Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #60 on: June 04, 2010, 02:08:36 PM »
Yah, it's definitely both sides at fault. You can probably ascribe more human dignity violations to the current state of Israel, but both sides need to concede some territory.

The problem is Palastine does not have any territory, they have been under a brutal occupation for 40 years, as Israel continues to bulldoze down Palastinian homes and put up Jewish homes.

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Guessed

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #61 on: June 04, 2010, 02:24:51 PM »
Yah, it's definitely both sides at fault. You can probably ascribe more human dignity violations to the current state of Israel, but both sides need to concede some territory.

The problem is Palastine does not have any territory, they have been under a brutal occupation for 40 years, as Israel continues to bulldoze down Palastinian homes and put up Jewish homes.

This, I found something like 200 pages of land grants from the Israeli government giving Palestinian land to Israeli citizens. This is the main reason I'm anti-zionist. There is no way the Palestinians need to concede any land at all, given that the entire state of Israel belongs to them anyway. Israel needs to realize that they are the squatters, only then can progress be made.
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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #62 on: June 04, 2010, 02:52:38 PM »
I have done a very small bit of research into the Israel/Palestine issue and just can't see any solution but a 2 state one. It seems that every UN debate or investigation results with that recommendation. Unfortunately, the US dominates the global stage...so we shall see if the imperial overlords ever change their mind.

Time and time again Israel has offered land in the hope of peace. The problem is they want Jerusalem, which they are never going to get...

If Jerusalem is the big issue, why don't they make it a neutral city state run by a council of elected officials and be done with it?

I think that was the plan initially when the Zionists started arriving, the UN planned to make Jerusalem a neutral UN-run city but naturally the Palestinians were quite rightly having none of it.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2010, 03:02:41 PM »
I have done a very small bit of research into the Israel/Palestine issue and just can't see any solution but a 2 state one. It seems that every UN debate or investigation results with that recommendation. Unfortunately, the US dominates the global stage...so we shall see if the imperial overlords ever change their mind.

Time and time again Israel has offered land in the hope of peace. The problem is they want Jerusalem, which they are never going to get...

If Jerusalem is the big issue, why don't they make it a neutral city state run by a council of elected officials and be done with it?


LOL Arabs and Jews in one city........ This city is headed for a disaster of biblical proportions.  Old Testament, real wrath of God type stuff. Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling!  Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes...the dead rising from the grave!  Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2010, 03:13:13 PM »
"dogs and cats living together" I never got that one.

Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2010, 03:18:57 PM »
I know it has been said a million times, but everybody involved in this incident it seems acted moronically. The Israelis should never have boarded the ships, or at least not with military commandos but on the other hand if there are people landing on your ship with machine guns, you don't start hitting them with clubs.
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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2010, 04:22:29 PM »
I know it has been said a million times, but everybody involved in this incident it seems acted moronically. The Israelis should never have boarded the ships, or at least not with military commandos but on the other hand if there are people landing on your ship with machine guns, you don't start hitting them with clubs.

As history has shown us countless times, rationality is often lost when you're motivated by a big group and when you're angry.

The only possible way Israel and Palestine can be at peace is if Israel simply stops expanding and stops occupying Palestine. Israel constantly wants to expand its territory (usually through the means of violence) and it does nothing but spawn more terrorism. And the more we support Israel the worse it's going to get.

Also, interesting recent article http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100604/ap_on_re_us/gaza_blockade
« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 04:27:24 PM by Areweonfiya »

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2010, 01:26:57 AM »
Yah, it's definitely both sides at fault. You can probably ascribe more human dignity violations to the current state of Israel, but both sides need to concede some territory.

The problem is Palastine does not have any territory, they have been under a brutal occupation for 40 years, as Israel continues to bulldoze down Palastinian homes and put up Jewish homes.

This, I found something like 200 pages of land grants from the Israeli government giving Palestinian land to Israeli citizens. This is the main reason I'm anti-zionist. There is no way the Palestinians need to concede any land at all, given that the entire state of Israel belongs to them anyway. Israel needs to realize that they are the squatters, only then can progress be made.

