The Flat Earth Society
Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Debate => Topic started by: bondurant on July 12, 2007, 05:40:24 AM
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With all of the work Gulliver has done on his RE Primer, I thought it was about time we helped out on the FE FAQ. In this instance, I wanted to help expand on who's in on the conspiracy (or has been in the past) and what their motive is, as the information currently in the FAQ is rather lacking. Feel free to add to this!
Eratosthenes, Posidonius, and Ptolemy
The men that kicked it all off, by carrying out independent experiments in Ancient Greece that supposedly showed that the Earth was round and not flat.
Why?
We don't know, but it was probably money.
Who else is involved?
Everyone that replicates the experiment and talks about it to perpetuate the myth. Anyone who buys the basic equipment will have their costs refunded by the government and a free holiday to the ice wall for a long weekend.
The Ice Wall Guards
These guys are busy protecting the 78,000 mile long ice wall and whatever lies beyond it. Nobody has ever heard a squeek from them.
Why?
We don't know, but it probably involves money. To keep them all quiet, the governments of the world must be rewarding them well. To keep them happy, they probably have their own World of Warcraft servers for recreation, bars, casinos and brothels. If they weren't happy, they could cause havok in the rest of the world if they revolted. Computer simulations have shown that if they all jumped up and down at the same time, they would cause a tidle wave that would engulf all of the world's continents.
Who else is involved?
The governments who supply the soldiers, Blizzard entertainment, and all the bar staff, croupiers and prostitutes.
The Governments
This goes without saying, of course. Starting from ancient Greece, all governments were gradually coerced into supporting the conspiracy. All of the apparent disagreements over policy or ideology were faked or set aside in the greater evil of the round earth conspiracy. Saddam Hussein was heard to say on the way to the gallows, "Remember, infidels, that the world is round!"
Why?
Well, that's like asking why America invaded Iraq! It's money, of course! Maybe there are oil or gold reserves beyond the ice wall. Maybe the secret to eternal life is beyond the ice wall. Maybe there is lots of ice beyond the ice wall.
Who else is involved?
Everyone who works for the governments. If the governments are protecting oil reserves, then the oil companies must also be involved (potentially faking their oil extractions elsewhere or maintaining artificially high prices). The space agencies are obviously involved too.
NASA, ESA, RSA, etc.
All of the space agencies, both government controlled and commercial are involved, faking the sending of satellites and inter-planetary probes into "orbit". In reality, they are firing them into the sea near the ice wall.
Why?
We don't really know, but it must be money. The government is putting billions of dollars into these agencies, which is probably spent by the agency administrators on rewarding the people who carry out the Eratosthenes experiments, as well as their own trips to the the bars and brothels beyond the ice wall.
Who else is involved?
The scientists who create the interplanetary probes, which obviously never go anywhere. Satellite navigation companies. Satellite broadcasting companies. Richard Branson and his Virgin Galactic firm.
Airline Pilots
Most pilots would probably never claim to see the curvature of the earth, but they would certainly claim to navigate along great circle routes in both hemispheres of a round earth.
Why?
We don't really know, but it's probably money. After all, they can't paid that huge salary just because of the stress, long hours and the fact that they are responsible for hundreds of lives. They're paid to keep their mouths shut about the fact they travel at supersonic speeds in the southern hemisphere and that a route from Australia to Chile does, in fact, take them up the Western seaboard of north and south America and near to the north pole.
Who else is involved?
The airline companies, of course. The air traffic controllers. The passengers. People at ground level who have witnessed Boeing 747s passing overhead at supersonic speeds, leaving behind 747-sized sonic booms.
Australians
They would maintain to the world that the shape of their continent is approximately two times the distance east to west as it is north to south, as this fits in nicely with the round earth model. In fact, Australia is at least 4 times the distance east to west as it is north to south.
Why?
We don't know, but it must be money. They are probably too drunk and too busy having "barbies" to notice what shape their continent really is in any case.
Who else is involved?
Anyone else who maintains that the shape of their world is inconsistent with a flat earth. So, that means anyone in South America and Africa in particular. Most Africans, of course, do a great job in hiding the wealth that they earn from the conspiracy.
Scientists
Astronomers keep making "findings" about the universe that simply aren't possible in a flat earth. Solar observers keep showing computer generated images of the ball of fire they call the sun.
Why?
Money, of course. All scientists are secretly stinking rich, but outwardly only show the living circumstances of a research income.
Who else is involved?
Publishers of research journals. Teachers. The programmers who have written the sophisticated computer imagery software since the 1950s.
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This goes to show that the Conspiracy must involve numerous people of varying professions rather than the Few People Theorem.
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Who else is involved?
all the bar staff and prostitutes.
/me gives Gayer the shifty eyes
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With all of the work Gulliver has done on his RE Primer, I thought it was about time we helped out on the FE FAQ. In this instance, I wanted to help expand on who's in on the conspiracy (or has been in the past) and what their motive is, as the information currently in the FAQ is rather lacking. Feel free to add to this!
Eratosthenes, Posidonius, and Ptolemy
Wrong. They did not need to be in on the conspiracy.
The Ice Wall Guards
These guys are busy protecting the 78,000 mile long ice wall and whatever lies beyond it. Nobody has ever heard a squeek from them.
Why?
Could be a number of reasons for why. For one, they could be told anything regarding a detail in Antarctica. They are not required to be in on the conspiracy.
The Governments
This goes without saying, of course. Starting from ancient Greece, all governments were gradually coerced into supporting the conspiracy. All of the apparent disagreements over policy or ideology were faked or set aside in the greater evil of the round earth conspiracy. Saddam Hussein was heard to say on the way to the gallows, "Remember, infidels, that the world is round!"
Wrong again. Governments are not required to be in on the conspiracy, but it's likely a few would know. Space agencies of governments and "private" ones are obviously needed to be involved however.
Why?
We don't really know, but it must be money. The government is putting billions of dollars into these agencies, which is probably spent by the agency administrators on rewarding the people who carry out the Eratosthenes experiments, as well as their own trips to the the bars and brothels beyond the ice wall.
Not surprised by your stupid assumption.
Airline Pilots
Most pilots would probably never claim to see the curvature of the earth, but they would certainly claim to navigate along great circle routes in both hemispheres of a round earth.
Why would they never claim to see it? It still doesn't prove anything. You're doing a terrible job so far.
Scientists
Astronomers keep making "findings" about the universe that simply aren't possible in a flat earth.
Care to share?
Solar observers keep showing computer generated images of the ball of fire they call the sun.
Is the sun not round?
As for the stuff I didn't comment on, it was just too stupid to bother.
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Divito, your response almost made me laugh out loud at my desk in a busy office.
Brilliant. Simply, brilliant.
???
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If your original post was more so a joke, I apologize. Many people are dense enough to make the assertions made in your post, so I took the post as serious.
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Divito is in on it i reckon
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Divito is in on it i reckon
If so, I'm incredibly underpaid.
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Land and Hydrographic Surveyors
Architects of tall buildings
Telecoms companies
The engineers who build the radiotowers instead of satelites
Round the world Yacht Racers
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Those yacht racers are wealthy enough ot control the governments and conspiracy.
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The Ice Wall Guards
The ice wall guards don't need to be in on the conspiracy. They could just be positioned soldiers told what to do that act approprietly.
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Land and Hydrographic Surveyors
Architects of tall buildings
Telecoms companies
The engineers who build the radiotowers instead of satelites
Round the world Yacht Racers
I always thought Ellen MacArthur looked a bit shifty.
Google must be in on it. "Do no evil" my arse, what about Google Earth?
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Google must be in on it. "Do no evil" my arse, what about Google Earth?
Search it, it could help.
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The Ice Wall Guards
The ice wall guards don't need to be in on the conspiracy. They could just be positioned soldiers told what to do that act approprietly.
Imagine the briefing:
"Right then, chaps. We have to defend this here wall of ice for queen and country. We can't tell you why, as it's a secret. When you write home, make sure you tell your family you're in Iraq, and not on a wall of ice, with only seals for food. Oh, and if you should happen across any civilians around here, tell them they're in the wrong place and that you've heard the north pole is really quite nice at this time of the year.
"See you in 6 months, fellas!"
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Don't forget Galileo and Magellen and everyone else who managed to sail/fly around the world or looked through a telescope.
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Imagine the briefing:
"Right then, chaps. We have to defend this here wall of ice for queen and country. We can't tell you why, as it's a secret. When you write home, make sure you tell your family you're in Iraq, and not on a wall of ice, with only seals for food. Oh, and if you should happen across any civilians around here, tell them they're in the wrong place and that you've heard the north pole is really quite nice at this time of the year.
"See you in 6 months, fellas!"
They don't need any kind of explanatory briefing, especially mention of the ice wall. They could simply be told that they cannot let anyone pass a given area, and to use force as directed. That's all they need to know, and with that information, can only wonder what they're doing there and nothing more.
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Imagine the briefing:
"Right then, chaps. We have to defend this here wall of ice for queen and country. We can't tell you why, as it's a secret. When you write home, make sure you tell your family you're in Iraq, and not on a wall of ice, with only seals for food. Oh, and if you should happen across any civilians around here, tell them they're in the wrong place and that you've heard the north pole is really quite nice at this time of the year.
"See you in 6 months, fellas!"
They don't need any kind of explanatory briefing, especially mention of the ice wall. They could simply be told that they cannot let anyone pass a given area, and to use force as directed. That's all they need to know, and with that information, can only wonder what they're doing there and nothing more.
You may be assuming that these blokes aren't smart enough to determine their location by looking at the Sun and stars. You assume that there are enough personnel who can keep a secret and serve in those frigid conditions and provide the needed force. You assume that they would fire upon civilians without question or whistle-blowing. You assume that the contractors supplying the needed supplies wouldn't infer the location and scope of the action.
I've seen people without a security clearance correctly infer the expected number of casualties and the basic environment (desert) associated with an upcoming action (up to four months in advance). An on-going action such as defending the Ice Wall would require security measures well beyond those employed with the current military actions of the United States.
I say that the conspiracy theory requires an enormous amount of effort and resources, and lies beyond credibility.
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You may be assuming that these blokes aren't smart enough to determine their location by looking at the Sun and stars.
I'm sure some 18-year old high school drop out that enlisted can tell his exact location by looking at the stars. Not to mention, they can easily be told they are guarding something in Antarctica which wouldn't be that far from the truth. You're not exactly brought up to question your orders in the military.
You assume that there are enough personnel who can keep a secret and serve in those frigid conditions and provide the needed force. You assume that they would fire upon civilians without question or whistle-blowing. You assume that the contractors supplying the needed supplies wouldn't infer the location and scope of the action.
How many civilians do you propose venture out that far? You also assume they have contractors for a supposed secret? That would be smart of them.
I say that the conspiracy theory requires an enormous amount of effort and resources, and lies beyond credibility.
It's certainly unlikely, but it's certainly not implausible.
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I say that the conspiracy theory requires an enormous amount of effort and resources, and lies beyond credibility.
I say that you're part of the conspiracy, perpetuating the cover-up. How much are they paying you?
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I say that the conspiracy theory requires an enormous amount of effort and resources, and lies beyond credibility.
I say that you're part of the conspiracy, perpetuating the cover-up. How much are they paying you?
Not enough apparently. :D
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You may be assuming that these blokes aren't smart enough to determine their location by looking at the Sun and stars.
I'm sure some 18-year old high school drop out that enlisted can tell his exact location by looking at the stars. Not to mention, they can easily be told they are guarding something in Antarctica which wouldn't be that far from the truth. You're not exactly brought up to question your orders in the military.
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Gee, you really seem to have a low opinion of those who serve in the military. I guess that goes with the tinfoil hats that conspiraloons wear. Oh and yes, you are "brought up" to question, at times, your orders. It is explained quite clearly too when, such as in battle, you must not.
First, not everyone in such an action would be high-school dropouts. The technicians, pilots, navigators, commanders, and mechanics would all have reasoning skills inherent with their abilities. It does not take much to notice that the weather is frigid and that the stars are different than at home and that Polaris is missing from the night sky.
Second, there is a definite lack of mothers lamenting that their offspring is suffering, or suffered, in frigid climes. There is a definite lack of veterans sitting around the bar bragging about how cold it was during their tour. There is a definite lack of contractors reporting profits selling cold-weather gear and equipment to the Government.
The conspiracy is beyond credibility.
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Sigh, the ice wall guards were a joke, im sure of it...
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The conspiracy is beyond credibility.
I think the conspiracy is possible only from the philosophical standpoint as it were, along with every other overreaching conspiracy of incredible proportions out there. I mean that in the sense that if it truly is a grand super well orchestrated conspiracy then it is by definition good enough to pull the wool over our eyes no matter what evidence we bring forth (anything can be incorporated into showing just how far the conspiracy has spread). Because of that you could never truly disprove it. Kinda like.. unicorns or fairies. That does not make its exitence even remotely likely however. Possible, strictly speaking, but by no means probable. For all practical purposes it is beyond credibility in my opinion.
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The conspiracy is beyond credibility.
I think the conspiracy is possible only from the philosophical standpoint as it were, along with every other overreaching conspiracy of incredible proportions out there. I mean that in the sense that if it truly is a grand super well orchestrated conspiracy then it is by definition good enough to pull the wool over our eyes no matter what evidence we bring forth (anything can be incorporated into showing just how far the conspiracy has spread). Because of that you could never truly disprove it. Kinda like.. unicorns or fairies. That does not make its exitence even remotely likely however. Possible, strictly speaking, but by no means probable. For all practical purposes it is beyond credibility in my opinion.
Well said. Top drawer.
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Gee, you really seem to have a low opinion of those who serve in the military.
Not really. Would it make more sense to send an experienced and intelligent soldier to the Ice Wall, or an impressionable and inexperienced one? Less straw men please.
First, not everyone in such an action would be high-school dropouts. The technicians, pilots, navigators, commanders, and mechanics would all have reasoning skills inherent with their abilities. It does not take much to notice that the weather is frigid and that the stars are different than at home and that Polaris is missing from the night sky.
Did I say the weather wasn't frigid in Antarctica? I don't think they would be looking and making sure all the stars are where they should be. And what are these technicians, navigators and mechanics doing there? People are just guarding the Ice Wall. The only pilots necessary are the ones who fly them out there.
Second, there is a definite lack of mothers lamenting that their offspring is suffering, or suffered, in frigid climes. There is a definite lack of veterans sitting around the bar bragging about how cold it was during their tour. There is a definite lack of contractors reporting profits selling cold-weather gear and equipment to the Government.
That's assuming they were told the truth. As for the veterans, who is to say they were ever able to leave?
Gear for cold weather isn't only subject to the Antarctic.
As I've already stated, it's certainly unlikely, but it's certainly not implausible.
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I'm in on it. I was in the U.S. Navy.
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Gee, you really seem to have a low opinion of those who serve in the military.
Not really. Would it make more sense to send an experienced and intelligent soldier to the Ice Wall, or an impressionable and inexperienced one? Less straw men please.
First, not everyone in such an action would be high-school dropouts. The technicians, pilots, navigators, commanders, and mechanics would all have reasoning skills inherent with their abilities. It does not take much to notice that the weather is frigid and that the stars are different than at home and that Polaris is missing from the night sky.
Did I say the weather wasn't frigid in Antarctica? I don't think they would be looking and making sure all the stars are where they should be. And what are these technicians, navigators and mechanics doing there? People are just guarding the Ice Wall. The only pilots necessary are the ones who fly them out there.
Second, there is a definite lack of mothers lamenting that their offspring is suffering, or suffered, in frigid climes. There is a definite lack of veterans sitting around the bar bragging about how cold it was during their tour. There is a definite lack of contractors reporting profits selling cold-weather gear and equipment to the Government.
That's assuming they were told the truth. As for the veterans, who is to say they were ever able to leave?
Gear for cold weather isn't only subject to the Antarctic.
As I've already stated, it's certainly unlikely, but it's certainly not implausible.
You mean "fewer straw man". It makes sense to send experienced and intelligent soliders. You seem to not understand about what you're talking. Military action requires logistics, and logistics require ships, aircrafts, pilots, navigators, technicians, and mechanics. The pilots would need to fly supply runs and reconnaissance, for example. The weather would be too hostile and the navigation too odd for even average pilots.
I'm only assuming that they feel the truth, like feeling how cold it is and for how long it's cold. I say that they were able to leave based on logic. Explaining so many missing servicemen over so many years would be impossible.
"Gear for cold weather isn't only subject to the Antarctic." This sentence is just too stupid and too irrelevant to justify a reply beyond this.
You have no rational basis for your conclusion that such a conspiracy is plausible. (I assume that you don't mind my applying the law of the excluded middle and then correcting your grammar.)
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Divito how is the military's intelligence a straw man fallacy?
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You mean "fewer straw man".
Technically, you're correct, but it's still applicable. Certainly not traditional but it sounds better in speech to me.
"generally, less applies to quantity while fewer applies to number; the traditional rule says that you should use fewer for things that can be counted (fewer than four players) but less with mass terms for things of measurable extent (less paper, less than a gallon of paint)"
It makes sense to send experienced and intelligent soliders. You seem to not understand about what you're talking. Military action requires logistics, and logistics require ships, aircrafts, pilots, navigators, technicians, and mechanics. The pilots would need to fly supply runs and reconnaissance, for example. The weather would be too hostile and the navigation too odd for even average pilots.
Like I said, the only people in on the conspiracy would be the pilots. There is no reason to think they are anything less than experts.
Yes, they require logistics. Did I say otherwise?
"In military logistics, experts manage how and when to move resources to the places they are needed."
Easily managed within a supposed conspiracy. The actual troops stationed on the ground and monitoring their equipment are not involved in the logistics.
I'm only assuming that they feel the truth, like feeling how cold it is and for how long it's cold.
That's right, you didn't answer where I said it wasn't frigid in the Antarctic.
I say that they were able to leave based on logic. Explaining so many missing servicemen over so many years would be impossible.
Explaining people dying in the line of duty is definitely impossible.
"Gear for cold weather isn't only subject to the Antarctic." This sentence is just too stupid and too irrelevant to justify a reply beyond this.
It wasn't irrelevant. You claimed "There is a definite lack of contractors reporting profits selling cold-weather gear and equipment to the Government."
For one, I'd like to know why you think they'd be reporting such profits.
Next, as my statement implied, gear for cold weather isn't only subject to the Antarctic. This would mean that said contractors would have no idea what the stuff was being purchased for. You sure do assume a lot.
You have no rational basis for your conclusion that such a conspiracy is plausible.
My rational basis is based on lack of evidence that it's implausible.
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Divito how is the military's intelligence a straw man fallacy?
He claimed I had a low opinion of those that serve in the military. That is the straw man.
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It makes sense to send experienced and intelligent soliders. You seem to not understand about what you're talking. Military action requires logistics, and logistics require ships, aircrafts, pilots, navigators, technicians, and mechanics. The pilots would need to fly supply runs and reconnaissance, for example. The weather would be too hostile and the navigation too odd for even average pilots.
Like I said, the only people in on the conspiracy would be the pilots. There is no reason to think they are anything less than experts.
Yes, they require logistics. Did I say otherwise?
"In military logistics, experts manage how and when to move resources to the places they are needed."
Easily managed within a supposed conspiracy. The actual troops stationed on the ground and monitoring their equipment are not involved in the logistics.
Yes, they are. They, for example, make requisitions and handle receiving.I'm only assuming that they feel the truth, like feeling how cold it is and for how long it's cold.
That's right, you didn't answer where I said it wasn't frigid in the Antarctic.
You're right. I'm not going to deal with your wild fantasy.I say that they were able to leave based on logic. Explaining so many missing servicemen over so many years would be impossible.
Explaining people dying in the line of duty is definitely impossible.
