A recent epigraph of Username

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marco mineri

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A recent epigraph of Username
« on: May 18, 2025, 05:28:26 AM »
Quote
"They won't listen. Do you know why? Because they have certain fixed notions ... Any change would be blasphemy in their eyes, even if it were the truth. They don't want the truth; they want their traditions."

This was a perfect depiction (intentional or not?) of flat-earthers. Who appeal to ancient civilizations that regarded the Earth as flat. Who quote the Book of Enoch as a reliable source.

While, on the other side:

Who breaks with the traditional idea of an Earth at the center of the universe? Copernicus.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of planets' orbits being necessarily circular? Kepler.

Who breaks with the traditional (Aristotelian) idea of bodies of different weight falling at different rates? Galileo.

Who introduces the totally non-traditional idea of action at a distance? Newton.

Who introduces the totally non-traditional idea of light being an undulation? Huygens.

Who breaks with the traditional theory of phlogiston? Lavoisier.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of animal species being fixed and immutable? Darwin.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of spontaneous generation of life? Pasteur.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of an absolute time? Einstein.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of geometry of space being necessarily Euclidean? Einstein, again (but already a century before the great mathematician Gauss had posed the question and had set out to measure the angles defined by three mountaintops, to see whether their sum was indeed 180°).

Who breaks with the traditional idea of a universe being static and basically unchanging with time? Hubble and Lemaître.

Not to mention quantum mechanics, where the traditional, natural and apparently self-evident idea that a particle, at any given time, has a definite position in space must be totally abandoned.

So now, WHO is desperately clinging to their traditions?


Indeed, that's why science is hated by so many. It disrupts traditional, comfortable ideas and beliefs. Like that nature is still an “out there”, stronger than us, against which we can manly fight without the fear of “toppling the boat” - that is, polluting the environment, destroying ecosystems, exhausting natural resources, altering the very climate of the planet. No more dreaming of ever bigger cars? No, it MUST be a conspiracy, like the Covid hoax, like the vaccine scam, like the 15-minutes cities, to keep us caged and controlled!

As so many times in history. Famines were caused by hoarders, plagues by “untori” (plague spreaders) or Jews, other natural calamities by some inconsiderate member of the community who had somehow offended the gods. It's always been highly comfortable to think that it's enough to get rid of the offender or to topple the conspiracy to get everything all right again.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: A recent epigraph of Username
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2025, 10:31:42 AM »
Quote
"They won't listen. Do you know why? Because they have certain fixed notions ... Any change would be blasphemy in their eyes, even if it were the truth. They don't want the truth; they want their traditions."

This was a perfect depiction (intentional or not?) of flat-earthers. Who appeal to ancient civilizations that regarded the Earth as flat. Who quote the Book of Enoch as a reliable source.

While, on the other side:

Who breaks with the traditional idea of an Earth at the center of the universe? Copernicus.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of planets' orbits being necessarily circular? Kepler.

Who breaks with the traditional (Aristotelian) idea of bodies of different weight falling at different rates? Galileo.

Who introduces the totally non-traditional idea of action at a distance? Newton.

Who introduces the totally non-traditional idea of light being an undulation? Huygens.

Who breaks with the traditional theory of phlogiston? Lavoisier.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of animal species being fixed and immutable? Darwin.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of spontaneous generation of life? Pasteur.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of an absolute time? Einstein.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of geometry of space being necessarily Euclidean? Einstein, again

Logical fallacy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty

Just as there is a appeal to tradition (claiming that people have "known" better than Flat Earth since  Eratosthenes), the appeal to novelty claims these people are trendsetters.

But are they? Or are they the Mr Smiths of the Matrix lie that we now live in? Neithrr novelty, nor traditon, nor popular belief, nor what outstanding experts say is a valid measure of an idea.

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JackBlack

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Re: A recent epigraph of Username
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2025, 01:44:36 PM »
Logical fallacy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty
No, its not.
They are not saying the RE model is true because it is new.
They are saying FEers are clinging to their beliefs regardless of what evidence shows they are wrong.
Any change to the idea that Earth is flat would be blasphemy in your eyes, even though it can't work at all.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: A recent epigraph of Username
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2025, 03:33:25 PM »

Just as there is a appeal to tradition

Actually, the heliocentric solar system leads to new things like accelerometers so smart phones can use gravity to determine down.

