A hermit comes down from the mountain...

A hermit comes down from the mountain and says to you -

"I have lived in a cave my entire life. I know nothing of this world. I trust only my own senses and reasoning.
Tell me, what shape is the earth and what can I observe that I will know this to be true?"

What do you tell him?

I will tell him to go back into the cave, the flat earth is dark and full of terrors.

Go north, watch the rotate around the North Star, the go south and watch the stars spin round the southern axis point.
Then load up on bacon, beans and hard tack, go back to your cave and ignore the world, it's full of crazy fools.

A hermit comes down from the mountain and says to you -

"I have lived in a cave my entire life. I know nothing of this world. I trust only my own senses and reasoning.
Tell me, what shape is the earth and what can I observe that I will know this to be true?"

What do you tell him?

I'd ask how the fuck he can speak English, and ask him what other languages he knows?

Go north, watch the rotate around the North Star, the go south and watch the stars spin round the southern axis point.

Would that show the shape of the earth? Couldn't it just be the sky moving?

I would ask him if he's hungry before I sent him off on an adventure.

Would that show the shape of the earth? Couldn't it just be the sky moving?

The shape is different to what is moving.

This visual observation doesn't show if Earth is spinning or the sky is spinning, but if done well enough can show that Earth is round.

A hermit comes down from the mountain and says to you -

"I have lived in a cave my entire life. I know nothing of this world. I trust only my own senses and reasoning.
Tell me, what shape is the earth and what can I observe that I will know this to be true?"

What do you tell him?

Generally speaking if you wish to know something about a subject you yourself know little or nothing about you would go and consult an expert on that subject rather than asking some random person. Walk through any city or town and you will see that very thing in operation. Everything from hairdressers to psychiatrists and other medical practitioners each advertising their own particular expertise. While you can cut your own hair people who generally want to it done properly and with style choose one of these expert services. If you were having a baby sure you could ask your next door neighbour to lend a hand but if you were looking to have a birth that safeguarded your and your baby’s health you would seek the assistance of a whole range of experts who are each skilled in certain areas and have certified knowledge  that allows them to make both rational and safe decisions. It only sensible to take this approach.
Your question should be treated in the same way. You wish to know about things that are cosmic in nature, then the choice is clear ask someone who is an expert in that area such as an astronomer. That would be your best bet for receiving an accurate and validated answer that is backed by the position and qualifications they hold. You would think that would be it, then think again.
The elephant in the flat earth room does not allow for that kind of approach for that particular question. That question alone is ‘ring fenced’ barring any recourse to expert help. They wish it only be answered by the rank ignorant who give ignorant answers. In the flat earth world ignorance rules and anything that may shine a knowledgable light on that ignorance is severely frowned on.
I could also say to you if you wished for confirmation of any expert answer to go watch the latest footage from the Starship launch of last week it will reveal all and dismiss much of what flat earthers hold to be true.



That elephant however gets angry when such pieces of everyday knowledge are offered as it bursts their illusionary bubble in one pop, which of course they don’t like.
Your choice is either to ask some ignorant individual from whom you will most likely revive an ignorant response or ask someone who has detailed and accredited knowledge of that area you wish to know about.

A hermit comes down from the mountain and says to you -

"I have lived in a cave my entire life. I know nothing of this world. I trust only my own senses and reasoning.
Tell me, what shape is the earth and what can I observe that I will know this to be true?"

What do you tell him?

I tell him the shape of the Earth is the last thing he should be concerned about and he'll work it out in time.

Quote from: Cameron 1964 on March 21, 2024, 07:20:27 PM

Go north, watch the rotate around the North Star, the go south and watch the stars spin round the southern axis point.

Would that show the shape of the earth? Couldn't it just be the sky moving?

Well explain how a rotating plane or a rotating sky above a flat plane has a central rotation axis observable above and below the equator?

Quote from: Copper Knickers on March 22, 2024, 07:16:25 AM

Would that show the shape of the earth? Couldn't it just be the sky moving?

The shape is different to what is moving.

