Flat Earth VS General Relativity

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TheEngineer

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #240 on: February 16, 2016, 11:33:31 AM »
Nowhere does it say gravity is not real.  It only says gravity is a fictitious force.  Once again a fictitious force is:

Quote from: dictionary.com
noun, Physics.
1.
any force that is postulated to account for apparent deviations from Newton's laws of motion appearing in an accelerated reference system.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fictitious-force?s=t

So, you are wrong.  And keep insisting on being wrong.
How am I wrong?  What you just posted shows that I am correct.  Good try, though.  I mean 'good try' assuming your intention is to look like an idiot.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #241 on: February 16, 2016, 12:25:33 PM »
What claim did I make?  That you are dumb?  ???

That they're lying about finding gravitational waves.

Great.  Show me some evidence that they found them and did not just lie to get more government money.  Thanks.

No, you made the claim that they're lying so you provide the evidence.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

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Rama Set

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #242 on: February 16, 2016, 12:26:20 PM »
Nowhere does it say gravity is not real.  It only says gravity is a fictitious force.  Once again a fictitious force is:

Quote from: dictionary.com
noun, Physics.
1.
any force that is postulated to account for apparent deviations from Newton's laws of motion appearing in an accelerated reference system.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fictitious-force?s=t

So, you are wrong.  And keep insisting on being wrong.
How am I wrong?  What you just posted shows that I am correct.  Good try, though.  I mean 'good try' assuming your intention is to look like an idiot.

No where in the definition of fictional force is non-existence or unreality postulated.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #243 on: February 16, 2016, 12:32:48 PM »
What claim did I make?  That you are dumb?  ???

That they're lying about finding gravitational waves.

Great.  Show me some evidence that they found them and did not just lie to get more government money.  Thanks.

No, you made the claim that they're lying so you provide the evidence.

What claim?  Are you just going to make something up again?  I would make popcorn while awaiting you to squirm out of this one, but a beer will have to do for now. 

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #244 on: February 16, 2016, 12:38:51 PM »
What claim did I make?  That you are dumb?  ???

That they're lying about finding gravitational waves.

Great.  Show me some evidence that they found them and did not just lie to get more government money.  Thanks.

No, you made the claim that they're lying so you provide the evidence.

What claim?  Are you just going to make something up again?  I would make popcorn while awaiting you to squirm out of this one, but a beer will have to do for now.

Ok, do you believe they are lying when they say that they found gravitational waves? If so what evidence you have for that?
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #245 on: February 16, 2016, 01:08:48 PM »
Except I have shown that gravity is fictitious.  Hence, I am correct.
Gravity isn't fictitious, gravity can be modeled as a fictitious force. There is a difference.
Nowhere have you shown gravity (which is a distortion of space time caused by the presence of mass) to be fictitious.
Because as I have said 20 times, GR says that gravity is a real distortion of space time. This real distortion causes a fictitious force to appear.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 01:55:44 PM by Empirical »

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Dog

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #246 on: February 16, 2016, 03:33:35 PM »
You have not shown that I am wrong about anything.  Not even once.

I'm The Pope! I'm The Pope! Wow this is fun.

Great.  Show me some evidence that they found them and did not just lie to get more government money.  Thanks.

Quote
"The burden of proof lies with someone who is making a claim, and is not upon anyone else to disprove."

Go ahead jroa, provide some proof for your claim. Or just pull another jroa, doesn't matter really.

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dispute

Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #247 on: February 16, 2016, 04:09:04 PM »
What claim did I make?  That you are dumb?  ???

That they're lying about finding gravitational waves.

Great.  Show me some evidence that they found them and did not just lie to get more government money.  Thanks.

No, you made the claim that they're lying so you provide the evidence.

What claim?  Are you just going to make something up again?  I would make popcorn while awaiting you to squirm out of this one, but a beer will have to do for now.

I know you are but what am I?

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #248 on: February 16, 2016, 06:48:18 PM »
What claim did I make?  That you are dumb?  ???

That they're lying about finding gravitational waves.

Great.  Show me some evidence that they found them and did not just lie to get more government money.  Thanks.

No, you made the claim that they're lying so you provide the evidence.

What claim?  Are you just going to make something up again?  I would make popcorn while awaiting you to squirm out of this one, but a beer will have to do for now.

Ok, do you believe they are lying when they say that they found gravitational waves? If so what evidence you have for that?

In your world, nobody ever lies, right? 

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dispute

Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #249 on: February 16, 2016, 07:08:41 PM »
What claim did I make?  That you are dumb?  ???

That they're lying about finding gravitational waves.

Great.  Show me some evidence that they found them and did not just lie to get more government money.  Thanks.

