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Shills Lie about the Gas Laws.

Yes they do!
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NO NO NO WE DO NOT OH NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
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Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.

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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #240 on: December 06, 2016, 02:23:41 AM »
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 02:12:06 AM
Assuming you're right about the w=pV fomula (you aren't, it only applies when the container of the gas is unable to move), you still have the problem of conservation of momentum being violated.

I am, it doesn't & I don't.

Look; I already addressed COM not being violated:

Quote from: Papa Legba on December 05, 2016, 05:58:47 AM
Quote from: PsychopathicShill on December 05, 2016, 05:06:27 AM
The gas does no work on the vacuum.

It does no work on anything, weirdo.

Look:

http://web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/FALL/thermodynamics/notes/node33.html

"During the expansion there is no work exchanged with the system because there is no motion of the boundaries".

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eYQHIjkaEroC&pg=PA39&lpg=PA39&dq=joule+free+expansion+conservation+of+energy&source=bl&ots=lNNu7CV1-P&sig=YMAwtaJTmLf7BF4Ts4jcWzVTY98&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjWv6XJh6rPAhXEOxoKHXskDjw4ChDoAQgfMAE#v=onepage&q=joule%20free%20expansion%20conservation%20of%20energy&f=false

"Joule noticed that in this process (i.e. Free Expansion) the gas does not 'develop mechanical power' i.e. no mechanical work is performed either by or on the gas".

Thus, both the Momentum of the individual particles & the Energy of the gas as a whole are entirely Conserved.

So both COM & COE are observed.

Not hard to understand eh?

Well, unless you're paid not to I guess?

Toodle-pip, paid-to-be-a-retard Psycho-Shill; enjoy telling your family what you do for a living!

How long will you be allowed to carry on your deliberate lying?
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PsychedelicPill

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #241 on: December 06, 2016, 02:33:27 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 05, 2016, 09:39:59 PM
Quote from: PsychopathicShill on December 05, 2016, 05:47:13 PM


Fixed mass of gas on the left? Nope!

LOL!!!

Nice flow-rate equation disguised as a 'thrust' equation retard...

So the rocket's tanks do not contain a fixed mass of gas?

There are no words. NO WORDS. You actually think that a liquid rockets fuel tanks contain gas?

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Cool story Geoff!

Morning Geoffrey!

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You have no idea what free expansion is do you?

Clearly you don't, otherwise you'd understand why it doesn't apply to a rocket engine where fuel and oxidiser combine to create gas and a generate pressure in the combustion chamber.

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And you REALLY need to understand that Pressure is a Scalar quantity, NOT a Vector quantity, so your mad idea of 'unbalanced forces in the combustion chamber creating thrust' goes right out the window...

Lol! You might as well say mass is scalar, so F = ma means that objects can't be accelerated! Pressure may be scalar, but velocity is a vector, blow-tard! Hence the resultant force is a vector. Physics 101 fail - AGAIN!

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Here; have a CITATION to support what I just said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure#Definition

See; wasn't hard to find that CITATION was it Geoff?

I'm not Geoff, I'm Bungle, Zippy and George. But hey, if you want to call me Geoff, call me Geoff, I'm still in stitches that you're using Wikipedia as a CITATION. Well, by your own rules, I hereby cite every source on Wikipedia that supports the fact that rockets work and do indeed fly in a vacuum. Can I be bothered listing them all? Nah!

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Just stop trying to act 'cool' & STFU eh?

You got nothing but bluff & bluster & everybody knows it.

^^ He knows he's been roasted ^^

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Rather than just an enormous mass of angry pompous pseudo-scientific bullshit...

Rockets don't work in a vacuum = enormous mass of angry pompous pseudo-scientific bullshit.

Strudels!
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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #242 on: December 06, 2016, 02:48:01 AM »
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #243 on: December 06, 2016, 03:50:24 AM »
Quote from: PsychopathicShill on December 06, 2016, 02:33:27 AM
<enormous garbled citation-&-science-free time-wasting gish-gallop snipped>

STFU Geoff.

Read this, then learn to multiply by zero:

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

Then read this & understand why your & NASA's interpretation of Newton is 'dead wrong':

https://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/confusion-regarding-newtons-third-law-of-motion/

Or don't...

