Question about an image...

Hello, I found an image that gives the impression that the earth is not flat, can you explain to me how you can believe that it is flat after this image please?

Hello, I found an image that gives the impression that the earth is not flat, can you explain to me how you can believe that it is flat after this image please?

they claim pillars arent alligned

Quote from: LS on March 24, 2024, 02:48:56 PM

Hello, I found an image that gives the impression that the earth is not flat, can you explain to me how you can believe that it is flat after this image please?

they claim pillars arent alligned

However, looking, we see that they are aligned...

[image]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/702920399201107988/1221924708069543966/flerfbs.jpg?ex=66145910&is=6601e410&hm=cbb9cfd11edc42d08c717b334ecde74ea390f5159dca813e06927e3196bffee3& [image/]

i downloaded this while ago and it seems to be best they can produce

sorry

sorry

Yes, nothing stops the dishonesty of FEers.
Where now they use different camera angles to pretend it isn't straight.
Notice how the pick a point off to the right of the base?
That is from a particular view of the camera.
But then for the one they use to pretend it is off, it is a different view, where the top of the pylon is off to the left?

Quote from: Code-Beta1234 on March 25, 2024, 01:54:23 PM

sorry

Yes, nothing stops the dishonesty of FEers.
Where now they use different camera angles to pretend it isn't straight.
Notice how the pick a point off to the right of the base?
That is from a particular view of the camera.
But then for the one they use to pretend it is off, it is a different view, where the top of the pylon is off to the left?

exactly

sorry

And yet there is the dip of the horizon…


https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water


https://flatearth.ws/pontchartrain

Thank you very much, I now understand!

But on the other hand I don't understand the bottle thing... On the plane, if you lower the bottle then it will be level with the horizon.  Can you explain more about this?

But on the other hand I don't understand the bottle thing... On the plane, if you lower the bottle then it will be level with the horizon.  Can you explain more about this?

Horizon dip is lower than the actual horizon observed at eye level. This happens only on spherical earth. Why? I don't know, I'm just paraphrasing the website.

But on the other hand I don't understand the bottle thing... On the plane, if you lower the bottle then it will be level with the horizon.  Can you explain more about this?

You line up the water level with your eye sight.
Lowering it won't make it level with the horizon.
Due to perspective, it will make it tilt up.
You can get it to a point where you can pretend it lines up, but that would just be dishonest photography.
If Earth was flat and the horizon was made due to perspective, you would always be able to draw a line along the horizon, and one along the water level and have them cross at some point.

I find this a poor but better image:


The water is a simple way to get a level reference (which doesn't actually work in a plane if it is manoeuvring at all)
But you can use other references as well.
Based upon how perspective works, you can extrapolate this level line out.
If you have multiple such lines, you can find the point of intersection, the vanishing point.
Which also tells you an angle of elevation of 0 degrees.

Because Earth is round, the horizon is below this.
When close to sea level, it is marginally below, so much so your eyes couldn't tell.
When high up, it gets quite noticable.

Quote from: LS on March 26, 2024, 04:29:45 AM

But on the other hand I don't understand the bottle thing... On the plane, if you lower the bottle then it will be level with the horizon.  Can you explain more about this?

You line up the water level with your eye sight.
Lowering it won't make it level with the horizon.
Due to perspective, it will make it tilt up.
You can get it to a point where you can pretend it lines up, but that would just be dishonest photography.
If Earth was flat and the horizon was made due to perspective, you would always be able to draw a line along the horizon, and one along the water level and have them cross at some point.

I find this a poor but better image:


The water is a simple way to get a level reference (which doesn't actually work in a plane if it is manoeuvring at all)
But you can use other references as well.
Based upon how perspective works, you can extrapolate this level line out.
If you have multiple such lines, you can find the point of intersection, the vanishing point.
Which also tells you an angle of elevation of 0 degrees.

Because Earth is round, the horizon is below this.
When close to sea level, it is marginally below, so much so your eyes couldn't tell.
When high up, it gets quite noticable.

But it is clear that looking at your images gives the impression that the earth is disk

Moreover flatearth.ws is a site that makes fun of flat artists so I have no confidence in them

Quote from: JackBlack on March 26, 2024, 01:14:26 PM

Quote from: LS on March 26, 2024, 04:29:45 AM

But on the other hand I don't understand the bottle thing... On the plane, if you lower the bottle then it will be level with the horizon.  Can you explain more about this?

