't know then perhaps you could tell me because you obviously think you know the answer.

Obviously guesswork can ensue but that's all it is .

No, it isn't.
Guesswork would be like what you do, where you make up random BS with no regard for the evidence.
Instead what mankind has done with science is use other means to determine what is below.
It is not simply guesswork.

Now quit the pathetic deflection and answer the question you have been avoiding almost from the start of this thread.
What magic prevents the RE from having a horizon?

Your continued deflection shows you likely know you are spouting pure BS.

"Guess work"
Guesswork sure fine if you want to say.
These are educated gueswork that result in predictably repeatable results and patterns.

What you got for your "musings"?
Can you tell me how many windings of copper are required to create enough crushing vortex vibrations to make my E motor spin?

Quote from: Smoke Machine on March 25, 2021, 12:48:07 AM

What makes you think I haven't? Yeah, I do think I'm descending into a hot globe when I go down a deep mine shaft. You should try it sometime. Better still, go and tour an erupting volcano, then get back to us as to what you think molten lava is all about, and where it comes from? The surface of earth has been fully mapped.

You've been to a lot of places. 

So your mine shaft is hot as all hell whereas ours are as cold as all hell for most part.
The surface of your Earth has been fully mapped, in your mind because of stories told...and that's it.
But,a s far as we are all told we can't drill more than a few miles into the Earth to gain any knowledge of what's down, so it's based on guesswork and passed out as knowing what the Earth is in it's entirety.

If you want to stick to those stories and recite them as and when the issue comes up...feel free, but remember you are only regurgitating what's put into your mind....nothing more.

Quote from: Smoke

Go to your local library and read a book on science every week, and at the end of that week, do your best to refute that book, with your understanding of the earth geosystem.
 Do it for a whole year. That will be 52 books.

Ahhhh, which shelf? Fact or fiction?

How do I ascertain, fact?
Do I read 52 books on a fact shelf and know they are 52 books of fact? Or do I have to assume they're all fact?
Do you assume they're all fact?

If I ask you any question about Earth and your space, you can answer.
Why?
You have enough references to give an answer and you think that makes you smart. It means you can parrot and regurgitate.

You could likely go to a star trek convention, or something on those tracks and ask certain people about star trek. I'd bet many would answer your questions without referencing anything otehr than the filing cabinet inside their brain, titled "star trek."

Does this make star trek a fact?

Quote from: Smoke

It won't hurt you and couldn't make you any dumber. Give it a go! It would change your life and not cost you a cent.

'll leave that stuff to the likes of yourself.

You see? This might partly all be a cultural barrier. You know I live in Australia in Queensland, but I haven't got a clue where you live. I guess the mines where you live, don't go very deep?

Queensland has a few very deep mine shafts. Mt Isa's copper mine, the enterprise, goes 1.5kms underground. Oh, and the temperature does go up. You can actually do a tour and experience it first hand if you like?

Earth has been fully mapped in my mind and in reality, because I've seen the maps. I've seen the photos. I've seen the videos. There aren't too many places left on earth's surface, people haven't been to, or close to.

I've told you how you can prove the earth's shape to yourself with a helium balloon and go-pro camera, but you're never interested in the experiments I suggest.

Science books are usually categorized in the fact section, sceptimatic. You probably reverse fact and fiction in your mind when you enter a library, I dunno. No, reading those books won't increase your IQ and make you smarter, but they will make you more knowledgeable. They will also activate areas of your brain, you don't usually use.

I'm not asking you to assume the contents of those books are all fact, I'm asking you to read them, and compare them with the world you observe around you. Most science books will give you practical experiments to conduct.

I mean, I take the Mickey out of you quite regularly, but there must have been a time you studied science in school like we each did.

It's all acceptance on what people tell you, who also have no clue but stories to tell.

What better information do you have about your world other than it's just what you believe? What evidence can you produce that shows how your 'theory' of the Sun and Moon being holograms is actually correct? Someone who is full of contradictions, someone who denies what you've already claimed when it is pointed out to you how you have changed your mind.  Etc etc. 

