Islam - The religion of peace

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Death-T

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #210 on: October 20, 2010, 04:57:54 PM »

Actually he raised some valid points against Islam. A few examples:

1. Islam teaches polygamy. In fact the Koran is a text based entirely on this immoral doctine of men having multiple wives. Muhammad for example had 11 wives.
2. Islam teaches sexual immorality. The Koran states Muhammad had sexual intercourse with over 20 woman (including women outside his marriages, including several of his owned female slaves).
3. Islam teaches child marriage (sick). Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old. The Hadith, explains that he had slept with Aisha while she had childrens ''dolls'' in her bed.

None of these facts are distortions from ''anti-Islam websites'', all these things you can read in the Koran and Hadith. Also the usual liberal argument ''well all religions teach the same thing'' is a fallacy here. The Bible is strongly against polygamy (and those that practiced it were punished i.e King Solomon), is against sexual immorality (it promotes no sex outside marriage) and thirdly is certianly against underage marriage or any other as disgusting things.

Oh relly?

I'm also kinda hazy about polgamy being immoral.... I personally don't believe in it, but immoral?
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berny_74

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #211 on: October 20, 2010, 05:14:11 PM »

Actually he raised some valid points against Islam. A few examples:

1. Islam teaches polygamy. In fact the Koran is a text based entirely on this immoral doctine of men having multiple wives. Muhammad for example had 11 wives.
2. Islam teaches sexual immorality. The Koran states Muhammad had sexual intercourse with over 20 woman (including women outside his marriages, including several of his owned female slaves).
3. Islam teaches child marriage (sick). Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old. The Hadith, explains that he had slept with Aisha while she had childrens ''dolls'' in her bed.

None of these facts are distortions from ''anti-Islam websites'', all these things you can read in the Koran and Hadith. Also the usual liberal argument ''well all religions teach the same thing'' is a fallacy here. The Bible is strongly against polygamy (and those that practiced it were punished i.e King Solomon), is against sexual immorality (it promotes no sex outside marriage) and thirdly is certianly against underage marriage or any other as disgusting things.

Oh relly?

I'm also kinda hazy about polgamy being immoral.... I personally don't believe in it, but immoral?

Somebody better tell the mormons that.
And wait - how many wives did Solomn have?  King David?  Where in the bible does it say anything against polygamy?

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #212 on: October 20, 2010, 06:30:55 PM »
Can you define sexual immorality for me please?

Anything sexual outside of heterosexual monogamous marriage is sexually immoral.

There are immoral and moral religions, Islam is strongly immoral when it comes to sexuality or family values.
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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #213 on: October 20, 2010, 06:35:25 PM »

Actually he raised some valid points against Islam. A few examples:

1. Islam teaches polygamy. In fact the Koran is a text based entirely on this immoral doctine of men having multiple wives. Muhammad for example had 11 wives.
2. Islam teaches sexual immorality. The Koran states Muhammad had sexual intercourse with over 20 woman (including women outside his marriages, including several of his owned female slaves).
3. Islam teaches child marriage (sick). Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old. The Hadith, explains that he had slept with Aisha while she had childrens ''dolls'' in her bed.

None of these facts are distortions from ''anti-Islam websites'', all these things you can read in the Koran and Hadith. Also the usual liberal argument ''well all religions teach the same thing'' is a fallacy here. The Bible is strongly against polygamy (and those that practiced it were punished i.e King Solomon), is against sexual immorality (it promotes no sex outside marriage) and thirdly is certianly against underage marriage or any other as disgusting things.

Oh relly?

I'm also kinda hazy about polgamy being immoral.... I personally don't believe in it, but immoral?

And three of those examples cited are about Solomon or David. Solomon was punished for his polygamy, and David repented.

In sharp contrast, the Koran teaches polygamy is something Allah approves of and encourages Muslims to have as many wives as possible.
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Death-T

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #214 on: October 20, 2010, 07:20:23 PM »

And three of those examples cited are about Solomon or David. Solomon was punished for his polygamy, and David repented.

In sharp contrast, the Koran teaches polygamy is something Allah approves of and encourages Muslims to have as many wives as possible.

Can you provide the parts of the Bible that outline the causation of said punishment and David's repenting?
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berny_74

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #215 on: October 20, 2010, 07:33:07 PM »

And three of those examples cited are about Solomon or David. Solomon was punished for his polygamy, and David repented.