You line up the water level with your eye sight.
Lowering it won't make it level with the horizon.
Due to perspective, it will make it tilt up.
You can get it to a point where you can pretend it lines up, but that would just be dishonest photography.
If Earth was flat and the horizon was made due to perspective, you would always be able to draw a line along the horizon, and one along the water level and have them cross at some point.

I find this a poor but better image:


The water is a simple way to get a level reference (which doesn't actually work in a plane if it is manoeuvring at all)
But you can use other references as well.
Based upon how perspective works, you can extrapolate this level line out.
If you have multiple such lines, you can find the point of intersection, the vanishing point.
Which also tells you an angle of elevation of 0 degrees.

Because Earth is round, the horizon is below this.
When close to sea level, it is marginally below, so much so your eyes couldn't tell.
When high up, it gets quite noticable.

But it is clear that looking at your images gives the impression that the earth is disk

Moreover flatearth.ws is a site that makes fun of flat artists so I have no confidence in them

What in hade's name is a "flat artist" rofl? Or was it autocorrect?


Anyways, I don't understand the horizon thingy either or why it proves earth is round, so hopefully someone else comes along to help you and me understand.

Quote from: LS on March 27, 2024, 05:43:51 AM

Quote from: JackBlack on March 26, 2024, 01:14:26 PM

Quote from: LS on March 26, 2024, 04:29:45 AM

But on the other hand I don't understand the bottle thing... On the plane, if you lower the bottle then it will be level with the horizon.  Can you explain more about this?

You line up the water level with your eye sight.
Lowering it won't make it level with the horizon.
Due to perspective, it will make it tilt up.
You can get it to a point where you can pretend it lines up, but that would just be dishonest photography.
If Earth was flat and the horizon was made due to perspective, you would always be able to draw a line along the horizon, and one along the water level and have them cross at some point.

I find this a poor but better image:


The water is a simple way to get a level reference (which doesn't actually work in a plane if it is manoeuvring at all)
But you can use other references as well.
Based upon how perspective works, you can extrapolate this level line out.
If you have multiple such lines, you can find the point of intersection, the vanishing point.
Which also tells you an angle of elevation of 0 degrees.

Because Earth is round, the horizon is below this.
When close to sea level, it is marginally below, so much so your eyes couldn't tell.
When high up, it gets quite noticable.

But it is clear that looking at your images gives the impression that the earth is disk

Moreover flatearth.ws is a site that makes fun of flat artists so I have no confidence in them

What in hade's name is a "flat artist" rofl? Or was it autocorrect?


Anyways, I don't understand the horizon thingy either or why it proves earth is round, so hopefully someone else comes along to help you and me understand.

Sorry for "flat artist" it's Google Translate 😅 I wanted to say "people who think the earth is flat" but I find on the contrary that the images of @jackblack suggest that the earth is a disk...

I finally understood @jackblack's explanations.  On the fourth image with the brick wall, we draw the horizontal lines which follow the bricks, then the horizontal lines on the other side, for example: one coming from the fence, one from sea level... We obtain vanishing lines, the intersection of which is the level of the horizon.  As this level is high, it would indicate that the Earth is round.  Indeed, if the Earth is round, on the horizon, it turns downwards.  @everyone, do you think this argument holds water?

Oh now I get it too! Back in 6th grade, my art teacher was talking about vanishing points in one point perspective drawing. So basically the horizon falls off in round earth as opposed to being at eye level in a flat earth.

But what do you mean by "do you think this argument holds water?"

But it is clear that looking at your images gives the impression that the earth is disk

How?
Do you mean a tiny disk where you can see all the way to the edge? Because I thought most people would recognise that is not the case.

What these show is an angle of dip to the horizon. This should not exist if Earth is flat.

If Earth was flat, then these images should show the surface to appear to rise until you reach either the edge of the disk, or it gets to the vanishing point (or due to the atmosphere, it would fade to a blur).

But if Earth is round, you can only see until the point where a line tangent to Earth passes through your eye.

And more damning than this is measuring how this angle of dip changes with altitude.
As you go higher, the horizon gets lower and further away.

But the main point of these images are not to prove Earth is round, but to refute the idea that the horizon is just the vanishing point as some FEers claim.

Moreover flatearth.ws is a site that makes fun of flat artists so I have no confidence in them

Do you mean it makes fun of people that have ridiculous beliefs who wilfully reject reality?
Why should that mean you have no confidence in them?