Explaining that hundreds of people died in the line of duty without accounting for the conspiracy would be implausible.
"Gear for cold weather isn't only subject to the Antarctic." This sentence is just too stupid and too irrelevant to justify a reply beyond this.
It wasn't irrelevant. You claimed "There is a definite lack of contractors reporting profits selling cold-weather gear and equipment to the Government."
For one, I'd like to know why you think they'd be reporting such profits.
Next, as my statement implied, gear for cold weather isn't only subject to the Antarctic. This would mean that said contractors would have no idea what the stuff was being purchased for. You sure do assume a lot.
First of all, your grammar or wording is so off that it's difficult to even determine what you're saying. I believe that you don't understand how to use the phrase "subject to". Next, as a government contractor, I dealt with orders in the billions of dollars, from nails to aircraft engines. You know, based on the specifications, the classifications, the port of departure, the timing of departure, the craft departing, and the priority of the order, a great deal about where and how the supply will be used. Often it's written right into the requisition or the item description. Even the materials for the South Pole forces are different from the North Poles forces, though I can only recall uniform differences right now. You just don't understand enough about logistics to make any reasonable statement on this subject.
You have no rational basis for your conclusion that such a conspiracy is plausible.
My rational basis is based on lack of evidence that it's implausible.
Your basis is faulty then. Rational methods require evidence of the assertion, not the lack thereof. You assert that the conspiracy is plausible, but fail to provide evidence accordingly.
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This is going to get boring real fast.
Yes, they are. They, for example, make requisitions and handle receiving.
That's not the same as logistics, which aren't done on their end.
Anyways, that proves they are in on the conspiracy how?
You're right. I'm not going to deal with your wild fantasy.
My wild fantasy?
"It does not take much to notice that the weather is frigid"
What was the point of this statement then if it wasn't misrepresenting something I typed, or apparently didn't type??
Explaining that hundreds of people died in the line of duty without accounting for the conspiracy would be implausible.
Why? Are you telling me every family that has offspring or a sibling in the military should consider a conspiracy when confronted with their death?
Next, as a government contractor, I dealt with orders in the billions of dollars, from nails to aircraft engines. You know, based on the specifications, the classifications, the port of departure, the timing of departure, the craft departing, and the priority of the order, a great deal about where and how the supply will be used. Often it's written right into the requisition or the item description. Even the materials for the South Pole forces are different from the North Poles forces, though I can only recall uniform differences right now. You just don't understand enough about logistics to make any reasonable statement on this subject.
Now you're assuming that they would have stupidly put the order into the supplier directly from the stations on the Ice Wall? Come on. Stop adding more complexity than there needs to be.
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Even the materials for the South Pole forces are different from the North Poles forces,
The North Pole is just a big hunk of ice. There are no "north pole forces" because there is nothing up there (Not even Santa). All those explorers and guys who felt like a bit of thrill and sled dogged to the north pole and such have revealed that. And the South Pole is international territory. There are no "South pole forces" other than a few scientists who hardly count as military personnel because they are just a bunch of nerds who like the cold.
Also, I suppose Scott of the Antarctic and his crew were victims of an international force to wreck their ship, right?
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Even the materials for the South Pole forces are different from the North Poles forces,
The North Pole is just a big hunk of ice. There are no "north pole forces" because there is nothing up there (Not even Santa). All those explorers and guys who felt like a bit of thrill and sled dogged to the north pole and such have revealed that. And the South Pole is international territory. There are no "South pole forces" other than a few scientists who hardly count as military personnel because they are just a bunch of nerds who like the cold.
Also, I suppose Scott of the Antarctic and his crew were victims of an international force to wreck their ship, right?
I'm not that you realize that I'm a REer you greatly discounts the possibility of the FE conspiracy.
As far as backing my assertion that there are forces in the Arctic, please reference: Fairchild (http://public.fairchild.amc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=3771).
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Arctic I believe, North pole, no.
I'm more concerned with the truth than what faction on this site you belong to. I apologize.
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Arctic I believe, North pole, no.
I'm more concerned with the truth than what faction on this site you belong to. I apologize.
Well said. Lifted for the Truth Primer.
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lol
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This is going to get boring real fast.
Yes, they are. They, for example, make requisitions and handle receiving.
That's not the same as logistics, which aren't done on their end.
Anyways, that proves they are in on the conspiracy how?
First, supply-chain logistics most certainly includes requisitioning. It most certainly includes receiving and stocking. It most certainly requires talents far beyond the high-school dropout level that you've suggested.
You're right. I'm not going to deal with your wild fantasy.
My wild fantasy?
"It does not take much to notice that the weather is frigid"
What was the point of this statement then if it wasn't misrepresenting something I typed, or apparently didn't type??
You seem to believe that everything I type is challenging directly. You need to get out of your fantasy world. In this case, you decided that I was somehow accusing you of thinking the weather isn't frigid. I never said that. I made this statement to point out that your argument that they may not be told the truth about their location was insufficient.Explaining that hundreds of people died in the line of duty without accounting for the conspiracy would be implausible.
Why? Are you telling me every family that has offspring or a sibling in the military should consider a conspiracy when confronted with their death?
I'm saying that hundreds of deaths will be, in the aggregate, examined by the media and other watchdogs, including conspiracy theorists. Such numbers are impossible to hide in today's open media access to the battlefront.Next, as a government contractor, I dealt with orders in the billions of dollars, from nails to aircraft engines. You know, based on the specifications, the classifications, the port of departure, the timing of departure, the craft departing, and the priority of the order, a great deal about where and how the supply will be used. Often it's written right into the requisition or the item description. Even the materials for the South Pole forces are different from the North Poles forces, though I can only recall uniform differences right now. You just don't understand enough about logistics to make any reasonable statement on this subject.
Now you're assuming that they would have stupidly put the order into the supplier directly from the stations on the Ice Wall? Come on. Stop adding more complexity than there needs to be.
I am assuming that the existing military-industrial infrastructure would be used, that the orders would flow through known and existing communication systems and exchanges, and that reasonable examinations of these data would naturally happen. If you want to add a "shadow" supply system to the conspiracy, you're welcome to apply another layer of tin foil to your hat and have at it.
As for me, I'm just going to laugh at how you fail to demonstrate that a conspiracy is plausible, time after time.
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What I found most hilarious about the conspiracy is that it is assumed that its been going on since ancient times with Eratosthenes. Thats an almost 3000 year conspiracy, and yet no one has noticed anything? Odd...
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What I found most hilarious about the conspiracy is that it is assumed that its been going on since ancient times with Eratosthenes. Thats an almost 3000 year conspiracy, and yet no one has noticed anything? Odd...
Who assumes this?
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I had read in a post a while back (i'm sorry i don't really care to search for it) that Eratosthenes and the ancient philosophers who used various methods to prove the earth round were the founders of the conspiracy.
Apparently that is not the common view. I've not been around for much more than today, so I can't judge what most people accept and what only a few people accept quite yet. If my statement is untrue for the greater majority, consider it retracted.
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First, supply-chain logistics most certainly includes requisitioning. It most certainly includes receiving and stocking. It most certainly requires talents far beyond the high-school dropout level that you've suggested.
A requisition is nothing more than a demand. It wouldn't be hard to instruct your men to put in a requisition order upon a certain stock level. Inventory is nothing more than counting. Receiving supplies and storing them is also rather simple. I fail to see the above high-school level required so far for those men.
I made this statement to point out that your argument that they may not be told the truth about their location was insufficient.
They would be told they are guarding something in the Antarctic. It's not completely false. They could come up with a myriad of reasons for their stationing.
I'm saying that hundreds of deaths will be, in the aggregate, examined by the media and other watchdogs, including conspiracy theorists. Such numbers are impossible to hide in today's open media access to the battlefront.
Where are you getting your figures from? Over how long of a period are these hundreds of people dying?
I am assuming that the existing military-industrial infrastructure would be used, that the orders would flow through known and existing communication systems and exchanges, and that reasonable examinations of these data would naturally happen. If you want to add a "shadow" supply system to the conspiracy, you're welcome to apply another layer of tin foil to your hat and have at it.
I don't own a tin foil hat. Perhaps I should make one.
As for me, I'm just going to laugh at how you fail to demonstrate that a conspiracy is plausible, time after time.
I never said it was plausible. I said, for the third time now, it's certainly unlikely, but it's certainly not implausible. If you need me to point out the difference, I can.
I had read in a post a while back (i'm sorry i don't really care to search for it) that Eratosthenes and the ancient philosophers who used various methods to prove the earth round were the founders of the conspiracy.
Apparently that is not the common view. I've not been around for much more than today, so I can't judge what most people accept and what only a few people accept quite yet. If my statement is untrue for the greater majority, consider it retracted.
I believe that was stated in the original post of this thread. And it was mainly sarcastic and a jab at the FE'ers. It's certainly not required that they founded or were apart of the supposed, modern conspiracy.
By the way, watashi wa L desu.
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I had read in a post a while back (i'm sorry i don't really care to search for it) that Eratosthenes and the ancient philosophers who used various methods to prove the earth round were the founders of the conspiracy.
Apparently that is not the common view. I've not been around for much more than today, so I can't judge what most people accept and what only a few people accept quite yet. If my statement is untrue for the greater majority, consider it retracted.
Actually, you haven't really made a mistake. You've just ran into the FE smokescreen. Rather than provide any details about the conspiracy or rather their theory about it, they choose to confound and obfuscate. When presented with "Why did so-and-so say he'd measured this-or-that?", they'll ask, "How do you know that so-and-so wasn't in the conspiracy?" When presented with "Since so-and-so said the Earth is round so long ago, your conspiracy theory looks stupid", they'll ask, "Why do you think that so-and-so was in the conspiracy?". They don't (and indeed can't) answer such questions without risking that you'll see "the man behind the curtains". I think that we're lucky just to have the FAQ.
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I think Gulliver does...
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First, supply-chain logistics most certainly includes requisitioning. It most certainly includes receiving and stocking. It most certainly requires talents far beyond the high-school dropout level that you've suggested.
A requisition is nothing more than a demand. It wouldn't be hard to instruct your men to put in a requisition order upon a certain stock level. Inventory is nothing more than counting. Receiving supplies and storing them is also rather simple. I fail to see the above high-school level required so far for those men.
I believe that your failure to appreciate the talents of those performing these tasks demonstrates just how useless you are in these debates. The selection of the right part requires a great deal of experience and reasoning. Predicting required inventory levels is a amazing difficult problem that I bet you couldn't do to save your soul. I know I fail at it all too often, and my Ph. D. dissertation was in OR. Receiving is not easy either. Matching req to PO to part to shipment to bin to priority is a daunting task. Heck, just predicting what size bin to use for a new stock item requires significant talents and often some complex math. Oh, and remember you are arguing that these people are high-school dropouts, not graduates. These people would have reasoning abilities and talents and you should respect them as you expect your talents to be respected.I made this statement to point out that your argument that they may not be told the truth about their location was insufficient.
They would be told they are guarding something in the Antarctic. It's not completely false. They could come up with a myriad of reasons for their stationing.
Oh, a new argument. I guess you gave up on the last one. Fine. I'll agree that everyone stationed to guard the Ice Wall know that they're in Antarctica. Now tell us the reason we don't hear about their stationing, from their parents, over drinks at the bar, or at the VFW? I'm saying that hundreds of deaths will be, in the aggregate, examined by the media and other watchdogs, including conspiracy theorists. Such numbers are impossible to hide in today's open media access to the battlefront.
Where are you getting your figures from? Over how long of a period are these hundreds of people dying?
Listen, pal, it's your "not implausible" theory that people can guard the Ice Wall and then never return and not be missed. You tell me how long each person serves, how many miles each covers for how many hours each day, along the longest conceivable border in the most inhospitable environment on Earth with months of total darkness with the longest supply lines even encountered by any military ever in the history of man, and I'll be glad to work out a number for you. Until then, I stand by my claim that hundreds of people every year would have to go missing in military service. I suggest that hundreds each year is probably two orders of magnitude low, but surely enough to catch the suspicions of watchdogs.I am assuming that the existing military-industrial infrastructure would be used, that the orders would flow through known and existing communication systems and exchanges, and that reasonable examinations of these data would naturally happen. If you want to add a "shadow" supply system to the conspiracy, you're welcome to apply another layer of tin foil to your hat and have at it.
I don't own a tin foil hat. Perhaps I should make one.
You have earned the figurative tinfoil hat by your defense of the conspiracy theory, with all the rank and privileges thereof.As for me, I'm just going to laugh at how you fail to demonstrate that a conspiracy is plausible, time after time.
I never said it was plausible. I said, for the third time now, it's certainly unlikely, but it's certainly not implausible. If you need me to point out the difference, I can.
Sure, please do. I'd be happy to scoff at such an attempt. Be sure to explain the reason the law of the excluded middle doesn't apply to you.
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I believe that your failure to appreciate the talents of those performing these tasks demonstrates just how useless you are in these debates. The selection of the right part requires a great deal of experience and reasoning. Predicting required inventory levels is a amazing difficult problem that I bet you couldn't do to save your soul. I know I fail at it all too often, and my Ph. D. dissertation was in OR. Receiving is not easy either. Matching req to PO to part to shipment to bin to priority is a daunting task. Heck, just predicting what size bin to use for a new stock item requires significant talents and often some complex math. Oh, and remember you are arguing that these people are high-school dropouts, not graduates. These people would have reasoning abilities and talents and you should respect them as you expect your talents to be respected.
I actually handled inventory for Leon's Furniture when I was 17, and still in high school. I also plotted the deliveries daily and assigned the drivers their items according to certain criteria. Essentially it had to be done efficiently upon a logical route, account for gas and the monetary value per truck had to be about even, given that they were paid a percentage of the orders. I monitored stock levels, customer orders and made the necessary requisitions for ISTs (in-store transfers) based on the quantity and schedule of other manufacturer deliveries. I even handled the RMAs and manufacturer repairs in accordance with demand. The larger orders from the manufacturers were done at the home office and based on statistical analysis, something I probably would have been incapable of doing at the time.
Oh, a new argument. I guess you gave up on the last one. Fine. I'll agree that everyone stationed to guard the Ice Wall know that they're in Antarctica. Now tell us the reason we don't hear about their stationing, from their parents, over drinks at the bar, or at the VFW?
I didn't change my argument. If you read my original posts, it's the same.
As for the reason we don't hear about it. Black ops? Something more believable could be that they are told something else, they tell their family and the mission or assignment "changes" and they are unable to contact them in the future. I've already touched on this in other threads. Rerouting mail, fake letters etc...
The details regarding discharge or possibilities for what happens outside of that would be subject to more speculation, but it could certainly be accounted for.
Listen, pal, it's your "not implausible" theory that people can guard the Ice Wall and then never return and not be missed. You tell me how long each person serves, how many miles each covers for how many hours each day, along the longest conceivable border in the most inhospitable environment on Earth with months of total darkness with the longest supply lines even encountered by any military ever in the history of man, and I'll be glad to work out a number for you. Until then, I stand by my claim that hundreds of people every year would have to go missing in military service. I suggest that hundreds each year is probably two orders of magnitude low, but surely enough to catch the suspicions of watchdogs.
I'd have to take a look at those threads where they worked out a reasonable number. I'm also lacking in the knowledge of military technology that could significantly reduce the number of men needed.
I never said they wouldn't be missed. Information surrounding their time there could definitely be misrepresented or fabricated. Details for their return, should they be returned, could even be due to a mental breakdown, or other such issues along the lines of GWS.
You have earned the figurative tinfoil hat by your defense of the conspiracy theory, with all the rank and privileges thereof.
Yay! I must say it is a fun challenge.
Sure, please do. I'd be happy to scoff at such an attempt. Be sure to explain the reason the law of the excluded middle doesn't apply to you.
Actually, I wouldn't be able to do that accurately. It'd be subject to opinion in all cases and not fact. We'd both lose that battle :(
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Divito,
The logistics of maintaining a standing force 1000's of miles from your home land is staggering.
The minimum numbers quoted for guarding the ice is fantasy and coming from people with out military back ground. I think I posted in an earlier thread that the 600 quoted , taking in the FE thoughts of the length of the coast line related to 75 men for the West coast of the USA seems a bit skinny?
That aside 600 is a standing Battalion ,how many Battalions are they using in rotation? Who is training them and where are these men training? Under similar conditions
And the biggest Q from what country are they coming from ?
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Divito,
The logistics of maintaining a standing force 1000's of miles from your home land is staggering.
The minimum numbers quoted for guarding the ice is fantasy and coming from people with out military back ground. I think I posted in an earlier thread that the 600 quoted , taking in the FE thoughts of the length of the coast line related to 75 men for the West coast of the USA seems a bit skinny?
That aside 600 is a standing Battalion ,how many Battalions are they using in rotation? Who is training them and where are these men training? Under similar conditions
And the biggest Q from what country are they coming from ?
Those are actually some good questions.
The number of men is still reliant upon technology. I can't accurately speculate to which technology is used, but I have an inkling that it would greatly diminish the estimated numbers. The only issue would be to come up with a reasonable speculation as to how many people you actually think approach the Ice Wall and at what point warrants action.
A portion of ice, (part of the the Antarctic treaty) could be setup for research, and that is consistently traveled upon using certain navigational data. This treaty includes a good portion of countries, and the countries are either nonchalant about the activities or are part of the conspiracy. I'd have to assume that should it exist, it is primarily with the agencies that originated the space race, being NASA and the RKA and some sect their military. It would provide for less involvement, but the science behind navigation the Ice Wall presents a large problem with this idea.
As for the training, refer to Gulliver's suggestion regarding Fairchild (http://public.fairchild.amc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=3771).
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I believe that your failure to appreciate the talents of those performing these tasks demonstrates just how useless you are in these debates. The selection of the right part requires a great deal of experience and reasoning. Predicting required inventory levels is a amazing difficult problem that I bet you couldn't do to save your soul. I know I fail at it all too often, and my Ph. D. dissertation was in OR. Receiving is not easy either. Matching req to PO to part to shipment to bin to priority is a daunting task. Heck, just predicting what size bin to use for a new stock item requires significant talents and often some complex math. Oh, and remember you are arguing that these people are high-school dropouts, not graduates. These people would have reasoning abilities and talents and you should respect them as you expect your talents to be respected.
I actually handled inventory for Leon's Furniture when I was 17, and still in high school. I also plotted the deliveries daily and assigned the drivers their items according to certain criteria. Essentially it had to be done efficiently upon a logical route, account for gas and the monetary value per truck had to be about even, given that they were paid a percentage of the orders. I monitored stock levels, customer orders and made the necessary requisitions for ISTs (in-store transfers) based on the quantity and schedule of other manufacturer deliveries. I even handled the RMAs and manufacturer repairs in accordance with demand. The larger orders from the manufacturers were done at the home office and based on statistical analysis, something I probably would have been incapable of doing at the time.
Are you trying to compare order for a furniture store in a comfortable city with ordering for a military operation as far as possible from civilization? I certainly hope not. I really don't know of another reason for this glimpse into your past.Oh, a new argument. I guess you gave up on the last one. Fine. I'll agree that everyone stationed to guard the Ice Wall know that they're in Antarctica. Now tell us the reason we don't hear about their stationing, from their parents, over drinks at the bar, or at the VFW?
I didn't change my argument. If you read my original posts, it's the same.
As for the reason we don't hear about it. Black ops? Something more believable could be that they are told something else, they tell their family and the mission or assignment "changes" and they are unable to contact them in the future. I've already touched on this in other threads. Rerouting mail, fake letters etc...
The details regarding discharge or possibilities for what happens outside of that would be subject to more speculation, but it could certainly be accounted for.