It was the Jew's land first silly. Jerusalem is the holiest city in the Jewish religion, while it isn't even top 3 for Islam. And I agree that Israel has more humanitarian violations, if you admit the Palestinians have more violent violations, including straight up suicide bombing residential/commercial areas.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2010, 05:26:22 AM »
The actual rights and wrongs of the settlement of the Palestine mandate are irrelevant, and only lead to useless finger pointing. Plenty of pro-Palestinian Americans and Europeans like to point the finger at Zionism, claiming that Palestinians had every right to resist people who were kicking them out of their land, but never forget why or how those Jews ended up there.


The centuries of persecution in Europe didn't do it. Hell, even the Holocaust didn't do it. What turned Zionism from a fringe movement into a mass movement was the decision taken by the Europeans, Soviets and Americans to deny surviving and displaced Jews the right to return home. Most properties owned by Jews prior to the war had been taken over by Europeans, and most European governments preferred not to try and change that situation. As a result, many European communities actively resisted the return of Jews, and there were several instances across Europe where Jews who had survived the Nazi regime returned to their homes (and remember, these were their homes), they were attacked and in some cases lynched and murdered by the local population.


Now, quite naturally, after a decade of the unspeakable under the Nazis (and Soviets), with European civilians actively resisting their return, and most international governments closing their doors to further European immigration, many tried to emigrate to Palestine. For most, it was quite simply the only option. When they did, they were often intercepted by the British and sent to internment camps on coast of Europe. Many of these were survivors of death camps, and as you can imagine, such a post-war existence did not seem like 'liberation' to them. These camps were quite literally breeding grounds for Zionism, and many of the immigrants changed from default Zionists to militant activists, prepared to fight and die when they reached Palestine.


So decades later, when entitled Europeans and Americans who have lived through 'optional war' or even total peace try to lecture Israelis about how they never had a right to be there in the first place, it doesn't go down terribly well. Our governments created Israel, and Europeans and Americans are totally responsible for the situation that now exists. It is totally unfair to then blame Israelis for being there in the first place.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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General Douchebag

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2010, 05:35:47 AM »
The actual rights and wrongs of the settlement of the Palestine mandate are irrelevant, and only lead to useless finger pointing. Plenty of pro-Palestinian Americans and Europeans like to point the finger at Zionism, claiming that Palestinians had every right to resist people who were kicking them out of their land, but never forget why or how those Jews ended up there.


The centuries of persecution in Europe didn't do it. Hell, even the Holocaust didn't do it. What turned Zionism from a fringe movement into a mass movement was the decision taken by the Europeans, Soviets and Americans to deny surviving and displaced Jews the right to return home. Most properties owned by Jews prior to the war had been taken over by Europeans, and most European governments preferred not to try and change that situation. As a result, many European communities actively resisted the return of Jews, and there were several instances across Europe where Jews who had survived the Nazi regime returned to their homes (and remember, these were their homes), they were attacked and in some cases lynched and murdered by the local population.


Now, quite naturally, after a decade of the unspeakable under the Nazis (and Soviets), with European civilians actively resisting their return, and most international governments closing their doors to further European immigration, many tried to emigrate to Palestine. For most, it was quite simply the only option. When they did, they were often intercepted by the British and sent to internment camps on coast of Europe. Many of these were survivors of death camps, and as you can imagine, such a post-war existence did not seem like 'liberation' to them. These camps were quite literally breeding grounds for Zionism, and many of the immigrants changed from default Zionists to militant activists, prepared to fight and die when they reached Palestine.


So decades later, when entitled Europeans and Americans who have lived through 'optional war' or even total peace try to lecture Israelis about how they never had a right to be there in the first place, it doesn't go down terribly well. Our governments created Israel, and Europeans and Americans are totally responsible for the situation that now exists. It is totally unfair to then blame Israelis for being there in the first place.

And because they suffered at the hands of Western governments that vindicates their brutal actions against some other random innocent people?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2010, 05:41:06 AM »
Sorry, but you're not debating with a retard here. I never said that or any such thing, as you well know. If you'd like to have a sensible discussion, I'm happy to participate, but if you're just going to vomit straw-man arguments you can count me out.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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General Douchebag

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2010, 05:53:56 AM »
Sorry, but you're not debating with a retard here. I never said that or any such thing, as you well know. If you'd like to have a sensible discussion, I'm happy to participate, but if you're just going to vomit straw-man arguments you can count me out.