Nobody cares.

Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 02:48:01 AM


Please show where I stated the Momentum of the individual gas particles would be zero?

I stated that their Momentum would be Conserved.

And I am correct, as they will have done no Work as they expanded freely into the vacuum.

So, again you are found to be deliberately Lying.

Quite the habit with you is it not?

Only question is, whether you are Paid to do so, or Programmed?

Again though, nobody really cares.

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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #244 on: December 06, 2016, 04:23:19 AM »
If momentum is conserved and the rocket doesn't move, then the total momentum of the gas that has left the rocket must be zero. So for each particle moving in one direction there must be another moving in the other direction.
How does the gas moving in the <-- direction ever leave the rocket?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 04:25:31 AM by Empirical »
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rabinoz

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #245 on: December 06, 2016, 04:47:15 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 03:50:24 AM
Quote from: PsychopathicShill on December 06, 2016, 02:33:27 AM
<enormous garbled citation-&-science-free time-wasting gish-gallop snipped>
https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

I'll use those equations next time I design a  ??? piston engined space-vehicle  ???.

In the meantime for a rocket powered space-vehicle, I'd look up the equations that could be applied to a continuous thermodynamic process.

Carry on carrying on - it's getting entaining wathching you build up more and more steam.
I do so hope you have a pressure relief valve - better look that up at the "KhanAcademy" too!
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #246 on: December 06, 2016, 05:11:54 AM »
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 04:23:19 AM
If momentum is conserved and the rocket doesn't move, then the total momentum of the gas that has left the rocket must be zero.

Incorrect.

Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 04:23:19 AM
So for each particle moving in one direction there must be another moving in the other direction.

Non-sequitur.

Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 04:23:19 AM
How does the gas moving in the <-- direction ever leave the rocket?

Because it is a gas, not a solid.

https://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/liquids/character.html

Yeah; I'm certain you're a bot now.

Quote from: Geoff on December 06, 2016, 04:47:15 AM
for a rocket powered space-vehicle, I'd look up the equations that could be applied to a continuous thermodynamic process.

Please explain why Work = external Pressure x change in Volume cannot be applied to a continuous thermodynamic process, as well as proving that atmospheric pressure is not external to a rocket in support of your claim that W=pv is inapplicable to the rocket's functioning...

With CITATIONS please!

Or just keep lying & shitposting your way through the thread until there is not a single doubt left in anyone's head that you are a shill?

Either's good.

Toodle-pip, Geoff!
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markjo

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #247 on: December 06, 2016, 05:30:47 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 12:08:53 AM
So yes, a rocket does GIVE gas to a vacuum; but, as a vacuum is NOTHING, the rocket receives NOTHING in return.

This is why the gas will expand, freely, into the vacuum whilst doing no work on either the vacuum or the rocket.
Why should anyone care what happens to the gasses after they leave the rocket engine? 

The hot, expanding gasses have already done all of the important work as they made their way through the rocket engine.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #248 on: December 06, 2016, 05:47:26 AM »
Quote from: markjo on December 06, 2016, 05:30:47 AM
Why should anyone care what happens to the gasses after they leave the rocket engine?

Because W=pv.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

Keep up old man!

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The hot, expanding gasses have already done all of the important work as they made their way through the rocket engine.

Incorrect.

As pressure is a Scalar quantity then there will be no unbalanced force within the engine/combustion chamber & thus no motion produced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure#Definition

Please stop wasting my time with citation-free pseudo-science.
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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #249 on: December 06, 2016, 06:18:05 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 05:11:54 AM
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 04:23:19 AM
If momentum is conserved and the rocket doesn't move, then the total momentum of the gas that has left the rocket must be zero.

Incorrect.
So you're saying the rocket starts with zero momentum, and the gas starts with zero momentum, and you end with a rocket with zero momentum and gas with momentum p, so 0+0=0+p.
And you are saying p isn't 0. Lol
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #250 on: December 06, 2016, 06:23:47 AM »
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 06:18:05 AM
So you're saying the rocket starts with zero momentum, and the gas starts with zero momentum

Incorrect.

https://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/liquids/character.html

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markjo

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #251 on: December 06, 2016, 06:32:54 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 05:47:26 AM
Quote from: markjo on December 06, 2016, 05:30:47 AM
Why should anyone care what happens to the gasses after they leave the rocket engine?