If you consider all that plausible, you really must believe that unicorns are plausible.Listen, pal, it's your "not implausible" theory that people can guard the Ice Wall and then never return and not be missed. You tell me how long each person serves, how many miles each covers for how many hours each day, along the longest conceivable border in the most inhospitable environment on Earth with months of total darkness with the longest supply lines even encountered by any military ever in the history of man, and I'll be glad to work out a number for you. Until then, I stand by my claim that hundreds of people every year would have to go missing in military service. I suggest that hundreds each year is probably two orders of magnitude low, but surely enough to catch the suspicions of watchdogs.
I'd have to take a look at those threads where they worked out a reasonable number. I'm also lacking in the knowledge of military technology that could significantly reduce the number of men needed.
I never said they wouldn't be missed. Information surrounding their time there could definitely be misrepresented or fabricated. Details for their return, should they be returned, could even be due to a mental breakdown, or other such issues along the lines of GWS.
Of course, it would take a large number of people to accomplish this fabrication as well, so be sure to increase the numbers accordingly. Interesting though that you assail my figures and don't have any yourself. I can only conclude that your assertion that the conspiracy theory is not implausible is not well thought out.You have earned the figurative tinfoil hat by your defense of the conspiracy theory, with all the rank and privileges thereof.
Yay! I must say it is a fun challenge.
Sure, please do. I'd be happy to scoff at such an attempt. Be sure to explain the reason the law of the excluded middle doesn't apply to you.
Actually, I wouldn't be able to do that accurately. It'd be subject to opinion in all cases and not fact. We'd both lose that battle :(
You are the master of weak concessions. Okay, so we're clear after many pages. You are asserting that this conspiracy theory is plausible and haven't substantiated your assertion. You can't even calculate how many people would be needed, yet you assert it's plausible. Goodness where's divito when you need him to hold someone to back up their assertion?
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"The number of men is still reliant upon technology. I can't accurately speculate to which technology is used, but I have an inkling that it would greatly diminish the estimated numbers. The only issue would be to come up with a reasonable speculation as to how many people you actually think approach the Ice Wall and at what point warrants action."
Partially correct , the number of personnel is dependent upon your intended response, anticipated maximum size of enemy, what multipliers you or the enemy has for safe engagement . That and response time after detection.
"A portion of ice, (part of the the Antarctic treaty) could be setup for research, and that is consistently traveled upon using certain navigational data. This treaty includes a good portion of countries, and the countries are either nonchalant about the activities or are part of the conspiracy. I'd have to assume that should it exist, it is primarily with the agencies that originated the space race, being NASA and the RKA and some sect their military. It would provide for less involvement, but the science behind navigation the Ice Wall presents a large problem with this idea."
"
This bit does not make much sense, sorry. Its one thing to have a military body stationed adjacent to civvies in peace , it can be seen as a deterrent but that deterrent is only viable if visible the so called Ice guards are low visibility. If it is a standing unit on active service the unit its self is dangerous to have adjacent to civvies.
As for the training, refer to Gulliver's suggestion regarding Fairchild.'
It takes substantially more than 17 days training for a tour of duty.
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Are you trying to compare order for a furniture store in a comfortable city with ordering for a military operation as far as possible from civilization? I certainly hope not. I really don't know of another reason for this glimpse into your past.
The concept is the same. It's a management of supplies. As I worked with inventory numbers and contacts, the same is applied to their rations and supplies.
If you consider all that plausible, you really must believe that unicorns are plausible.
Partly a straw man, but other than that, are you denying that there isn't a misconception amongst how the idea of a unicorn appeared?
Of course, it would take a large number of people to accomplish this fabrication as well, so be sure to increase the numbers accordingly. Interesting though that you assail my figures and don't have any yourself. I can only conclude that your assertion that the conspiracy theory is not implausible is not well thought out.
I was just curious where you were basing your numbers from. While I have no numbers that are any more reasonable than yours, I just found it hard to believe regarding the hundreds of deaths that you suggested.
You are the master of weak concessions. Okay, so we're clear after many pages. You are asserting that this conspiracy theory is plausible and haven't substantiated your assertion. You can't even calculate how many people would be needed, yet you assert it's plausible. Goodness where's divito when you need him to hold someone to back up their assertion?
There are too many assumptions to realistically assert anything. I'm sure no crazy explanations I came up with would satisfy people. Although I may revisit this later in an attempt to actually work out some numbers. Should be fun.
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Partially correct , the number of personnel is dependent upon your intended response, anticipated maximum size of enemy, what multipliers you or the enemy has for safe engagement . That and response time after detection.
Yup.
This bit does not make much sense, sorry. Its one thing to have a military body stationed adjacent to civvies in peace , it can be seen as a deterrent but that deterrent is only viable if visible the so called Ice guards are low visibility. If it is a standing unit on active service the unit its self is dangerous to have adjacent to civvies.
Ya, sorry. I had a bunch of thoughts in my head and tried mashing them together instead of typing them all out. Essentially, there is the Antarctic treaty. Stated in the first article of it is:
"military activity, such as weapons testing, is prohibited, but military personnel and equipment may be used for scientific research or any other peaceful purpose;"
Guarding said Ice Wall could be in line with the 'peaceful purpose'. Having such military presence wouldn't be completely out of place near such scientific establishments on the 'continent' and would be in line with the treaty that is common knowledge for the most part. I don't see it as a huge issue.
The bigger issue comes with the navigational data into getting each researcher to the same spot. That, I'm not willing to speculate. Where is Tom when you need some crazy theory?
It takes substantially more than 17 days training for a tour of duty.
I was just responding to your question of who is training them and under what conditions. This one is at least a documented one.
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"Guarding said Ice Wall could be in line with the 'peaceful purpose'. Having such military presence wouldn't be completely out of place near such scientific establishments on the 'continent' and would be in line with the treaty that is common knowledge for the most part. I don't see it as a huge issue."
But guarding by whom against whom?
And also I reiterate you need a high visibility of your forces for it to be a deterrent.
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But guarding by whom against whom?
Depends on whose perspective you're referring to. The guards'? The scientists'? The countries'?
And also I reiterate you need a high visibility of your forces for it to be a deterrent.
Deterrent for what?
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Are you trying to compare order for a furniture store in a comfortable city with ordering for a military operation as far as possible from civilization? I certainly hope not. I really don't know of another reason for this glimpse into your past.
The concept is the same. It's a management of supplies. As I worked with inventory numbers and contacts, the same is applied to their rations and supplies.
You have no idea, just no idea, how hard a military action is to pull off. People die, and not just in combat. In the environment that we're discussing, a simple failure to order the right replacement part for the backup aircraft's backup navigation array could easily strand dozens of servicemen and doom them to an icy death. But you think it's the same concept as ordering furniture. You haven't a clue.
I've had to sit across the table from a General when a line of code cost a single life in his command and account for each and every time our team dealt with that line of code. (I have made a mistake once that did indeed cost someone her life, but this time our team performed beyond the highest standards in the industry. We were just overruled by someone with the bigger picture in mind. We really got to know the concept of "one life, so many may live" all too well that long, long day.) The right type of bandage did not get on the Mercy before she deployed, I believe, though I wasn't privileged to the details. You have no right to compare your furniture store experience with the hard and important work that must be done by trained and reasoning servicemen in any military action's supply line. They are owed our respect. They earn it with their very lives.
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You have no idea, just no idea, how hard a military action is to pull off. People die, and not just in combat. In the environment that we're discussing, a simple failure to order the right replacement part for the backup aircraft's backup navigation array could easily strand dozens of servicemen and doom them to an icy death. But you think it's the same concept as ordering furniture. You haven't a clue.
I've had to sit across the table from a General when a line of code cost a single life in his command and account for each and every time our team dealt with that line of code. (I have made a mistake once that did indeed cost someone her life, but this time our team performed beyond the highest standards in the industry. We were just overruled by someone with the bigger picture in mind. We really got to know the concept of "one life, so many may live" all too well that long, long day.) The right type of bandage did not get on the Mercy before she deployed, I believe, though I wasn't privileged to the details. You have no right to compare your furniture store experience with the hard and important work that must be done by trained and reasoning servicemen in any military action's supply line. They are owed our respect. They earn it with their very lives.
You have misconstrued my statement. The concept is the same...not the importance of how accurately their job needs to be done. I also never claimed military action was easy.
I also found it laughable that you'd try to devalue my argument by playing the sympathy and respect card. Weak :(
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You have no idea, just no idea, how hard a military action is to pull off. People die, and not just in combat. In the environment that we're discussing, a simple failure to order the right replacement part for the backup aircraft's backup navigation array could easily strand dozens of servicemen and doom them to an icy death. But you think it's the same concept as ordering furniture. You haven't a clue.
I've had to sit across the table from a General when a line of code cost a single life in his command and account for each and every time our team dealt with that line of code. (I have made a mistake once that did indeed cost someone her life, but this time our team performed beyond the highest standards in the industry. We were just overruled by someone with the bigger picture in mind. We really got to know the concept of "one life, so many may live" all too well that long, long day.) The right type of bandage did not get on the Mercy before she deployed, I believe, though I wasn't privileged to the details. You have no right to compare your furniture store experience with the hard and important work that must be done by trained and reasoning servicemen in any military action's supply line. They are owed our respect. They earn it with their very lives.
You have misconstrued my statement. The concept is the same...not the importance of how accurately their job needs to be done. I also never claimed military action was easy.
I also found it laughable that you'd try to devalue my argument by playing the sympathy and respect card. Weak :(
You have stated that the Ice Wall could be guarded by high-school dropouts. You've attacked the fine servicemen that carry out military actions. You dare to compare the concept of your petty furniture store experience with the concept of supplying a military action. You need to reconsider just how hard other people work. You still have no idea.
You've asserted that the conspiracy is plausible. You have failed to substantiate that assertion. You have the onus here, and impugning the servicemen who carry out military actions as being "high-school dropouts" and unable to reason where in the world they are has not helped your case in the least.
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But guarding by whom against whom?
Depends on whose perspective you're referring to. The guards'? The scientists'? The countries'?
And also I reiterate you need a high visibility of your forces for it to be a deterrent.
Deterrent for what?
OK I'll put it another way, where do the guards come from and what motive do they have to be there?
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You have stated that the Ice Wall could be guarded by high-school dropouts.
Somewhat true. They need to watch their technological devices and make necessary actions when/if anyone should pass a certain area. They are also to continually do an inventory count, and call a phone number once their inventory of certain supplies reaches a certain, predetermined number. Then, pilots of the conspiracy from this military sect would bring their supplies. They would then take the supplies off the craft, and put them in their designated spots in the facility.
You've asserted that the conspiracy is plausible. You have failed to substantiate that assertion. You have the onus here, and impugning the servicemen who carry out military actions as being "high-school dropouts" and unable to reason where in the world they are has not helped your case in the least.
I already said why that wasn't going to work. There are too many assumptions.
Also, my high school dropout suggestion was to show the problem with your claim that everyone in the military would know about the rotation of the stars and their subsequent locations, revealing to them that the Earth was a sphere and that they would know where they are.
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OK I'll put it another way, where do the guards come from and what motive do they have to be there?
Where they come from? They are most likely members of military groups, probably primarily of US and Russian citizenship. Other nations with advanced space programs could also contribute technology and troops.
As for their motive, they are simply following orders. They are to guard X area for...scientific purposes or what have you. Or, in line with the treaty, they are to ensure peace and illegal activity does not commence on or near the continent. Included in that is the observation towards the inner-earth and dealing with subsequent craft beyond a certain point.
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You have stated that the Ice Wall could be guarded by high-school dropouts.
Somewhat true. They need to watch their technological devices and make necessary actions when/if anyone should pass a certain area. They are also to continually do an inventory count, and call a phone number once their inventory of certain supplies reaches a certain, predetermined number. Then, pilots of the conspiracy from this military sect would bring their supplies. They would then take the supplies off the craft, and put them in their designated spots in the facility.
You've asserted that the conspiracy is plausible. You have failed to substantiate that assertion. You have the onus here, and impugning the servicemen who carry out military actions as being "high-school dropouts" and unable to reason where in the world they are has not helped your case in the least.
I already said why that wasn't going to work. There are too many assumptions.
Also, my high school dropout suggestion was to show the problem with your claim that everyone in the military would know about the rotation of the stars and their subsequent locations, revealing to them that the Earth was a sphere and that they would know where they are.
Just the "call a phone number" demonstrates how naive you are about military operations. Just give up.
You're definitely building a straw man argument there, with "revealing to them that the Earth was a sphere" in particular.
I've not been through basic, but I suspect that if you can't navigate by the stars, you don't get to move on. Do you think that anyone would be placed in this hostile environment without survival training? I don't know of any military survival training that would not include such information, do you? I would expect that any deployment to the Ice Wall would include training with a review of the relevant geography and the navigational cues of the Sun and stars.
Do you no longer assert that the conspiracy theory is plausible, or even not implausible?
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Just the "call a phone number" demonstrates how naive you are about military operations. Just give up.
"Many countries have a Signal Corps, whose main function is usually communication (in modern times, usually radio, telephone or now digital communications on the battlefield)."
Would you prefer if I put radio or other methods of communication? It doesn't change anything really. Since you didn't deny other aspects of that first paragraph, I'm assuming you aren't refuting the ease of those occurrences.
I've not been through basic, but I suspect that if you can't navigate by the stars, you don't get to move on. Do you think that anyone would be placed in this hostile environment without survival training? I don't know of any military survival training that would not include such information, do you? I would expect that any deployment to the Ice Wall would include training with a review of the relevant geography and the navigational cues of the Sun and stars.
Do you no longer assert that the conspiracy theory is plausible, or even not implausible?
I do not know what guards of the Ice Wall would be taught in regards to the celestial bodies in relation to their position at the Ice Wall. I would speculate that some information regarding it would be included if it were true.
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Just the "call a phone number" demonstrates how naive you are about military operations. Just give up.
"Many countries have a Signal Corps, whose main function is usually communication (in modern times, usually radio, telephone or now digital communications on the battlefield)."
Would you prefer if I put radio or other methods of communication? It doesn't change anything really. Since you didn't deny other aspects of that first paragraph, I'm assuming you aren't refuting the ease of those occurrences.
I've not been through basic, but I suspect that if you can't navigate by the stars, you don't get to move on. Do you think that anyone would be placed in this hostile environment without survival training? I don't know of any military survival training that would not include such information, do you? I would expect that any deployment to the Ice Wall would include training with a review of the relevant geography and the navigational cues of the Sun and stars.
Do you no longer assert that the conspiracy theory is plausible, or even not implausible?
I do not know what guards of the Ice Wall would be taught in regards to the celestial bodies in relation to their position at the Ice Wall. I would speculate that some information regarding it would be included if it were true.
I would prefer that you get a clue. No, it's not signaling. Requisitioning is done by computer data entry in the field, not by a phone call. Even done to the unit level these days, computer networks reach stationed personnel. The "high-school dropouts" select the correct system, key in the correct family and classification and a host of other types of data, including whether the item will be used in battle. The user must select the correct priority and delivery date against the expense of each and deal with the available budget, both of financial and people resources. They must consider contingencies such as inclement weather and equipment failure. They must anticipate needs against the future weather and troop conditions. They may even have to determine when to escalate a shortage or a defect up the chain of command. They use properly record use, loss, and spoilage. They must remain aware of innovations and improvements. They do a lot with a great deal of intelligence. You haven't a clue.
You're quite wrong about your assumption. The rest of your paragraph was equally inane. I'm not going to teach you the error of your ways on each and every misstep.
The conspiracy has not been shown to be plausible and should be dismissed out of hand until it is.
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All of which would be trained and instructed. Why you're still using high school dropouts is weird. I already explained why I used the idea of them initially.
The conspiracy has not been shown to be plausible and should be dismissed out of hand until it is.
Also known as ignorance. I wish I could dismiss stuff as easily.
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Mr Divito,
May I take this opportunity to to say whilst I'm sure your well meaning your posts do show an ignorance of the logistics, requirements , nature but most importantly the role of the Armed Services.
This , without exposing too much of my personal life is a topic I can talk on authoritatively.Please read ignorance as the lack of knowlege rather than a character trait.
Riles
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Mr Divito,
May I take this opportunity to to say whilst I'm sure your well meaning your posts do show an ignorance of the logistics, requirements , nature but most importantly the role of the Armed Services.
This , without exposing too much of my personal life is a topic I can talk on authoritatively.Please read ignorance as the lack of knowlege rather than a character trait.
Riles
I would never profess myself as an expert in that area, although nothing has been stated that I would deem outlandish in accord with the guarding of an Ice Wall. In fact, making up explanations to account for people's disbelief has been fun. I intend to learn more about various aspects as this continues. I don't want to seem too hard-headed about any of this.
On that, I'm going to sleep. Night.
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This thread is hilarious.
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think im going to stalk divito
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This thread is hilarious.
That was the intention. Sadly not quite in the way I thought.
Instead of the positive and humorous additions to the list of people in the conspiracy all we've had is a waaaayyyy too serious discussion about the finer points of military logistics. And there was me thinking this was a joke website.
You. All. Fail.
L2Humour.
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You haven't a clue.
I agree. I have not seen such an insulting string of claims against the Military in my life, not even during the Vietnam days.
As I said in another place, it is easy to make a convincing argument for even the most absurd claims. But you do not have to say noncommissioned military and/or high school dropouts are so stupid. Human beings are multifaceted, complex and intelligent beings that ask questions and use their intelligence, and find out what they are not supposed to know, even if they suffer mental retardation.
Studies show that convicted felons have below average intelligence and below average studies, and yet escapes and felonies from prison are rampant.
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I have not seen such an insulting string of claims against the Military in my life, not even during the Vietnam days.
Care to point out these claims?
But you do not have to say noncommissioned military and/or high school dropouts are so stupid.
Where did I say this?
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I have not seen such an insulting string of claims against the Military in my life, not even during the Vietnam days.
Care to point out these claims?
But you do not have to say noncommissioned military and/or high school dropouts are so stupid.
Where did I say this?
Are you saying that you are not assuming those guards are less intelligent, less prepared, less inquisitive than you? The million dollar bribe is at least laughable but not insulting.
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bondurant, go to Australia and map it out yourself, then you can see the real shape, shown in the RE model.
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Simon Singh is also "in on it". :o
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Divito has got to be, without a single shred of the doubt, the best god damn forum Debater, Bait layer I have ever seen in my life.
*tip o the hat, mang* ;)
(http://beerbaron.kibblesnbits.net/SA/Macros/dildog.jpg)
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Divito has got to be, without a single shred of the doubt, the best god damn forum Debater, Bait layer I have ever seen in my life.
*tip o the hat, mang* ;)
(http://beerbaron.kibblesnbits.net/SA/Macros/dildog.jpg)
I agree. In my short time here I have already recognized the skills. Cheers to Divito! :thumbsup:
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Touching on the earlier points, I'm sorry if my lack of knowledge disgraced the military in any way.
Are you saying that you are not assuming those guards are less intelligent, less prepared, less inquisitive than you? The million dollar bribe is at least laughable but not insulting.
I would assume they'd take less sharp individuals for such a detail. That's of course not always going to be the case, as you've got the various ranks to control your squads etc...
Sending highly intelligent people to such a locale for such an assignment wouldn't be wise for the supposed conspiracy. If there was an Ice Wall, it would make far more sense to dispatch impressionable youths, of lesser intelligence. This ensures less questioning of orders initially, longer years of service in the oblivion, and essentially guarantees that they won't be able to figure out the sky doesn't make sense.
This is of course, simple speculation.
PS - Thanks for the kind words. I was fearing a wag of the finger :D
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I would officially like to add more people to the conspiracy.
I was doing some wireless network work at the local VFW (my parents are aux members). i had some downtime so I was reading the list of all the medals people can receive. There were two that struck me.