In sharp contrast, the Koran teaches polygamy is something Allah approves of and encourages Muslims to have as many wives as possible.

Can you provide the parts of the Bible that outline the causation of said punishment and David's repenting?

I thought David was punished for having an affair with another man's wife?  And subsequently sent said man off to his death in war.  And Solomon had a whole litany of vices.

The whole thing is rather moot though - there are bad christians and good christians and bad muslims and good muslims.  I don't go around and scream at all the christians for being bigoted tee-to-tallers because they don't fullfill my personal beliefs.  I wonder if you actually have been to an "Islamic Country" and seen how they live?

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Lorddave

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #216 on: October 20, 2010, 08:53:18 PM »
This thread has officially gone to shit.
That's because you tried to demonstrate how islam and all the people who follow it are hate mongering and evil.  You were then shot down by almost every member of this forum, called a bigot, and only responded with copy/paste arguments that you didn't even check or understand.

Dont even know when you lost a debate.

Correct.  You don't.

I'm wondering if he is a troll. Nobody is this thick and capable of using a computer.

Actually he raised some valid points against Islam. A few examples:

1. Islam teaches polygamy. In fact the Koran is a text based entirely on this immoral doctine of men having multiple wives. Muhammad for example had 11 wives.
2. Islam teaches sexual immorality. The Koran states Muhammad had sexual intercourse with over 20 woman (including women outside his marriages, including several of his owned female slaves).
3. Islam teaches child marriage (sick). Muhammad married Aisha when she was six years old. The Hadith, explains that he had slept with Aisha while she had childrens ''dolls'' in her bed.

None of these facts are distortions from ''anti-Islam websites'', all these things you can read in the Koran and Hadith. Also the usual liberal argument ''well all religions teach the same thing'' is a fallacy here. The Bible is strongly against polygamy (and those that practiced it were punished i.e King Solomon), is against sexual immorality (it promotes no sex outside marriage) and thirdly is certianly against underage marriage or any other as disgusting things.

How do you define what is immoral?
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Eddy Baby

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #217 on: October 21, 2010, 01:51:11 AM »
Can you define sexual immorality for me please?

Anything sexual outside of heterosexual monogamous marriage is sexually immoral.

There are immoral and moral religions, Islam is strongly immoral when it comes to sexuality or family values.

I wish I could just make stuff up like that and then believe it. These morals are clearly Christian. A Muslim would obviously disagree.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #218 on: October 21, 2010, 03:57:49 AM »
I will add, however, that I believe your attitude toward this matter to be significantly more dangerous to civilization than Wardogg's.


I'm not sure I agree. Whatever you think of 17's views, he at least questions the world around him and doesn't simply go with the herd. Even with respect to his faith, 17 seems pretty critical of large sections and aspects of Christianity or Christian institutions. I also get the feeling that he views religion as largely personal and doctrine as something which can be interpreted or disagreed upon without the need for violence or coercian.


I would certainly be critical of religion in general, but I'd take a Christian like 17 over a Republican like Wardogg any day (though I'd be interested to hear more about his views on political violence).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 05:22:11 AM by Lord Wilmore »
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #219 on: October 21, 2010, 05:09:49 AM »
Can you define sexual immorality for me please?

Anything sexual outside of heterosexual monogamous marriage is sexually immoral.

There are immoral and moral religions, Islam is strongly immoral when it comes to sexuality or family values.

That is very clearly what is objectively immoral.  They aren't just your own personal, subjective judgments at all.

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Benocrates

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #220 on: October 21, 2010, 08:04:38 AM »
I will add, however, that I believe your attitude toward this matter to be significantly more dangerous to civilization than Wardogg's.


I'm not sure I agree. Whatever you think of 17's views, he at least questions the world around him and doesn't simply go with the herd. Even with respect to his faith, 17 seems pretty critical of large sections and aspects of Christianity or Christian institutions. I also get the feeling that he views religion as largely personal and doctrine as something which can be interpreted or disagreed upon without the need for violence or coercian.


I would certainly be critical of religion in general, but I'd take a Christian like 17 over a Republican like Wardogg any day (though I'd be interested to hear more about his views on political violence).