Well, you said that it's wrong to blame Zionism for what's going on in Palestine because it was Western governments that radicalized them in the first place. If it's wrong to blame them then presumably you're implying it isn't their fault, and the Palestinians sure as hell didn't do anything to deserve this.

Which bit did I get wrong?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2010, 06:40:04 AM »
Well, you said that it's wrong to blame Zionism for what's going on in Palestine because it was Western governments that radicalized them in the first place.


Nope, I didn't.


If it's wrong to blame them then presumably you're implying it isn't their fault, and the Palestinians sure as hell didn't do anything to deserve this.

Which bit did I get wrong?


The bit where you started using emotive and exaggerated language to discuss a highly sensitive, complex and murky dispute. The moment you start blaming one side exclusively, you are exposing either a) your ignorance, or b) your dogmatism. Nobody is to blame, it's simply a series of historical events which neither party had any great control over. Both sides have done things for which they are to blame; both sides are at least partially (and any balanced view would suggest equally) responsible for the current conflict. There is no single 'bad-guy' in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there are lots of them, and they come from both sides.


However, my point was that when western governments were largely responsible for the creation of Israel, by leaving European Jews with no other option, it's highly hypocritcal and ignorant for westerners like yourself and Chris to suggest they had no right to go there in the first place. The simple fact is that they had no option but to go there, and to suggest otherwise is a historically absurd position to take.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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General Douchebag

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2010, 06:53:56 AM »
Ah, I misinterpreted your post pretty badly there. Sorry about that.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2010, 07:13:26 AM »
Ah, I misinterpreted your post pretty badly there. Sorry about that.


Not a problem. I've been very interested in this conflict since I was young, the second Intifada being all over the news at around the same time I began to become politically aware. I tend to get quite irrate when people start arguing in what I view as simplistic or biaed terms, because the conflict is simply too complex. In my youth I was actually strongly pro-Palestinian, but the more I read and learned about the conflict, the more I realised that it is far more complex than most people realise or suggest.


Almost every argument you see on the internet or on mainstream media is extraordinarily simplistic and usually brainless. There are so many moronic pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian commentators, and because the issue is so current, you often can't even trust contemporary experts and academics to provide you with a neutral perspective. I've read several history books that were utterly biased towars one side or another on shelves in local bookstores. One which stands out in my memory was a clearly pro-Arab history of the middle-east, which used words like 'murder' to describe Israeli military operations, and described Israelis polticians as 'mean and spiteful' during a particullar set of negotiations. Criticism of the known brutality exhibited by Arab regimes during this time was non-existent (and this book was by a western academic). You really have to approach the whole issue with a totally open mind, because very few people are genuinely neutral.


These days, my own view tends to be that the historical arguments don't get anyone anywhere. What people need to start doing is realising that a two-state solution is the only solution, and that agreements have to be along lines that both governments can actually deliver. There is no point pretending that an Israeli government could realistically deliver a peace-deal which sees them return to the pre-1947 borders. The Old City in Jerusalem will have to remain Israeli, because no government would be able to give it up, and the Palestinians have to accept that. Likewise, conservative Israelis have to recognise that the idea of a 'Greater Israel' is dead, and that the settlements will have to go. The half a million Jews in the West Bank will have to leave their homes, and there is no use pretending otherwise. The Palestinian people will not accept any agreement that allows them to stay. These are the realities.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Guessed

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #75 on: June 05, 2010, 09:50:23 AM »
Yah, it's definitely both sides at fault. You can probably ascribe more human dignity violations to the current state of Israel, but both sides need to concede some territory.

The problem is Palastine does not have any territory, they have been under a brutal occupation for 40 years, as Israel continues to bulldoze down Palastinian homes and put up Jewish homes.

This, I found something like 200 pages of land grants from the Israeli government giving Palestinian land to Israeli citizens. This is the main reason I'm anti-zionist. There is no way the Palestinians need to concede any land at all, given that the entire state of Israel belongs to them anyway. Israel needs to realize that they are the squatters, only then can progress be made.

It was the Jew's land first silly. Jerusalem is the holiest city in the Jewish religion, while it isn't even top 3 for Islam. And I agree that Israel has more humanitarian violations, if you admit the Palestinians have more violent violations, including straight up suicide bombing residential/commercial areas.