First you can get a medal for traveling to Antarctica and you can get one for wintering in Antarctica.
So I propose that the military is also in on the conspiracy and that every solder that travels down there is paid one fat bonus.
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Touching on the earlier points, I'm sorry if my lack of knowledge disgraced the military in any way.
Are you saying that you are not assuming those guards are less intelligent, less prepared, less inquisitive than you? The million dollar bribe is at least laughable but not insulting.
I would assume they'd take less sharp individuals for such a detail. That's of course not always going to be the case, as you've got the various ranks to control your squads etc...
Sending highly intelligent people to such a locale for such an assignment wouldn't be wise for the supposed conspiracy. If there was an Ice Wall, it would make far more sense to dispatch impressionable youths, of lesser intelligence. This ensures less questioning of orders initially, longer years of service in the oblivion, and essentially guarantees that they won't be able to figure out the sky doesn't make sense.
This is of course, simple speculation.
PS - Thanks for the kind words. I was fearing a wag of the finger :D
I was, and am, waging my finger, only not in the name calling tradition of this forum.
I have seen children, cleaning ladies, domestic help and other people from the lower levels of our work force at work and they are not the robots with total lack of intelligence and need to inquire everything that you portray. They ask themselves everything from the decisions of management to the affaires of colleagues. Even less fortunate people ask themselves and others the most unexpected questions, and half of them go on to gossip about it.
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<snip>
I have seen children, cleaning ladies, domestic help and other people from the lower levels of our work force at work and they are not the robots with total lack of intelligence and need to inquire everything that you portray. They ask themselves everything from the decisions of management to the affaires of colleagues. Even less fortunate people ask themselves and others the most unexpected questions, and half of them go on to gossip about it.
Holy shit! Way to stand up for the "little people"! I don't know whether to cry or put a gun to my head. Hara, can you help me out here? ???
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<snip>
I have seen children, cleaning ladies, domestic help and other people from the lower levels of our work force at work and they are not the robots with total lack of intelligence and need to inquire everything that you portray. They ask themselves everything from the decisions of management to the affaires of colleagues. Even less fortunate people ask themselves and others the most unexpected questions, and half of them go on to gossip about it.
Holy shit! Way to stand up for the "little people"! I don't know whether to cry or put a gun to my head. Hara, can you help me out here? ???
I'm not Hara, but I'm pretty sure the gun to the head would be the best course of action in this situation. You might actually want to try 2 guns. Actually, lock yourself in a garage with a car running and put 2 guns to your head...that should about cover it....WAIT!!!! do it while hanging yourself over a bed of spikes!!!!!!
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I have seen children, cleaning ladies, domestic help and other people from the lower levels of our work force at work and they are not the robots with total lack of intelligence and need to inquire everything that you portray. They ask themselves everything from the decisions of management to the affaires of colleagues. Even less fortunate people ask themselves and others the most unexpected questions, and half of them go on to gossip about it.
Ugh, just like Gulliver. Trying to slander my argument with elements of compassion or sympathy doesn't make your argument more valid.
I never said that children, cleaning ladies or the "lower levels of our work force" are robots with a "total lack of intelligence." You guys really need to stop expanding my statements into completely false and imagined things.
I also never said they would never question their superiors' decisions. I said they would be "less likely" to, provided they were young and impressionable. I don't doubt that there would be gossip among the guards.
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Wrong. They did not need to be in on the conspiracy.
...Because? Or were you just going to assert that they accidentally generated scientifically repeatable experiments that proved the earth's spherical nature?
Could be a number of reasons for why. For one, they could be told anything regarding a detail in Antarctica. They are not required to be in on the conspiracy.
The problem with that is that then they wouldn't kill/sink any approaching ships, because it would be against the rules of engagement. They have to be both in on the conspiracy and nefarious.
Wrong again. Governments are not required to be in on the conspiracy, but it's likely a few would know. Space agencies of governments and "private" ones are obviously needed to be involved however.
Wrong. Forget space travel; far more important to the formation of world history is the simple size and shape of the world's oceans. Many, many, many people have been involved in disputes, shipping routes, and wars and battles that depended upon information about the size and shape of the oceans and major seas of the world being accurate. They would all need to be in on the conspiracy or all blissfully unaware of why their estimates keep turning out wrong.
Not surprised by your stupid assumption.
Those who live in glass houses...
Why would they never claim to see it? It still doesn't prove anything. You're doing a terrible job so far.
Yeah, a mysterious curvature to the Earth that's only visible at very high altitudes doesn't prove anything. It's just an optical illusion that doesn't work at ground level or even small hills because of the magical leprechauns that refract light back to the dark matter acceleration disk conspiracy.
Care to share?
We could start with the existence of an entire Universe expanding in every direction, every direction, including what should be "downwards" relative to the theoretical flat earth's acceleration, full of spherical bodies and not a single flat planet.
Is the sun not round?
It's both round, and ninety-three million miles away.
As for the stuff I didn't comment on, it was just too stupid to bother.
If you took this attitude towards every bit of every post someone made, we'd all be much happier.
I'm sure some 18-year old high school drop out that enlisted can tell his exact location by looking at the stars. Not to mention, they can easily be told they are guarding something in Antarctica which wouldn't be that far from the truth. You're not exactly brought up to question your orders in the military.
And as extensive and formidable your personal knowledge of the military and the way it is conducted no doubt is, derived directly from such prestigious sources as watching Full Metal Jacket a half dozen times, you seem to have neglected a few key aspects, such as;
- The personnel needed to oversee and assign and manage these numerous antarctic stations, a task which inherently requires knowing the size and shape of the Earth.
- The shipping for all the materials and supplies needed to maintain these way stations, which requires captains and certain staff on board ships also having said information.
- The possibility that maybe not everyone in the military is as blazingly idiotic as, say, you, and might be able to notice things like days being much longer (but still at a regular rhythm, contrary to our current expectations of conditions around the poles), the increased, rather than decreased, rotation of the stars, the unusual distances and times involved in transportation and travel over what would be expected... I mean, I suppose they could just pick out the stupidest soldiers imaginable, but that seems counter-productive to their goal of keeping this massive conspiracy entirely secure, especially given the extremely sensitive and expensive equipment needed for this continued indefinite operation.
- Where the fuck the money for this entire thing is coming from, anyway.
In short, you're an absolutely terrible skeptic. Please save the job for those with at least a semblance of credibility.
If you consider all that plausible, you really must believe that unicorns are plausible.
Partly a straw man, but other than that, are you denying that there isn't a misconception amongst how the idea of a unicorn appeared?[/quote]
Unicorns, a powerful horse with a single horn- gentle around maidens or children, but capable of savage fury. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceros)
Dragons- Serpentine, lizard-like river dwellers of staggering size, power, and viciousness. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crocodile)
Fairies- Mischievious, tiny people that live in trees and can be alternately helpful or malicious. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkeys)
Ogres- Large, hairy humanoid beings that hate and eat human beings (see also giants and nephilim). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthals)
Flat Earth- A belief that, because the Earth appears to be flat, it is flat. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon)
Lots of myths have origins. So what?
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Better question: "Who really gives a turtle shit?"
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Another group for the conspiracy: The media.
You would think that a few people would break their silence over the conspiracy and leak it to the press, but nobody ever has. If they have tried to tell their story, it's never made it's way into the public domain. And quality investigative journals such as the National Enquirer would be all over it like a rash if there was even a hint of a conspiracy.
As for "Why"? Well, there must be something in it for them other than the scoop of the millennium. Major kick-backs from the governments of the world.
I'll never trust the BBC again, the lying bastards.
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...Because? Or were you just going to assert that they accidentally generated scientifically repeatable experiments that proved the earth's spherical nature?
They didn't do it accidentally. They recorded their experiments and their observations, I don't see what the fuss is.
The problem with that is that then they wouldn't kill/sink any approaching ships, because it would be against the rules of engagement. They have to be both in on the conspiracy and nefarious.
They kill and sink approaching ships? How do you know this?
Wrong. Forget space travel; far more important to the formation of world history is the simple size and shape of the world's oceans. Many, many, many people have been involved in disputes, shipping routes, and wars and battles that depended upon information about the size and shape of the oceans and major seas of the world being accurate. They would all need to be in on the conspiracy or all blissfully unaware of why their estimates keep turning out wrong.
The "shape" of the ocean doesn't have relevance. But clearly it hasn't been inaccurate over all these years. Explain again how these people are in on the conspiracy?
Yeah, a mysterious curvature to the Earth that's only visible at very high altitudes doesn't prove anything. It's just an optical illusion that doesn't work at ground level or even small hills because of the magical leprechauns that refract light back to the dark matter acceleration disk conspiracy.
Another Criss Angel believer?
We could start with the existence of an entire Universe expanding in every direction, every direction, including what should be "downwards" relative to the theoretical flat earth's acceleration, full of spherical bodies and not a single flat planet.
Well, besides that any information about the universe would be tainted if this theory were true, where did I say the universe wasn't expanding?
Speculating about the UA though...who is to say that the Earth isn't some flat portion of rock that was shot upwards from the Big Bang? Given all the facts, clearly unlikely, but so is this flat Earth theory.
And as extensive and formidable your personal knowledge of the military and the way it is conducted no doubt is, derived directly from such prestigious sources as watching Full Metal Jacket a half dozen times, you seem to have neglected a few key aspects, such as;
Never seen that movie, and that isn't my opinion of the military. Convenient of you to think so though.
- The personnel needed to oversee and assign and manage these numerous antarctic stations, a task which inherently requires knowing the size and shape of the Earth.
- The shipping for all the materials and supplies needed to maintain these way stations, which requires captains and certain staff on board ships also having said information.
- The possibility that maybe not everyone in the military is as blazingly idiotic as, say, you, and might be able to notice things like days being much longer (but still at a regular rhythm, contrary to our current expectations of conditions around the poles), the increased, rather than decreased, rotation of the stars, the unusual distances and times involved in transportation and travel over what would be expected... I mean, I suppose they could just pick out the stupidest soldiers imaginable, but that seems counter-productive to their goal of keeping this massive conspiracy entirely secure, especially given the extremely sensitive and expensive equipment needed for this continued indefinite operation.
- Where the fuck the money for this entire thing is coming from, anyway.
This proves that every member of the military is in on the conspiracy? No. A sect of the military, employed by NASA and other members of the conspiracy would suit just fine.
What distances and times do you think they'd notice for travel? Where are they traveling?
Why would the money come from anywhere else? $16B to NASA, and include the other various agencies, I'm sure there is enough to go around.
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Spaceship One was entirely private and it went up into space, they couldn't have been involved in the conspiracy, and they didn't report back anything strange. A private force in america would surely capitalize on any massive government conspiracy.
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A private force in america would surely capitalize on any massive government conspiracy.
Capitalize? What would they benefit from revealing a conspiracy?
"Hey, we here at X Company have discovered that NASA and other large players in space exploration have been involved in a conspiracy to make billions of dollars while purporting that the world is a sphere, when it is indeed, flat. Please buy our products."
The media would have a field-day with that. To be wrong about such an assumption would kill any company. They'd have no better shot at revealing the conspiracy than this forum does.
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Um, you go up to space, take pics, and come back down. Its not terribly hard, and they can easily do it again and again with all the interest they'd get.
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Um, you go up to space, take pics, and come back down. Its not terribly hard, and they can easily do it again and again with all the interest they'd get.
Again, what would they benefit?
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Um, you go up to space, take pics, and come back down. Its not terribly hard, and they can easily do it again and again with all the interest they'd get.
How do they prove their pictures are real?
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How do they prove their pictures are real?
Also a good point.
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I think i can bypass these conspiracy people and prove once and for all if the earth is flat or round.
I just bought a shovel.
I'm hoping to make it to the Olympics on time, otherwise, ill see you on the flip-side...literally
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Um, you go up to space, take pics, and come back down. Its not terribly hard, and they can easily do it again and again with all the interest they'd get.
Again, what would they benefit?
]
Publicity.
And to prove its real, they just take up skeptics. This isn't terrifically advanced stuff...
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They didn't do it accidentally. They recorded their experiments and their observations, I don't see what the fuss is.
The fuss is that they're repeatable experiments that give roughly accurate measurements for the size and shape of the Earth and the distance of the Moon and Sun. These measurements also roundly (ba dum ching) disprove any tenable flat earth model.
[quote[/quote]
They kill and sink approaching ships? How do you know this?[/quote]
Why do FE'ers, or would-be devil advocates, love trying to be coy so much? If they don't terminate approaching ships then they have to warn them off. If they warn them off, word gets out that no one can go on antactic expeditions without MIBs swarming them and sending them away.
Unless you're going to suggest that the government has memory erasing devices.
The "shape" of the ocean doesn't have relevance. But clearly it hasn't been inaccurate over all these years. Explain again how these people are in on the conspiracy?
Are you really this dense? The size and shape of the Oceans as we know them only works on a globe. Note how every even somewhat tenable map of the Flat Earth shows the oceans much larger in the Southern hemisphere. This completely fucks up world history beyond recognition.
Well, besides that any information about the universe would be tainted if this theory were true, where did I say the universe wasn't expanding?
The universe cannot be expanding in every direction if it is constantly accelerating in one direction, for reasons that I hope are obvious.
Speculating about the UA though...who is to say that the Earth isn't some flat portion of rock that was shot upwards from the Big Bang? Given all the facts, clearly unlikely, but so is this flat Earth theory.
Ockham's fucking razor is to say so. Is there a single valid reason to believe in a flat earth that requires an enormous conspiracy to maintain it's existence?
Never seen that movie, and that isn't my opinion of the military. Convenient of you to think so though.
Oh, shut your gob hole. Don't insult everyone in the military and then try to play the part of the wounded victim when people call you out on it.
This proves that every member of the military is in on the conspiracy? No. A sect of the military, employed by NASA and other members of the conspiracy would suit just fine.
Everyone in a position of oversight would have to be in on the conspiracy, and able to maintain this secret against every under officer and enlisted man. It is true that not every single member of the several million man military would have to be in on the conspiracy, but it is also true that no one claimed this. What you seem to be unable to understand is that even the few dozen thousand over the centuries who would have had to be in on it makes this conspiracy improbably to a degree that it would be difficult to express in numerical form if we were to turn every atom in the Universe to ink and paper.
What distances and times do you think they'd notice for travel? Where are they traveling?
I think that the many thousands of soldiers we had in the Asian-Pacific in WWII would, for instance, notice that all the travel distances between islands were three times as long as estimated.
Why would the money come from anywhere else? $16B to NASA, and include the other various agencies, I'm sure there is enough to go around.
That's because you're lacking in knowledge and imagination. Sixteen billion is nothing for a large government/military operation of the scale you're suggesting. In four years, for comparison, the Iraq war has rung up 400 million. And these are basic operational costs; what you need to maintain that kind of conspiracy, with money as your only motivation, even if that would suffice, is going to be much greater; people aren't going to keep a lid on that kind of secret for a living wage.
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this is just pathetic how can you guys actually belive this not every single government or who ever you bleive is in on this croc would not give away some sort of information to someone at some point think of how many people are in government etc
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The fuss is that they're repeatable experiments that give roughly accurate measurements for the size and shape of the Earth and the distance of the Moon and Sun. These measurements also roundly (ba dum ching) disprove any tenable flat earth model.
I've never denied that their experiments were repeatable, or that they support conventional wisdom.
Why do FE'ers, or would-be devil advocates, love trying to be coy so much? If they don't terminate approaching ships then they have to warn them off. If they warn them off, word gets out that no one can go on antactic expeditions without MIBs swarming them and sending them away.
Unless you're going to suggest that the government has memory erasing devices.
How many people do you suppose venture out that far? We also don't know how the navigation methods used work out when heading south and where they'd end up.
As for 'memory erasing devices', I wouldn't put it passed them that they could induce amnesia through its various causes. Although none of us could really know.
Are you really this dense? The size and shape of the Oceans as we know them only works on a globe. Note how every even somewhat tenable map of the Flat Earth shows the oceans much larger in the Southern hemisphere. This completely fucks up world history beyond recognition.
Those flat Earth maps are only taking the globe and supplanting it into a plane. It is in no way accurate, that should be a given.
The universe cannot be expanding in every direction if it is constantly accelerating in one direction, for reasons that I hope are obvious.
Since when is the Earth, the universe?
Is there a single valid reason to believe in a flat earth that requires an enormous conspiracy to maintain it's existence?
As Tom would say, "I look out my window and it's flat"...but as for really valid? There isn't anything really.
Oh, shut your gob hole. Don't insult everyone in the military and then try to play the part of the wounded victim when people call you out on it.
Well, not everyone in the military is 18-years old, nor are they all high-school dropouts. Quite the opposite in fact. So I'm confused how I insulted 'everyone in the military'. Another trig and Gulliver attempt?
Everyone in a position of oversight would have to be in on the conspiracy, and able to maintain this secret against every under officer and enlisted man. It is true that not every single member of the several million man military would have to be in on the conspiracy, but it is also true that no one claimed this. What you seem to be unable to understand is that even the few dozen thousand over the centuries who would have had to be in on it makes this conspiracy improbably to a degree that it would be difficult to express in numerical form if we were to turn every atom in the Universe to ink and paper.
12,000 military members since the 1960s? Why so many?
I think that the many thousands of soldiers we had in the Asian-Pacific in WWII would, for instance, notice that all the travel distances between islands were three times as long as estimated.
I suppose the people in the conspiracy would use the global estimated time to reach Antarctica, instead of using a more accurate figure?? Sounds smart.
That's because you're lacking in knowledge and imagination. Sixteen billion is nothing for a large government/military operation of the scale you're suggesting. In four years, for comparison, the Iraq war has rung up 400 million. And these are basic operational costs; what you need to maintain that kind of conspiracy, with money as your only motivation, even if that would suffice, is going to be much greater; people aren't going to keep a lid on that kind of secret for a living wage.
What I'm suggesting isn't large at all in regards to military involvement. Quite the opposite.
You're comparing 4 years @ 100M per year to the average of $8.559 billion ($12.681 billion dollars in real terms) per year that NASA has gotten over its 49 years. Ok.
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Publicity.
And publicity gets them what?
And like Common posed earlier, how would they prove their photos are any more believable than NASA's??
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...
Are you really this dense? The size and shape of the Oceans as we know them only works on a globe. Note how every even somewhat tenable map of the Flat Earth shows the oceans much larger in the Southern hemisphere. This completely fucks up world history beyond recognition.
Those flat Earth maps are only taking the globe and supplanting it into a plane. It is in no way accurate, that should be a given.
Nope. Those maps are based on the FE logic of the mapping of longitude and latitude onto the disc. What you see on the map is what is given. (Otherwise, someone with an atlas and a GPS device (or similar device or method) would report the error.) The distances and areas are stretched starting around the Arctic Circle and compressed north of that line. The measuring areas in Australia of larger tracts of land should quickly demonstrate whether FE or RE is correct. A well-documented voyage around Antarctica, such as the round-the-world yacht races, should also quickly demonstrate which is correct. FE has many ways to demonstrate its accuracy, yet all we heard is the drone of inane theories and hand washing. The RE Team, on the overhand, has 20 documented experiments supporting RE and over 70 challenges to FE, written up in the RE Primer.
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Nope. Those maps are based on the FE logic of the mapping of longitude and latitude onto the disc. What you see on the map is what is given. (Otherwise, someone with an atlas and a GPS device (or similar device or method) would report the error.) The distances and areas are stretched starting around the Arctic Circle and compressed north of that line. The measuring areas in Australia of larger tracts of land should quickly demonstrate whether FE or RE is correct. A well-documented voyage around Antarctica, such as the round-the-world yacht races, should also quickly demonstrate which is correct. FE has many ways to demonstrate its accuracy, yet all we heard is the drone of inane theories and hand washing. The RE Team, on the overhand, has 20 documented experiments supporting RE and over 70 challenges to FE, written up in the RE Primer.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/flying_leaf/test1.jpg)
This is done by polarization, and doesn't involve any information regarding measurements.