I agree to a point, but my experience of 17 is that he is a fervent believer in some Orthodox Christian sect. I don't know the name of it, but from I understand a lot of his arguments stem from a particular interpretation of the bible.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #221 on: October 21, 2010, 08:17:17 AM »
Yeah, but fervent belief does not equate to making your faith political. As far as I know, 17 has many non-orthodox friends and even some non-christian friends. With regard to his own beliefs he may be uncompromising, but one cannot demand that people compromise their beliefs. As long as he holds to that himself, I think he's doing better than Wardogg.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #222 on: October 21, 2010, 08:33:27 AM »

And three of those examples cited are about Solomon or David. Solomon was punished for his polygamy, and David repented.

In sharp contrast, the Koran teaches polygamy is something Allah approves of and encourages Muslims to have as many wives as possible.

Can you provide the parts of the Bible that outline the causation of said punishment and David's repenting?

http://www.giveshare.org/family/polygamy.html
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #223 on: October 21, 2010, 11:11:50 AM »
I consider denial of the threat of jihadism and indifference to Islamic theocracy to currently be much more malignant than Wardogg's own knee-jerk reactionism and uninteresting brand of doltish bigotry.


I'm not sure 17 denied the threat posed by jihadism (though in itself it is minimal - more on this later). I think he asserted the right of Iraqi insurgents to rebel against a foreign occupier, which is something very different. This is an especially pertinent distinction given that at the height of the insurgency, most of the militants were not Islamic jihadists, as any well-informed U.S. commander wil tell you. Most of them were just Sunni rebels who felt excluded and oppressed by the American administration. It was their decision to switch sides and work with the Americans (to prevent what they considered to be the dangerous and increasing influence of Al Qaeda-stlye extremists) which turned the tide in Iraq. Most of the 'Sons of Iraq' are former-insurgents, so to label all insurgents as Islamic Jihadists is a gross over-simplification by any measure.


I don't necessarily agree with 17 on all (or any) of these points, but my views are probably closer to his than to Wardogg's. Specifically, I would have a fairly low-opinion of organisations like Hezbollah, which could be regarded as having some legitimacy when founded, but is now (in my opinion) a destablising influence in Lebannon which acts in a manner contrary to its original aims. Nevertheless, it is a statement of fact that Hezbollah has provided for the people of southern Lebannon in a way that the government has failed to do, and anyone who dismisses this out of hand has no real understanding of middle-east politics. For example, Palestinian culture is traditionally one of the most secular in the Arab world (along with Iraq's), yet Hamas has huge support among parts of the population. Why? Because they have filled a political and social vaccum left by the Israelis and the Palestinian Authority. I consider Hamas to be a morally reprehensible organisation due to its deliberate targeting of civilians, but there can be no doubt it has supported Gazans far better than anyone else.


Militant Islam is a problem, but it's a far more complex problem than most people think. In a region dominated by neo-colonialism and inequality, it promises the dejected and neglected self-determination and a more just society. The means are extremely questionable, but the goals are not, and the sooner westerners realise this, the better. Just today, the United States confirmed a $60 billion arms deal with Saudi Arabia, a regime as corrupt, brutal and oppressive as any of the other Middle Eastern states America has taken issue with. Yet instead of invasion or political and economic isolation, they are getting advanced weapons. As long as the U.S. continues to support such regimes, militant Islam will appeal to the disenfranchised masses of the Middle East. Viewing it as political realism is at least consistent, but bashing revolutionary Islam whilst simultaneously giving people good reason to support it is totally hypocritical. Politicians have to be hypocrites, but you don't.


The cause and solution to the problem of militant Islam lies in the socio-economic system of the developed world. Militant Islam should not pose a threat to the western world, but our support of autocratic and corrupt regimes does. The former flourishes because of the latter, and if it wasn't militant Islam, it would be something else (e.g. the Arab nationalism of the 50s, 60s and 70s).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 11:22:56 AM by Lord Wilmore »
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Marcus Aurelius

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #224 on: October 21, 2010, 11:16:51 AM »
That is one of the best posts I have ever read.

Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #225 on: October 21, 2010, 11:24:21 AM »
That horrible person that called for south park animators to be murdered (because he recently "realized" somehow that Islam is the true religion and that everything in the Qu'ran is true etc etc.) turned out to have some connections to fake bombings and has been arrested - I think he will be given jail time. I think this is great news for those of us who don't think it's okay to go around demanding people be murdered.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #226 on: October 21, 2010, 12:12:06 PM »
I would recommend that you read over 17's posts in this thread again. I can think of no better way to clarify the situation.