This visual observation doesn't show if Earth is spinning or the sky is spinning, but if done well enough can show that Earth is round.

So, how might observations of the sky show the earth is round? Convince the hermit !

Quote from: Copper Knickers on March 21, 2024, 03:39:38 PM

A hermit comes down from the mountain and says to you -

"I have lived in a cave my entire life. I know nothing of this world. I trust only my own senses and reasoning.
Tell me, what shape is the earth and what can I observe that I will know this to be true?"

What do you tell him?

Generally speaking if you wish to know something about a subject you yourself know little or nothing about you would go and consult an expert on that subject rather than asking some random person. Walk through any city or town and you will see that very thing in operation. Everything from hairdressers to psychiatrists and other medical practitioners each advertising their own particular expertise. While you can cut your own hair people who generally want to it done properly and with style choose one of these expert services. If you were having a baby sure you could ask your next door neighbour to lend a hand but if you were looking to have a birth that safeguarded your and your baby’s health you would seek the assistance of a whole range of experts who are each skilled in certain areas and have certified knowledge  that allows them to make both rational and safe decisions. It only sensible to take this approach.
Your question should be treated in the same way. You wish to know about things that are cosmic in nature, then the choice is clear ask someone who is an expert in that area such as an astronomer. That would be your best bet for receiving an accurate and validated answer that is backed by the position and qualifications they hold. You would think that would be it, then think again.
The elephant in the flat earth room does not allow for that kind of approach for that particular question. That question alone is ‘ring fenced’ barring any recourse to expert help. They wish it only be answered by the rank ignorant who give ignorant answers. In the flat earth world ignorance rules and anything that may shine a knowledgable light on that ignorance is severely frowned on.
I could also say to you if you wished for confirmation of any expert answer to go watch the latest footage from the Starship launch of last week it will reveal all and dismiss much of what flat earthers hold to be true.



That elephant however gets angry when such pieces of everyday knowledge are offered as it bursts their illusionary bubble in one pop, which of course they don’t like.
Your choice is either to ask some ignorant individual from whom you will most likely revive an ignorant response or ask someone who has detailed and accredited knowledge of that area you wish to know about.

The hermit may not have made the best choice of whom to ask, but so be it. Let's see what the answers are...

How would you persuade the hermit of your choice of shape of earth ?

Quote from: Copper Knickers on March 22, 2024, 07:16:25 AM

Quote from: Cameron 1964 on March 21, 2024, 07:20:27 PM

Go north, watch the rotate around the North Star, the go south and watch the stars spin round the southern axis point.

Would that show the shape of the earth? Couldn't it just be the sky moving?

Well explain how a rotating plane or a rotating sky above a flat plane has a central rotation axis observable above and below the equator?

Without knowing the nature of the sky, it could appear any which way. It's not constrained to be a rotating this or that. It could be a gigantic LED screen. What can the hermit observe to tell him that it's not?

You tell the hermit he is living on Earth which is a huge sphere and he can prove it to himself by selecting a direction and walking. On his walk he will notice the peaks of very high mountains appearing on his horizon, which as he gets nearer, become taller and taller, until he stands at the base of very high mountains. When looking behind, he will observe tall objects such as buildings, pine tree forests, towers, and also mountains, disappearing from the ground up. This can only happen if Earth is a sphere.

Hmm, interesting. I don't see any flat earthers weighing in on this thread. This should be a piece of cake to them!

A hermit comes down from the mountain and says to you -

"I have lived in a cave my entire life. I know nothing of this world. I trust only my own senses and reasoning.
Tell me, what shape is the earth and what can I observe that I will know this to be true?"

What do you tell him?

I tell him:
"Look around everywhere! Does the earth look spherical to you?"

So, how might observations of the sky show the earth is round? Convince the hermit !

Can I move them around?
If so, quite simple, take a look at the night sky, ideally using a pair of cameras, and observe the north and south celestial pole.
From multiple locations.
Then move around keeping on of these to one side.
We also observe that they are always 180 degrees apart.
And by moving north and south we see it changes apparent position up and down, without distortion.