What maps are based on the mapping of longitude and latitude onto the disc?
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Nope. Those maps are based on the FE logic of the mapping of longitude and latitude onto the disc. What you see on the map is what is given. (Otherwise, someone with an atlas and a GPS device (or similar device or method) would report the error.) The distances and areas are stretched starting around the Arctic Circle and compressed north of that line. The measuring areas in Australia of larger tracts of land should quickly demonstrate whether FE or RE is correct. A well-documented voyage around Antarctica, such as the round-the-world yacht races, should also quickly demonstrate which is correct. FE has many ways to demonstrate its accuracy, yet all we heard is the drone of inane theories and hand washing. The RE Team, on the overhand, has 20 documented experiments supporting RE and over 70 challenges to FE, written up in the RE Primer.
This is done by polarization, and doesn't involve any information regarding measurements.
What maps are based on the mapping of longitude and latitude onto the disc?
That one.
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That one.
So where is the data on that map? Or even in relation to that specific map?
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That one.
So where is the data on that map? Or even in relation to that specific map?
On the map.
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/me looks again...and realizes there is none like he already knew.
Again, that map was simply a polarization. It only illustrates the concept of what visualizing a flat Earth would be like. There was no data used in its creation, merely clicking a filter button.
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/me looks again...and realizes there is none like he already knew.
Again, that map was simply a polarization. It only illustrates the concept of what visualizing a flat Earth would be like. There was no data used in its creation, merely clicking a filter button.
Wrong. There's a great deal of data on the original globe that is mapped by the process onto the disc. You're just too blind to see.
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Wrong. There's a great deal of data on the original globe that is mapped by the process onto the disc. You're just too blind to see.
You do realize that relying on that flat Earth map wouldn't get you to your locations right? Mainly because it's a distortion of that "globular" data.
I was referring to a real flat Earth map that actually has accurate data, to which there isn't one. My fault.
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Wrong. There's a great deal of data on the original globe that is mapped by the process onto the disc. You're just too blind to see.
You do realize that relying on that flat Earth map wouldn't get you to your locations right? Mainly because it's a distortion of that "globular" data.
I was referring to a real flat Earth map that actually has accurate data, to which there isn't one. My fault.
If you ever expected to use a map based on FE to get to the right location, you erred. FE must, by its projection create for itself inconsistencies that cannot be resolved. TomB tries to argue, for example, that modern aircraft, equipped with internal guidance and airspeed monitors, are propelled by "magical" jet streams in the Southern Hemisphere, in all directions, in order to arrive as quickly as they do. Australian real estate brokers, South African surveyors, Arctic explorers, and a host of others would quickly discover that the FE model of the world, with its "UN Logo" map as its guide, fails to match reality. There are a number of challenges in the RE Primer, for which I've not had time to prepare experiments, that deal with these problems in FE.
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I'm still tempted to try plotting one.
And yea, Tom's jet stream claim is pretty out there.
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I'm still tempted to try plotting one.
And yea, Tom's jet stream claim is pretty out there.
I'm really serious that polarization map is the way to go. You need to keep the latitude equally spaced and concentric on the North Pole and longitude lines equally divergent and straight from the North Pole to the edge. Otherwise, FE gets positioning errors. So really just take a good polar projection map, (They're already out there.) and you have your map in hand.
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I've never denied that their experiments were repeatable, or that they support conventional wisdom.
Their experiments directly disprove FE theory. Either you are arguing that their experiments are wrong, or you're arguing that FE is unequivocally false. Which is it? (Side note that their experiments are in fact wrong, but with some minor adjustments we arrive at the correct estimates).
How many people do you suppose venture out that far?
Thousands every year. Maybe you should have some rudimentary knowledge of the things you're going to speculate on.
We also don't know how the navigation methods used work out when heading south and where they'd end up.
Don't be idiotic, of course we do. If you mean to say that we don't know how Southward navigation would work if FE's theories were true, that's probably because there isn't a logical solution. Hence, the claims can be dismissed as false.
As for 'memory erasing devices', I wouldn't put it passed them that they could induce amnesia through its various causes. Although none of us could really know.
You need to stop pretending that all ideas are equally valid. It's neither intelligent nor open minded. A good, critical thinker will try to discount bad ideas so as to get at the good ones. Value judgments= teh win, as they say. Flat earth is easy to discount. Your attempts at defending it avail no one and advance nothing like human knowledge.
Those flat Earth maps are only taking the globe and supplanting it into a plane. It is in no way accurate, that should be a given.
That's because it's impossible for it to be accurate while maintaining the measurements known for the world's oceans and shipping routes, because they rely on a curved plane. Get this through your head; a flat earth is impossible without vastly distorting some area of the globe. That's why map-makers have such a difficult time.
Since when is the Earth, the universe?
If the Earth were constantly accelerating in one direction in an otherwise normal Universe that were expanding outwards, and we had been doing so for at least human history, we would not see a red shift in the stars and bodies "above" us, i.e., those that we are accelerating towards; we would be approaching them at a speed many times that of light. This idea is untenable. FE requires discarding all our working knowledge of the Universe, as the two are incompatible.
As Tom would say, "I look out my window and it's flat"...but as for really valid? There isn't anything really.
Then shave off the unnecessary assumptions, man. This isn't rock science.
Well, not everyone in the military is 18-years old, nor are they all high-school dropouts. Quite the opposite in fact. So I'm confused how I insulted 'everyone in the military'. Another trig and Gulliver attempt?
Because your post directly implied that this was the norm for military personnel. Moreover, since the issue was not everyone figuring out the problems at hand, but rather anyone doing so, you were implying that everyone in the military was a slack jawed college dropout.
If you did not mean to imply this, perhaps you should study English further and advance your own education so that you may express yourself more clearly in the future and avoid that kind of socially awkward mistake.
12,000 military members since the 1960s? Why so many?
Because the ice wall would have to be very massive, several times the size of the equator, and maintaining and keeping track of all those stations is going to require a lot of effort. Also, 1960's is pulled out of your ass; try since the late 18th century, when, need I remind you, maintaining the conspiracy with current technology would have been insanely more difficult.
I suppose the people in the conspiracy would use the global estimated time to reach Antarctica, instead of using a more accurate figure?? Sounds smart.
Reverse it. The times would be much longer than predicted, not much shorter; you're talking about crossing bodies of water that are more than twice as large as predicted.
What I'm suggesting isn't large at all in regards to military involvement. Quite the opposite.
What are you suggesting, then? And does it have any grounding in anything like reality?
You're comparing 4 years @ 100M per year to the average of $8.559 billion ($12.681 billion dollars in real terms) per year that NASA has gotten over its 49 years. Ok.
Yes, I am. And Iraq is much, much smaller than the theoretical Ice Wall, and much more hospitable to life. Nor is it required that people there engage in large-scale deception. Where are you going with this?
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Their experiments directly disprove FE theory. Either you are arguing that their experiments are wrong, or you're arguing that FE is unequivocally false. Which is it? (Side note that their experiments are in fact wrong, but with some minor adjustments we arrive at the correct estimates).
They do not disprove anything. Documentation of their observations do not equate to actuality.
Thousands every year. Maybe you should have some rudimentary knowledge of the things you're going to speculate on.
"Approximately 29 nations, all signatory to the Antarctic Treaty, send personnel to perform seasonal (summer) and year-round research on the continent and in its surrounding oceans; the population of persons doing and supporting scientific research on the continent and its nearby islands south of 60 degrees south latitude (the region covered by the Antarctic Treaty) varies from approximately 4,000 in summer to 1,000 in winter; in addition, approximately 1,000 personnel including ship's crew and scientists doing onboard research are present in the waters of the treaty region."
They are confined to specific regions in accordance with nation's territorial claims. I would venture that most of the routes involve straight lines (or geodesics if the Earth is indeed a sphere) and their instruments bring them to areas more commonly known as Antarctica.
The treaty was also signed one year after the formation of NASA.
Don't be idiotic, of course we do. If you mean to say that we don't know how Southward navigation would work if FE's theories were true, that's probably because there isn't a logical solution. Hence, the claims can be dismissed as false.
We know what is claimed.
You need to stop pretending that all ideas are equally valid. It's neither intelligent nor open minded. A good, critical thinker will try to discount bad ideas so as to get at the good ones. Value judgments= teh win, as they say. Flat earth is easy to discount. Your attempts at defending it avail no one and advance nothing like human knowledge.
"Bad ideas" is a matter of subjectivity, not objectivity or facts. The same is apparent with values. They are relative and subjective.
The FET is very easy to discount, I agree.
That's because it's impossible for it to be accurate while maintaining the measurements known for the world's oceans and shipping routes, because they rely on a curved plane. Get this through your head; a flat earth is impossible without vastly distorting some area of the globe. That's why map-makers have such a difficult time.
I agree, some portion would need to be distorted.
If the Earth were constantly accelerating in one direction in an otherwise normal Universe that were expanding outwards, and we had been doing so for at least human history, we would not see a red shift in the stars and bodies "above" us, i.e., those that we are accelerating towards; we would be approaching them at a speed many times that of light. This idea is untenable. FE requires discarding all our working knowledge of the Universe, as the two are incompatible.
Um, "a redshift can occur when a light source moves away from an observer" - Why would you assume that the other celestial objects are moving slower than we are and not faster?
Because your post directly implied that this was the norm for military personnel. Moreover, since the issue was not everyone figuring out the problems at hand, but rather anyone doing so, you were implying that everyone in the military was a slack jawed college dropout.
No. My implication was that they wouldn't be stupid enough to send intelligent soldiers to the Ice Wall.
If you did not mean to imply this, perhaps you should study English further and advance your own education so that you may express yourself more clearly in the future and avoid that kind of socially awkward mistake.
Reading comprehension goes a long way. And it's not socially awkward. I rather enjoy when people read between the lines and infer something totally off-base than what was stated. Several people do it everyday on these forums. TheEngineer also makes good use of this tactic. People get caught up in an idea and their assumptions overshadow that of what was actually said. If more people concentrated on reading, there wouldn't be confusion.
Because the ice wall would have to be very massive, several times the size of the equator, and maintaining and keeping track of all those stations is going to require a lot of effort. Also, 1960's is pulled out of your ass; try since the late 18th century, when, need I remind you, maintaining the conspiracy with current technology would have been insanely more difficult.
As I said, I cannot speculate on the technology used that would greatly diminish the number of required personnel.
And the 1960s is not pulled out of my ass. NASA was formed in 1958. The discovery of their Earth's spherical nature or lack thereof would be probably be in the few years preceding or succeeding that formation.
Reverse it. The times would be much longer than predicted, not much shorter; you're talking about crossing bodies of water that are more than twice as large as predicted.
Reverse what? I said - "I suppose the people in the conspiracy would use the global estimated time to reach Antarctica, instead of using a more accurate figure?? Sounds smart."
What are you suggesting, then? And does it have any grounding in anything like reality?
I suggest that they have several technological triggers in place, although what they are and how effective they would be is something I cannot speculate on.
Yes, I am. And Iraq is much, much smaller than the theoretical Ice Wall, and much more hospitable to life. Nor is it required that people there engage in large-scale deception. Where are you going with this?
It seems hospitable enough for the scientists that inhabit it year-round.
I just found it interesting that you'd compare $100M to $12B and suggest that it wouldn't be enough motivation.
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I love these 'phantom experiments'.
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They are confined to specific regions in accordance with nation's territorial claims. I would venture that most of the routes involve straight lines (or geodesics if the Earth is indeed a sphere) and their instruments bring them to areas more commonly known as Antarctica.
Tell us how you know that they are confined to specific regions.
Are you arguing that explorers are forced onto just certain routes? When was the last time you explored a new city by just going in a straight line?
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Tell us how you know that they are confined to specific regions.
I don't really know I'll admit. But based on the territorial claims, I would imagine that much exploration outside of their own research stations and territories is limited. Other nations can also share their data.
If I were to speculate, I'd say that this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7e/Antarctica.jpg) is simply a section of the Ice Wall. A theory about the common navigational habits would still have to be formulated though.
Are you arguing that explorers are forced onto just certain routes?
I was referring to their initial journey to the portion of Antarctica they're traveling to. I imagine that they'd travel directly to their destination.
When was the last time you explored a new city by just going in a straight line?
Cities have obstructions. As far as I know, the ocean does not. At least not until you reach the Antarctic and discover icebergs. Again, I was referring to their initial travel route to it. Not of their exploration of the continent :)
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Just pointing out- - NASA was founded in 1958, but the russians also sent up sputnik I the year prior. So did the Russians start the conspiracy or did NASA? As we know, the political clime of the cold war would have prevented any cooperation between the US and Russia, and either side would LEAP at the chance to prove the other wrong.
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Unless the cold war was all a farce and part of the conspiracy
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But the cold war began before either side would have "known" the earth was flat... logic error approaching!
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They do not disprove anything. Documentation of their observations do not equate to actuality.
Of course they prove something. Either the observations are false, or the conjecture that the Earth is flat is false. You can, and others have, repeated these experiments and found them, within a certain acceptable margin of error, to be correct. They certainly roundly destroy FET claims.
"Approximately 29 nations, all signatory to the Antarctic Treaty, send personnel to perform seasonal (summer) and year-round research on the continent and in its surrounding oceans; the population of persons doing and supporting scientific research on the continent and its nearby islands south of 60 degrees south latitude (the region covered by the Antarctic Treaty) varies from approximately 4,000 in summer to 1,000 in winter; in addition, approximately 1,000 personnel including ship's crew and scientists doing onboard research are present in the waters of the treaty region."
They are confined to specific regions in accordance with nation's territorial claims. I would venture that most of the routes involve straight lines (or geodesics if the Earth is indeed a sphere) and their instruments bring them to areas more commonly known as Antarctica.
The treaty was also signed one year after the formation of NASA.
And we still have yet to address the thousands of private individuals who travel each year to the Antarctic, and those who did so long before the formation of NASA, including those who reached the South Pole.
We know what is claimed.
And if we trusted no third party testimony and no direct observation of our senses, we wouldn't know shit about shit, and we'd sit around twiddling our thumbs and waiting patiently for death. Your attempts to defeat any advancement of human knowledge because there is an absurdly small chance that people could be lying en masse for no good reason or everything we see could be a hallucination is, to say the least, bizarre. Familiarize yourself with Ockham's razor.
"Bad ideas" is a matter of subjectivity, not objectivity or facts. The same is apparent with values. They are relative and subjective.
Wrong. Lots of bad ideas can be tested and proven wrong.
The FET is very easy to discount, I agree.
Are you even trying to be consistent? How do you reconcile this with your last statement?
I agree, some portion would need to be distorted.
If I ask which parts would have such easily measurable distortions, are you going to make more mystical appeals to unknowable forces?
Um, "a redshift can occur when a light source moves away from an observer" - Why would you assume that the other celestial objects are moving slower than we are and not faster?
If they are accelerating at the same rate as us, there would be no red shift.
If they are accelerating at a slower rate than us, we would have caught them long ago.
If they are accelerating at a faster rate than us, they would be so far away that light from those stars would have no chance of reaching us within the lifespan of the Earth.
There's a lot of problems caused by constant acceleration.
No. My implication was that they wouldn't be stupid enough to send intelligent soldiers to the Ice Wall.
And yet they need to in order to insure that the very expensive technology is managed properly and the job done correctly. What a wonderfully delicious catch-22.
You made no such implication, you merely stated that the soldiers there would naturally be idiots. The simplest conclusion is that you think this is the default. But this goes back to that Ockham's Razor thing you're unfamiliar with.
As I said, I cannot speculate on the technology used that would greatly diminish the number of required personnel.
When you appeal to things you claim you cannot know, it's called "mysticism", and it doesn't really form any kind of an argument. It may be that there are mystical forces at work we can't understand, but without an ability to understand them or impact them, their existence is irrelevant, functionally, and can be discounted.
And the 1960s is not pulled out of my ass. NASA was formed in 1958. The discovery of their Earth's spherical nature or lack thereof would be probably be in the few years preceding or succeeding that formation.
Wrong. We have numerous proofs of the shape of the Earth that long precede this. They have been laboriously explained to you.
Reverse what? I said - "I suppose the people in the conspiracy would use the global estimated time to reach Antarctica, instead of using a more accurate figure?? Sounds smart."
Which they would be unable to do when the distances between locations are more than twice as wide. They can't magically make battleships travel at twice their normal cruising speed and not have anyone notice.
I suggest that they have several technological triggers in place, although what they are and how effective they would be is something I cannot speculate on.
This is functionally no different than your attributing it to magic, so I can dismiss your argument as a bad one.
It seems hospitable enough for the scientists that inhabit it year-round.
You might want to check again.
I just found it interesting that you'd compare $100M to $12B and suggest that it wouldn't be enough motivation.
Speaking of reading comprehension being key, check that number again. Not 400 million, chief, 400 billion. That's how much real military operations on the scale you're suggesting cost.
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Its often occurred to me how scary the world the Conspiracy Theorists live in must be.
"They" are out to deceive you, you cant trust what you see ,what your told , who you vote for ,who defends you ,who teaches you, who tells you the News the list just goes on.
You cant trust them because either they are in on it or are too stupid not to see that they are deceived.
On top of that they are a minority crying their warning into the wind of an unhearing and uncaring world.
What a scary world they live in.
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Of course they prove something. Either the observations are false, or the conjecture that the Earth is flat is false. You can, and others have, repeated these experiments and found them, within a certain acceptable margin of error, to be correct. They certainly roundly destroy FET claims.
I said they didn't disprove something. The observations obviously aren't imagined or anything, and the first implication of their results is that the Earth could be considered curved, or a sphere. However, it doesn't prove that alone. What you observe isn't always what is.
And we still have yet to address the thousands of private individuals who travel each year to the Antarctic, and those who did so long before the formation of NASA, including those who reached the South Pole.
True. There were over 20,000 people that visited Antarctica or the nearby waters two years ago. Although, it really depends on what you're trying to suggest for these people that go there. There are no cities, nowhere where you can simply stay a night or buy provisions. It would take a lot of money and forethought for some type of extended stay.
This would lead me to believe that the majority of those visits were limited to simply a bypass along the edge of the continent and limited to the water, or general flybys over the coast and part of the mainland. I haven't found anything regarding people actually reaching the South Pole that are simply tourists.
And if we trusted no third party testimony and no direct observation of our senses, we wouldn't know shit about shit, and we'd sit around twiddling our thumbs and waiting patiently for death. Your attempts to defeat any advancement of human knowledge because there is an absurdly small chance that people could be lying en masse for no good reason or everything we see could be a hallucination is, to say the least, bizarre. Familiarize yourself with Ockham's razor.
I never said everything we see is an hallucination. I just said that documentation of observation isn't solely proof. Several analogies support this. And I know all about Occam's Razor. All things being equal, and making the fewest amount of assumptions, the simplest solution is usually the best one.
Wrong. Lots of bad ideas can be tested and proven wrong.
Lots of ideas can be tested and proven wrong. The classification of them being 'bad' is the subjective part.
Are you even trying to be consistent? How do you reconcile this with your last statement?
Based on evidence available, it's easy to discount the FET. What is there to reconcile?
If I ask which parts would have such easily measurable distortions, are you going to make more mystical appeals to unknowable forces?
I'd have to make an attempt at plotting it and identifying areas that could come into question. No forces necessary.
If they are accelerating at the same rate as us, there would be no red shift. If they are accelerating at a slower rate than us, we would have caught them long ago. If they are accelerating at a faster rate than us, they would be so far away that light from those stars would have no chance of reaching us within the lifespan of the Earth.