Like I said, I disagree with 17, but I don't think his posts are as extreme as they sound - 17 is just up-front and forthright when expressing his opinion, however left of centre. Ultimately, he is asserting the right of the occupied/oppressed to use violence to acheive self-determination, something I think most people in this topic would support given a different context. I also get the feeling that Wardogg is more extreme than he lets on, perhaps even to himself. My disagreement with 17 centres on means rather than ends, whereas I'm not sure I would agree with Wardogg about either.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Death-T

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #227 on: October 21, 2010, 03:21:35 PM »
http://www.giveshare.org/family/polygamy.html

Fail.

Notice how David was punished for taking a wife by killing her husband..... do you happen to know your commandments by the way?

The Bible never states that Rachel was killed by God because he didn't want him to have two wifes, that's an interpretation. It's never stated and she dies from child birth.

The part about the "LAW" was a classic case of omission - the entire passage being -

" 17:15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
 
17:16  But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
 
17:17  Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold."

- Wow.... when you read the whole thing it takes on an entirely different meaning, don't it?
 
That website was the work of someone who embraces an intrepretation of the Bible and has a hard-on for the caps feature.
You have shown no proof that the Bible condemns polygamy. Try again?
" Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. " - Albert Einstein

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Vindictus

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #228 on: October 21, 2010, 04:52:18 PM »
Letting the Bible define your own morals is like having the TV guide define your political views.

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Lorddave

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #229 on: October 21, 2010, 04:54:15 PM »
Letting the Bible define your own morals is like having the TV guide define your political views.

Which happens.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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Lorddave

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #230 on: October 21, 2010, 06:21:35 PM »
I agree with Wilmore.  17's views may be hard to accept but he presents them in more of a "This is what I believe" than "This is right and you're wrong".  Attitude makes all the difference.

It reminds me of a news story I heard several years ago.  It talked about Iraq's Sunni and Shiite population before and after the fall of Saddam.  Before, they regarded each other as "misguided", which kept the peace for the most part.  There wasn't any strong hatred between the groups.  At least as far as communities go.  Politically I can't say.

Once the government fell, the attitudes changed to one of "They're the enemy".  Why this happened I do not remember but the differences between War and 17 remind me of that news report.  War regards everyone who isn't with him as "The enemy" while 17 simply sees them as "misguided".

At least that's how I see it.
You have been ignored for common interest of mankind.

I am a terrible person and I am a typical Blowhard Liberal for being wrong about Bom.

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17 November

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #231 on: October 22, 2010, 03:25:49 PM »
... Wardogg is more extreme than he lets on ...

An affected modesty (or two-facedness) is more characteristic of western neo-conservatives than it is of muslims or even slavs.

My disagreement with 17 centres on means rather than ends, whereas I'm not sure I would agree with Wardogg about either.

The same can be said of Martin Luther King's difference with Malcolm X or of Mahatma Ghandi's key difference with Subhas Chandra Bose.  I do not dislike Ghandi, but the utter collapse of the British Empire in India in the mid-1940's had nothing to do with Ghandi.  It was a direct result of the spread of knowledge in India of Bose's actions during the war.  The show trial of Bose's men in 1946 backfired so badly that it turned out to be the death blow of the Britain's Empire.  Everyone's emotions were stirred so deeply about what Bose had managed to accomplish against the British that Clement Attlee decided the British Empire in India was no longer sustainable and withdrew. 

Bose is not well known outside of India because corporate controlled mainstream media prefer to ignore or demonize historical figures like Leon Trotsky or Subhas Chandra Bose whose legacy poses a threat to the survival of its power.  To his credit, Martin Luther King indicated that he was quite aware that the media liked to use him as a pawn because he did not advocate violence which is why the British government honored Ghandi as a model Indian for others.  In his famous anti-Vietnam war speech, he angrily stated that the same media which praises you for advocating non-violence towards Jim Crow but WILL CURSE AND DAMN YOU when you advocate non-violence towards little brown Vietnamese children.


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17 November

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #232 on: October 22, 2010, 04:04:38 PM »
Besides, they're going after the wrong people.

Really? How so?

I was referring especially to muslims.  The so-called war on terror is primarily a war against muslims, and it is the current manifestation of a misguided western policy that dates to the crusades.