No, you made the claim that they're lying so you provide the evidence.

What claim?  Are you just going to make something up again?  I would make popcorn while awaiting you to squirm out of this one, but a beer will have to do for now.

Ok, do you believe they are lying when they say that they found gravitational waves? If so what evidence you have for that?

In your world, nobody ever lies, right?

No you're a towel

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #250 on: February 16, 2016, 07:11:24 PM »
What claim did I make?  That you are dumb?  ???

That they're lying about finding gravitational waves.

Great.  Show me some evidence that they found them and did not just lie to get more government money.  Thanks.

No, you made the claim that they're lying so you provide the evidence.

What claim?  Are you just going to make something up again?  I would make popcorn while awaiting you to squirm out of this one, but a beer will have to do for now.

Ok, do you believe they are lying when they say that they found gravitational waves? If so what evidence you have for that?

In your world, nobody ever lies, right?

No you're a towel

???

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dispute

Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #251 on: February 16, 2016, 07:19:53 PM »
Jroa your gif in your sig denotes your intelligence.

Please play quietly while the adults are talking.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #252 on: February 16, 2016, 07:47:45 PM »
No where in the definition of fictional force is non-existence or unreality postulated.
Uh, that's exactly what it postulates.  Lol!


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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TheEngineer

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #253 on: February 16, 2016, 07:51:23 PM »
This real distortion causes a fictitious force to appear.
No, it doesn't. 


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Rama Set

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #254 on: February 16, 2016, 08:03:10 PM »
No where in the definition of fictional force is non-existence or unreality postulated.
Uh, that's exactly what it postulates.  Lol!

Using the definition I cited, please show the portion that denotes that.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #255 on: February 16, 2016, 08:09:54 PM »
Quote from: dictionary.com
noun, Physics.
1.
any force that is postulated to account for apparent deviations from Newton's laws of motion appearing in an accelerated reference system.
*Sigh* Right there.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Rama Set

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #256 on: February 16, 2016, 08:53:45 PM »
Quote from: dictionary.com
noun, Physics.
1.
any force that is postulated to account for apparent deviations from Newton's laws of motion appearing in an accelerated reference system.
*Sigh* Right there.

You really struggle with English.  Nothing in there implies or directly posits something not existing.  In fact the use of the word "apparent" indicates quite succinctly that there is something real happening.  So sorry, but you are wrong... again...
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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TheEngineer

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #257 on: February 16, 2016, 10:15:26 PM »
How?  Show me.

Because that definition states that I am right.  The fact that you don't understand what it means has no bearing on my correctness.  I am correct whether you understand what you are talking about or not.


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #258 on: February 17, 2016, 03:02:52 AM »
Jroa your gif in your sig denotes your intelligence.

Please play quietly while the adults are talking.

Am I still a towel, though?  ???

Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #259 on: February 17, 2016, 03:16:18 AM »
This real distortion causes a fictitious force to appear.
No, it doesn't.
You are wrong. GR says that gravity is a distortion of space time.
Are you saying this equation isn't describing space  time being distorted
This is an equation from GR that says mass will curve space time, hence causing gravity, hence you were wrong to say gravity isn't real.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 03:41:15 AM by Empirical »

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #260 on: February 17, 2016, 03:42:59 AM »
GR also says that your gravity is indistinguishable from an acceleration.  Do you not believe in GR? 

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Rama Set

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #261 on: February 17, 2016, 04:12:06 AM »
How?  Show me.

Because that definition states that I am right.  The fact that you don't understand what it means has no bearing on my correctness.  I am correct whether you understand what you are talking about or not.

I just did. Nothing in that definition implies or outright states that a fictional force does not exist. You need to start putting some effort in with this troll of yours. I figured if you knew as much about GR as you claim, you could just prove this mathematically or something.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Rama Set

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #262 on: February 17, 2016, 04:13:07 AM »
GR also says that your gravity is indistinguishable from an acceleration.  Do you not believe in GR?

GR doesn't say that, your selective portion of the equivalence principle says that.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #263 on: February 17, 2016, 04:14:36 AM »
GR also says that your gravity is indistinguishable from an acceleration.  Do you not believe in GR?

GR doesn't say that, your selective portion of the equivalence principle says that.

Perhaps you can explain the Equivalence Principle to us then, since you are much smarter than Einstein? 

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Jack

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #264 on: February 17, 2016, 06:29:03 AM »
As I said, this is completely incorrect.  The fictional force experienced while in an accelerating car is not caused by a mathematical construct, it is caused by an actual physical phenomena.  Similarly, gravity is caused by the bending of space-time by mass-energy-momentum.  This bending is not a mathematical construct, it is an actual physical phenomenon.
I never said fictitious forces are caused by a mathematical construct. I said they are mathematical constructs. They're invented to ensure that one can still use Newton's laws of motion when she wishes to work in a non-inertial frame of reference with respect to an inertial one.