True.
True.
Not true. Based on observation, their velocity wouldn't be much greater than ours if that were the case, and they are still moving away from us.
And yet they need to in order to insure that the very expensive technology is managed properly and the job done correctly. What a wonderfully delicious catch-22.
Like I said, it depends on the technology used. Versing someone in the usage of a system isn't that difficult. I teach people almost everyday, aspects of using their computer in varying degrees of difficulty. They don't need to be any smarter than following my instructions and building on that with experience.
As for fixing a problem that could arise. An engineer or technician can be there. They can either be from the conspiracy, or not. Even if they did discover that the stars don't quite make sense, do you really think that "oh my god, the Earth is flat" is the immediate conclusion they would draw? I find that very unlikely.
You made no such implication, you merely stated that the soldiers there would naturally be idiots. The simplest conclusion is that you think this is the default. But this goes back to that Ockham's Razor thing you're unfamiliar with.
I'm not unfamiliar with it. You can't hold it up as absolute truth though either.
And I didn't really state that. My assumption that they would send less than intelligent people would only be in line with intelligently staffing the Ice Wall and would cause a lot less problems than using extremely adept people. The military are very good at damage control and covering their bases. The phrase, 'military precision' comes to mind.
When you appeal to things you claim you cannot know, it's called "mysticism", and it doesn't really form any kind of an argument. It may be that there are mystical forces at work we can't understand, but without an ability to understand them or impact them, their existence is irrelevant, functionally, and can be discounted.
You're misusing the definition. My statement that I cannot speculate on the technology used is simply because I'm not well-versed in military technology or technology that would be useful in such an application. If I did have to speculate, some aspect of sonar or radar would be used. Obviously more advanced applications of such technologies would provide greater assurance and applicability.
Wrong. We have numerous proofs of the shape of the Earth that long precede this. They have been laboriously explained to you.
We have numerous observations that suggest the shape of the Earth that long precede this.
Which they would be unable to do when the distances between locations are more than twice as wide. They can't magically make battleships travel at twice their normal cruising speed and not have anyone notice.
That's not what I'm suggesting. Again, I said (sarcastically if you didn't catch that) - "I suppose the people in the conspiracy would use the global estimated time to reach Antarctica, instead of using a more accurate figure?? Sounds smart."
What I'm saying is, if the travel time for whatever method used was 6 hours using RE cartography, why would they tell their soldiers that? Would it not make more sense to tell them the accurate figure??
This is functionally no different than your attributing it to magic, so I can dismiss your argument as a bad one.
I didn't know forms of radar are magic. Thanks for that insight.
You might want to check again.
Check what again? Several sources cite its occupation by scientists, are you saying they don't really live there?
Speaking of reading comprehension being key, check that number again. Not 400 million, chief, 400 billion. That's how much real military operations on the scale you're suggesting cost.
Let's read your quote again:
In four years, for comparison, the Iraq war has rung up 400 million.
Upon investigation, you're indeed correct in your more recent post.
Let's look up more facts. For the invasion of Iraq, there were 297,494 troops used. Currently, there are 168,866 regular troops + ~182,000 private military contractors. These massively dwarf any military involvement that would be necessary for the guarding of the Ice Wall in my estimation and subsequent control center aspects from "HQ".
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...
Let's look up more facts. For the invasion of Iraq, there were 297,494 troops used. Currently, there are 168,866 regular troops + ~182,000 private military contractors. These massively dwarf any military involvement that would be necessary for the guarding of the Ice Wall in my estimation and subsequent control center aspects from "HQ".
Your estimates? Are you now saying that you are qualified to make such an estimation?
Is this the estimation where you have a lone soldier covering his territory riding a snowmobile over the world's roughest terrain in the world's coldest weather around during the months-long Antarctic night looking out six miles to the north for interlopers and stopping them? With only pilots coming out with rations? With equipment never intended for use in those conditions?
Have you checked the operating conditions for communication devices? For snowmobiles? For weapons? For fuel? Have you check the thermal rating of existing gear? Have you considered just how cold it would get on the Edge in the dark months of winter?
Don't you think it's time to give up supporting FE's implausible "Ice Guard" theory? I believe they offer it only as a joke. It's just too outlandish.
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Some of these long posts bore me. :(
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Your estimates? Are you now saying that you are qualified to make such an estimation?
No. What would qualify me to make such an estimation? Something that isn't subjective would be nice.
Is this the estimation where you have a lone soldier covering his territory riding a snowmobile over the world's roughest terrain in the world's coldest weather around during the months-long Antarctic night looking out six miles to the north for interlopers and stopping them? With only pilots coming out with rations? With equipment never intended for use in those conditions?
What do they need a snowmobile for? Are you suggesting that non-scientists can bypass the military's security so that they need to traverse the mainland in search of random people?
Have you checked the operating conditions for communication devices? For snowmobiles? For weapons? For fuel? Have you check the thermal rating of existing gear? Have you considered just how cold it would get on the Edge in the dark months of winter?
How do you suppose these scientists and their equipment operate during the summer and winter months? Are you suggesting they'd be any different?
Some of these long posts bore me. :(
I'm sorry. These people make such long posts and I find I can refute most of what they say. Cheer up old boy!
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Your estimates? Are you now saying that you are qualified to make such an estimation?
No. What would qualify me to make such an estimation? Something that isn't subjective would be nice.
Having planned a military operation of 10% of the size of that needed here would be an objective qualification.Is this the estimation where you have a lone soldier covering his territory riding a snowmobile over the world's roughest terrain in the world's coldest weather around during the months-long Antarctic night looking out six miles to the north for interlopers and stopping them? With only pilots coming out with rations? With equipment never intended for use in those conditions?
What do they need a snowmobile for? Are you suggesting that non-scientists can bypass the military's security so that they need to traverse the mainland in search of random people?
You suggested the snowmobile, not me. You suggested the search pattern and the coverage technique, not me. I do suggest that the Ice Guards would have to deal with the potential of unauthorized access to the entire Edge.Have you checked the operating conditions for communication devices? For snowmobiles? For weapons? For fuel? Have you check the thermal rating of existing gear? Have you considered just how cold it would get on the Edge in the dark months of winter?
How do you suppose these scientists and their equipment operate during the summer and winter months? Are you suggesting they'd be any different?
As far as I know, there is very little activity during the winter months, and almost all of it in sheltered areas. I find it quite implausible that anyone could patrol during the winter months.
You evade the questions, indeed almost all of them.
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Having planned a military operation of 10% of the size of that needed here would be an objective qualification.
The value of that is subjective. -_-
You suggested the snowmobile, not me. You suggested the search pattern and the coverage technique, not me. I do suggest that the Ice Guards would have to deal with the potential of unauthorized access to the entire Edge.
I believe I suggested the snowmobile in regards to some type of argument. I believe it to be unnecessary and ridiculous for anyone to make it passed their safeguards that would be in place to force the guards to use snowmobiles and wander the terrain in search of people.
As far as I know, there is very little activity during the winter months, and almost all of it in sheltered areas. I find it quite implausible that anyone could patrol during the winter months.
There are about 1000 scientists living in the Antarctic during the winter according to Wikipedia.
I find it implausible that they would need to patrol. I can't think of any reason that tourists would be able to circumvent the military's potential detection methods and reach an uncommon area of the continent.
Also, I suppose that the known continent would simply be a common section arrived at by use of their navigational methods. So, depending on their methods, they would always arrive at the same apparent areas, in accordance with RE cartography. This does pose some problems though in regards to mapping and travel for the FE.
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Having planned a military operation of 10% of the size of that needed here would be an objective qualification.
The value of that is subjective. -_-
It's objective.
Function Qualified(Experience with total expenditures) as Boolean;
LargestProjectSize=MaxOfList(Experiences,Size);
GuessAtSize = DoEstimate(); *RoE Only;
Return ((GuessAtSize * .1) < LargestProjectSize);
End Function;
You suggested the snowmobile, not me. You suggested the search pattern and the coverage technique, not me. I do suggest that the Ice Guards would have to deal with the potential of unauthorized access to the entire Edge.
I believe I suggested the snowmobile in regards to some type of argument. I believe it to be unnecessary and ridiculous for anyone to make it passed their safeguards that would be in place to force the guards to use snowmobiles and wander the terrain in search of people.
[/quote]Nice change. With this change, however, you'll now need to tell us how you'd have the entire Edge monitored to ensure that no unauthorized person gains access to the Edge and returns with documentation that would foil the conspiracy.
As far as I know, there is very little activity during the winter months, and almost all of it in sheltered areas. I find it quite implausible that anyone could patrol during the winter months.
There are about 1000 scientists living in the Antarctic during the winter according to Wikipedia.
I find it implausible that they would need to patrol. I can't think of any reason that tourists would be able to circumvent the military's potential detection methods and reach an uncommon area of the continent.
Also, I suppose that the known continent would simply be a common section arrived at by use of their navigational methods. So, depending on their methods, they would always arrive at the same apparent areas, in accordance with RE cartography. This does pose some problems though in regards to mapping and travel for the FE.
[/quote]You seem to be making a number of assumptions. Are you assuming that tourists would be the only interlopers? Are you assuming that compasses don't work near the Edge in FE? Are you assuming that the Edge can't be documented from the air or from any point along the Edge?
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We have numerous observations that suggest the shape of the Earth that long precede this.
Divito, you are so tiresome. At what point does the weight of evidence in any given theory constitute "proof" rather than a "suggestion".
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It's objective.
Function Qualified(Experience with total expenditures) as Boolean;
LargestProjectSize=MaxOfList(Experiences,Size);
GuessAtSize = DoEstimate(); *RoE Only;
Return ((GuessAtSize * .1) < LargestProjectSize);
End Function;
Function Qualified(subjective value) as Boolean;
Nice change. With this change, however, you'll now need to tell us how you'd have the entire Edge monitored to ensure that no unauthorized person gains access to the Edge and returns with documentation that would foil the conspiracy.
Applications of radar perhaps, or other suitable technology. And they'd only need to guard the expanse of the Ice Wall that isn't considered the Antarctic.
You seem to be making a number of assumptions. Are you assuming that tourists would be the only interlopers? Are you assuming that compasses don't work near the Edge in FE? Are you assuming that the Edge can't be documented from the air or from any point along the Edge?
That a number of scientists, cruises and tourists can make trips, and pass-overs around common areas known as Antarctica, it's likely that it really is a continent on a spherical Earth, or that their navigational methods simply interact with some aspect of the Earth to allow for such an occurrence. Perhaps the "South Pole" that is experienced is located at that portion of the Ice Wall. The premise for this would have to be investigated and speculated upon though. Other sections of the Ice Wall would then be reachable through alternative methods.
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We have numerous observations that suggest the shape of the Earth that long precede this.
Divito, you are so tiresome. At what point does the weight of evidence in any given theory constitute "proof" rather than a "suggestion".
Everything NASA has done constitutes as proof that support those initial observations and experiments of Eratosthenes, Posidonius, and Ptolemy.
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Everything NASA has done constitutes as proof that support those initial observations and experiments of Eratosthenes, Posidonius, and Ptolemy.
True. But does that mean that prior to 1958, there was no "proof" that the world was round, and the the evidence only constituted a "suggestion" that the Earth was round?
Wait a minute. NASA are part of the conspiracy!!! You almost had me there.
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True. But does that mean that prior to 1958, there was no "proof" that the world was round, and the the evidence only constituted a "suggestion" that the Earth was round?
Wait a minute. NASA are part of the conspiracy!!! You almost had me there.
Yes. Well, not exactly 1958, but prior to space exploration and the subsequent evidence generated by NASA, as I said, the observations suggested the shape of the Earth. And yes, in FET, NASA is a part of the conspiracy.
My whole argument in this thread has been hypothetical as I'm not a believer in the FET. I'm just trying to show that it isn't as outlandish as people assume. But I don't seem to be doing such a good job. :(
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Having planned a military operation of 10% of the size of that needed here would be an objective qualification.
The value of that is subjective. -_-
It's objective.
Function Qualified(Experience with total expenditures) as Boolean;
LargestProjectSize=MaxOfList(Experiences,Size);
GuessAtSize = DoEstimate(); *RoE Only;
Return ((GuessAtSize * .1) < LargestProjectSize);
End Function;
What language is that? Also, is it common in that language to not declare variables?
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Just for the record-- Ockham's Razor, or Occam's razor (i've seen both spellings) is a logical tool that says "the simplest solution is usually the correct one." It is hard to use definitively, of course, but in rhetorical and logical debates, it can be used quite effectively to slash the strings holding up conspiracy theories, fervant religious arguments, and the speeches of many modern politicians.
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What language is that? Also, is it common in that language to not declare variables?
It's VBA. You do not need to declare them. VBA will create it on the fly with the assigned value.
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Basic? *Puke*
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It's objective.
Function Qualified(Experience with total expenditures) as Boolean;
LargestProjectSize=MaxOfList(Experiences,Size);
GuessAtSize = DoEstimate(); *RoE Only;
Return ((GuessAtSize * .1) < LargestProjectSize);
End Function;
Function Qualified(subjective value) as Boolean;
Wrong. You can enter the total expenses as recorded in the accounting system for each project that you planned. Cold, hard numbers. Objective.Nice change. With this change, however, you'll now need to tell us how you'd have the entire Edge monitored to ensure that no unauthorized person gains access to the Edge and returns with documentation that would foil the conspiracy.
Applications of radar perhaps, or other suitable technology. And they'd only need to guard the expanse of the Ice Wall that isn't considered the Antarctic.
I see. Now you're changing to having this technology developed, operational, maintained, and conditioned to the climate. I imagine that your estimate now includes maintaining and fueling a fleets of AWACS now. Let's see your new calculations please. How many flights? How many AWACs? How many airfields? How much fuel? How will the fuel and spare parts be delivered? Your change still obligates you to a great number of resources.You seem to be making a number of assumptions. Are you assuming that tourists would be the only interlopers? Are you assuming that compasses don't work near the Edge in FE? Are you assuming that the Edge can't be documented from the air or from any point along the Edge?
That a number of scientists, cruises and tourists can make trips, and pass-overs around common areas known as Antarctica, it's likely that it really is a continent on a spherical Earth, or that their navigational methods simply interact with some aspect of the Earth to allow for such an occurrence. Perhaps the "South Pole" that is experienced is located at that portion of the Ice Wall. The premise for this would have to be investigated and speculated upon though. Other sections of the Ice Wall would then be reachable through alternative methods.
I notice that you avoid answering the questions, so I'll just repeat them. Are you assuming that tourists would be the only interlopers? Are you assuming that compasses don't work near the Edge in FE? Are you assuming that the Edge can't be documented from the air or from any point along the Edge?
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Wrong. You can enter the total expenses as recorded in the accounting system for each project that you planned. Cold, hard numbers. Objective.
And the value of these "expenses" in relation to being qualified is subjective. Not sure what you don't get about that.
I see. Now you're changing to having this technology developed, operational, maintained, and conditioned to the climate.
Indoors?
I imagine that your estimate now includes maintaining and fueling a fleets of AWACS now. Let's see your new calculations please. How many flights? How many AWACs? How many airfields? How much fuel? How will the fuel and spare parts be delivered? Your change still obligates you to a great number of resources.
Nope. Don't need AWACs. Why would they choose something more complicated and inconvenient?
I notice that you avoid answering the questions, so I'll just repeat them. Are you assuming that tourists would be the only interlopers? Are you assuming that compasses don't work near the Edge in FE? Are you assuming that the Edge can't be documented from the air or from any point along the Edge?
Tourists and scientists are the only people that would be there. Unless you think people can accidentally venture to Antarctica without noticing.
As for the edge, it depends. Clearly, their method of navigation works to reach a common area. As for the rest of the supposed Ice Wall, I'm not sure what a compass would indicate.
Why wouldn't you be able to document the edge?
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What language is that? Also, is it common in that language to not declare variables?
It's VBA. You do not need to declare them. VBA will create it on the fly with the assigned value.
VBA will know what type of value an argument in a function needs to be?
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VBA will know what type of value an argument in a function needs to be?
It'll be created as a Variant.
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Intriguing...I'm guessing that's a type that can be anything? I'm hating VBA so far =/
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Intriguing...I'm guessing that's a type that can be anything? I'm hating VBA so far =/
Yup. A Variant can hold any type of data, numeric, text, doubles, objects, etc.
Although, testing against the data type isn't exactly efficient, so the flexibility comes at a price. It's basically better to simply declare them.
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Wrong. You can enter the total expenses as recorded in the accounting system for each project that you planned. Cold, hard numbers. Objective.
And the value of these "expenses" in relation to being qualified is subjective. Not sure what you don't get about that.
No the value is objective. It's a number that comes from a computer system that tracked the projects you've planned. That's straight forward. There is no debate how much a project cost when standard accounting rules are applied.I see. Now you're changing to having this technology developed, operational, maintained, and conditioned to the climate.
Indoors?
No the technology isn't deployed indoors. The buildings to house the equipment is outdoors. The dishes and antennae are outdoors.I imagine that your estimate now includes maintaining and fueling a fleets of AWACS now. Let's see your new calculations please. How many flights? How many AWACs? How many airfields? How much fuel? How will the fuel and spare parts be delivered? Your change still obligates you to a great number of resources.
Nope. Don't need AWACs. Why would they choose something more complicated and inconvenient?
Wow! There's just no end to your military expertise, is there? Please tell us how you'd detect low-flying aircraft in the roughed terrain of the Edge without AWACs or patrols. You must know of a wonderful new technology.I notice that you avoid answering the questions, so I'll just repeat them. Are you assuming that tourists would be the only interlopers? Are you assuming that compasses don't work near the Edge in FE? Are you assuming that the Edge can't be documented from the air or from any point along the Edge?
Tourists and scientists are the only people that would be there. Unless you think people can accidentally venture to Antarctica without noticing.
As for the edge, it depends. Clearly, their method of navigation works to reach a common area. As for the rest of the supposed Ice Wall, I'm not sure what a compass would indicate.
Why wouldn't you be able to document the edge?
I see. You're going to assume that no one mounts an expedition to expose the conspiracy except for the tourists and scientists there. That's really asinine.
According to FE, the magnetic lines run over the Edge in straight lines from the North Magnetic Pole, so following a compass south will lead one to the Edge with little need for sophisticated navigational equipment.
That my point. You have to prevent anyone from providing photos of the Edge. It's a daunting task for the Ice Guard.
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No the value is objective. It's a number that comes from a computer system that tracked the projects you've planned. That's straight forward. There is no debate how much a project cost when standard accounting rules are applied.
Sigh. Yes, mathematical values are objective. The significance of those mathematical values in the opinion of being qualified is subjective.
No the technology isn't deployed indoors. The buildings to house the equipment is outdoors. The dishes and antennae are outdoors.
Yes, the dishes and antennae would be outside the facility. The rest of the equipment would be indoors. If you think the guards would have trouble with their equipment, then those scientists must have plenty of trouble with theirs.
Wow! There's just no end to your military expertise, is there? Please tell us how you'd detect low-flying aircraft in the roughed terrain of the Edge without AWACs or patrols. You must know of a wonderful new technology.
Why do you keep assuming that people would materialize behind the soldiers? The detection methods would be transmitted out over the oceans. I'm sure I don't need to start pasting stuff about radar for you.
I see. You're going to assume that no one mounts an expedition to expose the conspiracy except for the tourists and scientists there. That's really asinine.
You think the tourists and scientists are on expeditions to expose the conspiracy? Nice.
Aha, how many people do you think believe in a flat Earth? How many of those have the means and will to make such a trip to expose the supposed conspiracy?
According to FE, the magnetic lines run over the Edge in straight lines from the North Magnetic Pole, so following a compass south will lead one to the Edge with little need for sophisticated navigational equipment.