Fair enough, it was theirs first, but then they were expelled and new people moved in, what they're doing now is akin to squatting, and that it was sanctioned by western nations is quite frankly sickening. I will concede that the Palestinians do more suicide bombing, but both sides are equally as barbaric and violent in terms of attacking civilian targets. The problem with the Palestinian cause is that radical Islamics have aligned themselves with it. The problem with Israel is that it was created using the same sort of radicals.
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Lorddave

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #76 on: June 05, 2010, 10:04:53 AM »
I have done a very small bit of research into the Israel/Palestine issue and just can't see any solution but a 2 state one. It seems that every UN debate or investigation results with that recommendation. Unfortunately, the US dominates the global stage...so we shall see if the imperial overlords ever change their mind.

Time and time again Israel has offered land in the hope of peace. The problem is they want Jerusalem, which they are never going to get...

If Jerusalem is the big issue, why don't they make it a neutral city state run by a council of elected officials and be done with it?

I think that was the plan initially when the Zionists started arriving, the UN planned to make Jerusalem a neutral UN-run city but naturally the Palestinians were quite rightly having none of it.

Ahhh.
You know, it seems to me that Islam and Christianity are more or less branches of Judaism.  Both are based on similar stories and people.  Both have "The True God".  The only real difference I see is how they view themselves vs God. In Judaism (and stop me if I'm wrong on anything here) they see themselves as impure but capable of being on equal footing with God if they sacrifice enough.  In Islam they feel they're nothing more than God's servants and must sacrifice to gain the opportunity to serve him but never be close to him.  In Christianity, they feel that God is very close to us (ie. Jesus is God in human form) and not only can we be with god but all we need to do is accept Jesus as our savior and follow his teachings.  No sacrifice necessary.

Basically:
Christianity, Judaism, Islam
Easy, Medium, Hard.


The actual rights and wrongs of the settlement of the Palestine mandate are irrelevant, and only lead to useless finger pointing. Plenty of pro-Palestinian Americans and Europeans like to point the finger at Zionism, claiming that Palestinians had every right to resist people who were kicking them out of their land, but never forget why or how those Jews ended up there.


The centuries of persecution in Europe didn't do it. Hell, even the Holocaust didn't do it. What turned Zionism from a fringe movement into a mass movement was the decision taken by the Europeans, Soviets and Americans to deny surviving and displaced Jews the right to return home. Most properties owned by Jews prior to the war had been taken over by Europeans, and most European governments preferred not to try and change that situation. As a result, many European communities actively resisted the return of Jews, and there were several instances across Europe where Jews who had survived the Nazi regime returned to their homes (and remember, these were their homes), they were attacked and in some cases lynched and murdered by the local population.


Now, quite naturally, after a decade of the unspeakable under the Nazis (and Soviets), with European civilians actively resisting their return, and most international governments closing their doors to further European immigration, many tried to emigrate to Palestine. For most, it was quite simply the only option. When they did, they were often intercepted by the British and sent to internment camps on coast of Europe. Many of these were survivors of death camps, and as you can imagine, such a post-war existence did not seem like 'liberation' to them. These camps were quite literally breeding grounds for Zionism, and many of the immigrants changed from default Zionists to militant activists, prepared to fight and die when they reached Palestine.


So decades later, when entitled Europeans and Americans who have lived through 'optional war' or even total peace try to lecture Israelis about how they never had a right to be there in the first place, it doesn't go down terribly well. Our governments created Israel, and Europeans and Americans are totally responsible for the situation that now exists. It is totally unfair to then blame Israelis for being there in the first place.

Wait... they refused to let them back home?  Put them in camps?  I knew America did some shitty things to Japanese Americans during WW2 but this?  Why don't they ever teach this stuff in History class?  Why don't we hear about it on the News?  What the HELL is wrong with our society that we have to feign ignorance about being assholes?
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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2010, 03:45:37 PM »
I have done a very small bit of research into the Israel/Palestine issue and just can't see any solution but a 2 state one. It seems that every UN debate or investigation results with that recommendation. Unfortunately, the US dominates the global stage...so we shall see if the imperial overlords ever change their mind.