The dictionary definition of fictitious forces that you've given explains why they're considered fictitious. A non-inertial observer who assumes herself to be at rest with respect to an object will notice it to be accelerating with no force acting upon it (as the observer is accelerating with respect to it), but to accelerate without being subjected to a force would be a clear deviation from Newton's laws of motion. To resolve this so that the laws hold in this non-inertial reference frame, we must postulate a force that acts on the object. This means the force is not real, but imagined strictly for mathematical convenience.

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Rama Set

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #265 on: February 17, 2016, 06:51:31 AM »
I'm not saying Gravity is a real force, I am saying that it is a real interaction between mass-energy-momentum that gives rise to a fictitious force. For the Engineer to claim otherwise, but still say GR is valid is a nonsensical position. He would have to ignore terms in the basic equations of GR to do so. It becomes even more precarious when you introduce observations like gravity waves.

The basic premise I am claiming is this: fictional forces are caused by real phenomena. It is in this regard I say they are real. When we start saying that gravity or the centrifugal force are not real, you are literally ignoring your senses which seems insane.

If you want to postulate a different source for any given fictional force go ahead, build your argument; but saying gravity is not real because it is a fictional force is nothing more than word games, which I am happy to play, and I am not saying you are engaging in, but it gets us nowhere.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #266 on: February 17, 2016, 08:40:43 AM »
What claim did I make?  That you are dumb?  ???

That they're lying about finding gravitational waves.

Great.  Show me some evidence that they found them and did not just lie to get more government money.  Thanks.

No, you made the claim that they're lying so you provide the evidence.

What claim?  Are you just going to make something up again?  I would make popcorn while awaiting you to squirm out of this one, but a beer will have to do for now.

Ok, do you believe they are lying when they say that they found gravitational waves? If so what evidence you have for that?

In your world, nobody ever lies, right?

I can distinguish between fact or fiction but at the same time for the most part I give people the benifit of the doubt. People lie no doubt but unless they are proven to be lying then I'm inlcined to believe them. Now that I answered you're red herring please answer my question. Do you believe they are lying about gravitational waves? If so what is your evidence.
The Bible doesn't support a flat earth.

Scripture, facts, science, stats, and logic is how I argue.

Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #267 on: February 17, 2016, 09:05:03 AM »
GR also says that your gravity is indistinguishable from an acceleration.  Do you not believe in GR?

GR doesn't say that, your selective portion of the equivalence principle says that.

Perhaps you can explain the Equivalence Principle to us then, since you are much smarter than Einstein?
A local experiment cannot tell the difference between gravity and an accelerating reference frame.
That is what GR says. You forget the bolded word.

One non local experiment that GR says can tell the difference between gravity and an accelerating reference frame is dropping two balls in a vacuum, one above the other. GR says that in a gravitational field the distance between the two balls will increase over time, while in an accelerating reference frame the distance will stay the same.

Another experiment to tell the difference between a gravitational field and an accelerating reference frame that you can do on earth, measure the acceleration of a dropped object at ground level, and measure it at a significant height above sea level. In a gravitational field the acceleration will be different, in an accelerating reference frame it will be the same for both objects.

And being able to use these experiments to tell the difference between an accelerating reference frame and gravity, it doesn't go against the equivalence principle, because nether experiment is local.

If you don't know, a local experiment means that all objects in the experiment must stay within an infinitesimal distance of each other.

Also, if you believe general relativity is right, why are you trying to argue that gravity waves weren't found. If the FET agrees with GR, it must have an explanation for gravity waves.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2016, 09:07:50 AM by Empirical »

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TheEngineer

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #268 on: February 17, 2016, 11:13:38 AM »
This real distortion causes a fictitious force to appear.
No, it doesn't.
You are wrong. GR says that gravity is a distortion of space time.
Are you saying this equation isn't describing space  time being distorted
This is an equation from GR that says mass will curve space time, hence causing gravity, hence you were wrong to say gravity isn't real.
Let me ask you this:  If I am in space far from any reference points, but in a gravitational field, what fictitious force will I observe?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
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TheEngineer

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Re: Flat Earth VS General Relativity
« Reply #269 on: February 17, 2016, 11:14:28 AM »
I'm not saying Gravity is a real force, I am saying that it is a real interaction between mass-energy-momentum that gives rise to a fictitious force. For the Engineer to claim otherwise,
Did I?


"I haven't been wrong since 1961, when I thought I made a mistake."
        -- Bob Hudson