Obviously given the information available, there is a common expanse. This either means the Earth is a sphere, or the FET is incorrect regarding the South Magnetic Pole.
That my point. You have to prevent anyone from providing photos of the Edge. It's a daunting task for the Ice Guard.
Several Antarctic photos exist. Do you think the edge would look fundamentally different from the pictures already available? Would there be signs perhaps? Or maybe the ice is like, a hot pink color.
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Actually, it would need to provide a rather sheer wall, since its been claimed the ice wall "cannot be scaled." It would also need to be massive enough to contain the "atmolayer." The pictures you refference (and I see none of them) probably do not exhibit these necessary properties.
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No the value is objective. It's a number that comes from a computer system that tracked the projects you've planned. That's straight forward. There is no debate how much a project cost when standard accounting rules are applied.
Sigh. Yes, mathematical values are objective. The significance of those mathematical values in the opinion of being qualified is subjective.You asked me my opinion as to what objective measures would qualify you to plan such an operation. If you didn't want my opinion you shouldn't have asked for it. Now answer the question, are you qualified based on that opinion?
No the technology isn't deployed indoors. The buildings to house the equipment is outdoors. The dishes and antennae are outdoors.
Yes, the dishes and antennae would be outside the facility. The rest of the equipment would be indoors. If you think the guards would have trouble with their equipment, then those scientists must have plenty of trouble with theirs.
I don't know where you get the scientists from. One interloper with a camera could break the conspiracy. What equipment would the interloper need that would be so remarkable or implausible?
Wow! There's just no end to your military expertise, is there? Please tell us how you'd detect low-flying aircraft in the roughed terrain of the Edge without AWACs or patrols. You must know of a wonderful new technology.
Why do you keep assuming that people would materialize behind the soldiers? The detection methods would be transmitted out over the oceans. I'm sure I don't need to start pasting stuff about radar for you.
Yet another change. It's amazing to me how often you have change your plan. First, it was men looking out to sea. Second it was men on snowmobiles looking out to sea. Now it's RADAR facilities looking out to sea. Alright, tell us the cost of building, concealing, manning, and maintaining these facilities. Tell us how you would deal with an impostor making by the RADAR grid with a scientific team and then making a break for the Edge.
I see. You're going to assume that no one mounts an expedition to expose the conspiracy except for the tourists and scientists there. That's really asinine.
You think the tourists and scientists are on expeditions to expose the conspiracy? Nice.
Aha, how many people do you think believe in a flat Earth? How many of those have the means and will to make such a trip to expose the supposed conspiracy?
[I think that you had better deal with the contingency. It would only take one FEer or one skeptic to mount an expedition.According to FE, the magnetic lines run over the Edge in straight lines from the North Magnetic Pole, so following a compass south will lead one to the Edge with little need for sophisticated navigational equipment.
Obviously given the information available, there is a common expanse. This either means the Earth is a sphere, or the FET is incorrect regarding the South Magnetic Pole.
I disagree with your premise. It is not obvious that there is a common expanse. It could be mountainous, for example.That my point. You have to prevent anyone from providing photos of the Edge. It's a daunting task for the Ice Guard.
Several Antarctic photos exist. Do you think the edge would look fundamentally different from the pictures already available? Would there be signs perhaps? Or maybe the ice is like, a hot pink color.
You're just being silly. The Edge would be different than any place ever seen on Earth. The magnetic field lines would be vertical. the view of the stars over the Edge would be different. The air pressure gradients would be phenomenal. All of which would be easily documented.
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You asked me my opinion as to what objective measures would qualify you to plan such an operation. If you didn't want my opinion you shouldn't have asked for it. Now answer the question, are you qualified based on that opinion?
I didn't want your opinion, because your opinion would be subjective. I asked you to answer it because I was hoping you'd be smart enough to realize that.
Based on your opinion of qualification for this idea, of course not.
I don't know where you get the scientists from. One interloper with a camera could break the conspiracy. What equipment would the interloper need that would be so remarkable or implausible?
Scientists, you know, the ones that do research in Antarctica. If the military is going to have trouble with all this terrain and using their equipment in that climate, scientists would face the same problems.
Wait, what do you think they would be taking a picture of exactly? I hope you're not going off the TomB Ice Wall theories.
Yet another change. It's amazing to me how often you have change your plan. First, it was men looking out to sea. Second it was men on snowmobiles looking out to sea. Now it's RADAR facilities looking out to sea. Alright, tell us the cost of building, concealing, manning, and maintaining these facilities. Tell us how you would deal with an impostor making by the RADAR grid with a scientific team and then making a break for the Edge.
Very amazing apparently.
Ahaha, men looking out to sea. Where did I say the guards just looked out to the sea? Do you imagine them on lawn chairs or something? Ahaha. And where did I say they were on snowmobiles looking out to sea? I mentioned them possibly using snowmobiles to get around. That was about it. Another classic TomG expansion into the imagined.
I do not know the cost of all that. And why would I need to tell you? Does attaching a number change the speculation? No.
Would these impostors somehow have stealth fighters or something?
I think that you had better deal with the contingency. It would only take one FEer or one skeptic to mount an expedition.
Then we'll know in the future how everything turns out. I won't hold my breath.
I disagree with your premise. It is not obvious that there is a common expanse. It could be mountainous, for example.
Really? That's weird. All those cruises and research stations..I wonder if any of them are reporting not being able to find their way the following year.
You're just being silly. The Edge would be different than any place ever seen on Earth. The magnetic field lines would be vertical. the view of the stars over the Edge would be different. The air pressure gradients would be phenomenal. All of which would be easily documented.
The edge, yes. Do you have some kind of number on how long the ice is from the start of the wall to the edge?
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Actually, it would need to provide a rather sheer wall, since its been claimed the ice wall "cannot be scaled." It would also need to be massive enough to contain the "atmolayer." The pictures you refference (and I see none of them) probably do not exhibit these necessary properties.
The 150 foot Ice Wall was discovered by Sir James Clark Ross, a polar explorer who was among the first to venture to Antarctica in an attempt to determine the position of the South Magnetic Pole. Upon confronting the massive vertical front of of ice he famously remarked
"It was ... an obstruction of such character as to leave no doubt in my mind as to our future proceedings, for we might as well sail through the cliffs of Dover as to penetrate such a mass.
It would be impossible to conceive a more solid-looking mass of ice; not the smallest appearance of any rent or fissure could we discover throughout its whole extent, and the intensely bright sky beyond it but too plainly indicated the great distance to which it reached southward."
Beyond the 150 foot Ice Wall is anyone's guess. How far the ice extends; how it terminates; and what exists beyond it, are questions to which no present human experience can reply. All we at present know is, that snow and hail, howling winds, and indescribable storms and hurricanes prevail; and that in every direction "human ingress is barred by unsealed escarpments of perpetual ice," extending farther than eye or telescope can penetrate, and becoming lost in gloom and darkness. Some hold that the tundra of ice and snow stretches forever eternally.
Edge of the world: http://uwamrc.ssec.wisc.edu/images/gallery/B15Aedge.jpg
Temperatures approach absolute zero the further one explores outwards. Exploration in this type of pitch black freezing environment is impossible for any man or machine. We live on a vast plane with an unknown diameter and an unknown depth. Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham held that knowing the true dimensions of the Earth is something which will be forever be unknowable by man.
The Flat Earth does not necessary need to be physically infinite in order to contain the atmosphere - just very big. Often we might hear "infinite earth" from Flat Earth proponents as an analogy for what exists past the ice wall; a stretch of land incomprehensible by human standards.
In order for barometric pressure to rise and fall, an element of heat must be present. Heat creates pressure. A lack of heat results in a drop in pressure. These two elements are tightly correlated in modern physics.
In our local area the heat of the day comes from the sun, moving and swashing around wind currents from areas of low pressures to areas of high pressures with its heat. The coldness of the Antarctic tundra keeps the pressure low. Beyond the known world, where the rays of the sun do not reach, the tundra of ice and snow lays in perpetual darkness. If one could move away from the Ice Wall into the uncharted tundra the surrounding temperatures would drop lower and lower until it nears absolute zero. Defining the exact length of the gradient would take some looking into, but at a significant distance past the edge of the Ice Wall temperatures will drop to a point where barometric pressure nears the zero mark. At this point, whether it be millions or hundreds of millions of miles from the edge of Ice Wall, the world can end without the atmosphere leaking into space.
The atmosphere exists as a lip on the surface of the earth, held in by vast gradients of declining pressure.
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Is the irony in claiming that any exploration beyond the wall is impossible due to imagined darkness, and then linking to an aerial image of the icewall obviously taken by a helicopter during the day, intentional, or what?
Some sections of the Antarctic coast are tall and sheer. Others are not.
(http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/7069/antarcticac08am5.jpg)
Is there any reason to believe your bubble hypothesis for the atmosphere? Is there any reason to believe that those who claim to have been to the South pole were lying, and that further explorations there are the result of a massive conspiracy? Is there any reason to believe that the sizes and shapes of bodies in the Southern hemisphere necessary to contain such a theory are accurate?
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well all i have to say is that soon theres going to be alot of rich people in on this "conspiracy" because virgin galactic is launching suborbital flights for the paying public in the near future for the small price of $200,000 a person. virgingalactic.com. i'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but i also find it boring to read these posts that drone on and on. i just want to get this debate done and over with. git-r-done.
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well all i have to say is that soon theres going to be alot of rich people in on this "conspiracy" because virgin galactic is launching suborbital flights for the paying public in the near future for the small price of $200,000 a person. virgingalactic.com. i'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but i also find it boring to read these posts that drone on and on. i just want to get this debate done and over with. git-r-done.
Well, good luck with that! ::)
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Is the irony in claiming that any exploration beyond the wall is impossible due to imagined darkness, and then linking to an aerial image of the icewall obviously taken by a helicopter during the day, intentional, or what?
The spotlight of the sun ends about 1,600 miles inland of the Ice Wall. We cannot see the gloom and darkness of the pitch black freezing tundra in the picture I've provided because the observer is not far enough inland.
Some sections of the Antarctic coast are tall and sheer. Others are not.
The Ice Wall is a natural formation. We an see parts of it in your image. It's a thick mass of floating ice that is attached to land, formed from and fed by tongues of glaciers extending outward from deep within the uncharted tundra into sheltered waters. Where there are no strong currents, the ice becomes partly grounded on the sea bottom and attaches itself to rocks and islands. The wall is pushed forward into the sea by glacial pressure until its forward growth is terminated.
The entire coast of the Ice Wall is not one single complete wall, however. There are actually a series of thousand mile long walls, divided by Transantarctic Mountain Ranges up to 11,500 feet high. The weight of The Ice Walls are so enormous that they have literally pressed the land two thirds of a mile (one kilometer) into the earth. Under the massive forces of their own weight, the ice walls deform and drag themselves outward. Very large glaciers called ice streams flow through them continually, transporting ice from deep inland out to the sea.
well all i have to say is that soon theres going to be alot of rich people in on this "conspiracy" because virgin galactic is launching suborbital flights for the paying public in the near future for the small price of $200,000 a person. virgingalactic.com. i'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but i also find it boring to read these posts that drone on and on. i just want to get this debate done and over with. git-r-done.
I don't see how ascending into the air and observing an apparently rounded horizon would prove a Round Earth. Remember, the horizon of a Flat Earth would also appear rounded; elliptical. When we move outside of the atmosphere of the Flat Earth, to the foot of space, we are looking down at a circle.
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well all i have to say is that soon theres going to be alot of rich people in on this "conspiracy" because virgin galactic is launching suborbital flights for the paying public in the near future for the small price of $200,000 a person.
$200,000 for 2 1/2 hrs! Jesus, what a ripoff!
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Is there any reason to believe your bubble hypothesis for the atmosphere?
Look at any High School physics book to see that heat and pressure have a correlation to each other.
Is there any reason to believe that those who claim to have been to the South pole were lying, and that further explorations there are the result of a massive conspiracy?
The South Pole in FE is a circular area beyond the Ice Wall where the magnetic field lines are vertical. Polar explorers occasionally travel to this area, plant a flag somewhere along the tundra, and leave back towards the sun. Remember, on a Round Earth the only way to travel South from the South Pole is to go North.
Is there any reason to believe that the sizes and shapes of bodies in the Southern hemisphere necessary to contain such a theory are accurate?
Yes. We have Southern Hemisphere source, Thomas Winship of South Africa, who confirms that the lines of latitude in the Southern Hemisphere are longer than the equator. He publishes his findings in a book called Zetetic Cosmogony (http://books.google.com/books?id=GzkKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA#PPP9,M1). It is available online at Google Books.
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Another book written by a Bible literalist out to prove the truthfulness of the Bible with his fake evidence (his motive is made clear within the first few pages).
Let's assume that he's being entirely honest about the lengths of latitude lines. How did he measure them? The fact is, we have modern methods that would be much, much more accurate than anything available at the time. You fail in making your point, Tom. ::)
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Exploration in this type of pitch black freezing environment is impossible for any man or machine. (...) Dr. Samuel Birley Rowbotham held that knowing the true dimensions of the Earth is something which will be forever be unknowable by man.
Well, maybe one day in distant future...
(http://img354.imageshack.us/img354/5913/iwcb7.th.jpg) (http://img354.imageshack.us/my.php?image=iwcb7.jpg)
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Is the irony in claiming that any exploration beyond the wall is impossible due to imagined darkness, and then linking to an aerial image of the icewall obviously taken by a helicopter during the day, intentional, or what?
The spotlight of the sun ends about 1,600 miles inland of the Ice Wall. We cannot see the gloom and darkness of the pitch black freezing tundra in the picture I've provided because the observer is not far enough inland.
Some sections of the Antarctic coast are tall and sheer. Others are not.
The Ice Wall is a natural formation. We an see parts of it in your image. It's a thick mass of floating ice that is attached to land, formed from and fed by tongues of glaciers extending outward from deep within the uncharted tundra into sheltered waters. Where there are no strong currents, the ice becomes partly grounded on the sea bottom and attaches itself to rocks and islands. The wall is pushed forward into the sea by glacial pressure until its forward growth is terminated.
The entire coast of the Ice Wall is not one single complete wall, however. There are actually a series of thousand mile long walls, divided by Transantarctic Mountain Ranges up to 11,500 feet high. The weight of The Ice Walls are so enormous that they have literally pressed the land two thirds of a mile (one kilometer) into the earth. Under the massive forces of their own weight, the ice walls deform and drag themselves outward. Very large glaciers called ice streams flow through them continually, transporting ice from deep inland out to the sea.
well all i have to say is that soon theres going to be alot of rich people in on this "conspiracy" because virgin galactic is launching suborbital flights for the paying public in the near future for the small price of $200,000 a person. virgingalactic.com. i'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but i also find it boring to read these posts that drone on and on. i just want to get this debate done and over with. git-r-done.
I don't see how ascending into the air and observing an apparently rounded horizon would prove a Round Earth. Remember, the horizon of a Flat Earth would also appear rounded; elliptical. When we move outside of the atmosphere of the Flat Earth, to the foot of space, we are looking down at a circle.
Tom, I have asked this question over and over. How is the Sun the ONLY natural spotlight? In the RE model, the Sun is a massive fusion reaction. We have created fusion-fission explosives, so we know this can work. All natural light sources (and if you want to be truthful all light sources) emit light in all directions over the luminous surface. It is not logical to say "Well, the Sun has to be a spotlight because that's the only way it would work." because we need proof of some kind that spotlights can even occur in nature.
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Tom ruined our discussion. I'm very disappointed.
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Tom ruined our discussion. I'm very disappointed.
Me too. Much as I am pleased about the great TB finally contributing to my thread, it has been dragged off topic. Who's in on the conspiracy, Tom?
Look at any High School physics book to see that heat and pressure have a correlation to each other.
Look at any High School physics book, gumshoe, and it'll tell you that areas of high pressure will try to move to areas of low pressure, in the absence of gravitational effects. What you've described would cause an instantaneous explosive decompression of the Earth's atmosphere!
Therefore, authors of High School physics books are in on the conspiracy!
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well all i have to say is that soon theres going to be alot of rich people in on this "conspiracy" because virgin galactic is launching suborbital flights for the paying public in the near future for the small price of $200,000 a person.
$200,000 for 2 1/2 hrs! Jesus, what a ripoff!
But you get to play in other people's puke while you are up there! Doesn't that sound fun?
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I thought you couldn't actually go up there, per FE, at least...
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I thought you couldn't actually go up there, per FE, at least...
Nowhere does it say that you cannot leave the Earth's atmosphere in FE. You just cannot orbit the FE, which is why man-made satellites can't exist.
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Oh, ok. Thanks.
Tom, theres some serious issues with your "quasi-infinite plane of ice" idea. First off, per that, the water cycle is officially worthless as there is now an unlimited amount of water locked up in this ice.
More importantly, your idea regarding how the atmosphere stays in is flawed. Since air is a fluid, it will naturally shape itself to fill any container. Its a fundamental nature of fluids. if the earth were accelerating upwards, what would happen is that the air would be pushed down and flattened (you can simulate this with any visible fluid and an accelerating flat surface--a small amount of water, for example, held in a drop by its surface tension, will flatten and spread across the surface of a an object). Since air has no surface tension, this would be observed very quickly. Thus, since the wall is only 150 meters high, per you, all air above 150 meters would BECOME UNBREATHEABLE because it would be so thin and rapidly moving. Now, Mr. Bishop, I'm writing this post from 150 meters above sea level, and i've climbed mountains in excess of 1500 meters (Mount Washington, White Mountains, NH--1886 meters), and i'm breathing just fine. There are no winds flattening the landscape as the fluid air rushes to fill the empty space around it, forced to do so by acceleration and barometric differences.
So.... how does that work?
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I don't see how ascending into the air and observing an apparently rounded horizon would prove a Round Earth. Remember, the horizon of a Flat Earth would also appear rounded; elliptical. When we move outside of the atmosphere of the Flat Earth, to the foot of space, we are looking down at a circle.
well, i guess there really is no way to convince FEer's of a round earth. a flat earth that appears round in space? beats me. if this was true than why wouldnt they just go ahead with space programs?
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well, i guess there really is no way to convince FEer's of a round earth. a flat earth that appears round in space? beats me. if this was true than why wouldnt they just go ahead with space programs?
Because sustained space flight is not possible.
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I don't see how ascending into the air and observing an apparently rounded horizon would prove a Round Earth. Remember, the horizon of a Flat Earth would also appear rounded; elliptical. When we move outside of the atmosphere of the Flat Earth, to the foot of space, we are looking down at a circle.
well, i guess there really is no way to convince FEer's of a round earth. a flat earth that appears round in space? beats me. if this was true than why wouldnt they just go ahead with space programs?
The space programs present too much evidence for FEer to ignore. The images show that Australia is not elongated as their model predicts. The curvature of the Earth seen in the photographs doesn't align with their model. The position of the Moon and the Sun, the Sun's illumination, and the orbits of the spacecrafts and satellites all demonstrate that the Earth is round.
Really, "the Earth is round in the photographs because the Earth is cylinder" fails miserably with just a casual inspection. Continents, over the curvature of the Earth, the horizon, aren't visible, for example. The terminator often doesn't match FE predictions. It's just all lots of little explanations, picture by picture, failing to explain the next bit of evidence until it's in hand.
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I don't see how ascending into the air and observing an apparently rounded horizon would prove a Round Earth. Remember, the horizon of a Flat Earth would also appear rounded; elliptical. When we move outside of the atmosphere of the Flat Earth, to the foot of space, we are looking down at a circle.
well, i guess there really is no way to convince FEer's of a round earth. a flat earth that appears round in space? beats me. if this was true than why wouldnt they just go ahead with space programs?