If you don't trust them, you can go do the experiments yourself.

But on the other hand I don't understand the bottle thing... On the plane, if you lower the bottle then it will be level with the horizon.  Can you explain more about this?

but then it would not be at 0 degrees. It would be at -3 for example relative to horizon

look up "horizon dip angle"

Moreover flatearth.ws is a site that makes fun of flat artists so I have no confidence in them

confidence matters in topics that you dont understand. I would be more inclined to trust some professional than "www .aethertruth. com " on topic of relativity.

but flatearth.ws deals with topics understandable to laymen so...

The key point is a flat plane/disc does not have a horizon, while a large spherical surface does.
So if I climbed a mountain I should be able to see everything that exists on said flat plane if the weather is clear. Like I should be able to see the Rocky mountains from the Sierra Nevadas, but I can't because they're BELOW the HORIZON.

But on the other hand I don't understand the bottle thing... On the plane, if you lower the bottle then it will be level with the horizon.  Can you explain more about this?

The bottle is being used as a level.  The line at the surface of the water in the bottle is a level line.  It would point to the horizon on a flat earth (other than the fact that the plane is flying a few miles above the earth).  On a sphere earth, the earth curves downward, below the level line. 

In theory, for this to be truly accurate, there should be a measurement of the distance to the observed horizon, and the elevation of the aircraft should be considered in relation to the difference seen to the water level. 

Quote from: LS on March 26, 2024, 04:29:45 AM

But on the other hand I don't understand the bottle thing... On the plane, if you lower the bottle then it will be level with the horizon.  Can you explain more about this?

The bottle is being used as a level.  The line at the surface of the water in the bottle is a level line.  It would point to the horizon on a flat earth (other than the fact that the plane is flying a few miles above the earth).  On a sphere earth, the earth curves downward, below the level line. 

In theory, for this to be truly accurate, there should be a measurement of the distance to the observed horizon, and the elevation of the aircraft should be considered in relation to the difference seen to the water level.

I would say that isn't really needed.
The typical claim from FEers is that the horizon rises to eye level. This photo demonstrates that is not the case. So those bits of data aren't needed.

But in general, the question is what is producing the horizon?
For a FE there are 3 general possibilities (ignoring mountains)
1 - The actual edge of the FE. Unless you are close to this edge, the distance would be so great that the altitude is irrelevant. e.g. if you are flying over the US, there is at least 10000 km to the edge. And even if the plane is flying at 10 km altitude, that is an angle of 0.06 degrees, and if you look out the other window, that would go to over 20 000 km. So that wouldn't account for it.
2 - The angular size of objects that far away becomes too small to resolve. This means you should not be able to distinguish between level and the slight dip, because you can't resolve that angle.
3 - The atmosphere blocks the view by blurring the light. This should result in a fade to a blur like on a foggy day, not a clear horizon.

The actual issue with this is that such levelling devices only truly work when there is no significant acceleration. Part of being a good pilot is learning how to have the plane take coordinated turns, where a combination of rudder, pitch and roll results in the apparent direction of down still being to the floor of the aircraft, even if the aircraft has a significant bank angle.

Quote from: gnuarm on April 22, 2024, 11:40:00 PM

Quote from: LS on March 26, 2024, 04:29:45 AM

But on the other hand I don't understand the bottle thing... On the plane, if you lower the bottle then it will be level with the horizon.  Can you explain more about this?

The bottle is being used as a level.  The line at the surface of the water in the bottle is a level line.  It would point to the horizon on a flat earth (other than the fact that the plane is flying a few miles above the earth).  On a sphere earth, the earth curves downward, below the level line. 

In theory, for this to be truly accurate, there should be a measurement of the distance to the observed horizon, and the elevation of the aircraft should be considered in relation to the difference seen to the water level.

I would say that isn't really needed.

...

The actual issue with this is that such levelling devices only truly work when there is no significant acceleration. Part of being a good pilot is learning how to have the plane take coordinated turns, where a combination of rudder, pitch and roll results in the apparent direction of down still being to the floor of the aircraft, even if the aircraft has a significant bank angle.

The solution to this concern is to make the same measurement from a fixed point on a mountain. 

But, I was not trying to address the validity of the measurement itself.  I was only trying to explain the role of the water bottle.  I will leave the flat Earth vs. Globe Earth discussion to the rest of you.