At least what I talk about can be backed up with evidence. Whether you accept it as evidence is irrelevant. Evidence to you is 'does it back up what I believe?' if yes it is evidence if no it is just silly nonsense. 

You've seen volcanoes erupting yes?  So where does the lava and magma come from that we see spirting out of volcanoes?  Where does the heat come from the melts the rock that produces the lava?  Given your theories about everything else I can't wait to hear what you think lava is and where it comes from. To everyone else it is evidence that Earth is pretty hot internally.  We can see that without having to drill down anywhere.

Well lets see now.  Thermometers in the lift shaft, at the surface and and at the bottom of the pit indicate a rise in temperature as you go downwards.  That is evidence I would say that as you go further underground the temperature rises.

What could you attribute that to given that there are no radiators at the bottom of the pit?

Evidence is not about knowing or not knowing. It's about reaching a hypothesis. What we do know is that the temperature rises as you go further and further underground.  What is that evidence for?  Well it would appear that there is a heat source even further underground.

Next we have to identify what other evidence is available to either support or dis-spell that hypothesis.  Our current models for the origin of the Earth include the hypothesis that early in its history the Earth was much hotter than it is today with the heat focused or concentrated in the core where the pressures and densities were greatest.  The fact that temperature measurements as you go down into a coal mine show a gradual rise in temperature would seem to be consistent with what we would expect from that model.

If you want to argue about lift shafts getting warmer where you are, then fair enough.
What you can't prove is your Earth having what the pictures show. It's all massive guesswork.

  I take the Mickey out of you quite regularly

I hadn't noticed.

Quote

It's all acceptance on what people tell you, who also have no clue but stories to tell.

What better information do you have about your world other than it's just what you believe? What evidence can you produce that shows how your 'theory' of the Sun and Moon being holograms is actually correct? Someone who is full of contradictions, someone who denies what you've already claimed when it is pointed out to you how you have changed your mind.  Etc etc. 

At least what I talk about can be backed up with evidence. Whether you accept it as evidence is irrelevant. Evidence to you is 'does it back up what I believe?' if yes it is evidence if no it is just silly nonsense. 

You've seen volcanoes erupting yes?  So where does the lava and magma come from that we see spirting out of volcanoes?  Where does the heat come from the melts the rock that produces the lava?  Given your theories about everything else I can't wait to hear what you think lava is and where it comes from. To everyone else it is evidence that Earth is pretty hot internally.  We can see that without having to drill down anywhere.

How about you tell me where the lava comes from.

How about you just answer the questions I asked rather than trying to deflect all the time? If you don't know then just say so.

You keep on telling us to accept that we don't know this and we don't know that.  How do you know what you think you know?  What evidence do you use to decide what you say you do know or don't know? This claim you keep making about the Sun and Moon being holograms.  Is that something you would say you know or just something you believe?  And what evidence do you base that on?

How about you just answer the questions I asked rather than trying to deflect all the time? If you don't know then just say so.

I have no issue answering questions as long as you understand that answering them and you refusing to accept them, is not me refusing to answer.

Get your head around that and you'll understand more, even if you never agree.
The same has to apply to you.

You keep on telling us to accept that we don't know this and we don't know that.

I do keep telling you because it's the truth.
You might very well know what the books and authority tell you and be able to recite some of it you absorb into your head  but physically you are in the dark with a lot of it.

  How do you know what you think you know?
What evidence do you use to decide what you say you do know or don't know? This claim you keep making about the Sun and Moon being holograms.  Is that something you would say you know or just something you believe?
 And what evidence do you base that on?

 It starts from the bottom.
To answer you You'd have to try and see the simple stuff from my side and push aside (for the time being) the stuff you believe of authority.
To go into denial of anything  say is to set yourself back to square one. Kabool does it regularly.
Jackblack simple attacks and thinks he's getting somewhere.

JJA is similar.
Don't follow their path...follow your own.