Because W=pv.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

Keep up old man!
Why does W=pv not apply inside the rocket engine?

Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 05:47:26 AM
Quote
The hot, expanding gasses have already done all of the important work as they made their way through the rocket engine.

Incorrect.

As pressure is a Scalar quantity then there will be no unbalanced force within the engine/combustion chamber & thus no motion produced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure#Definition

Please stop wasting my time with citation-free pseudo-science.
But you already said that gasses do have mass. 

Therefore gasses in motion have momentum (which is a vector quantity that must be conserved).
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/momentum/Lesson-1/Momentum

Also, F=ma applies.

Please stop cherry picking your physics and ignoring the rest.
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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #252 on: December 06, 2016, 07:16:41 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 06:23:47 AM
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 06:18:05 AM
So you're saying the rocket starts with zero momentum, and the gas starts with zero momentum

Incorrect.

https://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/liquids/character.html
So you're saying the rocket starts with zero momentum, and the gas starts with zero net momentum.
Sorry I thought the net part was normally just implied.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 07:33:15 AM by Empirical »
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PsychedelicPill

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #253 on: December 06, 2016, 07:57:00 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 03:50:24 AM
Then read this & understand why your & NASA's interpretation of Newton is 'dead wrong':

https://physicsparsimony.wordpress.com/2011/12/22/confusion-regarding-newtons-third-law-of-motion/

I've never built a rocket and sent it into space. However, NASA have, so has Russia, ESA (several countries including the UK, France, Italy), Japan, China, India, Australia, Ukraine and others. Of course, all the scientists and engineers involved in those space programmes over the decades were all completely and utterly wrong, and Proppa D-K is the harbinger of troof, shining his troof-torch into the deep, murky crevasse that is the world of lying rocket scientists. I didn't watch last night's football on satellite TV, I simply imagined it. When I drove to the Lakes a few months back, I didn't arrive safely at my destination using GPS, it was random chance!

Poor, poor Poppa. So completely wrong, and lacking the ability to recognise his wrongness, the poster-child for Dunning-Kruger. Either that, or a construct for the most persistent shill-bot ever created: in which case, I admire your programming, had me fooled for a while! Should we worry if you become self-aware? ;P

Quote
Or don't...

Nobody cares.

OK, I didn't.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #254 on: December 06, 2016, 08:07:24 AM »
Quote from: markjo on December 06, 2016, 06:32:54 AM
Why does W=pv not apply inside the rocket engine?

Cos the P refers to EXTERNAL pressure, dingus.

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/chemistry/thermodynamics-chemistry/internal-energy-sal/a/pressure-volume-work

Quote from: markjo on December 06, 2016, 06:32:54 AM
gasses in motion have momentum (which is a vector quantity that must be conserved).
http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/momentum/Lesson-1/Momentum

And the momentum of that gas will be conserved as it expands freely into a vacuum...

Because it does no Work as it expands.

https://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/sm1/Thermalhtml/node66.html

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/work.html

As I already explained.

Of course this is far more easily understood in terms of COE than COM...

So please stop cherry-picking your physics & ignoring the entirety of Thermodynamics.


Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 07:16:41 AM
So you're saying the rocket starts with zero momentum, and the gas starts with zero net momentum.

Incorrect.

Quote from: PsychopathicShill on December 06, 2016, 07:57:00 AM
More crazed, science & citation free, ad populum ranting from an obvious sock-puppet

LOL!!!

GTFO you bunch of robots...

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PsychedelicPill

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #255 on: December 06, 2016, 08:17:07 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 08:07:24 AM
Quote from: PsychopathicShill on December 06, 2016, 07:57:00 AM
More crazed, science & citation free, ad populum ranting from an obvious sock-puppet

LOL!!!

GTFO you bunch of robots...