While FE is pretty much useless.

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Username

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Re: A recent epigraph of Username
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2025, 05:34:30 PM »
Quote
"They won't listen. Do you know why? Because they have certain fixed notions ... Any change would be blasphemy in their eyes, even if it were the truth. They don't want the truth; they want their traditions."

This was a perfect depiction (intentional or not?) of flat-earthers. Who appeal to ancient civilizations that regarded the Earth as flat. Who quote the Book of Enoch as a reliable source.

While, on the other side:

Who breaks with the traditional idea of an Earth at the center of the universe? Copernicus.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of planets' orbits being necessarily circular? Kepler.

Who breaks with the traditional (Aristotelian) idea of bodies of different weight falling at different rates? Galileo.

Who introduces the totally non-traditional idea of action at a distance? Newton.

Who introduces the totally non-traditional idea of light being an undulation? Huygens.

Who breaks with the traditional theory of phlogiston? Lavoisier.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of animal species being fixed and immutable? Darwin.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of spontaneous generation of life? Pasteur.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of an absolute time? Einstein.

Who breaks with the traditional idea of geometry of space being necessarily Euclidean? Einstein, again (but already a century before the great mathematician Gauss had posed the question and had set out to measure the angles defined by three mountaintops, to see whether their sum was indeed 180°).

Who breaks with the traditional idea of a universe being static and basically unchanging with time? Hubble and Lemaître.

Not to mention quantum mechanics, where the traditional, natural and apparently self-evident idea that a particle, at any given time, has a definite position in space must be totally abandoned.

So now, WHO is desperately clinging to their traditions?


Indeed, that's why science is hated by so many. It disrupts traditional, comfortable ideas and beliefs. Like that nature is still an “out there”, stronger than us, against which we can manly fight without the fear of “toppling the boat” - that is, polluting the environment, destroying ecosystems, exhausting natural resources, altering the very climate of the planet. No more dreaming of ever bigger cars? No, it MUST be a conspiracy, like the Covid hoax, like the vaccine scam, like the 15-minutes cities, to keep us caged and controlled!

As so many times in history. Famines were caused by hoarders, plagues by “untori” (plague spreaders) or Jews, other natural calamities by some inconsiderate member of the community who had somehow offended the gods. It's always been highly comfortable to think that it's enough to get rid of the offender or to topple the conspiracy to get everything all right again.
Its actually a description by a world famous scientific expert of round earthers. Paul Feyerabend iirc. If you are interested I'll dig up the book.

If you read it through I'll even send you my personal copy.
If you can't arrgu both sides, you understand neither

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: A recent epigraph of Username
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2025, 05:48:54 PM »
Logical fallacy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty
No, its not.
They are not saying the RE model is true because it is new.
They are saying FEers are clinging to their beliefs regardless of what evidence shows they are wrong.
Any change to the idea that Earth is flat would be blasphemy in your eyes, even though it can't work at all.

It's appeal to novelty + experts.

These new experts know better than those old fogies did.

Oh really? So why is it that your theories always seem to need so many adjustments?
"Earth would get days starting in weird hours..." "Oh didn't we tell you about sidereal days?"
"We only ever see one side of the moon, as if..." "Tidal locking. Don't you dare finish the sentence."

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markjo

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Re: A recent epigraph of Username
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2025, 07:01:31 PM »
These new experts know better than those old fogies did.
Well, yes.  That's how progress works.  Some old fogy figures something out, then some young punk comes along to figure out a better way and becomes the next old fogy, then the cycle repeats.  If it didn't, then the "personal" computer that you're typing on would consist of vacuum tubes and relays, and you would be using a 1200 baud dial up modem to post your quaint musings on the FES bulletin board service.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: A recent epigraph of Username
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2025, 03:13:01 AM »

These new experts know better than those old fogies did.



Where FE is just useless. 