Before you even bother dealing with what I say, understand that I'm answering questions from my side and naturally they go against the side you take....sooooo, the second I answer one question and you immediately go into denial, it means you're simply using your own belief to counteract what I'm saying and losing the purpose of actually asking the question in the first place.


If you want to do the jigsaw then be prepared to put your pieces out from the jumble and try to fit those pieces in from my side.

That's the best advice I can give you other than to say ......or.....just cast me off as a nutter and imbecile and be done with me.

OK you asked me where lava comes from.  Lets say I answer and say I don't know other than somewhere underground apparently.

We will assume for the time being that all the books I have read by people who have spent their lives extensively studying volcanoes in various parts of the world and all the documentaries I have seen and the geology teacher I had for two years are all lying to me.

I don't consider any of those being part of any 'authority' as you call it.  Just individuals who are keen to learn about the world and the environment they live in.

How do you propose I find out where lava comes from?   

OK you asked me where lava comes from.  Lets say I answer and say I don't know. We will assume for the time being that all the books I have read by people who have spent their lives extensively studying volcanoes in various parts of the world and all the documentaries I have seen and the geology teacher I had for two years are all lying to me. I don't consider any of those being part of any 'authority' as you call it.  Just individuals who are keen to learn about the world and the environment they live in.

How do you propose I find out where lava comes from?

You're missing my point.
You have every right to believe what you're told. You have every right to believe all you read. And you have every right to feel your absorbed to mind answers are your very own understanding of what you believe of those who study whatever it is that is passed to you through books or verbal...etc.

There's only two ways to find the truth of something.

1.....To be told something from people who physically know the truth according to their own scientific endeavours.
Basically, it means you have the ability to go and check it out without being impeded.

2. You find out for yourself and verify, physically.


Anything else is acceptance of stories told if you are not allowed access to the workings.
Basically you believe on face value, which isn't a bad thing.
After all we basically go with the flow of life which includes lots of face value acceptance...including myself.


However, I have many things which I do not accept and I question them and come to my own musings on potential alternatives....most of which I could not definitively prove to be factual due to the physical nature of finding out would be extremely difficult to almost impossible.....and likely, impossible in some aspects.


So, it comes down to best guesswork from my side and from your side it comes down to your best belief's from what you're told....especially with what we are debating.

My point is very simple.
If you want to try and understand an alternative musing/hypothesis/theory or whatever you want to call it....then you can't tangle it with what you already believe.
You have to place whatever you believe to the side and try and see the alternative, even if you 100% disagree with every aspect of it.

If you don't or can't follow it, then you try a better way and try and coax me into providing better analogies and such.
If you want me to put experiments out for you to do and for you to follow,, then ask but don't expect me to put videos up of me doing them.

I'm just trying to be as honest as I can.

However, I have many things which I do not accept and I question them

Why?

Because you don't trust anyone else other than yourself or because they are not telling you what you want to believe?

1.....To be told something from people who physically know the truth according to their own scientific endeavours.
Basically, it means you have the ability to go and check it out without being impeded.

2. You find out for yourself and verify, physically.

So going on that logic then every school teacher should be telling their kids at the end of each lesson 'This is what I am telling you but please don't just take my word for it, go and find out for yourself and verify it as true'.  That could get very expensive when it comes to geography lessons!

If you want to try and understand an alternative musing/hypothesis/theory or whatever you want to call it....then you can't tangle it with what you already believe.
You have to place whatever you believe to the side and try and see the alternative, even if you 100% disagree with every aspect of it.

There needs to be a reason for alternative theories in the first place.  For me one reason would be that existing theories do not explain adequately what we see or experience in the world.  Historically this has happened a lot in science.  That is natural progression and an inevitable consequence of evolution. 

For the majority of situations in the real world, Newtonian gravity is adequate but in certain situations it isn't.  That's what Einstein realised and he came up with general relativity.  If you try and work out a problem using Einsteins equations you will come to the same answer as you do if you use Newtons equations.