^^ Geoff in meltdown, furiously Googling Dunning-Kruger. ^^

At least the Flat Earth people know they're wrong. And I'm clean out of pop-corn :(

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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #256 on: December 06, 2016, 08:32:35 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 08:07:24 AM
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 07:16:41 AM
So you're saying the rocket starts with zero momentum, and the gas starts with zero net momentum.

Incorrect.
How, the net momentum of the gas in the rocket must be the same as the rocket, otherwise the center of mass of the gas in the rocket would be moving relative to the rocket before it is released?
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #257 on: December 06, 2016, 08:45:02 AM »
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 08:32:35 AM
How, the net momentum of the gas in the rocket must be the same as the rocket, otherwise the center of mass of the gas in the rocket would be moving relative to the rocket before it is released?

LMFAO!!!



Quote from: PsychopathicShill on December 06, 2016, 08:17:07 AM
PURE VIRGIN SHILL-RAGE!!! ANGER!!! SHIT JOKES!!! FAIL!!! BOO-HOO!!! BOO-HOO!!!

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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #258 on: December 06, 2016, 09:07:02 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 08:45:02 AM
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 08:32:35 AM
How, the net momentum of the gas in the rocket must be the same as the rocket, otherwise the center of mass of the gas in the rocket would be moving relative to the rocket before it is released?

LMFAO!!!
What, the (center of mass of a system)'s velocity is (sum of the parts momentums,  aka net momentum)/(mass of system)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2016, 09:18:35 AM by Empirical »
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #259 on: December 06, 2016, 09:34:03 AM »
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 09:07:02 AM
the (center of mass of a system)'s velocity is (sum of the parts momentums,  aka net momentum)/(mass of system)

LMFAO!!!

Even the robots are dancing for Papa now:



Opa Gangnam Style!
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sokarul

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #260 on: December 06, 2016, 09:36:12 AM »
F=ma
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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #261 on: December 06, 2016, 09:40:09 AM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 09:34:03 AM
Quote from: Empirical on December 06, 2016, 09:07:02 AM
the (center of mass of a system)'s velocity is (sum of the parts momentums,  aka net momentum)/(mass of system)

LMFAO!!!
Great argument 10/10
No wonder you fail at everything.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #262 on: December 06, 2016, 11:03:19 AM »
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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #263 on: December 06, 2016, 11:46:10 AM »
No text this time, I think I broke him.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #264 on: December 06, 2016, 01:44:01 PM »
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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #265 on: December 06, 2016, 01:48:34 PM »
Yeap, 100% breakdown.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #266 on: December 06, 2016, 02:07:12 PM »
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Empirical

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #267 on: December 06, 2016, 02:16:04 PM »
Poor little Popa, all alone, never gets anything right, always messes up.
It was your fault.
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Papa Legba

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #268 on: December 06, 2016, 02:26:53 PM »
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PsychedelicPill

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Re: Shills claim rockets work in a vacuum.
« Reply #269 on: December 06, 2016, 02:28:24 PM »
Quote from: Papa Legba on December 06, 2016, 08:07:24 AM
And the momentum of that gas will be conserved as it expands freely into a vacuum...

Because it does no Work as it expands.

As I already explained.

Kerrect! It does no work as it expands freely into the vacuum.

Unfortunately for your 'argument', the gas does do work inside the combustion chamber and rocket nozzle.

Quote
Of course this is far more easily understood in terms of COE than COM...

Yup! Just a shame you don't understand the whole process, yet use your lack of knowledge as proof that GPS satellites don't exist.

Quote
So please stop cherry-picking your physics & ignoring the entirety of Thermodynamics.

Oh, come on Pops!  Cherry-picking Physics? You're funny! I almost like you!

Try and thunk a bit more clearly Pops. Free expansion of a gas... free expansion... is that really what's happening in a combustion chamber? You really think that's the same process as opening a stopcock and letting gas expand into a vacuum?

Riddle me this, keyboard warrior. Does the pressure in the gas chamber stay the same, or reduce, in the Joule experiment? Now compare that to a rocket engine combustion chamber.

And I'm still waiting on video evidence of you face-farting that blancmange, and proof of your peer-reviewed papers where you re-write the Laws of PFhysics.


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