Then we can show it can't be flat, by starting by drawing a point, then drawing out some of these lines, and showing they aren't meeting at the other point, but then cutting the paper on either side of the line, and bringing the lines together in another point, showing it is round.

It could be a gigantic LED screen. What can the hermit observe to tell him that it's not?

Going down this path, we can just through out all forms of evidence.
Anything they see could just be a gigantic LED screen, which people secretly move around.

Quote from: Copper Knickers on March 25, 2024, 02:54:09 PM

It could be a gigantic LED screen. What can the hermit observe to tell him that it's not?

Going down this path, we can just through out all forms of evidence.
Anything they see could just be a gigantic LED screen, which people secretly move around.

That's a good point of course, but I'd say limited to observations of the sky since its nature can't readily be ascertained from the ground. Observations of stuff on the ground can be checked out more thoroughly.

Can I move them around?

Absolutely, within the limits of practicality.

If so, quite simple, take a look at the night sky, ideally using a pair of cameras, and observe the north and south celestial pole.
From multiple locations.
Then move around keeping on of these to one side.
We also observe that they are always 180 degrees apart.
And by moving north and south we see it changes apparent position up and down, without distortion.

Okay, I agree the celestial poles are a good strategy whatever the nature of the sky (LED or otherwise) since they can be observed to be stationary from any given location. Plotting change of elevation of a celestial pole against north-south distance travelled would give a linear relationship on a round earth, but non-linear on a flat earth.

Quote from: Copper Knickers on March 21, 2024, 03:39:38 PM

A hermit comes down from the mountain and says to you -

"I have lived in a cave my entire life. I know nothing of this world. I trust only my own senses and reasoning.
Tell me, what shape is the earth and what can I observe that I will know this to be true?"

What do you tell him?

I tell him:
"Look around everywhere! Does the earth look spherical to you?"

The hermit replies:

"Inland it is difficult to tell, but when I go to the coast I see the oceans have a convex surface. So yes, the earth looks spherical to me. Thank you for your help."

Quote from: EarthIsRotund on March 26, 2024, 02:48:53 AM

Quote from: Copper Knickers on March 21, 2024, 03:39:38 PM

A hermit comes down from the mountain and says to you -

"I have lived in a cave my entire life. I know nothing of this world. I trust only my own senses and reasoning.
Tell me, what shape is the earth and what can I observe that I will know this to be true?"

What do you tell him?

I tell him:
"Look around everywhere! Does the earth look spherical to you?"

The hermit replies:

"Inland it is difficult to tell, but when I go to the coast I see the oceans have a convex surface. So yes, the earth looks spherical to me. Thank you for your help."

I reply:

"Well, since you think that the earth looks spherical, then the earth is indeed spherical. There, you have your answer now. Would you like anything else for your journey?"

Quote from: Timeisup on March 23, 2024, 01:41:23 AM

Quote from: Copper Knickers on March 21, 2024, 03:39:38 PM

A hermit comes down from the mountain and says to you -

"I have lived in a cave my entire life. I know nothing of this world. I trust only my own senses and reasoning.
Tell me, what shape is the earth and what can I observe that I will know this to be true?"

What do you tell him?

Generally speaking if you wish to know something about a subject you yourself know little or nothing about you would go and consult an expert on that subject rather than asking some random person. Walk through any city or town and you will see that very thing in operation. Everything from hairdressers to psychiatrists and other medical practitioners each advertising their own particular expertise. While you can cut your own hair people who generally want to it done properly and with style choose one of these expert services. If you were having a baby sure you could ask your next door neighbour to lend a hand but if you were looking to have a birth that safeguarded your and your baby’s health you would seek the assistance of a whole range of experts who are each skilled in certain areas and have certified knowledge  that allows them to make both rational and safe decisions. It only sensible to take this approach.
Your question should be treated in the same way. You wish to know about things that are cosmic in nature, then the choice is clear ask someone who is an expert in that area such as an astronomer. That would be your best bet for receiving an accurate and validated answer that is backed by the position and qualifications they hold. You would think that would be it, then think again.
The elephant in the flat earth room does not allow for that kind of approach for that particular question. That question alone is ‘ring fenced’ barring any recourse to expert help. They wish it only be answered by the rank ignorant who give ignorant answers. In the flat earth world ignorance rules and anything that may shine a knowledgable light on that ignorance is severely frowned on.
I could also say to you if you wished for confirmation of any expert answer to go watch the latest footage from the Starship launch of last week it will reveal all and dismiss much of what flat earthers hold to be true.