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JackBlack

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Re: A recent epigraph of Username
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2025, 02:36:37 PM »
It's appeal to novelty + experts.
No, it isn't.
Because it lacks the key last part.

It is not saying the RE model is correct because it is new.
It is not saying the RE model is correct because experts say it is.

Instead, it is simply pointing out how mainstream science is happy to adapt to new information, while FE luddites instead cling to their baseless belief that Earth is flat.

The RE model is correct because of the mountains of evidence which show it is; because it is a model which actually works to describe what happens in reality, which allows us to predict what will happen based upon that model.
Compared to your delusional crap, which has no evidence at all supporting it, your delusional crap which can't explain so much of what happens in reality, your delusional crap which doesn't allow us to predict pretty much anything from the model.

So why is it that your theories always seem to need so many adjustments?
They don't.
Pathetic liars like you just keep pretending they do.
Yet you can't provide a single example.

And to make it even more pathetic, you provide fake examples, where you already know the answers which show you are a lying POS.

But like the luddite you are, you cling to your crap and just keep repeating the same refuted BS.

You know they are wrong. So why provide them as examples?
Is it because you really want to show everyone how dishonest you are? How little you care about the truth? How you have no integrity at all?
Or are you just a shill, trying to make FEers look bad?

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marco mineri

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Re: A recent epigraph of Username
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2025, 04:00:52 AM »
Logical fallacy
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_novelty

Just as there is a appeal to tradition (claiming that people have "known" better than Flat Earth since  Eratosthenes), the appeal to novelty claims these people are trendsetters.

“Appeal to novelty“ (“true because new”) IS indeed a logical fallacy. Just as “Appeal to tradition”. And NO scientist has ever committed the first, while many of non-scientists criticizing them currently commit the second (see all those flat-earthers accusing “globers” of having surreptitiously changed the meaning of the word “level” or of the ideas of “up and down”, as if it were possible to say something about reality just by opening an old dictionary).

My point here was NOT that “globers” are right (for this, you have to refer to experimental evidence), but that scientists (especially physicists) are the VERY LAST people who can be said to cling to traditions. The general public has NO idea of all the wild, crazy, outworldish ideas physicists bring forth all the time. Even if the vast majority of these ideas soon prove themselves unviable, and of the remaining ones very few stand up to experimental tests. And even when a theory is highly confirmed by experience physicists are quite open to the possibility that it could be just an approximation of a more general and complete theory. Indeed, they are EAGER to find such a theory. But NOBODY says: “Oh, a new theory, let's embrace it!”, as if it were a new fashion from Paris. Experimental confirmation is crucial.

As to Paul Feyerabend,

Its actually a description by a world famous scientific expert of round earthers. Paul Feyerabend iirc. If you are interested I'll dig up the book.

As to Paul Feyerabend, he's NOT a scientist (much less a “scientific expert of round earthers”). He's just a philosopher, and a highly questionable one at that, like many others (let's remember Hegel, who started his philosophical career arguing that planets “don't follow Newton's Law, but roam freely through space, like gods”. At the end of the 18th century! A work – “On the orbits of planets” - so embarrassing that today's Hegelians avoid to mention it).

And he's NO authority in science (as if there were authority in science! There's no “pope” in science. Einstein never swallowed quantum mechanics, but his idea of “hidden variables” has no followers today. Schroedinger's “cat in the box” argument was intended to criticize an interpretation of quantum mechanics which is prevalent today. And so on).

Feyerabend is famous (or, rather, infamous) for affirming that science is just a narrative, a myth among others. As if experimental confirmation didn't matter. What he says, that “they have certain fixed notions ... Any change would be blasphemy in their eyes, even if it were the truth. They don't want the truth; they want their traditions” can indeed apply to SOME individual scientists, especially as they age. Like Tesla, who was a brilliant electrical engineer but, as the new physics of the 20th century flourished around him, still clung to the “traditional” views of the times when he was young. But if Feyerabend really thinks (or maybe you haven't understood him right?) that the scientific community as a whole clings to traditions, well, he knows absolutely nothing about science
« Last Edit: May 22, 2025, 04:04:01 AM by marco mineri »