Time and time again Israel has offered land in the hope of peace. The problem is they want Jerusalem, which they are never going to get...

If Jerusalem is the big issue, why don't they make it a neutral city state run by a council of elected officials and be done with it?

I think that was the plan initially when the Zionists started arriving, the UN planned to make Jerusalem a neutral UN-run city but naturally the Palestinians were quite rightly having none of it.

Ahhh.
You know, it seems to me that Islam and Christianity are more or less branches of Judaism.  Both are based on similar stories and people.  Both have "The True God".  The only real difference I see is how they view themselves vs God. In Judaism (and stop me if I'm wrong on anything here) they see themselves as impure but capable of being on equal footing with God if they sacrifice enough.  In Islam they feel they're nothing more than God's servants and must sacrifice to gain the opportunity to serve him but never be close to him.  In Christianity, they feel that God is very close to us (ie. Jesus is God in human form) and not only can we be with god but all we need to do is accept Jesus as our savior and follow his teachings.  No sacrifice necessary.

Basically:
Christianity, Judaism, Islam
Easy, Medium, Hard.



Judaism today is something very different than Judaism in the past, even for orthodox jews. I wouldn't say Judaism is about sacrifice at all, in todays world. And it's probable that when Christianity was formed, they got rid of a lot of the dietary stuff because it was unpopular. Idk I'm not an expert in the subject.

As to the two state solution, Israel has given up land in the past for two states, in the hope of peace. But they aren't ever going to give up Jerusalem, at least not in the foreseeable future.

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Mykael

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2010, 11:56:39 PM »
I have a long-held stance on not getting involved in this specific issue. There are many points to be made for both sides, and the history/background of the issue stretches back centuries.


Edit: This is going to get really interesting really fast.
http://www.popjolly.com/turkish-naval-warships-to-accompany-turkish-prime-minister-on-the-next-aid-mission-608
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 12:16:19 AM by Myjafjallajokul »

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Tech

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #79 on: June 06, 2010, 12:56:59 AM »
Turkey needs Israel, it needs those drone thingies for some rebels they are fighting

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #80 on: June 06, 2010, 05:47:08 AM »
Wait... they refused to let them back home?  Put them in camps?  I knew America did some shitty things to Japanese Americans during WW2 but this?  Why don't they ever teach this stuff in History class?  Why don't we hear about it on the News?  What the HELL is wrong with our society that we have to feign ignorance about being assholes?


It wasn't so much a case of deliberately putting them in camps, as having nowhere else to put them. Jews did not want to go back to Poland and be killed in pograms (as happened on a few occasions), so tried going to Palestine. The British wanted to prevent a full-scale war in the mandate, so they sent them back and put them in camps. These were difficult times for everyone, and there were few easy decisions. Many American and British politicians and civil servants were greatly disturbed by the situation of the Jews after the Holocaust, but at then end of the day, what could they do? Right now, in this topic, people are criticising western governments for allowing Israel to come into existence. Arab nationalism (and oil) were also big factors, especially in a world economy that (America aside) was in pieces.


I guess all I was saying is that arguments which suggest Jews had o right to be in Israel in the first place are extremely simplistic, and don't take into account their situation after the war.


Turkey needs Israel, it needs those drone thingies for some rebels they are fighting


Turkey is a sleeping giant in military terms. They have the largest army of any NATO country bar the United States. I imagine that only Britain and America have more effective armed forces.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Tech

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2010, 08:01:16 PM »
Sorry I misspoke. I didn't mean that Turkey needed Israel, but more that, they are continuing to buy these drone ships from Israel even after the raid.

Also, here's a yahoo article with some updates.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100607/ap_on_re_us/gaza_blockade

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #82 on: June 07, 2010, 05:40:13 AM »
Turkey is actually a massive tourism destination for Israelis, so I don't think they'll jeopardise that kind of income.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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parsec

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #83 on: June 07, 2010, 06:40:48 AM »
Turkey is actually a massive tourism destination for Israelis, so I don't think they'll jeopardise that kind of income.