That elephant however gets angry when such pieces of everyday knowledge are offered as it bursts their illusionary bubble in one pop, which of course they don’t like.
Your choice is either to ask some ignorant individual from whom you will most likely revive an ignorant response or ask someone who has detailed and accredited knowledge of that area you wish to know about.

The hermit may not have made the best choice of whom to ask, but so be it. Let's see what the answers are...

How would you persuade the hermit of your choice of shape of earth ?

Life consists of making a whole range of decisions every day. How to make this one is no different from any other.
Accepting advice on a subject you know nothing about from another party can be difficult. This is when their standing, experience, qualifications and credibility come into play. The word which many on this forum hate for some inexplicable reason is ‘expert’ which is odd. If you have a bad tooth and are in pain would you seek help from any random person or would you consult a dentist who is expert in all things to do with teeth. This problem is no different despite what some would have you believe. I had a friend just recently who had contracted a very rare medical condition as a result of a viral infection that had serious neurological ramifications. To get an accurate diagnosis and treatment an expert in neuroscience had to be consulted as only they had the required knowledge.
The question your hermit has is no different. If he wishes a definitive answer then an expert in that field should be consulted. In this case an astronomer. Teeth problems consult a dentist. Neurological problems consult a neurologist. Problems relating to the earth and its place in the cosmos consult an astronomer. Its pretty simple and pretty obvious.

Life consists of making a whole range of decisions every day. How to make this one is no different from any other.
Accepting advice on a subject you know nothing about from another party can be difficult. This is when their standing, experience, qualifications and credibility come into play. The word which many on this forum hate for some inexplicable reason is ‘expert’ which is odd. If you have a bad tooth and are in pain would you seek help from any random person or would you consult a dentist who is expert in all things to do with teeth. This problem is no different despite what some would have you believe. I had a friend just recently who had contracted a very rare medical condition as a result of a viral infection that had serious neurological ramifications. To get an accurate diagnosis and treatment an expert in neuroscience had to be consulted as only they had the required knowledge.
The question your hermit has is no different. If he wishes a definitive answer then an expert in that field should be consulted. In this case an astronomer. Teeth problems consult a dentist. Neurological problems consult a neurologist. Problems relating to the earth and its place in the cosmos consult an astronomer. Its pretty simple and pretty obvious.

I know you might find thinking for yourself too challenging and need your nurse to tell you what to eat for breakfast, but I don't need to consult an expert for every decision in my life.
The shape of Earth is not a complex neurological problem which requires a medical expert and lots of instruments.

Quote from: Timeisup on March 29, 2024, 11:09:59 AM

Life consists of making a whole range of decisions every day. How to make this one is no different from any other.
Accepting advice on a subject you know nothing about from another party can be difficult. This is when their standing, experience, qualifications and credibility come into play. The word which many on this forum hate for some inexplicable reason is ‘expert’ which is odd. If you have a bad tooth and are in pain would you seek help from any random person or would you consult a dentist who is expert in all things to do with teeth. This problem is no different despite what some would have you believe. I had a friend just recently who had contracted a very rare medical condition as a result of a viral infection that had serious neurological ramifications. To get an accurate diagnosis and treatment an expert in neuroscience had to be consulted as only they had the required knowledge.
The question your hermit has is no different. If he wishes a definitive answer then an expert in that field should be consulted. In this case an astronomer. Teeth problems consult a dentist. Neurological problems consult a neurologist. Problems relating to the earth and its place in the cosmos consult an astronomer. Its pretty simple and pretty obvious.