The space programs present too much evidence for FEer to ignore. The images show that Australia is not elongated as their model predicts. The curvature of the Earth seen in the photographs doesn't align with their model. The position of the Moon and the Sun, the Sun's illumination, and the orbits of the spacecrafts and satellites all demonstrate that the Earth is round.
Really, "the Earth is round in the photographs because the Earth is cylinder" fails miserably with just a casual inspection. Continents, over the curvature of the Earth, the horizon, aren't visible, for example. The terminator often doesn't match FE predictions. It's just all lots of little explanations, picture by picture, failing to explain the next bit of evidence until it's in hand.
Conspiracy
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if sustained space flight isn't possible than what is it i get when i pay $200 g's for a space flight?
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if sustained space flight isn't possible than what is it i get when i pay $200 g's for a space flight?
A $200,000.00 effects show.
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i dont think that $200000(or any amount of money) is enough to make an "effects show" that can simulate weightlessness continously for 6 minutes without going into space.
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i dont think that $200000(or any amount of money) is enough to make an "effects show" that can simulate weightlessness continously for 6 minutes without going into space.
An airplane on a parabolic flight can provide its occupants with weightless (or the "weight" of the Moon or the Mars). Ron Howard's Apollo 13 used NASA's "Vomit Comet" to film some sequences.
That said, I fully support your point that special effects by the conspiracy is an outlandish suggestion.
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if sustained space flight isn't possible than what is it i get when i pay $200 g's for a space flight?
You don't get into orbit. You get to spend a few terrifying minutes falling to earth from 100 km up.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_of_space. frankly,i dont think you need to be in orbit to see the curvature of the earth.
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if sustained space flight isn't possible than what is it i get when i pay $200 g's for a space flight?
That was your question. You don't get into orbit.
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yes what you quoted was my question, but "you dont get into orbit" doesnt answer it, i must be missing something. i asked for what you do get, not what you dont. you can still go into space and not be in orbit, its called suborbital spaceflight.
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You get to spend a few terrifying minutes falling to earth from 100 km up.
Perhaps you also missed the 'sustained' part.
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umm...no, i think that 6 minutes in suborbital flight is long enough to be considered sustained spaceflight. not to mention that it wouldn't take 6 minutes to fall 100km to earth going at whatever the terminal velocity of the spacecraft is.
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umm...no, i think that 6 minutes in suborbital flight is long enough to be considered sustained spaceflight.
Umm...no, I don't think that falling back to earth is sustaining flight.
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They stay up at a certain altitude for six minutes. They aren't falling...
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They stay up at a certain altitude for six minutes. They aren't falling...
No, it's a parabolic flight path. The weightlessness comes from falling back to earth after reaching the highest point of the flight.
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They stay up at a certain altitude for six minutes. They aren't falling...
No, it's a parabolic flight path. The weightlessness comes from falling back to earth after reaching the highest point of the flight.
That's imprecise. They're falling back to Earth throughout the flight (Earth's gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_gravity) never disappears entirely for them.). Weightlessness, or rather microgravity, starts once the engines stop. The microgravity comes from being in free-fall.
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Isn't the rate of falling at that stage so minute that the altitude is, for all navigational purposes, the same?
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Isn't the rate of falling at that stage so minute that the altitude is, for all navigational purposes, the same?
While I'm not sure that I understand your question, please allow me to try to answer.
No. The Moon, for example, falls 240,000 miles every 15 days towards Earth. A satellite in geosynchronous orbit falls 22,000 miles every 6 hours.
Again, it's the free-fall, not the distance from Earth that causes the microgravity. Yes, there are distances large enough so that the Earth's effect is negligible, but except for some possible oddities with Apollo, manned flight hasn't experienced those distances.
I apologize if i misunderstood your question.
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Ok, cool. That was pretty much my question.
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i see why so many have given up debating with FE'ers! wow, at least you get what im trying to say Gulliver. i think lorcan would like to get in on this thread.
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plus the issue is that you can't fall at the necessary speed to simulate weightlessness for 6 continous minutes without going into space.
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plus the issue is that you can't fall at the necessary speed to simulate weightlessness for 6 continous minutes without going into space.
Who said you can't go into space?
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That's imprecise. They're falling back to Earth throughout the flight (Earth's gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_gravity) never disappears entirely for them.). Weightlessness, or rather microgravity, starts once the engines stop. The microgravity comes from being in free-fall.
How are they gaining any altitude if they are always falling back to earth? That flight would really suck.
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That's imprecise. They're falling back to Earth throughout the flight (Earth's gravity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_gravity) never disappears entirely for them.). Weightlessness, or rather microgravity, starts once the engines stop. The microgravity comes from being in free-fall.
How are they gaining any altitude if they are always falling back to earth? That flight would really suck.
Their engines.
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o.k. i guess before we go any farther into this and split any more hairs, i should ask what the difference between spaceflight and sustained spaceflight is?
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Their engines.
But you said they were constantly falling back to Earth. That doesn't sound like much of a flight to me. Especially for $200,000.
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o.k. i guess before we go any farther into this and split any more hairs, i should ask what the difference between spaceflight and sustained spaceflight is?
You can fly into space in the FE, you just can't stay there, hence, the 'sustained' part.
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Their engines.
But you said they were constantly falling back to Earth. That doesn't sound like much of a flight to me. Especially for $200,000.
Sounds to me like a fine flight.
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Never getting off the ground sounds like a sorry excuse for a flight.
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Never getting off the ground sounds like a sorry excuse for a flight.
Who said you'd never get off the ground?
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They're falling back to Earth throughout the flight
You did.
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They're falling back to Earth throughout the flight
You did.
Nope.
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Then please explain yourself.
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Then please explain yourself.
I believe that you should first review that a rocket may be both falling toward the Earth (accelerated by Earth's gravity) and accelerated upwards by its engines--at the same time.
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Ahh, isn't that cute? The word games come out again! Perhaps you should add that RE tactic to the Primer, as you sure use it a lot. That and the one where you apply arguement A to situation B. That never gets old.
Someone: That is how 'A' works.
TomG: That is wrong, as 'B' works like this...
Someone: Who said anything about 'B'?
TomG: Quit playing word games!
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Ahh, isn't that cute? The word games come out again! Perhaps you should add that RE tactic to the Primer, as you sure use it a lot. That and the one where you apply arguement A to situation B. That never gets old.
Someone: That is how 'A' works.
TomG: That is wrong, as 'B' works like this...
Someone: Who said anything about 'B'?
TomG: Quit playing word games!
You seem particularly confused tonight. Good luck.
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I'm not confused at all. I particularly enjoy your evasion technique. Add that to the Primer as well.
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I'm not confused at all. I particularly enjoy your evasion technique. Add that to the Primer as well.
Sour grapes for you? Too bad!
I've answered your questions. I've not evaded. I've pointed out how your answer was imprecise. I didn't say anything about word games; you did. Your "dialog" has the wrong person then calling "word games". You couldn't even spell correctly. You haven't refuted a single answer. nathan and FM both have thanked me for the answers.
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I've answered your questions. I've not evaded.
I said nothing about it being in this thread.
I've pointed out how your answer was imprecise. I didn't say anything about word games; you did.
Yes, I sure did.
Your "dialog" has the wrong person then calling "word games".
No, the correct person is saying it. Again, I said nothing about it being in this thread.
nathan and FM both have thanked me for the answers.
Wow. Like an actual "Thank you"? That is so awesome.
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I've answered your questions. I've not evaded.
I said nothing about it being in this thread.
I've pointed out how your answer was imprecise. I didn't say anything about word games; you did.
Yes, I sure did.
Your "dialog" has the wrong person then calling "word games".
No, the correct person is saying it. Again, I said nothing about it being in this thread.
nathan and FM both have thanked me for the answers.
Wow. Like an actual "Thank you"? That is so awesome.
So you so confused you can't post in the right thread. We're so sad for you.
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Clearly The Engineer and Gulliver are both part of the Conspiracy, as agents instructed to hijack any "sensible" discussion and to take threads off topic.
How much are they being paid?
Are they really this serious in real life?
Are they, in fact, the same person?
I also believe that Tom Bishop must be in on it, as an agent provocateur to destroy the credibility of the flat earth movement.
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Ahh, isn't that cute? The word games come out again! Perhaps you should add that RE tactic to the Primer, as you sure use it a lot. That and the one where you apply arguement A to situation B. That never gets old.
Someone: That is how 'A' works.
TomG: That is wrong, as 'B' works like this...
Someone: Who said anything about 'B'?
TomG: Quit playing word games!
ROFLS with maple syrup.
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Ahh, isn't that cute? The word games come out again! Perhaps you should add that RE tactic to the Primer, as you sure use it a lot. That and the one where you apply arguement A to situation B. That never gets old.
Someone: That is how 'A' works.
TomG: That is wrong, as 'B' works like this...
Someone: Who said anything about 'B'?
TomG: Quit playing word games!
ROFLS with maple syrup.
True story.
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You can fly into space in the FE, you just can't stay there, hence, the 'sustained' part.
"staying there" could be any amount of time though.
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You can fly into space in the FE, you just can't stay there, hence, the 'sustained' part.
"staying there" could be any amount of time though.
Um...good job?
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Clearly The Engineer and Gulliver are both part of the Conspiracy, as agents instructed to hijack any "sensible" discussion and to take threads off topic.
How much are they being paid?
Are they really this serious in real life?
Are they, in fact, the same person?
I also believe that Tom Bishop must be in on it, as an agent provocateur to destroy the credibility of the flat earth movement.
I think Gulliver is actually an alternate Tom Bishop account, intended to discredit REers by making them all look like jackasses.
Note the similarities:
Both seem stuck on one line that they use over and over when their views are challenged:
Tom: I look out my window. It looks flat.
Gulliver: Do you have any evidence to back up your outlandish claim?
Both show a marked tendency of laziness when it comes to explaining their views:
Tom: Read Earth Not a Globe!
Gulliver: Read The RE Primer!
In addition, both show a frightening tendency to either not understand or not be willing to acknowledge when they are simply wrong. And both seem to live in the D&D/Q&C sections of the forum. Also, they both appear to be trying to save the world by making sure others are educated about the true shape of the earth. You think about the similarities and you come to the conclusion that they are either the same person or "evil" alternate universe versions of each other, a la the Star Trek episode "Mirror, Mirror". We have no photographs of Gulliver, but here is an artist's conception of what he might look like, if this is the case:
(http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r137/SamuelLBronkowitz/eviltombishop.jpg)
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I lol'ed.
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They're twins.
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Its actually a bit more of a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde relationship... ;)
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This thread no longer delivers.
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This thread no longer delivers.
So why the fuck would you bump it!?!?!@#?@!?#?@!?#?!@%)I#@!HOUBNWOEKUDIGBWPHOGB LISUDBfvn
o;SDANO{UVSBPDV
:-*
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The same reason any of you post.
There was this Tuesday that once was looking into things regarding a certain aspect of a monkey, but that aspect of aforementioned monkey was basically just a narc for a tree of berries that was flat out, widely known as the Bishop of Tom's Dumb, Round Ass.
But then, after the dove shit landed on the eye of the Tomato Paste label, there was a great shout from the Nomad, who then voluntarily committed Hara Taiki and stole the show, thereby making Nasa Agent non cogent, and thusly the fulfilling prophecy resulted in the an ambivalent Daniel jumping from the Ice Wall, landing squarely atop the shoulders of a damn it.
All bore witness to the Reborn Jesus, who had a firm understanding, of the grandstanding, placed upon his hordes by the unremitting terror that comes from the knowledge that everything is really Monday morning and that code posts such as this one hide a moral lesson that only those with an above average IQ can grasp and thereby posit forward, in order to save the lives of baby seals everywhere.
Not to mention, dish washing detergent!
I pretty much extrapolated all the meaning I can get out of it.
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The 150 foot Ice Wall was discovered by Sir James Clark Ross, a polar explorer who was among the first to venture to Antarctica in an attempt to determine the position of the South Magnetic Pole. Upon confronting the massive vertical front of of ice he famously remarked
"It was ... an obstruction of such character as to leave no doubt in my mind as to our future proceedings, for we might as well sail through the cliffs of Dover as to penetrate such a mass.
It would be impossible to conceive a more solid-looking mass of ice; not the smallest appearance of any rent or fissure could we discover throughout its whole extent, and the intensely bright sky beyond it but too plainly indicated the great distance to which it reached southward."
Again, Tom Bishop is misquoting the journals of James Clarke Ross. There is no ice wall that surrounds Antartica and James Clarke Ross clearly states that in his Journals, and also shows drawings not unlike the photos posted in this thread.
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Why?
We don't know, but it must be money. They are probably too drunk and too busy having "barbies" to notice what shape their continent really is in any case.
hmm, this is interesting
Speaking on behalf of most of the Australians that I know,
I am rather angered at what you said about us.
That is an extremely juvenile comment to make about a nation
you have probably never been to
and people you have probably never met, except for
'Steve Irwin' (who I have never seen drunk or having a barbie)
or 'Crocodile Dundee' who is an extremely cliche character
that only accounts for people who live in the extreme Outback,
i.e. Alice Springs or other places out in Central Aust.
And even then, they don't spend their time drunk and at Barbeques
it's called work/school my friends.
Saying that Australians are always drunk and having Barbies
is just like saying the Black people are not as good as White people.
Americans may think that Australians are not as good as themselves
but that is only because Americans do not know or understand
anything about Australia or our culture and habits.
Therefore, I think that that was an extremely poor argument to make
as to why we 'don't know the shape of our own continent'
Why would Captain Cook and Van Deman and all the other explorers
have been in on the conspiracy when they mapped Australia?
They lived in different countries with different cultural beliefs and
completely different Languages.
And before you reply and say; "Have you read the FAQ"
yes I have
and before you reply and say; "You can't spell for crap"
like you do when other people ask you questions,
I must say, it's called trying, Australia has different English spelling to America.
-Sincerely...
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Whenever I hear an Austrailian talk about their nation, they usually talk about their rugby being tougher than our football, their beer to be stronger, or their wildlife and outback to be rougher. Yet here we observe an aussy in his native environment, whining on the internet.
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Again, Tom Bishop is misquoting the journals of James Clarke Ross. There is no ice wall that surrounds Antartica and James Clarke Ross clearly states that in his Journals, and also shows drawings not unlike the photos posted in this thread.
Actually there are a series of 150 foot tall ice shelves which surrounds the coast of Antarctica. It is not one continuous wall, however. The Ice Walls are broken up and divided by trans-antarctic mountain ranges.
See: Ice Shelf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_shelf)
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yeah, that picture looks photoshopped to me, and ah, how long do you have to be in space for it to be considered sustained spaceflight?
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yeah, that picture looks photoshopped to me, and ah, how long do you have to be in space for it to be considered sustained spaceflight?
It would be a subjective value, so inquiring about an actual figure would be pointless.
Like I said, the point is that sustained spaceflight, similar to what satellites achieve, is not possible without constant refueling.
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so really all of this is just a big word game? i mean if you can get into space for long enough to see one side of the world, and then do it again and see the other side of the world isnt that enough proof that the earth is round? suborbital flight,which ive gathered theengineer believes in, is high enough to see the curve and continents of the earth.
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so really all of this is just a big word game? i mean if you can get into space for long enough to see one side of the world, and then do it again and see the other side of the world isnt that enough proof that the earth is round? suborbital flight,which ive gathered theengineer believes in, is high enough to see the curve and continents of the earth.
Calling it a word game makes it sound bad. It's just that people can't communicate properly, so it seems that way.
As for your first idea; sure, you could do it and see that the Earth is round.
As for your second idea, not really. What you see isn't always what is.
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yeah, that picture looks photoshopped to me, and ah, how long do you have to be in space for it to be considered sustained spaceflight?
Are you saying that all pictures of the Ice Shelves which surround the coast of Antarctica have been photoshopped?
so really all of this is just a big word game? i mean if you can get into space for long enough to see one side of the world, and then do it again and see the other side of the world isnt that enough proof that the earth is round? suborbital flight,which ive gathered theengineer believes in, is high enough to see the curve and continents of the earth.
It's also high enough to see that the earth is flat and rounded like a coin.
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yeah, that picture looks photoshopped to me, and ah, how long do you have to be in space for it to be considered sustained spaceflight?
Are you saying that all pictures of the Ice Shelves which surround the coast of Antarctica have been photoshopped?
so really all of this is just a big word game? i mean if you can get into space for long enough to see one side of the world, and then do it again and see the other side of the world isnt that enough proof that the earth is round? suborbital flight,which ive gathered theengineer believes in, is high enough to see the curve and continents of the earth.
It's also high enough to see that the earth is flat and rounded like a coin.
Gee, TomB earlier today the FE was infinite. Did you have a change of heart, or just forgot to update your cut-and-paste file?
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ya gee TomB, earlier in this thread(page 8, 3/4 the way down), you said that even a flat earth would appear rounded, eliptical, and now it would look like a coin? anyways, yes i can think that every ice shelf picture is photoshopped, because any FE'er thinks that a round earth picture is photoshopped or whatever the theory is.
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ya gee TomB, earlier in this thread(page 8, 3/4 the way down), you said that even a flat earth would appear rounded, eliptical, and now it would look like a coin? anyways, yes i can think that every ice shelf picture is photoshopped, because any FE'er thinks that a round earth picture is photoshopped or whatever the theory is.
No, he was pointing out your suggestion of a photoshopped photo because of the hypocrisy behind it.
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Whenever I hear an Austrailian talk about their nation, they usually talk about their rugby being tougher than our football, their beer to be stronger, or their wildlife and outback to be rougher. Yet here we observe an aussy in his native environment, whining on the internet.
Well, we do have the majority of the msot poisonous animals on the planet, on our continent.
Our Rugby probably is tougher seeing as our players don't wear any kind of major padding.
Our beer is s***house...we drink imported beer, ours is just bad
Hmm, native environment eh? I don't exactly see how the internet is a native environment.
Anyway, I don't know exactly what type of Aussies you must talk too (if indeed you actually talk too them)
they must be from beyond the black stump of something! It sounds to me like you're not really the full quid.
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Why would anyone want to go to Australia? everything wants to kill you on the land so you jump into the sea where you're stung and eaten, you live about 3/4 of a mile from the surface of the sun and at the end of the day it's a prison...it's lovely what you've done with the place but it's still a prison!
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I'm too scared to go to Australia. Not because of the poisonous animals or the rock hard rugby players, but because there's a risk that the plane might miss the right supersonic jet stream and end up going backwards or something.
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o boy
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Are you saying that all pictures of the Ice Shelves which surround the coast of Antarctica have been photoshopped?
Why not? ;)
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Are you saying that all pictures of the Ice Shelves which surround the coast of Antarctica have been photoshopped?
Its about as plausible as a massive-multinational conspiracy that browbeats countless of independant researchers, subverts the common knowledge, and manages to keep generations of the human race in the dark.
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I'm too scared to go to Australia. Not because of the poisonous animals or the rock hard rugby players, but because there's a risk that the plane might miss the right supersonic jet stream and end up going backwards or something.
jee that's enlightening...
I'm too afraid to go to America because anyone and everyone is allowed to own a gun
*check your constitution*
and there's a massive chance that I could get shot just taking a stroll in the streets
and then if I wanted to shoot someone, I could just run off to Mexico and get away with it.
Why would anyone want to go to Australia? everything wants to kill you on the land so you jump into the sea where you're stung and eaten, you live about 3/4 of a mile from the surface of the sun and at the end of the day it's a prison...it's lovely what you've done with the place but it's still a prison!
Thank dear Britannia for the prison part, I can take no credit for that unfortunately.
3/4 of a mile from the sun? that's and interesting fact, didn't know that
I should keept that in mind next time I go to the beach
where there are no jelly fish and no sharks, and a thing called
"Swimming between the flags"