The main reason I think it misses the point is spiritual.  From the time of Mohammed to now is the era of Ishmaelite power - a fulfillment of the promise which the Archangel Gabriel gave to Hagar (Ishmael's mother) in the Book of Genesis.  Although islamic power has generally declined since the battle of Vienna circa 1696, it has not been eclipsed, and it never will until Christians thoroughly repent and purify their own selves.  I believe that God gave Mohammed and islam political prosperity NOT because He condones their religion, but because He hates the sin of Christians.  The George Bush crusader method will always fail as long as Christians themselves remain impure.  For this reason, I am actually partial to muslim politics generally.  An ancient greek proverb says "It is better to live under the crescent of islam than the tiara of the pope.

Several prophecies of the Byzantine apocalyptic condition state that Istanbul will one day be invaded by a massive force of "Christians" but the Ishmaelites will withdraw to safety and the city will be taken without a fight.  The Ishmaelites will be subdued only AFTER a Christian civil war in which every sinner in western civilization is annihilated TO THE MAN.  A small remnant of Christians will afterwards conquer asia, and islamic power will forever cease.  At that time, the muslims will be divided into three parts:  one third will convert to Orthodox Christianity, one third will die, and one third will flee to the "land of burnt faces."  A period of peace and prosperity will follow for several decades with a government headquarted at Constantinople.

The threat policy makers should concentrate upon is our own depraved nature.  A repentance and return to genuine Christian tradition and practice (Christian tradition which was ancient, universal, and constituted a consensus) should be the objective rather than killing muslims which is a policy destined to fail. 

"Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."   Matthew 7:5

That post made me quite upset. What a silly thing to believe, seeing as it makes no sense, and, even if it did, isn't practically viable.

It is practical.  Aside from the implication to repent and avoid hell which will infinitely prove the most valuable lesson of all, this view once accepted as a futuristic fact is invaluable in correctly understanding historical processes.  From 1919 to 1922, many greeks blunderously invaded Turkey partly because these prophecies were grossly misinterpreted since they clearly indicate that western civilization will first be annihilated before islam will perish.  The government of modern Greece since the 1820's has always been a decadent right-wing creation of British foreign policy and so was their misguided invasion of Turkey.  These greek speaking eastern Romans who mistakenly thought they were reestablishing the Eastern Roman empire actually only facilitated French and British penetration further eastwards at the expense of muslims.  The greek revolt against the muslim Turks in the 1820's was a mistake and constituted the apostasy of Eastern Orthodox Christians in favor of western error.

The prophecy above is also practical for understanding history if one views the historical and modern underclasses of peasants and proletarists as descendents of Romans who were conquered by Franks from whom most western kings and ruling classes are descended.  The French revolution was  a revolt of Gallo-Roman underclasses against Frankish oppressors.  Maximilien Robespierre is a true patriot and hero for decapitating the Frankish king Louis XVI whose propagandists ever since have cast Robespierre as a terrorist. 

When asked what he thought of the French revolution, Mao Tse Tung's foreign minister Chou En Lai answered "It is too early to tell."


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Crustinator

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #233 on: October 23, 2010, 01:17:06 PM »
The so-called war on terror is primarily a war against muslims, and it is the current manifestation of a misguided western policy that dates to the crusades.

My ladybird book of middle-eastern politics says that "the west" did something before in the middle east. It was called The Crusades. We are now doing something in the middle east. Or at least we are saying the words "middle east" and "muslim". Therefore this is the same as the crusades.

LOL. Tell us more plox.

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17 November

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #234 on: October 23, 2010, 09:22:30 PM »
this is the same as the crusades.

LOL. Tell us more plox.




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Vindictus

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #235 on: October 23, 2010, 10:42:54 PM »
Funny pictures constitute proof?




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17 November

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #236 on: October 23, 2010, 10:56:28 PM »

That is awesome.  I never liked western clothing anyway.
As far as american presidents go, he's rather enlightened.
I'd vote for him.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #237 on: October 23, 2010, 11:00:40 PM »

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Vindictus

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #238 on: October 23, 2010, 11:04:22 PM »
That one is better.

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Mykael

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Re: Islam - The religion of peace
« Reply #239 on: October 23, 2010, 11:07:54 PM »
I'd support Obama if he could remedy the Executive power mishandlings taking place, like he fucking said he would.