I know you might find thinking for yourself too challenging and need your nurse to tell you what to eat for breakfast, but I don't need to consult an expert for every decision in my life.
The shape of Earth is not a complex neurological problem which requires a medical expert and lots of instruments.

You really are a most stupid and ignorant man who foolishly thinks he has the answers to everything!
Did you not read the question?
No one said the shape of the earth is a complex neurological problem!

Why does the question about the earth have such a ridiculous standing in your mind?

Do you perform your own dentistry? Of if you require some sort of medical scan do you go off and make your own MRI or CT scanner?

Why are you so obsessed with this particular question to do with shape of the earth thinking that it.    can only be determined by personal experience when the answer is freely available staring one straight in the face. Only a fool such as yourself would ignore such sources.

The fact that flat earthers believe in some cock and bull global conspiracy is irrelevant and has no bearing whatsoever on the reality of the situation. If you wish to buy into their madness then feel free as you appear to be well qualified.

You really are a most stupid and ignorant man who foolishly thinks he has the answers to everything!

And straight off the bat with insults and projection.
If you want to see the most stupid and ignorant man, go look in a mirror. You might need an expert to tell you what that is, I'll let you go find one.

No one said the shape of the earth is a complex neurological problem!

Yet you decided to compare it to one, just like the arrogant moron you are.

Why does the question about the earth have such a ridiculous standing in your mind?

It doesn't.
I recognise experts aren't needed for it. But you want to keep pretending we can only know by just blindly accepting what an expert says.

Do you perform your own dentistry? Of if you require some sort of medical scan do you go off and make your own MRI or CT scanner?

And here you go again.
Do you think the shape of Earth is ANYTHING like these?

Why are you so obsessed with this particular question

I'm not.
But you are on a FE forum, to discuss the shape of Earth.

thinking that it.    can only be determined by personal experience

I don't.
I point out that it CAN BE determined from personal experience.
Why are you so obsessed with it, and your cult of "experts" that you think the only possible way to know it is to just blindly accept what an expert says?
Why do you reject the idea of any other possible path to knowledge?
Why do you continually compare to such drastically different things?
Only a fool such as yourself would pretend expert knowledge is needed.

The mad one here is you.

Enrol in an education program that allows you to pursue a career in space exploration & go see for yourself. This way is considerably cheaper than purchasing a ticket with your own funds.

Enrol in an education program that allows you to pursue a career in space exploration & go see for yourself. This way is considerably cheaper than purchasing a ticket with your own funds.

You're asking too much out of guy that doesn't even know that the earth is round

Quote from: Copper Knickers on March 25, 2024, 02:45:29 PM

The hermit may not have made the best choice of whom to ask, but so be it. Let's see what the answers are...

How would you persuade the hermit of your choice of shape of earth ?

Life consists of making a whole range of decisions every day. How to make this one is no different from any other.
Accepting advice on a subject you know nothing about from another party can be difficult. This is when their standing, experience, qualifications and credibility come into play. The word which many on this forum hate for some inexplicable reason is ‘expert’ which is odd. If you have a bad tooth and are in pain would you seek help from any random person or would you consult a dentist who is expert in all things to do with teeth. This problem is no different despite what some would have you believe. I had a friend just recently who had contracted a very rare medical condition as a result of a viral infection that had serious neurological ramifications. To get an accurate diagnosis and treatment an expert in neuroscience had to be consulted as only they had the required knowledge.
The question your hermit has is no different. If he wishes a definitive answer then an expert in that field should be consulted. In this case an astronomer. Teeth problems consult a dentist. Neurological problems consult a neurologist. Problems relating to the earth and its place in the cosmos consult an astronomer. Its pretty simple and pretty obvious.

With respect, my aims with the OP seem to have passed you by. My concern was not that the hermit should necessarily get the 'right' answer. Rather, the hermit was a device by which to elicit from the good folk here some explanations of how they might argue for their chosen earth shape using direct observation and reasoning, without third-party evidence.