And also for Germans, British, Russians, etc.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2010, 09:14:21 AM »
Soooo...if the Gaza strip is in such DIRE need of these supplies...why did Hamas turn down the now Israeli inspected goods when they offered them.  I guess Hamas would rather its people suffer than get the supplies they have bitched about not getting.  Seems like a logical choice.  And the Israelis are the bad ones here.  ::)

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General Douchebag

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #85 on: June 07, 2010, 09:35:03 AM »
Soooo...if the Gaza strip is in such DIRE need of these supplies...why did Hamas turn down the now Israeli inspected goods when they offered them.  I guess Hamas would rather its people suffer than get the supplies they have bitched about not getting.  Seems like a logical choice.  And the Israelis are the bad ones here.  ::)

Of course, because there always has to be a good guy fighting a bad guy. The USSR crushing the Third Reich must have been a matter of some confusion to you. We're not arguing in favour of Hamas as anti-Zionists, we're arguing against the actions of Israel as humanitarians.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2010, 09:41:15 AM »
Soooo...if the Gaza strip is in such DIRE need of these supplies...why did Hamas turn down the now Israeli inspected goods when they offered them.  I guess Hamas would rather its people suffer than get the supplies they have bitched about not getting.  Seems like a logical choice.  And the Israelis are the bad ones here.  ::)

Of course, because there always has to be a good guy fighting a bad guy. The USSR crushing the Third Reich must have been a matter of some confusion to you. We're not arguing in favour of Hamas as anti-Zionists, we're arguing against the actions of Israel as humanitarians.

So if your people are dying refuse them aid because someone else touched it?  Your right...i dont get it.

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2010, 11:44:48 AM »
Soooo...if the Gaza strip is in such DIRE need of these supplies...why did Hamas turn down the now Israeli inspected goods when they offered them.  I guess Hamas would rather its people suffer than get the supplies they have bitched about not getting.  Seems like a logical choice.  And the Israelis are the bad ones here.  ::)

Of course, because there always has to be a good guy fighting a bad guy. The USSR crushing the Third Reich must have been a matter of some confusion to you. We're not arguing in favour of Hamas as anti-Zionists, we're arguing against the actions of Israel as humanitarians.

So if your people are dying refuse them aid because someone else touched it?  Your right...i dont get it.

It's beside the point, Israel is responsible for the well being of the people in Gaza, under international law an occupying force is responsible for the people they are occupying.  Israel is currenly only allowing about 25 percent of the humanitarian aid needed by the people of Gaza, they are also shutting off their sewage and power, and denying them medicine, and many other supplies that have no ties with weapons whatsoever.  I am not excusing Hamas, but they are very small compared to Israel.  The threat Hamas poses to Israel is miniscule.

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Lorddave

  • 18173
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #88 on: June 07, 2010, 12:29:26 PM »
Wait... they refused to let them back home?  Put them in camps?  I knew America did some shitty things to Japanese Americans during WW2 but this?  Why don't they ever teach this stuff in History class?  Why don't we hear about it on the News?  What the HELL is wrong with our society that we have to feign ignorance about being assholes?


It wasn't so much a case of deliberately putting them in camps, as having nowhere else to put them. Jews did not want to go back to Poland and be killed in pograms (as happened on a few occasions), so tried going to Palestine. The British wanted to prevent a full-scale war in the mandate, so they sent them back and put them in camps. These were difficult times for everyone, and there were few easy decisions. Many American and British politicians and civil servants were greatly disturbed by the situation of the Jews after the Holocaust, but at then end of the day, what could they do? Right now, in this topic, people are criticising western governments for allowing Israel to come into existence. Arab nationalism (and oil) were also big factors, especially in a world economy that (America aside) was in pieces.


I guess all I was saying is that arguments which suggest Jews had o right to be in Israel in the first place are extremely simplistic, and don't take into account their situation after the war.


So basically the Jews were still being lynched/killed even after the war and didn't want to go back home, forcing the governments to make temporary camps for them instead of having them all flood into Palestine and piss Palestine off?

How, exactly, did the governments convince Palestine to give up the land for Israel in the first place?
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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parsec

  • 6196
  • 206,265
Re: Israel vs. Turkish Sea vessel
« Reply #89 on: June 07, 2010, 12:32:56 PM »
...having them all flood into Palestine and piss Palestine off?

How, exactly, did the governments convince Palestine to give up the land for Israel in the first place?
Why exactly would a piece of land be pissed or has to be convinced?