Stop avoiding the question with technicalities in the wording. It's there is nothing that we can observe about earth that can't be explained by FE theory. While this is also true about a theoretical round earth, it comes down to our own senses. What do we observe about earth? Do we see earth as a ball or as a plate? It's obvious, our own eyes can show us that the earth is not if fact round but flat.

Stop avoiding the question with technicalities in the wording. It's there is nothing that we can observe about earth that can't be explained by FE theory. While this is also true about a theoretical round earth, it comes down to our own senses. What do we observe about earth? Do we see earth as a ball or as a plate? It's obvious, our own eyes can show us that the earth is not if fact round but flat.

LOCALLY flat. Ever heard of the word? Locally. The earth could be a sphere or a frisbee, but if it is large enough compared to our range of vision, then it will always seem that the earth is LOCALLY flat.

Thorin, you've just been owned. Can you prove the locally flattish earth on which you stand or float, is not part of the external surface of a giant globe?

If you can't, (and I know you can't), then it is possible and from all the evidence, probable, the overall shape of the locally flat earth you stand on, is in fact a globe, isn't it?

Quote from: Timeisup on March 31, 2024, 02:45:16 PM

You really are a most stupid and ignorant man who foolishly thinks he has the answers to everything!

And straight off the bat with insults and projection.
If you want to see the most stupid and ignorant man, go look in a mirror. You might need an expert to tell you what that is, I'll let you go find one.

Quote from: Timeisup on March 31, 2024, 02:45:16 PM

No one said the shape of the earth is a complex neurological problem!

Yet you decided to compare it to one, just like the arrogant moron you are.

Quote from: Timeisup on March 31, 2024, 02:45:16 PM

Why does the question about the earth have such a ridiculous standing in your mind?

It doesn't.
I recognise experts aren't needed for it. But you want to keep pretending we can only know by just blindly accepting what an expert says.

Quote from: Timeisup on March 31, 2024, 02:45:16 PM

Do you perform your own dentistry? Of if you require some sort of medical scan do you go off and make your own MRI or CT scanner?

And here you go again.
Do you think the shape of Earth is ANYTHING like these?

Quote from: Timeisup on March 31, 2024, 02:45:16 PM

Why are you so obsessed with this particular question

I'm not.
But you are on a FE forum, to discuss the shape of Earth.

Quote from: Timeisup on March 31, 2024, 02:45:16 PM

thinking that it.    can only be determined by personal experience

I don't.
I point out that it CAN BE determined from personal experience.
Why are you so obsessed with it, and your cult of "experts" that you think the only possible way to know it is to just blindly accept what an expert says?
Why do you reject the idea of any other possible path to knowledge?
Why do you continually compare to such drastically different things?
Only a fool such as yourself would pretend expert knowledge is needed.

The mad one here is you.

Tell you what Jack why don’t you and your bunch of ‘crusaders against reality’ take yourself down to Florida and have a look at a hole in the roof of a house down there along with the piece of space junk that made it! Talk to the owners and hear what they have to say.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/apr/02/space-trash-florida-home

Having a debate to get to the core of a question is well and good. The problem with you lot is you totally ignore reality and pretend a whole section of it, despite the day to day evidence does not exist. That’s not debate. Its crass stupidity and you are the one clearly supporting it.

What you are part of is a group of mad people who live in a pretend world. You pretend along with them to keep your bizarre non debate debate staggering along.

You guys love to pretend that the last 100 years didn’t happen, with especially the here and now banned from any discussion. You reference people from 2000 years ago along with the bible as though they are of any relevance.

You are your mates are classic mad denialists as it fits you all like a glove.

Denial is defined as a cognitive and emotional process by which a person avoids facing aspects of reality, especially when it is difficult to assimilate the details of reality into one's current thinking.

You keep saying this is a FE forum.
This is indeed true. It’s what you are implying that makes you mad. What you are implying is reality and truth needs to be left outside.

You are implying certain aspects of reality must not be mentioned for fear of upsetting the natives. Why is that Jack?

In your world both that hole in that Florida home’s roof and the piece of space junk that made it do not exist! That fact clearly makes you the unchallenged mad one you being the denislist.